On Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 11:01:47 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/18/18 1:23 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >> They suck.
> >
> > Yep. Toss my hat in with yours. They worked OK for a short while, but after that they found different ways to fail.
> >
> > The only thing worse they sell in that line at HF? Those fricking squeeze clamps. I purchased carefully in the store, and within one job, all six clamps I bought wouldn't compress //at all//.
> >
> > Robert
> >
>
>
> Oo, oo! You're talking about these, right?
>
> <https://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/clamps/6-inch-ratchet-bar-clamp-spreader-46806.html>
>
> I think at the time they may have been orange.
> I bought 2 and took them back after the handles broke before they'd
> actually hold what they were clamped to. :-)
Ah yes, that satisfying *snap* as the internal mechanism lets go and the handle loses all
tension. BTDT
On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 23:00:23 -0500, woodchucker <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 1/22/2018 2:52 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>> On Sun, 21 Jan 2018 10:45:39 -0500
>> woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Side issue: Amazon is ending the America that I knew. They are in
>>> effect becoming a monopoly, and forcing many stores to close. While I
>>> am not a shopper, nor is my wife, all these empty stores are very
>>> noticeable. This will have repercussions in the building industry.
>>
>>
>> not disagreeing with the symptoms and retail across the board is
>> hurting badly
>>
>> we are heading into a major correction
>>
>> i think many of the empty stores would have become empty without
>> amazon
>>
>True many of the big box stores already did the major damage.
>
>> some questions to ponder
>>
>> who let them operate with out charging sales tax for so long
>> i think they charge sales tax now
>>
>> who let them ship for free
>
>There's no free shipping. Look at the prime price, it's much higher
>sometimes double the price of other vendors through Amazon.
>So prime is often higher priced to cover shipping.
>If you are not a prime customer and reach the free shipping, you are
>paying for it, it's built into the cost.
>
>> someone has to pay for the cost to ship
>> maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
>> bullied into absorbing the costs too
>Now Amazon is considering eliminating them. They have Jets, Trucks.. etc.
It's the "last mile" that they need USPS for (note that FedEx uses the
USPS the same way). They've already set up their distribution centers
near USPS sorting facilities so they can inject the parcels directly
into the processing stream, saving half the shipping.
[email protected] writes:
>On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:55:57 -0800, pyotr filipivich
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Electric Comet <[email protected]> on Mon, 22 Jan 2018
>>11:52:16 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>>>
>>>who let them ship for free
>>>someone has to pay for the cost to ship
>>>maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
>>>bullied into absorbing the costs too
>>
>> Amazon charges $9 a month for "free" shipping.
>
>No, Prime is more than $9 (I think it just went up to $13) but they do
>free shipping on orders greater than $50, also.
Annual prime is $99 ($8.25/mo). The price for monthly did
just go up, but annual stayed the same.
>>
>> They may have cut a deal with UPS/USPS for a discount, but they
>>would not be the first.
>
>Yes, there are reports that they have a real sweetheart deal with
>USPS, subsidized by everyone in the US.
Reports from someone credible? The Drumpf doesn't qualify.
On 1/18/2018 11:16 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 23:23:52 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> They suck.
>>
>> Yep. Toss my hat in with yours. They worked OK for a short while, but after that they found different ways to fail.
>>
>> The only thing worse they sell in that line at HF? Those fricking squeeze clamps. I purchased carefully in the store, and within one job, all six clamps I bought wouldn't compress //at all//.
>
> +1
>
> I wouldn't even buy a 'C' clamp at HF, anymore.
>
Too bad. I bought their quick release C clamp a few years ago. And it
has lasted well. Same as the bessey. I recently bought one for my son
for Christmas, I did have to work on it, to clean up the burrs on the
half nut.. But it's now a very useable clamp. It all depends on what
you need. Some tools are not worth it. Some are the same as others.
Years ago, I picked up a couple of gear head clamps.. they are my best
clamps of that ilk . I think Jorgensen sued them, so they stopped
carrying them.
Then Jorgensen went out of business. Now restarting up again. They are
great.
--
Jeff
-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
> Mine are all out of square. Maybe they've improved them. That would
> be awesome.
> FWIW, if you ask Jet about that, they'll tell you is so they bend
> "into square" under pressure.
> I don't know that's a bullshit answer to cover a faulty product or
> not. But that's what they say.
>
> Nice pencil sharpener!
>
>
Imagine a trapezoid. If your clamps toe in, so the bar is the long side
of the trapezoid, the clamps will have their greatest pressure at the top
of the clamp. That will reduce the chance of the clamp squeezing things
out or slipping as pressure applies. Now if the bar is the short size of
the clamp, the clamp will tend to squeeze things out as pressure is
applied.
They will bend towards square, but the actual angle will be limited by
your work.
Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!
On Sunday, January 21, 2018 at 12:59:24 PM UTC-5, Jack wrote:
>
> I bought 4 of the HF ratcheting squeeze clamps a while ago, under 3
> bucks a piece. I didn't expect them to last, and they didn't. First the
> plastic trigger pin broke, so I drilled the handle and put in a machine
> screw. Then, the plastic end bracket cracked, so I replaced with
> hardwood. Then, the plastic cam in the handle broke, so I beefed it up
> with epoxy.
"This is my favorite hammer. I've replaced the handle three times and the
head twice. Love this thing."
;-)
On Sunday, January 21, 2018 at 6:06:58 PM UTC-6, [email protected] wrote:
> The point was that, even being one-hand squeeze clamps, they can
> deliver a *lot* more force than the subject POS bar clamps. Many here
> are denigrating the squeeze clamps but the Irwin 300s and 600s are
> damn nice clamps. Haven't broken one yet.
I have a lot of "squeeze" or trigger clamps, and I love them. I use them a=
ll the time for all kinds of stuff, they are literally another hand for me.
12 - 16' rip on the sawhorses and your helper is on the scaffold? Clamp on=
e side, rip to the clamp, move the clamp behind you and finish your cut. N=
eed to hold a template in place (like the aforementioned Kreg jig)? Clamp =
it down so that the bars are on the underside. I use them to hold material=
in place to sand, to hold pieces together that I am gluing, hold up long m=
aterial so I can start nailing and work my way to the clamp. The list goes=
on.
You are right that they hold well. Small glue ups are nothing for them, an=
d I use them so much a few of my carpentry-centric contractor friends now c=
arry them.
I have had excellent luck with the DeWalt brand of clamps. Every Christmas =
HD has the 4 pack of large and small clamps on sale as stocking stuffers an=
d buy them when they are on sale whether I need them or not when they mark =
them down after the holiday. Usually get them for about $19 - $20:
https://goo.gl/R9g88f=20
Likewise with Irwin brand which is usually at Lowes, which their clamps is =
one of the few things that Irwin makes that I would buy.
I have a couple of 36" triggers (DeWalt makes a 50"!), but rarely use them.=
If I am going that big I usually drag out all my cabinet clamps as I am i=
n a project.
Robert
On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 9:55:52 PM UTC-5, Doug Miller wrote:
> DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote in news:b2dac27e-90f0-418e-81a3-
> [email protected]:
>
> > They suck.
> >
> Can you be a little more specific?
They really suck.
On 1/20/2018 5:05 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/20/18 3:27 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>> On 1/18/2018 3:34 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 1/18/18 1:53 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>>>> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> On 1/18/18 10:13 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> They suck.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive
>>>>>> clamping tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them.
>>>>>> But they are around a quarter of that.  If one breaks, I can
>>>>>> still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no
>>>>>> problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
>>>>>> simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What's alight duty clamp, though.
>>>>
>>>> Beats me, I see little to no difference between the HF quick release
>>>> clamps and equivalent ones from Jorgenson et al. If anything, I'd
>>>> say the the hf ones - those sold now - are heftier. I use them to
>>>> clamp all manner of things.
>>>>
>>>>> And shouldn't the jaws of even a light duty clamp stay at 90
>>>>> degrees to the bar.
>>>>
>>>> IME, no clamps like this do that because the bar flexes as pressure
>>>> is applied. That's no problem as long as the clamp is properly
>>>> positioned on the work piece; i.e., if you don't try to make the
>>>> clamp head perpendicular to the work.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what you're talking about. The above doesn't make a lot of
>>> sense to me.
>>> Just so it's clear what I'm talking about, here's a picture of the
>>> issue.
>>> http://mikedrums.com/HF_Bar_Clamp.JPG
>>>
>>> The end jaw doesn't even *start out* at 90degrees to the bar with no
>>> pressure at all.
>>> With pressure applied, it gets worse.
>>> This is completely unacceptable and in my mind renders the product
>>> defective as to its sole purpose.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Even if you're only edge banding plywood shelves, if the jaw faces
>>>>> don't stay straight, they will try to pull the banding off the edge
>>>>> of the plywood or at least put uneven pressure (more pressure on
>>>>> the bottom).
>>>>
>>>> See above.
>>>>
>>>>> They just aren't worth the money to me anymore. Not with the
>>>>> hassles that come with using them. About all I can use them for
>>>>> is supplementary clamping after real parallel clamps are in place.
>>>>
>>>> Your money, of course, but at 1/3 the cost or less of others, I'll
>>>> stick with HF.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Been down that road and haven't looked back. Have fun.
>>> I'd rather spend my time making stuff than having to modify tools or
>>> techniques involved in using them just to get them to do their most
>>> basic intended functions.
>>>
>>>
>> Well Mikey, you got a bad one.
>> Here's mine and a Jet for comparison.
>> https://imgur.com/a/LbA3r
>> The jet bend out of shape real fast, the HF is much better. I don't
>> have an issue with them as used. When I need a heavy duty clamp, I
>> take my cabinet masters or Bessey K body's out. Or a pipe clamp.
>>
>
> Mine are all out of square. Maybe they've improved them. That would be
> awesome.
> FWIW, if you ask Jet about that, they'll tell you is so they bend "into
> square" under pressure.
> I don't know that's a bullshit answer to cover a faulty product or not.
> But that's what they say.
>
> Nice pencil sharpener!
>
>
Mine are about 20 years old. The Jet and HF bow way out of square more
like yours when over torqued. It's just why they are light duty.
It has its purpose. Mostly I use the electric one, but sometimes I use
that manual one to chamfer a dowel.
--
Jeff
On 1/20/2018 6:16 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 1/20/2018 4:05 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 1/20/18 3:27 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>> On 1/18/2018 3:34 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 1/18/18 1:53 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>>>>> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> On 1/18/18 10:13 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> They suck.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive
>>>>>>> clamping tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them.
>>>>>>> But they are around a quarter of that.  If one breaks, I can
>>>>>>> still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no
>>>>>>> problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
>>>>>>> simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's alight duty clamp, though.
>>>>>
>>>>> Beats me, I see little to no difference between the HF quick release
>>>>> clamps and equivalent ones from Jorgenson et al. If anything, I'd
>>>>> say the the hf ones - those sold now - are heftier. I use them to
>>>>> clamp all manner of things.
>>>>>
>>>>>> And shouldn't the jaws of even a light duty clamp stay at 90
>>>>>> degrees to the bar.
>>>>>
>>>>> IME, no clamps like this do that because the bar flexes as pressure
>>>>> is applied. That's no problem as long as the clamp is properly
>>>>> positioned on the work piece; i.e., if you don't try to make the
>>>>> clamp head perpendicular to the work.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure what you're talking about. The above doesn't make a
>>>> lot of
>>>> sense to me.
>>>> Just so it's clear what I'm talking about, here's a picture of the
>>>> issue.
>>>> http://mikedrums.com/HF_Bar_Clamp.JPG
>>>>
>>>> The end jaw doesn't even *start out* at 90degrees to the bar with no
>>>> pressure at all.
>>>> With pressure applied, it gets worse.
>>>> This is completely unacceptable and in my mind renders the product
>>>> defective as to its sole purpose.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Even if you're only edge banding plywood shelves, if the jaw faces
>>>>>> don't stay straight, they will try to pull the banding off the edge
>>>>>> of the plywood or at least put uneven pressure (more pressure on
>>>>>> the bottom).
>>>>>
>>>>> See above.
>>>>>
>>>>>> They just aren't worth the money to me anymore. Not with the
>>>>>> hassles that come with using them. About all I can use them for
>>>>>> is supplementary clamping after real parallel clamps are in place.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your money, of course, but at 1/3 the cost or less of others, I'll
>>>>> stick with HF.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Been down that road and haven't looked back. Have fun.
>>>> I'd rather spend my time making stuff than having to modify tools or
>>>> techniques involved in using them just to get them to do their most
>>>> basic intended functions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Well Mikey, you got a bad one.
>>> Here's mine and a Jet for comparison.
>>> https://imgur.com/a/LbA3r
>>> The jet bend out of shape real fast, the HF is much better. I don't
>>> have an issue with them as used. When I need a heavy duty clamp, I
>>> take my cabinet masters or Bessey K body's out. Or a pipe clamp.
>>>
>>
>> Mine are all out of square. Maybe they've improved them. That would
>> be awesome.
>> FWIW, if you ask Jet about that, they'll tell you is so they bend
>> "into square" under pressure.
>> I don't know that's a bullshit answer to cover a faulty product or
>> not. But that's what they say.
>>
>> Nice pencil sharpener!
>>
>>
>
>
> All of these aluminum bar clamps bend easily compared to the steel bar
> clamps.
+1
--
Jeff
On Tuesday, January 23, 2018 at 2:33:49 PM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 09:55:29 -0800
> pyotr filipivich <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Yep. Not sure how it works out practically (am I buying more
> > often because of "free" shopping, vs "saving up purchases" to qualify
> > for "free" shipping.?).
>
>
> i am buying locally
> and if that is not possible i try to buy direct as many manufacturers
> are selling direct now
>
> if none of those are possible than i rethink the need or do without
>
> so far have not had to use the amazon of last resort
nose spite face
On 1/18/2018 5:37 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 10:01:47 AM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> Oo, oo! You're talking about these, right?
>>
>> <https://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/clamps/6-inch-ratchet-bar-clamp-spreader-46806.html>
>>
>> I think at the time they may have been orange.
>> I bought 2 and took them back after the handles broke before they'd
>> actually hold what they were clamped to. :-)
>
> Yessireee... that is the very POS I was talking about. I use a lot of squeeze clamps as I work by myself a lot. I thought I was being smart as they had them for $2.99 or something like that so I bought about 5. Having broken a squeeze clamp, I was able to look into the mechanism of those things. I don't know how they screwed those us so completely, but they sure did.
>
> They weren't worth the time it took to throw them away - ALL of them failed in a week or so.
>
> Robert
>
Yep, took those apart, they didn't have enough plastic in the bosses, so
they cocked to the side and were done. A very simple fix on their
part,useless as they are.
--
Jeff
On Sat, 20 Jan 2018 13:17:40 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Saturday, January 20, 2018 at 12:06:08 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 1/20/18 11:38 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>> > Hopefully you were not checking that clamp with a Harbor Freight square.
>> > ;~)
>> >
>>
>> Don't be silly.
>> If I checked it with a HF square, it would be square. :-p
>
>I can hear Ed McMahon and his "Hiyo!" with a rim shot!
;-)
>I have those same HF clamps and used them for about 3 or 4 glue ups. I spotted one that was out of square right away so I marked it and used it for plywood framing glue ups, etc. Oddly, it held up. The others? Even in light use, after the mentioned 3 or 4 glue ups the little balls inside the clamp head on the end of the screw just fell off.
>
>I don't trust them so I don't use them. I don't know why I don't throw them away.
>
>Sadly, these used to be a great HF product.
>
>https://www.harborfreight.com/10-in-handscrew-clamp-60549.html
>
>I have a couple left that continue to serve and they are just as good as their domestic counterparts. But the newer versions aren't nearly as well made and even some of the wood parts are cracked before purchase. I rarely use that style clamp, but still, I wish I had bought a few more.
Rockler has a really good sale on these, occasionally.
>
> >On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >> They suck.
> >
> >I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive clamping tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them. But they are around a quarter of that. If one breaks, I can still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.
>
> Except that they break when you *need* them, not when they're hanging
> on the wall looking pretty. If I can't trust a tool, I don't want it
> around.
>
> >Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
>
> Bar clamps shouldn't be "light duty". They didn't bend. The damned
> thins broke, with just moderate pressure. My Irwin Quick Clamps will
> do 10x the clamping force. ...and they aren't designed for such.
I hate to say this, but if your joints were made better, you would not need so much force. If you have to jam them together, something is wrong with the joint.
I always heard the rule of thumb for a mortise and tenon was that they should fit so that you could knock them together with your hat.
On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 14:28:13 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
>[email protected] writes:
>>On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:55:57 -0800, pyotr filipivich
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Electric Comet <[email protected]> on Mon, 22 Jan 2018
>>>11:52:16 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>>>>
>>>>who let them ship for free
>>>>someone has to pay for the cost to ship
>>>>maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
>>>>bullied into absorbing the costs too
>>>
>>> Amazon charges $9 a month for "free" shipping.
>>
>>No, Prime is more than $9 (I think it just went up to $13) but they do
>>free shipping on orders greater than $50, also.
>
>Annual prime is $99 ($8.25/mo). The price for monthly did
>just go up, but annual stayed the same.
The phrase was $9 per month. He didn't say it was $99/yr. There is a
difference.
>
>>>
>>> They may have cut a deal with UPS/USPS for a discount, but they
>>>would not be the first.
>>
>>Yes, there are reports that they have a real sweetheart deal with
>>USPS, subsidized by everyone in the US.
>
>Reports from someone credible? The Drumpf doesn't qualify.
Don't be stupid. You won't believe anything I find, so look it up
yourself. It's pretty simple, though I'm sure you'll find some
leftist site that will blame it on Trump. Idiot.
On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> They suck.
I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive clamping tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them. But they are around a quarter of that. If one breaks, I can still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.
Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
On Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 12:15:16 PM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 00:48:11 -0500
> woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > very good. Understand that they are light duty clamps, they are not
> > made to torque down to the max... if you did, you really don't
> > understand them. They are for things that can't handle heavy clamps.
>
> yeah most reviewers may not be using them correctly
And those that comment on the reviewers may never have used them.
>
> and who has not tried to clamp the mistakes out of something once or
> twice
[email protected] on Mon, 22 Jan 2018 20:38:18 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
>On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:55:57 -0800, pyotr filipivich
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Electric Comet <[email protected]> on Mon, 22 Jan 2018
>>11:52:16 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>>>
>>>who let them ship for free
>>>someone has to pay for the cost to ship
>>>maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
>>>bullied into absorbing the costs too
>>
>> Amazon charges $9 a month for "free" shipping.
>
>No, Prime is more than $9 (I think it just went up to $13) but they do
>free shipping on orders greater than $50, also.
My lake of clarity. I pay by the year, so It works out to $9 a
month for me, including tax.
>>
>> They may have cut a deal with UPS/USPS for a discount, but they
>>would not be the first.
>
>Yes, there are reports that they have a real sweetheart deal with
>USPS, subsidized by everyone in the US.
And this is not exactly news.
As I explained to a friend years ago - all you have to do is hired
a couple hundred thousand people, not die, and be able to plunk down
the cash to hire consultants at a $100,000 a shot, and you too can get
all sorts of tax breaks.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
On 1/20/2018 4:05 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/20/18 3:27 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>> On 1/18/2018 3:34 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 1/18/18 1:53 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>>>> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> On 1/18/18 10:13 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> They suck.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive
>>>>>> clamping tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them.
>>>>>> But they are around a quarter of that.  If one breaks, I can
>>>>>> still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no
>>>>>> problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
>>>>>> simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What's alight duty clamp, though.
>>>>
>>>> Beats me, I see little to no difference between the HF quick release
>>>> clamps and equivalent ones from Jorgenson et al. If anything, I'd
>>>> say the the hf ones - those sold now - are heftier. I use them to
>>>> clamp all manner of things.
>>>>
>>>>> And shouldn't the jaws of even a light duty clamp stay at 90
>>>>> degrees to the bar.
>>>>
>>>> IME, no clamps like this do that because the bar flexes as pressure
>>>> is applied. That's no problem as long as the clamp is properly
>>>> positioned on the work piece; i.e., if you don't try to make the
>>>> clamp head perpendicular to the work.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what you're talking about. The above doesn't make a lot of
>>> sense to me.
>>> Just so it's clear what I'm talking about, here's a picture of the
>>> issue.
>>> http://mikedrums.com/HF_Bar_Clamp.JPG
>>>
>>> The end jaw doesn't even *start out* at 90degrees to the bar with no
>>> pressure at all.
>>> With pressure applied, it gets worse.
>>> This is completely unacceptable and in my mind renders the product
>>> defective as to its sole purpose.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Even if you're only edge banding plywood shelves, if the jaw faces
>>>>> don't stay straight, they will try to pull the banding off the edge
>>>>> of the plywood or at least put uneven pressure (more pressure on
>>>>> the bottom).
>>>>
>>>> See above.
>>>>
>>>>> They just aren't worth the money to me anymore. Not with the
>>>>> hassles that come with using them. About all I can use them for
>>>>> is supplementary clamping after real parallel clamps are in place.
>>>>
>>>> Your money, of course, but at 1/3 the cost or less of others, I'll
>>>> stick with HF.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Been down that road and haven't looked back. Have fun.
>>> I'd rather spend my time making stuff than having to modify tools or
>>> techniques involved in using them just to get them to do their most
>>> basic intended functions.
>>>
>>>
>> Well Mikey, you got a bad one.
>> Here's mine and a Jet for comparison.
>> https://imgur.com/a/LbA3r
>> The jet bend out of shape real fast, the HF is much better. I don't
>> have an issue with them as used. When I need a heavy duty clamp, I
>> take my cabinet masters or Bessey K body's out. Or a pipe clamp.
>>
>
> Mine are all out of square. Maybe they've improved them. That would be
> awesome.
> FWIW, if you ask Jet about that, they'll tell you is so they bend "into
> square" under pressure.
> I don't know that's a bullshit answer to cover a faulty product or not.
> But that's what they say.
>
> Nice pencil sharpener!
>
>
All of these aluminum bar clamps bend easily compared to the steel bar
clamps.
On 1/22/2018 9:47 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Monday, January 22, 2018 at 2:52:22 PM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
>> On Sun, 21 Jan 2018 10:45:39 -0500
>> woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Side issue: Amazon is ending the America that I knew. They are in
>>> effect becoming a monopoly, and forcing many stores to close. While I
>>> am not a shopper, nor is my wife, all these empty stores are very
>>> noticeable. This will have repercussions in the building industry.
>>
>>
>> not disagreeing with the symptoms and retail across the board is
>> hurting badly
>>
>> we are heading into a major correction
>
> What kind of correction? In the stock market?
>
> Please explain what you see that leads you to believe that.
>
>>
>> i think many of the empty stores would have become empty without
>> amazon
>
> Is that a standalone statement or is it supposed to be connected to
> your "correction prediction"? If the statements are connected, please
> explain why you think empty stores are going to lead to a "correction",
> after you explain what type of correction you are talking about and why
> you expect one.
>
>>
>> some questions to ponder
>>
>> who let them operate with out charging sales tax for so long
>> i think they charge sales tax now
>
> They've always charged sales tax. It depends on the type of sale and the
> location of where the item is being shipped. When they don't charge tax,
> it's on the purchaser to pay it.
>
They didn't always. NJ forced them to.
> Read up on "use tax".
>
>>
>> who let them ship for free
>> someone has to pay for the cost to ship
>> maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
>> bullied into absorbing the costs too
>
> You obviously don't know how "free shipping" actually works. You, I and
> everyone else who buys stuff on line are paying for it.
+1 yep, nothing is really free.
>
>>
>> not a level playing field for sure and the small business cannot
>> compete when the competition gets subsidized to ship free and gets
>> sweetheart deals to open new warehouses or new hqs
>
> Any business that can prove (well, at least convince them) that they will
> substantially improve the local economy can get a sweetheart deal. Sports
> stadiums, headquarters that brings people to hotels and restaurants, etc.
> I'm not saying it's 100% right, but you can't just blame Amazon when it
> happens with many different types of businesses.
>
--
Jeff
On 1/22/2018 2:52 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Jan 2018 10:45:39 -0500
> woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Side issue: Amazon is ending the America that I knew. They are in
>> effect becoming a monopoly, and forcing many stores to close. While I
>> am not a shopper, nor is my wife, all these empty stores are very
>> noticeable. This will have repercussions in the building industry.
>
>
> not disagreeing with the symptoms and retail across the board is
> hurting badly
>
> we are heading into a major correction
>
> i think many of the empty stores would have become empty without
> amazon
>
True many of the big box stores already did the major damage.
> some questions to ponder
>
> who let them operate with out charging sales tax for so long
> i think they charge sales tax now
>
> who let them ship for free
There's no free shipping. Look at the prime price, it's much higher
sometimes double the price of other vendors through Amazon.
So prime is often higher priced to cover shipping.
If you are not a prime customer and reach the free shipping, you are
paying for it, it's built into the cost.
> someone has to pay for the cost to ship
> maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
> bullied into absorbing the costs too
Now Amazon is considering eliminating them. They have Jets, Trucks.. etc.
>
> not a level playing field for sure and the small business cannot
> compete when the competition gets subsidized to ship free and gets
> sweetheart deals to open new warehouses or new hqs
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Jeff
On 1/18/2018 3:34 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/18/18 1:53 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On 1/18/18 10:13 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> They suck.
>>>>
>>>> I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive
>>>> clamping tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them. But
>>>> they are around a quarter of that.  If one breaks, I can
>>>> still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.
>>>>
>>>> Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no
>>>> problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
>>>> simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
>>>>
>>>
>>> What's alight duty clamp, though.
>>
>> Beats me, I see little to no difference between the HF quick release
>> clamps and equivalent ones from Jorgenson et al. If anything, I'd
>> say the the hf ones - those sold now - are heftier. I use them to
>> clamp all manner of things.
>>
>>> And shouldn't the jaws of even a light duty clamp stay at 90
>>> degrees to the bar.
>>
>> IME, no clamps like this do that because the bar flexes as pressure
>> is applied. That's no problem as long as the clamp is properly
>> positioned on the work piece; i.e., if you don't try to make the
>> clamp head perpendicular to the work.
>>
>
> I'm not sure what you're talking about. The above doesn't make a lot of
> sense to me.
> Just so it's clear what I'm talking about, here's a picture of the issue.
> http://mikedrums.com/HF_Bar_Clamp.JPG
>
> The end jaw doesn't even *start out* at 90degrees to the bar with no
> pressure at all.
> With pressure applied, it gets worse.
> This is completely unacceptable and in my mind renders the product
> defective as to its sole purpose.
>
>
>>> Even if you're only edge banding plywood shelves, if the jaw faces
>>> don't stay straight, they will try to pull the banding off the edge
>>> of the plywood or at least put uneven pressure (more pressure on
>>> the bottom).
>>
>> See above.
>>
>>> They just aren't worth the money to me anymore. Not with the
>>> hassles that come with using them. About all I can use them for
>>> is supplementary clamping after real parallel clamps are in place.
>>
>> Your money, of course, but at 1/3 the cost or less of others, I'll
>> stick with HF.
>>
>
> Been down that road and haven't looked back. Have fun.
> I'd rather spend my time making stuff than having to modify tools or
> techniques involved in using them just to get them to do their most
> basic intended functions.
>
>
Well Mikey, you got a bad one.
Here's mine and a Jet for comparison.
https://imgur.com/a/LbA3r
The jet bend out of shape real fast, the HF is much better. I don't have
an issue with them as used. When I need a heavy duty clamp, I take my
cabinet masters or Bessey K body's out. Or a pipe clamp.
--
Jeff
On 1/18/2018 12:48 AM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 1/17/2018 9:46 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> They suck.
>> I have about 6 that are somewhere around 20 years old. They have been
> very good. Understand that they are light duty clamps, they are not made
> to torque down to the max... if you did, you really don't understand
> them. They are for things that can't handle heavy clamps.
>
> Mine have been fine.
>
One more thing, my HF clamps are better than the Jets. The jet has a
very thin wall and really bow very quickly. The HF are more stout.
--
Jeff
On 1/17/2018 9:46 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> They suck.
> I have about 6 that are somewhere around 20 years old. They have been
very good. Understand that they are light duty clamps, they are not made
to torque down to the max... if you did, you really don't understand
them. They are for things that can't handle heavy clamps.
Mine have been fine.
--
Jeff
DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote in news:b2dac27e-90f0-418e-81a3-
[email protected]:
> They suck.
>
Can you be a little more specific?
On 1/22/2018 7:38 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:55:57 -0800, pyotr filipivich
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Electric Comet <[email protected]> on Mon, 22 Jan 2018
>> 11:52:16 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>>>
>>> who let them ship for free
>>> someone has to pay for the cost to ship
>>> maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
>>> bullied into absorbing the costs too
>>
>> Amazon charges $9 a month for "free" shipping.
>
> No, Prime is more than $9 (I think it just went up to $13) but they do
> free shipping on orders greater than $50, also.
>>
>> They may have cut a deal with UPS/USPS for a discount, but they
>> would not be the first.
>
> Yes, there are reports that they have a real sweetheart deal with
> USPS, subsidized by everyone in the US.
>
Just the other night there was an NBC special covering the sweetheart
deals that some cities are offering Amazon. I do not recall the small
town but they offered to let Amazon use the land for $1. That created
thousands of local jobs and a 35% increase in sales tax revenue.
On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 18:23:41 -0800, pyotr filipivich
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Cost more in S&H but he needed it yesterday to finish
>production.
Ah a tangent, I know it is shipping and handling, but in the garage is
an S&H Green Stamp sign, a bit over 40" x 40", the light works, tis
wrapped in bubble wrap. Came from my wifes mom's house, the wifes
brothers liberated it in the past.
On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 21:24:27 -0800, pyotr filipivich
<[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] on Mon, 22 Jan 2018 22:11:21 -0500 typed in
>rec.woodworking the following:
>>On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 20:52:23 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On 1/22/18 7:38 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:55:57 -0800, pyotr filipivich
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Electric Comet <[email protected]> on Mon, 22 Jan 2018
>>>>> 11:52:16 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> who let them ship for free
>>>>>> someone has to pay for the cost to ship
>>>>>> maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
>>>>>> bullied into absorbing the costs too
>>>>>
>>>>> Amazon charges $9 a month for "free" shipping.
>>>>
>>>> No, Prime is more than $9 (I think it just went up to $13) but they do
>>>> free shipping on orders greater than $50, also.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>It's a lot more than just free shipping. There's a lot of online
>>>content available.
>>>Also, cheaper to pay by the year.
>>
>>All correct. I was responding to the letter of the post.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> They may have cut a deal with UPS/USPS for a discount, but they
>>>>> would not be the first.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, there are reports that they have a real sweetheart deal with
>>>> USPS, subsidized by everyone in the US.
>>>>
>>>
>>>They may be the only thing besides junk mail keeping the USPS afloat.
>>
>>The only thing keeping them afloat is the taxpayer.
>
> That is the way it has been since it was a Federal Agency and the
>largest employer in the land.
The USPS has *always* been a federal agency but it has not always had
a mandate to pay for its way. If it can't meet its obligations, it's
time to shut it down.
On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> They suck.
Yep. Toss my hat in with yours. They worked OK for a short while, but after that they found different ways to fail.
The only thing worse they sell in that line at HF? Those fricking squeeze clamps. I purchased carefully in the store, and within one job, all six clamps I bought wouldn't compress //at all//.
Robert
On Sat, 20 Jan 2018 06:58:31 -0800 (PST), "Dr. Deb"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> >On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> >> They suck.
>> >
>> >I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive clamping tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them. But they are around a quarter of that. If one breaks, I can still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.
>>
>> Except that they break when you *need* them, not when they're hanging
>> on the wall looking pretty. If I can't trust a tool, I don't want it
>> around.
>>
>> >Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
>>
>> Bar clamps shouldn't be "light duty". They didn't bend. The damned
>> thins broke, with just moderate pressure. My Irwin Quick Clamps will
>> do 10x the clamping force. ...and they aren't designed for such.
>
>I hate to say this, but if your joints were made better, you would not need so much force. If you have to jam them together, something is wrong with the joint.
>
> I always heard the rule of thumb for a mortise and tenon was that they should fit so that you could knock them together with your hat.
In a perfect world, maybe you can find perfect wood along side perfect
people.
On 1/18/2018 12:39 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 08:13:26 -0800 (PST)
> "Dr. Deb" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
>> simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
>
>
> very possible
>
> unreasonable expectations are common with consumers
+1
>
> on a similar note amazon is weeding out some of these consumers that
> send too many things back
Side issue: Amazon is ending the America that I knew. They are in effect
becoming a monopoly, and forcing many stores to close. While I am not a
shopper, nor is my wife, all these empty stores are very noticeable.
This will have repercussions in the building industry.
>
> not sure if hf will do that too but they might because that can dig
> into the bottom line in a big way
--
Jeff
On Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 11:13:31 AM UTC-5, Dr. Deb wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > They suck.
>
> I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive clamping tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them. But they are around a quarter of that.
If you are getting the clamps whose model number is in my subject line for $5, then you
have better HF coupons than the rest of us. Please send me a couple of those coups.
> If one breaks, I can still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.
> Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
On Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 10:01:47 AM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
=20
> Oo, oo! You're talking about these, right?
>=20
> <https://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/clamps/6-inch-ratchet-bar-clamp=
-spreader-46806.html>
>=20
> I think at the time they may have been orange.
> I bought 2 and took them back after the handles broke before they'd=20
> actually hold what they were clamped to. :-)
Yessireee... that is the very POS I was talking about. I use a lot of sque=
eze clamps as I work by myself a lot. I thought I was being smart as they =
had them for $2.99 or something like that so I bought about 5. Having brok=
en a squeeze clamp, I was able to look into the mechanism of those things. =
I don't know how they screwed those us so completely, but they sure did.
They weren't worth the time it took to throw them away - ALL of them failed=
in a week or so.
Robert=20
On 1/18/2018 5:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/18/18 4:02 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On 1/18/18 1:53 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>>>> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> On 1/18/18 10:13 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> They suck.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive
>>>>>> clamping tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them. But
>>>>>> they are around a quarter of that.  If one breaks, I can
>>>>>> still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no problems.
>>>>>> Could it be that those who are having the problems are simply over
>>>>>> stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What's alight duty clamp, though.
>>>>
>>>> Beats me, I see little to no difference between the HF quick release
>>>> clamps and equivalent ones from Jorgenson et al. If anything, I'd
>>>> say the the hf ones - those sold now - are heftier. I use them to
>>>> clamp all manner of things.
>>>>
>>>>> And shouldn't the jaws of even a light duty clamp stay at 90
>>>>> degrees to the bar.
>>>>
>>>> IME, no clamps like this do that because the bar flexes as pressure
>>>> is applied. That's no problem as long as the clamp is properly
>>>> positioned on the work piece; i.e., if you don't try to make the
>>>> clamp head perpendicular to the work.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what you're talking about. The above doesn't make a lot of
>>> sense to me.
>>> Just so it's clear what I'm talking about, here's a picture of the
>>> issue.
>>> http://mikedrums.com/HF_Bar_Clamp.JPG
>>
>> It might make more sense if you were talking about quick release
>> clamps like
>> this...
>> https://shop.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/6/2/62237_zzz_500.jpg
>>
>>
>
> It might make more sense if you read the subject line and look at that
> clamp.
>
>
>>> The end jaw doesn't even *start out* at 90degrees to the bar with no
>>> pressure at all.
>>> With pressure applied, it gets worse.
>>> This is completely unacceptable and in my mind renders the product
>>> defective as to its sole purpose.
>>
>> It really doesn't matter if the jaw is at 90 degrees or not as long as
>> you
>> can set the clamp so that the area applying the pressure is where you
>> want
>> it.
>>
>> No special technique or tool modification needed.
>>
>
> Wow.
> I don't even know how to reply to that with anything other than laughter.
> Just never mind. You go ahead and use them and enjoy.
>
>
Actually Mike, glue a dowel onto that pad, that will ride centered on a
3/4 piece of wood. It will center the pressure every time and save the
clamp.. Or thow it away. Or strip it for parts.
--
Jeff
On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 17:02:45 -0500, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On 1/18/18 1:53 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>>> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 1/18/18 10:13 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> They suck.
>>>>>
>>>>> I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive
>>>>> clamping tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them. But
>>>>> they are around a quarter of that. If one breaks, I can
>>>>> still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no problems.
>>>>> Could it be that those who are having the problems are simply over
>>>>> stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's alight duty clamp, though.
>>>
>>> Beats me, I see little to no difference between the HF quick release
>>> clamps and equivalent ones from Jorgenson et al. If anything, I'd
>>> say the the hf ones - those sold now - are heftier. I use them to
>>> clamp all manner of things.
>>>
>>>> And shouldn't the jaws of even a light duty clamp stay at 90
>>>> degrees to the bar.
>>>
>>> IME, no clamps like this do that because the bar flexes as pressure
>>> is applied. That's no problem as long as the clamp is properly
>>> positioned on the work piece; i.e., if you don't try to make the
>>> clamp head perpendicular to the work.
>>>
>>
>> I'm not sure what you're talking about. The above doesn't make a lot of
>> sense to me.
>> Just so it's clear what I'm talking about, here's a picture of the issue.
>> http://mikedrums.com/HF_Bar_Clamp.JPG
>
>It might make more sense if you were talking about quick release clamps like
>this...
>https://shop.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/6/2/62237_zzz_500.jpg
We, it always helps if everyone in a conversation is talking about the
same thing. I have a bunch of the above, too. They're OK for really
small stuff. Keeping the jaws parallel isn't a big deal with this
sort of clamp. The jaw is so small, it doesn't matter much.
I thought you were talking about Mike's bar clamp, as well. Or
perhaps these:
<https://www.harborfreight.com/18-in-ratcheting-bar-clampspreader-62125.html>
Both suck eggs.
>> The end jaw doesn't even *start out* at 90degrees to the bar with no
>> pressure at all.
>> With pressure applied, it gets worse.
>> This is completely unacceptable and in my mind renders the product
>> defective as to its sole purpose.
>
>It really doesn't matter if the jaw is at 90 degrees or not as long as you
>can set the clamp so that the area applying the pressure is where you want
>it.
>
>No special technique or tool modification needed.
Right. Different clamps. Different issues.
On Monday, January 22, 2018 at 2:52:22 PM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Jan 2018 10:45:39 -0500
> woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Side issue: Amazon is ending the America that I knew. They are in
> > effect becoming a monopoly, and forcing many stores to close. While I
> > am not a shopper, nor is my wife, all these empty stores are very
> > noticeable. This will have repercussions in the building industry.
>
>
> not disagreeing with the symptoms and retail across the board is
> hurting badly
>
> we are heading into a major correction
What kind of correction? In the stock market?
Please explain what you see that leads you to believe that.
>
> i think many of the empty stores would have become empty without
> amazon
Is that a standalone statement or is it supposed to be connected to
your "correction prediction"? If the statements are connected, please
explain why you think empty stores are going to lead to a "correction",
after you explain what type of correction you are talking about and why
you expect one.
>
> some questions to ponder
>
> who let them operate with out charging sales tax for so long
> i think they charge sales tax now
They've always charged sales tax. It depends on the type of sale and the
location of where the item is being shipped. When they don't charge tax,
it's on the purchaser to pay it.
Read up on "use tax".
>
> who let them ship for free
> someone has to pay for the cost to ship
> maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
> bullied into absorbing the costs too
You obviously don't know how "free shipping" actually works. You, I and
everyone else who buys stuff on line are paying for it.
>
> not a level playing field for sure and the small business cannot
> compete when the competition gets subsidized to ship free and gets
> sweetheart deals to open new warehouses or new hqs
Any business that can prove (well, at least convince them) that they will
substantially improve the local economy can get a sweetheart deal. Sports
stadiums, headquarters that brings people to hotels and restaurants, etc.
I'm not saying it's 100% right, but you can't just blame Amazon when it
happens with many different types of businesses.
Electric Comet <[email protected]> on Mon, 22 Jan 2018
11:52:16 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>
>who let them ship for free
>someone has to pay for the cost to ship
>maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
>bullied into absorbing the costs too
Amazon charges $9 a month for "free" shipping.
They may have cut a deal with UPS/USPS for a discount, but they
would not be the first.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
On Saturday, January 20, 2018 at 12:06:08 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/20/18 11:38 AM, Leon wrote:
=20
> > Hopefully you were not checking that clamp with a Harbor Freight square=
.=20
> > =C2=A0;~)
> >=20
>=20
> Don't be silly.
> If I checked it with a HF square, it would be square. :-p
I can hear Ed McMahon and his "Hiyo!" with a rim shot!
I have those same HF clamps and used them for about 3 or 4 glue ups. I spo=
tted one that was out of square right away so I marked it and used it for p=
lywood framing glue ups, etc. Oddly, it held up. The others? Even in lig=
ht use, after the mentioned 3 or 4 glue ups the little balls inside the cla=
mp head on the end of the screw just fell off.
I don't trust them so I don't use them. I don't know why I don't throw the=
m away.
Sadly, these used to be a great HF product.
https://www.harborfreight.com/10-in-handscrew-clamp-60549.html
I have a couple left that continue to serve and they are just as good as th=
eir domestic counterparts. But the newer versions aren't nearly as well ma=
de and even some of the wood parts are cracked before purchase. I rarely u=
se that style clamp, but still, I wish I had bought a few more.
Robert=20
[email protected] on Mon, 22 Jan 2018 22:11:21 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
>On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 20:52:23 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>On 1/22/18 7:38 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:55:57 -0800, pyotr filipivich
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Electric Comet <[email protected]> on Mon, 22 Jan 2018
>>>> 11:52:16 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>>>>>
>>>>> who let them ship for free
>>>>> someone has to pay for the cost to ship
>>>>> maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
>>>>> bullied into absorbing the costs too
>>>>
>>>> Amazon charges $9 a month for "free" shipping.
>>>
>>> No, Prime is more than $9 (I think it just went up to $13) but they do
>>> free shipping on orders greater than $50, also.
>>>>
>>
>>It's a lot more than just free shipping. There's a lot of online
>>content available.
>>Also, cheaper to pay by the year.
>
>All correct. I was responding to the letter of the post.
>>
>>
>>>> They may have cut a deal with UPS/USPS for a discount, but they
>>>> would not be the first.
>>>
>>> Yes, there are reports that they have a real sweetheart deal with
>>> USPS, subsidized by everyone in the US.
>>>
>>
>>They may be the only thing besides junk mail keeping the USPS afloat.
>
>The only thing keeping them afloat is the taxpayer.
That is the way it has been since it was a Federal Agency and the
largest employer in the land.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
woodchucker <[email protected]> on Mon, 22 Jan 2018 23:00:23 -0500
typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>
>> who let them operate with out charging sales tax for so long
>> i think they charge sales tax now
>>
>> who let them ship for free
>
>There's no free shipping. Look at the prime price, it's much higher
>sometimes double the price of other vendors through Amazon.
>So prime is often higher priced to cover shipping.
>If you are not a prime customer and reach the free shipping, you are
>paying for it, it's built into the cost.
Prime is now a wonderful bundle of services. Not only can you get
streaming movies, or music or ebooks, but it also includes shipping of
actual physical media. Like books, records and DVDs.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 08:13:26 -0800 (PST), "Dr. Deb"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> They suck.
>
>I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive clamping tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them. But they are around a quarter of that. If one breaks, I can still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.
Except that they break when you *need* them, not when they're hanging
on the wall looking pretty. If I can't trust a tool, I don't want it
around.
>Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
Bar clamps shouldn't be "light duty". They didn't bend. The damned
thins broke, with just moderate pressure. My Irwin Quick Clamps will
do 10x the clamping force. ...and they aren't designed for such.
Markem <[email protected]> on Tue, 23 Jan 2018 23:53:38 -0600
typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 18:23:41 -0800, pyotr filipivich
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Cost more in S&H but he needed it yesterday to finish
>>production.
>
>Ah a tangent, I know it is shipping and handling, but in the garage is
>an S&H Green Stamp sign, a bit over 40" x 40", the light works, tis
>wrapped in bubble wrap. Came from my wifes mom's house, the wifes
>brothers liberated it in the past.
Cool.
"Shipping and Handling" - "Those fingerprints don't get on the
merchandise by themselves. Someone has to put them there!"
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 12:05:58 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tuesday, January 23, 2018 at 2:33:49 PM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
>> On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 09:55:29 -0800
>> pyotr filipivich <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > Yep. Not sure how it works out practically (am I buying more
>> > often because of "free" shopping, vs "saving up purchases" to qualify
>> > for "free" shipping.?).
>>
>>
>> i am buying locally
>> and if that is not possible i try to buy direct as many manufacturers
>> are selling direct now
>>
>> if none of those are possible than i rethink the need or do without
>>
>> so far have not had to use the amazon of last resort
>
>nose spite face
period
On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 12:28:23 -0500, woodchucker <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 1/22/2018 9:47 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> On Monday, January 22, 2018 at 2:52:22 PM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
>>> On Sun, 21 Jan 2018 10:45:39 -0500
>>> woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Side issue: Amazon is ending the America that I knew. They are in
>>>> effect becoming a monopoly, and forcing many stores to close. While I
>>>> am not a shopper, nor is my wife, all these empty stores are very
>>>> noticeable. This will have repercussions in the building industry.
>>>
>>>
>>> not disagreeing with the symptoms and retail across the board is
>>> hurting badly
>>>
>>> we are heading into a major correction
>>
>> What kind of correction? In the stock market?
>>
>> Please explain what you see that leads you to believe that.
>>
>>>
>>> i think many of the empty stores would have become empty without
>>> amazon
>>
>> Is that a standalone statement or is it supposed to be connected to
>> your "correction prediction"? If the statements are connected, please
>> explain why you think empty stores are going to lead to a "correction",
>> after you explain what type of correction you are talking about and why
>> you expect one.
>>
>>>
>>> some questions to ponder
>>>
>>> who let them operate with out charging sales tax for so long
>>> i think they charge sales tax now
>>
>> They've always charged sales tax. It depends on the type of sale and the
>> location of where the item is being shipped. When they don't charge tax,
>> it's on the purchaser to pay it.
>>
>They didn't always. NJ forced them to.
"They" still don't. Some sellers still don't collect it.
>
>> Read up on "use tax".
>>
>>>
>>> who let them ship for free
>>> someone has to pay for the cost to ship
>>> maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
>>> bullied into absorbing the costs too
>>
>> You obviously don't know how "free shipping" actually works. You, I and
>> everyone else who buys stuff on line are paying for it.
>+1 yep, nothing is really free.
*NOTHING* is really free.
On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 20:52:23 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 1/22/18 7:38 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:55:57 -0800, pyotr filipivich
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Electric Comet <[email protected]> on Mon, 22 Jan 2018
>>> 11:52:16 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>>>>
>>>> who let them ship for free
>>>> someone has to pay for the cost to ship
>>>> maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
>>>> bullied into absorbing the costs too
>>>
>>> Amazon charges $9 a month for "free" shipping.
>>
>> No, Prime is more than $9 (I think it just went up to $13) but they do
>> free shipping on orders greater than $50, also.
>>>
>
>It's a lot more than just free shipping. There's a lot of online
>content available.
>Also, cheaper to pay by the year.
All correct. I was responding to the letter of the post.
>
>
>>> They may have cut a deal with UPS/USPS for a discount, but they
>>> would not be the first.
>>
>> Yes, there are reports that they have a real sweetheart deal with
>> USPS, subsidized by everyone in the US.
>>
>
>They may be the only thing besides junk mail keeping the USPS afloat.
The only thing keeping them afloat is the taxpayer.
Electric Comet <[email protected]> on Tue, 23 Jan 2018
11:33:44 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 09:55:29 -0800
>pyotr filipivich <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Yep. Not sure how it works out practically (am I buying more
>> often because of "free" shopping, vs "saving up purchases" to qualify
>> for "free" shipping.?).
>
>i am buying locally
I'd love to do that. Now, if only they stocked what I am looking
for.
>and if that is not possible i try to buy direct as many manufacturers
>are selling direct now
Sometimes it is a tossup. The one time I found buying a text
from the school bookstore cheaper was for a welding textbook. Cheaper
w/ the sales tax than straight from Lincoln + shipping.
>
>if none of those are possible than i rethink the need or do without
When I have that option, sure.
"Value to whom? value as what?" I recall getting a call from an
east coast manufacturer "Do you have a particular router bit in stock?
Send it." Cost more in S&H but he needed it yesterday to finish
production.
>
>so far have not had to use the amazon of last resort
Finding textbooks at Walmart for less than the bookstore - always
a deal. In one case, the school sold a reprint of part of a text, I
was able to find the original text for less than what the school
wanted for their "special". Even found the original Magnum Opus for
just a tad more than what the school wanted for their extract. If I
was willing to wait for a shipment from the UK.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 09:39:27 -0800, Electric Comet
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 08:13:26 -0800 (PST)
>"Dr. Deb" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
>> simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
>
>
>very possible
>
>unreasonable expectations are common with consumers
It's not unreasonable to expect a clamp to stay in one piece. I've
never broken a clamp, other than these HFs. They're poorly designed
and poorly executed.
>on a similar note amazon is weeding out some of these consumers that
>send too many things back
Nothing new. Brick and mortar stores have been doing this for decades.
>not sure if hf will do that too but they might because that can dig
>into the bottom line in a big way
I don't bring things back to HF. I just don't shop there much because
of all the crap they sell. That hits their bottom line too.
On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:53:14 -0500, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On 1/18/18 10:13 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>> They suck.
>>>
>>> I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive clamping
>>> tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them.
>>> But they are around a quarter of that. If one breaks, I can still
>>> buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.
>>>
>>> Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no
>>> problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
>>> simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
>>>
>>
>> What's alight duty clamp, though.
>
>Beats me, I see little to no difference between the HF quick release clamps
>and equivalent ones from Jorgenson et al. If anything, I'd say the the hf
>ones - those sold now - are heftier. I use them to clamp all manner of
>things.
Not sure what a "quick release" clamp is (that's what the HF bar
clamps do when the casting breaks ;-) but the HF clamps like the Irwin
Quick Clamps aren't worth spit, either. It's not that they're light
duty. They wouldn't work as paper clips.
>> And shouldn't the jaws of even a light duty clamp stay at 90 degrees to
>> the bar.
>
>IME, no clamps like this do that because the bar flexes as pressure is
>applied. That's no problem as long as the clamp is properly positioned on
>the work piece; i.e., if you don't try to make the clamp head perpendicular
>to the work.
Bessey K-Body clamps are pretty good. Even my Irwin Heaavy Duty Quick
Clamps are a *lot* better. In fact the Irwins are the go-to setup
clamps.
>
>> Even if you're only edge banding plywood shelves, if the jaw faces don't
>> stay straight, they will try to pull the banding off the edge of the
>> plywood or at least put uneven pressure (more pressure on the bottom).
>
>See above.
>
>> They just aren't worth the money to me anymore. Not with the hassles
>> that come with using them. About all I can use them for is
>> supplementary clamping after real parallel clamps are in place.
>
>Your money, of course, but at 1/3 the cost or less of others, I'll stick
>with HF.
I once thought so. If they were worth the shipping, I'd send the lot
to you. I'l never use them again.
On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 23:23:52 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> They suck.
>
>Yep. Toss my hat in with yours. They worked OK for a short while, but after that they found different ways to fail.
>
>The only thing worse they sell in that line at HF? Those fricking squeeze clamps. I purchased carefully in the store, and within one job, all six clamps I bought wouldn't compress //at all//.
+1
I wouldn't even buy a 'C' clamp at HF, anymore.
On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 12:56:06 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 1/22/2018 7:38 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:55:57 -0800, pyotr filipivich
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Electric Comet <[email protected]> on Mon, 22 Jan 2018
>>> 11:52:16 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>>>>
>>>> who let them ship for free
>>>> someone has to pay for the cost to ship
>>>> maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
>>>> bullied into absorbing the costs too
>>>
>>> Amazon charges $9 a month for "free" shipping.
>>
>> No, Prime is more than $9 (I think it just went up to $13) but they do
>> free shipping on orders greater than $50, also.
>>>
>>> They may have cut a deal with UPS/USPS for a discount, but they
>>> would not be the first.
>>
>> Yes, there are reports that they have a real sweetheart deal with
>> USPS, subsidized by everyone in the US.
>>
>
>Just the other night there was an NBC special covering the sweetheart
>deals that some cities are offering Amazon. I do not recall the small
>town but they offered to let Amazon use the land for $1. That created
>thousands of local jobs and a 35% increase in sales tax revenue.
That's peanuts. Amazon's going to want a lot more than a little land.
Atlanta is favored (even odds) by the odd-makers and I'll bet Georgia
will offer a package exceeding a $B to get it. Amazon is talking
about a $5B payroll for the HQ2.
On Fri, 19 Jan 2018 09:34:31 -0800, Electric Comet
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 18:46:29 -0800 (PST)
>DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> They suck.
>
>not one of the better reviews
but the most accurate i've read in a long time and not one word i
disagree with
"DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> They suck.
Perhaps you would do better with the steel quick release clamps. I Have 50
or so in varying sizes accumulated over 20+ years and none have ever failed,
all work fine.
On 1/18/18 1:23 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> They suck.
>
> Yep. Toss my hat in with yours. They worked OK for a short while, but after that they found different ways to fail.
>
> The only thing worse they sell in that line at HF? Those fricking squeeze clamps. I purchased carefully in the store, and within one job, all six clamps I bought wouldn't compress //at all//.
>
> Robert
>
Oo, oo! You're talking about these, right?
<https://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/clamps/6-inch-ratchet-bar-clamp-spreader-46806.html>
I think at the time they may have been orange.
I bought 2 and took them back after the handles broke before they'd
actually hold what they were clamped to. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com
On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 00:48:11 -0500
woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
> very good. Understand that they are light duty clamps, they are not
> made to torque down to the max... if you did, you really don't
> understand them. They are for things that can't handle heavy clamps.
yeah most reviewers may not be using them correctly
and who has not tried to clamp the mistakes out of something once or
twice
On 1/18/18 10:13 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
> wrote:
>> They suck.
>
> I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive
> clamping tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them.
> But they are around a quarter of that. If one breaks, I can still
> buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.
>
> Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no
> problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
> simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
>
What's alight duty clamp, though.
And shouldn't the jaws of even a light duty clamp stay at 90 degrees to
the bar.
Even if you're only edge banding plywood shelves, if the jaw faces don't
stay straight, they will try to pull the banding off the edge of the
plywood or at least put uneven pressure (more pressure on the bottom).
They just aren't worth the money to me anymore. Not with the hassles
that come with using them. About all I can use them for is
supplementary clamping after real parallel clamps are in place.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com
On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 08:13:26 -0800 (PST)
"Dr. Deb" <[email protected]> wrote:
> problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
> simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
very possible
unreasonable expectations are common with consumers
on a similar note amazon is weeding out some of these consumers that
send too many things back
not sure if hf will do that too but they might because that can dig
into the bottom line in a big way
On 1/18/2018 12:48 AM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 1/17/2018 9:46 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> They suck.
>> I have about 6 that are somewhere around 20 years old. They have been
> very good. Understand that they are light duty clamps, they are not made
> to torque down to the max... if you did, you really don't understand
> them. They are for things that can't handle heavy clamps.
>
> Mine have been fine.
>
Agreed. Iâve had mine for many years and theyâve been great. i broke one
because i torqued it down too much. Weâre not supposed to squeeze all
the glue out anyway.
"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 1/18/18 10:13 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> They suck.
>>
>> I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive clamping
>> tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them.
>> But they are around a quarter of that. If one breaks, I can still
>> buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.
>>
>> Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no
>> problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
>> simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
>>
>
> What's alight duty clamp, though.
Beats me, I see little to no difference between the HF quick release clamps
and equivalent ones from Jorgenson et al. If anything, I'd say the the hf
ones - those sold now - are heftier. I use them to clamp all manner of
things.
> And shouldn't the jaws of even a light duty clamp stay at 90 degrees to
> the bar.
IME, no clamps like this do that because the bar flexes as pressure is
applied. That's no problem as long as the clamp is properly positioned on
the work piece; i.e., if you don't try to make the clamp head perpendicular
to the work.
> Even if you're only edge banding plywood shelves, if the jaw faces don't
> stay straight, they will try to pull the banding off the edge of the
> plywood or at least put uneven pressure (more pressure on the bottom).
See above.
> They just aren't worth the money to me anymore. Not with the hassles
> that come with using them. About all I can use them for is
> supplementary clamping after real parallel clamps are in place.
Your money, of course, but at 1/3 the cost or less of others, I'll stick
with HF.
On 1/18/18 1:53 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 1/18/18 10:13 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
>>> wrote:
>>>> They suck.
>>>
>>> I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive
>>> clamping tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them.
>>> But they are around a quarter of that. If one breaks, I can
>>> still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.
>>>
>>> Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no
>>> problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
>>> simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
>>>
>>
>> What's alight duty clamp, though.
>
> Beats me, I see little to no difference between the HF quick release
> clamps and equivalent ones from Jorgenson et al. If anything, I'd
> say the the hf ones - those sold now - are heftier. I use them to
> clamp all manner of things.
>
>> And shouldn't the jaws of even a light duty clamp stay at 90
>> degrees to the bar.
>
> IME, no clamps like this do that because the bar flexes as pressure
> is applied. That's no problem as long as the clamp is properly
> positioned on the work piece; i.e., if you don't try to make the
> clamp head perpendicular to the work.
>
I'm not sure what you're talking about. The above doesn't make a lot of
sense to me.
Just so it's clear what I'm talking about, here's a picture of the issue.
http://mikedrums.com/HF_Bar_Clamp.JPG
The end jaw doesn't even *start out* at 90degrees to the bar with no
pressure at all.
With pressure applied, it gets worse.
This is completely unacceptable and in my mind renders the product
defective as to its sole purpose.
>> Even if you're only edge banding plywood shelves, if the jaw faces
>> don't stay straight, they will try to pull the banding off the edge
>> of the plywood or at least put uneven pressure (more pressure on
>> the bottom).
>
> See above.
>
>> They just aren't worth the money to me anymore. Not with the
>> hassles that come with using them. About all I can use them for
>> is supplementary clamping after real parallel clamps are in place.
>
> Your money, of course, but at 1/3 the cost or less of others, I'll
> stick with HF.
>
Been down that road and haven't looked back. Have fun.
I'd rather spend my time making stuff than having to modify tools or
techniques involved in using them just to get them to do their most
basic intended functions.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com
"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 1/18/18 1:53 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On 1/18/18 10:13 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> They suck.
>>>>
>>>> I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive
>>>> clamping tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them. But
>>>> they are around a quarter of that. If one breaks, I can
>>>> still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.
>>>>
>>>> Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no problems.
>>>> Could it be that those who are having the problems are simply over
>>>> stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
>>>>
>>>
>>> What's alight duty clamp, though.
>>
>> Beats me, I see little to no difference between the HF quick release
>> clamps and equivalent ones from Jorgenson et al. If anything, I'd
>> say the the hf ones - those sold now - are heftier. I use them to
>> clamp all manner of things.
>>
>>> And shouldn't the jaws of even a light duty clamp stay at 90
>>> degrees to the bar.
>>
>> IME, no clamps like this do that because the bar flexes as pressure
>> is applied. That's no problem as long as the clamp is properly
>> positioned on the work piece; i.e., if you don't try to make the
>> clamp head perpendicular to the work.
>>
>
> I'm not sure what you're talking about. The above doesn't make a lot of
> sense to me.
> Just so it's clear what I'm talking about, here's a picture of the issue.
> http://mikedrums.com/HF_Bar_Clamp.JPG
It might make more sense if you were talking about quick release clamps like
this...
https://shop.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/6/2/62237_zzz_500.jpg
> The end jaw doesn't even *start out* at 90degrees to the bar with no
> pressure at all.
> With pressure applied, it gets worse.
> This is completely unacceptable and in my mind renders the product
> defective as to its sole purpose.
It really doesn't matter if the jaw is at 90 degrees or not as long as you
can set the clamp so that the area applying the pressure is where you want
it.
No special technique or tool modification needed.
On 1/18/18 4:02 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 1/18/18 1:53 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>>> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 1/18/18 10:13 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> They suck.
>>>>>
>>>>> I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive
>>>>> clamping tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them. But
>>>>> they are around a quarter of that. If one breaks, I can
>>>>> still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no problems.
>>>>> Could it be that those who are having the problems are simply over
>>>>> stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's alight duty clamp, though.
>>>
>>> Beats me, I see little to no difference between the HF quick release
>>> clamps and equivalent ones from Jorgenson et al. If anything, I'd
>>> say the the hf ones - those sold now - are heftier. I use them to
>>> clamp all manner of things.
>>>
>>>> And shouldn't the jaws of even a light duty clamp stay at 90
>>>> degrees to the bar.
>>>
>>> IME, no clamps like this do that because the bar flexes as pressure
>>> is applied. That's no problem as long as the clamp is properly
>>> positioned on the work piece; i.e., if you don't try to make the
>>> clamp head perpendicular to the work.
>>>
>>
>> I'm not sure what you're talking about. The above doesn't make a lot of
>> sense to me.
>> Just so it's clear what I'm talking about, here's a picture of the issue.
>> http://mikedrums.com/HF_Bar_Clamp.JPG
>
> It might make more sense if you were talking about quick release clamps like
> this...
> https://shop.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/6/2/62237_zzz_500.jpg
>
It might make more sense if you read the subject line and look at that
clamp.
>> The end jaw doesn't even *start out* at 90degrees to the bar with no
>> pressure at all.
>> With pressure applied, it gets worse.
>> This is completely unacceptable and in my mind renders the product
>> defective as to its sole purpose.
>
> It really doesn't matter if the jaw is at 90 degrees or not as long as you
> can set the clamp so that the area applying the pressure is where you want
> it.
>
> No special technique or tool modification needed.
>
Wow.
I don't even know how to reply to that with anything other than laughter.
Just never mind. You go ahead and use them and enjoy.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com
On 1/17/2018 7:46 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> They suck.
>
I have had plastic quick clamps fail to do what I would like from most
Mfgs. HF #46806 type. I just do not buy them anymore. I've got one
old Irwin that has not totally failed yet, but it does have a lower
clamping force than I would like. Various others in various sizes have
all slowly gone into the round file over the years.
#60539 is an aluminum "close?" bar clamp with similar grip range to the
old pipe mounted clamps we use to buy. I would shy away from it because
its aluminum and from Harbor Freight. Aluminum can be quite strong.
Some alloys (7075 for example) can be stronger than some steels. The
problem is its probably not 7075.
Now the little old style bar clamps like the #62239 seem to be ok. They
are a pretty light bar, but they are no worse than any other clamp with
such a light duty steel bar. I've never actually had one of them slip,
although the lock on similar Irwin clamps has slipped on me. I threw
three of them away all at once one day. I have about 20 of those little
#62239 clamps and I use them with far more clamping force than they are
design for to hold injection molds closed when I am injecting.
I have a few Jorgensen clamps, and a bunch of bar clamps from various
MFGs. I have several bar clamps from harbor freight with the heavier
steel bar as well. (I don't see those on the website. Maybe they don't
sell them anymore.) They work fine. I've learned if I take my time and
lay out my work on a nice clear bench or table it doesn't take long at
all to get everything clamped up. Often it takes half a day to clear a
bench and only half an hour to finish a glue up. LOL.
On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 18:46:29 -0800 (PST)
DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
> They suck.
not one of the better reviews
not in the pros versus cons sense but just creativity
there are some very funny reviews on hf
my all time favorite was a reviewer lamenting
they asked rhetorically why they continued to buy tool shaped objects
from hf
On 1/20/18 8:58 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
>
>>
>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
>>> wrote:
>>>> They suck.
>>>
>>> I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive
>>> clamping tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them.
>>> But they are around a quarter of that. If one breaks, I can
>>> still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.
>>
>> Except that they break when you *need* them, not when they're
>> hanging on the wall looking pretty. If I can't trust a tool, I
>> don't want it around.
>>
>>> Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no
>>> problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
>>> simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
>>
>> Bar clamps shouldn't be "light duty". They didn't bend. The
>> damned thins broke, with just moderate pressure. My Irwin Quick
>> Clamps will do 10x the clamping force. ...and they aren't designed
>> for such.
>
> I hate to say this, but if your joints were made better, you would
> not need so much force. If you have to jam them together, something
> is wrong with the joint.
>
> I always heard the rule of thumb for a mortise and tenon was that
> they should fit so that you could knock them together with your hat.
>
I subscribe to that philosophy as well.
Doesn't mean those HF aluminum bar clamps aren't $h!tty. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com
On 1/20/18 11:15 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 1/20/2018 8:58 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>> They suck.
>>>>
>>>> I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive
>>>> clamping tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them.
>>>> But they are around a quarter of that.  If one breaks, I can still
>>>> buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.
>>>
>>> Except that they break when you *need* them, not when they're hanging
>>> on the wall looking pretty. If I can't trust a tool, I don't want it
>>> around.
>>>
>>>> Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no
>>>> problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
>>>> simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
>>>
>>> Bar clamps shouldn't be "light duty". They didn't bend. The damned
>>> thins broke, with just moderate pressure. My Irwin Quick Clamps will
>>> do 10x the clamping force. ...and they aren't designed for such.
>>
>> I hate to say this, but if your joints were made better, you would not
>> need so much force. If you have to jam them together, something is
>> wrong with the joint.
>
> This is true but if you are gluing up a table top that is 5~8' long it
> is difficult to get a perfectly straight edge. Not even plywood has
> straight edges these days. Not unusual for a board to be straight this
> morning and bowed a bit this afternoon, depending on the humidity.
>
Or they bow after planing. You can't keep going back to the jointer or
table saw to correct every little warp. Sometimes, you wouldn't have any
board left.
In any case, or in the case of perfectly straight and flat boards for a
panel glue-up, what good is a clamp like this....
http://mikedrums.com/HF_Bar_Clamp.JPG
Even if you're only clamping two boards to make a panel, this thing will
act to push the board up. I've done plenty of 2 and 3 board glue-ups
with parallel clamps where I didn't need to hold the middle of the
boards down so they didn't pop up. Once I get past 3 it's usually
necessary with any clamp, no matter the quality.
But a clamp with a jaw that skewed is scrap metal, IMO.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com
On 1/20/18 11:38 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 1/20/2018 11:32 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 1/20/18 11:15 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 1/20/2018 8:58 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>>>> They suck.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive
>>>>>> clamping tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them.
>>>>>> But they are around a quarter of that.  If one breaks, I can
>>>>>> still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.
>>>>>
>>>>> Except that they break when you *need* them, not when they're hanging
>>>>> on the wall looking pretty. If I can't trust a tool, I don't want it
>>>>> around.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no
>>>>>> problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
>>>>>> simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
>>>>>
>>>>> Bar clamps shouldn't be "light duty". They didn't bend. The damned
>>>>> thins broke, with just moderate pressure. My Irwin Quick Clamps will
>>>>> do 10x the clamping force. ...and they aren't designed for such.
>>>>
>>>> I hate to say this, but if your joints were made better, you would
>>>> not need so much force. If you have to jam them together, something
>>>> is wrong with the joint.
>>>
>>> This is true but if you are gluing up a table top that is 5~8' long
>>> it is difficult to get a perfectly straight edge. Not even plywood
>>> has straight edges these days. Not unusual for a board to be
>>> straight this morning and bowed a bit this afternoon, depending on
>>> the humidity.
>>>
>>
>> Or they bow after planing. You can't keep going back to the jointer
>> or table saw to correct every little warp. Sometimes, you wouldn't
>> have any board left.
>>
>> In any case, or in the case of perfectly straight and flat boards for a
>
>> panel glue-up, what good is a clamp like this....
>> http://mikedrums.com/HF_Bar_Clamp.JPG
>
> Hopefully you were not checking that clamp with a Harbor Freight square.
> Â ;~)
>
Don't be silly.
If I checked it with a HF square, it would be square. :-p
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com
"Dr. Deb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> Bar clamps shouldn't be "light duty". They didn't bend. The damned
>> thins broke, with just moderate pressure. My Irwin Quick Clamps will
>> do 10x the clamping force. ...and they aren't designed for such.
>
> I hate to say this, but if your joints were made better, you would not
> need so much force. If you have to jam them together, something is wrong
> with the joint.
It rather depends upon what you are gluing up. If it is a 42" x 96"
tabletop I suspect you will find that the edges are not perfect and need
some force to close.
On 1/20/18 3:27 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 1/18/2018 3:34 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 1/18/18 1:53 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>>> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 1/18/18 10:13 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> They suck.
>>>>>
>>>>> I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive
>>>>> clamping tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them.
>>>>> But they are around a quarter of that.  If one breaks, I can
>>>>> still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no
>>>>> problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
>>>>> simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's alight duty clamp, though.
>>>
>>> Beats me, I see little to no difference between the HF quick release
>>> clamps and equivalent ones from Jorgenson et al. If anything, I'd
>>> say the the hf ones - those sold now - are heftier. I use them to
>>> clamp all manner of things.
>>>
>>>> And shouldn't the jaws of even a light duty clamp stay at 90
>>>> degrees to the bar.
>>>
>>> IME, no clamps like this do that because the bar flexes as pressure
>>> is applied. That's no problem as long as the clamp is properly
>>> positioned on the work piece; i.e., if you don't try to make the
>>> clamp head perpendicular to the work.
>>>
>>
>> I'm not sure what you're talking about. The above doesn't make a lot of
>> sense to me.
>> Just so it's clear what I'm talking about, here's a picture of the issue.
>> http://mikedrums.com/HF_Bar_Clamp.JPG
>>
>> The end jaw doesn't even *start out* at 90degrees to the bar with no
>> pressure at all.
>> With pressure applied, it gets worse.
>> This is completely unacceptable and in my mind renders the product
>> defective as to its sole purpose.
>>
>>
>>>> Even if you're only edge banding plywood shelves, if the jaw faces
>>>> don't stay straight, they will try to pull the banding off the edge
>>>> of the plywood or at least put uneven pressure (more pressure on
>>>> the bottom).
>>>
>>> See above.
>>>
>>>> They just aren't worth the money to me anymore. Not with the
>>>> hassles that come with using them. About all I can use them for
>>>> is supplementary clamping after real parallel clamps are in place.
>>>
>>> Your money, of course, but at 1/3 the cost or less of others, I'll
>>> stick with HF.
>>>
>>
>> Been down that road and haven't looked back. Have fun.
>> I'd rather spend my time making stuff than having to modify tools or
>> techniques involved in using them just to get them to do their most
>> basic intended functions.
>>
>>
> Well Mikey, you got a bad one.
> Here's mine and a Jet for comparison.
> https://imgur.com/a/LbA3r
> The jet bend out of shape real fast, the HF is much better. I don't have
> an issue with them as used. When I need a heavy duty clamp, I take my
> cabinet masters or Bessey K body's out. Or a pipe clamp.
>
Mine are all out of square. Maybe they've improved them. That would be
awesome.
FWIW, if you ask Jet about that, they'll tell you is so they bend "into
square" under pressure.
I don't know that's a bullshit answer to cover a faulty product or not.
But that's what they say.
Nice pencil sharpener!
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com
On 1/21/18 9:23 AM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 1/18/2018 5:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 1/18/18 4:02 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>>> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 1/18/18 1:53 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>>>>> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> On 1/18/18 10:13 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> They suck.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive
>>>>>>> clamping tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them. But
>>>>>>> they are around a quarter of that.  If one breaks, I can
>>>>>>> still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no
>>>>>>> problems.
>>>>>>> Could it be that those who are having the problems are simply over
>>>>>>> stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's alight duty clamp, though.
>>>>>
>>>>> Beats me, I see little to no difference between the HF quick release
>>>>> clamps and equivalent ones from Jorgenson et al. If anything, I'd
>>>>> say the the hf ones - those sold now - are heftier. I use them to
>>>>> clamp all manner of things.
>>>>>
>>>>>> And shouldn't the jaws of even a light duty clamp stay at 90
>>>>>> degrees to the bar.
>>>>>
>>>>> IME, no clamps like this do that because the bar flexes as pressure
>>>>> is applied. That's no problem as long as the clamp is properly
>>>>> positioned on the work piece; i.e., if you don't try to make the
>>>>> clamp head perpendicular to the work.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure what you're talking about. The above doesn't make a
>>>> lot of
>>>> sense to me.
>>>> Just so it's clear what I'm talking about, here's a picture of the
>>>> issue.
>>>> http://mikedrums.com/HF_Bar_Clamp.JPG
>>>
>>> It might make more sense if you were talking about quick release
>>> clamps like
>>> this...
>>> https://shop.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/6/2/62237_zzz_500.jpg
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It might make more sense if you read the subject line and look at that
>> clamp.
>>
>>
>>>> The end jaw doesn't even *start out* at 90degrees to the bar with no
>>>> pressure at all.
>>>> With pressure applied, it gets worse.
>>>> This is completely unacceptable and in my mind renders the product
>>>> defective as to its sole purpose.
>>>
>>> It really doesn't matter if the jaw is at 90 degrees or not as long
>>> as you
>>> can set the clamp so that the area applying the pressure is where you
>>> want
>>> it.
>>>
>>> No special technique or tool modification needed.
>>>
>>
>> Wow.
>> I don't even know how to reply to that with anything other than laughter.
>> Just never mind. You go ahead and use them and enjoy.
>>
>>
> Actually Mike, glue a dowel onto that pad, that will ride centered on a
> 3/4 piece of wood. It will center the pressure every time and save the
> clamp.. Or thow it away. Or strip it for parts.
>
I believe I already stated they were only good for scrap metal. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com
On 1/18/2018 2:23 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> They suck.
>
> Yep. Toss my hat in with yours. They worked OK for a short while, but after that they found different ways to fail.
>
> The only thing worse they sell in that line at HF? Those fricking squeeze clamps. I purchased carefully in the store, and within one job, all six clamps I bought wouldn't compress //at all//.
I've been using pipe clamps for 60 years, same clamps too, can't over
torque them and they work fine for cabinet makers all over the world for
as long as they've been making them. (mine were my dads, and are
probably over 70 years old.)
I bought 4 of the HF ratcheting squeeze clamps a while ago, under 3
bucks a piece. I didn't expect them to last, and they didn't. First the
plastic trigger pin broke, so I drilled the handle and put in a machine
screw. Then, the plastic end bracket cracked, so I replaced with
hardwood. Then, the plastic cam in the handle broke, so I beefed it up
with epoxy. Now the clamps pass as a light duty clamps and I use them
quite a bit. The weak point now might be the epoxy cam clamp thing-ee.
Been holding up but I try not to use all my strength in use.
Here is a picture of two of the fixes, I didn't bother taking the handle
apart to show the epoxy reinforcement.
http://jbstein.com/Flick/HFClamp.jpg
I only wasted my time with them for the challenge, and fill up some
putzing around time. People building stuff for a living shouldn't waste
their time. People like me that quit building stuff and would rather
putz around, well it's something to do. Had they put 50 cents worth of
metal where they fail, they would work ok, but what fun would that be.
As it was, I was IMPRESSED you could take the handle apart with screws.
--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com
On 1/22/18 3:10 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sunday, January 21, 2018 at 6:06:58 PM UTC-6, [email protected]
> wrote:
>
>> The point was that, even being one-hand squeeze clamps, they can
>> deliver a *lot* more force than the subject POS bar clamps. Many
>> here are denigrating the squeeze clamps but the Irwin 300s and
>> 600s are damn nice clamps. Haven't broken one yet.
>
> I have a lot of "squeeze" or trigger clamps, and I love them. I use
> them all the time for all kinds of stuff, they are literally another
> hand for me.
>
> 12 - 16' rip on the sawhorses and your helper is on the scaffold?
> Clamp one side, rip to the clamp, move the clamp behind you and
> finish your cut. Need to hold a template in place (like the
> aforementioned Kreg jig)? Clamp it down so that the bars are on the
> underside. I use them to hold material in place to sand, to hold
> pieces together that I am gluing, hold up long material so I can
> start nailing and work my way to the clamp. The list goes on.
>
> You are right that they hold well. Small glue ups are nothing for
> them, and I use them so much a few of my carpentry-centric
> contractor friends now carry them.
>
> I have had excellent luck with the DeWalt brand of clamps. Every
> Christmas HD has the 4 pack of large and small clamps on sale as
> stocking stuffers and buy them when they are on sale whether I need
> them or not when they mark them down after the holiday. Usually get
> them for about $19 - $20:
>
> https://goo.gl/R9g88f
>
> Likewise with Irwin brand which is usually at Lowes, which their
> clamps is one of the few things that Irwin makes that I would buy.
>
> I have a couple of 36" triggers (DeWalt makes a 50"!), but rarely
> use them. If I am going that big I usually drag out all my cabinet
> clamps as I am in a project.
>
> Robert
>
I have so many of those, I couldn't count.
When you work solo as much as I do, they end up being as ubiquitous as
tape measures or cordless drills. I have several everywhere I work--
the shop, the sharn, the van, and the truck-- so they are always there
when I need them.
Whenever they have a stupid cheap deal on the four-pack of little ones,
I buy a set just to rotate through the heard or to have hanging
somewhere convenient.
Irwin makes one that has jaws like a cabinet clamp. I have 2 and they
are really well made, functional, and surprisingly strong. The jaws
have a switch that lets them rotate on an axis (like usual) or lock at
90 degrees for parallel clamping.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com
On Sun, 21 Jan 2018 10:45:39 -0500
woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
> Side issue: Amazon is ending the America that I knew. They are in
> effect becoming a monopoly, and forcing many stores to close. While I
> am not a shopper, nor is my wife, all these empty stores are very
> noticeable. This will have repercussions in the building industry.
not disagreeing with the symptoms and retail across the board is
hurting badly
we are heading into a major correction
i think many of the empty stores would have become empty without
amazon
some questions to ponder
who let them operate with out charging sales tax for so long
i think they charge sales tax now
who let them ship for free
someone has to pay for the cost to ship
maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
bullied into absorbing the costs too
not a level playing field for sure and the small business cannot
compete when the competition gets subsidized to ship free and gets
sweetheart deals to open new warehouses or new hqs
On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:55:57 -0800
pyotr filipivich <[email protected]> wrote:
> Amazon charges $9 a month for "free" shipping.
is that the prime subscription
i was thinking more of the spend this much and get free shipping
some independent sellers actually bear the cost which is crazy
you are competing for pennies or at a loss
they also convinced some independents to ship their product to an
amazon warehouse then later they began charging them for storing
them in the warehouse
extorting just like a criminal organization
> They may have cut a deal with UPS/USPS for a discount, but
> they would not be the first.
maybe they did and maybe they are not the first but nothing is free
someone is bearing that cost for usps it is most likely the tax
payer and for ups maybe the unions and employees bear that or maybe
there are tax breaks for ups and so once again the tax payer aborbs
the cost
On 1/22/18 7:38 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:55:57 -0800, pyotr filipivich
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Electric Comet <[email protected]> on Mon, 22 Jan 2018
>> 11:52:16 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>>>
>>> who let them ship for free
>>> someone has to pay for the cost to ship
>>> maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
>>> bullied into absorbing the costs too
>>
>> Amazon charges $9 a month for "free" shipping.
>
> No, Prime is more than $9 (I think it just went up to $13) but they do
> free shipping on orders greater than $50, also.
>>
It's a lot more than just free shipping. There's a lot of online
content available.
Also, cheaper to pay by the year.
>> They may have cut a deal with UPS/USPS for a discount, but they
>> would not be the first.
>
> Yes, there are reports that they have a real sweetheart deal with
> USPS, subsidized by everyone in the US.
>
They may be the only thing besides junk mail keeping the USPS afloat.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com
On 1/22/18 10:00 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 1/22/2018 2:52 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>> On Sun, 21 Jan 2018 10:45:39 -0500
>> woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Side issue: Amazon is ending the America that I knew. They are in
>>> effect becoming a monopoly, and forcing many stores to close. While I
>>> am not a shopper, nor is my wife, all these empty stores are very
>>> noticeable. This will have repercussions in the building industry.
>>
>>
>> not disagreeing with the symptoms and retail across the board is
>> hurting badly
>>
>> we are heading into a major correction
>>
>> i think many of the empty stores would have become empty without
>> amazon
>>
> True many of the big box stores already did the major damage.
>
>> some questions to ponder
>>
>> who let them operate with out charging sales tax for so long
>> i think they charge sales tax now
>>
>> who let them ship for free
>
> There's no free shipping. Look at the prime price, it's much higher
> sometimes double the price of other vendors through Amazon.
I have not found that to be the case.
Do you have any examples?
Double the price? Really?
A good deal of the Prime products are stored at their "local" warehouses
which is one reason the shipping cost can be so low-- it's already close
to you.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com
On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 23:00:23 -0500
woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
> True many of the big box stores already did the major damage.
that and the change of hands of a lot of real estate upward to the small
percentage that already owned so much during the last bust
then once they own it they either leave those properties empty or ask
rents that are unsustainable and even take a portion of net profits
from the small retailers as part of the rent or lease
> There's no free shipping. Look at the prime price, it's much higher
> sometimes double the price of other vendors through Amazon.
> So prime is often higher priced to cover shipping.
> If you are not a prime customer and reach the free shipping, you are
> paying for it, it's built into the cost.
>
no
there is free shipping on amazon without prime
you spend over some amount and then the free shipping kicks in
not for all products as not all sellers offer it because it comes out
of the pocket of the seller
have you sold a lot on amazon
> Now Amazon is considering eliminating them. They have Jets, Trucks..
> etc.
trying to but remains to be seen
On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 09:55:29 -0800
pyotr filipivich <[email protected]> wrote:
> Yep. Not sure how it works out practically (am I buying more
> often because of "free" shopping, vs "saving up purchases" to qualify
> for "free" shipping.?).
i am buying locally
and if that is not possible i try to buy direct as many manufacturers
are selling direct now
if none of those are possible than i rethink the need or do without
so far have not had to use the amazon of last resort
On 1/18/2018 8:34 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:53:14 -0500, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On 1/18/18 10:13 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>> They suck.
>>>>
>>>> I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive clamping
>>>> tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them.
>>>> But they are around a quarter of that. If one breaks, I can still
>>>> buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.
>>>>
>>>> Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no
>>>> problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
>>>> simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
>>>>
>>>
>>> What's alight duty clamp, though.
>>
>> Beats me, I see little to no difference between the HF quick release clamps
>> and equivalent ones from Jorgenson et al. If anything, I'd say the the hf
>> ones - those sold now - are heftier. I use them to clamp all manner of
>> things.
>
> Not sure what a "quick release" clamp is (that's what the HF bar
> clamps do when the casting breaks ;-) but the HF clamps like the Irwin
Gorilla using a wine glass
> Quick Clamps aren't worth spit, either. It's not that they're light
> duty. They wouldn't work as paper clips.
So only Festool, Fein , Bessey are tools worthy?
>>> And shouldn't the jaws of even a light duty clamp stay at 90 degrees to
>>> the bar.
>>
>> IME, no clamps like this do that because the bar flexes as pressure is
>> applied. That's no problem as long as the clamp is properly positioned on
>> the work piece; i.e., if you don't try to make the clamp head perpendicular
>> to the work.
>
> Bessey K-Body clamps are pretty good. Even my Irwin Heaavy Duty Quick
> Clamps are a *lot* better. In fact the Irwins are the go-to setup
> clamps.
>>
So the word Heavy Duty doesn't mean a thing to you? You consider the
light duty not up to the task, because they don't do what the heavy are
capable of?
>>> Even if you're only edge banding plywood shelves, if the jaw faces don't
>>> stay straight, they will try to pull the banding off the edge of the
>>> plywood or at least put uneven pressure (more pressure on the bottom).
>>
>> See above.
>>
>>> They just aren't worth the money to me anymore. Not with the hassles
>>> that come with using them. About all I can use them for is
>>> supplementary clamping after real parallel clamps are in place.
>>
>> Your money, of course, but at 1/3 the cost or less of others, I'll stick
>> with HF.
>
> I once thought so. If they were worth the shipping, I'd send the lot
> to you. I'l never use them again.
>
--
Jeff
On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 17:47:58 -0800, Electric Comet
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:55:57 -0800
>pyotr filipivich <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Amazon charges $9 a month for "free" shipping.
>
>is that the prime subscription
>
>i was thinking more of the spend this much and get free shipping
Even with punctuation, the above wouldn't make any sense.
>some independent sellers actually bear the cost which is crazy
>you are competing for pennies or at a loss
Do you not understand the concept of competition? If you don't want
to sell on Prime or include the cost of shipping in your sales price,
don't. If you don't want to sell on Amazon, don't. You're free to
run your business as you see fit.
>they also convinced some independents to ship their product to an
>amazon warehouse then later they began charging them for storing
>them in the warehouse
Because it saves them money. Duh. Come on. Think! If it doesn't
save them money, they wouldn't do it.
>extorting just like a criminal organization
Utter nonsense.
>
>> They may have cut a deal with UPS/USPS for a discount, but
>> they would not be the first.
>maybe they did and maybe they are not the first but nothing is free
Of course not. You're paying in the cost of the product.
>someone is bearing that cost for usps it is most likely the tax
>payer and for ups maybe the unions and employees bear that or maybe
>there are tax breaks for ups and so once again the tax payer aborbs
>the cost
The unions are going to pay for Amazon to ship stuff? You're funny!
On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:55:57 -0800, pyotr filipivich
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Electric Comet <[email protected]> on Mon, 22 Jan 2018
>11:52:16 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>>
>>who let them ship for free
>>someone has to pay for the cost to ship
>>maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
>>bullied into absorbing the costs too
>
> Amazon charges $9 a month for "free" shipping.
No, Prime is more than $9 (I think it just went up to $13) but they do
free shipping on orders greater than $50, also.
>
> They may have cut a deal with UPS/USPS for a discount, but they
>would not be the first.
Yes, there are reports that they have a real sweetheart deal with
USPS, subsidized by everyone in the US.
Electric Comet <[email protected]> on Mon, 22 Jan 2018
17:47:58 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:55:57 -0800
>pyotr filipivich <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Amazon charges $9 a month for "free" shipping.
>
>is that the prime subscription
Yep. Not sure how it works out practically (am I buying more
often because of "free" shopping, vs "saving up purchases" to qualify
for "free" shipping.?).
>
>i was thinking more of the spend this much and get free shipping
>
>some independent sellers actually bear the cost which is crazy
>you are competing for pennies or at a loss
>
>they also convinced some independents to ship their product to an
>amazon warehouse then later they began charging them for storing
>them in the warehouse
>
>extorting just like a criminal organization
>
>
>> They may have cut a deal with UPS/USPS for a discount, but
>> they would not be the first.
>
>maybe they did and maybe they are not the first but nothing is free
>
>someone is bearing that cost for usps it is most likely the tax
>payer and for ups maybe the unions and employees bear that or maybe
>there are tax breaks for ups and so once again the tax payer aborbs
>the cost
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
On Sun, 21 Jan 2018 10:45:39 -0500, woodchucker <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 1/18/2018 12:39 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 08:13:26 -0800 (PST)
>> "Dr. Deb" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
>>> simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
>>
>>
>> very possible
>>
>> unreasonable expectations are common with consumers
>+1
>>
>> on a similar note amazon is weeding out some of these consumers that
>> send too many things back
>Side issue: Amazon is ending the America that I knew. They are in effect
>becoming a monopoly, and forcing many stores to close. While I am not a
>shopper, nor is my wife, all these empty stores are very noticeable.
>This will have repercussions in the building industry.
I suspect that Amazon's attempt at world conquest is going to end in
their overextending themselves and collapsing.
Reading about what they're doing with Whole Foods it sounds like they
have about as much clue about selling retail foods as Elon Musk does
about running a car factory.
On Sun, 21 Jan 2018 10:42:06 -0500, woodchucker <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 1/18/2018 8:34 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:53:14 -0500, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 1/18/18 10:13 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>>> They suck.
>>>>>
>>>>> I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive clamping
>>>>> tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them.
>>>>> But they are around a quarter of that. If one breaks, I can still
>>>>> buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no
>>>>> problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
>>>>> simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's alight duty clamp, though.
>>>
>>> Beats me, I see little to no difference between the HF quick release clamps
>>> and equivalent ones from Jorgenson et al. If anything, I'd say the the hf
>>> ones - those sold now - are heftier. I use them to clamp all manner of
>>> things.
>>
>> Not sure what a "quick release" clamp is (that's what the HF bar
>> clamps do when the casting breaks ;-) but the HF clamps like the Irwin
>Gorilla using a wine glass
>> Quick Clamps aren't worth spit, either. It's not that they're light
>> duty. They wouldn't work as paper clips.
>So only Festool, Fein , Bessey are tools worthy?
>
>
>>>> And shouldn't the jaws of even a light duty clamp stay at 90 degrees to
>>>> the bar.
>>>
>>> IME, no clamps like this do that because the bar flexes as pressure is
>>> applied. That's no problem as long as the clamp is properly positioned on
>>> the work piece; i.e., if you don't try to make the clamp head perpendicular
>>> to the work.
>>
>> Bessey K-Body clamps are pretty good. Even my Irwin Heaavy Duty Quick
>> Clamps are a *lot* better. In fact the Irwins are the go-to setup
>> clamps.
>>>
>So the word Heavy Duty doesn't mean a thing to you? You consider the
>light duty not up to the task, because they don't do what the heavy are
>capable of?
>
The point was that, even being one-hand squeeze clamps, they can
deliver a *lot* more force than the subject POS bar clamps. Many here
are denigrating the squeeze clamps but the Irwin 300s and 600s are
damn nice clamps. Haven't broken one yet.
On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 18:46:29 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
<[email protected]> wrote:
>They suck.
Those look like the ones I've had the head castings break. Yep, they
suck eggs.
On 1/20/2018 8:58 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
>
>>
>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>> They suck.
>>>
>>> I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive clamping tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them. But they are around a quarter of that. If one breaks, I can still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.
>>
>> Except that they break when you *need* them, not when they're hanging
>> on the wall looking pretty. If I can't trust a tool, I don't want it
>> around.
>>
>>> Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
>>
>> Bar clamps shouldn't be "light duty". They didn't bend. The damned
>> thins broke, with just moderate pressure. My Irwin Quick Clamps will
>> do 10x the clamping force. ...and they aren't designed for such.
>
> I hate to say this, but if your joints were made better, you would not need so much force. If you have to jam them together, something is wrong with the joint.
This is true but if you are gluing up a table top that is 5~8' long it
is difficult to get a perfectly straight edge. Not even plywood has
straight edges these days. Not unusual for a board to be straight this
morning and bowed a bit this afternoon, depending on the humidity.
>
> I always heard the rule of thumb for a mortise and tenon was that they should fit so that you could knock them together with your hat.
>
On 1/20/2018 11:32 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/20/18 11:15 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 1/20/2018 8:58 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>>> They suck.
>>>>>
>>>>> I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive
>>>>> clamping tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them.
>>>>> But they are around a quarter of that.  If one breaks, I can still
>>>>> buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.
>>>>
>>>> Except that they break when you *need* them, not when they're hanging
>>>> on the wall looking pretty. If I can't trust a tool, I don't want it
>>>> around.
>>>>
>>>>> Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no
>>>>> problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
>>>>> simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?
>>>>
>>>> Bar clamps shouldn't be "light duty". They didn't bend. The damned
>>>> thins broke, with just moderate pressure. My Irwin Quick Clamps will
>>>> do 10x the clamping force. ...and they aren't designed for such.
>>>
>>> I hate to say this, but if your joints were made better, you would
>>> not need so much force. If you have to jam them together, something
>>> is wrong with the joint.
>>
>> This is true but if you are gluing up a table top that is 5~8' long it
>> is difficult to get a perfectly straight edge. Not even plywood has
>> straight edges these days. Not unusual for a board to be straight
>> this morning and bowed a bit this afternoon, depending on the humidity.
>>
>
> Or they bow after planing. You can't keep going back to the jointer or
> table saw to correct every little warp. Sometimes, you wouldn't have any
> board left.
>
> In any case, or in the case of perfectly straight and flat boards for a
> panel glue-up, what good is a clamp like this....
> http://mikedrums.com/HF_Bar_Clamp.JPG
Hopefully you were not checking that clamp with a Harbor Freight square.
;~)