EC

Electric Comet

15/04/2015 11:31 AM

first hand cut dovetail

thanks to Paul Sellers and whoever posted his link I did a dovetail by
hand

it didn't come out too bad
it's a little loose but I didn't use a vise so my sights were set low

I got a low priced saw that is 16 points and it was fine
I had some 3/8-inch oak at 2-1/2-inch wide

the hardest part was making it clear which pieces to remove and
which side of the lines to cut along

I drew a picture in my sketch book first to help clarify the joint

dovetails look nice but I think a box joint will be suitable for
many of the applications I am thinking about


I am undecided on which way the pins should point for say a
small knicknack box

I don't think there's a structural advantage but more of an
aesthetic

the pieces were just some scrap but I may actually make a small
box using this as a base















This topic has 9 replies

gg

graham

in reply to Electric Comet on 15/04/2015 11:31 AM

15/04/2015 12:48 PM

On 15/04/2015 12:31 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> thanks to Paul Sellers and whoever posted his link I did a dovetail by
> hand
>
> it didn't come out too bad
> it's a little loose but I didn't use a vise so my sights were set low
>
> I got a low priced saw that is 16 points and it was fine
> I had some 3/8-inch oak at 2-1/2-inch wide
>
> the hardest part was making it clear which pieces to remove and
> which side of the lines to cut along
>
> I drew a picture in my sketch book first to help clarify the joint
>
> dovetails look nice but I think a box joint will be suitable for
> many of the applications I am thinking about
>
>
> I am undecided on which way the pins should point for say a
> small knicknack box
>
> I don't think there's a structural advantage but more of an
> aesthetic
>
> the pieces were just some scrap but I may actually make a small
> box using this as a base
>
Did you cut the pins first or the tails?
Graham


--



gg

graham

in reply to Electric Comet on 15/04/2015 11:31 AM

17/04/2015 7:24 PM

On 17/04/2015 7:07 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Apr 2015 12:48:25 -0600
> graham <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Did you cut the pins first or the tails?
>
> the right way of course
> how else would Paul Sellers do it or teach it
>
There's no right way, just tradition. Brits
traditionally cut tails first whereas Europeans cut pins first.
In many cases it doesn't matter but when I tried pins first on
some US red oak, it was very difficult to cut precise tails in such
a coarse-grained wood. Matching the pins to "variable" tails would have
been much, much easier.
Graham

gg

graham

in reply to Electric Comet on 15/04/2015 11:31 AM

17/04/2015 8:31 PM

On 17/04/2015 8:11 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 19:24:52 -0600
> graham <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> There's no right way, just tradition. Brits
>> traditionally cut tails first whereas Europeans cut pins first.
>
> well i only know from watching one of his vids
> that's only about doing dovetails

I took classes from a couple of Germans who insisted on pins first. It
was easy when working with pine or spruce and I still have the first box
made that way. I also have the one I tried in red oak as a reminder!
>
> he has an interesting style that's easy for me to follow
>
>> In many cases it doesn't matter but when I tried pins first on
>> some US red oak, it was very difficult to cut precise tails in such
>> a coarse-grained wood. Matching the pins to "variable" tails would
>> have been much, much easier.
>
> i did the tails first and it seems without even trying that doing
> the pins first would be harder

I can assure you, it would have been.
>
> not sure what kind of oak this is
> it is very hard
>
I think the reason the Brits probably did tails first was that much of
their carcase work was in oak. Furthermore, drawers with blind dovetails
would have necessitated tails first and when you get into a habit.......

Nn

"Nick"

in reply to Electric Comet on 15/04/2015 11:31 AM

18/04/2015 4:10 PM


"Electric Comet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 20:31:04 -0600
> graham <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I took classes from a couple of Germans who insisted on pins first.
>> It was easy when working with pine or spruce and I still have the
>> first box made that way. I also have the one I tried in red oak as a
>> reminder!
>
> i should try it if for nothing more than gaining some insight
>
>> I can assure you, it would have been.
>
> fair warning
>
>> I think the reason the Brits probably did tails first was that much
>> of their carcase work was in oak. Furthermore, drawers with blind
>> dovetails would have necessitated tails first and when you get into a
>> habit.......
>
> i am learning as i go here
>
> i don't understand why tails first for a blind dovetail
> i looked at an image just now of one and couldn't unravel that
>
>
> i wasn't sure what a blind dovetail was so i looked it up
> i will not do blind dovetails
> i will not do blind dovetails
> i will not do blind dovetails
>
>
> i will probably try blind dovetails one day
> god help me
>
Of course you will, natural curiousity has been sparked up.
Then have a look at blind secret mitred dovetails. Never tried this as I've
never had the need but imagine it's possibly the most complicated
woodworking joint.
50+ years ago I was taught to cut pins first and then use the pins to mark
directly onto its partner the tails using a marking knife.
I imagine a dovetail would be quite worthless in anything but a hard/dense
timber.
Traditional timbers for me are oak, beech and ash. Sadly elm is just not
available. Homegrown stuff is getting harder to find but some decent quality
stuff can be found.
Works well enough for me.

Sharpen your pencil and get cracking!
Good luck and all the best,
Nick.

EC

Electric Comet

in reply to Electric Comet on 15/04/2015 11:31 AM

17/04/2015 6:07 PM

On Wed, 15 Apr 2015 12:48:25 -0600
graham <[email protected]> wrote:

> Did you cut the pins first or the tails?

the right way of course
how else would Paul Sellers do it or teach it

BTW he gets my vote for the most amazing woodshop I've seen
I can't imagine walking to work each day
he's fortunate but he deserves that location it's the perfect fit
pun intended
















EC

Electric Comet

in reply to Electric Comet on 15/04/2015 11:31 AM

17/04/2015 7:11 PM

On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 19:24:52 -0600
graham <[email protected]> wrote:

> There's no right way, just tradition. Brits
> traditionally cut tails first whereas Europeans cut pins first.

well i only know from watching one of his vids
that's only about doing dovetails

he has an interesting style that's easy for me to follow

> In many cases it doesn't matter but when I tried pins first on
> some US red oak, it was very difficult to cut precise tails in such
> a coarse-grained wood. Matching the pins to "variable" tails would
> have been much, much easier.

i did the tails first and it seems without even trying that doing
the pins first would be harder

not sure what kind of oak this is
it is very hard


EC

Electric Comet

in reply to Electric Comet on 15/04/2015 11:31 AM

17/04/2015 8:14 PM

On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 20:31:04 -0600
graham <[email protected]> wrote:

> I took classes from a couple of Germans who insisted on pins first.
> It was easy when working with pine or spruce and I still have the
> first box made that way. I also have the one I tried in red oak as a
> reminder!

i should try it if for nothing more than gaining some insight

> I can assure you, it would have been.

fair warning

> I think the reason the Brits probably did tails first was that much
> of their carcase work was in oak. Furthermore, drawers with blind
> dovetails would have necessitated tails first and when you get into a
> habit.......

i am learning as i go here

i don't understand why tails first for a blind dovetail
i looked at an image just now of one and couldn't unravel that


i wasn't sure what a blind dovetail was so i looked it up
i will not do blind dovetails
i will not do blind dovetails
i will not do blind dovetails


i will probably try blind dovetails one day
god help me












JM

John McCoy

in reply to Electric Comet on 17/04/2015 8:14 PM

18/04/2015 4:01 PM

"Nick" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> "Electric Comet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...

>> i will probably try blind dovetails one day
>> god help me

They're not actually as hard as they look. Not that I'm very
good at them, mind you, but I wouldn't say they're much harder
than thru dovetails.

> Of course you will, natural curiousity has been sparked up.
> Then have a look at blind secret mitred dovetails. Never tried this as
> I've never had the need but imagine it's possibly the most complicated
> woodworking joint.

Hmmm, I'd argue for fox-wedged tenons as hardest, albeit not
complicated in conception. Most complicated would probably be
some of the locking scarph joints shipbuilders used in the days
of wooden ships.

> I imagine a dovetail would be quite worthless in anything but a
> hard/dense timber.

Dunno why you'd say that. It's common to dovetail softer woods
like poplar or white pine for the sides of drawers. Some folk
cut the angle a little wider in softer woods (others say it
doesn't make any difference).

John

EC

Electric Comet

in reply to Electric Comet on 15/04/2015 11:31 AM

18/04/2015 2:02 PM

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 16:10:29 +0100
"Nick" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Of course you will, natural curiousity has been sparked up.
> Then have a look at blind secret mitred dovetails. Never tried this
> as I've never had the need but imagine it's possibly the most
> complicated woodworking joint.

now i will have to look
i may have seen one while look at blind and 1/2 blind dovetails
i at least understand blind mitred but the secret part needs
research

maybe that refers to the time spent making the joint and the fact
that most artisans keep that a secret

mark twain said something like a good impromptu speech takes more
than 3 weeks

we wood artisans could say a good blind secret mitred dovetail takes
as long as needed


> 50+ years ago I was taught to cut pins first and then use the pins to
> mark directly onto its partner the tails using a marking knife.

other poster was taught this way too

> I imagine a dovetail would be quite worthless in anything but a
> hard/dense timber.

i think the application makes a big difference
other wood might make sense in some cases
the size too could factor in


> Traditional timbers for me are oak, beech and ash. Sadly elm is just
> not available. Homegrown stuff is getting harder to find but some
> decent quality stuff can be found.
> Works well enough for me.


i strive for cheapest and go with it
cheap matches my budget as does free











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