ok, lately I've been running into some interesting Reports and Video. I'm
not sure how true these are or if they might be in the classification of
Conspiracy Theory's. But the PDF report was generated from a Report to
Congress as is the Testimony of Michael W. Masters Managing Member /
Portfolio Manager Masters Capital Management, LLC
Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs
United States Senate
May 20,
I think it's worth checking out:
http://hsgac.senate.gov/public/_files/052008Masters.pdf
Also a video by Lindsey Williams a Minister on the North Slope of Alaska who
according to him has first hand knowledge of this Non Oil Crisis. Believe
he is also the Author of a book of the same name. Again I'm not endorsing
him but he has some interesting facts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbakN7SLdbk
I do believe we are not getting the true facts about this so called Oil
problem. It has happened before and it won't be the last time. I'm just
wondering what the over all plan is: To destroy the US Economy or the
Worlds Economy. There is larger forces here at work and I'd like to know
who they are. And I'm not one that believes in Conspiracy's. But this one
has me thinking.
Rich
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Lee Michaels wrote:
> Morgan Stanley has to pay out a few million bucks and promises to be good
> boys in the future. But nobody goes to jail and it is doubtful if anybody
> will get fired. And this is a common practice with anybody who sells
> silver certificates.
Think that's common practice with anyone that sells anything. Buyer Beware!
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
If ignorance is bliss and your one happy turd!
I guess you and your fellow drooling little fools are as clueless regarding
Commodities as you are with war and politics. Stick to sticks kids! It isn't
commodities it's the unregulated trading on ICE! The ENRON Loophole allowed
ETF's to move their trading from the Regulated Futures Exchange NYMEX to ICE
the Intercontinetal Exchange created just a few months before the CFM Act
was signed into law....This spawned the growth of Hedge funds as offspring
of all the top Wall St. firms.
Gee and our Government apparently can't control or repair our economy.
Bernake, Bush and Hank Paulson all claim to not understand exactly why oil
prices are so high. Hank was sharp enough to unseat Jon Crozine as CEO of
GS.... and now nothing more then a clueless political hack? Funny how the
people in the know and paid to know are clueless clucks like most of you.
To enlighten know it alls!
Oil Prices blame BUSH!
For invading an oil producing nation for no apparent reason or as stated in
error and turning it into shit. Which creates the shortside of the supply
and demand model. This in conjunction with President Bill Clinton and the
Commodity Futures Modernization Act ( he signed it) and 181 Democrats and
194 Republicans. and Wall St. and the unregulated Market.
106th Congress / House / 2nd session / Vote 540
Question: On Motion to Suspend the Rules and Pass, As Amended
Bill: H R 4541
Vote description: Commodity Futures Modernization Act
Vote type: 2/3 Yea-and-Nay
Result: Passed, 377-4, with 51 not voting.
Date/time: October 19, 2000, 7:02 p.m.
Republican majority opinion: Yes
Democrat majority opinion: Yes
Enron apparently drafted the Proposal inserted in H.R. 4541 Through Phil
Gramm (McLames Economic Advisor)
Two attempts to close the Loophole both appear to be thwarted by Bush. He
vetoed the Farm Bill and promises to veto the current Energy Bill.
What's even funnier under Bush, defended ENRON, he also did nothing to stop
or even correct the higher energy costs inflicted by ENRON and did nothing
when Natural Gas was manipulted to record highs by hedge fund (Amaranth) Gee
remember all those commercials swearing how all of our utilitie bills would
go down and open the market up to create more competition... bet you clowns
drooled and jumped on that line!
What's worse though is our "Carbon Foot Print" carbon credits will soon
become the world's biggest commodity market completely unregulated and
affect the cost of EVERYTHING! Even to the point of taxing people themselves
since we are a carbon product in a carbon based world! It'll make oil look
like nothing!
FYI: Shell has already drilled pilot holes in ANWR Alaska. Shell also
refuses to release thier findings! As Bush Demands we Drill in ANWR...
neglecting his failed war(s) on an oil producing nation Actually 2 nations
but Afghanistan's oil isn't as much!
"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> evodawg wrote:
>
> > ok, lately I've been running into some interesting Reports and Video.
I'm
> > not sure how true these are or if they might be in the classification of
> > Conspiracy Theory's. But the PDF report was generated from a Report to
> > Congress as is the Testimony of Michael W. Masters Managing Member /
> > Portfolio Manager Masters Capital Management, LLC
> >
> > Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs
> > United States Senate
> > May 20,
> >
> > I think it's worth checking out:
> > http://hsgac.senate.gov/public/_files/052008Masters.pdf
> >
>
> Having read the article, I'm unclear how this is going to be beneficial
to
> those investors. Commodities markets are exactly that, trading in
> commodities, if a trader buys x barrels of December oil, x barrels of oil
> are going to show up at his doorstep in December unless he sells those
> barrels to someone else (doesn't matter if it's an institutional investor
> or a traditional trader). I realize the person in the article made the
> comment that the traders use "calendar shifting" to never take delivery,
> but that calendar shifting also represents a trade of some sort that
pushes
> out the delivery. This doesn't seem like a sustainable position -- I
> certainly hope my pension funds aren't engaging in this kind of thing.
> Eventually, the commodities, the futures, and the market will catch up
with
> one another -- doesn't matter if institutions hold the commodities or not,
> at some point, they have to be sold because they become real goods after
> harvest or being pumped from the ground -- it's got to go somewhere; i.e,
> it's no longer paper -- it's x barrels of oil or y bushels of wheat -- all
> headed to the commodity trader's place of business unless otherwise
> directed. If there is too much of the commodity at that time, the price
> will come down. They have a very strong bargaining position -- the
> commodity traders may "own" the commodity for which the traders paid a
high
> price and want to get that price back; however, they have nowhere to go
> with that commodity, they can't take delivery, the buyer is the person who
> has the facilities and ability to use the commodity, since most of those
> buyers are similarly large corporations, the investors have a limited base
> to whom they can sell.
>
> Sure seems like there is a bursting bubble heading our way. Which, if
> it's pension funds doing this is not a good thing.
>
>
>
> --
> If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough
On Jun 10, 10:37=A0am, "Lee Michaels" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>
>
> > Not necessary. Spitting on the street is sufficient ... go outside, spit=
,
> > wait for markets to close, purchase some petrol in the morning, report
> > back.
>
> Careful there Swingman, with insights like this, you could get hired at CN=
N
> as a "financial analyst".
LOL... or at Fark.com where they are convinced that oil-prices rise
whenever Paris Hilton does something stupid.
Robatoy wrote:
> On Jun 8, 8:00 pm, evodawg <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Robatoy wrote:
>>> In article <b8_2k.859$8q2.197@trnddc02>, evodawg <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Robatoy wrote:
>>>>> This might shed some light on some of your questions: yet another
>>>>> theory:
>>>>> http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/7075
>>>>> (Wait for the Kool-Aid crowd come running out, swords drawn. *I*
>>>>> didn't write that piece, but found it interesting as I tend to look at
>>>>> all sides instead of a brain-washed view with blinders on.)
>>>> That's pretty much what the PDF article says to. But he goes into more
>>>> depth of who is investing into these futures. Pension Funds, University's
>>>> and explains what will happen when the bottom drops out. More Enron's.
>>> That .pdf is indeed quite detailed. (printing) Thanks for that.
>> I agree. After spending the time to read it how could this be fabricated and
>> nonsense. Besides this guy says he's going against the grain and will
>> probably be admonished for it.
>> --
>> "You can lead them to LINUX
>> but you can't make them THINK"
>> Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
>
> If the prices of used RV's and motor yachts are any indication,
> adjustments in consumption are already starting in a big way. The
> average consumer might be a bit slow to 'get it', but, like a
> supertanker, it takes a big space to turn it around at full speed.
Jeez, Robatoy, your response to this is definitely different to what you
have been posting lately. You're not getting serious are you?
On Jun 10, 12:39=A0pm, evodawg <[email protected]> wrote:
> Can anyone buy these oil commodities or does it take big blocks of money
> that only these large Hedge Fund Companies can afford? From what I have
> read it seems so. I'm not an investor in commodities but I do dabble in
> NYSE and Penny Stocks. Not that I'm interested either, my thinking this
> market will take a dive.
>
> --
> "You can lead them to LINUX
> but you can't make them THINK"
> Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
If you want your stock to drop, just have me buy some of it. <G>
Just like if you want it to rain, ask me to wash my car. (That's more
regional phenomena though)
On Jun 10, 10:18=A0am, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" wrote
>
> > In article > =A0Mark & Juanita =A0wrote:
>
> > [snipped for brevity]
>
> > > =A0Stockpiling
> > > commodities is just plain dumb unless you believe production will go
> down
> > > (bad harvest, loss of use of pumps, etc).
>
> > The second largest OPEC member, if memory serves me, is Iran.
> > The threat of war from those opposed to the nuclear ambitions of Iran,
> > can be enough for the speculators to take a gamble.
> > Just a guess.
>
> Not necessary. Spitting on the street is sufficient ... go outside, spit,
> wait for markets to close, purchase some petrol in the morning, report bac=
k.
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 5/14/08
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
Okay, I just dropped a one-ounce loogie onto the sidewalk at 10:45 AM
and gas is $ 1.22 litre.
We'll see.
<G>
On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 05:21:24 GMT, evodawg <[email protected]> wrote:
>evodawg wrote:
>
>Thanks again you idiot Democrats. Guess the Pinheads are of a mindset to
>never let us ever drill another well in the US.
>
>House Subcommittee Rejects Plan to Open U.S. Waters to More Oil Exploration
>
>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,365627,00.html
There doesn't appear to be a dramatic shortage of oil that is driving
up the price. There are apparently tankers sitting off coasts filled
w/oil. Nor has demand increased in proportion to the price
(quintupling in relatively short time).
Drilling won't solve the immediate situation.
We can look at this as a warning for the future, to look for
alternatives (although, what's an alternative to plastic?) before it
truly becomes a real crisis, or we can have a knee jerk reaction and
sully up the planet in our quest for a few more drops.
The USA faced a challenge in gearing up to fight in WWII and we met
it. We can look at this as a similar challenge in magnitude (if not
even greater), but with a somewhat longer timeframe available to us.
How will we respond?
Renata
PS You'll be happy to hear that the powers that be have decided gas
will peak @ $4.15 in August. Given that we're already at $4.04, the
daily several cent increases that we've been seeing the last several
weeks will obviously will stop. Right?
On Jun 8, 6:51=A0pm, evodawg <[email protected]> wrote:
> ok, lately I've been running into some interesting Reports and Video. I'm
> not sure how true these are or if they might be in the classification of
> Conspiracy Theory's. But the PDF report was generated from a Report to
> Congress as is the Testimony of Michael W. Masters Managing Member /
> Portfolio Manager Masters Capital Management, LLC
>
> Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs
> United States Senate
> May 20,
>
> I think it's worth checking out:http://hsgac.senate.gov/public/_files/0520=
08Masters.pdf
>
> Also a video by Lindsey Williams a Minister on the North Slope of Alaska w=
ho
> according to him has first hand knowledge of this Non Oil Crisis. Believe
> he is also the Author of a book of the same name. Again I'm not endorsing
> him but he has some interesting facts.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DNba=
kN7SLdbk
>
> I do believe we are not getting the true facts about this so called Oil
> problem. It has happened before and it won't be the last time. I'm just
> wondering what the over all plan is: To destroy the US Economy or the
> Worlds Economy. There is larger forces here at work and I'd like to know
> who they are. And I'm not one that believes in Conspiracy's. But this one
> has me thinking.
>
> Rich =A0
> --
> "You can lead them to LINUX
> but you can't make them THINK"
> Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
This might shed some light on some of your questions: yet another
theory:
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/7075
(Wait for the Kool-Aid crowd come running out, swords drawn. *I*
didn't write that piece, but found it interesting as I tend to look at
all sides instead of a brain-washed view with blinders on.)
"evodawg" wrote
> Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>> Morgan Stanley has to pay out a few million bucks and promises to be good
>> boys in the future. But nobody goes to jail and it is doubtful if anybody
>> will get fired. And this is a common practice with anybody who sells
>> silver certificates.
>
> Think that's common practice with anyone that sells anything. Buyer
> Beware!
>
Exactly!! If you ever buy silver bullion or certificates, there is a serial
number. Ask for that number. If they won't provide you with a number, they
never bought the silver.
And like you said, it is a common practice.
"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> dpb wrote:
>
>> evodawg wrote:
>> ...
>>> But consumption here (US) has had to have gone down. ...
>>
>> A small percentage in last month or two from otherwise historic high
>> levels leaving at overall high rates as compared to (say) 10 yr ago or
>> so...
>>
>> --
>
> Yet, since 1985, domestic production has gone down 40% while consumption
> has gone up 30%. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if
> we were to take the restraints off in terms of being able to drill in the
> US and build refineries, we could solve a significant amount of our
> problem.
>
>
> --
Exactly! We need to depend more on us. I'm all for saving the forests and so
on BUT it's time we started drilling at home. These oil prices are about to
get us in a bind because we can't or won't produce our own. Alaska may have
to give it up to help the rest of th US.
Can anyone buy these oil commodities or does it take big blocks of money
that only these large Hedge Fund Companies can afford? From what I have
read it seems so. I'm not an investor in commodities but I do dabble in
NYSE and Penny Stocks. Not that I'm interested either, my thinking this
market will take a dive.
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Renata wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 05:21:24 GMT, evodawg <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>evodawg wrote:
>>
>>Thanks again you idiot Democrats. Guess the Pinheads are of a mindset to
>>never let us ever drill another well in the US.
>>
>>House Subcommittee Rejects Plan to Open U.S. Waters to More Oil
>>Exploration
>>
>>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,365627,00.html
>
> There doesn't appear to be a dramatic shortage of oil that is driving
> up the price. There are apparently tankers sitting off coasts filled
> w/oil.
...and they can't sit there forever. Oil tankers aren't free; somebody
has to pay for the tanker, and at a rate that is equivalent or greater than
the tanker owner would earn if it was doing its as-designed purpose of
transporting oil.
A secondary problem here is we need more refinery capacity in addition to
increased supply. The increased supply goes beyond just the additional
oil, it also includes reduced dependency on foreign sources of oil.
Domestic means not getting controlled by a bunch of oil sheiks in far-off
countries.
> Nor has demand increased in proportion to the price
> (quintupling in relatively short time).
>
> Drilling won't solve the immediate situation.
>
But it will sure help for the future. Drilling now and getting oil in
several years is much more logical than not drilling now and not getting
any more oil in several years, yet the anti-capitalist politicians seem to
think that the prospect of 0 barrels of oil in the future since they can't
have it now is somehow better than starting now to get more oil in the
future.
> We can look at this as a warning for the future, to look for
> alternatives (although, what's an alternative to plastic?) before it
> truly becomes a real crisis, or we can have a knee jerk reaction and
> sully up the planet in our quest for a few more drops.
>
Sully up the planet? Puhleez. ANWR is going to use 2000 acres out of 19
MILLION acres -- that doesn't even come close to that loaded word. The
amount of acreage used is the equivalent of a 1.5" square in a 12 foot by
12 foot room. Would you consider a bare room to be "sullied" if a 1.5"
square area had a spot on it? Now, in reality, the real situation will be
a bunch of thin lines throughout the whole area, but it's just not worth
the additional work to embellish the illustration.
> The USA faced a challenge in gearing up to fight in WWII and we met
> it. We can look at this as a similar challenge in magnitude (if not
> even greater), but with a somewhat longer timeframe available to us.
> How will we respond?
>
> Renata
>
> PS You'll be happy to hear that the powers that be have decided gas
> will peak @ $4.15 in August. Given that we're already at $4.04, the
> daily several cent increases that we've been seeing the last several
> weeks will obviously will stop. Right?
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough
And I have some ocean front property in Arizona, and if you'll buy that I'll
throw the Golden Gate in free.
;-)
Glen
--
"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's
just that they know so much that isn't so."
>
> Renata
>
> PS You'll be happy to hear that the powers that be have decided gas
> will peak @ $4.15 in August. Given that we're already at $4.04, the
> daily several cent increases that we've been seeing the last several
> weeks will obviously will stop. Right?
Robatoy wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Frank Boettcher <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:22:16 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >On Jun 10, 10:37 am, "Lee Michaels" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Not necessary. Spitting on the street is sufficient ... go outside,
>> >> > spit, wait for markets to close, purchase some petrol in the
>> >> > morning, report back.
>> >>
>> >> Careful there Swingman, with insights like this, you could get hired
>> >> at CNN as a "financial analyst".
>> >
>> >LOL... or at Fark.com where they are convinced that oil-prices rise
>> >whenever Paris Hilton does something stupid.
>>
>>
>> Well, there certainly seems to be a statistical correlation between
>> those two ongoing event streams.
>>
>> When I was a bit more naive, I would have said that a market could not
>> be manipulated by other than real supply and demand. However, I am
>> old enough to remember the Hunt boy's and what they did for silver.
>>
>> Frank
>
> When you get Olmert or Cheney sabre-rattling on the world stage,
> threatening war, certain commodities do respond.
> Seems that it is always the same people who benefit from breathing fear
> into the people.
>
> All you need to do, is look at the barrels being pumped and the barrels
> being consumed. The increase in consumption is not within a bezillion
> points of what the price increase would indicate.
> Fear mongering, speculation and hoarding. Period.
But consumption here (US) has had to have gone down. I mean damn Hummer
isn't selling anything. That has to compute to at least a certain % of the
market
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
"Mark & Juanita" wrote
> Having read the article, I'm unclear how this is going to be beneficial
to
> those investors. Commodities markets are exactly that, trading in
> commodities, if a trader buys x barrels of December oil, x barrels of oil
> are going to show up at his doorstep in December unless he sells those
> barrels to someone else (doesn't matter if it's an institutional investor
> or a traditional trader). I realize the person in the article made the
> comment that the traders use "calendar shifting" to never take delivery,
> but that calendar shifting also represents a trade of some sort that
pushes
> out the delivery.
> Sure seems like there is a bursting bubble heading our way. Which, if
> it's pension funds doing this is not a good thing.
Once again, follow the tankers:
http://tinyurl.com/5vs857
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Robatoy wrote:
> On Jun 10, 12:39Â pm, evodawg <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Can anyone buy these oil commodities or does it take big blocks of money
>> that only these large Hedge Fund Companies can afford? From what I have
>> read it seems so. I'm not an investor in commodities but I do dabble in
>> NYSE and Penny Stocks. Not that I'm interested either, my thinking this
>> market will take a dive.
>>
>> --
>> "You can lead them to LINUX
>> but you can't make them THINK"
>> Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
>
> If you want your stock to drop, just have me buy some of it. <G>
>
> Just like if you want it to rain, ask me to wash my car. (That's more
> regional phenomena though)
Ain't that the truth!!!
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
On Jun 12, 1:21=A0am, evodawg <[email protected]> wrote:
> evodawg wrote:
>
> Thanks again you idiot Democrats. Guess the Pinheads are of a mindset to
> never let us ever drill another well in the US.
>
DEATH TO NIMBY's!!!... but please, no killing on my land.... messy.
Robatoy wrote:
> This might shed some light on some of your questions: yet another
> theory:
>
> http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/7075
>
> (Wait for the Kool-Aid crowd come running out, swords drawn. *I*
> didn't write that piece, but found it interesting as I tend to look at
> all sides instead of a brain-washed view with blinders on.)
That's pretty much what the PDF article says to. But he goes into more depth
of who is investing into these futures. Pension Funds, University's and
explains what will happen when the bottom drops out. More Enron's.
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
On Jun 8, 8:00=A0pm, evodawg <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
> > In article <b8_2k.859$8q2.197@trnddc02>, evodawg <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
>
> >> Robatoy wrote:
>
> >> > This might shed some light on some of your questions: yet another
> >> > theory:
>
> >> >http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/7075
>
> >> > (Wait for the Kool-Aid crowd come running out, swords drawn. *I*
> >> > didn't write that piece, but found it interesting as I tend to look a=
t
> >> > all sides instead of a brain-washed view with blinders on.)
>
> >> That's pretty much what the PDF article says to. But he goes into more
> >> depth of who is investing into these futures. Pension Funds, University=
's
> >> and explains what will happen when the bottom drops out. More Enron's.
>
> > That .pdf is indeed quite detailed. (printing) Thanks for that.
>
> I agree. After spending the time to read it how could this be fabricated a=
nd
> nonsense. Besides this guy says he's going against the grain and will
> probably be admonished for it.
> --
> "You can lead them to LINUX
> but you can't make them THINK"
> Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
If the prices of used RV's and motor yachts are any indication,
adjustments in consumption are already starting in a big way. The
average consumer might be a bit slow to 'get it', but, like a
supertanker, it takes a big space to turn it around at full speed.
In article <b8_2k.859$8q2.197@trnddc02>, evodawg <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
>
> > This might shed some light on some of your questions: yet another
> > theory:
> >
> > http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/7075
> >
> > (Wait for the Kool-Aid crowd come running out, swords drawn. *I*
> > didn't write that piece, but found it interesting as I tend to look at
> > all sides instead of a brain-washed view with blinders on.)
>
> That's pretty much what the PDF article says to. But he goes into more depth
> of who is investing into these futures. Pension Funds, University's and
> explains what will happen when the bottom drops out. More Enron's.
That .pdf is indeed quite detailed. (printing) Thanks for that.
On Jun 11, 12:42=A0am, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
> dpb wrote:
> > evodawg wrote:
> > ...
> >> But consumption here (US) has had to have gone down. =A0...
>
> > A small percentage in last month or two from otherwise historic high
> > levels leaving at overall high rates as compared to (say) 10 yr ago or
> > so...
>
> > --
>
> =A0 Yet, since 1985, domestic production has gone down 40% while consumpti=
on
> has gone up 30%. =A0It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that =
if
> we were to take the restraints off in terms of being able to drill in the
> US and build refineries, we could solve a significant amount of our
> problem.
>
Just off-shore alone would be a big help.
Swingman wrote:
>
> "Mark & Juanita" wrote
>
>> Having read the article, I'm unclear how this is going to be beneficial
> to
>> those investors. Commodities markets are exactly that, trading in
>> commodities, if a trader buys x barrels of December oil, x barrels of oil
>> are going to show up at his doorstep in December unless he sells those
>> barrels to someone else (doesn't matter if it's an institutional investor
>> or a traditional trader). I realize the person in the article made the
>> comment that the traders use "calendar shifting" to never take delivery,
>> but that calendar shifting also represents a trade of some sort that
> pushes
>> out the delivery.
>
>> Sure seems like there is a bursting bubble heading our way. Which, if
>> it's pension funds doing this is not a good thing.
>
> Once again, follow the tankers:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/5vs857
>
>
OK, I get that is how this could happen. But why would institutional
investors do that? How does it provide a path to them reaping great
rewards? There has to be a logic behind the actions. Stockpiling
commodities is just plain dumb unless you believe production will go down
(bad harvest, loss of use of pumps, etc). Enron was a fraudulent company
that was built on a house of cards, it was not a typical business, it was
doing things it knew were unsustainable (shell companies and all), so it's
model doesn't seem to apply to this situation. This is not typical
behavior for an investment house that is buying and selling real ownership
in real businesses. So, what is the motivation? The pat answer of "lots
of money" doesn't make sense, institutional investment houses live and die
by their reputations -- it is not their money that they are investing and
their continued long-term financial well being is dependent upon the influx
of new capital. Doing something like this would permanently destroy the
ability of any of those houses that were participants in this bubble. I
don't get it, it doesn't make sense.
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:22:16 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Jun 10, 10:37 am, "Lee Michaels" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>>
>>
>> > Not necessary. Spitting on the street is sufficient ... go outside, spit,
>> > wait for markets to close, purchase some petrol in the morning, report
>> > back.
>>
>> Careful there Swingman, with insights like this, you could get hired at CNN
>> as a "financial analyst".
>
>LOL... or at Fark.com where they are convinced that oil-prices rise
>whenever Paris Hilton does something stupid.
Well, there certainly seems to be a statistical correlation between
those two ongoing event streams.
When I was a bit more naive, I would have said that a market could not
be manipulated by other than real supply and demand. However, I am
old enough to remember the Hunt boy's and what they did for silver.
Frank
Robatoy wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> [snipped for brevity]
>
>> Stockpiling
>> commodities is just plain dumb unless you believe production will
>> go
>> down (bad harvest, loss of use of pumps, etc).
>
> The second largest OPEC member, if memory serves me, is Iran.
> The threat of war from those opposed to the nuclear ambitions of
> Iran,
> can be enough for the speculators to take a gamble.
> Just a guess.
Iran is the second largest but they represent a little more than 10
percent of the OPEC total and OPEC is only about a third of the total
production of oil.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Larry Blanchard wrote:
...
> Agreed. A lot of the current price is based on speculation and fear that
> wars will disrupt the supply. If there was twice the supply, the
> speculators and hoarders would still drive up the price.
If there were twice the supply (and particularly if that were a more
diverse and/or stable supply (like domestic maybe?)), the magnitude
effect of the threats would be far diminished, however...
--
evodawg wrote:
> ok, lately I've been running into some interesting Reports and Video. I'm
> not sure how true these are or if they might be in the classification of
> Conspiracy Theory's. But the PDF report was generated from a Report to
> Congress as is the Testimony of Michael W. Masters Managing Member /
> Portfolio Manager Masters Capital Management, LLC
>
> Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs
> United States Senate
> May 20,
>
> I think it's worth checking out:
> http://hsgac.senate.gov/public/_files/052008Masters.pdf
>
Having read the article, I'm unclear how this is going to be beneficial to
those investors. Commodities markets are exactly that, trading in
commodities, if a trader buys x barrels of December oil, x barrels of oil
are going to show up at his doorstep in December unless he sells those
barrels to someone else (doesn't matter if it's an institutional investor
or a traditional trader). I realize the person in the article made the
comment that the traders use "calendar shifting" to never take delivery,
but that calendar shifting also represents a trade of some sort that pushes
out the delivery. This doesn't seem like a sustainable position -- I
certainly hope my pension funds aren't engaging in this kind of thing.
Eventually, the commodities, the futures, and the market will catch up with
one another -- doesn't matter if institutions hold the commodities or not,
at some point, they have to be sold because they become real goods after
harvest or being pumped from the ground -- it's got to go somewhere; i.e,
it's no longer paper -- it's x barrels of oil or y bushels of wheat -- all
headed to the commodity trader's place of business unless otherwise
directed. If there is too much of the commodity at that time, the price
will come down. They have a very strong bargaining position -- the
commodity traders may "own" the commodity for which the traders paid a high
price and want to get that price back; however, they have nowhere to go
with that commodity, they can't take delivery, the buyer is the person who
has the facilities and ability to use the commodity, since most of those
buyers are similarly large corporations, the investors have a limited base
to whom they can sell.
Sure seems like there is a bursting bubble heading our way. Which, if
it's pension funds doing this is not a good thing.
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough
"Robatoy" wrote
> In article > Mark & Juanita wrote:
>
> [snipped for brevity]
>
> > Stockpiling
> > commodities is just plain dumb unless you believe production will go
down
> > (bad harvest, loss of use of pumps, etc).
>
> The second largest OPEC member, if memory serves me, is Iran.
> The threat of war from those opposed to the nuclear ambitions of Iran,
> can be enough for the speculators to take a gamble.
> Just a guess.
Not necessary. Spitting on the street is sufficient ... go outside, spit,
wait for markets to close, purchase some petrol in the morning, report back.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Mark & Juanita wrote:
> Sure seems like there is a bursting bubble heading our way. Which, if
> it's pension funds doing this is not a good thing.
If I were you I know what I would do. This is Enron all over again and guess
who will be paying again, the tax payer and who is involved directly or
indirectly.
Good Luck, hang on to your ass and don't get caught bent over.
Can we just have a section on the ballet "None of the Above".
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> Not necessary. Spitting on the street is sufficient ... go outside, spit,
> wait for markets to close, purchase some petrol in the morning, report
> back.
>
Careful there Swingman, with insights like this, you could get hired at CNN
as a "financial analyst".
Mark & Juanita wrote:
> evodawg wrote:
>
>> ok, lately I've been running into some interesting Reports and Video. I'm
>> not sure how true these are or if they might be in the classification of
>> Conspiracy Theory's. But the PDF report was generated from a Report to
>> Congress as is the Testimony of Michael W. Masters Managing Member /
>> Portfolio Manager Masters Capital Management, LLC
>>
>> Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs
>> United States Senate
>> May 20,
>>
>> I think it's worth checking out:
>> http://hsgac.senate.gov/public/_files/052008Masters.pdf
>>
>
> Having read the article, I'm unclear how this is going to be beneficial to
> those investors. Commodities markets are exactly that, trading in
> commodities, if a trader buys x barrels of December oil, x barrels of oil
> are going to show up at his doorstep in December unless he sells those
> barrels to someone else (doesn't matter if it's an institutional investor
> or a traditional trader). I realize the person in the article made the
> comment that the traders use "calendar shifting" to never take delivery,
> but that calendar shifting also represents a trade of some sort that pushes
> out the delivery. This doesn't seem like a sustainable position -- I
> certainly hope my pension funds aren't engaging in this kind of thing.
> Eventually, the commodities, the futures, and the market will catch up with
> one another -- doesn't matter if institutions hold the commodities or not,
> at some point, they have to be sold because they become real goods after
> harvest or being pumped from the ground -- it's got to go somewhere; i.e,
> it's no longer paper -- it's x barrels of oil or y bushels of wheat -- all
> headed to the commodity trader's place of business unless otherwise
> directed. If there is too much of the commodity at that time, the price
> will come down. They have a very strong bargaining position -- the
> commodity traders may "own" the commodity for which the traders paid a high
> price and want to get that price back; however, they have nowhere to go
> with that commodity, they can't take delivery, the buyer is the person who
> has the facilities and ability to use the commodity, since most of those
> buyers are similarly large corporations, the investors have a limited base
> to whom they can sell.
>
> Sure seems like there is a bursting bubble heading our way. Which, if
> it's pension funds doing this is not a good thing.
>
>
> You're right. this sounds like the gold situation of the late 70's and
early 80's. It was strictly a money grab on the market. Unfortunately
this one affects all of us and not just the speculators. Hopefully it
will come to an end soon.
"evodawg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:97y3k.6924$kW2.5223@trnddc01...
>
> Can anyone buy these oil commodities or does it take big blocks of money
> that only these large Hedge Fund Companies can afford? From what I have
> read it seems so. I'm not an investor in commodities but I do dabble in
> NYSE and Penny Stocks. Not that I'm interested either, my thinking this
> market will take a dive.
>
If you have an account, you can trade oil futures. But there are many
different types of contracts issued by different exchanges. And since most
folks don't want to pay lots extra for data feeds, etc, they limit
themselves to one or two exchanges. And if those exchanges don't have oil
futures, they don't trade them.
Interestingly enough, ethonal is now considred an agricultural commodity
now.
Oil is considered an energy commodity and is traded as both crude and
refined products along with natural gas and coal.
evodawg wrote:
Thanks again you idiot Democrats. Guess the Pinheads are of a mindset to
never let us ever drill another well in the US.
House Subcommittee Rejects Plan to Open U.S. Waters to More Oil Exploration
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,365627,00.html
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 12:34:00 -0400, Robatoy wrote:
> All you need to do, is look at the barrels being pumped and the barrels
> being consumed. The increase in consumption is not within a bezillion
> points of what the price increase would indicate.
> Fear mongering, speculation and hoarding. Period.
Whatever the outcome, you can bet that Bush's oil buddies in Texas and his
friends in the Saudi royal family will come out with lots of money.
How? One possibility is discussed at:
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/oil/2006/0626door.htm
On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 08:55:01 -0400, Renata wrote:
> There doesn't appear to be a dramatic shortage of oil that is driving
> up the price. There are apparently tankers sitting off coasts filled
> w/oil. Nor has demand increased in proportion to the price
> (quintupling in relatively short time).
>
> Drilling won't solve the immediate situation.
Agreed. A lot of the current price is based on speculation and fear that
wars will disrupt the supply. If there was twice the supply, the
speculators and hoarders would still drive up the price.
Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
> OK, I get that is how this could happen. But why would institutional
>investors do that? How does it provide a path to them reaping great
>rewards? There has to be a logic behind the actions. Stockpiling
>commodities is just plain dumb unless you believe production will go down
>(bad harvest, loss of use of pumps, etc).
Actually, all you need to believe is that the price is going to go up. Since
that is what has been happening for the last few years, it is not an
unreasonable belief.
There is clearly a large speculative component in the current oil price. This
is good news, because all bubbles burst sooner or later. When that happens, the
price will fall far faster than if the price run up was purely supply-demand
driven.
When oil was $50 a barrel and people were shouting the sky was falling, one
commentator I respect said "$100 oil is not the problem, it is the solution". It
will cut consumption and spur development of alternatives. In the meantime,
that noise you hear is my wallet screaming in pain.
-- Doug
Robatoy wrote:
> In article <b8_2k.859$8q2.197@trnddc02>, evodawg <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Robatoy wrote:
>>
>> > This might shed some light on some of your questions: yet another
>> > theory:
>> >
>> > http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/7075
>> >
>> > (Wait for the Kool-Aid crowd come running out, swords drawn. *I*
>> > didn't write that piece, but found it interesting as I tend to look at
>> > all sides instead of a brain-washed view with blinders on.)
>>
>> That's pretty much what the PDF article says to. But he goes into more
>> depth of who is investing into these futures. Pension Funds, University's
>> and explains what will happen when the bottom drops out. More Enron's.
>
> That .pdf is indeed quite detailed. (printing) Thanks for that.
I agree. After spending the time to read it how could this be fabricated and
nonsense. Besides this guy says he's going against the grain and will
probably be admonished for it.
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
dpb wrote:
> evodawg wrote:
> ...
>> But consumption here (US) has had to have gone down. ...
>
> A small percentage in last month or two from otherwise historic high
> levels leaving at overall high rates as compared to (say) 10 yr ago or
> so...
>
> --
Yet, since 1985, domestic production has gone down 40% while consumption
has gone up 30%. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if
we were to take the restraints off in terms of being able to drill in the
US and build refineries, we could solve a significant amount of our
problem.
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough
"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> When I was a bit more naive, I would have said that a market could not
> be manipulated by other than real supply and demand. However, I am
> old enough to remember the Hunt boy's and what they did for silver.
>
The Hunt brothers were extremely naive if they thought they could get away
with hijacking the silver market. All the exchnges did was increase the
margin requirements, and the Hunt brothers ran out of money. All commodity
and future contracts are highly leveraged. A big enough change in margin
requirements will wipe out almost anybody.
What did they lose? A billion or two? It is like the classic case of the
sophisticated criminal getting away with numerous crimes and nobody knowing
who they are or how they did it. But greed forces them to push the envelope
and they get caught. The Hunt Brothers made a huge amount of money. But
they couldn't stop. Instead of taking their profits and ivesting them
elsewhere, they went for broke. And like any compulsive gambler who bets it
all, they lost. They could have got out sooner and still made billions.
The silver market is an interesting market anyway. All the conspiracy freaks
are fixated on the silver markets. And there is a lot of institutional hank
panky going on in the silver market. One of the latest developments is that
Morgan Stanley has been charging storage and service fees for silver
purchased through them. And they never bought the silver. They used the
money interest free and charged their customers for non existant silver!
There was a class action suit recently from 22,000 customers over this
practice.
Morgan Stanley has to pay out a few million bucks and promises to be good
boys in the future. But nobody goes to jail and it is doubtful if anybody
will get fired. And this is a common practice with anybody who sells silver
certificates.
In article <[email protected]>,
Frank Boettcher <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:22:16 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >On Jun 10, 10:37 am, "Lee Michaels" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > Not necessary. Spitting on the street is sufficient ... go outside, spit,
> >> > wait for markets to close, purchase some petrol in the morning, report
> >> > back.
> >>
> >> Careful there Swingman, with insights like this, you could get hired at CNN
> >> as a "financial analyst".
> >
> >LOL... or at Fark.com where they are convinced that oil-prices rise
> >whenever Paris Hilton does something stupid.
>
>
> Well, there certainly seems to be a statistical correlation between
> those two ongoing event streams.
>
> When I was a bit more naive, I would have said that a market could not
> be manipulated by other than real supply and demand. However, I am
> old enough to remember the Hunt boy's and what they did for silver.
>
> Frank
When you get Olmert or Cheney sabre-rattling on the world stage,
threatening war, certain commodities do respond.
Seems that it is always the same people who benefit from breathing fear
into the people.
All you need to do, is look at the barrels being pumped and the barrels
being consumed. The increase in consumption is not within a bezillion
points of what the price increase would indicate.
Fear mongering, speculation and hoarding. Period.
And Paris Hilton, of course.
Maybe a paparazzi shot of Brittany's cooter?
<G>
In article <[email protected]>,
Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
[snipped for brevity]
> Stockpiling
> commodities is just plain dumb unless you believe production will go down
> (bad harvest, loss of use of pumps, etc).
The second largest OPEC member, if memory serves me, is Iran.
The threat of war from those opposed to the nuclear ambitions of Iran,
can be enough for the speculators to take a gamble.
Just a guess.
r