Help Desperately Needed - Slightly OT

I don't want to hijack the thread but how much danger would one be in if =
he took care of the problem himself ? What I am asking is you don't get =
lung cancer from one cigarette would there really be a health risk if he =
removed the asbestos himself ? Taking of course common sense =
precautions.
Puff

"Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
> I think I'd run an exhaust fan to pull out airborne particles until =
the
> results are back. The fan should be as near the stuff as possible and
> blowing out.
> Wilson
> "Glen Duff" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > My wife and I finally began the demolition of our kitchen walls, =
etc.
> > for the cabinet project and dream kitchen she designed.
> >
> > We live in a 165 year old stone farm house and built the cabinets =
before
> > beginning to tear down the false walls and insulate/rebuild new =
walls.
> > We discovered an insulating material in the ceiling and stuffed =
behind
> > the laths on an interior wall and are concerned that it might be
> > asbestos. We are now awaiting lab tests. We have reason to believe =
the
> > insultation was installed in 1967 as we found an old newspaper =
stuffed
> > into an old duct behind the insulation.
> >
> > Does anyone know of any sites that give information on identifying =
the
> > insulation, perhaps using a microscope. Also, was loose asbestos =
still
> > used in 1967. I would like to try to identify it for myself as the =
lab
> > test for some stupid reason takes several days. We are hoping that =
it
> > might be mineral wool instead. Needless to say, the demolition is =
on
> > hold and since the kitchen was temporarily moved to two adjacent =
rooms
> > we're in a big mess!!!
> >
> > Thanks for any advice or help.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Glen Duff
> > Rockwood, Ontario, Canada
> >
> > "If it looks easy it will be difficult. If it looks difficult it =
will
> > be impossible." anon
> >
>=20
>

"Wes Stewart" <n7ws@_arrl.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
> But since a sample has been sent off to be tested, the cat may be out
> of the bag and the "authorities" might require abatement.

In many areas a homeowner can do his own asbestos abatement. Really not a
big deal, either encapsulate it, or wet it well when removiing it.
Greg

Hi Glen,
Asbestos is easy to identify using phase contrast microscopy. In addition
to the scope you will need the proper mounting oils and a fare amount of
training in the technique. The test takes about 5 minutes. JG


Glen Duff wrote:

> My wife and I finally began the demolition of our kitchen walls, etc.
> for the cabinet project and dream kitchen she designed.
>
> We live in a 165 year old stone farm house and built the cabinets before
> beginning to tear down the false walls and insulate/rebuild new walls.
> We discovered an insulating material in the ceiling and stuffed behind
> the laths on an interior wall and are concerned that it might be
> asbestos. We are now awaiting lab tests. We have reason to believe the
> insultation was installed in 1967 as we found an old newspaper stuffed
> into an old duct behind the insulation.
>
> Does anyone know of any sites that give information on identifying the
> insulation, perhaps using a microscope. Also, was loose asbestos still
> used in 1967. I would like to try to identify it for myself as the lab
> test for some stupid reason takes several days. We are hoping that it
> might be mineral wool instead. Needless to say, the demolition is on
> hold and since the kitchen was temporarily moved to two adjacent rooms
> we're in a big mess!!!
>
> Thanks for any advice or help.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Glen Duff
> Rockwood, Ontario, Canada
>
> "If it looks easy it will be difficult. If it looks difficult it will
> be impossible." anon

Thanks for a lot of good comments. I pretty well agree with everything
that's been said.

We're expecting the results later today and until then we're letting
everything just sit. Any work we've done when there's any kind of dust
was/is with masks on. I expect the danger is more or less minimized.

My worst nightmare is the arrival of a dozen civil servants dressed in
space suits saying "we're here to help you!!!!" Probably the most
dangerous thing that could happen.

Cheers and thanks, we'll let you know the outcome.

Glen Duff
--------------------

Larry Jaques wrote:

> On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 05:18:45 -0400, Glen Duff
> <[email protected]> brought forth from the murky depths:
>
>
>>My wife and I finally began the demolition of our kitchen walls, etc.
>>for the cabinet project and dream kitchen she designed.
>>
>>We live in a 165 year old stone farm house and built the cabinets before
>>beginning to tear down the false walls and insulate/rebuild new walls.
>>We discovered an insulating material in the ceiling and stuffed behind
>>the laths on an interior wall and are concerned that it might be
>>asbestos. We are now awaiting lab tests. We have reason to believe the
>>insultation was installed in 1967 as we found an old newspaper stuffed
>>into an old duct behind the insulation.
>>
>
>>Does anyone know of any sites that give information on identifying the
>>insulation, perhaps using a microscope. Also, was loose asbestos still
>>used in 1967. I would like to try to identify it for myself as the lab
>>test for some stupid reason takes several days. We are hoping that it
>>might be mineral wool instead. Needless to say, the demolition is on
>>hold and since the kitchen was temporarily moved to two adjacent rooms
>>we're in a big mess!!!
>>
>
> Asbestos dangers are WAY overhyped since 95% of that produced
> was the safer type. It's not like you're working in a dusty
> asbestos mine/factory for years. Dust masks are standard fare
> for demo work, anyway.
>
> If it were my house, I'd have already had on my respirator or dust
> mask, continued the work, and be done by now. And I SURE as hell
> wouldn't have gotten the government involved. Crikey! That's a
> sure way to triple the cost of the house.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> - Boldly going - * Wondrous Website Design
> - nowhere. - * http://www.diversify.com
> -------------------------------------------------
>

Thanks again for all the good comments, advice.

We received a phone call from the lab this afternoon and the test was
negative. It was determined that it was mineral wool. We are thankful
for that and will continue with the remodelling/cabinet job.

Best wishes to all,

Glen Duff
---------------

Lazarus Long wrote:

> On 8 Apr 2004 14:30:22 -0700, [email protected] (Mutt) wrote:
>
>
>
>>I'm not trying to scare anyone, but just like you all will more than
>>likely have a healthy respect for a spinning tablesaw blade, one
>>should respect asbestos. This is why the guys who do abatement for a
>>living generally wear those tyvek suits and face shield respirators
>>and take a whole lot of other steps to protect their health. If you
>>do attempt physical removal, or attempt encapsulation, get a good dust
>>mask, not the paper kind, but the kind rated for such a hazardous
>>material - 3M or MSA make good ones of this type. Get box fans in the
>>windows to exhaust the dust and create a negative air pressure in the
>>room to prevent migration of dust into other areas of the house
>>(sealing the room doors with plastic sheets but with enough give allow
>>creation of the negative pressure is also a good idea), wear old
>>clothes that you can throw away with the asbestos debris after use and
>>vacumn up all debris into a new vacumn cleaner bag and dispose of it
>>immediately. Put all loose asbestos debris into heavy gauge plastic
>>bags and tape shut with duct tape. Shower right after you are done.
>>Common sense actions like this can make the operation relatively safe,
>>but certainly not risk free. Ultimate disposal of the bagged debris
>>depends on state law, i.e., it might cost you $$ to send it to a
>>hazmat landfill, but better safe than sorry. Mutt
>>
>>
>>
>
> If it's loose material, why not encapulate it in concrete or grout and
> then simply toss it in the trash? This is what you can do if, for
> example you have asbestos containing flooring material. The asbestos
> is encapulated in the vinyl so it isn't possible to become airborne,
> ergo, into the trash it can go. This might cost less and actually
> lock it away from causing harm. If, in fact, the OP does actually
> have an asbestos problem.
>

My father was a Johns-Manville plant worker for 40 years and died of
asbestosis at age 73, and coincidentially I did some workers
compensation defense representation for asbestos producing companies,
so I know a little about this issue from a risk mitigation
perspective.

First, in perhaps the vast majority of cases it takes significant
exposure to asbestos over time, and most of the time this was
unprotected exposure, to contract severe asbestosis. Lesser exposure
can surely impact the lungs to some degree, and unprotected exposure
should clearly be avoided if at all possible. It is an accretive
illness, where the small fibers lodge in the lungs, and the body
basically encapsulates the fiber, disabling the lung little by little,
reducing breathing capacity. It is chronic, and long term, and most
folks die from right sided heart failure, as a pulmonary (lung)
insufficiency generally places undue strain on the right side of the
heart. It is a wasting disease, as my father was 6'2" and over 250
well built pounds (not fat) in his prime, and weighed 125 lbs when he
died. He was on oxygen for the last 2 years of his life, and spent the
last 9 months bedridden. It wasn't pretty, but he kept his spirits up
was pretty philosophic about the whole thing (i.e., they gave him a
job in the depression and when he got back from WWII, etc.), and I was
with him when he died, for which I am eternally grateful.

Second, the more insidious risk is that of mesothelioma, which is a
cancer of the pleurial (spelling might be wrong) lining of the lung.
The only known cause is asbestos exposure. There is no treatment, and
it is uniformly fatal within a 6 to 8 month period, or shorter,
depending on when it is diagnosed. I had two cases that involved a 4
month and a 6 month exposure to airborne asbestos by seasonal
employees in a relatively clean plant environment, with no further
occupational exposure, and the disease developed within a 7 to 15 year
period. Such cases are in the distinct minority, perhaps the low
single digit percentages. But the risk remains, and the disease is a
fatal one.

I'm not trying to scare anyone, but just like you all will more than
likely have a healthy respect for a spinning tablesaw blade, one
should respect asbestos. This is why the guys who do abatement for a
living generally wear those tyvek suits and face shield respirators
and take a whole lot of other steps to protect their health. If you
do attempt physical removal, or attempt encapsulation, get a good dust
mask, not the paper kind, but the kind rated for such a hazardous
material - 3M or MSA make good ones of this type. Get box fans in the
windows to exhaust the dust and create a negative air pressure in the
room to prevent migration of dust into other areas of the house
(sealing the room doors with plastic sheets but with enough give allow
creation of the negative pressure is also a good idea), wear old
clothes that you can throw away with the asbestos debris after use and
vacumn up all debris into a new vacumn cleaner bag and dispose of it
immediately. Put all loose asbestos debris into heavy gauge plastic
bags and tape shut with duct tape. Shower right after you are done.
Common sense actions like this can make the operation relatively safe,
but certainly not risk free. Ultimate disposal of the bagged debris
depends on state law, i.e., it might cost you $$ to send it to a
hazmat landfill, but better safe than sorry. Mutt


Glen Duff <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> My wife and I finally began the demolition of our kitchen walls, etc.
> for the cabinet project and dream kitchen she designed.
>
> We live in a 165 year old stone farm house and built the cabinets before
> beginning to tear down the false walls and insulate/rebuild new walls.
> We discovered an insulating material in the ceiling and stuffed behind
> the laths on an interior wall and are concerned that it might be
> asbestos. We are now awaiting lab tests. We have reason to believe the
> insultation was installed in 1967 as we found an old newspaper stuffed
> into an old duct behind the insulation.
>
> Does anyone know of any sites that give information on identifying the
> insulation, perhaps using a microscope. Also, was loose asbestos still
> used in 1967. I would like to try to identify it for myself as the lab
> test for some stupid reason takes several days. We are hoping that it
> might be mineral wool instead. Needless to say, the demolition is on
> hold and since the kitchen was temporarily moved to two adjacent rooms
> we're in a big mess!!!
>
> Thanks for any advice or help.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Glen Duff
> Rockwood, Ontario, Canada
>
> "If it looks easy it will be difficult. If it looks difficult it will
> be impossible." anon

On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 14:39:20 GMT, "Paul in MN"
<[email protected]> wrote:

|The other train of thought may be to simply encapsulate it. Seal it in
|there and put your cabinets over it. Sometimes it is better to leave it
|alone as opposed to tearing it out and letting it become airborne. You may
|even have to have an asbestos abatement contractor take care of it for you
|if you decide to remove it. Not sure what residential is like but in
|commercial applications it is a BIG project including hordeing off of the
|area and sealing.
|
|Just a thought....

I agree. It's only a problem when airborne. If it can't get into the
air the hazard is nil.

But since a sample has been sent off to be tested, the cat may be out
of the bag and the "authorities" might require abatement.

Glen Duff <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Thanks for a lot of good comments. I pretty well agree with
> everything that's been said.
>
> We're expecting the results later today and until then we're letting
> everything just sit. Any work we've done when there's any kind of
> dust was/is with masks on. I expect the danger is more or less
> minimized.
>
> My worst nightmare is the arrival of a dozen civil servants dressed in
> space suits saying "we're here to help you!!!!" Probably the most
> dangerous thing that could happen.
>

I have a co-worker that bought an old house. After many years he
decided to remove the oil tank. He hired a contrcator to do the work.
The contractor removed the tank and sent in some soil samples to the
EPA. The ruled that there was excesive contamination and the bad soil
must be sent to a hazardist waste site. $20,000.00 later the hole is
filled in and the co-worker is standing beside the filled in hole whith
the contractor. The contractor shakes his head and says, "It's a shame.
The levels were so low that one good rain after we pulled the tank would
have lowered them enough so it would have passed."

No, the police were not called.

Good to hear. Good luck on your project.


On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 21:16:51 -0400, Glen Duff
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Thanks again for all the good comments, advice.
>
>We received a phone call from the lab this afternoon and the test was
>negative. It was determined that it was mineral wool. We are thankful
>for that and will continue with the remodelling/cabinet job.
>
>Best wishes to all,
>
>Glen Duff
>---------------
>
>Lazarus Long wrote:
>
>> On 8 Apr 2004 14:30:22 -0700, [email protected] (Mutt) wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>I'm not trying to scare anyone, but just like you all will more than
>>>likely have a healthy respect for a spinning tablesaw blade, one
>>>should respect asbestos. This is why the guys who do abatement for a
>>>living generally wear those tyvek suits and face shield respirators
>>>and take a whole lot of other steps to protect their health. If you
>>>do attempt physical removal, or attempt encapsulation, get a good dust
>>>mask, not the paper kind, but the kind rated for such a hazardous
>>>material - 3M or MSA make good ones of this type. Get box fans in the
>>>windows to exhaust the dust and create a negative air pressure in the
>>>room to prevent migration of dust into other areas of the house
>>>(sealing the room doors with plastic sheets but with enough give allow
>>>creation of the negative pressure is also a good idea), wear old
>>>clothes that you can throw away with the asbestos debris after use and
>>>vacumn up all debris into a new vacumn cleaner bag and dispose of it
>>>immediately. Put all loose asbestos debris into heavy gauge plastic
>>>bags and tape shut with duct tape. Shower right after you are done.
>>>Common sense actions like this can make the operation relatively safe,
>>>but certainly not risk free. Ultimate disposal of the bagged debris
>>>depends on state law, i.e., it might cost you $$ to send it to a
>>>hazmat landfill, but better safe than sorry. Mutt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> If it's loose material, why not encapulate it in concrete or grout and
>> then simply toss it in the trash? This is what you can do if, for
>> example you have asbestos containing flooring material. The asbestos
>> is encapulated in the vinyl so it isn't possible to become airborne,
>> ergo, into the trash it can go. This might cost less and actually
>> lock it away from causing harm. If, in fact, the OP does actually
>> have an asbestos problem.
>>

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 07:05:38 -0400, Glen Duff
<[email protected]> brought forth from the murky depths:

>Thanks for a lot of good comments. I pretty well agree with everything
>that's been said.
>
>We're expecting the results later today and until then we're letting
>everything just sit. Any work we've done when there's any kind of dust
>was/is with masks on. I expect the danger is more or less minimized.

Yeah, lungs just don't like things inside them which mess with
the way they work. Masks/respirators are good, cheap insurance.
I've even started painting in the house with the organic vapor
respirator on and it really helps reduce headaches for those few,
potent, wet, offgassing hours.


>My worst nightmare is the arrival of a dozen civil servants dressed in
>space suits saying "we're here to help you!!!!" Probably the most
>dangerous thing that could happen.

Not dangerous, just an unexpected $450,000 expense.
Best of luck with a clean bill of health from the lab.
Make sure they tell you what type of asbestos it is _if_
it is, indeed, asbestos.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
If God approved of nudity, we all would have been born naked.
----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
http://www.diversify.com Your Wild & Woody Website Wonk

I think I'd run an exhaust fan to pull out airborne particles until the
results are back. The fan should be as near the stuff as possible and
blowing out.
Wilson
"Glen Duff" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> My wife and I finally began the demolition of our kitchen walls, etc.
> for the cabinet project and dream kitchen she designed.
>
> We live in a 165 year old stone farm house and built the cabinets before
> beginning to tear down the false walls and insulate/rebuild new walls.
> We discovered an insulating material in the ceiling and stuffed behind
> the laths on an interior wall and are concerned that it might be
> asbestos. We are now awaiting lab tests. We have reason to believe the
> insultation was installed in 1967 as we found an old newspaper stuffed
> into an old duct behind the insulation.
>
> Does anyone know of any sites that give information on identifying the
> insulation, perhaps using a microscope. Also, was loose asbestos still
> used in 1967. I would like to try to identify it for myself as the lab
> test for some stupid reason takes several days. We are hoping that it
> might be mineral wool instead. Needless to say, the demolition is on
> hold and since the kitchen was temporarily moved to two adjacent rooms
> we're in a big mess!!!
>
> Thanks for any advice or help.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Glen Duff
> Rockwood, Ontario, Canada
>
> "If it looks easy it will be difficult. If it looks difficult it will
> be impossible." anon
>

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Glen Duff <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> > Thanks for a lot of good comments. I pretty well agree with
> > everything that's been said.
> >
> > We're expecting the results later today and until then we're letting
> > everything just sit. Any work we've done when there's any kind of
> > dust was/is with masks on. I expect the danger is more or less
> > minimized.
> >
> > My worst nightmare is the arrival of a dozen civil servants dressed in
> > space suits saying "we're here to help you!!!!" Probably the most
> > dangerous thing that could happen.
> >
>
> I have a co-worker that bought an old house. After many years he
> decided to remove the oil tank. He hired a contrcator to do the work.
> The contractor removed the tank and sent in some soil samples to the
> EPA. The ruled that there was excesive contamination and the bad soil
> must be sent to a hazardist waste site. $20,000.00 later the hole is
> filled in and the co-worker is standing beside the filled in hole whith
> the contractor. The contractor shakes his head and says, "It's a shame.
> The levels were so low that one good rain after we pulled the tank would
> have lowered them enough so it would have passed."
>
> No, the police were not called.
>

Yeah, I'll bet the homeowner was really regretting the fact the hole
had already been filled in when the contractor said that.

Sorry to hear it Glen. A google search using the terms "identify blue
asbestos" brings in a number of hits, most of which indicate that there is
little you can do until your test results are known, and that the use of
asbestos carried on until the 70's.

All the best

Frank
"Glen Duff" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> My wife and I finally began the demolition of our kitchen walls, etc.
> for the cabinet project and dream kitchen she designed.
>
> We live in a 165 year old stone farm house and built the cabinets before
> beginning to tear down the false walls and insulate/rebuild new walls.
> We discovered an insulating material in the ceiling and stuffed behind
> the laths on an interior wall and are concerned that it might be
> asbestos. We are now awaiting lab tests. We have reason to believe the
> insultation was installed in 1967 as we found an old newspaper stuffed
> into an old duct behind the insulation.
>
> Does anyone know of any sites that give information on identifying the
> insulation, perhaps using a microscope. Also, was loose asbestos still
> used in 1967. I would like to try to identify it for myself as the lab
> test for some stupid reason takes several days. We are hoping that it
> might be mineral wool instead. Needless to say, the demolition is on
> hold and since the kitchen was temporarily moved to two adjacent rooms
> we're in a big mess!!!
>
> Thanks for any advice or help.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Glen Duff
> Rockwood, Ontario, Canada
>
> "If it looks easy it will be difficult. If it looks difficult it will
> be impossible." anon
>


---
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Joe Willmann <[email protected]> wrote:

> I have a co-worker that bought an old house. After many years he
> decided to remove the oil tank. He hired a contrcator to do the work.
> The contractor removed the tank and sent in some soil samples to the
> EPA. The ruled that there was excesive contamination and the bad soil
> must be sent to a hazardist waste site. $20,000.00 later the hole is
> filled in and the co-worker is standing beside the filled in hole whith
> the contractor. The contractor shakes his head and says, "It's a shame.
> The levels were so low that one good rain after we pulled the tank would
> have lowered them enough so it would have passed."

This is one of those cases where the EPA is being counter-productive
in my opinion. What is going to happen is people will just never
dig up old oil tanks, thus increasing the likelyhood of soil
contamination. I know a friend of mine had his old oil tank
just covered over because that is legal and they don't have
to test the soil. Is that *really* what they want?

Try to do the right thing and the make it hard on you, do
nothing and they leave you alone.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

In article <[email protected]>, Larry Jaques
<novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> says...
> On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 07:05:38 -0400, Glen Duff
> <[email protected]> brought forth from the murky depths:
>
... snip
>
> >My worst nightmare is the arrival of a dozen civil servants dressed in
> >space suits saying "we're here to help you!!!!" Probably the most
> >dangerous thing that could happen.
>
> Not dangerous, just an unexpected $450,000 expense.
> Best of luck with a clean bill of health from the lab.
> Make sure they tell you what type of asbestos it is _if_
> it is, indeed, asbestos.
>

Problem is, I don't think the regulations distinguish between the two.
Like most knee-jerk legislation, a sledge hammer was applied to kill a
fly.

>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> If God approved of nudity, we all would have been born naked.
> ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
> http://www.diversify.com Your Wild & Woody Website Wonk
>

If I had been your cow-orker the police or the morgue would have indeed =
been needed.
Puff

"Joe Willmann" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
> Glen Duff <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:=20
>=20
> > Thanks for a lot of good comments. I pretty well agree with
> > everything that's been said.
> >=20
> > We're expecting the results later today and until then we're letting =

> > everything just sit. Any work we've done when there's any kind of
> > dust was/is with masks on. I expect the danger is more or less
> > minimized.=20
> >=20
> > My worst nightmare is the arrival of a dozen civil servants dressed =
in
> > space suits saying "we're here to help you!!!!" Probably the most=20
> > dangerous thing that could happen.
> >=20
>=20
> I have a co-worker that bought an old house. After many years he=20
> decided to remove the oil tank. He hired a contrcator to do the work. =
=20
> The contractor removed the tank and sent in some soil samples to the=20
> EPA. The ruled that there was excesive contamination and the bad soil =

> must be sent to a hazardist waste site. $20,000.00 later the hole is=20
> filled in and the co-worker is standing beside the filled in hole =
whith=20
> the contractor. The contractor shakes his head and says, "It's a =
shame. =20
> The levels were so low that one good rain after we pulled the tank =
would=20
> have lowered them enough so it would have passed."
>=20
> No, the police were not called.

if you end up doing your own removal, consider spraying the stuff down
with a bonding agent before you touch it, and throughout the process
any time it looks like it might be thinking about releasing any
airborne particles. something fast drying and nontoxic, like, say,
shellac.....




On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 07:05:38 -0400, Glen Duff
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Thanks for a lot of good comments. I pretty well agree with everything
>that's been said.
>
>We're expecting the results later today and until then we're letting
>everything just sit. Any work we've done when there's any kind of dust
>was/is with masks on. I expect the danger is more or less minimized.
>
>My worst nightmare is the arrival of a dozen civil servants dressed in
>space suits saying "we're here to help you!!!!" Probably the most
>dangerous thing that could happen.
>
>Cheers and thanks, we'll let you know the outcome.
>
>Glen Duff
>--------------------
>
>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 05:18:45 -0400, Glen Duff
>> <[email protected]> brought forth from the murky depths:
>>
>>
>>>My wife and I finally began the demolition of our kitchen walls, etc.
>>>for the cabinet project and dream kitchen she designed.
>>>
>>>We live in a 165 year old stone farm house and built the cabinets before
>>>beginning to tear down the false walls and insulate/rebuild new walls.
>>>We discovered an insulating material in the ceiling and stuffed behind
>>>the laths on an interior wall and are concerned that it might be
>>>asbestos. We are now awaiting lab tests. We have reason to believe the
>>>insultation was installed in 1967 as we found an old newspaper stuffed
>>>into an old duct behind the insulation.
>>>
>>
>>>Does anyone know of any sites that give information on identifying the
>>>insulation, perhaps using a microscope. Also, was loose asbestos still
>>>used in 1967. I would like to try to identify it for myself as the lab
>>>test for some stupid reason takes several days. We are hoping that it
>>>might be mineral wool instead. Needless to say, the demolition is on
>>>hold and since the kitchen was temporarily moved to two adjacent rooms
>>>we're in a big mess!!!
>>>
>>
>> Asbestos dangers are WAY overhyped since 95% of that produced
>> was the safer type. It's not like you're working in a dusty
>> asbestos mine/factory for years. Dust masks are standard fare
>> for demo work, anyway.
>>
>> If it were my house, I'd have already had on my respirator or dust
>> mask, continued the work, and be done by now. And I SURE as hell
>> wouldn't have gotten the government involved. Crikey! That's a
>> sure way to triple the cost of the house.
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------
>> - Boldly going - * Wondrous Website Design
>> - nowhere. - * http://www.diversify.com
>> -------------------------------------------------
>>

Someone in alt.home.repair might be able to help.

On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 05:18:45 -0400, Glen Duff
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Does anyone know of any sites that give information on identifying the
>insulation, perhaps using a microscope. Also, was loose asbestos still
>used in 1967. I would like to try to identify it for myself as the lab
>test for some stupid reason takes several days. We are hoping that it
>might be mineral wool instead. Needless to say, the demolition is on
>hold and since the kitchen was temporarily moved to two adjacent rooms
>we're in a big mess!!!

On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 05:18:45 -0400, Glen Duff
<[email protected]> brought forth from the murky depths:

>My wife and I finally began the demolition of our kitchen walls, etc.
>for the cabinet project and dream kitchen she designed.
>
>We live in a 165 year old stone farm house and built the cabinets before
>beginning to tear down the false walls and insulate/rebuild new walls.
>We discovered an insulating material in the ceiling and stuffed behind
>the laths on an interior wall and are concerned that it might be
>asbestos. We are now awaiting lab tests. We have reason to believe the
>insultation was installed in 1967 as we found an old newspaper stuffed
>into an old duct behind the insulation.

>Does anyone know of any sites that give information on identifying the
>insulation, perhaps using a microscope. Also, was loose asbestos still
>used in 1967. I would like to try to identify it for myself as the lab
>test for some stupid reason takes several days. We are hoping that it
>might be mineral wool instead. Needless to say, the demolition is on
>hold and since the kitchen was temporarily moved to two adjacent rooms
>we're in a big mess!!!

Asbestos dangers are WAY overhyped since 95% of that produced
was the safer type. It's not like you're working in a dusty
asbestos mine/factory for years. Dust masks are standard fare
for demo work, anyway.

If it were my house, I'd have already had on my respirator or dust
mask, continued the work, and be done by now. And I SURE as hell
wouldn't have gotten the government involved. Crikey! That's a
sure way to triple the cost of the house.


-------------------------------------------------
- Boldly going - * Wondrous Website Design
- nowhere. - * http://www.diversify.com
-------------------------------------------------

On 8 Apr 2004 14:30:22 -0700, [email protected] (Mutt) wrote:


>I'm not trying to scare anyone, but just like you all will more than
>likely have a healthy respect for a spinning tablesaw blade, one
>should respect asbestos. This is why the guys who do abatement for a
>living generally wear those tyvek suits and face shield respirators
>and take a whole lot of other steps to protect their health. If you
>do attempt physical removal, or attempt encapsulation, get a good dust
>mask, not the paper kind, but the kind rated for such a hazardous
>material - 3M or MSA make good ones of this type. Get box fans in the
>windows to exhaust the dust and create a negative air pressure in the
>room to prevent migration of dust into other areas of the house
>(sealing the room doors with plastic sheets but with enough give allow
>creation of the negative pressure is also a good idea), wear old
>clothes that you can throw away with the asbestos debris after use and
>vacumn up all debris into a new vacumn cleaner bag and dispose of it
>immediately. Put all loose asbestos debris into heavy gauge plastic
>bags and tape shut with duct tape. Shower right after you are done.
>Common sense actions like this can make the operation relatively safe,
>but certainly not risk free. Ultimate disposal of the bagged debris
>depends on state law, i.e., it might cost you $$ to send it to a
>hazmat landfill, but better safe than sorry. Mutt
>
>

If it's loose material, why not encapulate it in concrete or grout and
then simply toss it in the trash? This is what you can do if, for
example you have asbestos containing flooring material. The asbestos
is encapulated in the vinyl so it isn't possible to become airborne,
ergo, into the trash it can go. This might cost less and actually
lock it away from causing harm. If, in fact, the OP does actually
have an asbestos problem.

The other train of thought may be to simply encapsulate it. Seal it in
there and put your cabinets over it. Sometimes it is better to leave it
alone as opposed to tearing it out and letting it become airborne. You may
even have to have an asbestos abatement contractor take care of it for you
if you decide to remove it. Not sure what residential is like but in
commercial applications it is a BIG project including hordeing off of the
area and sealing.

Just a thought....

Paul

"Puff Griffis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:%%[email protected]...
I don't want to hijack the thread but how much danger would one be in if he
took care of the problem himself ? What I am asking is you don't get lung
cancer from one cigarette would there really be a health risk if he removed
the asbestos himself ? Taking of course common sense precautions.
Puff

"Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I think I'd run an exhaust fan to pull out airborne particles until the
> results are back. The fan should be as near the stuff as possible and
> blowing out.
> Wilson
> "Glen Duff" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > My wife and I finally began the demolition of our kitchen walls, etc.
> > for the cabinet project and dream kitchen she designed.
> >
> > We live in a 165 year old stone farm house and built the cabinets before
> > beginning to tear down the false walls and insulate/rebuild new walls.
> > We discovered an insulating material in the ceiling and stuffed behind
> > the laths on an interior wall and are concerned that it might be
> > asbestos. We are now awaiting lab tests. We have reason to believe the
> > insultation was installed in 1967 as we found an old newspaper stuffed
> > into an old duct behind the insulation.
> >
> > Does anyone know of any sites that give information on identifying the
> > insulation, perhaps using a microscope. Also, was loose asbestos still
> > used in 1967. I would like to try to identify it for myself as the lab
> > test for some stupid reason takes several days. We are hoping that it
> > might be mineral wool instead. Needless to say, the demolition is on
> > hold and since the kitchen was temporarily moved to two adjacent rooms
> > we're in a big mess!!!
> >
> > Thanks for any advice or help.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Glen Duff
> > Rockwood, Ontario, Canada
> >
> > "If it looks easy it will be difficult. If it looks difficult it will
> > be impossible." anon
> >
>
>

On Thu, 8 Apr 2004 20:42:28 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] wrote:

>Joe Willmann <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I have a co-worker that bought an old house. After many years he
>> decided to remove the oil tank.
>> EPA ruled that there was excesive contamination and the bad soil
>> must be sent to a hazardist waste site. $20,000.00 later.....
>> The levels were so low that one good rain after we pulled the tank would
>> have lowered them enough so it would have passed."
>
>This is one of those cases where the EPA is being counter-productive
>in my opinion.
>Is that *really* what they want?
>
>Try to do the right thing and the make it hard on you, do
>nothing and they leave you alone.
>
>Bill Ranck
>Blacksburg, Va.


No good deed goes unpunished

Glen Duff wrote:

> My wife and I finally began the demolition of our kitchen walls, etc.
> for the cabinet project and dream kitchen she designed.
>
> We live in a 165 year old stone farm house and built the cabinets before
> beginning to tear down the false walls and insulate/rebuild new walls.
> We discovered an insulating material in the ceiling and stuffed behind
> the laths on an interior wall and are concerned that it might be
> asbestos. We are now awaiting lab tests. We have reason to believe the
> insultation was installed in 1967 as we found an old newspaper stuffed
> into an old duct behind the insulation.
>
> Does anyone know of any sites that give information on identifying the
> insulation, perhaps using a microscope. Also, was loose asbestos still
> used in 1967. I would like to try to identify it for myself as the lab
> test for some stupid reason takes several days. We are hoping that it
> might be mineral wool instead. Needless to say, the demolition is on
> hold and since the kitchen was temporarily moved to two adjacent rooms
> we're in a big mess!!!
>
> Thanks for any advice or help.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Glen Duff
> Rockwood, Ontario, Canada
>
> "If it looks easy it will be difficult. If it looks difficult it will
> be impossible." anon
>
IIRC I started by calling my city health department, and they directed
me to a lab that Id' my attic insulation. Building inspector may be
able to help also.