Downsizing

On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:20:53 AM UTC-4, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 9/18/2019 7:35 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:> On 9/18/2019 7:14 AM, Jack wrote:
> >> On 9/17/2019 11:49 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> >>
> >>> I choose a heavy stable base (100+ lbs maybe a lot more), because I am
> >>> not the only person in the shop sometimes.
> >>
> >> Not exactly a bench grinder, but, you might enjoy this guys build.
> >> He's a machinist with a "to die for shop", and skills to match. It's a
> >> 5 part series, but his channel has lots of really nice shop built
> >> tools. This one fits your "maybe a lot more" thinking:-)
> >>
> >>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXzoM-WXWRw&list=PLkfgL2SKCY4f-LSxB7ykXtdsrlhc1_Bde
>
> >>
> >>
> >> or more simply:
> >>
> >> https://tinyurl.com/y5kds98z
> >
> >
>
> P.S. I'd probably have some of the bigger old iron he has or similar
> except when I built my shop its was only intend to be a warehouse for my
> contracting business. I only ran a 100 AMP drop to the "warehouse" for
> light, a few outlets, and a small air conditioner for the office. I
> figured that was overkill. Boy was I wrong.
>
> When I start getting multiple machines going I start adding up my
> electrical usage in my head to make sure I'm not going to trip the main
> if the office air conditioner or the air compressor comes on (both draw
> about the same peak on start up.) There was once or twice when I heard
> a couple machines load up at once that I thought to myself, "I'm sure
> glad I am the only one with a remote for the overhead doors."
>
> I have turned down some pretty impressive equipment that would have been
> free except for the cost to transport it because if I ran it I'd have to
> turn off everything else in the shop. LOL.

Do you at least have the lights on their own breaker? It really sucks when
a tool plunges the whole shop into darkness if it trips the breaker.

On 9/23/2019 3:14 PM, Ivan Vegvary wrote:
> Hey everybody, let's all agree that it's 'vise' and not 'vice' in reference to tools.

Is owning too many tools a vice?
(I can hear it now: "You can't have too many tools".)

Hey everybody, let's all agree that it's 'vise' and not 'vice' in reference to tools.

Bob La Londe <[email protected]> on Sat, 14 Sep 2019 08:13:11 -0700
typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>
>If I did single projects from start to finish I could see the utility in
>that. Now admittedly I do mostly metal working, but mine is a working
>shop. At any given time I have 20 projects of my own and 30-40 customer
>jobs on the projects board. Every machine I use has to be accessible
>right now or it slows me down.

The situation you are in is different than the situation he is in.
Hobbyists rarely find themselves needing to be ultra efficient in
space and tool usage. As I said while watching the mill make the
prototype: "If I was going into production, I'd do it differently."*
There are a number of skills I would like to have, which I could
no doubt "pick up" if I did them forty hours a week. But I do not
have those 40 hours, so dedicating space to have the drafting /
lettering table, lathe/mill, turning machine, book binding frame,
plough plane and press, etc, etc, and so on, isn't a flying option.
And that is before I get to the non-material crafts. (Anyone know
of a "teach yourself to write Slavonic" textbook/ course?)

tschus
pyotr

*I recall an essay from the early 1990's: the author was a
professional furniture maker, who wrote that the finest furniture was
made by his neighbor, the accountant. Because _he_ did not have to
sell something to make the rent, he could spend all the time needed to
make it "perfect". From choosing the wood, to the final finishing.
I'm with him, there are a lot of things I've made which never got
"properly finished" because I needed something now, not next week. But
I digress.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 5:18:33 PM UTC-4, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 9/15/2019 6:52 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:> On Friday, September 13, 2019
> at 5:08:11 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
> >
> > ...snip...
> >
> >>
> >> Think multiple bases for different pieces of equipment. While these are
> >> not large pieces, I my vice, grinder, hand miter box, bolted to a 2 X.
> >> When I need the vice I pull it off the shelf and clamp it to my
> >> workbench.
> >
> > ...snip...
> >
> > You talked me into it. I've been trying to decide how to get my vice
> out of
> > the way, so I just unbolted it from the workbench and bolted it to a
> portable
> > base.
>
>
> I can't imagine putting my bench vise on a portable stand unless it had
> something like a semi-truck wheel filled with concrete for the bottom
> base part.

I think you have a different idea of a "mobile base" than I meant.

By mobile base, I meant a piece of 6/4 poplar large enough to bolt the vise to with about 6
inches on either side for clamps. Once it's clamped to the workbench, it's no less sturdy than
it was when it was bolted to the workbench. Only now it's "mobile" in that I can clamp it
anywhere I want, including the picnic table or (shhhh) the dining room table. ;-)

Bob La Londe <[email protected]> on Mon, 16 Sep 2019 09:54:41 -0700
typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>On 9/16/2019 9:15 AM, pyotr filipivich wrote:> Bob La Londe
><[email protected]> on Sat, 14 Sep 2019 08:13:11 -0700
> > typed in rec.woodworking the following:
> >>
> >> If I did single projects from start to finish I could see the utility in
> >> that. Now admittedly I do mostly metal working, but mine is a working
> >> shop. At any given time I have 20 projects of my own and 30-40 customer
> >> jobs on the projects board. Every machine I use has to be accessible
> >> right now or it slows me down.
> >
> > The situation you are in is different than the situation he is in.
> > Hobbyists rarely find themselves needing to be ultra efficient in
> > space and tool usage. As I said while watching the mill make the
> > prototype: "If I was going into production, I'd do it differently."*
> > There are a number of skills I would like to have, which I could
> > no doubt "pick up" if I did them forty hours a week. But I do not
> > have those 40 hours, so dedicating space to have the drafting /
> > lettering table, lathe/mill, turning machine, book binding frame,
> > plough plane and press, etc, etc, and so on, isn't a flying option.
> > And that is before I get to the non-material crafts. (Anyone know
> > of a "teach yourself to write Slavonic" textbook/ course?)
> >
> > tschus
> > pyotr
> >
> > *I recall an essay from the early 1990's: the author was a
> > professional furniture maker, who wrote that the finest furniture was
> > made by his neighbor, the accountant. Because _he_ did not have to
> > sell something to make the rent, he could spend all the time needed to
> > make it "perfect". From choosing the wood, to the final finishing.
> > I'm with him, there are a lot of things I've made which never got
> > "properly finished" because I needed something now, not next week. But
> > I digress.
> >
>
>Pyotr,
>
>I do not disagree. I just wanted to make sure that he or other readers
>considered all the connotations of making a decision like this. Time is
>a valuable commodity for everybody. A RAS or a table saw are capable of
>most of the same tasks including ripping. Both a RAS and a table saw
>really need an out feed table to do long rip cuts. The only thing I can
>think of I can't do on a table saw that I can do with a RAS is that some
>RAS' are setup so that you can also use them for routing. That's a
>non-issue for me because I have added a cast iron leaf to my table saw
>that turns it into a router table.
>
>I actually rarely use either the RAS or the table saw for ripping. When
>I buy a stack of sheet goods I also buy a sheet of 2" styrofoam to use
>as a backer, and use my worm drive circular saw with an attached rip
>fence. I don't often have to rip long pieces of other types of board
>stock. (can't remember having done it in decades)
>
>Anyway, I also like to hunt, fish, ride motorcycles, and drive my Jeep
>on mountain and desert trails. If I am not efficient in my shop I never
>have time to do those things.

Excellent point.

>While I am self admittedly an
>argumentative and abrasive individual I also like to take some time to
>just sit around with friends and visit. Yes. I actually have friends.
>LOL. Not many, but I value the time I spend with them.
>
>TIME is everybody's most valuable commodity over a lifetime.
>
>The other side of this is that once you sell a tool or piece of
>machinery you will certainly need it and wish you still had it. LOL.
>
>I've spent years deciding whether or not to sell my RAS. Its for sale
>now.

I'd love to have one, but "where would I put it?" Oh yeah,and
"how would I afford it?"


--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 23:10:31 -0400, J. Clarke
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 22:02:24 -0400, Clare Snyder <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:40:16 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:20:53 AM UTC-4, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>>> On 9/18/2019 7:35 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:> On 9/18/2019 7:14 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>> >> On 9/17/2019 11:49 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> I choose a heavy stable base (100+ lbs maybe a lot more), because I am
>>>> >>> not the only person in the shop sometimes.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Not exactly a bench grinder, but, you might enjoy this guys build.
>>>> >> He's a machinist with a "to die for shop", and skills to match. It's a
>>>> >> 5 part series, but his channel has lots of really nice shop built
>>>> >> tools. This one fits your "maybe a lot more" thinking:-)
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXzoM-WXWRw&list=PLkfgL2SKCY4f-LSxB7ykXtdsrlhc1_Bde
>>>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> or more simply:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> https://tinyurl.com/y5kds98z
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> P.S. I'd probably have some of the bigger old iron he has or similar
>>>> except when I built my shop its was only intend to be a warehouse for my
>>>> contracting business. I only ran a 100 AMP drop to the "warehouse" for
>>>> light, a few outlets, and a small air conditioner for the office. I
>>>> figured that was overkill. Boy was I wrong.
>>>>
>>>> When I start getting multiple machines going I start adding up my
>>>> electrical usage in my head to make sure I'm not going to trip the main
>>>> if the office air conditioner or the air compressor comes on (both draw
>>>> about the same peak on start up.) There was once or twice when I heard
>>>> a couple machines load up at once that I thought to myself, "I'm sure
>>>> glad I am the only one with a remote for the overhead doors."
>>>>
>>>> I have turned down some pretty impressive equipment that would have been
>>>> free except for the cost to transport it because if I ran it I'd have to
>>>> turn off everything else in the shop. LOL.
>>>
>>>Do you at least have the lights on their own breaker? It really sucks when
>>>a tool plunges the whole shop into darkness if it trips the breaker.
>> WShen it kicks the main breaker having the lights on their own
>>doesn't help unless they are running on a battery - - - -
>
>If it kicks the main breaker instead of the branch breaker you really
>need to get an electrician to look at the wiring because there's
>something wrong.
Not at all. If each branch breaker is within it's limits, but the
total of all the branches excedes the capacity of the main, the main
WILL trip - as it is designed to do.

On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 10:54:21 AM UTC-5, Puckdropper wrote:
> I don't have as much shop space any more, as my shop now has to share
> duties with a garage.
>=20
> So between a bandsaw, jointer, planer, RAS, table saw, and circular saw,
> what tools can be combined to cover the basic operations we need to do?=
=20
> Crosscut, rip, and maybe resaw. I'm not sure I trust my RAS to rip,
> it's missing important pieces like the anti-kickback pawls.
>=20
> Puckdropper

Back to the original question asked. Besides simply getting rid of some of=
your tools, AND adding mobility to most of them so you can store them in a=
tight group out of the center of the shop when not in use. Also consider =
changing your tools and how you use them. For instance. The European meth=
od. Europeans use combination machines combining saw/shaper/router table/j=
ointer/planer. Or saw/shaper/router. And planer/jointer. And Europeans a=
re big into those track saws which allow you to rip and kind of cross cut w=
ithout a workbench or table saw. The Festool Domino makes slip tenons easi=
ly anywhere you want. Without the need for saws to cut tenons, drill press=
es for mortises, router tables for mortise and tenon. Change your tools to=
do everything differently and in less space. I am NOT saying this is chea=
p or easy.

>>>>
>>>> If there is a seniors woodworking center available - you might
>>>> consider a membership - for the big professional shop machines -
>>>> with big professional dust collection -
>>>> - and concentrate on nice little "hand tools" for home ..
>>>> ie: router table ; table top belt sander < sharpener ! >
>>>> John T.
>>>
>You a member over off Sydney Street?(old twin city automoitive
>building) I was when they were over on Roger for a few years. Thinking
>about re-joining
>

Wilmot Seniors - in Baden - a few years ago -
nice place & nice folks - more than just woodworking -
metal shop & other crafters ; a Christmas fundraising sale . .

https://wilmotseniorsworkshop.weebly.com/

https://www.facebook.com/wilmotseniorsworkshop/

John T.

On Sunday, September 15, 2019 at 7:46:52 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Sep 2019 15:54:17 GMT, Puckdropper <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >I don't have as much shop space any more, as my shop now has to share
> >duties with a garage.
> >So between a bandsaw, jointer, planer, RAS, table saw, and circular saw,
> >what tools can be combined to cover the basic operations we need to do?
> >Crosscut, rip, and maybe resaw. I'm not sure I trust my RAS to rip,
> >it's missing important pieces like the anti-kickback pawls.
> >Puckdropper
> >
>
>
> .. not in answer to your question - but f w i w :
> A long time ago, and for ~ 10 years, my Craftsman 10 inch
> radial arm saw was the only shop machine I owned.
> I had no problem ripping full 2 inch softwood and hardwood.
> .. no anti kickback - just a lot of care & consideration when
> pushng it through. and a decent blade.
> I'm not saying that it's a good choice for you to keep -
> and it's not a good choice for ripping - but it can be done.
>
> circular saw ? not sure why that is in your list of shop machines ?
>
> If there is a seniors woodworking center available - you might
> consider a membership - for the big professional shop machines -
> with big professional dust collection -
> - and concentrate on nice little "hand tools" for home ..
> ie: router table ; table top belt sander < sharpener ! >
> John T.

Why does it have to be a *seniors* woodworking center?

On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 10:54:21 AM UTC-5, Puckdropper wrote:
> I don't have as much shop space any more, as my shop now has to share
> duties with a garage.
>=20
> So between a bandsaw, jointer, planer, RAS, table saw, and circular saw,
> what tools can be combined to cover the basic operations we need to do?=
=20
> Crosscut, rip, and maybe resaw. I'm not sure I trust my RAS to rip,
> it's missing important pieces like the anti-kickback pawls.
>=20
> Puckdropper

If you are not comfortable with the RAS, then if you are to get rid of one,=
then get rid of the RAS.

I like all my tools, despite not using some of them often (enough?). Ther=
e are several elements of this discussion that apply to my shop, though I h=
ave a relatively large shop - 24X30 main area, 11x24 garage area- for a hob=
byist.

Recently, I find I need to consolidate or reduce some aspect of some non-po=
wer tool items. I once had my slow grinder mounted on 2X stock, clamped i=
n place when needed. I later mounted it on a rolling cabinet, in the garag=
e. With making space for the big jointer, I need to get rid of the cabine=
t. Similarly, I have an anvil on a rolling base. Both of these have foot=
print space I'd like to remove or reduce.

I could cite further my-shop examples related to this discussion. Rather =
than get rid of tools, I need to get rid of some of my lumber cache.... ei=
ther make more projects or donate to someone who needs a bit of lumber. L=
ately, I've been posting on Craigslist, giving small caches of lumber to fo=
lks.

As stated, you know what's best for your scenario. Just use your best judg=
ement.

Sonny

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:40:16 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:20:53 AM UTC-4, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> On 9/18/2019 7:35 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:> On 9/18/2019 7:14 AM, Jack wrote:
>> >> On 9/17/2019 11:49 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> I choose a heavy stable base (100+ lbs maybe a lot more), because I am
>> >>> not the only person in the shop sometimes.
>> >>
>> >> Not exactly a bench grinder, but, you might enjoy this guys build.
>> >> He's a machinist with a "to die for shop", and skills to match. It's a
>> >> 5 part series, but his channel has lots of really nice shop built
>> >> tools. This one fits your "maybe a lot more" thinking:-)
>> >>
>> >>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXzoM-WXWRw&list=PLkfgL2SKCY4f-LSxB7ykXtdsrlhc1_Bde
>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> or more simply:
>> >>
>> >> https://tinyurl.com/y5kds98z
>> >
>> >
>>
>> P.S. I'd probably have some of the bigger old iron he has or similar
>> except when I built my shop its was only intend to be a warehouse for my
>> contracting business. I only ran a 100 AMP drop to the "warehouse" for
>> light, a few outlets, and a small air conditioner for the office. I
>> figured that was overkill. Boy was I wrong.
>>
>> When I start getting multiple machines going I start adding up my
>> electrical usage in my head to make sure I'm not going to trip the main
>> if the office air conditioner or the air compressor comes on (both draw
>> about the same peak on start up.) There was once or twice when I heard
>> a couple machines load up at once that I thought to myself, "I'm sure
>> glad I am the only one with a remote for the overhead doors."
>>
>> I have turned down some pretty impressive equipment that would have been
>> free except for the cost to transport it because if I ran it I'd have to
>> turn off everything else in the shop. LOL.
>
>Do you at least have the lights on their own breaker? It really sucks when
>a tool plunges the whole shop into darkness if it trips the breaker.
WShen it kicks the main breaker having the lights on their own
doesn't help unless they are running on a battery - - - -

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 22:10:42 -0500, Unquestionably Confused
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On 9/18/2019 9:02 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:40:16 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:20:53 AM UTC-4, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>>> On 9/18/2019 7:35 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:> On 9/18/2019 7:14 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>> >> On 9/17/2019 11:49 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>>
>
>[SNIP]
>
>>>> I have turned down some pretty impressive equipment that would have been
>>>> free except for the cost to transport it because if I ran it I'd have to
>>>> turn off everything else in the shop. LOL.
>>>
>>> Do you at least have the lights on their own breaker? It really sucks when
>>> a tool plunges the whole shop into darkness if it trips the breaker.
>> WShen it kicks the main breaker having the lights on their own
>> doesn't help unless they are running on a battery - - - -
>
>That would be true if there weren't any circuits in the panel, just the
>100 amp breaker. If the power tool was on, say, a 60amp circuit
>breaker, wouldn't the lights remain on assuming a separate 20amp circuit?
His problem is when the 40 amp cabinet saw is running, with1,400
watts of shop lights and a 20 amp dust collector when both the air
conditioner and beer fridge decide to start at the same time and it
kicks the MAIN breaker in his shop sub-panel. Or the thickness planer,
drum sander, and jointer are all running along with the dust collector
and air conditioner - all on different properly sized circuits and he
decides to start the 2Hp router - you know - the old one without
soft-start that needs to be on a 20 amp breaker because it kicks a 15
every time it starts. POP goes the MAIN breaker. (mabee a few other
"power suckers" running at the same time)

Having the ONLY garage door opener means SHMBO doesn't open the garage
door at a critical point in the power consumption curve - - - -

[email protected] wrote:

> .. not in answer to your question - but f w i w :
> A long time ago, and for ~ 10 years, my Craftsman 10 inch
> radial arm saw was the only shop machine I owned.
> I had no problem ripping full 2 inch softwood and hardwood.
> .. no anti kickback - just a lot of care & consideration when
> pushng it through. and a decent blade.
> I'm not saying that it's a good choice for you to keep -
> and it's not a good choice for ripping - but it can be done.

Having just the RAS out there means less stuff to work around when it
comes time to turn the garage into a nice working space. Learning how
to rip on the RAS safely will help keep the stuff in there to a minimum.

I'm hoping not to need to do a lot of ripping, but I know projects will
require it. Right now, getting a few home projects done is priority
number one. The garage will be done later.

>
> circular saw ? not sure why that is in your list of shop machines ?

Most tools get used less when a similar stationary tool is purchased.
Circular saws get used more.

> If there is a seniors woodworking center available - you might
> consider a membership - for the big professional shop machines -
> with big professional dust collection -
> - and concentrate on nice little "hand tools" for home ..
> ie: router table ; table top belt sander < sharpener ! >
> John T.
>

I wonder if there's a usable space around here? We've got a big
college, so maybe? It's worth a look.

Puckdropper

On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 4:18:33 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:
> I do have a couple bench grinders mounted on a stand that=20
> has a pickup truck wheel filled with concrete for a base. It works=20
> pretty good.

Not sure why you think so much weight is necessary for a bench grinder. I =
have two bench grinders on Harbor Freight metal stands. The grinders are m=
ounted on wood blocks bolted to the top of the stands. Stand weighs 5 poun=
ds. Each grinder weighs 25 to 50 pounds. They work perfectly fine for gri=
nding metal. When I use a bench grinder I let the 1800 or 3600 rpm spinnin=
g wheels take the metal off. I don't use all my muscle and weight to force=
the metal into the wheel. Not necessary. The spinning wheels grind the m=
etal off more than fast enough. And help to keep the metal cooler, which i=
s important.

Unquestionably Confused <[email protected]> writes:
>On 9/13/2019 10:54 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
>> I don't have as much shop space any more, as my shop now has to share
>> duties with a garage.
>>
>> So between a bandsaw, jointer, planer, RAS, table saw, and circular saw,
>> what tools can be combined to cover the basic operations we need to do?
>> Crosscut, rip, and maybe resaw. I'm not sure I trust my RAS to rip,
>> it's missing important pieces like the anti-kickback pawls.
>
>I tend to agree with what Bob posted with regard to the pecking order of
>your tool disposal.

>
>OTOH, if you really like your RAS, you have two options if you wish to
>keep it. First, obviously, is to find the missing parts to re-enable
>the anti-kickback mechanism. The second is to Jerry-rig an auxiliary
>fence, used solely for ripping operations on the RAS and equip it with
>these anti-kickback rollers. Board Buddies by trade name.

Or just use the RAS for cross cutting panels, for which it is an excellent tool.

Keep the TS (or use the bandsaw) for ripping.

Leon wrote:

> On 9/13/2019 10:54 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
>> I don't have as much shop space any more, as my shop now has to share
>> duties with a garage.
>>
>> So between a bandsaw, jointer, planer, RAS, table saw, and circular saw,
>> what tools can be combined to cover the basic operations we need to do?
>> Crosscut, rip, and maybe resaw. I'm not sure I trust my RAS to rip,
>> it's missing important pieces like the anti-kickback pawls.
>>
>> Puckdropper
>>
>
>
> If everything is on mobile bases you may not need to scale down.
> I used to have a washer and dry er, my wife's car, water heater,
> compressor, large TS, Large BS, jointer, router table, dust collector,
> 15" planer, 22-44 Drum sander, Oscillating spindle sander, 12"Disk
> sander, 2 full sized tool chests, Drill Press, Trash bin, Lathe, Large
> fire proof 4 drawer file cabinet and a lot of Festool stuff. Oh and a
> 5'long work bench. Lots of cabinets and drawers. That was in a two car
> garage.

Good point. Right now, I've got the tools stored where they've been
safe for many years so I'm just trying to keep things out of the garage
in the short term so I can make it a nice space to work. The fewer
things out there, the better!

Puckdropper

DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> writes:
>On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 5:18:33 PM UTC-4, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> On 9/15/2019 6:52 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:> On Friday, September 13, 2019
>> at 5:08:11 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:

>>
>> I can't imagine putting my bench vise on a portable stand unless it had
>> something like a semi-truck wheel filled with concrete for the bottom
>> base part.
>
>I think you have a different idea of a "mobile base" than I meant.
>
>By mobile base, I meant a piece of 6/4 poplar large enough to bolt the vise to with about 6
>inches on either side for clamps. Once it's clamped to the workbench, it's no less sturdy than
>it was when it was bolted to the workbench.

I bolted my metalworking vise to some 3/4" plywood, with a cleat screwed across the bottom
of the plywood.

Locate the cleat in the front-vise on the workbench and tighten the vise.

I did the same with the Marsh Tool (later Stanley #100) mitre box.

On 9/13/2019 10:54 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
> I don't have as much shop space any more, as my shop now has to share
> duties with a garage.
>
> So between a bandsaw, jointer, planer, RAS, table saw, and circular saw,
> what tools can be combined to cover the basic operations we need to do?
> Crosscut, rip, and maybe resaw. I'm not sure I trust my RAS to rip,
> it's missing important pieces like the anti-kickback pawls.

I tend to agree with what Bob posted with regard to the pecking order of
your tool disposal.

OTOH, if you really like your RAS, you have two options if you wish to
keep it. First, obviously, is to find the missing parts to re-enable
the anti-kickback mechanism. The second is to Jerry-rig an auxiliary
fence, used solely for ripping operations on the RAS and equip it with
these anti-kickback rollers. Board Buddies by trade name.

<https://www.amazon.com/Woodstock-W1104-Board-Buddies-Yellow/dp/B0000223VK/ref=asc_df_B0000223VK/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309832851244&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3322504767654745801&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9021490&hvtargid=pla-496781917612&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=64417494871&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=309832851244&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3322504767654745801&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9021490&hvtargid=pla-496781917612>

OR

http://tinyurl.com/y6zqvckk

On 9/18/2019 9:02 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:40:16 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:20:53 AM UTC-4, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>> On 9/18/2019 7:35 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:> On 9/18/2019 7:14 AM, Jack wrote:
>>> >> On 9/17/2019 11:49 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>> >>
>>>

[SNIP]

>>> I have turned down some pretty impressive equipment that would have been
>>> free except for the cost to transport it because if I ran it I'd have to
>>> turn off everything else in the shop. LOL.
>>
>> Do you at least have the lights on their own breaker? It really sucks when
>> a tool plunges the whole shop into darkness if it trips the breaker.
> WShen it kicks the main breaker having the lights on their own
> doesn't help unless they are running on a battery - - - -

That would be true if there weren't any circuits in the panel, just the
100 amp breaker. If the power tool was on, say, a 60amp circuit
breaker, wouldn't the lights remain on assuming a separate 20amp circuit?

On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 5:08:11 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:

...snip...

>
> Think multiple bases for different pieces of equipment. While these are
> not large pieces, I my vice, grinder, hand miter box, bolted to a 2 X.
> When I need the vice I pull it off the shelf and clamp it to my
> workbench.

...snip...

You talked me into it. I've been trying to decide how to get my vice out of
the way, so I just unbolted it from the workbench and bolted it to a portable
base.

15 minutes later I needed to use it. It was nice to work in the middle of the bench instead of in a crowded corner like I had been.

My table saw with the router table extension and my band saw are on wheels.

My planer is on wheels too, but not in the shop. No room. That lives in the
garage. Not the best situation, but it's not my most used tool.

On Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 11:49:15 AM UTC-4, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 9/17/2019 12:55 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> > On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 4:18:33 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:
> >> I do have a couple bench grinders mounted on a stand that
> >> has a pickup truck wheel filled with concrete for a base. It works
> >> pretty good.
> >
> > Not sure why you think so much weight is necessary for a bench
> grinder. I have two bench grinders on Harbor Freight metal stands. The
> grinders are mounted on wood blocks bolted to the top of the stands.
> Stand weighs 5 pounds. Each grinder weighs 25 to 50 pounds. They work
> perfectly fine for grinding metal. When I use a bench grinder I let the
> 1800 or 3600 rpm spinning wheels take the metal off. I don't use all my
> muscle and weight to force the metal into the wheel. Not necessary.
> The spinning wheels grind the metal off more than fast enough. And help
> to keep the metal cooler, which is important.
> >
>
> Why do you feel the need to minimize the safety of a heavy stable base?
> You do you, and I'll do me.
>
> I choose a heavy stable base (100+ lbs maybe a lot more), because I am
> not the only person in the shop sometimes. Sometimes I share my shop
> with my son and his fellow engineering students when they are working on
> a project. When there are 4 of them in the shop I can't lean over the
> shoulder of every single one. Best I can do sometimes is look around
> and make sure all of them are atleast wearing a face shield, their hair
> is tied back, and nobody has jewelry or long sleeves on. Heck I would
> prefer the grinders were bolted to the floor, but I need to move them
> once in a while. Also there are more than one on that stand. Soon
> there may be three. I can guarantee if I used a flimsy telescoping tube
> discount store stand it would be 100% unsafe to do that. But like I
> said. You do you, and I'll do me. I prefer the safer approach. If it
> makes you feel better to belittle my choice and make false presumptions
> about my grinding technique and skills have at it. I promise I won't
> hold it against you. Its just you being you.
>
> ... BUT THE POINT IS I can't imagine putting a bench VISE on a mobile
> stand unless it had a very large heavy stable base.

See my direct response to that point in your other post. A mobile *base* doesn't
have to be a mobile *stand*.

Puckdropper <[email protected]> on Sat, 14 Sep 2019 16:13:26 GMT
typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>Leon wrote:
>> On 9/13/2019 10:54 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
>>> I don't have as much shop space any more, as my shop now has to share
>>> duties with a garage.
>>> So between a bandsaw, jointer, planer, RAS, table saw, and circular saw,
>>> what tools can be combined to cover the basic operations we need to do?
>>> Crosscut, rip, and maybe resaw. I'm not sure I trust my RAS to rip,
>>> it's missing important pieces like the anti-kickback pawls.
>>>
>>> Puckdropper
>> If everything is on mobile bases you may not need to scale down.
>> I used to have a washer and dry er, my wife's car, water heater,
>> compressor, large TS, Large BS, jointer, router table, dust collector,
>> 15" planer, 22-44 Drum sander, Oscillating spindle sander, 12"Disk
>> sander, 2 full sized tool chests, Drill Press, Trash bin, Lathe, Large
>> fire proof 4 drawer file cabinet and a lot of Festool stuff. Oh and a
>> 5'long work bench. Lots of cabinets and drawers. That was in a two car
>> garage.
>
>Good point. Right now, I've got the tools stored where they've been
>safe for many years so I'm just trying to keep things out of the garage
>in the short term so I can make it a nice space to work. The fewer
>things out there, the better!

I'm half way through the transition. There is a lot of "I need to
get this out where I can see it, so I can figure out where it goes."
I.e., rack, cabinet, resale, or dump.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

On Sunday, September 15, 2019 at 9:06:44 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 17:20:56 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, September 15, 2019 at 7:46:52 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
> >> On Fri, 13 Sep 2019 15:54:17 GMT, Puckdropper <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >I don't have as much shop space any more, as my shop now has to share
> >> >duties with a garage.
> >> >So between a bandsaw, jointer, planer, RAS, table saw, and circular saw,
> >> >what tools can be combined to cover the basic operations we need to do?
> >> >Crosscut, rip, and maybe resaw. I'm not sure I trust my RAS to rip,
> >> >it's missing important pieces like the anti-kickback pawls.
> >> >Puckdropper
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> .. not in answer to your question - but f w i w :
> >> A long time ago, and for ~ 10 years, my Craftsman 10 inch
> >> radial arm saw was the only shop machine I owned.
> >> I had no problem ripping full 2 inch softwood and hardwood.
> >> .. no anti kickback - just a lot of care & consideration when
> >> pushng it through. and a decent blade.
> >> I'm not saying that it's a good choice for you to keep -
> >> and it's not a good choice for ripping - but it can be done.
> >>
> >> circular saw ? not sure why that is in your list of shop machines ?
> >>
> >> If there is a seniors woodworking center available - you might
> >> consider a membership - for the big professional shop machines -
> >> with big professional dust collection -
> >> - and concentrate on nice little "hand tools" for home ..
> >> ie: router table ; table top belt sander < sharpener ! >
> >> John T.
> >
> >Why does it have to be a *seniors* woodworking center?
> >
>
> ~ $ 100. per year membership. ... and no young assholes.
> ... nuff said ?
> John t.

A lot of young assholes grow up to be senior assholes.

$100 seems awfully low unless the membership is large, making for a crowded workshop. Subsidized, perhaps? Nothing like that near me. $40/month at our
local Makerspace.

Young woodworkers can learn a lot from senior woodworkers. That's good for
both the young and the senior woodworker.

Besides, an shared woodworking shop doesn't sound like a place where "young
assholes" hang out.

On Tue, 17 Sep 2019 20:25:26 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 5:18:33 PM UTC-4, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> On 9/15/2019 6:52 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:> On Friday, September 13, 2019
>> at 5:08:11 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
>> >
>> > ...snip...
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Think multiple bases for different pieces of equipment. While these are
>> >> not large pieces, I my vice, grinder, hand miter box, bolted to a 2 X.
>> >> When I need the vice I pull it off the shelf and clamp it to my
>> >> workbench.
>> >
>> > ...snip...
>> >
>> > You talked me into it. I've been trying to decide how to get my vice
>> out of
>> > the way, so I just unbolted it from the workbench and bolted it to a
>> portable
>> > base.
>>
>>
>> I can't imagine putting my bench vise on a portable stand unless it had
>> something like a semi-truck wheel filled with concrete for the bottom
>> base part.
>
>I think you have a different idea of a "mobile base" than I meant.
>
>By mobile base, I meant a piece of 6/4 poplar large enough to bolt the vise to with about 6
>inches on either side for clamps. Once it's clamped to the workbench, it's no less sturdy than
>it was when it was bolted to the workbench. Only now it's "mobile" in that I can clamp it
>anywhere I want, including the picnic table or (shhhh) the dining room table. ;-)
The top of my workbench is 1/2 inch solid steel with holes drilled
and threaded for my vice. It comes off pretty easy if I need to have
more space on my bench. I have a second vice I can clamp to wherever
if required as well as both a zyliss and a B&D portable vice. The
Zyliss makes a decent work stand for working on bicycles when clamped
to a workmate - - - -

< snippage >

> Also consider changing your tools and how you use them.
> Europeans use combination machines . .
> are big into those track saws
> The Festool Domino makes slip tenons easily.
> I am NOT saying this is cheap or easy.
>

Just check your home insurance policy -
.. you might need a special rider for that Domino .. :-0

http://www.leevalley.com/en/Festool/page.aspx?p=69453&cat=5,105,68330

John T.

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 22:02:24 -0400, Clare Snyder <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:40:16 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:20:53 AM UTC-4, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>> On 9/18/2019 7:35 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:> On 9/18/2019 7:14 AM, Jack wrote:
>>> >> On 9/17/2019 11:49 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> I choose a heavy stable base (100+ lbs maybe a lot more), because I am
>>> >>> not the only person in the shop sometimes.
>>> >>
>>> >> Not exactly a bench grinder, but, you might enjoy this guys build.
>>> >> He's a machinist with a "to die for shop", and skills to match. It's a
>>> >> 5 part series, but his channel has lots of really nice shop built
>>> >> tools. This one fits your "maybe a lot more" thinking:-)
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXzoM-WXWRw&list=PLkfgL2SKCY4f-LSxB7ykXtdsrlhc1_Bde
>>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> or more simply:
>>> >>
>>> >> https://tinyurl.com/y5kds98z
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> P.S. I'd probably have some of the bigger old iron he has or similar
>>> except when I built my shop its was only intend to be a warehouse for my
>>> contracting business. I only ran a 100 AMP drop to the "warehouse" for
>>> light, a few outlets, and a small air conditioner for the office. I
>>> figured that was overkill. Boy was I wrong.
>>>
>>> When I start getting multiple machines going I start adding up my
>>> electrical usage in my head to make sure I'm not going to trip the main
>>> if the office air conditioner or the air compressor comes on (both draw
>>> about the same peak on start up.) There was once or twice when I heard
>>> a couple machines load up at once that I thought to myself, "I'm sure
>>> glad I am the only one with a remote for the overhead doors."
>>>
>>> I have turned down some pretty impressive equipment that would have been
>>> free except for the cost to transport it because if I ran it I'd have to
>>> turn off everything else in the shop. LOL.
>>
>>Do you at least have the lights on their own breaker? It really sucks when
>>a tool plunges the whole shop into darkness if it trips the breaker.
> WShen it kicks the main breaker having the lights on their own
>doesn't help unless they are running on a battery - - - -

If it kicks the main breaker instead of the branch breaker you really
need to get an electrician to look at the wiring because there's
something wrong.

Unquestionably Confused wrote:

> On 9/13/2019 10:54 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
>> I don't have as much shop space any more, as my shop now has to share
>> duties with a garage.
>>
>> So between a bandsaw, jointer, planer, RAS, table saw, and circular saw,
>> what tools can be combined to cover the basic operations we need to do?
>> Crosscut, rip, and maybe resaw. I'm not sure I trust my RAS to rip,
>> it's missing important pieces like the anti-kickback pawls.
>
> I tend to agree with what Bob posted with regard to the pecking order of
> your tool disposal.
>
> OTOH, if you really like your RAS, you have two options if you wish to
> keep it. First, obviously, is to find the missing parts to re-enable
> the anti-kickback mechanism. The second is to Jerry-rig an auxiliary
> fence, used solely for ripping operations on the RAS and equip it with
> these anti-kickback rollers. Board Buddies by trade name.
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Woodstock-W1104-Board-Buddies-Yellow/dp/B0000223VK/
>
> OR
>
> http://tinyurl.com/y6zqvckk

Those board buddies look like they'd work nicely. The RAS is my most
accurate tool, I'm sure it will give me accurate rips as well as
crosscuts.

When ripping, do people add a temporary work surface as well as fence?
When cutting to different lengths, the RAS blade will make shallow
grooves in the table, I just want to keep my table in great shape for as
long as possible.

Puckdropper

On 9/19/2019 12:20 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 22:10:42 -0500, Unquestionably Confused
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 9/18/2019 9:02 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
>>> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:40:16 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:20:53 AM UTC-4, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>>>> On 9/18/2019 7:35 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:> On 9/18/2019 7:14 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>>> >> On 9/17/2019 11:49 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>>
>>
>> [SNIP]
>>
>>>>> I have turned down some pretty impressive equipment that would have been
>>>>> free except for the cost to transport it because if I ran it I'd have to
>>>>> turn off everything else in the shop. LOL.
>>>>
>>>> Do you at least have the lights on their own breaker? It really sucks when
>>>> a tool plunges the whole shop into darkness if it trips the breaker.
>>> WShen it kicks the main breaker having the lights on their own
>>> doesn't help unless they are running on a battery - - - -
>>
>> That would be true if there weren't any circuits in the panel, just the
>> 100 amp breaker. If the power tool was on, say, a 60amp circuit
>> breaker, wouldn't the lights remain on assuming a separate 20amp circuit?
> His problem is when the 40 amp cabinet saw is running, with1,400
> watts of shop lights and a 20 amp dust collector when both the air
> conditioner and beer fridge decide to start at the same time and it
> kicks the MAIN breaker in his shop sub-panel. Or the thickness planer,
> drum sander, and jointer are all running along with the dust collector
> and air conditioner - all on different properly sized circuits and he
> decides to start the 2Hp router - you know - the old one without
> soft-start that needs to be on a 20 amp breaker because it kicks a 15
> every time it starts. POP goes the MAIN breaker. (mabee a few other
> "power suckers" running at the same time)
>
> Having the ONLY garage door opener means SHMBO doesn't open the garage
> door at a critical point in the power consumption curve - - - -
>

DOH! You're correct. My bad!

On 9/13/2019 8:54 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
> I don't have as much shop space any more, as my shop now has to share
> duties with a garage.
>
> So between a bandsaw, jointer, planer, RAS, table saw, and circular saw,
> what tools can be combined to cover the basic operations we need to do?
> Crosscut, rip, and maybe resaw. I'm not sure I trust my RAS to rip,
> it's missing important pieces like the anti-kickback pawls.
>
> Puckdropper
>

I was just talking about this on Hobby Machinist in a thread titled
Least Used Machines.
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/79663-Least-used-machines/page4
I'd probably let the RAS go first. Bandsaw would probably be the LAST
machine to go. I happen to have 4 bandsaws and I use all of them. LOL.
Second to last would probably be the table saw. If its a cabinet saw
with leaves or built into a central workstation it can do everything all
the other saws can do except curved cuts and cutting steel.

On 9/13/2019 12:22 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 9/13/2019 8:54 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
>> I don't have as much shop space any more, as my shop now has to share
>> duties with a garage.
>>
>> So between a bandsaw, jointer, planer, RAS, table saw, and circular sa=
w,
>> what tools can be combined to cover the basic operations we need to do=
?
>> Crosscut, rip, and maybe resaw.=C2=A0 I'm not sure I trust my RAS to r=
ip,
>> it's missing important pieces like the anti-kickback pawls.
>>
>> Puckdropper
>>
>=20
> I was just talking about this on Hobby Machinist in a thread titled=20
> Least Used Machines.=20
> http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/79663-Least-used-machines/page=
4=20
> =C2=A0I'd probably let the RAS go first.=C2=A0 Bandsaw would probably =
be the LAST=20
> machine to go.=C2=A0 I happen to have 4 bandsaws and I use all of them.=
=C2=A0 LOL.=20
> =C2=A0Second to last would probably be the table saw.=C2=A0 If its a c=
abinet saw=20
> with leaves or built into a central workstation it can do everything al=
l=20
> the other saws can do except curved cuts and cutting steel.
Before you get rid of anything, review ways you can mobilize your work=20
shop. I have seen garage workshops that are quite well equipped, but=20
because of the design the garage is capable of taking all of the wood=20
working equipment plus the cars.

Think of placing things on wheels" My workbench and table saw are on=20
wheels. When not in use they fit compactly along the Wall. When in=20
use the equipment arrangement can be adjusted so that I have the most=20
convenient work space.

Think multiple bases for different pieces of equipment. While these are =

not large pieces, I my vice, grinder, hand miter box, bolted to a 2 X.=20
When I need the vice I pull it off the shelf and clamp it to my=20
workbench. Same with other tools on basis of this type

I have seen some work areas where larger tools are carouseled so as you=20
need the tool you rotate it into position, and use it.

Elevate: Some items that are traditionally floor mounted can be fixed so =

they go up above something else rather than beside something.

I have seen a video where some put all of thier benches, racks, and=20
tools on wheels. When not in use evey thing fit aganst the wall. When=20
needed the tools, racks, and cabinets could be rolled into the best=20
ergonnomic positions

You can hava a lot of tools if you think outside of the traditional box.

--=20
Judge your ancestors by how well they met their standards not yours.
They did not know your standards, so could not try to meet them.

On 9/13/2019 11:54 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
> I don't have as much shop space any more, as my shop now has to share
> duties with a garage.
>
> So between a bandsaw, jointer, planer, RAS, table saw, and circular saw,
> what tools can be combined to cover the basic operations we need to do?
> Crosscut, rip, and maybe resaw. I'm not sure I trust my RAS to rip,
> it's missing important pieces like the anti-kickback pawls.

Lose the RAS and table saw, get a track saw. Lose the jointer as it is
not needed much unless you use rough cut lumber. Planer is cool but
probably can get by w/o it. A lot depends on what you do in your shop.
Seems you would know best since it is your shop and presumably has been
in use by you.

Ask Roy Underhill and he'd tell you you don't need any of that crap.
Myself, I'd not give up one tool just to put a damned car in my garage.

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.

On 9/13/2019 2:08 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
> On 9/13/2019 12:22 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> On 9/13/2019 8:54 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
>>> I don't have as much shop space any more, as my shop now has to share
>>> duties with a garage.
>>>
>>> So between a bandsaw, jointer, planer, RAS, table saw, and circular
saw,
>>> what tools can be combined to cover the basic operations we need to do?
>>> Crosscut, rip, and maybe resaw. I'm not sure I trust my RAS to rip,
>>> it's missing important pieces like the anti-kickback pawls.
>>>
>>> Puckdropper
>>>
>>
>> I was just talking about this on Hobby Machinist in a thread titled
Least Used Machines.
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/79663-Least-used-machines/page4
I'd probably let the RAS go first. Bandsaw would probably be the
LAST machine to go. I happen to have 4 bandsaws and I use all of them.
LOL. Second to last would probably be the table saw. If its a cabinet
saw with leaves or built into a central workstation it can do everything
all the other saws can do except curved cuts and cutting steel.
> Before you get rid of anything, review ways you can mobilize your
work shop. I have seen garage workshops that are quite well equipped,
but because of the design the garage is capable of taking all of the
wood working equipment plus the cars.
>
> Think of placing things on wheels" My workbench and table saw are on
wheels. When not in use they fit compactly along the Wall. When in
use the equipment arrangement can be adjusted so that I have the most
convenient work space.
>
> Think multiple bases for different pieces of equipment. While these
are not large pieces, I my vice, grinder, hand miter box, bolted to a 2
X. When I need the vice I pull it off the shelf and clamp it to my
workbench. Same with other tools on basis of this type
>
> I have seen some work areas where larger tools are carouseled so as
you need the tool you rotate it into position, and use it.
>
> Elevate: Some items that are traditionally floor mounted can be fixed
so they go up above something else rather than beside something.
>
> I have seen a video where some put all of thier benches, racks, and
tools on wheels. When not in use evey thing fit aganst the wall. When
needed the tools, racks, and cabinets could be rolled into the best
ergonnomic positions
>
> You can hava a lot of tools if you think outside of the traditional box.
>


If I did single projects from start to finish I could see the utility in
that. Now admittedly I do mostly metal working, but mine is a working
shop. At any given time I have 20 projects of my own and 30-40 customer
jobs on the projects board. Every machine I use has to be accessible
right now or it slows me down. If I had to move machines to get to
machines it would slow me down more than not having a machine I rarely
use and can use another machine for. That being said I am a big
believer in having more machines to get more work done. Even if I only
use it once in a while if its set up for a particular job it makes me
more efficient. If I have the space I won't sell a machine that I use
even if only occasionally. For example I have 4 drill presses. One is
used as most are. For whatever size hole I need to wallow in the next
piece of stock, two are semi permanently setup with automatic tapping
heads, and one is in the garage wood shop on the house so my wife and
son aren't tempted to come out to the shop and change the setup on one
of the working drill presses. For me the space for those drill presses
and having them IMMEDIATELY available is more valuable than the space
used by my RAS. Even if the RAS is on wheels (which it is) and I put it
behind those drill presses it costs me productive time to move it out
and use it, then move it back to make sure those drill presses are
accessible when I need them.

I am not saying a shop on wheels is a bad idea. I can see very much how
it would be useful to somebody trying to have a full wood shop in a two
car garage and still have room for the wife to park her car, so she
doesn't have your tools hauled away when you are at work. I am just
saying that its not always the best solution. For me I could buy a lot
of end mills for the used value of the RAS.

It doesn't help that I retired from contracting the end of 2016 and
still have tons of supplies on the "shelf." I need to sell a lot of
that off, but that takes time too.

Ultimately PuckDropper has to decide what is going to work the best for
him. Your alternative of a shop on wheels may well be the best answer,
but for me it would drive me crazy.

I do like some of the flip top machine stands. Where you have say a
thickness planer and a drum sander on one stand and you flip the top to
raise up whichever machine you need. Doesn't work so well for a drill
press that stands 5-6 feet tall, but it does make room for it. I saw
one setup on Youtube where the guy had several pieces of equipment in a
very large work table that could be turned up or turned down to leave
the table top flat. Even his table saw was part of that setup. If
somebody worked with a lot of sheet goods that would be an extremely
space efficient setup in spite of its large size.

On 9/16/2019 9:15 AM, pyotr filipivich wrote:> Bob La Londe
<[email protected]> on Sat, 14 Sep 2019 08:13:11 -0700
> typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>>
>> If I did single projects from start to finish I could see the utility in
>> that. Now admittedly I do mostly metal working, but mine is a working
>> shop. At any given time I have 20 projects of my own and 30-40 customer
>> jobs on the projects board. Every machine I use has to be accessible
>> right now or it slows me down.
>
> The situation you are in is different than the situation he is in.
> Hobbyists rarely find themselves needing to be ultra efficient in
> space and tool usage. As I said while watching the mill make the
> prototype: "If I was going into production, I'd do it differently."*
> There are a number of skills I would like to have, which I could
> no doubt "pick up" if I did them forty hours a week. But I do not
> have those 40 hours, so dedicating space to have the drafting /
> lettering table, lathe/mill, turning machine, book binding frame,
> plough plane and press, etc, etc, and so on, isn't a flying option.
> And that is before I get to the non-material crafts. (Anyone know
> of a "teach yourself to write Slavonic" textbook/ course?)
>
> tschus
> pyotr
>
> *I recall an essay from the early 1990's: the author was a
> professional furniture maker, who wrote that the finest furniture was
> made by his neighbor, the accountant. Because _he_ did not have to
> sell something to make the rent, he could spend all the time needed to
> make it "perfect". From choosing the wood, to the final finishing.
> I'm with him, there are a lot of things I've made which never got
> "properly finished" because I needed something now, not next week. But
> I digress.
>

Pyotr,

I do not disagree. I just wanted to make sure that he or other readers
considered all the connotations of making a decision like this. Time is
a valuable commodity for everybody. A RAS or a table saw are capable of
most of the same tasks including ripping. Both a RAS and a table saw
really need an out feed table to do long rip cuts. The only thing I can
think of I can't do on a table saw that I can do with a RAS is that some
RAS' are setup so that you can also use them for routing. That's a
non-issue for me because I have added a cast iron leaf to my table saw
that turns it into a router table.

I actually rarely use either the RAS or the table saw for ripping. When
I buy a stack of sheet goods I also buy a sheet of 2" styrofoam to use
as a backer, and use my worm drive circular saw with an attached rip
fence. I don't often have to rip long pieces of other types of board
stock. (can't remember having done it in decades)

Anyway, I also like to hunt, fish, ride motorcycles, and drive my Jeep
on mountain and desert trails. If I am not efficient in my shop I never
have time to do those things. While I am self admittedly an
argumentative and abrasive individual I also like to take some time to
just sit around with friends and visit. Yes. I actually have friends.
LOL. Not many, but I value the time I spend with them.

TIME is everybody's most valuable commodity over a lifetime.

The other side of this is that once you sell a tool or piece of
machinery you will certainly need it and wish you still had it. LOL.

I've spent years deciding whether or not to sell my RAS. Its for sale
now.

On 9/15/2019 6:52 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:> On Friday, September 13, 2019
at 5:08:11 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
>
> ...snip...
>
>>
>> Think multiple bases for different pieces of equipment. While these are
>> not large pieces, I my vice, grinder, hand miter box, bolted to a 2 X.
>> When I need the vice I pull it off the shelf and clamp it to my
>> workbench.
>
> ...snip...
>
> You talked me into it. I've been trying to decide how to get my vice
out of
> the way, so I just unbolted it from the workbench and bolted it to a
portable
> base.


I can't imagine putting my bench vise on a portable stand unless it had
something like a semi-truck wheel filled with concrete for the bottom
base part. I do have a couple bench grinders mounted on a stand that
has a pickup truck wheel filled with concrete for a base. It works
pretty good. Been thinking about adding a side "shelf" on that same
stand for my 1x30 belt grinder.

On 9/17/2019 12:55 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 4:18:33 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> I do have a couple bench grinders mounted on a stand that
>> has a pickup truck wheel filled with concrete for a base. It works
>> pretty good.
>
> Not sure why you think so much weight is necessary for a bench
grinder. I have two bench grinders on Harbor Freight metal stands. The
grinders are mounted on wood blocks bolted to the top of the stands.
Stand weighs 5 pounds. Each grinder weighs 25 to 50 pounds. They work
perfectly fine for grinding metal. When I use a bench grinder I let the
1800 or 3600 rpm spinning wheels take the metal off. I don't use all my
muscle and weight to force the metal into the wheel. Not necessary.
The spinning wheels grind the metal off more than fast enough. And help
to keep the metal cooler, which is important.
>

Why do you feel the need to minimize the safety of a heavy stable base?
You do you, and I'll do me.

I choose a heavy stable base (100+ lbs maybe a lot more), because I am
not the only person in the shop sometimes. Sometimes I share my shop
with my son and his fellow engineering students when they are working on
a project. When there are 4 of them in the shop I can't lean over the
shoulder of every single one. Best I can do sometimes is look around
and make sure all of them are atleast wearing a face shield, their hair
is tied back, and nobody has jewelry or long sleeves on. Heck I would
prefer the grinders were bolted to the floor, but I need to move them
once in a while. Also there are more than one on that stand. Soon
there may be three. I can guarantee if I used a flimsy telescoping tube
discount store stand it would be 100% unsafe to do that. But like I
said. You do you, and I'll do me. I prefer the safer approach. If it
makes you feel better to belittle my choice and make false presumptions
about my grinding technique and skills have at it. I promise I won't
hold it against you. Its just you being you.

... BUT THE POINT IS I can't imagine putting a bench VISE on a mobile
stand unless it had a very large heavy stable base.

On 9/17/2019 11:25 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 5:18:33 PM UTC-4, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> On 9/15/2019 6:52 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:> On Friday, September 13, 2019
>> at 5:08:11 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
>> >
>> > ...snip...
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Think multiple bases for different pieces of equipment. While these are
>> >> not large pieces, I my vice, grinder, hand miter box, bolted to a 2 X.
>> >> When I need the vice I pull it off the shelf and clamp it to my
>> >> workbench.
>> >
>> > ...snip...
>> >
>> > You talked me into it. I've been trying to decide how to get my vice
>> out of
>> > the way, so I just unbolted it from the workbench and bolted it to a
>> portable
>> > base.
>>
>>
>> I can't imagine putting my bench vise on a portable stand unless it had
>> something like a semi-truck wheel filled with concrete for the bottom
>> base part.
>
> I think you have a different idea of a "mobile base" than I meant.
>
> By mobile base, I meant a piece of 6/4 poplar large enough to bolt the vise to with about 6
> inches on either side for clamps. Once it's clamped to the workbench, it's no less sturdy than
> it was when it was bolted to the workbench. Only now it's "mobile" in that I can clamp it
> anywhere I want, including the picnic table or (shhhh) the dining room table. ;-)
>
For my vice and several other similar devices I use a piece of 2X10 or
2X12 about 14" long. When I need it for heavy duty vice activities I
clamp it to the workbench. For light duty activities, I find he weight
of the base and vice are sufficient to keep things stable.

--
Judge your ancestors by how well they met their standards not yours.
They did not know your standards, so could not try to meet them.

On 9/17/2019 11:49 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:

> I choose a heavy stable base (100+ lbs maybe a lot more), because I am
> not the only person in the shop sometimes.

Not exactly a bench grinder, but, you might enjoy this guys build. He's
a machinist with a "to die for shop", and skills to match. It's a 5 part
series, but his channel has lots of really nice shop built tools. This
one fits your "maybe a lot more" thinking:-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXzoM-WXWRw&list=PLkfgL2SKCY4f-LSxB7ykXtdsrlhc1_Bde

or more simply:

https://tinyurl.com/y5kds98z
--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.

On 9/18/2019 7:14 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 9/17/2019 11:49 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>
>> I choose a heavy stable base (100+ lbs maybe a lot more), because I am
>> not the only person in the shop sometimes.
>
> Not exactly a bench grinder, but, you might enjoy this guys build.  He's
> a machinist with a "to die for shop", and skills to match. It's a 5 part
> series, but his channel has lots of really nice shop built tools. This
> one fits your "maybe a lot more" thinking:-)
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXzoM-WXWRw&list=PLkfgL2SKCY4f-LSxB7ykXtdsrlhc1_Bde
>
>
> or more simply:
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y5kds98z


I have watched a bunch of his videos. I have not watched that
particular series yet. You are right. He has an impressive shop. I
really envy his big water jet cutter.

On 9/18/2019 12:19 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:

> The top of my workbench is 1/2 inch solid steel with holes drilled
> and threaded for my vice. It comes off pretty easy if I need to have
> more space on my bench. I have a second vice I can clamp to wherever
> if required as well as both a zyliss and a B&D portable vice. The
> Zyliss makes a decent work stand for working on bicycles when clamped
> to a workmate - - - -

I have 5 vices all mounted permanently to work benches. Portable vices
I've never needed, unless you call a myriad of clamps portable vices,
which I guess they are.

My bench grinder on the other hand is mounted on a piece of wood and it
sits freely on my work bench. I never clamp it, bolt it or anything and
it doesn't move a speck. If it was on a free standing mobile base, I
would want it heavy enough not to be easily knocked over, but as far as
it moving in use, not happening with anything I've used my grinder for,
ever. I've never had a need to move my grinder. I can pick it up and
move it anywhere, but just never needed to.
--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.

On 9/18/2019 7:35 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:> On 9/18/2019 7:14 AM, Jack wrote:
>> On 9/17/2019 11:49 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>
>>> I choose a heavy stable base (100+ lbs maybe a lot more), because I am
>>> not the only person in the shop sometimes.
>>
>> Not exactly a bench grinder, but, you might enjoy this guys build.
>> He's a machinist with a "to die for shop", and skills to match. It's a
>> 5 part series, but his channel has lots of really nice shop built
>> tools. This one fits your "maybe a lot more" thinking:-)
>>
>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXzoM-WXWRw&list=PLkfgL2SKCY4f-LSxB7ykXtdsrlhc1_Bde

>>
>>
>> or more simply:
>>
>> https://tinyurl.com/y5kds98z
>
>

P.S. I'd probably have some of the bigger old iron he has or similar
except when I built my shop its was only intend to be a warehouse for my
contracting business. I only ran a 100 AMP drop to the "warehouse" for
light, a few outlets, and a small air conditioner for the office. I
figured that was overkill. Boy was I wrong.

When I start getting multiple machines going I start adding up my
electrical usage in my head to make sure I'm not going to trip the main
if the office air conditioner or the air compressor comes on (both draw
about the same peak on start up.) There was once or twice when I heard
a couple machines load up at once that I thought to myself, "I'm sure
glad I am the only one with a remote for the overhead doors."

I have turned down some pretty impressive equipment that would have been
free except for the cost to transport it because if I ran it I'd have to
turn off everything else in the shop. LOL.

On 9/18/2019 8:10 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
> On 9/18/2019 9:02 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:40:16 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:20:53 AM UTC-4, Bob La Londe
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 9/18/2019 7:35 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:> On 9/18/2019 7:14 AM,
>>>> Jack wrote:
>>>>   >> On 9/17/2019 11:49 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>>>   >>
>>>>
>
> [SNIP]
>
>>>> I have turned down some pretty impressive equipment that would have
>>>> been
>>>> free except for the cost to transport it because if I ran it I'd
>>>> have to
>>>> turn off everything else in the shop.  LOL.

I do have some battery backup emergency LED flood lighting in the shop.
So far they have only kicked on during my routine tests, and when we
have had a general power failure.

>>>
>>> Do you at least have the lights on their own breaker? It really sucks
>>> when
>>> a tool plunges the whole shop into darkness if it trips the breaker.
>>   WShen it kicks the main breaker having the lights on their own
>> doesn't help unless they are running on a battery - - - -

I'm not really concerend about tripping an individual breaker. The only
thing I have that might do that is the big Miller Mig Welder and I only
use it when nothing else critical is running due to fear of
electrical/RF noise causing a CNC machine to crash. I have forgotten
and used it anyway a couple times. Nothing bad happened.


> That would be true if there weren't any circuits in the panel, just the
> 100 amp breaker.  If the power tool was on, say, a 60amp circuit
> breaker, wouldn't the lights remain on assuming a separate 20amp circuit?


Nothing in my shop should trip its individual breaker even under peak
load except the welder listed above. I have it on a 50 amp breaker, and
the books says it should be on a 65. However, if I had say 3 2HP mills,
the 5HP mill, the 1HP mill, all hit peak load in an inside corner cut at
just the exact moment the air conditioner or the air compressor (3.7HP)
motor started up I'd be worried. Particularly if I was also taking a
heavy cut on the 3HP lathe at the same time. You might add that all up
in your head and say, "Hey that's under 70 amps," (On 230V) but that is
not accounting for the draw of all the servo and stepper motors. The
servos on one machine are setup to pull as much as 35 amps at 90VDC
each. They typically pull less than 5 amps, but in that theoretical
peak load in a poorly planned inside corner cut they could draw a lot
more. Then you have to remember that there are atleast 3 such motors on
all five CNC mills. Not all of which are that heavy, but it all adds
up. Ever one of those machines is on its own dedicated breaker sized
appropriately for the machine.

The reality is not all of those machines are running all the time even
though the goal is to have them all running when I am in the shop.
Also, the odds of everything in the shop pulling peak load or overload
at once is pretty slim. Probably infintesimal. Of course the main
breaker would not trip the instant it hit 100amps either. Like most
breakers it takes atleast a few seconds of overload or extreme overload
to trip. I could very likely run one or two more 5HP machines or 4-6
more 2HP machines if I had breakers to put them on. My 100 amp sub
panel has 2 60 amp subpanels of its own. I only have two spare breakers
in the whole building. Both are 120V. Yes I am using compact breakers.

On 9/19/2019 2:46 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 9/18/2019 8:10 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
>> On 9/18/2019 9:02 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
>>> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:40:16 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:20:53 AM UTC-4, Bob La Londe
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On 9/18/2019 7:35 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:> On 9/18/2019 7:14 AM,
>>>>> Jack wrote:
>>>>> >> On 9/17/2019 11:49 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>>
>>
>> [SNIP]
>>
>>>>> I have turned down some pretty impressive equipment that would have
>>>>> been
>>>>> free except for the cost to transport it because if I ran it I'd
>>>>> have to
>>>>> turn off everything else in the shop. LOL.
>
> I do have some battery backup emergency LED flood lighting in the shop.
> So far they have only kicked on during my routine tests, and when we
> have had a general power failure.
>
>>>>
>>>> Do you at least have the lights on their own breaker? It really
>>>> sucks when
>>>> a tool plunges the whole shop into darkness if it trips the breaker.
>>> WShen it kicks the main breaker having the lights on their own
>>> doesn't help unless they are running on a battery - - - -
>
> I'm not really concerend about tripping an individual breaker. The only
> thing I have that might do that is the big Miller Mig Welder and I only
> use it when nothing else critical is running due to fear of
> electrical/RF noise causing a CNC machine to crash. I have forgotten
> and used it anyway a couple times. Nothing bad happened.
>
>
>> That would be true if there weren't any circuits in the panel, just
>> the 100 amp breaker. If the power tool was on, say, a 60amp circuit
>> breaker, wouldn't the lights remain on assuming a separate 20amp circuit?
>
>
> Nothing in my shop should trip its individual breaker even under peak
> load except the welder listed above. I have it on a 50 amp breaker, and
> the books says it should be on a 65. However, if I had say 3 2HP mills,
> the 5HP mill, the 1HP mill, all hit peak load in an inside corner cut at
> just the exact moment the air conditioner or the air compressor (3.7HP)
> motor started up I'd be worried. Particularly if I was also taking a
> heavy cut on the 3HP lathe at the same time. You might add that all up
> in your head and say, "Hey that's under 70 amps," (On 230V) but that is
> not accounting for the draw of all the servo and stepper motors. The
> servos on one machine are setup to pull as much as 35 amps at 90VDC
> each. They typically pull less than 5 amps, but in that theoretical
> peak load in a poorly planned inside corner cut they could draw a lot
> more. Then you have to remember that there are atleast 3 such motors on
> all five CNC mills. Not all of which are that heavy, but it all adds
> up. Ever one of those machines is on its own dedicated breaker sized
> appropriately for the machine.
>
> The reality is not all of those machines are running all the time even
> though the goal is to have them all running when I am in the shop. Also,
> the odds of everything in the shop pulling peak load or overload at once
> is pretty slim. Probably infintesimal. Of course the main breaker
> would not trip the instant it hit 100amps either. Like most breakers it
> takes atleast a few seconds of overload or extreme overload to trip. I
> could very likely run one or two more 5HP machines or 4-6 more 2HP
> machines if I had breakers to put them on. My 100 amp sub panel has 2
> 60 amp subpanels of its own. I only have two spare breakers in the
> whole building. Both are 120V. Yes I am using compact breakers.

Wow, you have a lot of stuff:-) How big is your main panel, or do you
have more than one?

I run most of my shop tools on one 12 amp breaker, not counting the
planer 240 line, compressor and DC. The other 9 stationary tools are on
the one circuit. I can run 2 tools at once but almost never do since
it's just a one man shop. I used to run everything but the planer on
one 12 amp circuit but would always trip the breaker if running a tool
and the DC and the compressor kicked on. I fixed that when I put in a
200 amp service and put the tools that often run along with others (DC
and Compressor} on their own circuits. Lights I have on 2 different
circuits so I always have light, even if working on lights.

Also, when I first moved here I lost all power. Couldn't figure it out
so called an electrician, turned out my 100amp main breaker went bad,
for no discernible reason.
--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.

On 9/19/2019 8:10 PM, J. Clarke wrote:> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 22:02:24
-0400, Clare Snyder <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:40:16 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:20:53 AM UTC-4, Bob La Londe
wrote:
>>>> On 9/18/2019 7:35 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:> On 9/18/2019 7:14 AM,
Jack wrote:
>>>> >> On 9/17/2019 11:49 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> I choose a heavy stable base (100+ lbs maybe a lot more),
because I am
>>>> >>> not the only person in the shop sometimes.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Not exactly a bench grinder, but, you might enjoy this guys
build.
>>>> >> He's a machinist with a "to die for shop", and skills to
match. It's a
>>>> >> 5 part series, but his channel has lots of really nice shop built
>>>> >> tools. This one fits your "maybe a lot more" thinking:-)
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXzoM-WXWRw&list=PLkfgL2SKCY4f-LSxB7ykXtdsrlhc1_Bde
>>>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> or more simply:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> https://tinyurl.com/y5kds98z
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> P.S. I'd probably have some of the bigger old iron he has or similar
>>>> except when I built my shop its was only intend to be a warehouse
for my
>>>> contracting business. I only ran a 100 AMP drop to the
"warehouse" for
>>>> light, a few outlets, and a small air conditioner for the office. I
>>>> figured that was overkill. Boy was I wrong.
>>>>
>>>> When I start getting multiple machines going I start adding up my
>>>> electrical usage in my head to make sure I'm not going to trip the
main
>>>> if the office air conditioner or the air compressor comes on (both
draw
>>>> about the same peak on start up.) There was once or twice when I
heard
>>>> a couple machines load up at once that I thought to myself, "I'm sure
>>>> glad I am the only one with a remote for the overhead doors."
>>>>
>>>> I have turned down some pretty impressive equipment that would
have been
>>>> free except for the cost to transport it because if I ran it I'd
have to
>>>> turn off everything else in the shop. LOL.
>>>
>>> Do you at least have the lights on their own breaker? It really
sucks when
>>> a tool plunges the whole shop into darkness if it trips the breaker.
>> WShen it kicks the main breaker having the lights on their own
>> doesn't help unless they are running on a battery - - - -
>
> If it kicks the main breaker instead of the branch breaker you really
> need to get an electrician to look at the wiring because there's
> something wrong.
>

First off I was a licensed contractor. (For well over 20 years with
multiple licenses) You can have more breaker capacity than main
capacity. Its allowed under code and almost every modern house in
America is setup that way. Probably if you go add up the rating on
every breaker in your house you will find they exceed the rating of the
main breaker. The thing is you never use every circuit at once to its
full or even a significant portion of its rating. However if you use
all circuits to 50 or 75% of their capacity you might exceed the
capacity of the main and NEVER exceed the capacity of any one branch
circuit. In a home that is extremely unlikely, but in a home shop its
possible. Particularly one with automated machines, and machines that
turn on pseudo randomly like an air conditioner or air compressor. The
reality is you "might" trip some branch circuits anyway, but you might
trip the main.

Now of course this is the point where you should speak louder and in a
judgemental tone say, "Well you should have not been so stupid as to
install such a small panel."

I would reply, "Of course. You are right. I should have guessed when I
never owned a CNC machine and never even thought of it that I might
someday have six of them running all at once in the building that was
only intended to be a warehouse for my contracting company. Those
machines along with some substantial manual machines as well."

More than once in this very newsgroup I have preached based on my
experience that guys should always setup for more capacity in their home
shops than they think they will ever need. Heck. I installed more
capacity than I thought I would ever need. In response lots of guys
say, "Oh you don't need all that" or "Not everybody is going to have a
bunch of machines running at once in their one man shop." They might
not, but its better to have it and not need it than to need it and not
have it.

To verify my point I just walked outside and checked the main panel on
my house. It was installed by a a licensed electrician other than
myself, and has passed 3 electrical inspections by the county building
inspector over the years. When the house was built. When I added my
shop. When I upgrade my pool and added a hot tub. It has about double
the individual breaker capacity of the main just adding up the values.
There are 2 sub panels in the house as well. I expect I would find the
same thing if I went and looked at them.

So the blanket statement you made is sort of true, but a gross over
simplification and really not applicable to this branch of the thread.

> If it kicks the main breaker instead of the branch breaker you really
> need to get an electrician to look at the wiring because there's
> something wrong.

Its only true for somebody who doesn't really KNOW what is going on. In
my case the only thing wrong is my lack of precognition about changes in
what I do and the type of business I run. I found I liked making things
in my shop better than contracting, so I mostly make things in my shop
now. I don't need to get an electrician.

After all of that... I have never actually tripped the main breaker in
the sub panel on my shop. As I explained several posts ago. I routinely
add up everything that is running in my head to double check, and the
one real "potential" power hog in the shop doesn't get used when other
machines are running. Actually I have three welders that are power
hogs, but only one outlet for them. An old tombstone, a decent size MIG
rig, and an AC/DC Pulse TIG.

On 9/23/2019 2:54 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
> On 9/23/2019 3:14 PM, Ivan Vegvary wrote:
>> Hey everybody, let's all agree that it's 'vise' and not 'vice' in
>> reference to tools.
>
> Is owning too many tools a vice?
> (I can hear it now:  "You can't have too many tools".)

Too many vises may be a vice.

On 9/13/2019 8:54 AM, Puckdropper wrote:> I don't have as much shop
space any more, as my shop now has to share
> duties with a garage.
>
> So between a bandsaw, jointer, planer, RAS, table saw, and circular saw,
> what tools can be combined to cover the basic operations we need to do?
> Crosscut, rip, and maybe resaw. I'm not sure I trust my RAS to rip,
> it's missing important pieces like the anti-kickback pawls.
>
> Puckdropper
>


Sorry about all the tangents, but thank you for this thread. It has
produced many entertaining and educational posts.

Bob

On Fri, 13 Sep 2019 15:54:17 GMT, Puckdropper <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I don't have as much shop space any more, as my shop now has to share
>duties with a garage.
>So between a bandsaw, jointer, planer, RAS, table saw, and circular saw,
>what tools can be combined to cover the basic operations we need to do?
>Crosscut, rip, and maybe resaw. I'm not sure I trust my RAS to rip,
>it's missing important pieces like the anti-kickback pawls.
>Puckdropper
>


.. not in answer to your question - but f w i w :
A long time ago, and for ~ 10 years, my Craftsman 10 inch
radial arm saw was the only shop machine I owned.
I had no problem ripping full 2 inch softwood and hardwood.
.. no anti kickback - just a lot of care & consideration when
pushng it through. and a decent blade.
I'm not saying that it's a good choice for you to keep -
and it's not a good choice for ripping - but it can be done.

circular saw ? not sure why that is in your list of shop machines ?

If there is a seniors woodworking center available - you might
consider a membership - for the big professional shop machines -
with big professional dust collection -
- and concentrate on nice little "hand tools" for home ..
ie: router table ; table top belt sander < sharpener ! >
John T.

On 9/13/2019 2:42 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Unquestionably Confused wrote:
>
>> On 9/13/2019 10:54 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
>>> I don't have as much shop space any more, as my shop now has to share
>>> duties with a garage.

[snip]
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/y6zqvckk
>
> Those board buddies look like they'd work nicely. The RAS is my most
> accurate tool, I'm sure it will give me accurate rips as well as
> crosscuts.

They do work quite well. I bought mine to use with my cabinet saw which
I bought used. It was missing the guard and anti-kickback device. It
was also old and so had no riving knife.

Board Buddies mounted to the fence work very well.

My RAS is an old Craftsman (one of the models recalled for the lack of a
proper anti-kickback device). Define proper! I never had a problem
with it and always set the provided guard and kickback protection as
designed and while I experienced my share of kickbacks, the device
always nipped it in the bud and the board and saw would lock up. No
harm, no foul.

That's a great saw if you take the time to adjust it properly. Mine
stays true and once tweaked, the only time I bother to check it or
readjust is if I suffer one of the aforementioned "attempted" kickbacks.

Outfitted with Freud's best 10" rip blade, I ran a number of 12' 2 x
10's through it for a project. Didn't need the cut to be "planer
smooth" but that's what I got. I could have glued up any of those
boards just as if they'd come through planer.

>
> When ripping, do people add a temporary work surface as well as fence?
> When cutting to different lengths, the RAS blade will make shallow
> grooves in the table, I just want to keep my table in great shape for as
> long as possible.
Yes, you will get a gully in your top but I've never had a problem with
it. It still cross cuts quite well and, of course, the gully doesn't
even enter into the picture when you're ripping.

If it bothers you (and remember you're going to get a lot of grooves in
the table if you do angled cross cuts, just tack a piece of ¼" plywood
to the top. When it gets too ugly, replace it and the underlying table
will be pristine.

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 17:20:56 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sunday, September 15, 2019 at 7:46:52 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 Sep 2019 15:54:17 GMT, Puckdropper <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I don't have as much shop space any more, as my shop now has to share
>> >duties with a garage.
>> >So between a bandsaw, jointer, planer, RAS, table saw, and circular saw,
>> >what tools can be combined to cover the basic operations we need to do?
>> >Crosscut, rip, and maybe resaw. I'm not sure I trust my RAS to rip,
>> >it's missing important pieces like the anti-kickback pawls.
>> >Puckdropper
>> >
>>
>>
>> .. not in answer to your question - but f w i w :
>> A long time ago, and for ~ 10 years, my Craftsman 10 inch
>> radial arm saw was the only shop machine I owned.
>> I had no problem ripping full 2 inch softwood and hardwood.
>> .. no anti kickback - just a lot of care & consideration when
>> pushng it through. and a decent blade.
>> I'm not saying that it's a good choice for you to keep -
>> and it's not a good choice for ripping - but it can be done.
>>
>> circular saw ? not sure why that is in your list of shop machines ?
>>
>> If there is a seniors woodworking center available - you might
>> consider a membership - for the big professional shop machines -
>> with big professional dust collection -
>> - and concentrate on nice little "hand tools" for home ..
>> ie: router table ; table top belt sander < sharpener ! >
>> John T.
>
>Why does it have to be a *seniors* woodworking center?
>

~ $ 100. per year membership. ... and no young assholes.
... nuff said ?
John t.

On 9/13/2019 10:54 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
> I don't have as much shop space any more, as my shop now has to share
> duties with a garage.
>
> So between a bandsaw, jointer, planer, RAS, table saw, and circular saw,
> what tools can be combined to cover the basic operations we need to do?
> Crosscut, rip, and maybe resaw. I'm not sure I trust my RAS to rip,
> it's missing important pieces like the anti-kickback pawls.
>
> Puckdropper
>


If everything is on mobile bases you may not need to scale down.
I used to have a washer and dry er, my wife's car, water heater,
compressor, large TS, Large BS, jointer, router table, dust collector,
15" planer, 22-44 Drum sander, Oscillating spindle sander, 12"Disk
sander, 2 full sized tool chests, Drill Press, Trash bin, Lathe, Large
fire proof 4 drawer file cabinet and a lot of Festool stuff. Oh and a
5'long work bench. Lots of cabinets and drawers. That was in a two car
garage.

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 21:09:08 -0400, [email protected] wrote:

>On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 17:20:56 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Sunday, September 15, 2019 at 7:46:52 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Fri, 13 Sep 2019 15:54:17 GMT, Puckdropper <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >I don't have as much shop space any more, as my shop now has to share
>>> >duties with a garage.
>>> >So between a bandsaw, jointer, planer, RAS, table saw, and circular saw,
>>> >what tools can be combined to cover the basic operations we need to do?
>>> >Crosscut, rip, and maybe resaw. I'm not sure I trust my RAS to rip,
>>> >it's missing important pieces like the anti-kickback pawls.
>>> >Puckdropper
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> .. not in answer to your question - but f w i w :
>>> A long time ago, and for ~ 10 years, my Craftsman 10 inch
>>> radial arm saw was the only shop machine I owned.
>>> I had no problem ripping full 2 inch softwood and hardwood.
>>> .. no anti kickback - just a lot of care & consideration when
>>> pushng it through. and a decent blade.
>>> I'm not saying that it's a good choice for you to keep -
>>> and it's not a good choice for ripping - but it can be done.
>>>
>>> circular saw ? not sure why that is in your list of shop machines ?
>>>
>>> If there is a seniors woodworking center available - you might
>>> consider a membership - for the big professional shop machines -
>>> with big professional dust collection -
>>> - and concentrate on nice little "hand tools" for home ..
>>> ie: router table ; table top belt sander < sharpener ! >
>>> John T.
>>
>>Why does it have to be a *seniors* woodworking center?
>>
>
> ~ $ 100. per year membership. ... and no young assholes.
> ... nuff said ?
> John t.
You a member over off Sydney Street?(old twin city automoitive
building) I was when they were over on Roger for a few years. Thinking
about re-joining

On 9/15/2019 8:09 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 17:20:56 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, September 15, 2019 at 7:46:52 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Fri, 13 Sep 2019 15:54:17 GMT, Puckdropper <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't have as much shop space any more, as my shop now has to share
>>>> duties with a garage.
>>>> So between a bandsaw, jointer, planer, RAS, table saw, and circular saw,
>>>> what tools can be combined to cover the basic operations we need to do?
>>>> Crosscut, rip, and maybe resaw. I'm not sure I trust my RAS to rip,
>>>> it's missing important pieces like the anti-kickback pawls.
>>>> Puckdropper
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> .. not in answer to your question - but f w i w :
>>> A long time ago, and for ~ 10 years, my Craftsman 10 inch
>>> radial arm saw was the only shop machine I owned.
>>> I had no problem ripping full 2 inch softwood and hardwood.
>>> .. no anti kickback - just a lot of care & consideration when
>>> pushng it through. and a decent blade.
>>> I'm not saying that it's a good choice for you to keep -
>>> and it's not a good choice for ripping - but it can be done.
>>>
>>> circular saw ? not sure why that is in your list of shop machines ?
>>>
>>> If there is a seniors woodworking center available - you might
>>> consider a membership - for the big professional shop machines -
>>> with big professional dust collection -
>>> - and concentrate on nice little "hand tools" for home ..
>>> ie: router table ; table top belt sander < sharpener ! >
>>> John T.
>>
>> Why does it have to be a *seniors* woodworking center?
>>
>
> ~ $ 100. per year membership. ... and no young assholes.
> ... nuff said ?
> John t.
>

Well we all know now that there is at least one "OLD" asshole at the
seniors woodworking center. ;~)