compressor from garage sale

Well, it may have had a pint/quart of water, but the rusting factor would d=
epend on the amount of oxygen reacting with the iron to produce a quantity =
of rust. In a closed container, the rust may be much less than if contents=
were exposed to more open air.

Not just open it, but can you remove the whole petcock assembly, without br=
eaking it? What size hole is in the tank, there, 1/2", 3/4"? If you can r=
emove the assembly, rinse out the tank, well, then rinse with denatured alc=
ohol. Allow to dry, as best it can, before reinstalling the petcock.=20

If I had a questionably badly rusted tank, I might entertain the idea of ri=
nsing/sloshing the bottom of the tank with muratic acid, to see what all mi=
ght be washed out. Rinse with water, afterwards. I would think the very bo=
ttom is rusted the most, if significantly.

Sonny

On Sun, 5 May 2013 17:05:31 -0700 (PDT), Sonny <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Well, it may have had a pint/quart of water, but the rusting factor would depend on the amount of oxygen reacting with the iron to produce a quantity of rust. In a closed container, the rust may be much less than if contents were exposed to more open air.

An air tank has plenty of oxygen in it. High pressure == more oxygen.

>Not just open it, but can you remove the whole petcock assembly, without breaking it? What size hole is in the tank, there, 1/2", 3/4"? If you can remove the assembly, rinse out the tank, well, then rinse with denatured alcohol. Allow to dry, as best it can, before reinstalling the petcock.

It's just going to get "wet" again, at the first use. It's sorta
unavoidable, unless you live in AZ. ;-)

>If I had a questionably badly rusted tank, I might entertain the idea of rinsing/sloshing the bottom of the tank with muratic acid, to see what all might be washed out. Rinse with water, afterwards. I would think the very bottom is rusted the most, if significantly.

That sounds like a really bad idea. The rust isn't going to hurt
anything more than it already has. HCL does corrode steel, which is
*not* useful. If the worry is polluting the air stream, filter it. If
that doesn't work, filter it some more. ;-)

On May 5, 7:14=A0pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 5/5/13 6:26 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 5/5/2013 6:45 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> >> On 5/5/13 4:21 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> >>> On 5/5/2013 5:16 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> >>>> On 5/5/2013 4:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> >>>>> On 5/5/13 2:53 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> >>>>>> When I got it home still did not hear water in it...
> >>>>>> opened up the petcock after charging it up and holy crap the most
> >>>>>> rusted
> >>>>>> water... and probably a pint to quart of water came out.
>
> >>>>>> So what chance do I have of saving this tank?
>
> >>>>> I guess I don't understand what's to save.
> >>>>> Does it still compress air?
> >>>>> You drained out the water.
> >>>>> Put a filter on the output and use it.
>
> >>>>> I think we'd all be surprised by how much water and rust are on the
> >>>>> inside of the tanks we use every day. =A0:-)
>
> >>>> Well, this tank hadn't been used for years the owner said. I let the
> >>>> water out of my tank weekly, how long do you let it sit there.
> >>>> I figure that years of sitting means deep rust inside. Based on the
> >>>> stink of that water, I'd have to say it's been in there a long time.
>
> >>> I also remember that there used to be an additive to tanks to protect
> >>> them.
> >>> I knew what it was 30 years ago.
>
> >>> Might be too late, but anyone know what the name is.
>
> >> I'm going on 13 years with my current compressor and it work like
> >> the day I bought it. =A0I think i remember letting a few ounces of wat=
er
> >> out of it several years ago. =A0Yes, it was brown.
>
> >> To the best of my knowledge, emptying water is important to keep water
> >> out of your pneumatic tools and the finish material you might be
> >> spraying using the compressor.
>
> >> I don't think it affects the performance of the compressor.
>
> > Years ago I read about a tank having a catastrophic failure. It didn't
> > just pinhole, it blew from rust.
>
> > So I worry, I wanted to bring this into the basement. My current one
> > wakes me up at night when I forget to shut it...
>
> > This one will be quieter if I forget. But I need to know it will be ok.
>
> I keep hearing about it, too, but it's always a friend of a friend of an
> uncle's boss.
> And I hear about it being from rust, too, but it's never confirmed.
> There are always other factors responsible when investigations are done.
> I've seen articles about talks in big shops "exploding" and causing
> damage and injuries.
> These are usually big, big tanks and the injured were standing nearby
> and got cut by metal shards still attached to the tank.
>
> 13-20 gallon tank isn't going to "explode" with enough force to cause
> the kind of damage you read about. BTW, when the pressure in mine gets
> to high, the pressure release valve lets out a bunch of air. If you're
> doesn't have one of those, it's probably a good idea to instal one.
>
> --
>
> =A0 -MIKE-
>
> =A0 "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
> =A0 =A0 =A0--Elvin Jones =A0(1927-2004)
> =A0 --
> =A0http://mikedrums.com
> =A0 [email protected]
> =A0 ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

http://www.cpsc.gov/PageFiles/80175/sanborn2.pdf

"woodchucker" wrote:

> When I got it home still did not hear water in it...
> opened up the petcock after charging it up and holy crap the most
> rusted
> water... and probably a pint to quart of water came out.
------------------------------------------------
So what else is knew?
------------------------------------------------
> Well, this tank hadn't been used for years the owner said. I let the
> water out of my tank weekly, how long do you let it sit there.
> I figure that years of sitting means deep rust inside. Based on the
> stink of that water, I'd have to say it's been in there a long time.
--------------------------------------------------
So the owner is a little forgetful.

Question: What is the condition of the relief valve?
----------------------------------------------------
> So I worry, I wanted to bring this into the basement. My current one
> wakes me up at night when I forget to shut it...
------------------------------------------------------
IMHO, only a fool would keep and air compressor in the basement
or other confined space.

When it comes to pressurized vessels around your home, assume
they are going to explode and plan accordingly.

Lew

Keith Nuttle <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:


> I would believe that the question is not how much water or how much
> rust, but what is the remaining thickness of the metal making up the
> tank. If the tank has sit for years has the bottom nearly rusted
> through?
>
> If it rusted and significantly decreased the thickness of the tank
> wall is it general or is it such that when it fails it will pin hole
> and leak slowly or fail catastrophically.
>
> I have never seen a tank fail, but.................
>

I saw one failed intentionally on TV. I think it was Time Warp where
they dropped a 5 or 10 gallon tank off a building on to a spike. Big
noise, lots of pressure released, and the tank went flying. Very fun to
watch.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On 05/05/2013 02:21 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 5/5/2013 5:16 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>> On 5/5/2013 4:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 5/5/13 2:53 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>>> When I got it home still did not hear water in it...
>>>> opened up the petcock after charging it up and holy crap the most
>>>> rusted
>>>> water... and probably a pint to quart of water came out.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So what chance do I have of saving this tank?
>>>
>>>
>>> I guess I don't understand what's to save.
>>> Does it still compress air?
>>> You drained out the water.
>>> Put a filter on the output and use it.
>>>
>>> I think we'd all be surprised by how much water and rust are on the
>>> inside of the tanks we use every day. :-)
>>>
>>>
>> Well, this tank hadn't been used for years the owner said. I let the
>> water out of my tank weekly, how long do you let it sit there.
>> I figure that years of sitting means deep rust inside. Based on the
>> stink of that water, I'd have to say it's been in there a long time.
>>
> I also remember that there used to be an additive to tanks to protect them.
> I knew what it was 30 years ago.
>
> Might be too late, but anyone know what the name is.
>
Don't know about that stuff, but I put the HF automatic compressor drain
on mine:

<http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result?q=automatic+compressor+drain>

I did have to fart around and replace the plastic tubing with copper
tubing. It's been working fine for about 12 years.



--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 5/5/2013 6:46 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> woodchucker wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> So what chance do I have of saving this tank? Where I used to live we
>> had a scales air compressor place nearby but they closed... I don't
>> find any of them around any more.. not close by.
>> The rust on the outside is all superficial and can be sanded and
>> painted ... I need to get into the tank with a 3/4 square end and
>> see.. Anyone have some real info on how to treat this?
>>
>
> You can buy sealers that you can pour into the tank after you dry it out
> (throw some rocks in it, shake them around good first). Look for gas tank
> sealers. A compressor tank will go for years like that though. Hard to say
> without seeing the tank, knocking on it to see how the steel sounds, etc.,
> but just because it poured out rusty water is not cause to get too worried
> just yet.
>

"just yet". LOL.
I like that. It's kinda like when your dentist says, "OOPS!

"-MIKE-" <

> 13-20 gallon tank isn't going to "explode" with enough force to
> cause
> the kind of damage you read about. BTW, when the pressure in mine
> gets
> to high, the pressure release valve lets out a bunch of air. If
> you're
> doesn't have one of those, it's probably a good idea to instal one.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't want to rain on your parade, but how big do you think those
pressure
cookers in Boston were/are?

BTW, a pressure relief valve is a must.

Even your hot water tank has one.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:

>> Don't want to rain on your parade, but how big do you think those
>> pressure
>> cookers in Boston were/are?
>>
>> BTW, a pressure relief valve is a must.
>>
>> Even your hot water tank has one.
------------------------------------------------------------------

"-MIKE-" wrote:

> I hope you're joking.
> There was a lot more than air in those things.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Absolutely not kidding, shrapnel is shrapnel regardless of the source.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:

> Don't want to rain on your parade, but how big do you think those
> pressure
> cookers in Boston were/are?
>
> BTW, a pressure relief valve is a must.
>
> Even your hot water tank has one.
------------------------------------------------------------------

"-MIKE-" wrote:

> I hope you're joking.
> There was a lot more than air in those things.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Lew Hodgett wrote:

> Absolutely not kidding, shrapnel is shrapnel regardless of the
> source.
------------------------------------------------------------------

"-MIKE-" wrote:

> That's kind of the point. There is no shrapnel when an air tank
> "explodes."
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Lew Hodgett wrote:

What do you call the parts of the vessel that are created when
a vessel bursts?

Chopped liver?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"-MIKE-" wrote:

> Why do I keep putting explodes in quotation marks? Because of the
> very
> misconception you have and others are having. The energy from a
> bursting
> air tank is no where near enough to cause shrapnel.
>
> The energy caused by gun powder is many multitudes higher than an
> air
> tank. The velocity of the explosion is also many magnitudes higher.
>
> Oh, and last time I looked at air compressors, non of the tanks were
> packed with ball bearings, either. sheesh.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Lew Hodgett wrote:

You seem to have difficulty understanding what is written.

I made no mention of gun powder, ball bearings or any other items of
IBS
(Intellectual Bull Shit) you attempt to introduce to confuse the
issue.

My comment simply stated that the size of the vessel is totally
independent of it's ability to raise the havoc created if it were to
burst
in an area where people were assembled.

What causes a vessel to exceed design specifications and fail
by bursting is a totally different discussion.

What remains relevant is that if a vessel bursts in an occupied area,
chances are pretty good that somebody is going to get hurt.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Lew

On Sun, 05 May 2013 17:16:51 -0400, woodchucker <[email protected]>
wrote:



>>
>>
>Well, this tank hadn't been used for years the owner said. I let the
>water out of my tank weekly, how long do you let it sit there.
>I figure that years of sitting means deep rust inside. Based on the
>stink of that water, I'd have to say it's been in there a long time.

May have been enough oil mixed in there so it was protected. The wet
portion may be better than the dry portion.

woodchucker wrote:
> Hey,
> I bought a compressor from a garage sale yesterday.
> Paid $20, seems to be between 13 and 20 gallons.
> What I wanted was an oil type compressor that uses a belt.
>
> I could not take the oil less type of noise anymore.
>
> I thought I was taking a risk, pretty rusted on the outside, but
> didn't appear deeply rusted. I shook the thing did not hear water in
> it (WRONG)...
>
> When I got it home still did not hear water in it...
> opened up the petcock after charging it up and holy crap the most
> rusted water... and probably a pint to quart of water came out.
>
>
> So what chance do I have of saving this tank? Where I used to live we
> had a scales air compressor place nearby but they closed... I don't
> find any of them around any more.. not close by.
> The rust on the outside is all superficial and can be sanded and
> painted ... I need to get into the tank with a 3/4 square end and
> see.. Anyone have some real info on how to treat this?
>
> Thanks.

From Wikipedia:

--- begin quote
Phosphoric acid may be used as a "rust converter", by direct application to
rusted iron, steel tools, or surfaces. The phosphoric acid converts
reddish-brown iron(III) oxide, Fe2O3 (rust) to black ferric phosphate,
FePO4.

"Rust converter" is sometimes a greenish liquid suitable for dipping (in the
same sort of acid bath as is used for pickling metal), but it is more often
formulated as a gel, commonly called "naval jelly". It is sometimes sold
under other names, such as "rust remover" or "rust killer". As a thick gel,
it may be applied to sloping, vertical, or even overhead surfaces.

After treatment, the black ferric-phosphate coating can be scrubbed off,
leaving a fresh metal surface. Multiple applications of phosphoric acid may
be required to remove all rust. The black phosphate coating can also be left
in place, where it will provide moderate further corrosion resistance (such
protection is also provided by the superficially similar Parkerizing and
blued electrochemical conversion coating processes).

--- end quote

This is how "black pipe" (used for natural gas distribution) is created.



And, from one blogger:

"Look for it as Metal Prep oluton. It's available at any lumber yard, borg,
or hardware store in quarts and gallons in plastic bottles. I use Jasco out
of blind brand loyalty but it' a good consistant product. It has tuff in it
that makes it work better than the plain acid. I dilute it 10 to 1 in a 5
gallon pail. When the blue color fades the acid has pooped out so add more.

"It's sewer safe when exhausted. Or since the spent solution is mostly iron
phosphate it makes good fertilizer. Run it through a proportioning squirt
nozzle and water your flowers."

On 5/5/2013 5:16 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 5/5/2013 4:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 5/5/13 2:53 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>> When I got it home still did not hear water in it...
>>> opened up the petcock after charging it up and holy crap the most rusted
>>> water... and probably a pint to quart of water came out.
>>>
>>>
>>> So what chance do I have of saving this tank?
>>
>>
>> I guess I don't understand what's to save.
>> Does it still compress air?
>> You drained out the water.
>> Put a filter on the output and use it.
>>
>> I think we'd all be surprised by how much water and rust are on the
>> inside of the tanks we use every day. :-)
>>
>>
> Well, this tank hadn't been used for years the owner said. I let the
> water out of my tank weekly, how long do you let it sit there.
> I figure that years of sitting means deep rust inside. Based on the
> stink of that water, I'd have to say it's been in there a long time.
>
I also remember that there used to be an additive to tanks to protect them.
I knew what it was 30 years ago.

Might be too late, but anyone know what the name is.

--
Jeff

On 5/5/2013 4:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 5/5/13 2:53 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>> When I got it home still did not hear water in it...
>> opened up the petcock after charging it up and holy crap the most rusted
>> water... and probably a pint to quart of water came out.
>>
>>
>> So what chance do I have of saving this tank?
>
>
> I guess I don't understand what's to save.
> Does it still compress air?
> You drained out the water.
> Put a filter on the output and use it.
>
> I think we'd all be surprised by how much water and rust are on the
> inside of the tanks we use every day. :-)
>
>
Well, this tank hadn't been used for years the owner said. I let the
water out of my tank weekly, how long do you let it sit there.
I figure that years of sitting means deep rust inside. Based on the
stink of that water, I'd have to say it's been in there a long time.

--
Jeff

I know it isn't near as much of an adventure when compared to acid
washes, cleaning rust and sealing, ultrasound inspections, and all
other kinds of solutions, but why not just buy a new tank and be done
with it?

http://tinyurl.com/cptqhe4

You could even wait for the ever present 20% off coupon.

We have done this to several compressors over the years. I have seen
tanks leak, but never rupture. What I see is tanks damaged badly
enough from dropping the compressors while loading or unloading them
for daily use, loading material on top of them, and then just plain
wear and tear from carrying them from job to job.

To do this easily, the original tank assembly is bypassed or removed,
and in some cases the motor/head is mounted to something else, and
this tank along with a manifold is used to replace the original. You
cannot mount a motor/head to this as purchased, so this is a perfect
time to put the compressor in its own little corner and the tank out
of the way. All you need to connect the two is inexpensive air hose.

Not as much fun as some of the ideas here, but if you leave the old
compressor on its original pinnings, you can be up and running with
one of these tanks in about 20 minutes. I have one of these (bought
mine at Northern) and it works great. I like the extra tank capacity,
too.

Robert

On Sun, 05 May 2013 17:16:51 -0400, woodchucker <[email protected]>
>Well, this tank hadn't been used for years the owner said. I let the
>water out of my tank weekly, how long do you let it sit there.
>I figure that years of sitting means deep rust inside. Based on the
>stink of that water, I'd have to say it's been in there a long time.

In other words, you're afraid that the tank might be on the verge of
blowing up in your face, right?

Compression takes in poor condition, usually develop pinhole leaks
first, which would indicate that it's time for you to replace it. Of
course, you could replace it now, but most people continue to use them
until they start to leak.

In other words, you can use it until there's a problem.

On 5/5/2013 6:45 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 5/5/13 4:21 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>> On 5/5/2013 5:16 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>> On 5/5/2013 4:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 5/5/13 2:53 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>>>> When I got it home still did not hear water in it...
>>>>> opened up the petcock after charging it up and holy crap the most
>>>>> rusted
>>>>> water... and probably a pint to quart of water came out.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So what chance do I have of saving this tank?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I guess I don't understand what's to save.
>>>> Does it still compress air?
>>>> You drained out the water.
>>>> Put a filter on the output and use it.
>>>>
>>>> I think we'd all be surprised by how much water and rust are on the
>>>> inside of the tanks we use every day. :-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Well, this tank hadn't been used for years the owner said. I let the
>>> water out of my tank weekly, how long do you let it sit there.
>>> I figure that years of sitting means deep rust inside. Based on the
>>> stink of that water, I'd have to say it's been in there a long time.
>>>
>> I also remember that there used to be an additive to tanks to protect
>> them.
>> I knew what it was 30 years ago.
>>
>> Might be too late, but anyone know what the name is.
>>
>
> I'm going on 13 years with my current compressor and it work like
> the day I bought it. I think i remember letting a few ounces of water
> out of it several years ago. Yes, it was brown.
>
> To the best of my knowledge, emptying water is important to keep water
> out of your pneumatic tools and the finish material you might be
> spraying using the compressor.
>
> I don't think it affects the performance of the compressor.
>
>
Years ago I read about a tank having a catastrophic failure. It didn't
just pinhole, it blew from rust.

So I worry, I wanted to bring this into the basement. My current one
wakes me up at night when I forget to shut it...

This one will be quieter if I forget. But I need to know it will be ok.
--
Jeff

On 5/5/2013 9:56 PM, HeyBub wrote:
> woodchucker wrote:
>> Hey,
>> I bought a compressor from a garage sale yesterday.
>> Paid $20, seems to be between 13 and 20 gallons.
>> What I wanted was an oil type compressor that uses a belt.
>>
>> I could not take the oil less type of noise anymore.
>>
>> I thought I was taking a risk, pretty rusted on the outside, but
>> didn't appear deeply rusted. I shook the thing did not hear water in
>> it (WRONG)...
>>
>> When I got it home still did not hear water in it...
>> opened up the petcock after charging it up and holy crap the most
>> rusted water... and probably a pint to quart of water came out.
>>
>>
>> So what chance do I have of saving this tank? Where I used to live we
>> had a scales air compressor place nearby but they closed... I don't
>> find any of them around any more.. not close by.
>> The rust on the outside is all superficial and can be sanded and
>> painted ... I need to get into the tank with a 3/4 square end and
>> see.. Anyone have some real info on how to treat this?
>>
>> Thanks.
>
> From Wikipedia:
>
> --- begin quote
> Phosphoric acid may be used as a "rust converter", by direct application to
> rusted iron, steel tools, or surfaces. The phosphoric acid converts
> reddish-brown iron(III) oxide, Fe2O3 (rust) to black ferric phosphate,
> FePO4.
>
> "Rust converter" is sometimes a greenish liquid suitable for dipping (in the
> same sort of acid bath as is used for pickling metal), but it is more often
> formulated as a gel, commonly called "naval jelly". It is sometimes sold
> under other names, such as "rust remover" or "rust killer". As a thick gel,
> it may be applied to sloping, vertical, or even overhead surfaces.
>
> After treatment, the black ferric-phosphate coating can be scrubbed off,
> leaving a fresh metal surface. Multiple applications of phosphoric acid may
> be required to remove all rust. The black phosphate coating can also be left
> in place, where it will provide moderate further corrosion resistance (such
> protection is also provided by the superficially similar Parkerizing and
> blued electrochemical conversion coating processes).
>
> --- end quote
>
> This is how "black pipe" (used for natural gas distribution) is created.
>
>
>
> And, from one blogger:
>
> "Look for it as Metal Prep oluton. It's available at any lumber yard, borg,
> or hardware store in quarts and gallons in plastic bottles. I use Jasco out
> of blind brand loyalty but it' a good consistant product. It has tuff in it
> that makes it work better than the plain acid. I dilute it 10 to 1 in a 5
> gallon pail. When the blue color fades the acid has pooped out so add more.
>
> "It's sewer safe when exhausted. Or since the spent solution is mostly iron
> phosphate it makes good fertilizer. Run it through a proportioning squirt
> nozzle and water your flowers."
>
>
So if I can't scrub it off, will it still work?

--
Jeff

On 5/5/2013 8:02 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "woodchucker" wrote:
>
>> When I got it home still did not hear water in it...
>> opened up the petcock after charging it up and holy crap the most
>> rusted
>> water... and probably a pint to quart of water came out.
> ------------------------------------------------
> So what else is knew?
> ------------------------------------------------
>> Well, this tank hadn't been used for years the owner said. I let the
>> water out of my tank weekly, how long do you let it sit there.
>> I figure that years of sitting means deep rust inside. Based on the
>> stink of that water, I'd have to say it's been in there a long time.
> --------------------------------------------------
> So the owner is a little forgetful.
>
> Question: What is the condition of the relief valve?
> ----------------------------------------------------
>> So I worry, I wanted to bring this into the basement. My current one
>> wakes me up at night when I forget to shut it...
> ------------------------------------------------------
> IMHO, only a fool would keep and air compressor in the basement
> or other confined space.
That might be true, guess I am that fool.
So I guess in your mind my garage might be better. In my mind neither is
great. But because it is in the basement it gets taken care of way more
than it would in the garage.

>
> When it comes to pressurized vessels around your home, assume
> they are going to explode and plan accordingly.
>
> Lew
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Jeff

On 5/5/2013 9:51 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
> woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Well, this tank hadn't been used for years the owner said. I let the
>> water out of my tank weekly, how long do you let it sit there.
>> I figure that years of sitting means deep rust inside. Based on the
>> stink of that water, I'd have to say it's been in there a long time.
>
> When there's a lot of water in the tank, "hadn't been used for years" is waaaaay better than
> "used it every week".
>
> Water, by itself, doesn't cause rust. For iron to rust, two things are necessary: water and
> oxygen. Once all the oxygen in the tank has been converted to iron oxide, there will be no
> further rusting.
>
> Case in point: hydronic (hot water) heating systems -- such as the one in my house --
> typically have cast-iron boilers, and many (mine included) have cast-iron radiators as well.
> Water normally sits in these systems for *decades* without any damage to the cast-iron
> components. Yes, there's some rusting internally, but not much. Once the small amount of
> dissolved oxygen is used up, the rusting process stops.
>

Makes sense.

--
Jeff

On 5/5/2013 8:05 PM, Sonny wrote:
> Well, it may have had a pint/quart of water, but the rusting factor would depend on the amount of oxygen reacting with the iron to produce a quantity of rust. In a closed container, the rust may be much less than if contents were exposed to more open air.
>
> Not just open it, but can you remove the whole petcock assembly, without breaking it? What size hole is in the tank, there, 1/2", 3/4"? If you can remove the assembly, rinse out the tank, well, then rinse with denatured alcohol. Allow to dry, as best it can, before reinstalling the petcock.
>
> If I had a questionably badly rusted tank, I might entertain the idea of rinsing/sloshing the bottom of the tank with muratic acid, to see what all might be washed out. Rinse with water, afterwards. I would think the very bottom is rusted the most, if significantly.
>
> Sonny
>
Sounds like that might not be a bad idea. Gotta see if I can get a 3/4
square drive to remove the 2 plugs, it would allow me to ,
the petcock I usually replace with 90 street and galv pipe to a ball valve.
Don't understand petcocks.. pain the ass and the ball is worth the money
to quickly release the water.

how do I neutralize the muriatic acid in the tank after, just water or
baking soda... Will that clean off most of the loose rust?

--
Jeff

woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Well, this tank hadn't been used for years the owner said. I let the
> water out of my tank weekly, how long do you let it sit there.
> I figure that years of sitting means deep rust inside. Based on the
> stink of that water, I'd have to say it's been in there a long time.

When there's a lot of water in the tank, "hadn't been used for years" is waaaaay better than
"used it every week".

Water, by itself, doesn't cause rust. For iron to rust, two things are necessary: water and
oxygen. Once all the oxygen in the tank has been converted to iron oxide, there will be no
further rusting.

Case in point: hydronic (hot water) heating systems -- such as the one in my house --
typically have cast-iron boilers, and many (mine included) have cast-iron radiators as well.
Water normally sits in these systems for *decades* without any damage to the cast-iron
components. Yes, there's some rusting internally, but not much. Once the small amount of
dissolved oxygen is used up, the rusting process stops.

Keith Nuttle <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> I would believe that a cast iron boiler is several times thicker that an
> air compressor tank. I am sure the radiator is.
>
Indeed it is. But the water sits there longer, too. The point remains that once the oxygen in the
system is used up, no further oxidation (read: rusting) can take place unless fresh oxygen is
introduced.

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in news:51872d87$0$28468$c3e8da3
[email protected]:

>
>
>
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>>> Don't want to rain on your parade, but how big do you think those
>>> pressure
>>> cookers in Boston were/are?
>>>
>>> BTW, a pressure relief valve is a must.
>>>
>>> Even your hot water tank has one.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "-MIKE-" wrote:
>
>> I hope you're joking.
>> There was a lot more than air in those things.
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Absolutely not kidding, shrapnel is shrapnel regardless of the source.

For someone who claims to be an engineer, you have some odd notions. Those pressure
cookers were ruptured by exploding gunpowder. Do you *really* think that the pressure
developed by an air compressor (9 to 10 atmospheres is typical) is anywhere nearly
comparable to the pressure developed by igniting gunpowder in a small confined volume?
Do you *really* think that a bursting compressor tank will create the same kind of
"shrapnel" as a pressure cooker that was packed with ball bearings and nails?

Larry Blanchard <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> On Mon, 06 May 2013 11:34:44 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:
>
>> Do you *really*
>> think that the pressure developed by an air compressor (9 to 10
>> atmospheres is typical) is anywhere nearly comparable to the pressure
>> developed by igniting gunpowder in a small confined volume?
>
> I found this:
>
> "One gram of blackpowder gives you 718 calories of heat, 270 cubic
> centimeters of gas,"
>
> So if we knew how much powder the bombers used and the volume of the
> pressure cooker we could come up with a pressure.
>
Typical pressure cooker is about 5 liters. It would take 5000 / 270 = 18.5 grams of black
powder to produce 5 l of gas at 1 atm pressure -- so developing a pressure of, say, 25
atmospheres would require 25 times that much: 463 g, or just over a pound.

And that's assuming there's nothing else in the pressure cooker, which we know is not the
case. Suppose the interior volume was reduced by half, by the ball bearings and nails
these guys added. In that case, we're talking a free volume of only about 2.5 liters, and a
kilogram of powder would generate pressure well over 100 atmospheres.

On Sun, 5 May 2013 17:05:31 -0700 (PDT), Sonny <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Well, it may have had a pint/quart of water, but the rusting factor would depend on the amount of oxygen reacting with the iron to produce a quantity of rust. In a closed container, the rust may be much less than if contents were exposed to more open air.
>
>Not just open it, but can you remove the whole petcock assembly, without breaking it? What size hole is in the tank, there, 1/2", 3/4"? If you can remove the assembly, rinse out the tank, well, then rinse with denatured alcohol. Allow to dry, as best it can, before reinstalling the petcock.
>
>If I had a questionably badly rusted tank, I might entertain the idea of rinsing/sloshing the bottom of the tank with muratic acid, to see what all might be washed out. Rinse with water, afterwards. I would think the very bottom is rusted the most, if significantly.
>
>Sonny
Buy , rent, or borrow an "inspection camera" - remove a fitting and
poke the camra in to see what it looks like. If you can't tell, rince
the tank out untill it is clean and try again. Any significant pitting
will show up.

On Sunday, May 5, 2013 8:57:31 PM UTC-5, woodchucker wrote:
> Sounds like that might not be a bad idea. how do I neutralize the muria=
tic acid in the tank after, just water or baking soda...=20

Flush with water. It shouldn't take much acid (1-2 cups) to rinse/slosh th=
e bottom of the tank, where there would likely be the most rust. Concrete =
is cleaned with muratic acid and simply rinsed with water. The old saying =
is to add acid to water, to prevent a splattering reaction when mixing the =
two. In this situation, adding water to the acid (to neutralize it), insid=
e the tank, shouldn't be a problem, plus it would be difficult to pour out =
the acid, first, into a safe container without having it pour irradically f=
rom the petcock hole. Further, pour the mix into a 5 gal bucket of water, =
to further dilute it.

> Will that clean off most of the loose rust?=20

Maybe/yes, to some extent. I've used it to assist in removing rust on stuf=
f at home(shop) and used it on (our past) boat dock surfaces. Since you ca=
n't readily see inside the tank, we don't know if there is significant rust=
in there, or not. Muratic acid is more readily available, I think, and wi=
ll help loosen at least some rust without having to scrub, since you can't =
readily scrub the inside. Any potential loose rust may block the petcock, =
in the future, so removing the most you can is preferrable. Using acid is =
the easiest way, IMO, hence my entertaining the idea of using the acid as a=
"rinse" or possible (assistant) rust remover.

Summer jobs, during college days, I worked on a dredge boat/barge along the=
Gulf coast. There were times when we'd clean parts of the deck for repain=
ting. An acid was used to help remove (or treat?) the rusted areas. I don=
't recall what acid was used. We'd slosh it on, do some minimal scrubbing,=
then rinse with water. On tough or deeply rusted areas, we'd use a grinde=
r to remove the rust, best we could. Apparently the acid "treatment" did s=
ome kind of good.

Muratic acid is pretty potent. If spilled on the outside of the tank, it w=
ill likely peel the paint off, fast.

Sonny

On Sun, 5 May 2013 21:11:50 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
>> I hope you're joking.
>> There was a lot more than air in those things.
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>Absolutely not kidding, shrapnel is shrapnel regardless of the source.

Those pressure cookers were shrapnel accelerated by explosive. That's
considerably different than a compressor container giving way to air
pressure. Almost invariably, the compressor will burst at a pinhole or
maybe a little larger area.

On Sun, 05 May 2013 23:19:01 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 5/5/13 11:11 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>
>>>> Don't want to rain on your parade, but how big do you think those
>>>> pressure
>>>> cookers in Boston were/are?
>>>>
>>>> BTW, a pressure relief valve is a must.
>>>>
>>>> Even your hot water tank has one.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> "-MIKE-" wrote:
>>
>>> I hope you're joking.
>>> There was a lot more than air in those things.
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>> Absolutely not kidding, shrapnel is shrapnel regardless of the source.
>>
>> Lew
>>
>
>That's kind of the point. There is no shrapnel when an air tank "explodes."
>Why do I keep putting explodes in quotation marks? Because of the very
>misconception you have and others are having. The energy from a bursting
>air tank is no where near enough to cause shrapnel.
>
>The energy caused by gun powder is many multitudes higher than an air
>tank. The velocity of the explosion is also many magnitudes higher.
>
>Oh, and last time I looked at air compressors, non of the tanks were
>packed with ball bearings, either. sheesh.


OK, when it comes to air receiver failures that cause damage or
injury, they are virtually NEVER rust related. They are almost always
brittle fractures - related to a bad weld or a fatigue crack - most
often a fatigue crack related to a bad weld. This caused a
catastrophic failure and instand decompression - which DOES cause
serious structural damage and can cause grievious injuries.

Rust failure is virtually ALWAYS a gradual failure, which causes
little if any damage or injury in the average small air receiver

On 5/5/13 2:53 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> When I got it home still did not hear water in it...
> opened up the petcock after charging it up and holy crap the most rusted
> water... and probably a pint to quart of water came out.
>
>
> So what chance do I have of saving this tank?


I guess I don't understand what's to save.
Does it still compress air?
You drained out the water.
Put a filter on the output and use it.

I think we'd all be surprised by how much water and rust are on the
inside of the tanks we use every day. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 5/5/2013 5:16 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 5/5/2013 4:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 5/5/13 2:53 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>> When I got it home still did not hear water in it...
>>> opened up the petcock after charging it up and holy crap the most rusted
>>> water... and probably a pint to quart of water came out.
>>>
>>>
>>> So what chance do I have of saving this tank?
>>
>>
>> I guess I don't understand what's to save.
>> Does it still compress air?
>> You drained out the water.
>> Put a filter on the output and use it.
>>
>> I think we'd all be surprised by how much water and rust are on the
>> inside of the tanks we use every day. :-)
>>
>>
> Well, this tank hadn't been used for years the owner said. I let the
> water out of my tank weekly, how long do you let it sit there.
> I figure that years of sitting means deep rust inside. Based on the
> stink of that water, I'd have to say it's been in there a long time.
>
I would believe that the question is not how much water or how much
rust, but what is the remaining thickness of the metal making up the
tank. If the tank has sit for years has the bottom nearly rusted through?

If it rusted and significantly decreased the thickness of the tank wall
is it general or is it such that when it fails it will pin hole and leak
slowly or fail catastrophically.

I have never seen a tank fail, but.................

On 5/5/13 4:21 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 5/5/2013 5:16 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>> On 5/5/2013 4:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 5/5/13 2:53 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>>> When I got it home still did not hear water in it...
>>>> opened up the petcock after charging it up and holy crap the most
>>>> rusted
>>>> water... and probably a pint to quart of water came out.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So what chance do I have of saving this tank?
>>>
>>>
>>> I guess I don't understand what's to save.
>>> Does it still compress air?
>>> You drained out the water.
>>> Put a filter on the output and use it.
>>>
>>> I think we'd all be surprised by how much water and rust are on the
>>> inside of the tanks we use every day. :-)
>>>
>>>
>> Well, this tank hadn't been used for years the owner said. I let the
>> water out of my tank weekly, how long do you let it sit there.
>> I figure that years of sitting means deep rust inside. Based on the
>> stink of that water, I'd have to say it's been in there a long time.
>>
> I also remember that there used to be an additive to tanks to protect them.
> I knew what it was 30 years ago.
>
> Might be too late, but anyone know what the name is.
>

I'm going on 13 years with my current compressor and it work like
the day I bought it. I think i remember letting a few ounces of water
out of it several years ago. Yes, it was brown.

To the best of my knowledge, emptying water is important to keep water
out of your pneumatic tools and the finish material you might be
spraying using the compressor.

I don't think it affects the performance of the compressor.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 5/5/13 6:26 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 5/5/2013 6:45 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 5/5/13 4:21 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>> On 5/5/2013 5:16 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>>> On 5/5/2013 4:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 5/5/13 2:53 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>>>>> When I got it home still did not hear water in it...
>>>>>> opened up the petcock after charging it up and holy crap the most
>>>>>> rusted
>>>>>> water... and probably a pint to quart of water came out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So what chance do I have of saving this tank?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess I don't understand what's to save.
>>>>> Does it still compress air?
>>>>> You drained out the water.
>>>>> Put a filter on the output and use it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we'd all be surprised by how much water and rust are on the
>>>>> inside of the tanks we use every day. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Well, this tank hadn't been used for years the owner said. I let the
>>>> water out of my tank weekly, how long do you let it sit there.
>>>> I figure that years of sitting means deep rust inside. Based on the
>>>> stink of that water, I'd have to say it's been in there a long time.
>>>>
>>> I also remember that there used to be an additive to tanks to protect
>>> them.
>>> I knew what it was 30 years ago.
>>>
>>> Might be too late, but anyone know what the name is.
>>>
>>
>> I'm going on 13 years with my current compressor and it work like
>> the day I bought it. I think i remember letting a few ounces of water
>> out of it several years ago. Yes, it was brown.
>>
>> To the best of my knowledge, emptying water is important to keep water
>> out of your pneumatic tools and the finish material you might be
>> spraying using the compressor.
>>
>> I don't think it affects the performance of the compressor.
>>
>>
> Years ago I read about a tank having a catastrophic failure. It didn't
> just pinhole, it blew from rust.
>
> So I worry, I wanted to bring this into the basement. My current one
> wakes me up at night when I forget to shut it...
>
> This one will be quieter if I forget. But I need to know it will be ok.


I keep hearing about it, too, but it's always a friend of a friend of an
uncle's boss.
And I hear about it being from rust, too, but it's never confirmed.
There are always other factors responsible when investigations are done.
I've seen articles about talks in big shops "exploding" and causing
damage and injuries.
These are usually big, big tanks and the injured were standing nearby
and got cut by metal shards still attached to the tank.

13-20 gallon tank isn't going to "explode" with enough force to cause
the kind of damage you read about. BTW, when the pressure in mine gets
to high, the pressure release valve lets out a bunch of air. If you're
doesn't have one of those, it's probably a good idea to instal one.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

woodchucker wrote:

>
>
> So what chance do I have of saving this tank? Where I used to live we
> had a scales air compressor place nearby but they closed... I don't
> find any of them around any more.. not close by.
> The rust on the outside is all superficial and can be sanded and
> painted ... I need to get into the tank with a 3/4 square end and
> see.. Anyone have some real info on how to treat this?
>

You can buy sealers that you can pour into the tank after you dry it out
(throw some rocks in it, shake them around good first). Look for gas tank
sealers. A compressor tank will go for years like that though. Hard to say
without seeing the tank, knocking on it to see how the steel sounds, etc.,
but just because it poured out rusty water is not cause to get too worried
just yet.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

woodchucker wrote:

> Well, this tank hadn't been used for years the owner said. I let the
> water out of my tank weekly, how long do you let it sit there.
> I figure that years of sitting means deep rust inside. Based on the
> stink of that water, I'd have to say it's been in there a long time.

You'd probably be surprised at how many comressors never get drained, and
sit with water in them for years. Fire it up and use it. You'll find out
if it leaks.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

woodchucker wrote:

> Years ago I read about a tank having a catastrophic failure. It didn't
> just pinhole, it blew from rust.
>
> So I worry, I wanted to bring this into the basement. My current one
> wakes me up at night when I forget to shut it...
>

If that really did happen, it's the rare event. Usually when the tank
rusts, it rusts through in pinholes.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Doug Winterburn wrote:

> Don't know about that stuff, but I put the HF automatic compressor
> drain on mine:
>
> <http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result?q=automatic+compressor+drain>
>
> I did have to fart around and replace the plastic tubing with copper
> tubing. It's been working fine for about 12 years.

I tried two of those damned things and finally went back to an elbow, a
valve and a length of pipe. I too had replaced the cheap hose with brake
line (in my case), but the damned valves both failed after only a couple or
a few weeks.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"-MIKE-" <
> There are always other factors responsible when
> investigations are done.
> I've seen articles about tanks in big shops
> "exploding" and causing
> damage and injuries.
> These are usually big, big tanks and the injured
> were standing nearby
> and got cut by metal shards still attached to
> the tank.

xxx
This sounds like an acetylene generator incident.
They were
common many years ago.
xxx

>
> 13-20 gallon tank isn't going to "explode" with
> enough force to cause
> the kind of damage you read about. BTW, when the
> pressure in mine gets
> to high, the pressure release valve lets out a
> bunch of air. If you're
> doesn't have one of those, it's probably a good
> idea to instal one.
>
>
> --
>
> -MIKE-
>

On 5/5/2013 9:51 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
> woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Well, this tank hadn't been used for years the owner said. I let the
>> water out of my tank weekly, how long do you let it sit there.
>> I figure that years of sitting means deep rust inside. Based on the
>> stink of that water, I'd have to say it's been in there a long time.
>
> When there's a lot of water in the tank, "hadn't been used for years" is waaaaay better than
> "used it every week".
>
> Water, by itself, doesn't cause rust. For iron to rust, two things are necessary: water and
> oxygen. Once all the oxygen in the tank has been converted to iron oxide, there will be no
> further rusting.
>
> Case in point: hydronic (hot water) heating systems -- such as the one in my house --
> typically have cast-iron boilers, and many (mine included) have cast-iron radiators as well.
> Water normally sits in these systems for *decades* without any damage to the cast-iron
> components. Yes, there's some rusting internally, but not much. Once the small amount of
> dissolved oxygen is used up, the rusting process stops.
>
I would believe that a cast iron boiler is several times thicker that an
air compressor tank. I am sure the radiator is.

On Sun, 05 May 2013 17:45:26 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:

> To the best of my knowledge, emptying water is important to keep water
> out of your pneumatic tools and the finish material you might be
> spraying using the compressor.
>
> I don't think it affects the performance of the compressor.

Well, it might just be the normal corporate CYA, but every compressor
manual I've seen says to drain on a regular basis - like every time if
you use it infrequently.

--
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and
carrying a cross.

On 5/5/13 9:38 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Sun, 05 May 2013 17:45:26 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> To the best of my knowledge, emptying water is important to keep water
>> out of your pneumatic tools and the finish material you might be
>> spraying using the compressor.
>>
>> I don't think it affects the performance of the compressor.
>
> Well, it might just be the normal corporate CYA, but every compressor
> manual I've seen says to drain on a regular basis - like every time if
> you use it infrequently.
>

As I wrote, you don't drain it because of some perceived danger or rust
build up.
You drain it to improve performance of the pneumatic tools using the
compressed air.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 5/5/13 10:24 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "-MIKE-" <
>
>> 13-20 gallon tank isn't going to "explode" with enough force to
>> cause
>> the kind of damage you read about. BTW, when the pressure in mine
>> gets
>> to high, the pressure release valve lets out a bunch of air. If
>> you're
>> doesn't have one of those, it's probably a good idea to instal one.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Don't want to rain on your parade, but how big do you think those
> pressure
> cookers in Boston were/are?
>
> BTW, a pressure relief valve is a must.
>
> Even your hot water tank has one.
>
> Lew
>

I hope you're joking.
There was a lot more than air in those things.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 5/5/13 11:11 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>>> Don't want to rain on your parade, but how big do you think those
>>> pressure
>>> cookers in Boston were/are?
>>>
>>> BTW, a pressure relief valve is a must.
>>>
>>> Even your hot water tank has one.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "-MIKE-" wrote:
>
>> I hope you're joking.
>> There was a lot more than air in those things.
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Absolutely not kidding, shrapnel is shrapnel regardless of the source.
>
> Lew
>

That's kind of the point. There is no shrapnel when an air tank "explodes."
Why do I keep putting explodes in quotation marks? Because of the very
misconception you have and others are having. The energy from a bursting
air tank is no where near enough to cause shrapnel.

The energy caused by gun powder is many multitudes higher than an air
tank. The velocity of the explosion is also many magnitudes higher.

Oh, and last time I looked at air compressors, non of the tanks were
packed with ball bearings, either. sheesh.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Mon, 06 May 2013 11:34:44 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:

> Do you *really*
> think that the pressure developed by an air compressor (9 to 10
> atmospheres is typical) is anywhere nearly comparable to the pressure
> developed by igniting gunpowder in a small confined volume?

I found this:

"One gram of blackpowder gives you 718 calories of heat, 270 cubic
centimeters of gas,"

So if we knew how much powder the bombers used and the volume of the
pressure cooker we could come up with a pressure.

--
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and
carrying a cross.

It's very rare for an air compressor tank to violently explode. In cases
where it did happen, usually there was defective construction, the
the compressor had been modified, relief valve stuck closed, etc. A
rusty tank will almost always fail with a pinhole leak or small crack.
I would turn the compressor upside down and tap all over the bottom with
a small hammer. You will hear or feel any thin spots.

You could also have it hydro-tested. This is a requirement for
industrial pressure vessles over a certain size in most states but
perhaps you could find someone willing to test your small compressor the
same way. I think you could do a fair job of testing it yourself by
filling the tank with water and then pressurizing it to about 10% over
it's nominal pressure rating. Personally, I would be satisifed with the
hammer-tap test.


--
Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one.

Larry W. - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org

On 5/7/13 7:56 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>> Don't want to rain on your parade, but how big do you think those
>> pressure
>> cookers in Boston were/are?
>>
>> BTW, a pressure relief valve is a must.
>>
>> Even your hot water tank has one.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "-MIKE-" wrote:
>
>> I hope you're joking.
>> There was a lot more than air in those things.
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>> Absolutely not kidding, shrapnel is shrapnel regardless of the
>> source.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "-MIKE-" wrote:
>
>> That's kind of the point. There is no shrapnel when an air tank
>> "explodes."
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
> What do you call the parts of the vessel that are created when
> a vessel bursts?
>
> Chopped liver?
>

Shrapnel: Fragments of a bomb, shell, or other object thrown out by an
explosion.
When an air tank fails from over pressure there is not enough energy to
create shrapnel.
Could a part come flying off, perhaps. But that is certainly a very
loose interpretation of the accepted definition when talking about true
explosions.


> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "-MIKE-" wrote:
>
>> Why do I keep putting explodes in quotation marks? Because of the
>> very
>> misconception you have and others are having. The energy from a
>> bursting
>> air tank is no where near enough to cause shrapnel.
>>
>> The energy caused by gun powder is many multitudes higher than an
>> air
>> tank. The velocity of the explosion is also many magnitudes higher.
>>
>> Oh, and last time I looked at air compressors, non of the tanks were
>> packed with ball bearings, either. sheesh.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
> You seem to have difficulty understanding what is written.
>
> I made no mention of gun powder, ball bearings or any other items of
> IBS
> (Intellectual Bull Shit) you attempt to introduce to confuse the
> issue.
>

Quit bullshitting and digging the hole deeper. We're talking air tanks
failing from over pressurization and you're the one who brought up the
marathon bombers' pressure cooker bombs. YOU are the one attempting to
confuse the issue by introducing a BOMB into a conversation about air
compressors.


> My comment simply stated that the size of the vessel is totally
> independent of it's ability to raise the havoc created if it were to
> burst in an area where people were assembled.
>
> What causes a vessel to exceed design specifications and fail
> by bursting is a totally different discussion.
>
> What remains relevant is that if a vessel bursts in an occupied area,
> chances are pretty good that somebody is going to get hurt.
>
> Nothing more, nothing less.
>
> Lew
>

I can pop a balloon ("vessel burst") in an occupied area? Who gets hurt?

There has to be enough energy to create the shrapnel. Even without
shrapnel, there would have to be a enough energy released to create a
pressure wave for anyone to be injured seriously. How do you not get that?

An air compressor "vessel" "bursting" has a tiny fraction of the energy
of a bomb. Aren't you the engineer, here? How do you not see that?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Sun, 05 May 2013 19:26:45 -0400, woodchucker <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 5/5/2013 6:45 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 5/5/13 4:21 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>> On 5/5/2013 5:16 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>>> On 5/5/2013 4:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 5/5/13 2:53 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>>>>> When I got it home still did not hear water in it...
>>>>>> opened up the petcock after charging it up and holy crap the most
>>>>>> rusted
>>>>>> water... and probably a pint to quart of water came out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So what chance do I have of saving this tank?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess I don't understand what's to save.
>>>>> Does it still compress air?
>>>>> You drained out the water.
>>>>> Put a filter on the output and use it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we'd all be surprised by how much water and rust are on the
>>>>> inside of the tanks we use every day. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Well, this tank hadn't been used for years the owner said. I let the
>>>> water out of my tank weekly, how long do you let it sit there.
>>>> I figure that years of sitting means deep rust inside. Based on the
>>>> stink of that water, I'd have to say it's been in there a long time.
>>>>
>>> I also remember that there used to be an additive to tanks to protect
>>> them.
>>> I knew what it was 30 years ago.
>>>
>>> Might be too late, but anyone know what the name is.
>>>
>>
>> I'm going on 13 years with my current compressor and it work like
>> the day I bought it. I think i remember letting a few ounces of water
>> out of it several years ago. Yes, it was brown.
>>
>> To the best of my knowledge, emptying water is important to keep water
>> out of your pneumatic tools and the finish material you might be
>> spraying using the compressor.
>>
>> I don't think it affects the performance of the compressor.
>>
>>
>Years ago I read about a tank having a catastrophic failure. It didn't
>just pinhole, it blew from rust.
>
>So I worry, I wanted to bring this into the basement. My current one
>wakes me up at night when I forget to shut it...
>
>This one will be quieter if I forget. But I need to know it will be ok.

I put mine in the garage and piped air from there. It might be a
little more of a challenge in this house. I'll see in a few weeks
(depends on exactly where walls line up - might be very simple).

On Sun, 05 May 2013 22:08:37 -0400, woodchucker <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 5/5/2013 9:56 PM, HeyBub wrote:
>> woodchucker wrote:
>>> Hey,
>>> I bought a compressor from a garage sale yesterday.
>>> Paid $20, seems to be between 13 and 20 gallons.
>>> What I wanted was an oil type compressor that uses a belt.
>>>
>>> I could not take the oil less type of noise anymore.
>>>
>>> I thought I was taking a risk, pretty rusted on the outside, but
>>> didn't appear deeply rusted. I shook the thing did not hear water in
>>> it (WRONG)...
>>>
>>> When I got it home still did not hear water in it...
>>> opened up the petcock after charging it up and holy crap the most
>>> rusted water... and probably a pint to quart of water came out.
>>>
>>>
>>> So what chance do I have of saving this tank? Where I used to live we
>>> had a scales air compressor place nearby but they closed... I don't
>>> find any of them around any more.. not close by.
>>> The rust on the outside is all superficial and can be sanded and
>>> painted ... I need to get into the tank with a 3/4 square end and
>>> see.. Anyone have some real info on how to treat this?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>
>> From Wikipedia:
>>
>> --- begin quote
>> Phosphoric acid may be used as a "rust converter", by direct application to
>> rusted iron, steel tools, or surfaces. The phosphoric acid converts
>> reddish-brown iron(III) oxide, Fe2O3 (rust) to black ferric phosphate,
>> FePO4.
>>
>> "Rust converter" is sometimes a greenish liquid suitable for dipping (in the
>> same sort of acid bath as is used for pickling metal), but it is more often
>> formulated as a gel, commonly called "naval jelly". It is sometimes sold
>> under other names, such as "rust remover" or "rust killer". As a thick gel,
>> it may be applied to sloping, vertical, or even overhead surfaces.
>>
>> After treatment, the black ferric-phosphate coating can be scrubbed off,
>> leaving a fresh metal surface. Multiple applications of phosphoric acid may
>> be required to remove all rust. The black phosphate coating can also be left
>> in place, where it will provide moderate further corrosion resistance (such
>> protection is also provided by the superficially similar Parkerizing and
>> blued electrochemical conversion coating processes).
>>
>> --- end quote
>>
>> This is how "black pipe" (used for natural gas distribution) is created.
>>
>>
>>
>> And, from one blogger:
>>
>> "Look for it as Metal Prep oluton. It's available at any lumber yard, borg,
>> or hardware store in quarts and gallons in plastic bottles. I use Jasco out
>> of blind brand loyalty but it' a good consistant product. It has tuff in it
>> that makes it work better than the plain acid. I dilute it 10 to 1 in a 5
>> gallon pail. When the blue color fades the acid has pooped out so add more.
>>
>> "It's sewer safe when exhausted. Or since the spent solution is mostly iron
>> phosphate it makes good fertilizer. Run it through a proportioning squirt
>> nozzle and water your flowers."
>>
>>
>So if I can't scrub it off, will it still work?
Yes - better than scrubbing it off. The iron phosphate helps prevent
further rusting.

On Sun, 05 May 2013 17:34:29 -0400, Keith Nuttle
<[email protected]> wrote:



>
>If it rusted and significantly decreased the thickness of the tank wall
>is it general or is it such that when it fails it will pin hole and leak
>slowly or fail catastrophically.
>
>I have never seen a tank fail, but.................


According to the inspector that does out tanks at work, they pin hole
rather than explode. In MA, tanks have to be inspected every two
years. They use an ultrasonic thing and it gives the wall thickness
and can be done while running.

On 5/5/2013 10:38 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Sun, 05 May 2013 17:45:26 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> To the best of my knowledge, emptying water is important to keep water
>> out of your pneumatic tools and the finish material you might be
>> spraying using the compressor.
>>
>> I don't think it affects the performance of the compressor.
>
> Well, it might just be the normal corporate CYA, but every compressor
> manual I've seen says to drain on a regular basis - like every time if
> you use it infrequently.
>

That just makes good sense too.
and it is probably not just CYA,



--
Jeff