I've moved into a place that has a large (24 x 50) pole barn on the
property. I've started the process of converting it into an enclosed
building and I intend to set up my shop in it. I have discovered that
the existing concrete slab is not at all flat and is out of level by
about 2 inches over a span of about 20 feet.
My previous shop was in a basement, also on concrete slab, also out of
level and not flat. It was a niusance having to fiddle with roller
stands and other temporary supports to compensate for it as was
necessary when I moved them. Other than that, I never really noticed the
flaw in the floor.
I'm considering putting a plywood floor on top of the slab anyway, just
so I don't have to stand on concrete. Would it be worth the trouble to
raise that floor on sleepers and shim them so the floor is level? Can
such a structure be made stiff enough to work well under heavy
machinery?
TIA.
--
Art Greenberg
artg at eclipse dot net
On Fri, 29 Jul 2011 18:53:53 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Jul 2011 12:17:00 -0500, Art Greenberg <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >So I think I'll skip the wood floor, and go buy some tools. I can
> >always change my mind later ... I'll just have to raise the entry door
> >if I do.
>
> You might want to position the header over the door with that possibility in
> mind.
Yup.
Or, since the wall the door is in isn't load bearing, I could put in two
smaller headers, and if/when the time comes, just cut out the lower one.
--
Art Greenberg
artg at eclipse dot net
Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> Paint the floor (and ceiling and walls) eggshell white for ease in
> finding hardware and doubling your ambient light with no extra lamps.
> It makes the whole place feel lighter and airier.
I'll second painting the floor a single color. If you can keep it swept
up, finding dropped hardware is easier. (Except for those tiny motor
springs. They're NEVER easy to find.)
Puckdropper
"Art Greenberg" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
I've moved into a place that has a large (24 x 50) pole barn on the
property. I've started the process of converting it into an enclosed
building and I intend to set up my shop in it. I have discovered that
the existing concrete slab is not at all flat and is out of level by
about 2 inches over a span of about 20 feet.
<snipped>
They make a substance to "float" a concrete floor, it is supposed to be self
leveling... seems to me it would be far easier and faster than shims!
On 28/07/2011 4:07 AM, Art Greenberg wrote:
> I've moved into a place that has a large (24 x 50) pole barn on the
> property. I've started the process of converting it into an enclosed
> building and I intend to set up my shop in it. I have discovered that
> the existing concrete slab is not at all flat and is out of level by
> about 2 inches over a span of about 20 feet.
>
> My previous shop was in a basement, also on concrete slab, also out of
> level and not flat. It was a niusance having to fiddle with roller
> stands and other temporary supports to compensate for it as was
> necessary when I moved them. Other than that, I never really noticed the
> flaw in the floor.
>
> I'm considering putting a plywood floor on top of the slab anyway, just
> so I don't have to stand on concrete. Would it be worth the trouble to
> raise that floor on sleepers and shim them so the floor is level? Can
> such a structure be made stiff enough to work well under heavy
> machinery?
>
> TIA.
>
A few years ago I had a similar problem. I built a retaining "dam" about
an inch high around the perimeter of the wall then screeded it by
pouring excessively wet concrete onto it, sloppy enough to form a
natural level surface without having to touch it in any way. It took
about a week to cure, then I used cork tiles to make an insulated floor
surface.
"Art Greenberg" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
I've moved into a place that has a large (24 x 50) pole barn on the
property. I've started the process of converting it into an enclosed
building and I intend to set up my shop in it. I have discovered that
the existing concrete slab is not at all flat and is out of level by
about 2 inches over a span of about 20 feet.
My previous shop was in a basement, also on concrete slab, also out of
level and not flat. It was a nuisance having to fiddle with roller
stands and other temporary supports to compensate for it as was
necessary when I moved them. Other than that, I never really noticed the
flaw in the floor.
I'm considering putting a plywood floor on top of the slab anyway, just
so I don't have to stand on concrete. Would it be worth the trouble to
raise that floor on sleepers and shim them so the floor is level? Can
such a structure be made stiff enough to work well under heavy
machinery?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, you can make it stiff enough for machines, by supporting the floor
joists often by putting shims down against the concrete along the length.
The largest advantage of putting down a wood floor, is the opportunity to
put wire runs down in the floor. I would put a section of plywood down with
screws, so you can remodel the wires in the future.
Also, dust collection in the floor is like sliced bread. No ducts coming
down from the ceiling to get in the way of long pieces of wood or plywood.
Once again, even if you don't put it down now, build for putting ducts in,
sometime in the future.
This is a bit of money to spend, but the payoff could be great. Go for it
if you can.
If you want to do the ducts, I would use 2 x 6 joists, shimmed with 2x4's at
the minimum so a 8 inch duct will fit. Go with 12' O.C. spacing and support
them on the floor about every 4 or 6 feet.
-- Jim in NC
Wish I could agree with that.
I work on concrete. In order to save some of my tools a little I put
down comercial grade tile. Wish I had saved that money and done the wood
floor. Warmer, easier on the feet, easier on a dropped tool.
720 is not that much in the scheme of things.
My basement is 65 long by (varies) 13.5, to 20 of work area, the rest is
wood storage and storage...
I gotta tell you I had those interlocking mats and my ankles and feet
hurt worse. too soft your muscles are constantly working to keep you
centered (but you don't know it).... firmer seemed to work better... but
If I had to do it again, it would be wood. They also sell these small
OSB squares with dimples on the other side. They seem high priced, but
the concept is valid. Keep the wood off the floor to prevent rot...
On 7/27/2011 4:51 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 13:47:37 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/27/2011 1:07 PM, Art Greenberg wrote:
>>> I've moved into a place that has a large (24 x 50) pole barn on the
>>> property. I've started the process of converting it into an enclosed
>>> building and I intend to set up my shop in it. I have discovered that
>>> the existing concrete slab is not at all flat and is out of level by
>>> about 2 inches over a span of about 20 feet.
>>>
>>> My previous shop was in a basement, also on concrete slab, also out of
>>> level and not flat. It was a niusance having to fiddle with roller
>>> stands and other temporary supports to compensate for it as was
>>> necessary when I moved them. Other than that, I never really noticed the
>>> flaw in the floor.
>>>
>>> I'm considering putting a plywood floor on top of the slab anyway, just
>>> so I don't have to stand on concrete. Would it be worth the trouble to
>>> raise that floor on sleepers and shim them so the floor is level? Can
>>> such a structure be made stiff enough to work well under heavy
>>> machinery?
>>>
>>> TIA.
>>>
>>
>> I have always worked on a concrete garage floor and they have always had
>> a slope close to what you are talking about. I don't think there is a
>> such thing as a flat concrete floor. Smooth is desirable.
>>
>> Concerning the concrete floor vs. covering with plywood, I have thought
>> about but only as the main floor to start with. you will need at least
>> 36 sheets of plywood. Figuring $20 for a decent grade you are out&720
>> for the plywood alone, add the cost of what you put down under it, and
>> your time.
>>
>> So far I have been working on a concrete floor for 30+ years. Buy a
>> "great" pair of shoes and you save a bundle.
>
> Agreed, and if you want even more comfort, put down a spongy
> anti-fatigue mat at each tool you stand in front of for any length of
> time.
>
> Paint the floor (and ceiling and walls) eggshell white for ease in
> finding hardware and doubling your ambient light with no extra lamps.
> It makes the whole place feel lighter and airier.
>
> --
> Win first, Fight later.
>
> --martial principle of the Samurai
On 7/27/2011 4:12 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> I'll second painting the floor a single color. If you can keep it swept
> up, finding dropped hardware is easier. (Except for those tiny motor
> springs. They're NEVER easy to find.)
Just remember that anything dropped in the shop will always end up
underneath the heaviest, lowest to the ground, most inaccessible corner
of the furthermost object, 180 degrees from where your eye unmistakeably
saw it bounce.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
absolutely go for sleepers.
And yes shim them to level, or shim and plane the sleepers.
Yes the structure can be made stiff enough. Either 12 in sleepers, or
use 2 layers of ply. One 3/4 and the other 5/8 or 3/4... on a bias or 90
I think the 5/8 would be a better choice so you still had a little
bounce. 2 3/4 might be a little stiff. You want the bounce to relieve
the legs / ankles... I am sure others will have various other opinions.
On 7/27/2011 2:07 PM, Art Greenberg wrote:
> I've moved into a place that has a large (24 x 50) pole barn on the
> property. I've started the process of converting it into an enclosed
> building and I intend to set up my shop in it. I have discovered that
> the existing concrete slab is not at all flat and is out of level by
> about 2 inches over a span of about 20 feet.
>
> My previous shop was in a basement, also on concrete slab, also out of
> level and not flat. It was a niusance having to fiddle with roller
> stands and other temporary supports to compensate for it as was
> necessary when I moved them. Other than that, I never really noticed the
> flaw in the floor.
>
> I'm considering putting a plywood floor on top of the slab anyway, just
> so I don't have to stand on concrete. Would it be worth the trouble to
> raise that floor on sleepers and shim them so the floor is level? Can
> such a structure be made stiff enough to work well under heavy
> machinery?
>
> TIA.
>
On 7/27/2011 1:47 PM, Leon wrote:
> about but only as the main floor to start with. you will need at least
> 36 sheets of plywood. Figuring $20 for a decent grade you are out &720
> for the plywood alone, add the cost of what you put down under it, and
> your time.
>
> So far I have been working on a concrete floor for 30+ years. Buy a
> "great" pair of shoes and you save a bundle.
Hell, that'll buy C-Less the Festool TS-75 he's been drooling over!
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 13:07:17 -0500, Art Greenberg wrote:
[... snip ...]
Thanks to all who responded. A couple suggested an additional layer of
concrete, some suggested I go with sleepers and plywood and maybe raise
the floor enough to run dust collection piping under it. And the
pragmatists pointed out that paint and floor mats are much cheaper,
leaving more money for tools.
My primary concern was over temporary supports such as roller stands.
Thinking about this, my new shop is probably large enough that I can
position shop equipment and workbenches in a way that would virtually
eliminate the need for any temporary supports. For example, I can set
up a permanent outfeed on the table saw large enough to support a full
sheet of plywood.
So I think I'll skip the wood floor, and go buy some tools. I can
always change my mind later ... I'll just have to raise the entry door
if I do.
--
Art Greenberg
artg at eclipse dot net
On Fri, 29 Jul 2011 12:17:00 -0500, Art Greenberg <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 13:07:17 -0500, Art Greenberg wrote:
>[... snip ...]
>
>Thanks to all who responded. A couple suggested an additional layer of
>concrete, some suggested I go with sleepers and plywood and maybe raise
>the floor enough to run dust collection piping under it. And the
>pragmatists pointed out that paint and floor mats are much cheaper,
>leaving more money for tools.
>
>My primary concern was over temporary supports such as roller stands.
>Thinking about this, my new shop is probably large enough that I can
>position shop equipment and workbenches in a way that would virtually
>eliminate the need for any temporary supports. For example, I can set
>up a permanent outfeed on the table saw large enough to support a full
>sheet of plywood.
>
>So I think I'll skip the wood floor, and go buy some tools. I can
>always change my mind later ... I'll just have to raise the entry door
>if I do.
You might want to position the header over the door with that possibility in
mind.
On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 13:47:37 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 7/27/2011 1:07 PM, Art Greenberg wrote:
>> I've moved into a place that has a large (24 x 50) pole barn on the
>> property. I've started the process of converting it into an enclosed
>> building and I intend to set up my shop in it. I have discovered that
>> the existing concrete slab is not at all flat and is out of level by
>> about 2 inches over a span of about 20 feet.
>>
>> My previous shop was in a basement, also on concrete slab, also out of
>> level and not flat. It was a niusance having to fiddle with roller
>> stands and other temporary supports to compensate for it as was
>> necessary when I moved them. Other than that, I never really noticed the
>> flaw in the floor.
>>
>> I'm considering putting a plywood floor on top of the slab anyway, just
>> so I don't have to stand on concrete. Would it be worth the trouble to
>> raise that floor on sleepers and shim them so the floor is level? Can
>> such a structure be made stiff enough to work well under heavy
>> machinery?
>>
>> TIA.
>>
>
>I have always worked on a concrete garage floor and they have always had
>a slope close to what you are talking about. I don't think there is a
>such thing as a flat concrete floor. Smooth is desirable.
>
>Concerning the concrete floor vs. covering with plywood, I have thought
>about but only as the main floor to start with. you will need at least
>36 sheets of plywood. Figuring $20 for a decent grade you are out &720
>for the plywood alone, add the cost of what you put down under it, and
>your time.
>
>So far I have been working on a concrete floor for 30+ years. Buy a
>"great" pair of shoes and you save a bundle.
Agreed, and if you want even more comfort, put down a spongy
anti-fatigue mat at each tool you stand in front of for any length of
time.
Paint the floor (and ceiling and walls) eggshell white for ease in
finding hardware and doubling your ambient light with no extra lamps.
It makes the whole place feel lighter and airier.
--
Win first, Fight later.
--martial principle of the Samurai
On 7/27/2011 1:07 PM, Art Greenberg wrote:
> I've moved into a place that has a large (24 x 50) pole barn on the
> property. I've started the process of converting it into an enclosed
> building and I intend to set up my shop in it. I have discovered that
> the existing concrete slab is not at all flat and is out of level by
> about 2 inches over a span of about 20 feet.
>
> My previous shop was in a basement, also on concrete slab, also out of
> level and not flat. It was a niusance having to fiddle with roller
> stands and other temporary supports to compensate for it as was
> necessary when I moved them. Other than that, I never really noticed the
> flaw in the floor.
>
> I'm considering putting a plywood floor on top of the slab anyway, just
> so I don't have to stand on concrete. Would it be worth the trouble to
> raise that floor on sleepers and shim them so the floor is level? Can
> such a structure be made stiff enough to work well under heavy
> machinery?
>
> TIA.
I don't see why that would be necessary, but if you're going to go to the
trouble of raising the floor, consider raising it enough to run dust collection
ducting and wiring to the various machines.
--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
On 7/27/11 2:38 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
> I don't see why that would be necessary, but if you're going to go to
> the trouble of raising the floor, consider raising it enough to run dust
> collection ducting and wiring to the various machines.
>
Ding-ding-ding!!!
2" over 20' isn't enough to worry about, in my book.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 7/28/2011 12:47 AM, Morgans wrote:
> The largest advantage of putting down a wood floor, is the opportunity
> to put wire runs down in the floor. I would put a section of plywood
> down with screws, so you can remodel the wires in the future.
I agree there. Wood floor would be ideal. I wouldn't waste the money
if I already had a decent concrete floor, and his slope is no big deal
in that size of shop.
> Also, dust collection in the floor is like sliced bread. No ducts coming
> down from the ceiling to get in the way of long pieces of wood or
> plywood. Once again, even if you don't put it down now, build for
> putting ducts in, sometime in the future.
Yes, wiring and duct work hanging from the ceiling or running across the
floor sucks.
> This is a bit of money to spend, but the payoff could be great. Go for
> it if you can.
Yes, and use regular lumber if you can... Aesthetically pleasing to a
wood worker. Also easier to remove to clean out clogged duct work, or
add cable. Not necessary of course, but a luxury for those with cash.
> If you want to do the ducts, I would use 2 x 6 joists, shimmed with
> 2x4's at the minimum so a 8 inch duct will fit. Go with 12' O.C. spacing
> and support them on the floor about every 4 or 6 feet.
Not sure what he's doing, but I think 8" duct work is too big for most
home systems. Wouldn't you need a lot of air flow to keep a large duct
clean? My shop has an underpowered system with 4" schedule 20 PVC and
it is fine. 8" seems overkill unless in an industrial setting, but I'm
just guessing. If it were me, I'd do 2x6 with 4" duct work.
--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com
On 7/28/11 8:46 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 7/27/2011 4:12 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
>
>> I'll second painting the floor a single color. If you can keep it swept
>> up, finding dropped hardware is easier. (Except for those tiny motor
>> springs. They're NEVER easy to find.)
>
> Just remember that anything dropped in the shop will always end up
> underneath the heaviest, lowest to the ground, most inaccessible corner
> of the furthermost object, 180 degrees from where your eye unmistakeably
> saw it bounce.
>
When I'm looking for it, it ends up at 1280 degrees. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 7/28/2011 4:34 PM, Morgans wrote:
> "Jack Stein" wrote in the future.
>
> I agree there. Wood floor would be ideal. I wouldn't waste the money
> if I already had a decent concrete floor, and his slope is no big deal
> in that size of shop.
>
> Reply- I agree about that slope, and it was probably put there for
> drainage.
> Yes, and use regular lumber if you can... Aesthetically pleasing to a
> wood worker. Also easier to remove to clean out clogged duct work, or
> add cable. Not necessary of course, but a luxury for those with cash.
>
> Reply- No need for treated, if treated shims are used.
I was not referring to treated lumber, just solid wood planking vs
plywood for flooring.
> Not sure what he's doing, but I think 8" duct work is too big for most
> home systems. Wouldn't you need a lot of air flow to keep a large duct
> clean? My shop has an underpowered system with 4" schedule 20 PVC and
> it is fine. 8" seems overkill unless in an industrial setting, but I'm
> just guessing. If it were me, I'd do 2x6 with 4" duct work.
> Reply- Yes, you need a big dust collector for 8" but with all the
> factories and school programs shutting down, that might be a good way to
> get larger size.
I'm thinking with the cost of electricity "necessarily skyrocketing" one
would be looking for a smaller system. I'd think a larger system only
makes sense if you have multiple workers running machines
simultaneously, at least from a cost/space/noise perspective.
--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com
On 7/27/2011 1:07 PM, Art Greenberg wrote:
> I've moved into a place that has a large (24 x 50) pole barn on the
> property. I've started the process of converting it into an enclosed
> building and I intend to set up my shop in it. I have discovered that
> the existing concrete slab is not at all flat and is out of level by
> about 2 inches over a span of about 20 feet.
>
> My previous shop was in a basement, also on concrete slab, also out of
> level and not flat. It was a niusance having to fiddle with roller
> stands and other temporary supports to compensate for it as was
> necessary when I moved them. Other than that, I never really noticed the
> flaw in the floor.
>
> I'm considering putting a plywood floor on top of the slab anyway, just
> so I don't have to stand on concrete. Would it be worth the trouble to
> raise that floor on sleepers and shim them so the floor is level? Can
> such a structure be made stiff enough to work well under heavy
> machinery?
>
> TIA.
>
I have always worked on a concrete garage floor and they have always had
a slope close to what you are talking about. I don't think there is a
such thing as a flat concrete floor. Smooth is desirable.
Concerning the concrete floor vs. covering with plywood, I have thought
about but only as the main floor to start with. you will need at least
36 sheets of plywood. Figuring $20 for a decent grade you are out &720
for the plywood alone, add the cost of what you put down under it, and
your time.
So far I have been working on a concrete floor for 30+ years. Buy a
"great" pair of shoes and you save a bundle.
"Jack Stein" wrote in the future.
I agree there. Wood floor would be ideal. I wouldn't waste the money
if I already had a decent concrete floor, and his slope is no big deal
in that size of shop.
Reply- I agree about that slope, and it was probably put there for
drainage.
Yes, and use regular lumber if you can... Aesthetically pleasing to a
wood worker. Also easier to remove to clean out clogged duct work, or
add cable. Not necessary of course, but a luxury for those with cash.
Reply- No need for treated, if treated shims are used.
> If you want to do the ducts, I would use 2 x 6 joists, shimmed with
> 2x4's at the minimum so a 8 inch duct will fit. Go with 12' O.C. spacing
> and support them on the floor about every 4 or 6 feet.
Not sure what he's doing, but I think 8" duct work is too big for most
home systems. Wouldn't you need a lot of air flow to keep a large duct
clean? My shop has an underpowered system with 4" schedule 20 PVC and
it is fine. 8" seems overkill unless in an industrial setting, but I'm
just guessing. If it were me, I'd do 2x6 with 4" duct work.
Reply- Yes, you need a big dust collector for 8" but with all the factories
and school programs shutting down, that might be a good way to get larger
size.
-- Jim in NC
On Sat, 30 Jul 2011 09:55:03 -0500, Art Greenberg <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Fri, 29 Jul 2011 18:53:53 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2011 12:17:00 -0500, Art Greenberg <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >So I think I'll skip the wood floor, and go buy some tools. I can
>> >always change my mind later ... I'll just have to raise the entry door
>> >if I do.
>>
>> You might want to position the header over the door with that possibility in
>> mind.
>
>Yup.
>
>Or, since the wall the door is in isn't load bearing, I could put in two
>smaller headers, and if/when the time comes, just cut out the lower one.
Even if it is load bearing, just put the header in high enough and add a
couple of 2x4s (or 2x6s, depending on the wall construction) sideways, lower,
just to hold the door frame.
In article <[email protected]>,
Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 7/27/2011 4:12 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
>
> > I'll second painting the floor a single color. If you can keep it swept
> > up, finding dropped hardware is easier. (Except for those tiny motor
> > springs. They're NEVER easy to find.)
>
> Just remember that anything dropped in the shop will always end up
> underneath the heaviest, lowest to the ground, most inaccessible corner
> of the furthermost object, 180 degrees from where your eye unmistakeably
> saw it bounce.
With all that info, it should be easy to find. *S*