More of a tooling question as I can figure out how to drill, etc... <G>
If a customer of mine decided to run his tooling at 3,000 RPM for a 1" hole
in wood and the thing smokes like a bandit... Is he possibly ruining the
"drill bit" by overheating it? I've got a chart with very conservative
drill speed / feed numbers but I've also got this one customer who doesn't
care if he burns a bit on his production drilling process and I don't know
whether to warn him about ruining his tooling or not. Probably a spade-type
bit. 27/64" diameter in green wood... And yes, it is smoke, not steam. :)
Here is the speed / feed chart if anyone finds it useful:
http://www.multi-drill.com/drill-speed-chart.htm
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
V8013-R
As another poster said, it is critical to find out what kind of material
his bits are made from. HSS isn't going to be affected by just "smoke".
The smoke actally will cool the bit to some degree. His wood will
ignite at about 700° or so, so if he doesn't have a fire, HSS shouldn't
be a problem.
In my limited experience with spade bits, they seeem to take more
down pressure to get them to cut. This could be causing more heat,
especially as they start to dull. Can you even buy them in HSS?
As the other poster said, try to get a look at the temper colors on the
bits as they emerge from the hole some time.
See: www.anvilfire.com/FAQs/temper_colors.htm
for a chart. HSS wouldn't be temper-affected at any of these colors,
but plain carbon steel could start to loose hardness from "orange" upwards.
Pete Stanaitis
--------------------
Joe AutoDrill wrote:
> More of a tooling question as I can figure out how to drill, etc... <G>
>
> If a customer of mine decided to run his tooling at 3,000 RPM for a 1" hole
> in wood and the thing smokes like a bandit... Is he possibly ruining the
> "drill bit" by overheating it? I've got a chart with very conservative
> drill speed / feed numbers but I've also got this one customer who doesn't
> care if he burns a bit on his production drilling process and I don't know
> whether to warn him about ruining his tooling or not. Probably a spade-type
> bit. 27/64" diameter in green wood... And yes, it is smoke, not steam. :)
>
> Here is the speed / feed chart if anyone finds it useful:
> http://www.multi-drill.com/drill-speed-chart.htm
>
> Regards,
> Joe Agro, Jr.
> (800) 871-5022
> 01.908.542.0244
> Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
> Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
>
> V8013-R
>
>
>
On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:00:15 GMT, "Joe AutoDrill" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>More of a tooling question as I can figure out how to drill, etc... <G>
>
>If a customer of mine decided to run his tooling at 3,000 RPM for a 1" hole
>in wood and the thing smokes like a bandit... Is he possibly ruining the
>"drill bit" by overheating it? I've got a chart with very conservative
>drill speed / feed numbers but I've also got this one customer who doesn't
>care if he burns a bit on his production drilling process and I don't know
>whether to warn him about ruining his tooling or not. Probably a spade-type
>bit. 27/64" diameter in green wood... And yes, it is smoke, not steam. :)
>
>Here is the speed / feed chart if anyone finds it useful:
>http://www.multi-drill.com/drill-speed-chart.htm
>
>Regards,
>Joe Agro, Jr.
>(800) 871-5022
>01.908.542.0244
>Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
>Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
>
>V8013-R
>
>
800 to 1,000 rpm is closer to the proper speed. At 3000 rpm you can
easily burn a 1" bit.
>>> My question is WHY drill wood at 3,000 rpm and is the wood still intact?
>>
>>Cycle time in a production drilling environment is critical... Faster is
>>... er... faster if it can be done at all.
>
> Unless it causes delays for changing out bits too often..
True... Thus the original question I suppose. If you spend the money, a
bit can probably be purchased with very high RPM capabilities. As someone
else said, wood router tables run into the 10,000+ RPM range with the same
diameter... Carbide bits would change the whole scenario... But with this
guy's volume, I'm not sure that is an option for him.
--
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
V8013-R
"Joe AutoDrill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:YKJjj.13404$KU.4554@trnddc01...
>> Yes, it is possible to have ruined a bit by overheating. The bit can
>> loose its temper and not
>> stay sharp very long after or after retargeting.
>
> Thanks. I know this is not just possible, but guaranteed at higher speeds
> in metals... I didn't know how likely it was in wood... Much
> appreciated.
The smoke is probably coming from the burning wood also. Spade bits are not
so bad although I seldom use them but twist bits, brad point bits, and
especially Forstner bits will over heat and also burn the wood if running
too many RPM's.
>
>
> Regards,
> Joe Agro, Jr.
> (800) 871-5022
> 01.908.542.0244
> Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
> Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
>
> V8013-R
>
>
>
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:45:19 -0600, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>> True... Thus the original question I suppose. If you spend the money, a
>> bit can probably be purchased with very high RPM capabilities. As someone
>> else said, wood router tables run into the 10,000+ RPM range with the same
>> diameter... Carbide bits would change the whole scenario... But with this
>> guy's volume, I'm not sure that is an option for him.
>
>A major difference between the router and the drill is the chip removal
>and surface area in contact as well as the speed. That's where the chip
>ejection is such an issue in aiding the speed and heat rejection as well...
I would guess that hole depth and whether it's a blind or through hole would
make a big difference in heat and chip ejection..
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
On Jan 17, 9:00=A0am, "Joe AutoDrill" <[email protected]> wrote:
> More of a tooling question as I can figure out how to drill, etc... <G>
>
> If a customer of mine decided to run his tooling at 3,000 RPM for a 1" hol=
e
> in wood and the thing smokes like a bandit... =A0Is he possibly ruining th=
e
> "drill bit" by overheating it? =A0I've got a chart with very conservative
> drill speed / feed numbers but I've also got this one customer who doesn't=
> care if he burns a bit on his production drilling process and I don't know=
> whether to warn him about ruining his tooling or not. =A0Probably a spade-=
type
> bit. =A027/64" diameter in green wood... =A0And yes, it is smoke, not stea=
m. =A0:)
>
> Here is the speed / feed chart if anyone finds it useful:http://www.multi-=
drill.com/drill-speed-chart.htm
>
> Regards,
> Joe Agro, Jr.
> (800) 871-5022
> 01.908.542.0244
> Automatic / Pneumatic Drills:http://www.AutoDrill.com
> Multiple Spindle Drills:http://www.Multi-Drill.com
>
> V8013-R
If it's a carbon steel bit, he's likely ruined it. If it's high speed
steel, however, it should be fine. You have to get HSS pretty hot to
draw the temper.
What color are the bits? If you can still see oxidation colors on
them, they haven't gotten too hot.
John Martin
> As another responder noted, HSS will take quite a bit of heat, but at that
> throughput tooling isn't going to have much time to cool off between uses
> so the start temperature is going to gradually be higher as the shift
> progresses which will raise final tip temperatures as well. It may reach a
> tolerable steady state, though; only time/experience will tell. I'd say
> the lower rpm will help significantly on the temperature at some expense
> in throughput, perhaps, depending on the material.
We are designing in a prehistoric pneumatic cooling system... Whenever the
drill that I'm selling "vents" out air from the front or rear port, it does
so onto the tooling... That should help a little bit. But he didn't want
to do anything fancy so I think he is limiting his RPMs to the limitations
of the tool without any coolant for the most part.
--
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
V8013-R
> The smoke is probably coming from the burning wood also. Spade bits are
> not so bad although I seldom use them but twist bits, brad point bits, and
> especially Forstner bits will over heat and also burn the wood if running
> too many RPM's.
No doubt the smoke is coming from burning wood... The question is basically
whether the burining wood / heat build-up could de-tempter the metal drill
tooling.
Personally, I like the smell of burnt wood but I want to sell a machine that
works. This guy is drilling 250 holes at a time with my machines... And he
is doing it everty 3 minutes, 24/7 on a production line... That's a lot of
mistakes if I get it wrong. :)
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
V8013-R
> My question is WHY drill wood at 3,000 rpm and is the wood still intact?
Cycle time in a production drilling environment is critical... Faster is
... er... faster if it can be done at all.
The wood held up just fine. Imagine this is rough sawn lumber pallets...
The finish is not critical at all as long as I don't burst through the
product and cause problems that way.
> You'd think that the wood has to at least discolor.. I drill on the lathe
> and it
> I use too much speed the wood will darken and sometimes the heat will
> crack it..
These are clearance holes for fasteners so finish is not important.
--
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
V8013-R
> Whjy worry? He's going to know from experience soon enough.
Customers call me whether the problem is mine or not. I don't want the
trouble call if I can avoid it.
--
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
V8013-R
> Yes, it is possible to have ruined a bit by overheating. The bit can
> loose its temper and not
> stay sharp very long after or after retargeting.
Thanks. I know this is not just possible, but guaranteed at higher speeds
in metals... I didn't know how likely it was in wood... Much appreciated.
--
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
V8013-R
> Oh, most definitely it can...the moisture in the wet wood will provide a
> small amount of cooling until it's "steamed-off", but after that wood is
> even less effective than steel for carrying away heat from the hole
> although the amount generated is far less owing to the material being so
> much softer. Of course, the high rpm makes up for a lot of that... :)
LOL... It's a tit-for-tat-type calculation then. :)
> What are you using at present for the bits and who's the supplier? Might
> try talking w/ Amana or whoever you deal with regularly for tooling and
> get suggestions for such a specific purpose. Of course, if thruput is
> high enough and the wearout rate isn't too excessive, perhaps it could be
> cost-effective to just use HSS and replace/sharpen on a shift or
> determined basis.
The tooling is up to the customer, thank God! Too many choices / variables.
For the size hole he is drilling 5.5" to 6" deep, I suggested 1000 RPM. He
ran a test on a drill press 3" deep at 3000 RPM and got minimal to no
smoke... Deeper bound up a bit and we included a peck cycle to overcome
that but he still smokes through a little... So I'm guessing that 2000-2500
RPM is going to work well for him. The whole reason I asked the question is
so I could say with some authority that going too fast may not hurt his
piece (burning isn't an issue for him) but will kill tool life.
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
V8013-R
"Lee Michaels" wrote
>
> "Joe AutoDrill" wrote
>
> > The whole reason I asked the question is so I could say with some
> > authority that going too fast may not hurt his piece (burning isn't an
> > issue) but will kill tool life.
> >
> I vaguely remember an old girlfriend saying something similar to me.
LOL ... that's what you get for hanging out with fast women!
... thank goodness! :)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/14/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Jan 17, 12:31=A0pm, "Lee Michaels"
<leemichaels*[email protected]> wrote:
> "Joe AutoDrill" =A0wrote
>
> > The whole reason I asked the question is so I could say with some
> > authority that going too fast may not hurt his piece (burning isn't an
> > issue) but will kill tool life.
>
> I vaguely remember an old girlfriend saying something similar to me.
LOLOL!!
Joe AutoDrill <[email protected]> wrote:
> More of a tooling question as I can figure out how to drill, etc...
> <G>
> If a customer of mine decided to run his tooling at 3,000 RPM for a
> 1" hole in wood and the thing smokes like a bandit... Is he possibly
> ruining the "drill bit" by overheating it? I've got a chart with
> very conservative drill speed / feed numbers but I've also got this
> one customer who doesn't care if he burns a bit on his production
> drilling process and I don't know whether to warn him about ruining
> his tooling or not. Probably a spade-type bit. 27/64" diameter in
> green wood... And yes, it is smoke, not steam. :)
> Here is the speed / feed chart if anyone finds it useful:
> http://www.multi-drill.com/drill-speed-chart.htm
>
> Regards,
> Joe Agro, Jr.
> (800) 871-5022
> 01.908.542.0244
> Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
> Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
>
> V8013-R
Whjy worry? He's going to know from experience soon enough.
Joe AutoDrill wrote:
>> The smoke is probably coming from the burning wood also. Spade bits are
>> not so bad although I seldom use them but twist bits, brad point bits, and
>> especially Forstner bits will over heat and also burn the wood if running
>> too many RPM's.
>
> No doubt the smoke is coming from burning wood... The question is basically
> whether the burining wood / heat build-up could de-tempter the metal drill
> tooling.
Oh, most definitely it can...the moisture in the wet wood will provide a
small amount of cooling until it's "steamed-off", but after that wood is
even less effective than steel for carrying away heat from the hole
although the amount generated is far less owing to the material being so
much softer. Of course, the high rpm makes up for a lot of that... :)
> Personally, I like the smell of burnt wood but I want to sell a machine that
> works. This guy is drilling 250 holes at a time with my machines... And he
> is doing it everty 3 minutes, 24/7 on a production line... That's a lot of
> mistakes if I get it wrong. :)
...
What are you using at present for the bits and who's the supplier?
Might try talking w/ Amana or whoever you deal with regularly for
tooling and get suggestions for such a specific purpose. Of course, if
thruput is high enough and the wearout rate isn't too excessive, perhaps
it could be cost-effective to just use HSS and replace/sharpen on a
shift or determined basis.
--
Joe AutoDrill wrote:
>> Oh, most definitely it can...the moisture in the wet wood will provide a
>> small amount of cooling until it's "steamed-off", but after that wood is
>> even less effective than steel for carrying away heat from the hole
>> although the amount generated is far less owing to the material being so
>> much softer. Of course, the high rpm makes up for a lot of that... :)
>
> LOL... It's a tit-for-tat-type calculation then. :)
Yep... :) I've not seen any engineering calculations for the problem
but that doesn't mean they don't exist, at least approximately.
>> What are you using at present for the bits and who's the supplier? ...
>
> The tooling is up to the customer, thank God! Too many choices / variables.
>
> For the size hole he is drilling 5.5" to 6" deep, I suggested 1000 RPM. He
> ran a test on a drill press 3" deep at 3000 RPM and got minimal to no
> smoke... Deeper bound up a bit and we included a peck cycle to overcome
> that but he still smokes through a little... So I'm guessing that 2000-2500
> RPM is going to work well for him. The whole reason I asked the question is
> so I could say with some authority that going too fast may not hurt his
> piece (burning isn't an issue for him) but will kill tool life.
For that depth, it may be that something with chip ejection would be
even more beneficial than just the material -- of course, other than
the secondary feedback it sounds like the choice is the customer's not
yours. If throughput and/or tool cost becomes excessive w/ time,
though, that would be an area to suggest investigation into.
As another responder noted, HSS will take quite a bit of heat, but at
that throughput tooling isn't going to have much time to cool off
between uses so the start temperature is going to gradually be higher as
the shift progresses which will raise final tip temperatures as well.
It may reach a tolerable steady state, though; only time/experience will
tell. I'd say the lower rpm will help significantly on the temperature
at some expense in throughput, perhaps, depending on the material.
Good luck; not a trivial problem by any means...
OBTW, if it doesn't go away w/ a satisfactory solution, you might look
into what you can find on the issue at the US Forest Products
Laboratories -- if there's published information for such production
issues readily available there or one of the University laboratories in
the wood-manufacturing areas (NC, MI, etc., ...) would be my starting point.
--
Joe AutoDrill wrote:
>>>> My question is WHY drill wood at 3,000 rpm and is the wood still intact?
>>> Cycle time in a production drilling environment is critical... Faster is
>>> ... er... faster if it can be done at all.
>> Unless it causes delays for changing out bits too often..
>
> True... Thus the original question I suppose. If you spend the money, a
> bit can probably be purchased with very high RPM capabilities. As someone
> else said, wood router tables run into the 10,000+ RPM range with the same
> diameter... Carbide bits would change the whole scenario... But with this
> guy's volume, I'm not sure that is an option for him.
A major difference between the router and the drill is the chip removal
and surface area in contact as well as the speed. That's where the chip
ejection is such an issue in aiding the speed and heat rejection as well...
--
mac davis wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:45:19 -0600, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> True... Thus the original question I suppose. If you spend the money, a
>>> bit can probably be purchased with very high RPM capabilities. As someone
>>> else said, wood router tables run into the 10,000+ RPM range with the same
>>> diameter... Carbide bits would change the whole scenario... But with this
>>> guy's volume, I'm not sure that is an option for him.
>> A major difference between the router and the drill is the chip removal
>> and surface area in contact as well as the speed. That's where the chip
>> ejection is such an issue in aiding the speed and heat rejection as well...
>
> I would guess that hole depth and whether it's a blind or through hole would
> make a big difference in heat and chip ejection..
Yes, the OP (or a followup, maybe?) said 5-6" deep iirc w/ minimal
blowout a secondary concern. Remember the thru hole is blind until it
actually breaks through too, of course... :)
--
"Joe AutoDrill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:PbJjj.13379$KU.2962@trnddc01...
> More of a tooling question as I can figure out how to drill, etc... <G>
>
> If a customer of mine decided to run his tooling at 3,000 RPM for a 1"
> hole in wood and the thing smokes like a bandit... Is he possibly ruining
> the "drill bit" by overheating it? I've got a chart with very
> conservative drill speed / feed numbers but I've also got this one
> customer who doesn't care if he burns a bit on his production drilling
> process and I don't know whether to warn him about ruining his tooling or
> not. Probably a spade-type bit. 27/64" diameter in green wood... And
> yes, it is smoke, not steam. :)
>
> Here is the speed / feed chart if anyone finds it useful:
> http://www.multi-drill.com/drill-speed-chart.htm
>
> Regards,
> Joe Agro, Jr.
> (800) 871-5022
> 01.908.542.0244
> Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
> Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
>
> V8013-R
Yes, it is possible to have ruined a bit by overheating. The bit can loose
its temper and not
stay sharp very long after or after retargeting.
On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:00:15 GMT, "Joe AutoDrill" <[email protected]> wrote:
>More of a tooling question as I can figure out how to drill, etc... <G>
>
>If a customer of mine decided to run his tooling at 3,000 RPM for a 1" hole
>in wood and the thing smokes like a bandit... Is he possibly ruining the
>"drill bit" by overheating it? I've got a chart with very conservative
>drill speed / feed numbers but I've also got this one customer who doesn't
>care if he burns a bit on his production drilling process and I don't know
>whether to warn him about ruining his tooling or not. Probably a spade-type
>bit. 27/64" diameter in green wood... And yes, it is smoke, not steam. :)
>
Joe.. I think you would/wood generate enough heat to weaken or "untemper" the
bit..
My question is WHY drill wood at 3,000 rpm and is the wood still intact?
You'd think that the wood has to at least discolor.. I drill on the lathe and it
I use too much speed the wood will darken and sometimes the heat will crack it..
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:32:00 GMT, "Joe AutoDrill" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> My question is WHY drill wood at 3,000 rpm and is the wood still intact?
>
>Cycle time in a production drilling environment is critical... Faster is
>... er... faster if it can be done at all.
Unless it causes delays for changing out bits too often..
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
>If it's a carbon steel bit, he's likely ruined it. If it's high speed
>steel, however, it should be fine. You have to get HSS pretty hot to
>draw the temper.
>
>What color are the bits? If you can still see oxidation colors on
>them, they haven't gotten too hot.
Customer is doing the testing. I always tell people to use HSS or better
tooling. In his case, he may want to use a carbide insert spade drill made
for the job since it is such high volume, etc.
--
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
V8013-R