Haven't watched the NYWS in a while and had some free time and tuned in -
now I'm irritated again. :)
I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just take
this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take this
to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated molding
machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.
IMHO, if the show is aimed at home woodworkers in general, then stay with
basic tools and teach how to make things with them.
rant mode off -
Now I feel better, :)
Vic
--
There are 10 kinds of people - those who understand binary and those who
don't
"Vic Baron" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Haven't watched the NYWS in a while and had some free time and tuned in -
> now I'm irritated again. :)
>
> I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just take
> this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take
> this to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated molding
> machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.
>
> IMHO, if the show is aimed at home woodworkers in general, then stay with
> basic tools and teach how to make things with them.
>
> rant mode off -
>
> Now I feel better, :)
No kidding, have you seen that cordless drill that he uses on his show every
time? One day maybe I'll be able to get rid of this hand crank drill I have
been using. ;~)
Different strokes for different folks. Personally I would want to graduate
to the next level after a period of time.
Mark & Juanita wrote:
> I think a lot of people who see Norm's shop see it as
> unattainable as an all-at-once acquisition. I started with a few tools and
> have added to them over the past 14 years. A few tools at a time or one at
> a time, and pretty soon you aren't that far off of what the NYW has.
I just checked my shop inventory, and here's what I've acquired over ~
_14_ years (SM = shop made):
Cabinet Saw $1,800.00
8 Jointer $1,100.00
Thicknesser $350.00
Dust Collection $550.00
Drum Sander $1,100.00
Mortiser $950.00
HVLP $700.00
Compressor $300.00
Nail guns $300.00
Disc sander $190.00
Drill Press $200.00
Router table (SM) $100.00
Outfeed (SM) $100.00
Bench $500.00
DT Jig $450.00
Routers $1,200.00
Clamps $1,500.00
Cordless Tools $700.00
Hand Edge Tools $1,500.00
Sharpening $1,000.00
Measuring & Layout $300.00
14" Bandsaw $800.00
Total = $15,690.00
If you look at it:
1.) The list looks a lot like Norm's shop.
2.) There are items that are NOT necessities on the list, like the HVLP,
the big mortiser, the drum sander, the DT jig, $1500 in edge tools, or
the Tormek included in the sharpening total.
3.) I bought nearly everything new, but some were refurbs. More
diligently looking for used could have saved big bucks.
4.) Most of my heavy iron is General, Delta, and Powermatic. Grizzly
might have saved some money if cost was priority one.
5.) I didn't include things you'd need without a wood shop, like
sockets. If you own a home and car, you need that stuff.
14 years = 168 months = less than $100/mo ($25/week)
I've built all the good furniture in my home, probably added $15-20k in
value to my home with hardwood built-ins and trim, as well as earned
$15-20k (net, not gross) with these tools.
Meanwhile, my neighbor just bought a $28,000 camping trailer that he'll
use two weeks a year. He'll also pay $500-600 / yr. in property tax
while it's parked in the yard.
Mark & Juanita wrote:
> Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>>
>> "Mark & Juanita" wrote in
>>>
>>> I think you are spot-on. I don't have a boat or a killer home theater
>>> system, I have a well-equipped shop and a couple of old tractors that
>>> comprise my hobbies. I think a lot of people who see Norm's shop see it
>>> as
>>> unattainable as an all-at-once acquisition. I started with a few tools
>>> and
>>> have added to them over the past 14 years. A few tools at a time or one
>>> at a time, and pretty soon you aren't that far off of what the NYW has.
>>>
>> A couple old tractors, eh? There is nothing that warms an old farm boy's
>> heart like an old tractor. Brings back memories. Lots of stories
>> associated with old tractors. Any pictures you would like to share?
>
Try <www.mklange.cnc.net>. Sorry, the previous one didn't come through
as a link
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough
Lee Michaels wrote:
>
> "Mark & Juanita" wrote in
>>
>> I think you are spot-on. I don't have a boat or a killer home theater
>> system, I have a well-equipped shop and a couple of old tractors that
>> comprise my hobbies. I think a lot of people who see Norm's shop see it
>> as
>> unattainable as an all-at-once acquisition. I started with a few tools
>> and
>> have added to them over the past 14 years. A few tools at a time or one
>> at a time, and pretty soon you aren't that far off of what the NYW has.
>>
> A couple old tractors, eh? There is nothing that warms an old farm boy's
> heart like an old tractor. Brings back memories. Lots of stories
> associated with old tractors. Any pictures you would like to share?
Take a look at <mklange.cnc.net>. If you're looking for more tractor
porn, <www.yesterdaystractors.com> is a great place to look, the photo ads
are always interesting. I'd love to get one like this:
<http://www.tractorshed.com/cgi-bin/
photoads/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=302861&query=retrieval>
(You'll have to join the lines manually, Supernews thinks this is a
commercial posting if I provide the full link). My grandfather on Mom's
side was a big Case person. My other grandfather had John Deere and Rumely
(before my time).
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:47:14 -0700, "Vic Baron" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Haven't watched the NYWS in a while and had some free time and tuned in -
>now I'm irritated again. :)
>
>I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just take
>this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take this
>to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated molding
>machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.
>
>IMHO, if the show is aimed at home woodworkers in general, then stay with
>basic tools and teach how to make things with them.
>
>rant mode off -
>
>Now I feel better, :)
>
>
>Vic
Keep in mind that Morash supplies the funding of all those cool
dedicated machines. No wonder it takes me 2 weeks to build the same
project Norm makes in two days. At least my project is not filled
with brad nails.
"Vic Baron" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Haven't watched the NYWS in a while and had some free time and tuned in -
> now I'm irritated again. :)
>
> I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just take
> this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take
> this to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated molding
> machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.
>
> IMHO, if the show is aimed at home woodworkers in general, then stay with
> basic tools and teach how to make things with them.
>
> rant mode off -
>
> Now I feel better, :)
>
I like it when he says that he needed to smooth something. So he runs it
through that enormous belt sander he has. Ya know, the one big enough to
run a table top through it.
I mean, it would be an incredible luxury to just have the space that monster
occupies, let alone the enormous sander.
Stuart wrote:
> In article
> <43d01177-86dd-46ed-8f75-ec259698bc53@v39g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,
> [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Hmm, well to let you know that PBS does NOT own NYW, TOH or Ask This
>> Old House.
>> Those shows are all produced by Time Warner. They are shown on PBS as
>> well
>> as DIY networks and local channels. Are they elitist?
>
> Being in the UK I know nothing of any of these channels and we don't
> appear to have anything equivalent. Are any of them available over the net?
>
Hi Stuart,
I don't think they are available on the net, but there are a few short
segments on youtube. Just search for new yankee workshop. NYW has a nice
website at newyankee.com . There is always the newyankeecam on the
website if you are really bored and need to kill a few hours.
I ordered the video set on building a kitchen. While I don't do
everything as norm does, it was still a nice review on laying out and
building a kitchen.
Scott.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
"Mark & Juanita" wrote
> Try <www.mklange.cnc.net>. Sorry, the previous one didn't come
> through
> as a link
Nice tractors.
Had an uncle with a 1938 Deere.
Magneto, no cranking motor (ie: stripped bare).
Common comment about him was he was so tight you could hear him coming
from 5 miles away.
Made his own tractor front end mounted, belt driven, saw with maybe a
24" saw blade for cutting brush.
Good thing OSHA didn't exist back then.
Lew
On Aug 30, 12:22 am, Just Wondering <[email protected]> wrote:
> Nevertheless, it's still frustrating when, tuning in to see how to make
> something, Norm uses tools most people will never have. For example,
> using a mortising tool to cut a mortise instead of showing how to make a
> mortise with a drill press, hammer and sharp chisel. And I cringe at
> all the times he uses a brad nailer instead of clamps to hold pieces
> together while the glue dries.
But he HAS shown doing it that way in the past. The thing is that if
you watch many episodes of the show you will see the same task
accomplished with different methods. He can't show you every way to
do something on every project in 20 minutes. I don't think he does as
many things without those dedicated tools as much as he used to, and
maybe that's partially to do with sponsorship. I think it also has to
do with him having done this for a long time and wanting to do things
that still interest him and doing things "the hard way" when you've
got the right tool for the job sitting right there is not his style.
He has done things with hand tools a lot more than he used to. It's
pretty freaky seeing him pull out a japanese style hand saw to make
the odd cut.
Frank:
>
> Sooo....., there may be some restrictions. But the the company (Delta) ge=
ts
> pretty good exposure anyway, even with the restrictions.
>
> Again, I am not complaining or implying anything improper. =A0I just thin=
ks it
> smacks of the elitist, arrogant PBS culture. =A0It just seems a little
> hypocritical to me.
Hmm, well to let you know that PBS does NOT own NYW, TOH or Ask This
Old House.
Those shows are all produced by Time Warner. They are shown on PBS as
well
as DIY networks and local channels. Are they elitist?
Many seem to rail against Norm when he uses a brad nailer, that
wonderful
Timesaver belt sander, the Delta tablesaw, etc. But, few people have
them
but still watch. I'd bet more people took up or tried woodworking
because of
Norm. I haven't heard from anyone who gave it UP because of his tools!
I'm not sure how PBS comes across as elitist in accepting an
underwriter?
If you accept commercials, would that make it non-elitist?
MJM
Late to a thread, as always.
Norm has grown up - as a furniture maker - over the last
dozen years or so. And some of us who started with him
while he was the carpenter on This Old House have grown
with him, both in terms of tools and machines, as well as
furniture making skills. And the competition for viewers
has increased significantly due to a) cable/satellite TV
and b) the internet (YouTube/Streaming Video, etc.)
NYW's strategy seems to be Keep The Viewers You Have
- they're a lucrative demographic - having both time AND
money (well at least some of us Boomer still have some
money - not a lot - but enough to buy a new toy/tool once
every year or so). And THAT audience wants to see
projects which are at or beyond their current capabilities
- with current tools and skills.
And let's face it - after you've made a bathroom or
kitchen cabinet or two - with raised panel doors, Face
Frames & Ply get Not So Challenging. And then you've
got a great REASON (read excuse) for getting another
tool.
If you want a show that uses tools that are hard to
come by - and often expensive - check out Roy Underhill.
So of those antique molding planes etc. are getting
downright pricey.
Norm's Got Toys has become more of an advertisement
for the woodworking tools manufacturers - but he still
makes some interesting stuff that CAN be done without
the $15000 - 36" wide, three drums, drum sander. Come
on - he's only got half an hour, maybe an hour, to make
and finish a Chippendale piece . . .
charlie b
ps - I'm working with a complete novice at furniture making,
doing an 8' tall linen cabinet - with raised panels and raised
panel doors - albeit out of poplar. Today she'll be cutting
a bunch of loose tenon mortise and tenon joints - for the
first time - with the Festool DOMINO. I'm betting she'll do
it quite successfully - and quickly and easily (ok so I set up
the fence and will do one end grain mortise and one side
grain mortise to show her how it's done. Then she'll be
on her own. Will post pics after the piece is done and
installed. The door hinges will probably be the hardest
to get right.
"Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:47:14 -0700, Vic Baron wrote:
>
>> I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just take
>> this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take
>> this
>> to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated molding
>> machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.
>
> That's why I watch the Woodwright's Shop :-).
That's going too far the other way, I don't have time to do everything the
hard way with crude tools. I like power where it can save some heavy labor
and some hand where they can do the fine work. By the way, have you noticed
his hands are covered with band-aids, bandages, blackened finger nails and
other wounds from his tools.
"Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> I too am a BIG fan of Norm's NYWS. I credit him for getting me
> interested/started in woodworking. I try to record all of his NYWS
> shows if I am not home when he comes on. I could care less if there
> are several reruns. I could watch his shows again. I hope he stays on
> for another 20 years or more. I also enjoy Scott Phillips too. The new
> Woodsmith show is also interesting A lot of the old time WWrks'
> criticize Norm, but I think he is a good mentor for us novices and
> intermiate woodworkers.
>
The only thing that annoys me about reruns is when they show the same
select few over and over again. While I enjoy watching the new episodes of
NYWS, I don't enjoy watching them 3 times a day 4 days a week. There's a
lot of good air time that's wasted on PBS's secondary stations. Repeats
are great, especially when you come in late on the first episode, but
there's a limit on how many are practical...
Puckdropper
--
If you're quiet, your teeth never touch your ankles.
To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
In article
<43d01177-86dd-46ed-8f75-ec259698bc53@v39g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,
[email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hmm, well to let you know that PBS does NOT own NYW, TOH or Ask This
> Old House.
> Those shows are all produced by Time Warner. They are shown on PBS as
> well
> as DIY networks and local channels. Are they elitist?
Being in the UK I know nothing of any of these channels and we don't
appear to have anything equivalent. Are any of them available over the net?
--
Stuart Winsor
For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
In article <[email protected]>,
cavisco <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi Stuart,
> I don't think they are available on the net, but there are a few short
> segments on youtube. Just search for new yankee workshop. NYW has a nice
> website at newyankee.com . There is always the newyankeecam on the
> website if you are really bored and need to kill a few hours.
> I ordered the video set on building a kitchen. While I don't do
> everything as norm does, it was still a nice review on laying out and
> building a kitchen.
Thank you, I'll check it all out.
--
Stuart Winsor
For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
In article <Iubvk.328518$Q%[email protected]>,
Micky <[email protected]> wrote:
> PS. Try "Flannelly's" in Coventry on 13th Sept for some Irish
> Country/Trad. I'm playing there!
Bother!
I will be on holiday in Ireland from 10th to 17th!
First time across to Ireland. We're taking the ferry across to Dublin from
Holyhead, staying three nights on the outskirts of Dublin (Dun Laoghaire)
then move south for four nights in a farmhouse, somewhere out in the sticks
between New Ross and Waterford.
Thanks for letting me know anyway.
What's your instrument, I'm a 12 string guitar player - Simon and Patrick.
--
Stuart Winsor
For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
In article <[email protected]>,
Micky <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi Stuart, I play bass
Hmmm, that's interesting.
You live in the area?
Our regular bass player decided to go into the ministry and is now a
curate in Bedworth. They also have a new baby and he is unable to play
for us anymore. There's a close friend of mine who is a first rate
guitarist and bassist who we sometimes rope in but he's a busy man and
sometime's we are stuck.
Your email address has been noted :-)
We use traditional tunes - jigs, reels, hornpipes - mostly english Morris
and dance but there are some scottish and irish tunes thrown in for good
measure.
Graham, who leads our band, when he is not playing melodeon or six-string
guitar, has a very nice Armstrong acoustic bass.
Yes I know we're moving O/T but guitars are made of wood and I've often
fancied having a go at making one. However, a bowed Psaltry might be my
starter into the world of musical instrument making because there aren't any
fancy curves to produce.
Stuart.
--
Stuart Winsor
For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
In article <[email protected]>,
Micky <[email protected]> wrote:
> > However, a bowed Psaltry might be my starter into the world of musical
> > instrument making because there aren't any fancy curves to produce.
Sort of replying to my own post here but it set me thinking.
Anyone round here got any plans for making a bowed Psaltry?
--
Stuart Winsor
For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
In article <[email protected]>,
Micky <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi Stuart, you can email me direct. Email is good
So is mine believe it or not :-)
Stuart.
--
Stuart Winsor
For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
"Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:47:14 -0700, Vic Baron wrote:
>
>> I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just take
>> this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take
>> this
>> to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated molding
>> machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.
>
> That's why I watch the Woodwright's Shop :-).
That is like knowing and waiting for an accident to happen. ;~)
On Aug 29, 11:57=A0am, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> LOL I can sympathize with him on that ... we all have our Achilles heel! =
:)
No kidding. Sometimes I feel like both of mine are!
Robert
"Vic Baron" wrote
> now I'm irritated again. :)
Simple solution for that ... hit the "next" button. ;)
For me, as one whose interest in furniture design has developed and advanced
beyond simply copying a plan, it is the _project_ itself, followed by Norm's
take on the joinery/method of construction of each, that has become the
focus of my interest in his shows ... not the tools he chooses for each
step.
IOW, the more complicated the projects that I've designed and built _without
benefit of plans_, the more I have begun to appreciate Norm's take on the
methodology of constructing the project, whether it reaffirms, or differs
from, what I have already figured out on my own as the best way to do
something.
Then there was Bruce Johnson ... proving there are some you just can't learn
a damn thing from ... unless it's how not to. :)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/18/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
>> It's like Nascar for Woodworkers!
>
> So it's like wannabes buying Pontiacs and driving like idiots on the
> highway? Not sure I see the connection. ;~)
No it is like the 95% of NASCAR fans that watch a NASCAR race hoping for
their favorite driver to win and just itching to see the inevitable crashes.
You don't know exactly when but you do know you are going to see a NASCAR
crash/Woodwright guy cut his finger.
On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 08:59:49 -0400, B A R R Y <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Mark & Juanita wrote:
>> I think a lot of people who see Norm's shop see it as
>> unattainable as an all-at-once acquisition. I started with a few tools and
>> have added to them over the past 14 years. A few tools at a time or one at
>> a time, and pretty soon you aren't that far off of what the NYW has.
>
>I just checked my shop inventory, and here's what I've acquired over ~
>_14_ years (SM = shop made):
>
>Cabinet Saw $1,800.00
>8 Jointer $1,100.00
>Thicknesser $350.00
>Dust Collection $550.00
>Drum Sander $1,100.00
>Mortiser $950.00
>HVLP $700.00
>Compressor $300.00
>Nail guns $300.00
>Disc sander $190.00
>Drill Press $200.00
>Router table (SM) $100.00
>Outfeed (SM) $100.00
>Bench $500.00
>DT Jig $450.00
>Routers $1,200.00
>Clamps $1,500.00
>Cordless Tools $700.00
>Hand Edge Tools $1,500.00
>Sharpening $1,000.00
>Measuring & Layout $300.00
>14" Bandsaw $800.00
>
>Total = $15,690.00
>
>
>If you look at it:
>
>1.) The list looks a lot like Norm's shop.
>2.) There are items that are NOT necessities on the list, like the HVLP,
>the big mortiser, the drum sander, the DT jig, $1500 in edge tools, or
>the Tormek included in the sharpening total.
>3.) I bought nearly everything new, but some were refurbs. More
>diligently looking for used could have saved big bucks.
>4.) Most of my heavy iron is General, Delta, and Powermatic. Grizzly
>might have saved some money if cost was priority one.
>5.) I didn't include things you'd need without a wood shop, like
>sockets. If you own a home and car, you need that stuff.
>
>14 years = 168 months = less than $100/mo ($25/week)
>
>I've built all the good furniture in my home, probably added $15-20k in
> value to my home with hardwood built-ins and trim, as well as earned
>$15-20k (net, not gross) with these tools.
>
>
>Meanwhile, my neighbor just bought a $28,000 camping trailer that he'll
>use two weeks a year. He'll also pay $500-600 / yr. in property tax
>while it's parked in the yard.
My list is very similar to Barry's, although I see a miter saw missing
on the list. I probably spent too much on my $4500 lathe, no
cordless tools, a $900 industrial oscillating sander, a shop-made
roll-around air filter/sanding table, and probably $3000 in hand tools
and bits. My router table is shop-made too, but even that cost me at
least $400 in parts/materials (well worth the cost and time to build).
Can't help but be envious of the huge sanding machine in NYW.
On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 19:26:51 -0500, "David G. Nagel"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Not to mention painting out the green on the power hand tools.
When did he do that and to what tool?
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
http://www.normstools.com
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.
spaco wrote:
> He IS the "power tool junkie", isn't he?
> There are occasional woodworking shows where the guy has fewer tools.
>
> I enjoy watching Norm at lot more than Billy Mays!!!!
>
> Pete Stanaitis
> ---------------
>
> Vic Baron wrote:
>> Haven't watched the NYWS in a while and had some free time and tuned
>> in - now I'm irritated again. :)
>>
>> I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just
>> take this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll
>> just take this to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a
>> dedicated molding machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.
>>
>> IMHO, if the show is aimed at home woodworkers in general, then stay
>> with basic tools and teach how to make things with them.
>>
>> rant mode off -
>>
>> Now I feel better, :)
>>
>>
>> Vic
>>
Before everyone gets to upset, please note that many of the hotshot
tools are donated to the program by the manufacturer/retail sales store.
That's how he got the BIG belt sander. The carved wood sign was donated
also.
What gets me is David Marks and his marvelous MULTI-ROUTER. He sells it
for something like $3,500. That and his favorite wood finish: TUNG Oil
Dave N
"Mark & Juanita" wrote:
> Dad has a 39 JD A, same amenities. You haven't lived until you've
> tried
> hand-cranking a cantankerous engine when it's below 0, the oil is
> thick as
> grease and you've got to the the thing fired up because you need to
> loader.
Stopped to see this uncle back in 1983 time frame on a sales trip thru
Indiana.
Hadn't seen this uncle since 1955 and at the time he was approaching
80+.
Had gotten rid of almost everything on the farm except for an old
weather beaten shed where he still kept the tractor.
After a visit, he walked me out to the shed and the tractor which sat
there with a rusty Campbell's soup can upside down covering the
exhaust pipe.
The can kept the birds out of the exhaust pipe.
"There are only two things I'll always keep, my wife and this
tractor", he told me.
My uncle removed the can, walked around to the left side of the
tractor where the flywheel was located and reached into the tractor,
flipped a couple of valves/switches and assumed an almost straddle
position in front of that flywheel, cradling it in his hands.
Cocked his head to get his ear closer to the tractor and began to
gently rock that flywheel back and forth.
Suddenly, a quick drive of a leg, a turn of the shoulders, and the old
Deere came to life.
It was almost as if a sex act between man and machine had been
committed right in front of my eyes.
I had just witnessed what a 50 year relationship between a man and his
tools was all about.
Lew
On Aug 29, 10:04=A0am, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Vic Baron" wrote
>
> > now I'm irritated again. :)
>
> Simple solution for that ... hit the "next" button. ;)
I was thinking the same thing. I don't watch Oprah, I don't watch
Maury, nor any of the judge shows. I rarely watch anything with my
free time that irritates me.
> For me, as one whose interest in furniture design has developed and advan=
ced
> beyond simply copying a plan, it is the _project_ itself, followed by Nor=
m's
> take on the joinery/method of construction of each, that has become the
> focus of my interest in his shows ... not the tools he chooses for each
> step.
I think few truly understand and actually appreciate the breadth of
Norm's experience and projects. Or his experience with tools and his
knowledge of how to creatively apply their uses. Or his huge variance
in project selections.
In all the years I have been on this group as well as a few others,
there have been Norm bashers. I don't know why as I have never heard
him set himself out as an ancient zen master of woodworking as say,
Krenov. He has never, ever, put himself on a pedestal. He has never
held himself up and anything more than a simple woodworker, which is
simply not true. He shows doable projects that can challenge the
neophyte as well as the experienced wood worker.
When I started, the best advice I ever received about woodworking came
from my boss. I didn't have the tool in the truck to do a specific
job that I was assigned to do. So, I went back and complained to him
that we didn't have the right tools to do the job, so we couldn't do
the work.
He blew up. "WTF do you think is going on here? Where do you think
you are, in a tool store? Do you think where ever you go to work you
will always have the perfect tool for the work? Either go over there
and get it done or you can go home because I don't need you".
It didn't sound like advice and guidance at the time, but it certainly
was. For those that think they cannot do some of the projects because
they don't have the tools Norm does, they need to rethink their
procedures. They need to rethink their methods.
Norm builds by procedure, each project step by step. He shows how to
use the tools he has. But I have seen enough of him to bet any money
that without many of the tools he uses in the show, he could still get
the job done without many of them.
> IOW, the more complicated the projects that I've designed and built _with=
out
> benefit of plans_, the more I have begun to appreciate Norm's take on the
> methodology of constructing the project, whether it reaffirms, or differs
> from, what I have already figured out on my own as the best way to do
> something.
Allow me to expand on that a bit. I think there is a curve of
appreciation on watching Norm's show.
When many are beginning woodworking, some folks lay the fact that he
can do all the neat things on the idea that he has all the tools to do
what he does. So the tools make things so easy, he has a huge
advantage.
Then skills pick up, you find yourself able to do more with the tools
you have, and you start to think you are "getting it". You understand
more of what you read about woodworking, and more of the concepts
involved.
You knock out a couple of book cases, maybe a project for the wife,
and of course a couple of heritage pieces for the kids.
Now you are a craftsman. You have tools, a few projects behind you,
and your family and friends love your work. You must be good at this
stuff, right? Everyone says so.
People ask you for advice from time to time on their projects. You
try to help, but sometimes working with a noob can be frustrating.
You do what you can.
You decide that you like doing something differently than the examples
of work you have seen on TV. Great! The more you participate in ANY
craft, the more you realize how many paths there are to reach the same
goal, so you should get that fact.
Then, the dreaded day comes; you think you are better than you are.
Yup; definitely a better craft person than your neighbor, your wife
tells you that the vanity you built for he bathroom is much better
than the ones she has seen in the store, and the kids pounding on
their toy boxes and step ups haven't broken them yet. And that
storage shed you built out back to look like a little barn is holding
up quite well.
(Note: Norm STILL hasn't hit this point. He talks with a great
amount of respect of people that are in all manner of trades, and
seems to get a real sense of appreciation of his fellow craftsmen.)
Back to the curve, you are now dismissive of Norm and his baseball bat
project, his shadow boxes, or his coffee tables. You toss in the heap
his blanket chests, his Federalist style furniture, etc., and let your
buddies know you aren't impressed. Hell ya, you could build any of
that stuff if you just had the time, right?
You quit watching Norm.
If you keep working on developing your skills, or start to work
professionally, you change your idea of where you are in the big
picture of woodworking skill sets. Probably not as far along as you
thought if you are around the right people.
Then one day it rains on Saturday and you are inside. Nothing on TV,
nothing to do outside, so between the cooking shows you decide to see
what Norm's up to.
You now have different eyes to see this work. Eyes that understand
that one little detail in design and execution can save hours of
work. These details don't have anything to do with the tools he
uses. But you missed the details the first time because he didn't
sound a horn when he is executing them, and since they didn't look
that important you missed them. But now you see.
Then you start to appreciate Norm. My style of building in my
business is different from Norm's. There was no Norm when I started,
and we didn't have a lot of tools. We were on site carpenters, and we
learned to use the tools we had. My old habits are sometimes hard to
break, and I don't.
But on the other hand (see, here comes the end of the curve, right
there at your post) I really appreciate a good look at alternatives to
all kinds of carpentry work. I like Norm's pragmatic organization/
detailing/procedures in building his work as that is the way my mind
works.
So in the end, I think you have to learn more to appreciate old Norm
for what he really is; a good teacher and a fearless woodworker.
Pretty damn good craftsman, too.
Just don't get me going about his finishing...
Robert
On Sep 1, 11:27=A0am, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> Yo, Robert! (BTW, there is STILL a large salmon swimming around in
> Georgian Bay with my name on it. He bumped the bottom of the boat a
> few times just to piss me off, did a few 'Flipper-style' tail-walks
> while giving me the fin, but all I could catch was cold.)
That good sir, is why I am not a fisherman. I can't stand being
sneered at by animals farther down the food chain than I am. And I
have to say, if you caught a cold, that's more than I caught my last
couple of trips.
> He is not playing to the pros, but he is playing to an audience which
> includes guys and gals who 'get the bug' by watching him.
I think his projects have elevated a bit, though. I remember when he
was building magazine racks, and stuff like that.
I think he gets a lot of those neat tools in there to generate some
interest, and to mix it up a bit. I think some of them are employed
to get the ratings up by keeping folks around that think they might
see something that is at least interesting.
>Many think
> that they are able to do what he does, and in many cases they are. I
> think that is a wonderful thing.
> But, none of that takes away the fact that Norm is a corporation with
> a great marketing machine.
But isn't that the genius of Norm and his producers/directors/project
coordinators, etc.? You HAVE to make the projects seem that at least
some of them are within reach. I can't imagine watching anyone every
week that made projects that were profoundly complicated, ones I knew
I could never make.
And as far as the corporate part goes, I agree. I have heard about
and been asked by hobby guys what I think about specific tools that
Norm has and uses. Some folks think that certain tools are only made
by one company. So when they see a PC biscuit machine in Norm's
hands, they think PC, not DeWalt, Makita, Lamello, etc.
I cool with the idea that Norm has those guys sponsoring his shows. I
isn't one of Hollywood's big expense shows, but it can't be cheap for
its niche market.
I read an article long ago about the relation of Norm to Russel
Morash, his sponsors, etc. Even Norm said he was surprised at how
much his show cost to make and distribute. He allowed too, that on
some of the more complex projects he built them twice before he built
the show model! So three times in all.
According to Russel, he said that they are not 100% funded by their
sponsors, but that they make up a large part of their budget. He was
acutely aware though, that he could be replaced at any time by another
cooking or gardening show in any given market, so he and Norm work
hard to make as good a show as they can make. (As a sidebar, while
fighting it out in our local market, we had no NYY for a year or so
until they could come to terms.)
Our local PBS carried Scott Phillips for a year or so, The Furniture
Guys for one year, and have totally missed on other shows that sounded
interesting. So it is Norm, TOH, and cooking on Saturdays around
here. That make Norm hit and miss for me.
> I don't believe that it goes unnoticed by the Milwaukee people that
> Norm isn't using any of their tools; they'd like to knock that DeWalt
> drill out of Norm's hand, I'm sure.
Seems his big sponsors, Porter Cable and Delta, try to cover all the
bases for his tool needs. I have seen a tool from time to time that
has a piece of tape on it where the logo should be. I think that
means someone dropped out or they didn't get the tool from PC to him
in time for taping.
> Personally, I get my important input from Woodweb and here.
Outside of my local amigos that might be using certain tools, there
are absolutely many more valuable opinions here and Woodweb than just
about anywhere else.
Robert
On Sep 2, 1:15=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
[snipped, for brevity's sake, an intelligent discussion about Norm.]
>
> Outside of my local amigos that might be using certain tools, there
> are =A0absolutely many more valuable opinions here and Woodweb than just
> about anywhere else.
>
I just spent 2 x 3 hours with the designers and builders of my new
toy, adding a few features, such as proximity/limit switches, crawling
all over the thing with a bezillion questions. The General/Gorilla
combo is just brilliant. The power and strength of a world renowned
heavy iron tool manufacturer joined up with a few very clever and
young minds. Add to that the skills of a guy who's experience includes
building some really tricky tooling for Diamond Aircraft. Quite a
pedigree indeed.
The next projects are going to be really interesting.
I wonder how long it will be before Norm gets himself a CNC router.
*S*
r
He IS the "power tool junkie", isn't he?
There are occasional woodworking shows where the guy has fewer tools.
I enjoy watching Norm at lot more than Billy Mays!!!!
Pete Stanaitis
---------------
Vic Baron wrote:
> Haven't watched the NYWS in a while and had some free time and tuned in
> - now I'm irritated again. :)
>
> I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just take
> this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take
> this to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated
> molding machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.
>
> IMHO, if the show is aimed at home woodworkers in general, then stay
> with basic tools and teach how to make things with them.
>
> rant mode off -
>
> Now I feel better, :)
>
>
> Vic
>
Vic Baron wrote:
>
>
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Vic Baron" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>
>>> I think that he can scare away as many new woodworkers as he attracts
>>> - at least with this type of show.
>>>
>>
>> So what? Do you really believe those beloved "old ways" would be more
>> enticing to those scores of new woodworkers that you suspect he scares
>> away?
>>
>> --
>>
>> -Mike-
>> [email protected]
>>
>
> "So what" could be said about any post in any thread - it's my opinion
> and I'm sticking to it.
>
> And who the heck said anything about beloved old ways? I don't really
> give a rat's ass. I am being totally selfish. I do not use a dedicated
> molding machine and I want to see how he would do it without. I am not
> interested in seeing him use tools that are beyond the average *home*
> woodworker. If I wanted to see how a major woodworking company might
> tackle a project, I'd look elsewhere.
Norm has, does and will do just that. He has many times made a multipart
molding on some of his cabinets and does a great job.
Dave
[email protected] wrote:
> On Aug 29, 10:04 am, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Vic Baron" wrote
>>
>>> now I'm irritated again. :)
>> Simple solution for that ... hit the "next" button. ;)
>
> I was thinking the same thing. I don't watch Oprah, I don't watch
> Maury, nor any of the judge shows. I rarely watch anything with my
> free time that irritates me.
>
>> For me, as one whose interest in furniture design has developed and advanced
>> beyond simply copying a plan, it is the _project_ itself, followed by Norm's
>> take on the joinery/method of construction of each, that has become the
>> focus of my interest in his shows ... not the tools he chooses for each
>> step.
>
> I think few truly understand and actually appreciate the breadth of
> Norm's experience and projects. Or his experience with tools and his
> knowledge of how to creatively apply their uses. Or his huge variance
> in project selections.
>
> In all the years I have been on this group as well as a few others,
> there have been Norm bashers. I don't know why as I have never heard
> him set himself out as an ancient zen master of woodworking as say,
> Krenov. He has never, ever, put himself on a pedestal. He has never
> held himself up and anything more than a simple woodworker, which is
> simply not true. He shows doable projects that can challenge the
> neophyte as well as the experienced wood worker.
>
> When I started, the best advice I ever received about woodworking came
> from my boss. I didn't have the tool in the truck to do a specific
> job that I was assigned to do. So, I went back and complained to him
> that we didn't have the right tools to do the job, so we couldn't do
> the work.
>
> He blew up. "WTF do you think is going on here? Where do you think
> you are, in a tool store? Do you think where ever you go to work you
> will always have the perfect tool for the work? Either go over there
> and get it done or you can go home because I don't need you".
>
> It didn't sound like advice and guidance at the time, but it certainly
> was. For those that think they cannot do some of the projects because
> they don't have the tools Norm does, they need to rethink their
> procedures. They need to rethink their methods.
>
> Norm builds by procedure, each project step by step. He shows how to
> use the tools he has. But I have seen enough of him to bet any money
> that without many of the tools he uses in the show, he could still get
> the job done without many of them.
>
>> IOW, the more complicated the projects that I've designed and built _without
>> benefit of plans_, the more I have begun to appreciate Norm's take on the
>> methodology of constructing the project, whether it reaffirms, or differs
>> from, what I have already figured out on my own as the best way to do
>> something.
>
> Allow me to expand on that a bit. I think there is a curve of
> appreciation on watching Norm's show.
>
> When many are beginning woodworking, some folks lay the fact that he
> can do all the neat things on the idea that he has all the tools to do
> what he does. So the tools make things so easy, he has a huge
> advantage.
>
> Then skills pick up, you find yourself able to do more with the tools
> you have, and you start to think you are "getting it". You understand
> more of what you read about woodworking, and more of the concepts
> involved.
>
> You knock out a couple of book cases, maybe a project for the wife,
> and of course a couple of heritage pieces for the kids.
>
> Now you are a craftsman. You have tools, a few projects behind you,
> and your family and friends love your work. You must be good at this
> stuff, right? Everyone says so.
>
> People ask you for advice from time to time on their projects. You
> try to help, but sometimes working with a noob can be frustrating.
> You do what you can.
>
> You decide that you like doing something differently than the examples
> of work you have seen on TV. Great! The more you participate in ANY
> craft, the more you realize how many paths there are to reach the same
> goal, so you should get that fact.
>
> Then, the dreaded day comes; you think you are better than you are.
>
> Yup; definitely a better craft person than your neighbor, your wife
> tells you that the vanity you built for he bathroom is much better
> than the ones she has seen in the store, and the kids pounding on
> their toy boxes and step ups haven't broken them yet. And that
> storage shed you built out back to look like a little barn is holding
> up quite well.
>
> (Note: Norm STILL hasn't hit this point. He talks with a great
> amount of respect of people that are in all manner of trades, and
> seems to get a real sense of appreciation of his fellow craftsmen.)
>
> Back to the curve, you are now dismissive of Norm and his baseball bat
> project, his shadow boxes, or his coffee tables. You toss in the heap
> his blanket chests, his Federalist style furniture, etc., and let your
> buddies know you aren't impressed. Hell ya, you could build any of
> that stuff if you just had the time, right?
>
> You quit watching Norm.
>
> If you keep working on developing your skills, or start to work
> professionally, you change your idea of where you are in the big
> picture of woodworking skill sets. Probably not as far along as you
> thought if you are around the right people.
>
> Then one day it rains on Saturday and you are inside. Nothing on TV,
> nothing to do outside, so between the cooking shows you decide to see
> what Norm's up to.
>
> You now have different eyes to see this work. Eyes that understand
> that one little detail in design and execution can save hours of
> work. These details don't have anything to do with the tools he
> uses. But you missed the details the first time because he didn't
> sound a horn when he is executing them, and since they didn't look
> that important you missed them. But now you see.
>
> Then you start to appreciate Norm. My style of building in my
> business is different from Norm's. There was no Norm when I started,
> and we didn't have a lot of tools. We were on site carpenters, and we
> learned to use the tools we had. My old habits are sometimes hard to
> break, and I don't.
>
> But on the other hand (see, here comes the end of the curve, right
> there at your post) I really appreciate a good look at alternatives to
> all kinds of carpentry work. I like Norm's pragmatic organization/
> detailing/procedures in building his work as that is the way my mind
> works.
>
> So in the end, I think you have to learn more to appreciate old Norm
> for what he really is; a good teacher and a fearless woodworker.
> Pretty damn good craftsman, too.
>
> Just don't get me going about his finishing...
>
> Robert
Robert;
It should also be noted that Norm isn't above commenting that he just
learned a new trick or new technique from someone.
I know that I learn something from every show I watch, even one that I
have seen a dozen times.
Norm is a TEACHER as well as a CRAFTSMAN.
He's just luckier than you and I.
Dave N
"Mark & Juanita" wrote in
>
> I think you are spot-on. I don't have a boat or a killer home theater
> system, I have a well-equipped shop and a couple of old tractors that
> comprise my hobbies. I think a lot of people who see Norm's shop see it
> as
> unattainable as an all-at-once acquisition. I started with a few tools
> and
> have added to them over the past 14 years. A few tools at a time or one at
> a time, and pretty soon you aren't that far off of what the NYW has.
>
A couple old tractors, eh? There is nothing that warms an old farm boy's
heart like an old tractor. Brings back memories. Lots of stories
associated with old tractors. Any pictures you would like to share?
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> An observation:
>
> No where in these tools lists do I find a coffee pot.
>
That's still in the kitchen where I go to reacquaint myself with the
spouse and try to contain her shopping urges.
Dave N
> "Lee Gordon" wrote:
>
>> I'm pretty sure Norm has already acknowledged that most of us can't
>> have a big ole Timesaver in our own shops (even the one in the NYW
>> is "on loan") and has therefore suggested that if the need for one
>> arises, we should inquire about renting time on one from a local
>> cabinet shop.
>
> That is my choice.
>
> A typical commercial drum sander has 3, 25HP motors, each driving a
> separate grit, and at least a 20HP dust collector complete with bag
> house.
>
> Anything in a home shop is a toy by comparison.
>
> Typical charges around here are $25-$30 for 20 minutes.
>
> $1/minute, after that.
>
> You do a LOT of sanding in 20 minutes.
>
> Lew
>
>
>
An observation:
No where in these tools lists do I find a coffee pot.
"Lee Gordon" wrote:
> I'm pretty sure Norm has already acknowledged that most of us can't
> have a big ole Timesaver in our own shops (even the one in the NYW
> is "on loan") and has therefore suggested that if the need for one
> arises, we should inquire about renting time on one from a local
> cabinet shop.
That is my choice.
A typical commercial drum sander has 3, 25HP motors, each driving a
separate grit, and at least a 20HP dust collector complete with bag
house.
Anything in a home shop is a toy by comparison.
Typical charges around here are $25-$30 for 20 minutes.
$1/minute, after that.
You do a LOT of sanding in 20 minutes.
Lew
"Stuart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article
> <43d01177-86dd-46ed-8f75-ec259698bc53@v39g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,
> [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Hmm, well to let you know that PBS does NOT own NYW, TOH or Ask This
>> Old House.
>> Those shows are all produced by Time Warner. They are shown on PBS as
>> well
>> as DIY networks and local channels. Are they elitist?
>
> Being in the UK I know nothing of any of these channels and we don't
> appear to have anything equivalent. Are any of them available over the
> net?
>
> --
> Stuart Winsor
>
> For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
> See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
Hi Stuart,
This Old House and New Yankee Workshop are often able to be seen on the
Discovery Real-time and Discovery Real-time Extra channels on Sky and cable
TV, BUT be prepared to see only the 2003 & 2004 (for TOH) and 2004
(for NYW) season shows as Discovery in their wisdom hasn't deemed it fit for
us to see any of the later (or earlier) seasons. A real shame as I have
learned so much from them.
Yours (thoroughly disgusted with Discovery Real-time)
Micky
PS. Try "Flannelly's" in Coventry on 13th Sept for some Irish Country/Trad.
I'm playing there!
"Mark Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:47:14 -0700, Vic Baron wrote:
>>>
>>>> I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just
>>>> take
>>>> this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take
>>>> this
>>>> to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated molding
>>>> machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.
>>>
>>> That's why I watch the Woodwright's Shop :-).
>>
>> That is like knowing and waiting for an accident to happen. ;~)
>
> It's like Nascar for Woodworkers!
So it's like wannabes buying Pontiacs and driving like idiots on the
highway? Not sure I see the connection. ;~)
John
Just Wondering wrote:
>
> Nevertheless, it's still frustrating when, tuning in to see how to make
> something, Norm uses tools most people will never have. For example,
> using a mortising tool to cut a mortise instead of showing how to make a
> mortise with a drill press, hammer and sharp chisel.
I have a mortiser. You can too, perfectly usable versions can be had
for ~ $300, maybe much less if used.
I use my mortiser on every project, others might use it as a coat rack.
Before my machine was obtained, I used a router, or the method you
mention. It's all good, we choose how to spend our shop budgets based
on personal tastes.
Picking up a side job or selling a custom piece here or there can
greatly increase the shop budget. I started out repairing broken
cabinet doors, work that was not worth the time of local cabinet shops.
I left some inkjet cards with the local shops, and found I could make
decent blow money surgically fixing doors. Once I learned which ones to
turn away, the margins got even better.
I never expected to own a mortiser, until I got a shot making some
custom interior passage doors. A few weeks of part-time work paid for
my time AND a new stand-up machine.
> And I cringe at
> all the times he uses a brad nailer instead of clamps to hold pieces
> together while the glue dries.
So use clamps. Is he holding the brad nailer to your head? <g>
Maybe David Marks shouldn't show his Multi-Router? That's right, there
are MR owners on this forum.
Maybe we should pick on Chris Schwartz because he uses $1000+ infill
planes instead of Anant planes?
Will you ever have a hand made infill smoother or Multi-Router? I
probably won't, but who knows? <g>
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> "Vic Baron" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Haven't watched the NYWS in a while and had some free time and tuned in -
> > now I'm irritated again. :)
> >
> > I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just take
> > this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take
> > this to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated molding
> > machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.
> >
> > IMHO, if the show is aimed at home woodworkers in general, then stay with
> > basic tools and teach how to make things with them.
> >
> > rant mode off -
> >
> > Now I feel better, :)
> >
>
> I like it when he says that he needed to smooth something. So he runs it
> through that enormous belt sander he has. Ya know, the one big enough to
> run a table top through it.
>
> I mean, it would be an incredible luxury to just have the space that monster
> occupies, let alone the enormous sander.
When he made a blanket chest, he used a belt sander
to flush the dovetail joints. I can't fault his results,
but his method was an eyebrow raiser.
S.
Robatoy wrote:
> Yo, Robert! (BTW, there is STILL a large salmon swimming around in
> Georgian Bay with my name on it. He bumped the bottom of the boat a
> few times just to piss me off, did a few 'Flipper-style' tail-walks
> while giving me the fin, but all I could catch was cold.)
Last time I was in the Bay, "Perry the Pike" and his buddies ruled
those waters.
Had to get into the open waters of Lake Huron on a boat with down
riggers to get any salmon interest.
Lew
B A R R Y wrote:
> Vic Baron wrote:
>>
>> I am not
>> interested in seeing him use tools that are beyond the average *home*
>> woodworker.
>
> I just thought of something else.
>
> "The Average Home Woodworker"...
>
> If you take away the TimeSaver, Norm might be a lot more average than we
> think.
>
> When I think of amateur woodworkers here, on the various web forums,
> that I've met at seminars or classes, etc... The folks who have been at
> it for a few years and are very serious about the craft have home shops
> just like Norm.
>
> It's not all that much of a stretch, either. Norm's shop brand new,
> minus the Timesaver, would cost less than a decent boat, a Harley, a
> killer home theatre system, a grand piano, a few years of season tickets
> to major sports, a few seasons of golf on nice courses, a hobby car
> (show or race), a horse, etc... Yet we all know people with custom
> Harleys, boats, show cars, grand pianos, horses...
>
.. snip of other good stuff
I think you are spot-on. I don't have a boat or a killer home theater
system, I have a well-equipped shop and a couple of old tractors that
comprise my hobbies. I think a lot of people who see Norm's shop see it as
unattainable as an all-at-once acquisition. I started with a few tools and
have added to them over the past 14 years. A few tools at a time or one at
a time, and pretty soon you aren't that far off of what the NYW has.
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough
"Frank Boettcher" wrote
>
> Actually, having worked for an underwriter, I believe it is they who
> supply all those nice machines. And since they are restricted in the
> manner in which they can hawk same, the agreement is usually that they
> will be used on the show for appropriate operations.
>
Yabbut, blotting out the trademark will only fool the absolute novice. Most
people can recognize the brand of tool. Besides, isn't there a commercial
for the primary brand of tool on there anyway?
Sooo....., there may be some restrictions. But the the company (Delta) gets
pretty good exposure anyway, even with the restrictions.
Again, I am not complaining or implying anything improper. I just thinks it
smacks of the elitist, arrogant PBS culture. It just seems a little
hypocritical to me.
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Vic Baron" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>> I think that he can scare away as many new woodworkers as he attracts -
>> at least with this type of show.
>>
>
> So what? Do you really believe those beloved "old ways" would be more
> enticing to those scores of new woodworkers that you suspect he scares
> away?
>
> --
>
> -Mike-
> [email protected]
>
"So what" could be said about any post in any thread - it's my opinion and
I'm sticking to it.
And who the heck said anything about beloved old ways? I don't really give a
rat's ass. I am being totally selfish. I do not use a dedicated molding
machine and I want to see how he would do it without. I am not interested in
seeing him use tools that are beyond the average *home* woodworker. If I
wanted to see how a major woodworking company might tackle a project, I'd
look elsewhere.
"B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Just Wondering wrote:
>>
> Maybe David Marks shouldn't show his Multi-Router? That's right, there
> are MR owners on this forum.
>
> Maybe we should pick on Chris Schwartz because he uses $1000+ infill
> planes instead of Anant planes?
>
> Will you ever have a hand made infill smoother or Multi-Router? I
> probably won't, but who knows? <g>
What the sponsors are counting on is your level of perceived need or envy
overcoming your good senses... Schwarz isn't immune from that based on his
latest post on http://blog.lostartpress.com. ;~)
John
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> Had gotten rid of almost everything on the farm except for an old weather
> beaten shed where he still kept the tractor.
>
> After a visit, he walked me out to the shed and the tractor which sat
> there with a rusty Campbell's soup can upside down covering the exhaust
> pipe.
>
> The can kept the birds out of the exhaust pipe.
>
> "There are only two things I'll always keep, my wife and this tractor", he
> told me.
>
> My uncle removed the can, walked around to the left side of the tractor
> where the flywheel was located and reached into the tractor, flipped a
> couple of valves/switches and assumed an almost straddle position in front
> of that flywheel, cradling it in his hands.
>
> Cocked his head to get his ear closer to the tractor and began to gently
> rock that flywheel back and forth.
>
> Suddenly, a quick drive of a leg, a turn of the shoulders, and the old
> Deere came to life.
>
> It was almost as if a sex act between man and machine had been committed
> right in front of my eyes.
>
> I had just witnessed what a 50 year relationship between a man and his
> tools was all about.
>
We put cans over the (vertical) exhaust pipe to keep the rain out of the
engine.
Yep, I used to work on a dairy farm three miles down the road. Old man
Swanson was a machinist with a complete machine shop who loved old
machinery. Working there was like working in a museum.
He had an old tractor without a steering wheel. Everything on it was levers.
It was a massive one cylinder engine with a giant flywheel on the side.
Interestingly enough, no matter how cold it was, this old one cylinder was
always start.
Robatoy wrote:
>
> I wonder how long it will be before Norm gets himself a CNC router.
I think of this myself, on a serious note.
Compare with amateur radio and performance hot rodding... The radio
hobby has evolved from home brewed gear to "software defined radio".
Some hot rodders have moved away from carb tweaks and raw HP, in the
direction of chips and software to tune engines and traction control,
data logging, etc...
How many folks in the 70's and 80's did actual dyno runs to check
changes to the car? <G> These days, it's not that odd. Within 15
minutes of my home, there are at least (4) dynos available by the hour.
While the computer aspect turns off the purists, it has a way of
attracting new participants.
There are already lots of metalworking hobbyists with CNC gear. Some
are long experienced folks, the types who had large Bridgeport machines
in the garage, others are attracted to the hobby by the CNC aspect.
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Mark & Juanita" wrote
>> Try <www.mklange.cnc.net>. Sorry, the previous one didn't come
>> through
>> as a link
>
> Nice tractors.
>
> Had an uncle with a 1938 Deere.
>
> Magneto, no cranking motor (ie: stripped bare).
>
Dad has a 39 JD A, same amenities. You haven't lived until you've tried
hand-cranking a cantankerous engine when it's below 0, the oil is thick as
grease and you've got to the the thing fired up because you need to loader.
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough
On Aug 30, 6:04=A0pm, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
>=A0Norm's shop brand new,
> minus the Timesaver, would cost less than a decent boat, a Harley, a
> killer home theatre system, a grand piano, a few years of season tickets
> to major sports, a few seasons of golf on nice courses, a hobby car
> (show or race), a horse, etc... =A0Yet we all know people with custom
> Harleys, boats, show cars, grand pianos, horses...
Excellent analogy. I use my tools to make a living, but in
perspective don't really have all that many. Yet I get teased a great
deal by my friends for their costs.
Yet, they hunt ($$$$$), plan deep water fishing trips (seen the price
of a good deep water reel and rod lately?) and invest in "kick ass"
home theatre systems, etc.
One of my friends has never teased me since I pointed out to him I
could buy all my tools in just a couple/three years with the money he
spends on cigarettes and a quart of beer after work. Apparently cut a
bit deep there.
> Woodcraft is an entire chain aimed at the hobby market. =A0They even offe=
r
> classes to teach you to use the stuff they sell. =A0I'll bet many more
> hobbyists buy stuff from Lee Valley, Lie Neilsen, Highland Hardware,
> Tools for Working Wood, Tool Crib, and so on... than pros.
Couldn't agree more, and I think spot on. I went to our monthly
woodturning club meeting last week, and while there was looking at the
Kapex saws. Impressive. Sales are good; they sell one a week,
religiously and have for the last couple of months or so. My amigo
the assistant manager and I were talking about them and I asked him if
they sold them to any full time professionals.
Only one, he said. To a guy that does picture frames. The rest,
hobby guys. He told me that was the way with all the Festool tools,
except the sanders. The shoe is on the other foot there, and the guys
that use their sanders a lot are scooping those guys up. He has a
cabinet shop that uses them for touch up sanding before shipping, and
he said they bought five last time the purchased. He called a friend
of his, and they bought the last three in the store.
He opined that it was a mixed bag of pro and hobby on the Domino, but
as seen here, those that purchased them love them.
He and I noticed the same thing on the Fein multi when it was the "it"
tool and line. 90% of the sales go to hobby guys. The professional
guys that buy them swear by them as sanders, and cutting tools for
flooring, door jambs, and all kinds of other flush cut applications
when remodeling/retrofitting.
Strange how well the marketing works. They have 1/3 the Fein space
they used to have when the Fein was the "it" tool, and no longer carry
the Fein router or vac in the store. Both can be special ordered,
though.
But the can't keep the Festool stuff in stock (except their router,
which they are pushing hard this month with free demos which only
further pushes your point!) and it has about 20' of display in the
store.
I don't know how well this applies to all the tools sold, but I
remember reading in one of the AAW publications that 70% of all lathes
are out of use in the first year, and something like 90% are out of
use by year three.
Judging by our club and the lack of offerings in the local Woodcraft,
I think the wood turning rage has seen its day, at least until the
marketing departments see fit to have a "renaissance" of an old
craft. I would gladly bet that 97% of all lathes sold five years ago
are no longer in use.
Since the Euro tools are all the rage these days, it will be
interesting to see what washes up on shore in the next year or two.
IMHO, they will be really hard pressed to beat out the Domino for
originality and actual real life application.
But hey, I never saw that one coming, either.
Robert
"David G. Nagel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:7I%[email protected]...
> Before everyone gets to upset, please note that many of the hotshot tools
> are donated to the program by the manufacturer/retail sales store. That's
> how he got the BIG belt sander. The carved wood sign was donated also.
Yeah - everybody knows the stuff is donated. That's what makes us all
jealous...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Sep 1, 3:56=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Aug 31, 7:12 am, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > "So what" could be said about any post in any thread - it's my opinio=
n and
> > > I'm sticking to it.
>
> > All right - I like that stance! =A0Honest, pig headed, and... honest.
> > > I don't really give a rat's ass. I am being totally selfish.
>
> > You gotta stop doing this - it makes having a disagreement in principle
> > difficult.
>
> I have to say, I was laughing pretty hard at Vic's response. =A0I wasn't
> in this one, but it was a pretty nice way of saying "screw off".
>
> Then I saw yours, and laughed even harder.
>
> I had some repairs done (badly) by Sears that needed to be redone. =A0I
> went down there ready to tear their lungs out, and all the damn
> manager did was agree they screwed up, then asked if he could get away
> from me so he could get the guys started on fixing the problems.
>
> Some people just take all the fun out of everything.
>
> BTW... keep posting Vic!
>
> Robert
Yo, Robert! (BTW, there is STILL a large salmon swimming around in
Georgian Bay with my name on it. He bumped the bottom of the boat a
few times just to piss me off, did a few 'Flipper-style' tail-walks
while giving me the fin, but all I could catch was cold.)
Now, about Norm.
'Is anyone else getting fed up with Norm?' was the original question.
It's kinda like watching Flatley doing his Riverdance...once. Kinda
impressive, but once you've seen it...you've seen it.
He is not playing to the pros, but he is playing to an audience which
includes guys and gals who 'get the bug' by watching him. Many think
that they are able to do what he does, and in many cases they are. I
think that is a wonderful thing.
But, none of that takes away the fact that Norm is a corporation with
a great marketing machine.
I don't believe that it goes unnoticed by the Milwaukee people that
Norm isn't using any of their tools; they'd like to knock that DeWalt
drill out of Norm's hand, I'm sure. I'm sure Makita would like some
product placement as well. (IF, in fact, he does or doesn't use those
brands, I haven't watched Norm in years.) How much would would Harbour
Freight pay to see some of their schlock on Norm's bench? What an
endorsement.
Personally, I get my important input from Woodweb and here.
On Aug 31, 7:12 am, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "So what" could be said about any post in any thread - it's my opinion and
> > I'm sticking to it.
>
> All right - I like that stance! Honest, pig headed, and... honest.
> > I don't really give a rat's ass. I am being totally selfish.
>
> You gotta stop doing this - it makes having a disagreement in principle
> difficult.
I have to say, I was laughing pretty hard at Vic's response. I wasn't
in this one, but it was a pretty nice way of saying "screw off".
Then I saw yours, and laughed even harder.
I had some repairs done (badly) by Sears that needed to be redone. I
went down there ready to tear their lungs out, and all the damn
manager did was agree they screwed up, then asked if he could get away
from me so he could get the guys started on fixing the problems.
Some people just take all the fun out of everything.
BTW... keep posting Vic!
Robert
On Sep 1, 3:56 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Aug 31, 7:12 am, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> > All right - I like that stance! Honest, pig headed, and... honest.
> > > I don't really give a rat's ass. I am being totally selfish.
>
> > You gotta stop doing this - it makes having a disagreement in principle
> > difficult.
>
> I have to say, I was laughing pretty hard at Vic's response. I wasn't
> in this one, but it was a pretty nice way of saying "screw off".
>
> Then I saw yours, and laughed even harder.
Well, what can I say - that's what we're here for... the comedy relief.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
[email protected] wrote:
> On Aug 30, 12:22 am, Just Wondering <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Nevertheless, it's still frustrating when, tuning in to see how to make
>> something, Norm uses tools most people will never have. For example,
>> using a mortising tool to cut a mortise instead of showing how to make a
>> mortise with a drill press, hammer and sharp chisel. And I cringe at
>> all the times he uses a brad nailer instead of clamps to hold pieces
>> together while the glue dries.
>
> But he HAS shown doing it that way in the past. The thing is that if
> you watch many episodes of the show you will see the same task
> accomplished with different methods. He can't show you every way to
> do something on every project in 20 minutes. I don't think he does as
> many things without those dedicated tools as much as he used to, and
> maybe that's partially to do with sponsorship. I think it also has to
> do with him having done this for a long time and wanting to do things
> that still interest him and doing things "the hard way" when you've
> got the right tool for the job sitting right there is not his style.
> He has done things with hand tools a lot more than he used to. It's
> pretty freaky seeing him pull out a japanese style hand saw to make
> the odd cut.
>
The OP who started this thread complained about Norm's use of his
dedicated molding machine. It should be noted that half the time he uses
his router/router table to create his moldings. A lot of Norm's
shortcuts are for programming purposes, such as the notorious BRAD
nailer instead of clamps. The brads permit him to continue with the
project instead of waiting hours for the glue up to cure.
However if offered I would not refuse a free molding machine. HI HI..
Dave N
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:14:40 -0400, Phisherman <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:47:14 -0700, "Vic Baron" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>Haven't watched the NYWS in a while and had some free time and tuned in -
>>now I'm irritated again. :)
>>
>>I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just take
>>this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take this
>>to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated molding
>>machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.
>>
>>IMHO, if the show is aimed at home woodworkers in general, then stay with
>>basic tools and teach how to make things with them.
>>
>>rant mode off -
>>
>>Now I feel better, :)
>>
>>
>>Vic
>
>Keep in mind that Morash supplies the funding of all those cool
>dedicated machines.
Actually, having worked for an underwriter, I believe it is they who
supply all those nice machines. And since they are restricted in the
manner in which they can hawk same, the agreement is usually that they
will be used on the show for appropriate operations.
I don't mind that. If it were not for the underwriters, there would
be no show. There is often an alternative operation if you don't
happen to have the dedicated whatever, and more often and not I don't
Frank
>No wonder it takes me 2 weeks to build the same
>project Norm makes in two days. At least my project is not filled
>with brad nails.
Mark & Juanita wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>> "Mark & Juanita" wrote
>>> Try <www.mklange.cnc.net>. Sorry, the previous one didn't come
>>> through
>>> as a link
>>
>> Nice tractors.
>>
>> Had an uncle with a 1938 Deere.
>>
>> Magneto, no cranking motor (ie: stripped bare).
>>
>
> Dad has a 39 JD A, same amenities. You haven't lived until you've tried
> hand-cranking a cantankerous engine when it's below 0, the oil is thick as
> grease and you've got to the the thing fired up because you need to
> loader.
Wow, did I write that? Let me try again -- that last sentence should read:
You haven't lived until you've tried hand-cranking a cantankerous engine
when it's below 0, the oil is thick as grease, and you've got to get the
thing fired up because you need to use loader.
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Mark & Juanita" wrote:
>
>> Dad has a 39 JD A, same amenities. You haven't lived until you've
>> tried
>> hand-cranking a cantankerous engine when it's below 0, the oil is
>> thick as
>> grease and you've got to the the thing fired up because you need to
>> loader.
>
> Stopped to see this uncle back in 1983 time frame on a sales trip thru
> Indiana.
>
> Hadn't seen this uncle since 1955 and at the time he was approaching
> 80+.
>
> Had gotten rid of almost everything on the farm except for an old
> weather beaten shed where he still kept the tractor.
>
> After a visit, he walked me out to the shed and the tractor which sat
> there with a rusty Campbell's soup can upside down covering the
> exhaust pipe.
>
> The can kept the birds out of the exhaust pipe.
>
> "There are only two things I'll always keep, my wife and this
> tractor", he told me.
>
> My uncle removed the can, walked around to the left side of the
> tractor where the flywheel was located and reached into the tractor,
> flipped a couple of valves/switches and assumed an almost straddle
> position in front of that flywheel, cradling it in his hands.
>
> Cocked his head to get his ear closer to the tractor and began to
> gently rock that flywheel back and forth.
>
> Suddenly, a quick drive of a leg, a turn of the shoulders, and the old
> Deere came to life.
>
> It was almost as if a sex act between man and machine had been
> committed right in front of my eyes.
>
> I had just witnessed what a 50 year relationship between a man and his
> tools was all about.
>
That post was absolute art.
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:47:14 -0700, Vic Baron wrote:
>>
>>> I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just take
>>> this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take
>>> this
>>> to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated molding
>>> machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.
>>
>> That's why I watch the Woodwright's Shop :-).
>
> That is like knowing and waiting for an accident to happen. ;~)
It's like Nascar for Woodworkers!
-MJ
"Vic Baron" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I think that he can scare away as many new woodworkers as he attracts - at
> least with this type of show.
>
So what? Do you really believe those beloved "old ways" would be more
enticing to those scores of new woodworkers that you suspect he scares away?
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Lee Michaels" wrote:
> I like it when he says that he needed to smooth something. So he
> runs it through that enormous belt sander he has. Ya know, the one
> big enough to run a table top through it.
>
> I mean, it would be an incredible luxury to just have the space that
> monster occupies, let alone the enormous sander.
Very straight forward, use the services of a local drum sander.
The guy I ue has a 48" wide, 75HP, 3-grit machine complete with a 20HP
bag house dust collector.
You get a lot of sanding done for $25.(About 20 minutes)
I blank out all my tops with 7/8" stock then sand to 3.4" after
glue-up.
Keeps life simple that way.
Lew
On Aug 29, 12:22=A0pm, "Lee Michaels" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I remember years ago when my wife saw him paint over a beautiful wood
> project with green milk paint. =A0She screamed, "Why is he doing that"?
>
> I tried to explain Norm Abrams to her. She didn't get it.
Truthfully, neither do I. :-)
At the first Woodcraft Parking Lot Show I went to in Madison, they had
Scott Phillips from American woodshop doing some demos. That was fun.
Especially the part where he talks about Norm's Belt Sander. "It's a
great machine except it takes up more space than a car and when he
turns it on he browns out Boston!"
But I still watch the show. He's like family. He exasperates me at
times but his heart's in the right place.
Not to mention the wallet to pay the utility bill for all that high
horsepower gear...
Lee Michaels wrote:
> "Vic Baron" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Haven't watched the NYWS in a while and had some free time and tuned in -
>> now I'm irritated again. :)
>>
>> I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just take
>> this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take
>> this to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated molding
>> machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.
>>
>> IMHO, if the show is aimed at home woodworkers in general, then stay with
>> basic tools and teach how to make things with them.
>>
>> rant mode off -
>>
>> Now I feel better, :)
>>
>
> I like it when he says that he needed to smooth something. So he runs it
> through that enormous belt sander he has. Ya know, the one big enough to
> run a table top through it.
>
> I mean, it would be an incredible luxury to just have the space that monster
> occupies, let alone the enormous sander.
>
>
>
"Vic Baron" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "So what" could be said about any post in any thread - it's my opinion and
> I'm sticking to it.
>
All right - I like that stance! Honest, pig headed, and... honest.
> And who the heck said anything about beloved old ways?
I sorta got that from the comments I had snipped when I replied. After
all - what else would be implied when saying that you think he can scare
away new woodworkers with his type of show?
> I don't really give a rat's ass. I am being totally selfish.
You gotta stop doing this - it makes having a disagreement in principle
difficult.
> I do not use a dedicated molding machine and I want to see how he would do
> it without. I am not interested in seeing him use tools that are beyond
> the average *home* woodworker. If I wanted to see how a major woodworking
> company might tackle a project, I'd look elsewhere.
Ahhhh, for the good old days. I remember when Norm first got his dedicated
mortising machine and before that he used to show how to do mortises with
common tools. Frankly though, I would bet that for most of his viewers,
they really don't care about something like a molding machine or how to make
molding without it. They're just going to run down to the local supplier
and buy molding. I suspect they really are more interested in things like -
well, getting ideas for molding designs. Things like the way to build up
moldings to create a complex and elaborate end product.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Lee Gordon wrote:
> A lot of the guys on this NG are at a level of sophistication well above
> that of a typical NYW viewer. I'd guess I am fairly representative of
> someone who watches Norm just for fun and to learn more than he knew about
> woodworking from any other source. Here's my version of a shop inventory:
>
> Table Saw (Hybrid) $600.00
> Used Radial Arm Saw $75.00
> Used 6 Jointer $250.00 (Thanks, Barry)
> Used Thicknesser $100.00
> Dust Collection a/k/a Fein shop vac $225.00
> Mortising attachment for drill press $65.00
> Compressor - Free*
> Used Nail guns $135.00 (mostly from pawn shop)
> Used Disc sander - Free
> Drill Press $120.00
> Router table (SM) $30.00 (cheapo Craftsman benchtop model)
> Outfeed/Work Table - Free + $50 for plastic laminate
> Bench $50.00 on Craigslist
> DT Jig $70.00
> Biscuit Joiner $175.
> Routers $280.00
> Clamps $250.00
> Cordless Tools $100.00*
> Hand Edge Tools $100.00
> Sharpening $50.00*
> Measuring & Layout $50.00
> Used Bandsaw - Free
>
> *Full disclosure: Besides receiving my bench grinder and probably at least
> half my clamps as Xmas gifts, I also have tested some tools, written about
> them, and in a few cases, gotten to keep them, netting me $1000-1500 worth
> of cordless tools and other goodies. And because I have a few connections
> in the media, I have also gotten a few decent used tools either free or
> ultra cheap when a friend in the business got a free upgrade of his tool
> stash and passed the old one on to me.
> Nevertheless, my workshop, inspired by Norm, is outfitted with less than
> $5000 worth of tools, of which I have invested maybe $2700-3000 in actual
> cash. I am also smart enough to understand that when Norm reaches for a
> machine that I will never have the space or budget to own, it's not the only
> way to accomplish the same task and if Norm hasn't already shown me a more
> practical alternative method in some previous episode, it won't be long
> before he does.
> I'm pretty sure Norm has already acknowledged that most of us can't have a
> big ole Timesaver in our own shops (even the one in the NYW is "on loan")
> and has therefore suggested that if the need for one arises, we should
> inquire about renting time on one from a local cabinet shop.
>
> Lee
Question Lee> How did you get into my shop and when are you going to
return it... HI HI...
Actually my shop tool list does look just like this one and cost about
as much. Of course the other half thinks it cost more. Actually it does
but only after she gets back from the store. HI HI...
Dave N
Yes, getting annoyed but not so much as with your bug-a-boo rather, PBS fund
raising campaigns: "So we can continue bringing you New Yankee ..." . I
think I have seen every episode of "NEW" Yankee... atleast 5 times.
Stu
"Phisherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:47:14 -0700, "Vic Baron" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>Haven't watched the NYWS in a while and had some free time and tuned in -
>>now I'm irritated again. :)
>>
>>I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just take
>>this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take
>>this
>>to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated molding
>>machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.
>>
>>IMHO, if the show is aimed at home woodworkers in general, then stay with
>>basic tools and teach how to make things with them.
>>
>>rant mode off -
>>
>>Now I feel better, :)
>>
>>
>>Vic
>
> Keep in mind that Morash supplies the funding of all those cool
> dedicated machines. No wonder it takes me 2 weeks to build the same
> project Norm makes in two days. At least my project is not filled
> with brad nails.
Hi Stuart, you can email me direct. Email is good
Micky
"Stuart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Micky <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Hi Stuart, I play bass
>
> Hmmm, that's interesting.
>
> You live in the area?
>
> Our regular bass player decided to go into the ministry and is now a
> curate in Bedworth. They also have a new baby and he is unable to play
> for us anymore. There's a close friend of mine who is a first rate
> guitarist and bassist who we sometimes rope in but he's a busy man and
> sometime's we are stuck.
>
> Your email address has been noted :-)
>
> We use traditional tunes - jigs, reels, hornpipes - mostly english Morris
> and dance but there are some scottish and irish tunes thrown in for good
> measure.
>
> Graham, who leads our band, when he is not playing melodeon or six-string
> guitar, has a very nice Armstrong acoustic bass.
>
> Yes I know we're moving O/T but guitars are made of wood and I've often
> fancied having a go at making one. However, a bowed Psaltry might be my
> starter into the world of musical instrument making because there aren't
> any
> fancy curves to produce.
>
> Stuart.
>
> --
> Stuart Winsor
>
> For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
> See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 12:03:53 -0400, "Lee Michaels"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Frank Boettcher" wrote
>>
>> Actually, having worked for an underwriter, I believe it is they who
>> supply all those nice machines. And since they are restricted in the
>> manner in which they can hawk same, the agreement is usually that they
>> will be used on the show for appropriate operations.
>>
>
>Yabbut, blotting out the trademark will only fool the absolute novice. Most
>people can recognize the brand of tool. Besides, isn't there a commercial
>for the primary brand of tool on there anyway?
Of course it is recognizable, there is nothing wrong with that. Trade
marks are not even covered. But the product can only be shown in
actual use in the context of the particular show and Norm cannot
mention the brand name. I believe that is honest at least compared to
commercials where all kinds of outlandish claims can be made with no
verification.
Yes the "underwriter" rules give you so many seconds to identify the
company, their primary business, and you can show as many shots of
products in use during that time.
>
>Sooo....., there may be some restrictions. But the the company (Delta) gets
>pretty good exposure anyway, even with the restrictions.
Yes, and they pay dearly for that exposure just as they would on a non
PBS ad. The difference is that they are not paying for ads by the
minutes they are paying a contract price to underwrite the show for
the season.
>
>Again, I am not complaining or implying anything improper. I just thinks it
>smacks of the elitist, arrogant PBS culture. It just seems a little
>hypocritical to me.
>
Mixed feelings about PBS in general. But several of my favorite local
shows are there. Local being shows like Mississippi Outdoors and
others that I really enjoy. I don't like the begathons, strongly
believe the underwriting funding and limited public funding is best.
Underwriting brings quality, if no one watches, no underwriting.
Frank
>
>
>
"B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mark & Juanita wrote:
>> I think a lot of people who see Norm's shop see it as
>> unattainable as an all-at-once acquisition. I started with a few
>> tools and
>> have added to them over the past 14 years. A few tools at a time or
>> one at
>> a time, and pretty soon you aren't that far off of what the NYW has.
>
> I just checked my shop inventory, and here's what I've acquired over ~
> _14_ years (SM = shop made):
>
> Cabinet Saw $1,800.00
> 8 Jointer $1,100.00
> Thicknesser $350.00
> Dust Collection $550.00
> Drum Sander $1,100.00
> Mortiser $950.00
> HVLP $700.00
> Compressor $300.00
> Nail guns $300.00
> Disc sander $190.00
> Drill Press $200.00
> Router table (SM) $100.00
> Outfeed (SM) $100.00
> Bench $500.00
> DT Jig $450.00
> Routers $1,200.00
> Clamps $1,500.00
> Cordless Tools $700.00
> Hand Edge Tools $1,500.00
> Sharpening $1,000.00
> Measuring & Layout $300.00
> 14" Bandsaw $800.00
>
> Total = $15,690.00
>
>
> If you look at it:
>
> 1.) The list looks a lot like Norm's shop.
> 2.) There are items that are NOT necessities on the list, like the
> HVLP, the big mortiser, the drum sander, the DT jig, $1500 in edge
> tools, or the Tormek included in the sharpening total.
> 3.) I bought nearly everything new, but some were refurbs. More
> diligently looking for used could have saved big bucks.
> 4.) Most of my heavy iron is General, Delta, and Powermatic. Grizzly
> might have saved some money if cost was priority one.
> 5.) I didn't include things you'd need without a wood shop, like
> sockets. If you own a home and car, you need that stuff.
>
> 14 years = 168 months = less than $100/mo ($25/week)
>
> I've built all the good furniture in my home, probably added $15-20k
> in value to my home with hardwood built-ins and trim, as well as
> earned $15-20k (net, not gross) with these tools.
>
>
> Meanwhile, my neighbor just bought a $28,000 camping trailer that
> he'll use two weeks a year. He'll also pay $500-600 / yr. in property
> tax while it's parked in the yard.
That roughly reflects my inventory and investment. I built the shop for
a little over 16K.
But I also have a 30K "camper" that I use about 3 - 4 months a year.
:-)
Max
"Stuart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <Iubvk.328518$Q%[email protected]>,
> Micky <[email protected]> wrote:
>> PS. Try "Flannelly's" in Coventry on 13th Sept for some Irish
>> Country/Trad. I'm playing there!
>
> Bother!
>
> I will be on holiday in Ireland from 10th to 17th!
>
> First time across to Ireland. We're taking the ferry across to Dublin from
> Holyhead, staying three nights on the outskirts of Dublin (Dun Laoghaire)
> then move south for four nights in a farmhouse, somewhere out in the
> sticks
> between New Ross and Waterford.
>
> Thanks for letting me know anyway.
>
> What's your instrument, I'm a 12 string guitar player - Simon and Patrick.
>
> --
> Stuart Winsor
>
> For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
> See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
Hi Stuart, I play bass and do vocals. We (me & SWMBO) are of to Ireland on
the 20th to the 30th, heading down to Kenmare in the Kerry area, 7th time in
6 years.
Does this say something about the place? Enjoy your holiday, I'm sure you're
going to love the place
Micky
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> It's like Nascar for Woodworkers!
>>
>> So it's like wannabes buying Pontiacs and driving like idiots on the
>> highway? Not sure I see the connection. ;~)
>
>
> No it is like the 95% of NASCAR fans that watch a NASCAR race hoping for
> their favorite driver to win and just itching to see the inevitable
> crashes.
> You don't know exactly when but you do know you are going to see a NASCAR
> crash/Woodwright guy cut his finger.
I see...
The camera definitely distorts reality. Roy's hands look even more beat up
in person than they do on the air... On air it is only the most obvious
wounds and scars that are evident but in person the old scars are layered.
In person his suspenders and clothes are faded and his hat is frayed but on
the monitor the suspenders look bright red and his hat looks fine. The
camera does not distort his wit though!
That said, maybe Norm doesn't really use all that many brads and the
Timesaver isn't nearly as big as it appears on the monitor due to focal
plane flattening by the camera?
John
<[email protected]> wrote
> Allow me to expand on that a bit. I think there is a curve of
> appreciation on watching Norm's show.
Well said ... what I meant, but didn't get across.
> Just don't get me going about his finishing...
LOL I can sympathize with him on that ... we all have our Achilles heel! :)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/18/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
[email protected] wrote:
> Frank:
>
>> Sooo....., there may be some restrictions. But the the company (Delta) gets
>> pretty good exposure anyway, even with the restrictions.
>>
>> Again, I am not complaining or implying anything improper. I just thinks it
>> smacks of the elitist, arrogant PBS culture. It just seems a little
>> hypocritical to me.
>
> Hmm, well to let you know that PBS does NOT own NYW, TOH or Ask This
> Old House.
> Those shows are all produced by Time Warner. They are shown on PBS as
> well
> as DIY networks and local channels. Are they elitist?
>
> Many seem to rail against Norm when he uses a brad nailer, that
> wonderful
> Timesaver belt sander, the Delta tablesaw, etc. But, few people have
> them
> but still watch. I'd bet more people took up or tried woodworking
> because of
> Norm. I haven't heard from anyone who gave it UP because of his tools!
>
Nevertheless, it's still frustrating when, tuning in to see how to make
something, Norm uses tools most people will never have. For example,
using a mortising tool to cut a mortise instead of showing how to make a
mortise with a drill press, hammer and sharp chisel. And I cringe at
all the times he uses a brad nailer instead of clamps to hold pieces
together while the glue dries.
"Mark Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> It's like Nascar for Woodworkers!
>
> -MJ
I get it . Norm uses tools just like we all have. NASCAR drivers drive
stock cars just like we buy at the local Chevy dealer.
Lee Michaels wrote:
> "Frank Boettcher" wrote
>> Actually, having worked for an underwriter, I believe it is they who
>> supply all those nice machines. And since they are restricted in the
>> manner in which they can hawk same, the agreement is usually that they
>> will be used on the show for appropriate operations.
>>
>
> Yabbut, blotting out the trademark will only fool the absolute novice. Most
> people can recognize the brand of tool. Besides, isn't there a commercial
> for the primary brand of tool on there anyway?
>
> Sooo....., there may be some restrictions. But the the company (Delta) gets
> pretty good exposure anyway, even with the restrictions.
>
> Again, I am not complaining or implying anything improper. I just thinks it
> smacks of the elitist, arrogant PBS culture. It just seems a little
> hypocritical to me.
>
>
>
>
>
Not to mention painting out the green on the power hand tools.
Dave N
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:47:14 -0700, Vic Baron wrote:
> I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just take
> this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take this
> to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated molding
> machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.
That's why I watch the Woodwright's Shop :-).
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 22:32:16 -0500, Leon wrote:
>
> "Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> That's why I watch the Woodwright's Shop :-).
>
> That is like knowing and waiting for an accident to happen. ;~)
Just because he baptizes all his projects in blood? I tend to do that too
- especially since the "aspirin a day" routine started :-).
"John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> That said, maybe Norm doesn't really use all that many brads and the
> Timesaver isn't nearly as big as it appears on the monitor due to focal
> plane flattening by the camera?
>
> John
They say that the camera adds 10 pounds, I bet the "Timesaver" looks 10 lbs
bigger too. :~)
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> Meanwhile, my neighbor just bought a $28,000 camping trailer that he'll
>> use two weeks a year. He'll also pay $500-600 / yr. in property tax while
>> it's parked in the yard.
>
> But let me see you park your tablesaw next to a lake in New Hampshire
I can land my other toy @ Laconia. <G>
Vic Baron wrote:
>
>
> I am not
> interested in seeing him use tools that are beyond the average *home*
> woodworker.
There are molding machines that cost less than a cabinet saw.
<http://www.southern-tool.com/store/WilliamHusseyOriginalMolder.html>
<http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyId=2058>
<http://grizzly.com/products/G1037Z>
There's always Bruce Johnson...
"charlieb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Late to a thread, as always.
>
> Norm has grown up - as a furniture maker - over the last
> dozen years or so. And some of us who started with him
> while he was the carpenter on This Old House have grown
> with him, both in terms of tools and machines, as well as
> furniture making skills. And the competition for viewers
> has increased significantly due to a) cable/satellite TV
> and b) the internet (YouTube/Streaming Video, etc.)
>
> NYW's strategy seems to be Keep The Viewers You Have
> - they're a lucrative demographic - having both time AND
> money (well at least some of us Boomer still have some
> money - not a lot - but enough to buy a new toy/tool once
> every year or so). And THAT audience wants to see
> projects which are at or beyond their current capabilities
> - with current tools and skills.
>
> And let's face it - after you've made a bathroom or
> kitchen cabinet or two - with raised panel doors, Face
> Frames & Ply get Not So Challenging. And then you've
> got a great REASON (read excuse) for getting another
> tool.
>
> If you want a show that uses tools that are hard to
> come by - and often expensive - check out Roy Underhill.
> So of those antique molding planes etc. are getting
> downright pricey.
>
> Norm's Got Toys has become more of an advertisement
> for the woodworking tools manufacturers - but he still
> makes some interesting stuff that CAN be done without
> the $15000 - 36" wide, three drums, drum sander. Come
> on - he's only got half an hour, maybe an hour, to make
> and finish a Chippendale piece . . .
>
> charlie b
I too am a BIG fan of Norm's NYWS. I credit him for getting me
interested/started in woodworking. I try to record all of his NYWS shows if
I am not home when he comes on. I could care less if there are several
reruns. I could watch his shows again. I hope he stays on for another 20
years or more. I also enjoy Scott Phillips too. The new Woodsmith show is
also interesting A lot of the old time WWrks' criticize Norm, but I think
he is a good mentor for us novices and intermiate woodworkers.
>
> ps - I'm working with a complete novice at furniture making,
> doing an 8' tall linen cabinet - with raised panels and raised
> panel doors - albeit out of poplar. Today she'll be cutting
> a bunch of loose tenon mortise and tenon joints - for the
> first time - with the Festool DOMINO. I'm betting she'll do
> it quite successfully - and quickly and easily (ok so I set up
> the fence and will do one end grain mortise and one side
> grain mortise to show her how it's done. Then she'll be
> on her own. Will post pics after the piece is done and
> installed. The door hinges will probably be the hardest
> to get right.
A lot of the guys on this NG are at a level of sophistication well above
that of a typical NYW viewer. I'd guess I am fairly representative of
someone who watches Norm just for fun and to learn more than he knew about
woodworking from any other source. Here's my version of a shop inventory:
Table Saw (Hybrid) $600.00
Used Radial Arm Saw $75.00
Used 6 Jointer $250.00 (Thanks, Barry)
Used Thicknesser $100.00
Dust Collection a/k/a Fein shop vac $225.00
Mortising attachment for drill press $65.00
Compressor - Free*
Used Nail guns $135.00 (mostly from pawn shop)
Used Disc sander - Free
Drill Press $120.00
Router table (SM) $30.00 (cheapo Craftsman benchtop model)
Outfeed/Work Table - Free + $50 for plastic laminate
Bench $50.00 on Craigslist
DT Jig $70.00
Biscuit Joiner $175.
Routers $280.00
Clamps $250.00
Cordless Tools $100.00*
Hand Edge Tools $100.00
Sharpening $50.00*
Measuring & Layout $50.00
Used Bandsaw - Free
*Full disclosure: Besides receiving my bench grinder and probably at least
half my clamps as Xmas gifts, I also have tested some tools, written about
them, and in a few cases, gotten to keep them, netting me $1000-1500 worth
of cordless tools and other goodies. And because I have a few connections
in the media, I have also gotten a few decent used tools either free or
ultra cheap when a friend in the business got a free upgrade of his tool
stash and passed the old one on to me.
Nevertheless, my workshop, inspired by Norm, is outfitted with less than
$5000 worth of tools, of which I have invested maybe $2700-3000 in actual
cash. I am also smart enough to understand that when Norm reaches for a
machine that I will never have the space or budget to own, it's not the only
way to accomplish the same task and if Norm hasn't already shown me a more
practical alternative method in some previous episode, it won't be long
before he does.
I'm pretty sure Norm has already acknowledged that most of us can't have a
big ole Timesaver in our own shops (even the one in the NYW is "on loan")
and has therefore suggested that if the need for one arises, we should
inquire about renting time on one from a local cabinet shop.
Lee
--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"
_________________________________
Lee Gordon
http://www.leegordonproductions.com
Vic Baron wrote:
>
> I am not
> interested in seeing him use tools that are beyond the average *home*
> woodworker.
I just thought of something else.
"The Average Home Woodworker"...
If you take away the TimeSaver, Norm might be a lot more average than we
think.
When I think of amateur woodworkers here, on the various web forums,
that I've met at seminars or classes, etc... The folks who have been at
it for a few years and are very serious about the craft have home shops
just like Norm.
It's not all that much of a stretch, either. Norm's shop brand new,
minus the Timesaver, would cost less than a decent boat, a Harley, a
killer home theatre system, a grand piano, a few years of season tickets
to major sports, a few seasons of golf on nice courses, a hobby car
(show or race), a horse, etc... Yet we all know people with custom
Harleys, boats, show cars, grand pianos, horses...
Woodcraft is an entire chain aimed at the hobby market. They even offer
classes to teach you to use the stuff they sell. I'll bet many more
hobbyists buy stuff from Lee Valley, Lie Neilsen, Highland Hardware,
Tools for Working Wood, Tool Crib, and so on... than pros.
I remember when my own shop was a Jet contrator's saw, a jig saw, one
router, and 4 "C" clamps. Back then, I didn't see Norm's shop as
something I'd ever have. But the bug bit... <G>
"B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Meanwhile, my neighbor just bought a $28,000 camping trailer that he'll
> use two weeks a year. He'll also pay $500-600 / yr. in property tax while
> it's parked in the yard.
But let me see you park your tablesaw next to a lake in New Hampshire
I've invested about $8000 in tools. I don't have a payback in dollars, but
I have plenty of payback in pleasure and satisfaction of making things,
giving gifts of things I've made. Present project is a prototype for end
tables I want to make in cherry.
Fellow I worked with bought a $110,000 motor home. He has to work a lot of
OT to afford it and when he takes it someplace he loses about 10 hours that
weekend. I think he used it for one week and two weekends the last year he
was here. Oh, it got 8 mpg also, or 50¢ a mile at today's prices. I'd
rather buy wood instead of $30 an hour cruising the highway.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Vic Baron" wrote
>
>> now I'm irritated again. :)
>
> Simple solution for that ... hit the "next" button. ;)
The full line was:
Haven't watched the NYWS in a while and had some free time and tuned in -
now I'm irritated again.
I HAVE been using the next button, just not the last time!
>
> For me, as one whose interest in furniture design has developed and
> advanced beyond simply copying a plan, it is the _project_ itself,
> followed by Norm's take on the joinery/method of construction of each,
> that has become the focus of my interest in his shows ... not the tools he
> chooses for each step.
Actually, I agree, I would just like to see him do it the "old" way. As far
as the broadcast is concerned it takes no more time than using the dedicated
whatever.
I would venture a guess that IF you own a dedicated molder then you pretty
well know how to use it. If Ihad to make that multiple curved foot he made
on the show I watched, I would have to use either the bandsaw or multiple
passes with a router. I would have preferred his technique on doing that
rather than running a chunk through a molder and voila! a curved foot.
I think that he can scare away as many new woodworkers as he attracts - at
least with this type of show.
Just MHO
>
> IOW, the more complicated the projects that I've designed and built
> _without benefit of plans_, the more I have begun to appreciate Norm's
> take on the methodology of constructing the project, whether it reaffirms,
> or differs from, what I have already figured out on my own as the best way
> to do something.
>
> Then there was Bruce Johnson ... proving there are some you just can't
> learn a damn thing from ... unless it's how not to. :)
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 8/18/08
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
>
>
>
<[email protected]> wrote
> Just don't get me going about his finishing...
That used to drive me nuts. He is better now though.
I remember years ago when my wife saw him paint over a beautiful wood
project with green milk paint. She screamed, "Why is he doing that"?
I tried to explain Norm Abrams to her. She didn't get it.