wow, good quote

My guess would be working on Nuclear Missles. You have control of power
in your hands and the radiation does wonders to your organ.

It's funny how some of us woodworking folk like to get so precise, when
wood by its very nature is so imprecise. Measurements beyond about
1/64" are meaningless, and for most purposes, 1/32" is plenty precise.
I have a super-cheapo plastic dial caliper from Big Lots. It easily
gets me within 1/64" accuracy.

You see a lot of measurements on the rec going to 3 or 4 decimal
places. You basically have to be in a clean-room to measure something
to 4 decimal places.

Just my thoughs.... no intent to offend.

Mike Marlow wrote:

> Well, Harbor Freight is certainly not "great", but not everything there is
> useless either. Things like their dial calipers, digital calipers, and

> more money for things if cheaper ones do the job well. More expensive
> ones don't do the job better.

I never said anything about whether they were any good or not, and I'm not
claiming they aren't fine. All I said (on that forum) was something to the
effect of "if you want to pay a little more to buy from a good outfit, then
check out Lee Valley."

I stand behind that any day. I'm a big LV fanboy, like many of their other
customers. I've bought from HF, and I have some HF tools, but buying from
LV is like letting German chocolate melt in your mouth, while HF is like
letting loose a good fart. Both are satisfying in their own way.

>> someone I will leave anonymous for his/her privacy:
>
> Too late for that - it was posted to a public forum, wasn't it?

Not one that is archived by Google, no. I don't think.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Supplied, of course by the lowest bidder....

"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> One of the most recent messages in that thread ended with this quote, by
> someone I will leave anonymous for his/her privacy:
>
> "When I was working on nuclear missiles, we used the more expensive
> calipers. I kind of liked that."

"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 01:32:32 GMT, "Frank Ketchum"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >"George" <george@least> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> Supplied, of course by the lowest bidder....
> >>
> >
> >Not if it was a government contract.
> >
>
> You don't get out much, do you?
>
> It may not always be cheap, but it almost always is the lowest
[credible]
> bidder.
>
>

He might be thinking of cost plus no-bid contracts.

On 8 Dec 2004 10:53:35 -0800, "Chuck" <[email protected]> wrote:

>It's funny how some of us woodworking folk like to get so precise, when
>wood by its very nature is so imprecise. Measurements beyond about
>1/64" are meaningless, and for most purposes, 1/32" is plenty precise.
>I have a super-cheapo plastic dial caliper from Big Lots. It easily
>gets me within 1/64" accuracy.
>
>You see a lot of measurements on the rec going to 3 or 4 decimal
>places. You basically have to be in a clean-room to measure something
>to 4 decimal places.
>
>Just my thoughs.... no intent to offend.

So you'd be plenty happy with jointing wood that has 1/32" deviation
across it? i.e, the gap would be 1/16".

Or a dovetail with a 1/32" gap?


Sometimes even woodworking needs higher precision than 1/64". That
doesn't mean the wood won't move later, but for jointing, 1/64" is a pretty
serious gap.

Wed, Dec 8, 2004, 1:42am [email protected] (Silvan) says:
<snip> "When I was working on nuclear missiles, we used the more
expensive calipers. I kind of liked that."

OK, which was it he liked? The more xpensive calipers? Or working
on nuclear missiles?



JOAT
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind dont
matter, and those who matter dont mind.
- Dr Seuss

Chuck wrote:

> It's funny how some of us woodworking folk like to get so
> precise, when wood by its very nature is so imprecise.
> Measurements beyond about 1/64" are meaningless, and for most
> purposes, 1/32" is plenty precise. I have a super-cheapo
> plastic dial caliper from Big Lots. It easily gets me within
> 1/64" accuracy.
>
> You see a lot of measurements on the rec going to 3 or 4
> decimal places. You basically have to be in a clean-room to
> measure something to 4 decimal places.

I'll agree that four decimal places is probably overkill; but I'm
not so sure about three decimal places. That fourth digit may be
significant if dimensions are calculated - but only to the extent
that it minimizes round-off errors in intermediate calculations.

Errors in thousandths of an inch can be seen and felt in fine
furniture projects - and are usually handled with either a tiny
bit of glue (a very slightly thicker glue line) or with a gentle
sandpaper rubbing - or a combination of both.

I have shop equipment that cuts wood reliably within a ±0.0015"
tolerance - and I routinely check parts for ±0.001 tolerances. I
expect my glue lines to be detectable only by the interruption of
grain patterns. I could probably get by with a lesser precision;
but it's important to me to know that I'm doing the best job
possible on those parts.

I have the (Swiss made) General plastic digital caliper and the
(Chinese made) LV stainless digital caliper - and they both seem
to do a good job of measuring in the 0-6" range.

But I also do a lot of things that don't require that kind of
ultra-picky attention - and these are layed out, fixtured, and
cut with a lesser (1/64" or 1/32") precision; and I'm comfortable
with that.

> Just my thoughs.... no intent to offend.

And no offense taken. You might get a giggle out of the fact that
the stuff made to the most exacting tolerances in my shop all
gets a couple of coats of paint before it goes out the door - so
it's unlikely that anyone will ever actually /see/ those joints.

The less precise stuff is likely to get a coat or three of
varnish so that everyone can see how sloppy it is. (-8

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

"George" <george@least> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Supplied, of course by the lowest bidder....
>

Not if it was a government contract.

"Chuck" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> It's funny how some of us woodworking folk like to get so precise, when
> wood by its very nature is so imprecise. Measurements beyond about
> 1/64" are meaningless, and for most purposes, 1/32" is plenty precise.
> I have a super-cheapo plastic dial caliper from Big Lots. It easily
> gets me within 1/64" accuracy.
>
> You see a lot of measurements on the rec going to 3 or 4 decimal
> places. You basically have to be in a clean-room to measure something
> to 4 decimal places.
>
> Just my thoughs.... no intent to offend.
>

That's exactly the thinking that I was experiencing. It's probably no big
deal in the end, but I do get a bit of a chuckle when we get sooooo focused
on stuff that really does not matter. Precision that is orders of magnitude
greater than we can achieve with the tools we use, the medium we use, etc.
I know that I do it also, but it still amuses me. Sometimes I think it's
worth a simple comment just in the name of passing along better advice to
folks to chat with. Having our own little idiosyncrasies is one thing but
they shouldn't really enter into the advice we pass along... at least
without the caveat that they are indeed our own little idiosyncrasies.

I too have a cheapo dial caliper from HF and a digital caliper also. I
didn't expect them to be accurate to the degree necessary to build rocket
ships and nuclear reactors when I bought them, and I paid a price
reflective of that. They certainly are more than accurate enough for what I
use them for. I did compare my $13.00 digital calipers to a friend's $65.00
pair and they read the same. Don't know if that's enough to convince some,
but it works for me.
--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Sandman wrote:

> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>> My guess would be working on Nuclear Missles. You have
>> control of power in your hands and the radiation does
>> wonders to your organ.
>
> will it help my piano as well?

Only if you're playing roentgen scales in a minor key.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> My guess would be working on Nuclear Missles. You have control of power
> in your hands and the radiation does wonders to your organ.
>

will it help my piano as well?

"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> but buying from
> LV is like letting German chocolate melt in your mouth, while HF is like
> letting loose a good fart. Both are satisfying in their own way.
>

Don't do that crap Michael! These were clean pants.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 8 Dec 2004 10:53:35 -0800, "Chuck" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>It's funny how some of us woodworking folk like to get so precise, when
>wood by its very nature is so imprecise.......

Measure it with a micrometer...
Mark it with chalk...
Cut it with an axe.

(just measure twice before cutting)

On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 01:32:32 GMT, "Frank Ketchum"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"George" <george@least> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Supplied, of course by the lowest bidder....
>>
>
>Not if it was a government contract.
>

You don't get out much, do you?

It may not always be cheap, but it almost always is the lowest [credible]
bidder.

On 8 Dec 2004 03:28:33 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>My guess would be working on Nuclear Missles. You have control of power
>in your hands and the radiation does wonders to your organ.

Well that's good, so long as it's not the other way around.

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 16:45:10 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> This is from a trumpet mailing list. Somebody recommended HF cheapass
>dial
>> calipers, and I stepped into let anyone looking to buy tool-like things
>> know about Lee Valley, because I couldn't let a "Harbor Freight is great"
>> post go unchallenged. (That's my third referral this month, Rob. When do
>> I get the free low angle block plane?)
>
>Well, Harbor Freight is certainly not "great", but not everything there is
>useless either. Things like their dial calipers, digital calipers, and
>other things are perfectly acceptable tools and you really don't do the
>fella a service by suggesting otherwise. Like everything else, it's a
>matter of what you need, not a matter of what the tool "can" do for you. If
>it does what you need of it, then it's a good tool. There's no need to pay
>more money for things if cheaper ones do the job well. More expensive ones
>don't do the job better.
>
>Then of course, there's the remaining stuff that just doesn't even do the
>job well...
>
>>
>> One of the most recent messages in that thread ended with this quote, by
>> someone I will leave anonymous for his/her privacy:
>
>Too late for that - it was posted to a public forum, wasn't it?
>
>>
>> "When I was working on nuclear missiles, we used the more expensive
>> calipers. I kind of liked that."
>>
>
>Yeahbut, what he didn't tell you is that his expensive calipers were sent
>off to PMEL every couple of months for calibration. Even cheap tools can
>perform extremely well with that kind of treatment.

Not necessarily. Every couple of months? I've used "Import" calipers
at work that had to be calibrated before every measurement- and that
was just to get them to be accurate to within 15 thousandths. Even
then, they were obviously not trustworthy, and I still double-checked
parts with my handy cabinetmaker's rule. Some cheap tools may be able
to do it, but not all of them- not by a long shot! The big difference
is in what you feel you need to use when it comes to calipers. If you
feel you must have a cheap dial or digital caliper, prepared to be
disappointed if you use the sucker much, especially under less than
ideal conditions. OTOH, a vernier caliper will usually stay right on
longer, and there are less parts to wear out or break. They're a
little harder to read, but the price and accuracy difference make them
a bargin, at least in my experience.
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam

"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> This is from a trumpet mailing list. Somebody recommended HF cheapass
dial
> calipers, and I stepped into let anyone looking to buy tool-like things
> know about Lee Valley, because I couldn't let a "Harbor Freight is great"
> post go unchallenged. (That's my third referral this month, Rob. When do
> I get the free low angle block plane?)

Well, Harbor Freight is certainly not "great", but not everything there is
useless either. Things like their dial calipers, digital calipers, and
other things are perfectly acceptable tools and you really don't do the
fella a service by suggesting otherwise. Like everything else, it's a
matter of what you need, not a matter of what the tool "can" do for you. If
it does what you need of it, then it's a good tool. There's no need to pay
more money for things if cheaper ones do the job well. More expensive ones
don't do the job better.

Then of course, there's the remaining stuff that just doesn't even do the
job well...

>
> One of the most recent messages in that thread ended with this quote, by
> someone I will leave anonymous for his/her privacy:

Too late for that - it was posted to a public forum, wasn't it?

>
> "When I was working on nuclear missiles, we used the more expensive
> calipers. I kind of liked that."
>

Yeahbut, what he didn't tell you is that his expensive calipers were sent
off to PMEL every couple of months for calibration. Even cheap tools can
perform extremely well with that kind of treatment.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
> Errors in thousandths of an inch can be seen and felt in fine
> furniture projects - and are usually handled with either a tiny
> bit of glue (a very slightly thicker glue line) or with a gentle
> sandpaper rubbing - or a combination of both.

That's what most of us would feel I believe. Forgo worrying about the very
small errors like that in favor of a light scruff with sandpaper. Heck -
it's going to get it anyway...

>
> I have shop equipment that cuts wood reliably within a ±0.0015"
> tolerance - and I routinely check parts for ±0.001 tolerances. I
> expect my glue lines to be detectable only by the interruption of
> grain patterns. I could probably get by with a lesser precision;
> but it's important to me to know that I'm doing the best job
> possible on those parts.

That's where the rubber hits the road. You do it because it matters to you
and that's a good enough reason, not because that degree of precision is
necessary with the work at hand. After all, if we can't satisfy ourselves,
our time in the shop becomes pretty damned tedious.

>
>
> And no offense taken. You might get a giggle out of the fact that
> the stuff made to the most exacting tolerances in my shop all
> gets a couple of coats of paint before it goes out the door - so
> it's unlikely that anyone will ever actually /see/ those joints.

Oh man Morris - that ain't even right!

>
> The less precise stuff is likely to get a coat or three of
> varnish so that everyone can see how sloppy it is. (-8
>

Penance?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 16:45:10 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> This is from a trumpet mailing list. Somebody recommended HF cheapass
>dial
>> calipers, and I stepped into let anyone looking to buy tool-like things
>> know about Lee Valley, because I couldn't let a "Harbor Freight is great"
>> post go unchallenged. (That's my third referral this month, Rob. When do
>> I get the free low angle block plane?)
>
>Well, Harbor Freight is certainly not "great", but not everything there is
>useless either. Things like their dial calipers, digital calipers, and
>other things are perfectly acceptable tools and you really don't do the
>fella a service by suggesting otherwise. Like everything else, it's a
>matter of what you need, not a matter of what the tool "can" do for you. If
>it does what you need of it, then it's a good tool. There's no need to pay
>more money for things if cheaper ones do the job well. More expensive ones
>don't do the job better.
>
>Then of course, there's the remaining stuff that just doesn't even do the
>job well...
>
>>
>> One of the most recent messages in that thread ended with this quote, by
>> someone I will leave anonymous for his/her privacy:
>
>Too late for that - it was posted to a public forum, wasn't it?
>
>>
>> "When I was working on nuclear missiles, we used the more expensive
>> calipers. I kind of liked that."
>>
>
>Yeahbut, what he didn't tell you is that his expensive calipers were sent
>off to PMEL every couple of months for calibration. Even cheap tools can
>perform extremely well with that kind of treatment.

Knowing the way the government works, they probably paid $2,000 for HF
calipers..

"J T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Wed, Dec 8, 2004, 1:42am [email protected] (Silvan) says:
> <snip> "When I was working on nuclear missiles, we used the more
> expensive calipers. I kind of liked that."
>
> OK, which was it he liked? The more xpensive calipers? Or working
> on nuclear missiles?
>

Perhaps that he used to work on nukes, not anymore.

Frank