Responses about newsreaders -Thanks

So, do you teach these boys that it's OK for mommy to steal? Do you
steal the clothes you put on their back and the food you fill their
bellies with? Why is it different with software?

If you're going to whine about your situation, look at your ethics
first.

-jtpr

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 22:26:54 -0500, jaime <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 21:56:52 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"jaime" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 14:20:00 +0000, No Spam <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> >Tight ass bastard, its 29 US dollars for a licence for software you
>>> >use every day AND get free upgrades for.
>>>
>>> I prefer to keep my *Canadian* dollars. Thanks eh.
>>>
>>
>>That's really pretty low. Actually, it's stealing. Nothing particularly
>>admirable about that.
>
>Well sweetie when one is on as limited as a budget as I personally am
>and trying to raise 2 teenage sons on top of it, by myself I might
>add, without the physical help or the financial resources of a
>husband, I try to save money where I can.
>
>I think my boys having full bellies at night, decent clean clothes to
>go to school in and a roof over thier heads every day is more
>important and much more admirable then buying pricey software at the
>computer store.
>
>If it wasn't for the help of my father at times I do not know what we
>would do. If it wasn't for him I would not even have a computer or an
>internet connection. If it was not for him my boys would not even
>have had Christmas gifts or a Christmas dinner this past holiday
>season.
>
>Before you know *exactly* what my living situation is do not judge me.
>I try my best each and every day but since my heart attack last year,
>my best is getting tougher to accomplish but I will try until they put
>me in that pine box, nail the lid shut and toss that first shovelfull
>of dirt over me.
>
>
so, extending that, since you're poor and raising kids, the grocery store is ok
to take what you need from too, right?

Back in the "old days", if you didn't have the bucks to pay, you didn't play...
I guess things have changed a lot..
Maybe it's time to see just how much Steve Knight is making on his planes, cuz I
have a wife, 4 kids, 2 ex wives and a dozen grandkids and maybe it would be ok
to just take one from him since he's making money and I can't afford a hand
built plane..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

Bob G. wrote:

> all I need to do is remove it from computer number one install it in
> computer number 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 then pick up my telephone and call
> Microsoft...after spending 20 minutes eplaining what I am doing..AND
> WHY I am doing it ... the nice gal at microsoft will give me the Key
> to activate it...

Yeah, what a pain in the ass. That right there (Product Activation) was the
#1 reason why I finally tried Linux. I'm not a thief, dammit, and I
refused to have anything to do with that game. I never have had to deal
with it, but I imagine it's a toll call at that, and they probably keep you
on hold forever.

I'm glad for Product Activation. Without it, I might never have tried
Linux. I really didn't want to look at it at the time, and I was convinced
before trying it that it would be crappy. It would have been very easy to
keep me convinced that there were no viable alternatives to Windows.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 08:52:49 -0800, mac davis <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 22:29:34 -0500, jaime <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I can understand how you feel but there are many people out there who
>>cannot afford the high costs of many of these software programs.

Then one is free to do without them. Isn't choice wonderful?

>>Bill Gates has made *billions* off of people for software it probably
>>cost him less to manufacture then what he retails it for.

Of course it does. He also has developers and lawyers to pay, and they
have families to feed.

> so, using that rationalization, it's ok to steal from him?

That's the thing. As much as I disrespect, loathe, detest, and
dislike Bill Gates, I won't steal from him. Couple reasons, but even
back when I _was_ using Windows, I wouldn't steal from him.

> I find that in way too many cases, morals are defined as fear of getting
> caught..

Yes, and people who don't care about ethics always have a way to
justify stealing what they want. Some of us here make our living
in the software industry, and take that sort of thing kind of personally...

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 07:07:48 -0500, Mike Marlow <[email protected]> wrote:
> Where are you guys getting Linux from? As well, any associated applications
> such as Open Office or Star Office or whatever is commonly used today?
>
> I've got a machine that has been just sitting around and not even on the
> network for a while and I might just put it on and load it up. It's been so
> long since I've looked at the Linux world that I don't even know what
> everyone uses these days. Redhat? Purplecoat?

I'd download a Knoppix live CD, gets you a bootable, runnable Linux
install, and if you have hardware incompatibilities, take the CD out
and you're back to where you were. Good way to try it out, test a
system for compatibility, and also a great way to fix a b0rken Windows
installation if you're ambitious.

knoppix.org is where I'd expect to get it. openoffice.org for the obvious,
and so on. Feel free to email me if you have specific questions, my
address does work.

Dave Hinz

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> I've got a machine that has been just sitting around and not even on the
> network for a while and I might just put it on and load it up. It's been so
> long since I've looked at the Linux world that I don't even know what
> everyone uses these days. Redhat? Purplecoat?
>
If it's an old slow machine, most folks recommend Vector Linux, a
repackaged "friendlier" Slackware.

I haven't tried it yet, but intend to. I installed the latest Mandrake
on my old 233mhz Pentium, and it runs like molasses pours.

I did use Slackware in the past, but I was a professional programmer for
45 years or so. And I still did a fair amount of head scratching (and
shaking) before I got it to work.

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> I'm hearing that the Linux environment is not much better
> than any of the Unix environments were 10 years ago - driver issues and all
> the fun of searching around, finding them, debugging them, etc., much
> smaller list of available applications, patch issues that rival Microsoft,
> etc.
>
At the time I used Slackware at home, I was working on a SCADA system
that used SCO Unix and a traffic control system that used Venix (that
O/S I loved, but it died). Slackware wasn't any harder to set up and
maintain than SCO Unix, but I had to do more digging to find the
documentation I needed. And some of the "howto" docs were a little hard
to read.

I think the applications issue is less now. Linux has MSOffice
compatiblity and more than one CAD package. At least one of the
specialized model railroad (one of my hobbies) design CADs is available
for Linux.

And once you get Linux up and running, you won't have to reboot it every
time you turn around :-).

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 21:56:52 -0500, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]>
wrote:

Some crooks feel pretty proud of stealing, willing to share their loots with
others. There are crooks even in Canada!

>That's really pretty low. Actually, it's stealing. Nothing particularly
>admirable about that.

"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I'm glad for Product Activation. Without it, I might never have tried
> Linux. I really didn't want to look at it at the time, and I was
convinced
> before trying it that it would be crappy. It would have been very easy to
> keep me convinced that there were no viable alternatives to Windows.
>

So what are you and the other Linux users using for an office suite these
days? A while ago I played with a product from Sun called Star Office and
it seemed to be pretty decent, but I don't know if that's still around or
not.
--

-Mike-
[email protected]

That if Windows, and Internet Virus Explorer really did work it might be
worth something to justify the cost and subsequent enrichment of the MS
group. :-)

I'm all for people making money -- by selling stuff that works. Not so
sure about Windows and its security holes being priced appropriately.

Other than that, you're right. :-)) What's the point?


Mike Marlow wrote:
> "jaime" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>I can understand how you feel but there are many people out there who
>>cannot afford the high costs of many of these software programs.
>>
>>Bill Gates has made *billions* off of people for software it probably
>>cost him less to manufacture then what he retails it for.
>>
>
>
> And the point is?
>

--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

Mike:

Actually I think you will enjoy it thoroughly. If you plunge in then
welcome to the club. :-))

But I know what you mean. I have recompiled and tweaked the kernel for
the heck of it more than once... Probably a few hundred times actually...

If you like fooling with databases you can get Interbase, PostGress,
MySQL and Firebird ( http://ibphoenix.com/ ) (An interbase knockoff)


Mike Marlow wrote:
> "Will" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>>The last few versions of Slackware don't seem to have that issue.
>>Version 7 was a little frustrating.
>>
>>The current version - 10.1 seems to slick as a gooses' ...
>>
>>Older machines can often be easier -- since the drivers are now well
>>understood. Even the AMD64 based server was not that bad though. Linux
>>on the AMD64 was a lot simpler than Windows Server 2003 (64 bit). It
>>runs Linux all the time. Easier install, fewer hassles.
>>
>>Been in the tech business quite a while. Linux seems to be just fine
>>now. Five years ago Linux was pretty flaky. I am still more used to
>>Mainframe systems and their Multi-user OS than these new fangled PC's.
>>
>>Each to their own.
>>
>
>
> I know I'll regret this decision, but maybe I'll go ahead and take a look at
> Slackware. I just know what will happen once I sit down and start screwing
> with something like this...
>

--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 14:20:00 +0000, No Spam <[email protected]>
wrote:


>Tight ass bastard, its 29 US dollars for a licence for software you
>use every day AND get free upgrades for.

I prefer to keep my *Canadian* dollars. Thanks eh.

**************************************
I'm *not* a bad person. I simply made the
mistake of getting involved with a *jack*ss*.
Is it ironic that he lives on a farm?
**************************************

>
>...at a time. Seems reasonable to me. I'm sure you're free to install
>Windows XP on each of your computers as long as you uninstall it from the
>previous one before installing it on the next.
>
> - Owen -
>
=Yep Owen I can do that...

all I need to do is remove it from computer number one install it in
computer number 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 then pick up my telephone and call
Microsoft...after spending 20 minutes eplaining what I am doing..AND
WHY I am doing it ... the nice gal at microsoft will give me the Key
to activate it...


At 150 bucks a pop...it is almost as cheap buying a cheap E-Machines
computer to use in the shop...

Before Xp and Microsofts new activation scheme.. I could load 98,
Me,or 2000 on any of my computers and have them all fuction...

Oh well...

Bob Griffiths

"Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> > I've got a machine that has been just sitting around and not even on the
> > network for a while and I might just put it on and load it up. It's
been so
> > long since I've looked at the Linux world that I don't even know what
> > everyone uses these days. Redhat? Purplecoat?
> >
> If it's an old slow machine, most folks recommend Vector Linux, a
> repackaged "friendlier" Slackware.
>
> I haven't tried it yet, but intend to. I installed the latest Mandrake
> on my old 233mhz Pentium, and it runs like molasses pours.
>
> I did use Slackware in the past, but I was a professional programmer for
> 45 years or so. And I still did a fair amount of head scratching (and
> shaking) before I got it to work.
>

Thanks Larry and everyone else that replied. I was a Unix analyst for a lot
of years, a long time ago and always loved the environment, but for the same
reasons that I loved it, I'm somewhat reluctant to dabble with Linux now. I
just don't really care, or have the time to devote to messing with a machine
all of the time. I'm hearing that the Linux environment is not much better
than any of the Unix environments were 10 years ago - driver issues and all
the fun of searching around, finding them, debugging them, etc., much
smaller list of available applications, patch issues that rival Microsoft,
etc. It may well be a more secure environment, but I'm not sure I'm hearing
that Linux has really made it yet as a full featured environment.
--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"jtpr" <[email protected]> wrote ...
> So, do you teach these boys that it's OK for mommy to steal? Do you
> steal the clothes you put on their back and the food you fill their
> bellies with? Why is it different with software?
>
> If you're going to whine about your situation, look at your ethics
> first.

She's psycho. People in other groups have been trying to encourage her to
get help.

Mike Marlow wrote:
>>If it's an old slow machine, most folks recommend Vector Linux, a
>>repackaged "friendlier" Slackware.
>>
>>I haven't tried it yet, but intend to. I installed the latest Mandrake
>>on my old 233mhz Pentium, and it runs like molasses pours.
>>
>>I did use Slackware in the past, but I was a professional programmer for
>>45 years or so. And I still did a fair amount of head scratching (and
>>shaking) before I got it to work.
>>
>
>
> Thanks Larry and everyone else that replied. I was a Unix analyst for a lot
> of years, a long time ago and always loved the environment, but for the same
> reasons that I loved it, I'm somewhat reluctant to dabble with Linux now. I
> just don't really care, or have the time to devote to messing with a machine
> all of the time. I'm hearing that the Linux environment is not much better
> than any of the Unix environments were 10 years ago - driver issues and all
> the fun of searching around, finding them, debugging them, etc., much
> smaller list of available applications, patch issues that rival Microsoft,
> etc. It may well be a more secure environment, but I'm not sure I'm hearing
> that Linux has really made it yet as a full featured environment.

The last few versions of Slackware don't seem to have that issue.
Version 7 was a little frustrating.

The current version - 10.1 seems to slick as a gooses' ...

Older machines can often be easier -- since the drivers are now well
understood. Even the AMD64 based server was not that bad though. Linux
on the AMD64 was a lot simpler than Windows Server 2003 (64 bit). It
runs Linux all the time. Easier install, fewer hassles.

Been in the tech business quite a while. Linux seems to be just fine
now. Five years ago Linux was pretty flaky. I am still more used to
Mainframe systems and their Multi-user OS than these new fangled PC's.

Each to their own.



--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 09:01:28 -0500, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>"jaime" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> >
>> I can understand how you feel but there are many people out there who
>> cannot afford the high costs of many of these software programs.
>>
>> Bill Gates has made *billions* off of people for software it probably
>> cost him less to manufacture then what he retails it for.
>>
>
>And the point is?

It's OK to steal and share it with others.

When I started out assessing Linux I got four flavours - Red Hat,
Mandrake, Slackware and SuSe. All had advantages and disadvantages. Not
much has changed in that respect.

I now use Slackware Linux on three systems (paid money even :-) -- But
you can also download through Bit Torrent - I just got the latest
Slackware 10.1 -- it looks pretty good. This will be the last release
with the 2.4 kernel (2.4.29). KDE desktop is 3.3.2 . Much slicker now.
http://www.slackware.com

Slackware includes the 2.6 kernel -- just haven't tried it yet.

Also -- we packed in our NT Server for a Linux Mandrake server running
on the AMD64 (ASUS K8VSE-Deluxe board) The software is a lot cheaper and
we don't have all the security holes of Windows Server 2000. (2.6
currently KDE 3.2.3) Got a (almost) free version somehow (forget how it
came to me) a few months ago, but I will pay full price for the next
major upgrade - since it does work reliably.
http://www.mandrakelinux.com

Slackware has worked the best for us - it is the most configurable of
the Linux variations I have tried and it is inexpensive. Flexibility is
important for our development.

Openoffice satisfies almost all our business needs other than accounting.

Linux User Magazine -- large format -- usually has a a community edition
release of one of the Linux flavours every month on the accompanying DVD.

I just noticed that 3 out of 5 machines near me are currently running
Linux for development purposes. Funny -- cause I was thinking it was
mostly Windows in our little shop.

Windows XP is required here because we use software for images
processing and accounting for which we have not found better Linux
alternatives. One machine left on Windows 2000 -- but the user better
switch soon or I will pull their network cable.

You can buy magazines, and books with a Linux "community" edition. Since
you can test on your free machine, I would spend a few bucks on these
"trial" versions and see what you like. They are all very good now.

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Where are you guys getting Linux from? As well, any associated applications
> such as Open Office or Star Office or whatever is commonly used today?
>
> I've got a machine that has been just sitting around and not even on the
> network for a while and I might just put it on and load it up. It's been so
> long since I've looked at the Linux world that I don't even know what
> everyone uses these days. Redhat? Purplecoat?
>

--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

Can't get wife to switch to Linux, but we now use Open Office/Star Office.

Switching time was 5 minutes for spread sheets and Documents - not
including moaning time about difficulty of switching (2 days moaning --
5 minutes switching). She's happy now.

It's easy to output a PDF document directly - which is a nice feature.


Silvan wrote:
> Bob G. wrote:
>
>
>>all I need to do is remove it from computer number one install it in
>>computer number 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 then pick up my telephone and call
>>Microsoft...after spending 20 minutes eplaining what I am doing..AND
>>WHY I am doing it ... the nice gal at microsoft will give me the Key
>>to activate it...
>
>
> Yeah, what a pain in the ass. That right there (Product Activation) was the
> #1 reason why I finally tried Linux. I'm not a thief, dammit, and I
> refused to have anything to do with that game. I never have had to deal
> with it, but I imagine it's a toll call at that, and they probably keep you
> on hold forever.
>
> I'm glad for Product Activation. Without it, I might never have tried
> Linux. I really didn't want to look at it at the time, and I was convinced
> before trying it that it would be crappy. It would have been very easy to
> keep me convinced that there were no viable alternatives to Windows.
>

--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Yes, and people who don't care about ethics always have a way to
> justify stealing what they want. Some of us here make our living
> in the software industry, and take that sort of thing kind of
personally...

Very true, but it's more than that. It's not just software and those of us
who did, or currently do make our living off of it. It's the bigger issue
of theft. Those who justify any type of theft in the way that jamie tried
to are equally comfortable justifying another type of theft. It's just a
matter of applying a justification to it and the discomfort that should be
associated with it disappears. Theft is theft, whether it's software,
woodworking, music, or anything else. Sadly, our society is losing touch
with the simple moral issue associated with theft. It was unbelievable to
watch the battle over downloading music illegally play out. The
justifications presented were very revealing with respect to the American
attitude towards what the individual is "entitled" to, versus what the
simple matter of the law is.
--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"jaime" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 14:20:00 +0000, No Spam <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
> >Tight ass bastard, its 29 US dollars for a licence for software you
> >use every day AND get free upgrades for.
>
> I prefer to keep my *Canadian* dollars. Thanks eh.
>

That's really pretty low. Actually, it's stealing. Nothing particularly
admirable about that.
--

-Mike-
[email protected]

jaime <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

<snip>

There are more than a few software people inhabiting this virtual space.
Hence, we often feel it is our livelihood being threatened.

Given the low cost and/or free software made available....

Patriarch

jaime <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 20:45:38 -0600, Patriarch
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>There are more than a few software people inhabiting this virtual
>>space. Hence, we often feel it is our livelihood being threatened.
>>
>>Given the low cost and/or free software made available....
>>
>>Patriarch
>
> I can understand how you feel but there are many people out there who
> cannot afford the high costs of many of these software programs.
>
> Bill Gates has made *billions* off of people for software it probably
> cost him less to manufacture then what he retails it for.
>

Bill Gates isn't the issue here. He's no hero of mine, but that's not
the point.

Free software is available to do the job as well or better. Folks
donated that effort into the public domain so that you and I don't have
to make an ethical decision to use, without compensating the author(s),
software which has not been so donated.

I didn't, and don't, want to make an issue of it. You are free to make
your own choices. But there are those here who feel strongly about
this. Since you are relatively new to this venue, I thought maybe you'd
like to know why some are offended.

Patriarch

jaime <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

<snip>

There are 2 points made in this thread:

1. It is generally considered unethical to use software without paying for
it if you should have paid for it according to the license.

2. There is plenty of free software available for much of what one wants
to do on a computer.

Personally, I didn't like Agent when I tried it years ago, after NS was
giving me fits. Since then I have used Xnews with hardly a problem. It
may take a few days getting used to it, but Agent was giving me fits as
well.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
<snip>
> <http://www.openoffice.org/>
>
> Also runs on Windows if you don't want to cough up the $495 for MS
> Office Professional.
>
> - Doug
>

Works pretty well, and I sleep nights.

I don't believe that MS Office is worth the price for my needs. I
apppreciate the efforts that were _donated_ to make Open Office available
at that price.

Kind of like the free advice available here on the wReck. Not a substitute
for classes or books, but a real supplement.

Patriarch

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

<snip>

> Very true, but it's more than that. It's not just software and those
> of us who did, or currently do make our living off of it. It's the
> bigger issue of theft. Those who justify any type of theft in the way
> that jamie tried to are equally comfortable justifying another type of
> theft. It's just a matter of applying a justification to it and the
> discomfort that should be associated with it disappears. Theft is
> theft, whether it's software, woodworking, music, or anything else.
> Sadly, our society is losing touch with the simple moral issue
> associated with theft. It was unbelievable to watch the battle over
> downloading music illegally play out. The justifications presented
> were very revealing with respect to the American attitude towards what
> the individual is "entitled" to, versus what the simple matter of the
> law is.

I found it very interesting to watch various cultural and historical issues
play out, with regard to intellectual property, while involved in the
international telecommunications equipment industry. It is simple to say
that there are vastly differing cultural heritage issues at work here.
Beyond that, things get muddy pretty quickly.

What's 'right', which seems pretty clear to you and me, seems to vary
greatly. And those who proceed without an understanding of that situation
are not likely to prosper in their efforts.

Patriarch,
not preaching on a Monday...

"jaime" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Well sweetie when one is on as limited as a budget as I personally am
> and trying to raise 2 teenage sons on top of it, by myself I might
> add, without the physical help or the financial resources of a
> husband, I try to save money where I can.
>

Don't call me sweetie, my wife is the jealous type.

> I think my boys having full bellies at night, decent clean clothes to
> go to school in and a roof over thier heads every day is more
> important and much more admirable then buying pricey software at the
> computer store.
>
> If it wasn't for the help of my father at times I do not know what we
> would do. If it wasn't for him I would not even have a computer or an
> internet connection. If it was not for him my boys would not even
> have had Christmas gifts or a Christmas dinner this past holiday
> season.
>
> Before you know *exactly* what my living situation is do not judge me.
> I try my best each and every day but since my heart attack last year,
> my best is getting tougher to accomplish but I will try until they put
> me in that pine box, nail the lid shut and toss that first shovelfull
> of dirt over me.
>

I made no judgments jamie. I don't know you at all so I have to take your
word for who and what you are and that's fine by me. I made a simple
statement. It's stealing, it's illegal and it's wrong. Justify it all you
want, but the fact of the matter is that there are plenty of absolutely free
programs out there that work just fine. You know that it's wrong and if you
were the victim of someone stealing from you, I'm sure you'd have a lot to
say about it. That would be your right. Dragging out the old "if you only
knew how hard I have it" line really does not bring any justification to the
matter. Do you know what the living conditions of anyone in this newsgroup
are? Are you certain that there are not plenty of people in situations
similar to yours? Maybe a lot of them pirate software too, but they don't
brag about it in a usenet post and offer to share the ill gotten gains.
Maybe a lot of them find alternatives to taking what is not theirs.
--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"mac davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Back in the "old days", if you didn't have the bucks to pay, you didn't
play...
> I guess things have changed a lot..
> Maybe it's time to see just how much Steve Knight is making on his planes,
cuz I
> have a wife, 4 kids, 2 ex wives and a dozen grandkids and maybe it would
be ok
> to just take one from him since he's making money and I can't afford a
hand
> built plane..
>

Take two. But send me one, OK?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"jaime" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
> I can understand how you feel but there are many people out there who
> cannot afford the high costs of many of these software programs.
>
> Bill Gates has made *billions* off of people for software it probably
> cost him less to manufacture then what he retails it for.
>

And the point is?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 22:26:54 -0500, jaime <[email protected]>
wrote:

[snip]
>Well sweetie when one is on as limited as a budget as I personally am
>and trying to raise 2 teenage sons on top of it, by myself I might
>add, without the physical help or the financial resources of a
>husband, I try to save money where I can.
>
>I think my boys having full bellies at night, decent clean clothes to
>go to school in and a roof over thier heads every day is more
>important and much more admirable then buying pricey software at the
>computer store.
>
>If it wasn't for the help of my father at times I do not know what we
>would do. If it wasn't for him I would not even have a computer or an
>internet connection. If it was not for him my boys would not even
>have had Christmas gifts or a Christmas dinner this past holiday
>season.
>
>Before you know *exactly* what my living situation is do not judge me.
>I try my best each and every day but since my heart attack last year,
>my best is getting tougher to accomplish but I will try until they put
>me in that pine box, nail the lid shut and toss that first shovelfull
>of dirt over me.

Sob. Another part of raising children (in my mind anyway) is
imparting a sense of ethics and right or wrong. Bragging to the world
about stealing software seems counter to that goal.

Kind of like smoking dope in front of them while telling them how bad
it is for them.

> >There are more than a few software people inhabiting this virtual space.
> >Hence, we often feel it is our livelihood being threatened.
> >
> >Given the low cost and/or free software made available....
> >
> >Patriarch
> =============================
> I have no problem paying for software that I can install on all of my
> home computers... BUT I do have a problem with the fact that I can not
> Buy a single copy of Windows XP and install it on each of my
> computers ... In a case like that I would resort to "stealing"
>
> Imagine owning a Forrest WW11 blade and can only use it on one
> tablesaw...

...at a time. Seems reasonable to me. I'm sure you're free to install
Windows XP on each of your computers as long as you uninstall it from the
previous one before installing it on the next.

- Owen -

No Spam wrote:

> jaime <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On 04 Feb 2005 23:02:33 GMT, [email protected] (Sambo145) wrote:
>>
>>>Thanks for all the responses about newsreaders. It will keep me busy for
>>>a while checking out a suitable one.
>>>
>>>Sam
>>
>>If you decide on Agent and need a registration key I can email you the
>>one I am using which I found on the internet.
>
>
> Tight ass bastard, its 29 US dollars for a licence for software you
> use every day AND get free upgrades for.
>
> <shakes head in disgust>

Further, they have a very usable _free_ version of it. Geez, some
people . . .

> --

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

jaime wrote:

> On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 20:45:38 -0600, Patriarch
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>There are more than a few software people inhabiting this virtual space.
>>Hence, we often feel it is our livelihood being threatened.
>>
>>Given the low cost and/or free software made available....
>>
>>Patriarch
>
> I can understand how you feel but there are many people out there who
> cannot afford the high costs of many of these software programs.

Uh, what "low cost and/or free software" has "high costs"?


> Bill Gates has made *billions* off of people for software it probably
> cost him less to manufacture then what he retails it for.

Generally speaking, if one sells one's product at a price less than the cost
of manufacture, one goes broke in short order.

First, there are several free newsreaders available for Windows, including
Free Agent. Gravity is quite nice. Google "free Windows newsreader" and
you should get a number of hits. Second, this discussion started by
someone complaining of not having the 30 bucks to pay for full Agent. That
is hardly an onerous price. Third, if it's Microsoft that's bugging you,
they provide a number of ways to get their software at very good discounts
if you know the right hoops to jump through. For a thousand bucks or so
you can get _everything_ they make other than games and hardware, all with
multiple licenses. For 300 you can get ten seats of everything likely to
be useful for a small business, with three shipments of new or updated
stuff in the next year and after that for 200 a year you can continue to
get the quarterly shipments. You can get many of their developer tools for
a free download. If you're a legitimate nonprofit you can get XP for 25
bucks for the first seat and 18 for each of the next 50--more than that
contact Microsoft directly.

And if that's too much for you then there is Open Source.

> **************************************
> I'm *not* a bad person. I simply made the
> mistake of getting involved with a *jack*ss*.
> Is it a coincidence that he lives on a farm?
> **************************************

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 08:52:49 -0800, mac davis
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 22:29:34 -0500, jaime <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 20:45:38 -0600, Patriarch
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>There are more than a few software people inhabiting this virtual space.
>>>Hence, we often feel it is our livelihood being threatened.
>>>
>>>Given the low cost and/or free software made available....
>>>
>>>Patriarch
>>
>>I can understand how you feel but there are many people out there who
>>cannot afford the high costs of many of these software programs.
>>

Software is only "cheap" in the distribution. Making it WORK is hard.
What numerical accuracy do you expect from your ATM machine in a
32-digit calculation? Now try to get that kind of accuracy out of a PC.

While you're working on that, I'll reproduce the works of Norm,
Stickley, Chippendale, and every anonymous Shaker who ever lived.

Oh . . . and I recommend the slrn newsreader.

"Will" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> The last few versions of Slackware don't seem to have that issue.
> Version 7 was a little frustrating.
>
> The current version - 10.1 seems to slick as a gooses' ...
>
> Older machines can often be easier -- since the drivers are now well
> understood. Even the AMD64 based server was not that bad though. Linux
> on the AMD64 was a lot simpler than Windows Server 2003 (64 bit). It
> runs Linux all the time. Easier install, fewer hassles.
>
> Been in the tech business quite a while. Linux seems to be just fine
> now. Five years ago Linux was pretty flaky. I am still more used to
> Mainframe systems and their Multi-user OS than these new fangled PC's.
>
> Each to their own.
>

I know I'll regret this decision, but maybe I'll go ahead and take a look at
Slackware. I just know what will happen once I sit down and start screwing
with something like this...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 22:29:34 -0500, jaime <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 20:45:38 -0600, Patriarch
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>There are more than a few software people inhabiting this virtual space.
>>Hence, we often feel it is our livelihood being threatened.
>>
>>Given the low cost and/or free software made available....
>>
>>Patriarch
>
>I can understand how you feel but there are many people out there who
>cannot afford the high costs of many of these software programs.
>
>Bill Gates has made *billions* off of people for software it probably
>cost him less to manufacture then what he retails it for.
>

One would certainly hope this is the case. If a business cannot sell its
product for more than it costs to manufacture, that business will not
remain in business long. (The old saw, "We're losing $5 per unit we sell,
but that's OK, we'll make up for it in volume" doesn't work in the real
world).

What gets people irate with Bill is the fact that his company has engaged
in some significant strong-arm tactics and questionable tactics that, in
many peoples' mind are borderline unethical in order to maintain its
operating system monopoly. The fact that Msoft makes money is not the
issue, it's how it prevents competition and subjugates users and computer
manufacturers.





>
>**************************************
>I'm *not* a bad person. I simply made the
>mistake of getting involved with a *jack*ss*.
>Is it a coincidence that he lives on a farm?
>**************************************



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

The absence of accidents does not mean the presence of safety

Army General Richard Cody

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On 04 Feb 2005 23:02:33 GMT, [email protected] (Sambo145) wrote:

>Thanks for all the responses about newsreaders. It will keep me busy for a
>while checking out a suitable one.
>
>Sam

If you decide on Agent and need a registration key I can email you the
one I am using which I found on the internet.

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 20:45:38 -0600, Patriarch
<[email protected]> wrote:

>jaime <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
><snip>
>
>There are more than a few software people inhabiting this virtual space.
>Hence, we often feel it is our livelihood being threatened.
>
>Given the low cost and/or free software made available....
>
>Patriarch
=============================
I have no problem paying for software that I can install on all of my
home computers... BUT I do have a problem with the fact that I can not
Buy a single copy of Windows XP and install it on each of my
computers ... In a case like that I would resort to "stealing"

Imagine owning a Forrest WW11 blade and can only use it on one
tablesaw...

Bob Griffiths

Bob Griffiths

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 20:45:38 -0600, Patriarch
<[email protected]> wrote:


>There are more than a few software people inhabiting this virtual space.
>Hence, we often feel it is our livelihood being threatened.
>
>Given the low cost and/or free software made available....
>
>Patriarch

I can understand how you feel but there are many people out there who
cannot afford the high costs of many of these software programs.

Bill Gates has made *billions* off of people for software it probably
cost him less to manufacture then what he retails it for.


**************************************
I'm *not* a bad person. I simply made the
mistake of getting involved with a *jack*ss*.
Is it a coincidence that he lives on a farm?
**************************************

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 11:58:43 -0500, Bob G. <[email protected]> wrote:


>I have no problem paying for software that I can install on all of my
>home computers... BUT I do have a problem with the fact that I can not
>Buy a single copy of Windows XP and install it on each of my
>computers ... In a case like that I would resort to "stealing"
>
>Imagine owning a Forrest WW11 blade and can only use it on one
>tablesaw...
>
>Bob Griffiths
>
Bob.. I don't know if this is still the case, but when I bough XpPro, I was
pissed that I couldn't install it on our other machine(s)...
I sent an email to Micro$oft support and got one back asking me to do a live
chat with a tech... after understanding my problem, he gave me 2 additional
validation numbers for the other computers.. (at no charge)



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 21:19:45 -0600, WD <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 21:56:52 -0500, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>Some crooks feel pretty proud of stealing, willing to share their loots with
>others. There are crooks even in Canada!



Okay!! I am out of here. Bye.

**************************************
I'm *not* a bad person. I simply made the
mistake of getting involved with a *jack*ss*.
Is it a coincidence that he lives on a farm?
**************************************

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 20:45:36 -0500, Mike Marlow wrote:

> So what are you and the other Linux users using for an office suite these
> days? A while ago I played with a product from Sun called Star Office and
> it seemed to be pretty decent, but I don't know if that's still around or
> not.

<http://www.openoffice.org/>

Also runs on Windows if you don't want to cough up the $495 for MS Office
Professional.

- Doug

--

To escape criticism--do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." (Elbert Hubbard)

On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 07:07:48 -0500, Mike Marlow wrote:

> Where are you guys getting Linux from? As well, any associated
> applications such as Open Office or Star Office or whatever is commonly
> used today?
>
> I've got a machine that has been just sitting around and not even on the
> network for a while and I might just put it on and load it up. It's been
> so long since I've looked at the Linux world that I don't even know what
> everyone uses these days. Redhat? Purplecoat?

I've been using Fedora (RedHat). You can download it at:

<http://fedora.redhat.com/>

It's a four CD distribution and includes a ton of apps such as OpenOffice.

- Doug

--

To escape criticism--do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." (Elbert Hubbard)

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 22:29:34 -0500, jaime <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 20:45:38 -0600, Patriarch
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>There are more than a few software people inhabiting this virtual space.
>>Hence, we often feel it is our livelihood being threatened.
>>
>>Given the low cost and/or free software made available....
>>
>>Patriarch
>
>I can understand how you feel but there are many people out there who
>cannot afford the high costs of many of these software programs.
>
>Bill Gates has made *billions* off of people for software it probably
>cost him less to manufacture then what he retails it for.
>
so, using that rationalization, it's ok to steal from him?

I find that in way too many cases, morals are defined as fear of getting
caught..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

Where are you guys getting Linux from? As well, any associated applications
such as Open Office or Star Office or whatever is commonly used today?

I've got a machine that has been just sitting around and not even on the
network for a while and I might just put it on and load it up. It's been so
long since I've looked at the Linux world that I don't even know what
everyone uses these days. Redhat? Purplecoat?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

jaime <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 04 Feb 2005 23:02:33 GMT, [email protected] (Sambo145) wrote:
>
>>Thanks for all the responses about newsreaders. It will keep me busy for a
>>while checking out a suitable one.
>>
>>Sam
>
>If you decide on Agent and need a registration key I can email you the
>one I am using which I found on the internet.


Tight ass bastard, its 29 US dollars for a licence for software you
use every day AND get free upgrades for.

<shakes head in disgust>


--

On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 21:56:52 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"jaime" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 14:20:00 +0000, No Spam <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >Tight ass bastard, its 29 US dollars for a licence for software you
>> >use every day AND get free upgrades for.
>>
>> I prefer to keep my *Canadian* dollars. Thanks eh.
>>
>
>That's really pretty low. Actually, it's stealing. Nothing particularly
>admirable about that.

Well sweetie when one is on as limited as a budget as I personally am
and trying to raise 2 teenage sons on top of it, by myself I might
add, without the physical help or the financial resources of a
husband, I try to save money where I can.

I think my boys having full bellies at night, decent clean clothes to
go to school in and a roof over thier heads every day is more
important and much more admirable then buying pricey software at the
computer store.

If it wasn't for the help of my father at times I do not know what we
would do. If it wasn't for him I would not even have a computer or an
internet connection. If it was not for him my boys would not even
have had Christmas gifts or a Christmas dinner this past holiday
season.

Before you know *exactly* what my living situation is do not judge me.
I try my best each and every day but since my heart attack last year,
my best is getting tougher to accomplish but I will try until they put
me in that pine box, nail the lid shut and toss that first shovelfull
of dirt over me.



**************************************
I'm *not* a bad person. I simply made the
mistake of getting involved with a *jack*ss*.
Is it a coincidence that he lives on a farm?
**************************************

Thought of this while cooking breakfast. Note his policy. He only posts
links to ISO's if allowed.

http://www.linuxiso.org/

Used it a few times.

Highly recommend the use of Bittorent to download ISO images. Just leave
it running for a few hours after you are finished. Give other people a
chance to share your bandwidth since you shared someone else's bandwidth.

http://bittorrent.com/

Works great under Linux - haven't tried the Windows version. I think it
requires the Python language BTW -- at least it does on Linux.


Mike Marlow wrote:
> Where are you guys getting Linux from? As well, any associated applications
> such as Open Office or Star Office or whatever is commonly used today?
>
> I've got a machine that has been just sitting around and not even on the
> network for a while and I might just put it on and load it up. It's been so
> long since I've looked at the Linux world that I don't even know what
> everyone uses these days. Redhat? Purplecoat?
>

--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 20:06:49 -0500, Silvan <[email protected]>
wrote:

Can you run Forte Agent under Linux or other Win programs?

>I'm glad for Product Activation. Without it, I might never have tried
>Linux. I really didn't want to look at it at the time, and I was convinced
>before trying it that it would be crappy. It would have been very easy to
>keep me convinced that there were no viable alternatives to Windows.