A problem with LumberJocks.com is there is so darn much content is seems
very difficult to extend any criticism without worrying about hurting
someone's feelings. I've spent good time wring several thoughtful comments
only to decide to erase them and say something nice. Evidently that's the
norm, hundreds (thousands?) of "atta-boys" and "atta-girls" along with many
projects that, IMHO, don't merit publication. Yet, the site seems to want
to grow, grow, grow! On the other hand, some folks there publish some very
fine projects too... ::: vent over!!! :::
Bill
On Jan 31, 5:12=A0pm, "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:
> A problem with LumberJocks.com is there is so darn much content is seems
> very difficult to extend any criticism without worrying about hurting
> someone's feelings. =A0I've spent good time wring several thoughtful comm=
ents
> only to decide to erase them and say something nice. =A0Evidently that's =
the
> norm, hundreds (thousands?) of "atta-boys" and "atta-girls" along with ma=
ny
> projects that, IMHO, don't merit publication. =A0Yet, the site seems to w=
ant
> to grow, grow, grow! =A0On the other hand, some folks there publish some =
very
> fine projects too... =A0 ::: vent over!!! :::
>
> Bill
Well if you are an advanced amateur or professional, then sometimes
the work does seem poor. Though think back to some of the first pieces
that you have done and how much you have or haven't progressed in
skills. If you didn't get good praise for even a poor piece, would you
have continued on doing any woodworking? Probably not. I know that my
first pieces are far from perfect but an encouraging word would help.
Allen
On Feb 2, 4:08=A0pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm sure I have visited some of those
> sites before, but I will go back systematically and reassess. =A0I have
> had more time for this recently since so much of the current emphasis in
> this forum is political in nature.
It comes and goes. You don't see much of it on most other forums or
sites as almost all now are moderated. This is actually the only
woodworking site I know of that is still a free-for-all.
And although most sites are moderated, many still have problems with
petty sniping. But it is the internet so I guess that goes without
saying. Everybody is a somebody on the net.
>=A0Maybe the phenomenon is analogous to
> the professionals you mentioned who prefer not to "talk shop" in their
> spare time? =A0
Well, the last thing I want to hear is more work. I am a guy. 99% of
the time, when I am through for the day, I make my schedule and call
list out for the next day, make sure all materials are on board for
the tasks at hand and everyone knows where they are going.
(Including me!)
Then I shut down. No more.
> I think that one of the "secrets to success" is to be a
> part of several groups, like we are in "real life"--or is this one of
> those groups? =A0: ) =A0I think the answer is yes.
Yup. My other interests are so many I can hardly participate on a
specific forum anymore, so I mostly read. It is odd though, to notice
the similarities between all the sites (regardless of subject) and
forums.
Every forum that specializes has a group of members that think they
have discovered a brand new craft, art form, or medium, and their own
experiences are so limited in other vocations or crafts that they
really believe it. Kinda fun, but the snobbery that comes with it
sometimes is annoying.
There is almost always a venerated "Big Daddy" member, as well as
brands that are untouchable by any kind of criticism.
On one of the more popular sites for woodworking, there is a finishing
section. Information has been dispensed there that is great, but a lot
is partially incorrect, outdated, or in some cases flat wrong. Rather
than risk the group wrath (pointless on me, really....) I just sigh
and keep on reading. No telling how many projects have had needless
steps or required a re-do because of bad information.
Yet, when the poster returns and says some method suggested by the
accepted guru doesn't work, the group jumps on the poster, not the
guru. They all simply parrot what he tells them because they don't go
out and try all his methods, and since his batting average is pretty
good they go with what he says.
And you don't cross the guys with really high post counts, either.
They post a lot, so they must know a lot.... right? Surrrre they
do.... And there is a pecking order of seniority that cracks me up as
well. They get indignant when someone challenges them if they have
less time/seniority/posts on that particular forum. They must be
thinking they work for the government.
And there are a couple of other reason you don't see "pros" on those
sites.
Most guys I know have finally reached this point: You can't know it
all. And the more you learn, the more you realize the less you know.
The other reason is that most people don't listen. If you tell them
how to do something, and someone tells them how to do it another way
that sounds easier to them, they will do it that way. Worse, when you
post an answer, people argue with it even if they are the ones that
asked the question.
I liken this to peeing in a fan. No real point in it, and it only
annoys the hell out of you.
I have found that it is good to keep your fingers in a lot of pies and
help the folks that really seem to need it.
I am off to read my Wilderness and Survival Skills forum, then to the
Traditional Folding Knife forums, and then to check on the barbecue
guys. Should be some new thoughts going on at the BBQ sites (I got a
kick ass wing recipe there last year!) with the Super Bowl coming up.
Robert
On Feb 1, 7:25=A0am, Chris Friesen <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 01/31/2010 09:03 PM, allen476 wrote:
>
> > Well if you are an advanced amateur or professional, =A0then sometimes
> > the work does seem poor. Though think back to some of the first pieces
> > that you have done and how much you have or haven't progressed in
> > skills. If you didn't get good praise for even a poor piece, would you
> > have continued on doing any woodworking?
>
> Personally I'd rather have some useful criticism along with the praise
> to help improve the next piece. =A0Others may just be looking for kudos.
>
> Chris
I've seen little-to-no resistance to *constructive criticism* that was
phrased in a courteous, civil, and helpful manner, on LJ.com.
I have, however, seen people forget that -- on the other side of the
internet -- is a genuine human being. When that happens, and civility
is lost, then -- like all media -- the conversation degrades.
Bill: my experience couldn't be more different than yours. I welcome
constructive criticism, on my projects, from grown-ups.
And I get it.
On Feb 1, 10:27=A0am, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> Neil Brooks wrote:
> > Bill: my experience couldn't be more different than yours. =A0I welcome
> > constructive criticism, on my projects, from grown-ups.
>
> > And I get it.
>
> Neil,
>
> Maybe you misunderstood my point. =A0It is just that the kudos/criticism
> ratio is just high, high, high. =A0I did not say no one knew what to do
> with constructive criticism or that none was offered. =A0But it's
> monotonous to read 30 "nice job!" comments when there is evidently more
> that could be said. =A0The other day, after reading about 25 nice job
> comments on an item, =A0I inquired, "Well, what about putting a finish on
> it?". =A0My comment was appropriately received, but what the hel*!
>
> Bill
Ah.
Okay.
That's a valid point, but ... LJ is a VERY active site.
It's tough to strike a balance between giving kudos where you feel
kudos are deserved (a very quick proposition, in terms of time
commitment), and taking the five or ten minutes (not everybody is a
fast typist) to give a thoughtful and helpful critique.
If people spent more time on each project, then ... they'd either have
to look at/comment on fewer projects OR increase the overall time on
the site -- something lots of us are trying not to do ;-)
But ... I do take your point.
On Feb 1, 4:28=A0pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> > If you would you feel better I can give you the email address of my
> > sister-in-law's husband. (-;
>
> > No matter what you make, do, buy, or find in a trash can. =A0He will fi=
nd
> > something wrong with it, know how to build it better, knows somebody wh=
o
> > has done it better, cheaper, less time, etc.
>
> > Larry C
>
> He sounds thorough. ; )
Sounds like an asshat.
LJ serves a specific audience, and it is a monitored, moderated forum
to make sure it stays that way.
It is not an open-doored free for all replete with long sanctimonious
political diatribes, screeching about the environment, or long copied/
pasted Google recitations on who screwed up the economy.
It is set up for the beginning to pretty talented wood worker, and
seemingly to me, almost none are full time professionals.
They are there to enjoy the woodworking experience by sharing with one
another their work and experiences. They support one another, and
even if they are biting their respective tongues when they say it,
they are supportive of one another.
So you can either enjoy that experience, or move to a guild site where
they will criticize every tool you use, and every joint you make, and
every design you render. Some folks there are nice, but IME most are
arrogant know-it-alls that have the luxury of turning out one piece a
year after their day job.
Our local "fine woodworking club" is like that. In a city that has a
metropolitan area of almost 1.3 million people, they have about 6 - 7
attendees at their once a month meetings. They routinely run off
everyone that wants to join and learn since they are are "experts".
They actually think that the reason some of the newbies bring in
something for their show and tell is simply to get the group criticism
burned into them. Worse... these guys aren't that good.
The new guys would be willing to take a bit of advice and would gladly
take it, but the "everyone is an expert" stuff gets old fast.
I personally don't like to pander, but as when we have our
woodturner's club meeting, I can find something good in everything
that comes my way. Most of the time, folks will ask ways to better
their work, or they are relieved to know that you may have made the
same mistakes at one time or another.
If someone tells me they want my unvarnished opinion, I will do my
best to give it to them. Unless I can off something in a constructive
way, I have found it best to keep my mouth shut. At some of the
meetings and as well as with my friends I am asked different
woodworking and finishing questions, and like so many, they guys that
ask are just looking for a pat on the back.
They don't do professional quality work, they know it, and they also
know that they may not ever want to put into their projects what it
would take to turn out the "best" work. Thankfully I may be asked
about things here and there from other woodworkers, but not much that
would make me feel uncomfortable coming up with a comment or two,
mostly presented as nothing more than an observation, not as a
criticism.
No one knows everything, and no one had done everything, and no one is
the best at all aspects of anything. I try to keep that in mind all
the time, especially when I am asked to comment on someone else's
work.
I read LJ on occasion but don't participate. I like the fact that
they lift each other up with encouragement. It hauls in the members
for that very reason, and that is it is a safe place to enjoy your
hobby.
Enjoy LJ for what it is, just a happy place with some very creative
and talented people on board. If you feel like you have outgrown it,
it has no reason to change for you, so just move on.
Robert
On Feb 1, 11:03=A0pm, "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:
> What sites are worth a visit? =A0I go to sawmillcreek.org sometimes.
> This newsgroup is the only "forum" I have been regularly posting in.
> Somehow I've become a tool junkie...and a bit of a tool snob....and someh=
ow
> this site has contributed to that! =A0: )
You can go to the woodweb.com and peruse their database. NO pictures
of your projects or pictures of the grandkids holding their new
woodworking gift, no atta-boys!, nothing of the sort. While an
expression of gratitude is expressed from time to time when someone
helps, that's all the sentiment there is on the site.
It is moderated, so no political stuff. Actually, unless you are
relating a personal experience that pertains exactly on topic to the
thread you are responding to.... it will get deleted by the mods. No
anecdotes, no funny stories, etc. It is mostly professionals that use
it as a searchable database.
Another site that looks interesting is woodworkingtalk.com. It seems
they attract all kinds. In the finishing forum, I do wish they would
quit calling TUNG oil tounge, toungue, or tunge oil. That aside,
there seems to be all manner of skill levels there.
I don't know that you will find a "professional" site that will like
to see a lot of projects since we all know what they look like. I
enjoy seeing some of the pics I see here as they are different from
the run of the mill things I make for clients.
As a comment on that, almost all of the "professionals" (that could
just mean full time in some cases!) I know don't talk shop when we
aren't at work. We talk about cooking (one of my favorites),
gardening (our southern first season is getting ready to start)
hunting, barbecuing, what the kids are up to, etc. We don't talk shop
unless one of us has run into a problem and knows someone in the group
has more expertise in a certain area than the others and he needs some
help. No one wants to hear about routine construction stuff except to
make sure we are all busy.
You will see that on woodweb.com. A question is asked, it is
answered, and everyone goes away.
I think the forums are like shoes. You just try them on until you
find a pair that fits.
Robert
On 01/31/2010 09:03 PM, allen476 wrote:
> Well if you are an advanced amateur or professional, then sometimes
> the work does seem poor. Though think back to some of the first pieces
> that you have done and how much you have or haven't progressed in
> skills. If you didn't get good praise for even a poor piece, would you
> have continued on doing any woodworking?
Personally I'd rather have some useful criticism along with the praise
to help improve the next piece. Others may just be looking for kudos.
Chris
"Neil Brooks" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:499679b1-65a6-4256-a571-8f5d8e5a7554@g28g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 1, 10:27 am, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> Neil Brooks wrote:
> > Bill: my experience couldn't be more different than yours. I welcome
> > constructive criticism, on my projects, from grown-ups.
>
> > And I get it.
>
> Neil,
>
> Maybe you misunderstood my point. It is just that the kudos/criticism
> ratio is just high, high, high. I did not say no one knew what to do
> with constructive criticism or that none was offered. But it's
> monotonous to read 30 "nice job!" comments when there is evidently more
> that could be said. The other day, after reading about 25 nice job
> comments on an item, I inquired, "Well, what about putting a finish on
> it?". My comment was appropriately received, but what the hel*!
>
> Bill
Bill
If you would you feel better I can give you the email address of my
sister-in-law's husband. (-;
No matter what you make, do, buy, or find in a trash can. He will find
something wrong with it, know how to build it better, knows somebody who has
done it better, cheaper, less time, etc.
Larry C
"allen476" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:0a8f93da-2c5b-4ccb-9250-440674b25976@k22g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 31, 5:12 pm, "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:
> A problem with LumberJocks.com is there is so darn much content is seems
> very difficult to extend any criticism without worrying about hurting
> someone's feelings. I've spent good time wring several thoughtful comments
> only to decide to erase them and say something nice. Evidently that's the
> norm, hundreds (thousands?) of "atta-boys" and "atta-girls" along with
> many
> projects that, IMHO, don't merit publication. Yet, the site seems to want
> to grow, grow, grow! On the other hand, some folks there publish some very
> fine projects too... ::: vent over!!! :::
>
> Bill
Well if you are an advanced amateur or professional, then sometimes
the work does seem poor. Though think back to some of the first pieces
that you have done and how much you have or haven't progressed in
skills. If you didn't get good praise for even a poor piece, would you
have continued on doing any woodworking? Probably not. I know that my
first pieces are far from perfect but an encouraging word would help.
Allen
Well, if all people are looking for a kind word, they can post their work
there.
Personally, I think I'd place a higher value on criticism that would make my
next efforts that much more productive or make me a better designer.
Criticism can still be doled out with a kind and encouraging word. The ratio
of encouraging words to criticism is very very high--so high that in many
cases
they make for pointless reading, except perhaps for the single ego we wish
to
nurture. Your points are well-taken and I haven't had my last thought about
this.
I've learned a lot at that site too.
Bill
Neil Brooks wrote:
> Bill: my experience couldn't be more different than yours. I welcome
> constructive criticism, on my projects, from grown-ups.
>
> And I get it.
Neil,
Maybe you misunderstood my point. It is just that the kudos/criticism
ratio is just high, high, high. I did not say no one knew what to do
with constructive criticism or that none was offered. But it's
monotonous to read 30 "nice job!" comments when there is evidently more
that could be said. The other day, after reading about 25 nice job
comments on an item, I inquired, "Well, what about putting a finish on
it?". My comment was appropriately received, but what the hel*!
Bill
Larry C wrote:
>
> "Neil Brooks" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:499679b1-65a6-4256-a571-8f5d8e5a7554@g28g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 1, 10:27 am, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Neil Brooks wrote:
>> > Bill: my experience couldn't be more different than yours. I welcome
>> > constructive criticism, on my projects, from grown-ups.
>>
>> > And I get it.
>>
>> Neil,
>>
>> Maybe you misunderstood my point. It is just that the kudos/criticism
>> ratio is just high, high, high. I did not say no one knew what to do
>> with constructive criticism or that none was offered. But it's
>> monotonous to read 30 "nice job!" comments when there is evidently more
>> that could be said. The other day, after reading about 25 nice job
>> comments on an item, I inquired, "Well, what about putting a finish on
>> it?". My comment was appropriately received, but what the hel*!
>>
>> Bill
>
> Bill
>
> If you would you feel better I can give you the email address of my
> sister-in-law's husband. (-;
>
> No matter what you make, do, buy, or find in a trash can. He will find
> something wrong with it, know how to build it better, knows somebody who
> has done it better, cheaper, less time, etc.
>
>
> Larry C
He sounds thorough. ; )
I think there is an economic principle concerning "marginal value" at
work in LJ's situation. I would simply guess that the marginal value
from each user's perspective may be negative for each new member they
pick up past 15,000. Wait until they approach 25,000 members and see
(they went from about 7,000 to 15,000 last year).
Bill
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:630f7302-66f1-4167-a3db-9f311b22d9a7@r19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 1, 4:28 pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> > If you would you feel better I can give you the email address of my
> > sister-in-law's husband. (-;
>
> > No matter what you make, do, buy, or find in a trash can. He will find
> > something wrong with it, know how to build it better, knows somebody who
> > has done it better, cheaper, less time, etc.
>
> > Larry C
>
> >He sounds thorough. ; )
> Sounds like an asshat.
I was being nice! : )
>Enjoy LJ for what it is, just a happy place with some very creative
>and talented people on board. If you feel like you have outgrown it,
>it has no reason to change for you, so just move on.
> Robert
You made a very thoughtful reply, Robert. I appreciate everything you wrote.
I've just been serious about LJ for about 5 or 6 weeks, up til then
I visited only when someone posted a link. It is true that I expect it
to be more than "a happy place", but it also admittedy true that I've
already
recieved more there than I have paid for in admission. They already
have enough projects up to keep me thinking for months and months...
and they must publish dozens of new ones every day!!! The whole
matter seems to be a leading-edge lesson in sociology... Someday, someone
will write a book about this stuff.
Actually, I have found some really good blogs at LJ related to various
sort of projects. Those seem to be rich sources of info. The projects
have the potential to be (too), but I have disappointedly found them to be
mostly "kudos-fountains." But other times "a picture is worth a thousand
words".
Bill
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:630f7302-66f1-4167-a3db-9f311b22d9a7@r19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
So you can either enjoy that experience, or move to a guild site where
they will criticize every tool you use, and every joint you make, and
every design you render. Some folks there are nice,...
What sites are worth a visit? I go to sawmillcreek.org sometimes.
This newsgroup is the only "forum" I have been regularly posting in.
Somehow I've become a tool junkie...and a bit of a tool snob....and somehow
this site has contributed to that! : )
Bill
[email protected] wrote:
> On Feb 1, 11:03 pm, "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> What sites are worth a visit? I go to sawmillcreek.org sometimes.
>> This newsgroup is the only "forum" I have been regularly posting in.
>> Somehow I've become a tool junkie...and a bit of a tool snob....and somehow
>> this site has contributed to that! : )
>
> You can go to the woodweb.com and peruse their database. NO pictures
> of your projects or pictures of the grandkids holding their new
> woodworking gift, no atta-boys!, nothing of the sort. While an
> expression of gratitude is expressed from time to time when someone
> helps, that's all the sentiment there is on the site.
>
> It is moderated, so no political stuff. Actually, unless you are
> relating a personal experience that pertains exactly on topic to the
> thread you are responding to.... it will get deleted by the mods. No
> anecdotes, no funny stories, etc. It is mostly professionals that use
> it as a searchable database.
>
> Another site that looks interesting is woodworkingtalk.com. It seems
> they attract all kinds. In the finishing forum, I do wish they would
> quit calling TUNG oil tounge, toungue, or tunge oil. That aside,
> there seems to be all manner of skill levels there.
>
> I don't know that you will find a "professional" site that will like
> to see a lot of projects since we all know what they look like. I
> enjoy seeing some of the pics I see here as they are different from
> the run of the mill things I make for clients.
>
> As a comment on that, almost all of the "professionals" (that could
> just mean full time in some cases!) I know don't talk shop when we
> aren't at work. We talk about cooking (one of my favorites),
> gardening (our southern first season is getting ready to start)
> hunting, barbecuing, what the kids are up to, etc. We don't talk shop
> unless one of us has run into a problem and knows someone in the group
> has more expertise in a certain area than the others and he needs some
> help. No one wants to hear about routine construction stuff except to
> make sure we are all busy.
>
> You will see that on woodweb.com. A question is asked, it is
> answered, and everyone goes away.
>
> I think the forums are like shoes. You just try them on until you
> find a pair that fits.
>
> Robert
>
Robert,
Thank you for your suggestions. I'm sure I have visited some of those
sites before, but I will go back systematically and reassess. I have
had more time for this recently since so much of the current emphasis in
this forum is political in nature. Maybe the phenomenon is analogous to
the professionals you mentioned who prefer not to "talk shop" in their
spare time? I think that one of the "secrets to success" is to be a
part of several groups, like we are in "real life"--or is this one of
those groups? : ) I think the answer is yes.
Bill