Anyone know what the code in NC is for outlet spacing in a garage? I want =
to add another circuit (15A 120V)and the easiest for me is to drop straight=
down below the breaker panel. Problem is I have already done that for ano=
ther circuit (240V). If I am required to be separated form the first outle=
t by a code distance then I am going to need to drill through wall studs (c=
ringe).
On Thursday, February 7, 2013 9:33:06 PM UTC-5, Doug Winterburn wrote:
> On 02/07/2013 07:06 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, February 7, 2013 9:00:59 PM UTC-5, Doug Winterburn wrote:
>
> >> On 02/07/2013 05:01 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>> On Thursday, February 7, 2013 5:57:48 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>> Bought it today at the BORG. 15A GFI. I hate having to use those
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>> but they are code in my garage-a-shop.
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>> I despise 15A circuits since they are limited to 12 FLA. (80% of
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>> nameplate)
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>> For basically the same cost, 20A circuits provide 16 FLA. (80% of
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>> nameplate)
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>> Lew
>
> >>
>
> >>>
>
> >>
>
> >>> Lew - I use a lot of extension cords in my shop that are only rated to carry 15A. I need my 15A breakers to trip as designed. This outlet will be used w/ extension cords.
>
> >>
>
> >>>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> I have 2 20A/120V and 2 20A/240V circuits in my gar^H^H^Hshop. I use
>
> >>
>
> >> extension cords on all, and they are 12 gauge cords, even though not all
>
> >>
>
> >> equipment draws more than 15 amps.
>
> >
>
> > Then all you need is a 15A breaker.
>
> >
>
>
>
> However, some equipment requires more than 15A or even 20A breaker (such
>
> as my compressor which I converted to 240V because it was tripping a
>
> 20A/120V breaker)). Also, More than one piece of equipment can be run
>
> at the same time as long as their current requirements don't exceed the
>
> capacity of a 20A breaker - such as a sander and a vac. Why install a
>
> gas tank with the capacity to only get you half way there?
>
>
>
> As the NEC says, the breaker is there to protect the house wiring, not
>
> the devices, extension cords or anything else that is connected.
According to NEC, the breaker is there to break the circuit when the circuit Amp draw exceeds what is rated for the circuit.
'ANYTHING' connected to the breaker that is open/running, *IS* part of the circuit.
> If the
>
> house breaker was the complete protection, why would most large motors
>
> have a built in breaker? If you use extension cords, use ones that are
>
> rated for current draw at the length needed for the connected device.
Agreed. Which is why I had to add another circuit - I was exceeding the amp rating/tripping breakers.
>
>
>
> What ever saving you think you are getting by using smaller breakers
>
> than the feed wire is rated for is a false saving. The same with 14 or
>
> 16 ga vs 12ga extension cords.
I saved money by using a smaller breaker. It allowed me to use my existing extension cords.
>
>
>
> --
>
> "Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
>
> gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
>
> -Winston Churchill
On Thursday, February 7, 2013 2:43:31 PM UTC-5, Doug Miller wrote:
> [email protected] wrote in
>
> news:[email protected]:
>
>
>
> > Anyone know what the code in NC is for outlet spacing in a
>
> > garage? I want to add another circuit (15A 120V)and the easiest
>
> > for me is to drop straight down below the breaker panel.
>
> > Problem is I have already done that for another circuit (240V).
>
> > If I am required to be separated form the first outlet by a code
>
> > distance then I am going to need to drill through wall studs
>
>
>
> I can't speak to what your state codes might say... but I've never seen anything in the National
>
> Electrical Code that dictates any *minimum* spacing between outlets anywhere. There are
>
> rules regarding *maximum* spacing (e.g. no point on a wall may be more than __ inches away
>
> from an outlet), but not minimum spacing AFAIK.
Cool. Sounds like I'm good to go. The wealth of knowledge on the wrec never stops amazing me.
On Thursday, February 7, 2013 5:57:48 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> >> [email protected] wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Bought it today at the BORG. 15A GFI. I hate having to use those
>
> > but they are code in my garage-a-shop.
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> I despise 15A circuits since they are limited to 12 FLA. (80% of
>
> nameplate)
>
>
>
> For basically the same cost, 20A circuits provide 16 FLA. (80% of
>
> nameplate)
>
>
>
>
>
> Lew
Lew - I use a lot of extension cords in my shop that are only rated to carry 15A. I need my 15A breakers to trip as designed. This outlet will be used w/ extension cords.
woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2/7/2013 5:57 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>> Bought it today at the BORG. 15A GFI. I hate having to use those
>>> but they are code in my garage-a-shop.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> I despise 15A circuits since they are limited to 12 FLA. (80% of
>> nameplate)
>>
>> For basically the same cost, 20A circuits provide 16 FLA. (80% of
>> nameplate)
>>
>>
>> Lew
>>
>>
>>
> What is the 12 FLA and 16 FLA???
>
80% of 15 and 20 respectively.
On Thursday, February 7, 2013 7:53:58 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Lew - I use a lot of extension cords in my shop that are only rated
>
> > to carry 15A. I need my 15A breakers to trip as designed. This
>
> > outlet will be used w/ extension cords.
>
> -------------------------------------------
>
> If that makes you warm and fuzzy, so be it; however, the ONLY
>
> function of that c'bkr in the panel, is to protect the insulation on
>
> the wire that connects the c'bkr and the GFI receptacle.
>
>
>
> Whether you plug a 15A extension cord or a small lamp with some
>
> 20 AWG rip cord into the receptacle is not relevant.
>
>
>
> The c'bkr is not designed to protect conductors that are not a
>
> permanent part of the distribution system which is what an
>
> extension cord is not.
I thought they were designed to protect the entire circuit which includes anything that becomes a part of the circuit when connected to it?
Is it a good idea to continuously draw amps in excess of what is rated for a particular extension cord? Wouldn't the breaker trip if I exceed 15A?
>
>
> An extension cord is strictly a temporary device.
Not in my shop. :)
>
>
> A common misunderstanding concerning over current protection of
>
> distribution systems.
>
>
>
> Lew
[email protected] wrote:
> want to add another circuit (15A 120V)and the easiest for me is to
> drop
>
> straight down below the breaker panel.
------------------------------------------------------
Run 12 AWG wire and install 20A receptacles.
Lew
On Sat, 9 Feb 2013 22:00:54 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Mike M <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 01:47:31 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] wrote in
>>>news:3d5c0e5f-efb2-4c76-aa25-b1a16811cc76 @googlegroups.com:
>>>
>>>> On Thursday, February 7, 2013 5:57:48 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I despise 15A circuits since they are limited to 12 FLA. (80%
>>>>> of nameplate)
>>>>>
>>>>> For basically the same cost, 20A circuits provide 16 FLA.
>>>>> (80% of nameplate)
>>>
>>>Here we go again.
>>>
>>>@Lew: For *at least* the 4th time -- the 80% limitation applies
>>>*only* to continuous loads, not to general use.
>>>
>>>@everyone_else: ignore Lew. He doesn't understand this part of
>>>the NEC. He also doesn't understand that 12ga wire (for 20A
>>>circuits) is noticeably more expensive than 14ga wire (for 15A
>>>circuits). The breakers cost the same, yes, but the wire is not
>>>"basically the same cost".
>>
>> I have to disagree with you on this one.
>>
>> (A) 15- and 20-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 15- or 20-
>> ampere branch circuit shall be permitted to supply lighting
>> units or other utilization equipment, or a combination of
>> both, and shall comply with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2).
>> Exception: The small-appliance branch circuits, laundry
>> branch circuits, and bathroom branch circuits required in a
>> dwelling unit(s) by 210.11(C)(1), (C)(2), and (C)(3) shall
>> supply only the receptacle outlets specified in that section.
>> (1) Cord-and-Plug-Connected Equipment Not Fastened
>> in Place. The rating of any one cord-and-plug-connected
>> utilization equipment not fastened in place shall not exceed
>> 80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating.
>
>Read it more carefully, Mike: "the rating of ANY ONE
>cord-and-plug-connected utilization equiment... shall not exceed
>80 percent ..."
>
>Lew maintains that the *entire circuit* is limited to 80 percent
>of its rating, and that just isn't true.
I was just pointing out there are restrictions on cord connected
loads. Actually if the cord is connected to a fixed piece of
equipment the restriction drops to 50%. I don't disagree with you
about how Lew's statement though there are scenarios other then
continous duty that have load restrictions. Brian doesn't sound like
he plans on connecting that much load to it so he should be covered.
On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 22:56:00 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in news:511496c2$0$58152$c3e8da3
>[email protected]:
>
>> As soon as you mount the c'bkr in an enclosure, you must apply
>> a thermal derate, since we are talking about thermal devices,
>> to the full capacity of the c'bkr which by NEC standard is 20%.
>
>And what article of the NEC says that, Lew?
>
>I've asked you repeatedly to cite the portion of the Code that backs up that claim.
>
>Now put up, or shut up.
Don't know about code, but if a breaker is in a closed enclosure
which causes ambient temperatures to go up, the breaker must be
derated - as shown in the tables at
http://www.bdbreakers.com/breakertypes.php
This is from Seimens.
[email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:
> On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 22:56:00 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in news:511496c2$0$58152$c3e8da3
>>[email protected]:
>>
>>> As soon as you mount the c'bkr in an enclosure, you must apply
>>> a thermal derate, since we are talking about thermal devices,
>>> to the full capacity of the c'bkr which by NEC standard is 20%.
>>
>>And what article of the NEC says that, Lew?
>>
>>I've asked you repeatedly to cite the portion of the Code that backs up that claim.
>>
>>Now put up, or shut up.
> Don't know about code, but if a breaker is in a closed enclosure
> which causes ambient temperatures to go up, the breaker must be
> derated - as shown in the tables at
> http://www.bdbreakers.com/breakertypes.php
What Lew doesn't understand is that the derating depends on the temperature, not on the
fact of the breaker being in an enclosure. He seems to not realize that breakers are
*normally* in an enclosure such as a breaker box... and keeps claiming that the NEC
requires this derating, but for some reason can't ever manage to say exactly where the
NEC says that.
On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 22:56:00 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
>And what article of the NEC says that, Lew?
>I've asked you repeatedly to cite the portion of the Code that backs up that claim.
>Now put up, or shut up.
And if he does, you'll find some irrelevant comment to use as an
excuse to plonk him and remove yourself from the conversation.
*That* is your modus operandi.
[email protected] wrote:
> I ran 12 wire with a 15A breaker and receptacle. Should be plenty
> for what I'm using it for.
--------------------------------------------
Swap the 15A c'bkr for a 20 A and the next guy will be able to take
advantage or your work.
Lew
[email protected] wrote:
>
> I even used a GFI receptacle
-----------------------------------
You sure that isn't a 20A GFI?
Lew
On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 18:51:19 -0800 (PST), [email protected]
wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> As the NEC says, the breaker is there to protect the house wiring, not
>>
>> the devices, extension cords or anything else that is connected.
>
>According to NEC, the breaker is there to break the circuit when the circuit Amp draw exceeds what is rated for the circuit.
>
>'ANYTHING' connected to the breaker that is open/running, *IS* part of the circuit.
But even a 15 A breaker does nothing to protect a #18 lamp cord in
case of a short or mis-use.
>
>
>> If the
>>
>> house breaker was the complete protection, why would most large motors
>>
>> have a built in breaker? If you use extension cords, use ones that are
>>
>> rated for current draw at the length needed for the connected device.
>
>
>Agreed. Which is why I had to add another circuit - I was exceeding the amp rating/tripping breakers.
>
>>
>>
>>
>> What ever saving you think you are getting by using smaller breakers
>>
>> than the feed wire is rated for is a false saving. The same with 14 or
>>
>> 16 ga vs 12ga extension cords.
>
>I saved money by using a smaller breaker. It allowed me to use my existing extension cords.
Use the small cord with a 15 amp power bar on the end - and the
breaker on the power bar will trip instead of the 20 in the panel -
protecting your cord and saving you a trip to the panel every time it
trips.
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> "Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
>>
>> gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
>>
>> -Winston Churchill
>> [email protected] wrote:
>
> Bought it today at the BORG. 15A GFI. I hate having to use those
> but they are code in my garage-a-shop.
--------------------------------------------------------
I despise 15A circuits since they are limited to 12 FLA. (80% of
nameplate)
For basically the same cost, 20A circuits provide 16 FLA. (80% of
nameplate)
Lew
On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 13:00:32 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
<[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> Anything connected to the circuit is part of the circuit. When
>> nothing is connected to the receptacle that is consuming power,
>> the circuit is open and does not allow for a current. This is
>> what matters and what applies here. An open circuit is not
>> *technically* a circuit.
>
>I understand that electrically speaking, it is part of the circuit. I'm familiar with the physics
>involved, and you need not explain it to me.
>
>Do you understand that *as far as the NEC is concerned* it's *not* part of the circuit?
As far as Brian is concerned, it is. ;-) He does have a point.
Personally, I'd use a 20A circuit with 15A outlets (plural). None of
my tools have 20A plugs so the extra expense of the outlets is wasted.
BTW, all of the 15A GFCIs I've seen are rated for 20A feed through
(20A circuits), as are 15A outlets.
>"Branch Circuit: the circuit conductors between the final overcurrent device protecting the
>circuit and the outlet(s)" [2005 NEC, Article 100]
>
>This definition specifically *excludes* as part of the circuit anything that is plugged into the
>outlet.
Brian's concern goes beyond the structure. Unlike the building codes,
he knows something about his intended use.
On 02/07/2013 05:01 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thursday, February 7, 2013 6:56:10 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
>> On 2/7/2013 4:11 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 11:47:48 -0800 (PST), [email protected]
>>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>>>> On Thursday, February 7, 2013 2:43:31 PM UTC-5, Doug Miller wrote:
>>
>>>>> [email protected] wrote in
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Anyone know what the code in NC is for outlet spacing in a
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> garage? I want to add another circuit (15A 120V)and the easiest
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> for me is to drop straight down below the breaker panel.
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Problem is I have already done that for another circuit (240V).
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> If I am required to be separated form the first outlet by a code
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> distance then I am going to need to drill through wall studs
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Swing by your local Home Depot and pick up a stubby Bosch Daredevil
>>
>>> spade bit. They're by far the most aggressive beasties I've ever used
>>
>>> in my life. Scary-fast and only about $3.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> --
>>
>>> Newman's First Law:
>>
>>> It is useless to put on your brakes when you're upside down.
>>
>>> --Paul Newman
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I am planning on running some new circuit in my garage before putting up
>>
>> dry wall and finishing. What are the regulation for those holes I will
>>
>> have to put through the studs to run the wires. I can not go into the
>>
>> ceiling and drop down through the header to go between studs.
>>
>>
>>
>> I can not believe they are building garages with only 15amp circuits.
>
> You'll be glad they are when you're using extension cords rated at 15A.
>
Soooo, you wouldn't let your wife plug a 1000W hair dryer into a 20A
circuit?
--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill
[email protected] wrote:
>
> Lew - I use a lot of extension cords in my shop that are only rated
> to carry 15A. I need my 15A breakers to trip as designed. This
> outlet will be used w/ extension cords.
-------------------------------------------
If that makes you warm and fuzzy, so be it; however, the ONLY
function of that c'bkr in the panel, is to protect the insulation on
the wire that connects the c'bkr and the GFI receptacle.
Whether you plug a 15A extension cord or a small lamp with some
20 AWG rip cord into the receptacle is not relevant.
The c'bkr is not designed to protect conductors that are not a
permanent part of the distribution system which is what an
extension cord is not.
An extension cord is strictly a temporary device.
A common misunderstanding concerning over current protection of
distribution systems.
Lew
On 02/07/2013 05:01 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thursday, February 7, 2013 5:57:48 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Bought it today at the BORG. 15A GFI. I hate having to use those
>>
>>> but they are code in my garage-a-shop.
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I despise 15A circuits since they are limited to 12 FLA. (80% of
>>
>> nameplate)
>>
>>
>>
>> For basically the same cost, 20A circuits provide 16 FLA. (80% of
>>
>> nameplate)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Lew
>
> Lew - I use a lot of extension cords in my shop that are only rated to carry 15A. I need my 15A breakers to trip as designed. This outlet will be used w/ extension cords.
>
I have 2 20A/120V and 2 20A/240V circuits in my gar^H^H^Hshop. I use
extension cords on all, and they are 12 gauge cords, even though not all
equipment draws more than 15 amps.
Think about this - most household appliances that run on 15A circuits
use lamp cord that is either 16 or 18 gauge, which is not rated for 15A.
Why do you suppose that is?
--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill
On 02/07/2013 07:06 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thursday, February 7, 2013 9:00:59 PM UTC-5, Doug Winterburn wrote:
>> On 02/07/2013 05:01 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, February 7, 2013 5:57:48 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>
>>>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Bought it today at the BORG. 15A GFI. I hate having to use those
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> but they are code in my garage-a-shop.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> I despise 15A circuits since they are limited to 12 FLA. (80% of
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> nameplate)
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> For basically the same cost, 20A circuits provide 16 FLA. (80% of
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> nameplate)
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Lew
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Lew - I use a lot of extension cords in my shop that are only rated to carry 15A. I need my 15A breakers to trip as designed. This outlet will be used w/ extension cords.
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have 2 20A/120V and 2 20A/240V circuits in my gar^H^H^Hshop. I use
>>
>> extension cords on all, and they are 12 gauge cords, even though not all
>>
>> equipment draws more than 15 amps.
>
> Then all you need is a 15A breaker.
>
However, some equipment requires more than 15A or even 20A breaker (such
as my compressor which I converted to 240V because it was tripping a
20A/120V breaker)). Also, More than one piece of equipment can be run
at the same time as long as their current requirements don't exceed the
capacity of a 20A breaker - such as a sander and a vac. Why install a
gas tank with the capacity to only get you half way there?
As the NEC says, the breaker is there to protect the house wiring, not
the devices, extension cords or anything else that is connected. If the
house breaker was the complete protection, why would most large motors
have a built in breaker? If you use extension cords, use ones that are
rated for current draw at the length needed for the connected device.
What ever saving you think you are getting by using smaller breakers
than the feed wire is rated for is a false saving. The same with 14 or
16 ga vs 12ga extension cords.
--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill
On 02/07/2013 07:54 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Doug Miller wrote:
>
>>
>> If the edge of the hole is not a minimum of 1-1/4" from the edge of
>> the stud, you need to attach a steel plate to the edge of the stud,
>> centered over the hole. This is to protect the cable from the
>> fasteners used to attach drywall. You can buy the plates at the Borg
>> cheap.
>>>
>
> Is that a recent code addition? I've never heard that, and I've never had
> an inspector say that. If that were true, every single hole drilled through
> a 2x4 would need a plate.
>
When I built my house in 1981 in Seattle, the protective plates were
required for electrical and plumbing running through studs/plates.
Also, fireproofing stuffed in the holes to completely seal for fire code.
--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill
On 02/07/2013 07:51 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> I saved money by using a smaller breaker. It allowed me to use my existing extension cords.
You could have used your existing extension cords with a larger breaker,
since you already know that none of your equipment draws more than 15A.
Is your TS, compressor or any other of your larger power tools on and
extension cord?
--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill
Keith Nuttle <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On 2/7/2013 8:43 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>
>> AFAIK, the only places the Code requires 20A circuits are kitchen and
>> bathrooms. Most people don't have table saws in their garages...
>> really.
>>
> You mean there are actually people whose wives allow them to put a
> table saw in the living room?
Nah... They'd still only have 15A breakers in there. You've got to do the
woodworking in the ktichen or bathroom. If you've got one of the granite
topped saws, make sure it goes with the decor!
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
[email protected] wrote:
> I thought they were designed to protect the entire circuit which
> includes anything that becomes a part of the circuit when connected
> to it?
-------------------------------------------------------------
Brian's hypothisis is stated above.
Brian's hypothisis is false.
The only part of the distribution system that is covered by the NEC is
that part that is an integral part of the building structure.
The reason is pretty obvious.
The NEC is the brain child of the National Fire Prevention Association
(NFPA) which is basically the fire insurance industry.
The over riding mission is the reduction in insurance payments due
to electrical fires in buildings.
------------------------------------------------------
> Is it a good idea to continuously draw amps in excess of what is
> rated for a particular extension cord? Wouldn't the breaker trip if
> I exceed 15A?
------------------------------------------------
What the devil are you smoking?
A 15A c'bkr will trip at 12A+ (less than 13A) continuous load.
You need the current vs time curve for the c'bkr to determine how
long it will take to trip.
Lew
"Doug Miller" wrote:
> Here we go again.
>
> @Lew: For *at least* the 4th time -- the 80% limitation applies
> *only* to continuous loads, not
> to general use.
>
> @everyone_else: ignore Lew. He doesn't understand this part of the
> NEC. He also doesn't
> understand that 12ga wire (for 20A circuits) is noticeably more
> expensive than 14ga wire (for
> 15A circuits). The breakers cost the same, yes, but the wire is not
> "basically the same cost".
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you start charging for your electrical advice, throw your
hat in the ring.
Meanwhile, pull your head out of where the moon doesn't shine,
go over in the corner with the three legged stool, put on the
tapered hat, sit down and pay attention.
By industry definition, the value stamped on the handle of a
thermal-magnetic c'bkr is the current value the c'bkr can handle
on a continuous basis in free air at rated voltage.
This rating has absolutely no practical use other than to
represent a starting point for all manufacturers.
To make the c'bkr a useable device, it must be mounted in an
enclosure to provide a safe means of getting electrical power
into and out of the c'bkr.
As soon as you mount the c'bkr in an enclosure, you must apply
a thermal derate, since we are talking about thermal devices,
to the full capacity of the c'bkr which by NEC standard is 20%.
IOW, a c'bkr labeled "20", can handle 20A in free air, but ONLY
16A (20x80%) when installed in an enclosure on a continuous basis.
You can handle more the 16A on a "20" c'bkr, just not on a
continuous basis.
The time to trip can be read from the time v current trip curve for
the c'bkr.
Electrical distribution systems are like anything else, maximum
thru put for minimum investment; however,in this day and age with
and ever increasing electrical distribution requirements,
12 AWG branch systems are becoming the normal size.
These days if you can't get competitive pricing on 12 AWG,
maybe you should stick to woodworking.
Lew Hodgett, PE (Ret'd)
"Doug Miller" wrote:
> And what article of the NEC says that, Lew?
>
> I've asked you repeatedly to cite the portion of the Code that backs
> up that claim.
>
> Now put up, or shut up.
---------------------------------------------------------
These days, I'm retired and long out of the electrical distribution
business,
(didn't even retain an NEC code book when I left the industry), those
who expect me to do their research for them are expected to pay for
that service.
These days it's strictly a business opportunity, if it fits my
schedule.
Our rates are $1,000.00/day, two(2) day minimum, plus $500.00 for
miscellaneous expenses.
Payment in advance.
For your convenience, we accept PayPal.
Regards,
Lew Hodgett, PE (Ret'd)
On Thursday, February 7, 2013 3:45:33 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> > want to add another circuit (15A 120V)and the easiest for me is to
>
> > drop
>
> >
>
> > straight down below the breaker panel.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> Run 12 AWG wire and install 20A receptacles.
>
>
>
> Lew
I even used a GFI receptacle :^)
On Thursday, February 7, 2013 9:00:59 PM UTC-5, Doug Winterburn wrote:
> On 02/07/2013 05:01 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, February 7, 2013 5:57:48 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
> >>>> [email protected] wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>>
>
> >>
>
> >>> Bought it today at the BORG. 15A GFI. I hate having to use those
>
> >>
>
> >>> but they are code in my garage-a-shop.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> >>
>
> >> I despise 15A circuits since they are limited to 12 FLA. (80% of
>
> >>
>
> >> nameplate)
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> For basically the same cost, 20A circuits provide 16 FLA. (80% of
>
> >>
>
> >> nameplate)
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Lew
>
> >
>
> > Lew - I use a lot of extension cords in my shop that are only rated to carry 15A. I need my 15A breakers to trip as designed. This outlet will be used w/ extension cords.
>
> >
>
>
>
> I have 2 20A/120V and 2 20A/240V circuits in my gar^H^H^Hshop. I use
>
> extension cords on all, and they are 12 gauge cords, even though not all
>
> equipment draws more than 15 amps.
Then all you need is a 15A breaker.
>
>
>
> Think about this - most household appliances that run on 15A circuits
>
> use lamp cord that is either 16 or 18 gauge, which is not rated for 15A.
>
> Why do you suppose that is?
They aren't drawing 15A. Or the run of cord is short enough to allow for the smaller gauge. Wire gauge required is proportional to distance.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> "Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
>
> gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
>
> -Winston Churchill
On Thursday, February 7, 2013 5:08:54 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> >
>
> > I even used a GFI receptacle
>
> -----------------------------------
>
> You sure that isn't a 20A GFI?
>
>
>
> Lew
Bought it today at the BORG. 15A GFI. I hate having to use those but they are code in my garage-a-shop.
On Thursday, February 7, 2013 6:56:10 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
> On 2/7/2013 4:11 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 11:47:48 -0800 (PST), [email protected]
>
> > wrote:
>
> >
>
> >> On Thursday, February 7, 2013 2:43:31 PM UTC-5, Doug Miller wrote:
>
> >>> [email protected] wrote in
>
> >>>
>
> >>> news:[email protected]:
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> Anyone know what the code in NC is for outlet spacing in a
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> garage? I want to add another circuit (15A 120V)and the easiest
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> for me is to drop straight down below the breaker panel.
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> Problem is I have already done that for another circuit (240V).
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> If I am required to be separated form the first outlet by a code
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> distance then I am going to need to drill through wall studs
>
> >
>
> > Swing by your local Home Depot and pick up a stubby Bosch Daredevil
>
> > spade bit. They're by far the most aggressive beasties I've ever used
>
> > in my life. Scary-fast and only about $3.
>
> >
>
> > --
>
> > Newman's First Law:
>
> > It is useless to put on your brakes when you're upside down.
>
> > --Paul Newman
>
> >
>
>
>
> I am planning on running some new circuit in my garage before putting up
>
> dry wall and finishing. What are the regulation for those holes I will
>
> have to put through the studs to run the wires. I can not go into the
>
> ceiling and drop down through the header to go between studs.
>
>
>
> I can not believe they are building garages with only 15amp circuits.
You'll be glad they are when you're using extension cords rated at 15A.
On Thursday, February 7, 2013 10:09:02 PM UTC-5, Doug Winterburn wrote:
> On 02/07/2013 07:51 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > I saved money by using a smaller breaker. It allowed me to use my exis=
ting extension cords.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> You could have used your existing extension cords with a larger breaker,=
=20
>=20
> since you already know that none of your equipment draws more than 15A.=
=20
I could also use my 15A breaker using your same logic. However, I was alre=
ady tripping a 15A breaker w/ the circuit I was using. It was carrying hal=
ogen shop lamps and a planer.
My new 15A circuit will drive my planer *exclusively* via a 15A rated exten=
sion cord.
>=20
> Is your TS, compressor or any other of your larger power tools on and=
=20
>=20
> extension cord?
All of the above. But some are on dedicated circuits w/ the appropriate ga=
uge extension cord. My TS is run on a 220 20A circuit carried by a 20A rat=
ed extension cord which is Y-connected to my bandsaw (220V 20A). Neither m=
y bandsaw or my table saw are EVER run at the same time. I am a one man sh=
op.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> "Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the=20
>=20
> gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"=20
>=20
> -Winston Churchill
On Thursday, February 7, 2013 10:09:46 PM UTC-5, Doug Miller wrote:
> [email protected] wrote in news:c7afa2d9-fcd4-428e-a02f-718bd2eda=
327
>=20
> @googlegroups.com:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > On Thursday, February 7, 2013 8:50:26 PM UTC-5, Doug Miller wrote:
>=20
> >> [email protected] wrote in
>=20
> >>=20
>=20
> >> news:[email protected]:=20
>=20
> >>=20
>=20
> >> > I thought they were designed to protect the entire circuit which
>=20
> >> > includes anything that becomes a part of the circuit when
>=20
> >> > connected to it?=20
>=20
> >>=20
>=20
> >> No. Circuit breakers are designed to protect the circuit, not what's p=
lugged >into it.
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > What's plugged into it *IS* part of the circuit.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> No, it's not, at least not within the definitions used by the NEC. A bran=
ch circuit includes the=20
>=20
> breaker, the wiring, any lighting outlets or power receptacles attached t=
o it, and any loads=20
Anything connected to the circuit is part of the circuit. When nothing is =
connected to the receptacle that is consuming power, the circuit is open an=
d does not allow for a current. This is what matters and what applies here=
. An open circuit is not *technically* a circuit.
>=20
> that are *hard-wired* to the circuit -- and explicitly does not include c=
ord-and-plug=20
>=20
> connected loads.
>=20
> >>=20
>=20
> >> > Is it a good idea to continuously draw amps in excess of what is
>=20
> >> > rated for a particular extension cord? =20
>=20
> >>=20
>=20
> >> That's a Very Bad Idea.
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > Then going w/ a 15A breaker was a smart move.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Going with a 20A-rated extension cord might have been a smarter move, dep=
ending on=20
>=20
> what you're using with it.
Not in this case. I come out ahead.
>=20
> >>=20
>=20
> >> >Wouldn't the breaker trip if I exceed 15A?=20
>=20
> >>=20
>=20
> >> If it's a 15A breaker, yes, it's supposed to.
>=20
> >>=20
>=20
> >> >> An extension cord is strictly a temporary device.
>=20
> >>=20
>=20
> >> > Not in my shop. :) =20
>=20
> >>=20
>=20
> >> In that case, you need to upgrade your wiring.
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > Not in the budget. But a 15A breaker is. :^/
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I hear that.
On 2/7/2013 5:57 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> Bought it today at the BORG. 15A GFI. I hate having to use those
>> but they are code in my garage-a-shop.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> I despise 15A circuits since they are limited to 12 FLA. (80% of
> nameplate)
>
> For basically the same cost, 20A circuits provide 16 FLA. (80% of
> nameplate)
>
>
> Lew
>
>
>
What is the 12 FLA and 16 FLA???
--
Jeff
[email protected] wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Anyone know what the code in NC is for outlet spacing in a
> garage? I want to add another circuit (15A 120V)and the easiest
> for me is to drop straight down below the breaker panel.
> Problem is I have already done that for another circuit (240V).
> If I am required to be separated form the first outlet by a code
> distance then I am going to need to drill through wall studs
I can't speak to what your state codes might say... but I've never seen anything in the National
Electrical Code that dictates any *minimum* spacing between outlets anywhere. There are
rules regarding *maximum* spacing (e.g. no point on a wall may be more than __ inches away
from an outlet), but not minimum spacing AFAIK.
Keith Nuttle <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> I am planning on running some new circuit in my garage before putting up
> dry wall and finishing. What are the regulation for those holes I will
> have to put through the studs to run the wires. I can not go into the
> ceiling and drop down through the header to go between studs.
If the edge of the hole is not a minimum of 1-1/4" from the edge of the stud, you need to attach a
steel plate to the edge of the stud, centered over the hole. This is to protect the cable from the
fasteners used to attach drywall. You can buy the plates at the Borg cheap.
>
> I can not believe they are building garages with only 15amp circuits.
AFAIK, the only places the Code requires 20A circuits are kitchen and bathrooms. Most
people don't have table saws in their garages... really.
[email protected] wrote in news:3d5c0e5f-efb2-4c76-aa25-b1a16811cc76
@googlegroups.com:
> On Thursday, February 7, 2013 5:57:48 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>
>> I despise 15A circuits since they are limited to 12 FLA. (80% of
>> nameplate)
>>
>> For basically the same cost, 20A circuits provide 16 FLA. (80% of
>> nameplate)
Here we go again.
@Lew: For *at least* the 4th time -- the 80% limitation applies *only* to continuous loads, not
to general use.
@everyone_else: ignore Lew. He doesn't understand this part of the NEC. He also doesn't
understand that 12ga wire (for 20A circuits) is noticeably more expensive than 14ga wire (for
15A circuits). The breakers cost the same, yes, but the wire is not "basically the same cost".
[email protected] wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> I thought they were designed to protect the entire circuit which
> includes anything that becomes a part of the circuit when
> connected to it?
No. Circuit breakers are designed to protect the circuit, not what's plugged into it.
>
> Is it a good idea to continuously draw amps in excess of what is
> rated for a particular extension cord?
That's a Very Bad Idea.
>Wouldn't the breaker trip if I exceed 15A?
If it's a 15A breaker, yes, it's supposed to.
>
>> An extension cord is strictly a temporary device.
>
> Not in my shop. :)
In that case, you need to upgrade your wiring.
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Doug Miller wrote:
>
>>
>> If the edge of the hole is not a minimum of 1-1/4" from the
>> edge of the stud, you need to attach a steel plate to the edge
>> of the stud, centered over the hole. This is to protect the
>> cable from the fasteners used to attach drywall. You can buy
>> the plates at the Borg cheap.
>>>
>
> Is that a recent code addition?
No.
>I've never heard that, and I've never had an inspector say that.
Probably never had an inspector spot a cable passing through a hole that was drilled too
close to the edge of the stud.
> If that were true, every single hole drilled through
> a 2x4 would need a plate.
Sorry, Mike, there's something wrong with your math. Drill a 1/2" hole through the center of a
2x4 stud. There's still 1-1/2" of wood on either side of it. Even a 1"-diameter hole drilled
through the center of a stud still complies.
[email protected] wrote in news:c7afa2d9-fcd4-428e-a02f-718bd2eda327
@googlegroups.com:
> On Thursday, February 7, 2013 8:50:26 PM UTC-5, Doug Miller wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote in
>>
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>> > I thought they were designed to protect the entire circuit which
>> > includes anything that becomes a part of the circuit when
>> > connected to it?
>>
>> No. Circuit breakers are designed to protect the circuit, not what's plugged >into it.
>
> What's plugged into it *IS* part of the circuit.
No, it's not, at least not within the definitions used by the NEC. A branch circuit includes the
breaker, the wiring, any lighting outlets or power receptacles attached to it, and any loads
that are *hard-wired* to the circuit -- and explicitly does not include cord-and-plug
connected loads.
>>
>> > Is it a good idea to continuously draw amps in excess of what is
>> > rated for a particular extension cord?
>>
>> That's a Very Bad Idea.
>
> Then going w/ a 15A breaker was a smart move.
Going with a 20A-rated extension cord might have been a smarter move, depending on
what you're using with it.
>>
>> >Wouldn't the breaker trip if I exceed 15A?
>>
>> If it's a 15A breaker, yes, it's supposed to.
>>
>> >> An extension cord is strictly a temporary device.
>>
>> > Not in my shop. :)
>>
>> In that case, you need to upgrade your wiring.
>
> Not in the budget. But a 15A breaker is. :^/
I hear that.
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in news:kf1pnn$73m$1@dont-
email.me:
>
> That has to be a local code - I'm not aware of that as an NEC requirement.
> It certainly is not a requirement in the areas of NY state that simply
> default to the NEC.
Sorry, Mike, but you're completely wrong about that. This is quoted verbatim from the 1993
NEC:
"In both exposed and concealed locations, where a cable or raceway-type wiring method
is installed through bored holes in joists, rafters, or wood members, holes shall be bored so
that the edge of the hole is not thess than 1 1/4 inches (31.8mm) fomr the nearest edge of the
wood member. Where this distance cannont be maintained, the cable or raceway shall be
protected from penetration by screws or nails by a steel plate or bushing, at least 1/16 inch
(1.59 mm) thik, and of approptriate length and width installed to cover the area of the wiring."
[1993 National Electrical Code, Article 300-4(a)(1)]
The language in the corresponding section of the 1984 Code is substantially identical.
So it's neither "a local code" nor a "new requirement" -- it's nationwide, and it's *at least*
thirty years old.
[email protected] wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> Anything connected to the circuit is part of the circuit. When
> nothing is connected to the receptacle that is consuming power,
> the circuit is open and does not allow for a current. This is
> what matters and what applies here. An open circuit is not
> *technically* a circuit.
I understand that electrically speaking, it is part of the circuit. I'm familiar with the physics
involved, and you need not explain it to me.
Do you understand that *as far as the NEC is concerned* it's *not* part of the circuit?
"Branch Circuit: the circuit conductors between the final overcurrent device protecting the
circuit and the outlet(s)" [2005 NEC, Article 100]
This definition specifically *excludes* as part of the circuit anything that is plugged into the
outlet.
[email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:
> On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 21:54:36 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Doug Miller wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> If the edge of the hole is not a minimum of 1-1/4" from the edge of
>>> the stud, you need to attach a steel plate to the edge of the stud,
>>> centered over the hole. This is to protect the cable from the
>>> fasteners used to attach drywall. You can buy the plates at the Borg
>>> cheap.
>>>>
>>
>>Is that a recent code addition? I've never heard that, and I've never had
>>an inspector say that. If that were true, every single hole drilled through
>>a 2x4 would need a plate.
> Not sure if it is 1.25" - but the requirement has been code since
> about 1965. - if you can't drill the center of the 2X4, you plate it.
It is 1.25", and you don't have to drill in the exact center to meet the requirement. A 1/2"
diameter hole, centered 1 1/2" from the edge of the stud (i.e. 1/4" off-center) still meets the
requirement.
>
woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On 2/7/2013 5:57 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>> Bought it today at the BORG. 15A GFI. I hate having to use those
>>> but they are code in my garage-a-shop.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> I despise 15A circuits since they are limited to 12 FLA. (80% of
>> nameplate)
>>
>> For basically the same cost, 20A circuits provide 16 FLA. (80% of
>> nameplate)
>>
>>
>> Lew
>>
>>
>>
> What is the 12 FLA and 16 FLA???
Just a fantasy of Lew's that circuits are supposedly limited to. They aren't. Ignore him.
>
>
Doug Miller <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:kf1pnn$73m$1@dont- email.me:
>
>>
>> That has to be a local code - I'm not aware of that as an NEC
>> requirement. It certainly is not a requirement in the areas of
>> NY state that simply default to the NEC.
>
> Sorry, Mike, but you're completely wrong about that. This is
> quoted verbatim from the 1993 NEC:
>
> "In both exposed and concealed locations, where a cable or
> raceway-type wiring method is installed through bored holes in
> joists, rafters, or wood members, holes shall be bored so that
> the edge of the hole is not thess than 1 1/4 inches (31.8mm)
> fomr the nearest edge of the
*not less than
> wood member. Where this distance cannont be maintained, the
> cable or raceway shall be protected from penetration by screws
> or nails by a steel plate or bushing, at least 1/16 inch (1.59
> mm) thik, and of approptriate length and width installed to
> cover the area of the wiring." [1993 National Electrical Code,
> Article 300-4(a)(1)]
>
> The language in the corresponding section of the 1984 Code is
> substantially identical.
>
> So it's neither "a local code" nor a "new requirement" -- it's
> nationwide, and it's *at least* thirty years old.
>
>
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in news:511496c2$0$58152$c3e8da3
[email protected]:
> As soon as you mount the c'bkr in an enclosure, you must apply
> a thermal derate, since we are talking about thermal devices,
> to the full capacity of the c'bkr which by NEC standard is 20%.
And what article of the NEC says that, Lew?
I've asked you repeatedly to cite the portion of the Code that backs up that claim.
Now put up, or shut up.
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in news:511872fe$0$52121$c3e8da3
[email protected]:
>
> "Doug Miller" wrote:
>
>> And what article of the NEC says that, Lew?
>>
>> I've asked you repeatedly to cite the portion of the Code that backs
>> up that claim.
>>
>> Now put up, or shut up.
Your inability to do so is duly noted.
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> These days, I'm retired and long out of the electrical distribution
> business,
> (didn't even retain an NEC code book when I left the industry), those
> who expect me to do their research for them are expected to pay for
> that service.
Translation: the NEC doesn't say what you claim it says, and you know it -- but you won't
admit it.
On Thursday, February 7, 2013 1:49:45 PM UTC-5, dpb wrote:
> On 2/7/2013 12:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > Anyone know what the code in NC is for outlet spacing in a garage? I
>
> > want to add another circuit (15A 120V)and the easiest for me is to drop
>
> > straight down below the breaker panel. Problem is I have already done
>
> > that for another circuit (240V). If I am required to be separated form
>
> > the first outlet by a code distance then I am going to need to drill
>
> > through wall studs (cringe).
>
>
>
> No problem.
Thank you.
>
>
>
> --
On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 21:39:07 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 01:47:31 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>[email protected] wrote in news:3d5c0e5f-efb2-4c76-aa25-b1a16811cc76
>>@googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> On Thursday, February 7, 2013 5:57:48 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I despise 15A circuits since they are limited to 12 FLA. (80% of
>>>> nameplate)
>>>>
>>>> For basically the same cost, 20A circuits provide 16 FLA. (80% of
>>>> nameplate)
>>
>>Here we go again.
>>
>>@Lew: For *at least* the 4th time -- the 80% limitation applies *only* to continuous loads, not
>>to general use.
>>
>>@everyone_else: ignore Lew. He doesn't understand this part of the NEC. He also doesn't
>>understand that 12ga wire (for 20A circuits) is noticeably more expensive than 14ga wire (for
>>15A circuits). The breakers cost the same, yes, but the wire is not "basically the same cost".
> When you take into account the total cost of the job, the difference
>between 14 and 12 guage wire is a small percentage of the job cost.
...and work.
The BORG gets about $72 for 250' of 12/2 and $47 for 14/2. $25
doesn't go very far these days.
On Thursday, February 7, 2013 3:45:33 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> > want to add another circuit (15A 120V)and the easiest for me is to
>
> > drop
>
> >
>
> > straight down below the breaker panel.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> Run 12 AWG wire and install 20A receptacles.
>
>
>
> Lew
I ran 12 wire with a 15A breaker and receptacle. Should be plenty for what I'm using it for.
On Thursday, February 7, 2013 8:50:26 PM UTC-5, Doug Miller wrote:
> [email protected] wrote in
>
> news:[email protected]:
>
> > I thought they were designed to protect the entire circuit which
>
> > includes anything that becomes a part of the circuit when
>
> > connected to it?
>
>
>
> No. Circuit breakers are designed to protect the circuit, not what's plugged >into it.
What's plugged into it *IS* part of the circuit.
>
> >
>
> > Is it a good idea to continuously draw amps in excess of what is
>
> > rated for a particular extension cord?
>
>
>
> That's a Very Bad Idea.
Then going w/ a 15A breaker was a smart move.
>
>
>
> >Wouldn't the breaker trip if I exceed 15A?
>
>
>
> If it's a 15A breaker, yes, it's supposed to.
>
> >
>
> >> An extension cord is strictly a temporary device.
>
> >
>
> > Not in my shop. :)
>
>
>
> In that case, you need to upgrade your wiring.
Not in the budget. But a 15A breaker is. :^/
On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 23:32:28 -0500, woodchucker <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 2/7/2013 5:57 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>> Bought it today at the BORG. 15A GFI. I hate having to use those
>>> but they are code in my garage-a-shop.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> I despise 15A circuits since they are limited to 12 FLA. (80% of
>> nameplate)
>>
>> For basically the same cost, 20A circuits provide 16 FLA. (80% of
>> nameplate)
>>
>>
>> Lew
>>
>>
>>
>What is the 12 FLA and 16 FLA???
FLA stands for Full Load Amps.
On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 10:04:26 -0800 (PST), [email protected]
wrote:
>Anyone know what the code in NC is for outlet spacing in a garage? I want to add another circuit (15A 120V)and the easiest for me is to drop straight down below the breaker panel. Problem is I have already done that for another circuit (240V). If I am required to be separated form the first outlet by a code distance then I am going to need to drill through wall studs (cringe).
Don't know your local codes but NEC only specifies a maximum distance
for spacing between residential outlets. I would also go with a 20
amp circuit unless you know you'll never want to plug any higher power
tools in.
Mike M
On 2/7/2013 12:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> Anyone know what the code in NC is for outlet spacing in a garage? I
> want to add another circuit (15A 120V)and the easiest for me is to drop
> straight down below the breaker panel. Problem is I have already done
> that for another circuit (240V). If I am required to be separated form
> the first outlet by a code distance then I am going to need to drill
> through wall studs (cringe).
No problem.
--
Mike M <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 01:47:31 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>[email protected] wrote in
>>news:3d5c0e5f-efb2-4c76-aa25-b1a16811cc76 @googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> On Thursday, February 7, 2013 5:57:48 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I despise 15A circuits since they are limited to 12 FLA. (80%
>>>> of nameplate)
>>>>
>>>> For basically the same cost, 20A circuits provide 16 FLA.
>>>> (80% of nameplate)
>>
>>Here we go again.
>>
>>@Lew: For *at least* the 4th time -- the 80% limitation applies
>>*only* to continuous loads, not to general use.
>>
>>@everyone_else: ignore Lew. He doesn't understand this part of
>>the NEC. He also doesn't understand that 12ga wire (for 20A
>>circuits) is noticeably more expensive than 14ga wire (for 15A
>>circuits). The breakers cost the same, yes, but the wire is not
>>"basically the same cost".
>
> I have to disagree with you on this one.
>
> (A) 15- and 20-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 15- or 20-
> ampere branch circuit shall be permitted to supply lighting
> units or other utilization equipment, or a combination of
> both, and shall comply with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2).
> Exception: The small-appliance branch circuits, laundry
> branch circuits, and bathroom branch circuits required in a
> dwelling unit(s) by 210.11(C)(1), (C)(2), and (C)(3) shall
> supply only the receptacle outlets specified in that section.
> (1) Cord-and-Plug-Connected Equipment Not Fastened
> in Place. The rating of any one cord-and-plug-connected
> utilization equipment not fastened in place shall not exceed
> 80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating.
Read it more carefully, Mike: "the rating of ANY ONE
cord-and-plug-connected utilization equiment... shall not exceed
80 percent ..."
Lew maintains that the *entire circuit* is limited to 80 percent
of its rating, and that just isn't true.
On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 01:47:31 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
<[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] wrote in news:3d5c0e5f-efb2-4c76-aa25-b1a16811cc76
>@googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Thursday, February 7, 2013 5:57:48 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>
>>> I despise 15A circuits since they are limited to 12 FLA. (80% of
>>> nameplate)
>>>
>>> For basically the same cost, 20A circuits provide 16 FLA. (80% of
>>> nameplate)
>
>Here we go again.
>
>@Lew: For *at least* the 4th time -- the 80% limitation applies *only* to continuous loads, not
>to general use.
>
>@everyone_else: ignore Lew. He doesn't understand this part of the NEC. He also doesn't
>understand that 12ga wire (for 20A circuits) is noticeably more expensive than 14ga wire (for
>15A circuits). The breakers cost the same, yes, but the wire is not "basically the same cost".
I have to disagree with you on this one.
(A) 15- and 20-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 15- or 20-
ampere branch circuit shall be permitted to supply lighting
units or other utilization equipment, or a combination of
both, and shall comply with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2).
Exception: The small-appliance branch circuits, laundry
branch circuits, and bathroom branch circuits required in a
dwelling unit(s) by 210.11(C)(1), (C)(2), and (C)(3) shall
supply only the receptacle outlets specified in that section.
(1) Cord-and-Plug-Connected Equipment Not Fastened
in Place. The rating of any one cord-and-plug-connected
utilization equipment not fastened in place shall not exceed
80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating.
Mike M
On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 01:47:31 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
<[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] wrote in news:3d5c0e5f-efb2-4c76-aa25-b1a16811cc76
>@googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Thursday, February 7, 2013 5:57:48 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>
>>> I despise 15A circuits since they are limited to 12 FLA. (80% of
>>> nameplate)
>>>
>>> For basically the same cost, 20A circuits provide 16 FLA. (80% of
>>> nameplate)
>
>Here we go again.
>
>@Lew: For *at least* the 4th time -- the 80% limitation applies *only* to continuous loads, not
>to general use.
>
>@everyone_else: ignore Lew. He doesn't understand this part of the NEC. He also doesn't
>understand that 12ga wire (for 20A circuits) is noticeably more expensive than 14ga wire (for
>15A circuits). The breakers cost the same, yes, but the wire is not "basically the same cost".
When you take into account the total cost of the job, the difference
between 14 and 12 guage wire is a small percentage of the job cost.
On 2/7/2013 1:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> Anyone know what the code in NC is for outlet spacing in a garage? I want to add another circuit (15A 120V)and the easiest for me is to drop straight down below the breaker panel. Problem is I have already done that for another circuit (240V). If I am required to be separated form the first outlet by a code distance then I am going to need to drill through wall studs (cringe).
>
They make boxes where you can take off the sides and attach them
together, I have seen about six together pass code inspections here so I
would be surprised if there is a minimum distance.
--
Froz...
The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.
On 2/7/2013 4:11 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 11:47:48 -0800 (PST), [email protected]
> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, February 7, 2013 2:43:31 PM UTC-5, Doug Miller wrote:
>>> [email protected] wrote in
>>>
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Anyone know what the code in NC is for outlet spacing in a
>>>
>>>> garage? I want to add another circuit (15A 120V)and the easiest
>>>
>>>> for me is to drop straight down below the breaker panel.
>>>
>>>> Problem is I have already done that for another circuit (240V).
>>>
>>>> If I am required to be separated form the first outlet by a code
>>>
>>>> distance then I am going to need to drill through wall studs
>
> Swing by your local Home Depot and pick up a stubby Bosch Daredevil
> spade bit. They're by far the most aggressive beasties I've ever used
> in my life. Scary-fast and only about $3.
>
> --
> Newman's First Law:
> It is useless to put on your brakes when you're upside down.
> --Paul Newman
>
I am planning on running some new circuit in my garage before putting up
dry wall and finishing. What are the regulation for those holes I will
have to put through the studs to run the wires. I can not go into the
ceiling and drop down through the header to go between studs.
I can not believe they are building garages with only 15amp circuits.
Doug Miller wrote:
>
> If the edge of the hole is not a minimum of 1-1/4" from the edge of
> the stud, you need to attach a steel plate to the edge of the stud,
> centered over the hole. This is to protect the cable from the
> fasteners used to attach drywall. You can buy the plates at the Borg
> cheap.
>>
Is that a recent code addition? I've never heard that, and I've never had
an inspector say that. If that were true, every single hole drilled through
a 2x4 would need a plate.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Doug Winterburn wrote:
> On 02/07/2013 07:54 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> If the edge of the hole is not a minimum of 1-1/4" from the edge of
>>> the stud, you need to attach a steel plate to the edge of the stud,
>>> centered over the hole. This is to protect the cable from the
>>> fasteners used to attach drywall. You can buy the plates at the Borg
>>> cheap.
>>>>
>>
>> Is that a recent code addition? I've never heard that, and I've
>> never had an inspector say that. If that were true, every single
>> hole drilled through a 2x4 would need a plate.
>>
>
>
> When I built my house in 1981 in Seattle, the protective plates were
> required for electrical and plumbing running through studs/plates.
> Also, fireproofing stuffed in the holes to completely seal for fire
> code.
That has to be a local code - I'm not aware of that as an NEC requirement.
It certainly is not a requirement in the areas of NY state that simply
default to the NEC.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Doug Miller wrote:
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
>
>> I've never heard that, and I've never had an inspector say that.
>
> Probably never had an inspector spot a cable passing through a hole
> that was drilled too close to the edge of the stud.
>
Well - I try to keep them sufficiently away from the edge.
>> If that were true, every single hole drilled through
>> a 2x4 would need a plate.
>
> Sorry, Mike, there's something wrong with your math. Drill a 1/2"
> hole through the center of a 2x4 stud. There's still 1-1/2" of wood
> on either side of it. Even a 1"-diameter hole drilled through the
> center of a stud still complies.
I thought about this when I went out to the garage for a smoke. You are
correct of course, in that with 3 1/2" to work with, a half inch hole would
present no problem. A one inch hole would leave also leave 1 1/4" beyond
the edge of the hole. I think I was thinking about the 2x4 in the wrong
direction. My bad. Sometimes this stuff happens...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 2/7/2013 8:43 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
> Keith Nuttle <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> I am planning on running some new circuit in my garage before putting up
>> dry wall and finishing. What are the regulation for those holes I will
>> have to put through the studs to run the wires. I can not go into the
>> ceiling and drop down through the header to go between studs.
>
> If the edge of the hole is not a minimum of 1-1/4" from the edge of the stud, you need to attach a
> steel plate to the edge of the stud, centered over the hole. This is to protect the cable from the
> fasteners used to attach drywall. You can buy the plates at the Borg cheap.
>>
>> I can not believe they are building garages with only 15amp circuits.
>
> AFAIK, the only places the Code requires 20A circuits are kitchen and bathrooms. Most
> people don't have table saws in their garages... really.
>
You mean there are actually people whose wives allow them to put a table
saw in the living room?
Doug Miller wrote:
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:kf1pnn$73m$1@dont-
> email.me:
>
>>
>> That has to be a local code - I'm not aware of that as an NEC
>> requirement. It certainly is not a requirement in the areas of NY
>> state that simply default to the NEC.
>
> Sorry, Mike, but you're completely wrong about that. This is quoted
> verbatim from the 1993
> NEC:
>
> "In both exposed and concealed locations, where a cable or
> raceway-type wiring method
> is installed through bored holes in joists, rafters, or wood members,
> holes shall be bored so that the edge of the hole is not thess than 1
> 1/4 inches (31.8mm) fomr the nearest edge of the wood member. Where
> this distance cannont be maintained, the cable or raceway shall be
> protected from penetration by screws or nails by a steel plate or
> bushing, at least 1/16 inch (1.59 mm) thik, and of approptriate
> length and width installed to cover the area of the wiring." [1993
> National Electrical Code, Article 300-4(a)(1)]
>
> The language in the corresponding section of the 1984 Code is
> substantially identical.
>
> So it's neither "a local code" nor a "new requirement" -- it's
> nationwide, and it's *at least* thirty years old.
Well - I stood corrected last night, and now I stand more corrected. Thanks
Doug - I was not aware (or had forgotten?) that code actually addressed
this.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
In article <[email protected]>,
Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 02/07/2013 07:54 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> If the edge of the hole is not a minimum of 1-1/4" from the edge of
>>> the stud, you need to attach a steel plate to the edge of the stud,
>>> centered over the hole. This is to protect the cable from the
>>> fasteners used to attach drywall. You can buy the plates at the Borg
>>> cheap.
>>>>
>>
>> Is that a recent code addition? I've never heard that, and I've never had
>> an inspector say that. If that were true, every single hole drilled through
>> a 2x4 would need a plate.
>>
>
Seems like a 1/2 inch hole drilled dead center through a 3.5 inch "2X4"
stud wleave 1.5" between the edge of the hole and edge of the stud. Even
a 3/4 inch hole would leave 1.375 (1-3/8) inches.
--
Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler. (Albert Einstein)
Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org
On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 18:56:10 -0500, Keith Nuttle
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On 2/7/2013 4:11 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 11:47:48 -0800 (PST), [email protected]
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, February 7, 2013 2:43:31 PM UTC-5, Doug Miller wrote:
>>>> [email protected] wrote in
>>>>
>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Anyone know what the code in NC is for outlet spacing in a
>>>>
>>>>> garage? I want to add another circuit (15A 120V)and the easiest
>>>>
>>>>> for me is to drop straight down below the breaker panel.
>>>>
>>>>> Problem is I have already done that for another circuit (240V).
>>>>
>>>>> If I am required to be separated form the first outlet by a code
>>>>
>>>>> distance then I am going to need to drill through wall studs
>>
>> Swing by your local Home Depot and pick up a stubby Bosch Daredevil
>> spade bit. They're by far the most aggressive beasties I've ever used
>> in my life. Scary-fast and only about $3.
>>
>
>I am planning on running some new circuit in my garage before putting up
>dry wall and finishing. What are the regulation for those holes I will
>have to put through the studs to run the wires. I can not go into the
>ceiling and drop down through the header to go between studs.
Check with the local inspectors and build to what they want to see.
Even if you read the NEC and followed it exactly (if anyone ever has)
the local inspectors may have additional regs for your area. They're
the last word, so ask them. Then they can easily sign it off when
they do the inspection, knowing that you followed their specs.
2 suggestions: 1) put the outlets above 4' height for ease of use.
and 2) paint the walls, ceiling, and floor with eggshell pure white
paint. It cuts your lighting needs by half, and makes it easier to
find dropped hardware on the floor. Floor and porch paint lasts for
years and touches up easily.
Here's an older NEC online for reference. She's a beeyotch to read.
http://www.mikeholt.com/technical.php?id=nec/technicalnecfreestuff
>I can not believe they are building garages with only 15amp circuits.
Ditto.
--
Newman's First Law:
It is useless to put on your brakes when you're upside down.
--Paul Newman
On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 21:54:36 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Doug Miller wrote:
>
>>
>> If the edge of the hole is not a minimum of 1-1/4" from the edge of
>> the stud, you need to attach a steel plate to the edge of the stud,
>> centered over the hole. This is to protect the cable from the
>> fasteners used to attach drywall. You can buy the plates at the Borg
>> cheap.
>>>
>
>Is that a recent code addition? I've never heard that, and I've never had
>an inspector say that. If that were true, every single hole drilled through
>a 2x4 would need a plate.
Not sure if it is 1.25" - but the requirement has been code since
about 1965. - if you can't drill the center of the 2X4, you plate it.
On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 11:47:48 -0800 (PST), [email protected]
wrote:
>On Thursday, February 7, 2013 2:43:31 PM UTC-5, Doug Miller wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote in
>>
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Anyone know what the code in NC is for outlet spacing in a
>>
>> > garage? I want to add another circuit (15A 120V)and the easiest
>>
>> > for me is to drop straight down below the breaker panel.
>>
>> > Problem is I have already done that for another circuit (240V).
>>
>> > If I am required to be separated form the first outlet by a code
>>
>> > distance then I am going to need to drill through wall studs
Swing by your local Home Depot and pick up a stubby Bosch Daredevil
spade bit. They're by far the most aggressive beasties I've ever used
in my life. Scary-fast and only about $3.
--
Newman's First Law:
It is useless to put on your brakes when you're upside down.
--Paul Newman