As a child, I always enjoyed tooling around in our garage. I built a
few 2x4 and plywood tables and other projects. When I left home around
age 20, I was off in apartments for a number of years. Over the last
couple of years I have watched NYW, Norm, and TOH on PBS. It rekindled
my interest in woodworking, and I vowed to create a shop and build
projects once I had the space.
Well, I have a decent shop now. A TS, a jointer, a compound miter saw,
and some hand power tools.
Norm is the guy who got me interested in woodworking. He has inspired
me to take up this great hobby. Maybe it is my ignorance, but I have
always been impressed by what I see him produce. I am not so stupid as
to not realize that he makes mistakes, and for the sake of TV time,
the mistakes aren't shown. I realize that it would not be as easy as
Norm made it look.
I've been lurking here on this NG on and off. I've come for tool
reveiws, solutions to problems, etc. And I noticed here and there a
war that has gone on for a very long time on this NG - to Norm or not
to Norm.
Why?
What, specifically, is so bad about Norm? If he has been my main
source of learning and inspiration, will I be damned to a future of
poor quality projects?
I see that a lot of the fighting comes from the "purist" hand toolers
vs. the Norm power toolers. Some people seem to be offended just by
the fact that he uses power tools. It is interesting to note that in
Norm's first book, he mentions how he grew up using hand tools, and
mentions the skills that his dad taught him. He says NYW is a
departure for him from those teachings, and a chance to use power
tools to build traditional furniture.
So, two questions from a ww newbie:
How am I being harmed in my quest to make nice projects if I follow
Norm's techniques? What are specific things he does that are "bad" and
what are the "better" ways of doing them?
Thanks for your comments.
Thanks,
Brian
Brian Henderson wrote:
> It isn't like you can't tell what every tool in the shop is, he only
> covers the labels because PBS requires it. And Porter Cable does an
> ad-shot before and after the show.
They are called 'sponsors'...and I would hardly equate that with
"kissing and advertisers ass". Somebody has to pay for the shows?
Are you a regular donator to your local PBS station? If not, then
shut your trap - you're getting something for nothing and if you
don't like it, the rest of us don't care. If you think it's so
easy to produce a good product that many people use but barely anyone
pays for...then step up to the plate!
If you are (a donator), then surely you understand that the money
for these shows must come from somewhere...and most people watch
for free, but don't pay.
--
************************************
Chris Merrill
[email protected]
(remove the ZZZ to contact me)
************************************
Belleauwood wrote:
> I wonder Norm reads any of this?
Probably not. He's probably having too much fun in his shop to worry
about the negative stuff a bunch of wankers are writing about him.
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:56:49 GMT, "David Babcock"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Have you ever checked out production costs?
David Marks doesn't seem to have a problem doing it, does he?
"Larry Bud" <[email protected]> wrote ...
> > So, two questions from a ww newbie:
> >
> > How am I being harmed in my quest to make nice projects if I follow
> > Norm's techniques? What are specific things he does that are "bad" and
> > what are the "better" ways of doing them?
>
> I love Norm, but I think the main beef is that he seems to nail
> EVERYTHING together. You don't need nails, just glue and a crapload
> of clamps. The nails do nothing but hold the piece together while the
> glue dries, and they put holes in an otherwise nice surface.
With a nailgun, you can keep working, you don't
need to wait for the glue to set. Not so with clamps,
since they often clamp right where the next piece goes.
That's a good reason for Norm to use a nailgun, and
a good reason for weakend furniture makers too.
OTOH, there is a certain satisfaction making furniture
that has no metal in it. Side note: In the 70's GE had
an entire building made without any steel or iron in it,
to do experiments with the big superconducting magnets
they use in NMR imaging (now called MRI) machines.
--
Dennis M. O'Connor [email protected]
"Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote ...
> "Dennis M. O'Connor" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >With a nailgun, you can keep working, you don't
> >need to wait for the glue to set. Not so with clamps,
> >since they often clamp right where the next piece goes.
> >That's a good reason for Norm to use a nailgun, and
> >a good reason for weakend furniture makers too.
>
> This is TV. You can stop the camera and wait for the glue to set.
I didn't realize weekend furniture makers were on TV.
Contrary to what the Dish Network PVR ads might lead
you to believe, you can't skip-ahead or rewind in real life.
Other people have commented on how uneconomic it is
to have a TV crew just "wait for the glue to set".
--
Dennis M. O'Connor [email protected]
However, the Dish PVR really does rock: Watch what
you want when you want, and how you want. It
can change your life. I'm a satisfied customer.
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 06:48:35 GMT, Brian Henderson
<[email protected]> brought forth from the murky
depths:
>On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:56:49 GMT, "David Babcock"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Have you ever checked out production costs?
>
>David Marks doesn't seem to have a problem doing it, does he?
2 points, Bri.
P.S: And Marks is on DIY with prolly 10% of Morash' budget and
(AFAIK) no donated tools.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I sent in my $5, so * http://www.diversify.com/stees.html
why haven't I been 'saved'? * Graphic Design - Humorous T-shirts
Larry Jaques responds:
>>>Have you ever checked out production costs?
>>
>>David Marks doesn't seem to have a problem doing it, does he?
>
>2 points, Bri.
>
>P.S: And Marks is on DIY with prolly 10% of Morash' budget and
>(AFAIK) no donated tools.
Don't bet on that. Tools and materials are almost certainly provided...remember
Norm when he first cranked up.
IIRC, it was Bob Vila who got hassled out of PBS for doing exactly the kind of
commericalization they're doing now (and were doing more quietly then, which is
probably what pissed them off...he was getting the biggest share).
Charlie Self
"In the final choice a soldier's pack is not so heavy as a prisoner's chains."
Dwight D. Eisenhower
Charlie ...
<<IIRC, it was Bob Vila who got hassled out of PBS for doing exactly the
kind of
commericalization they're doing now (and were doing more quietly then, which
is
probably what pissed them off...he was getting the biggest share).>>
The conflict that resulted in Vila's ouster was simply that the sponsor of
his personal endorsement deal (Rickel) was a competetor of an underwriter of
TOH (Home Depot) on a considerable number of local affiliates, particularly
in the South. The Depot squawked. But your point is entirely correct:
there is virtually no difference between flat-out commercialism and the
kinds of financial arrangements PBS makes (and has always made) with its
commercial benefactors.
Lee
--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"
On 11 Dec 2003 17:59:30 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
wrote:
>Don't bet on that. Tools and materials are almost certainly provided...remember
>Norm when he first cranked up.
Nope, David Marks did a show on his workshop and detailed where he
personally bought EVERY TOOL IN IT. He has absolutely *ZERO* donated
tools.
>IIRC, it was Bob Vila who got hassled out of PBS for doing exactly the kind of
>commericalization they're doing now (and were doing more quietly then, which is
>probably what pissed them off...he was getting the biggest share).
Oh sure, Bob Vila sucks, we know that, but just because you can point
to one guy who is worse doesn't make it acceptable that someone else
isn't quite as bad.
Bob certainly doesn't deserve to be on NYW or any other show as far as
I'm concerned.
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (BJS) writes:
>[Snip]
>
>What, specifically, is so bad about Norm? If he has been my main
>source of learning and inspiration, will I be damned to a future of
>poor quality projects?
>
>I see that a lot of the fighting comes from the "purist" hand toolers
>vs. the Norm power toolers. Some people seem to be offended just by
>the fact that he uses power tools. It is interesting to note that in
>Norm's first book, he mentions how he grew up using hand tools, and
>mentions the skills that his dad taught him. He says NYW is a
>departure for him from those teachings, and a chance to use power
>tools to build traditional furniture.
>
>So, two questions from a ww newbie:
>
>How am I being harmed in my quest to make nice projects if I follow
>Norm's techniques? What are specific things he does that are "bad" and
>what are the "better" ways of doing them?
>
Brian,
The NYW has been an inspiration to many people. So don't let the negative
influence get to you. Those do-it-yourself show are designed to do just that.
Get people thinking in a direction to start doing it yourself. I think Norm is
a great example of that. That he deserves the title Master Craftsman (or
whatever that title he has) or not I cannot say. I think that would depend if
he could sell enough of his work or not. Because lets face it being a Master at
anything means nothing if nobody likes it enough to buy it.
Take time to learn the skills of Norm. But don't stop there. Because there are
a lot of great woodworkers out there. Some who are safety minded some who are
not. Some who use brads to hold it together while the glue dries some who use
only clamps. Use what works for you. If it doesn't look good to you don't use
it. If it ever gets down to selling your stuff then you will have to do what
the customer will buy.
You know safety is important. And, we here cannot stress enough about it. But,
I remember Sam Maloof saying something about the danger of way he uses the
bandsaw to freehand his work. I am not telling you to go out and put yourself
into a dangerous situation by this comment. But, Sam Maloof I would consider a
Master Craftsman. He does stuff that is not safe. Does that make him any less a
Master? Hell, no.
These guys are great guys here. They know a lot about woodworking. But, take it
with a grain of salt. Some are jealous, some are talking out their ass and some
are Masters. But. unless you can separate who is what beware. In any case
everybody has a different style in the way they work. Try to take something
from everybody. Eliminate the garbage and keep the good.
Roy
Roy
Tue, Dec 9, 2003, 12:16am (EST-3) [email protected] (BJS) asks:
<snip> What, specifically, is so bad about Norm? <snip>
You are obviously misunderstanding. Nothing is wrong about Norm.
Nothing is wrong about Roy Underhill. But, to compare them would be
wrong, because they are approaching woodworking from totally different
ways.
Nothing is right about Bob Villa.
Norm is good, Roy is good, Bob is evil. Simple.
JOAT
Where the choice is between only violence and cowardice, I would advise
violence.
- Mohandas Gandhi
Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 8 Dec 2003.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofalltrades/SOMETUNESILIKE/
Scott Cramer wrote:
> On 09 Dec 2003, Coach Mike spake unto rec.woodworking:
> > OK, I'll bite. Why is Bob evil?
> Bob is willing to shill any product for any advertiser willing to pay
> his fee. His personal integrity in this regard places him well below used
> car salesmen and real estate agents; but, to his credit, somewhat higher
> than personal injury lawyers.
> That doesn't make him evil, actually. Just beneath contempt.
He WAS a used car salesman. Don't you remember the lawsuit he got hit
with for acting as a general contractor on that house out in
California. It all came out when he was deposed. He never had a
subcontractor license or any notable experience.
Dave in Fairfax
--
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
Sort of hard to add to what JOAT said in summing up the general feeling on
the Wreck. As has been pointed out Norm sparked interest in woodworking. He
got started in the entertainment business by being a subcontractor on jobs
for TOH. His background is that of carpenter rather than furniture maker or
boat builder although he does an adequate job on these other areas. To
compare his work with the likes of Sam Maloof would not be appropriate.
Likewise, seeing a show on Sam Maloof would be very interesting, but could
you imagine him doing a weekly TV show and gaining any ratings?
What annoys? Most of my life I've worked with pine. I'm just getting to
where I can afford a little hardwood now and then. This last weekend I
watched the rerun of Norms roll top desk. I enjoy this show because I've
built a roll top in pine and would love to do one in oak like Norms. I
cringe when I see him nail thru the lift bars on the tambour where the holes
will be visible to everyone that looks at the piece. I know that a lot of
this is driven by TV schedules and a lot is driven by Norm's background. As
Roy pointed out, nail vs. clamps only, or maybe screws from the back.
Another thing that annoys is his use of glue. I don't care how much he uses,
but the fact that he gets away with it is annoying. Whether I wipe with a
sponge, or let dry and scrape, I always end up with a white mark someplace
that won't take finish.
So much for rambling. JOAT said it: "Norm is good, Roy is good, Bob is
evil."
Gene
"BJS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> As a child, I always enjoyed tooling around in our garage. I built a
> few 2x4 and plywood tables and other projects. When I left home around
> age 20, I was off in apartments for a number of years. Over the last
> couple of years I have watched NYW, Norm, and TOH on PBS. It rekindled
> my interest in woodworking, and I vowed to create a shop and build
> projects once I had the space.
>
> Well, I have a decent shop now. A TS, a jointer, a compound miter saw,
> and some hand power tools.
>
> Norm is the guy who got me interested in woodworking. He has inspired
> me to take up this great hobby. Maybe it is my ignorance, but I have
> always been impressed by what I see him produce. I am not so stupid as
> to not realize that he makes mistakes, and for the sake of TV time,
> the mistakes aren't shown. I realize that it would not be as easy as
> Norm made it look.
>
> I've been lurking here on this NG on and off. I've come for tool
> reveiws, solutions to problems, etc. And I noticed here and there a
> war that has gone on for a very long time on this NG - to Norm or not
> to Norm.
>
> Why?
>
> What, specifically, is so bad about Norm? If he has been my main
> source of learning and inspiration, will I be damned to a future of
> poor quality projects?
>
> I see that a lot of the fighting comes from the "purist" hand toolers
> vs. the Norm power toolers. Some people seem to be offended just by
> the fact that he uses power tools. It is interesting to note that in
> Norm's first book, he mentions how he grew up using hand tools, and
> mentions the skills that his dad taught him. He says NYW is a
> departure for him from those teachings, and a chance to use power
> tools to build traditional furniture.
>
> So, two questions from a ww newbie:
>
> How am I being harmed in my quest to make nice projects if I follow
> Norm's techniques? What are specific things he does that are "bad" and
> what are the "better" ways of doing them?
>
> Thanks for your comments.
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
Greetings and Salutations.
On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 12:45:53 GMT, Tom Watson <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 9 Dec 2003 00:16:47 -0800, [email protected] (BJS) wrote:
>
>And once more they will follow El Cid into battle, even though he is
>already dead.
>
>
The thing that amazes me is that we have gone at least three
or four months without a Norm thread. Wonder if the original poster
is one of Norm's interns, trying to keep his name in the news?
In any case as I have mentioned before, I like NYW, and
part of the pleasure was going from "hum...I might could do that"
to "Yea, I can do that" to "Haw...I can do that BETTER"
He is an engaging and pleasant fellow who is a great
spokesman for the hobby, and, has introduced many folks to it
in a non-threatening way...what more could we ask for...especially
since David Marks is on the air now!
Regards
Dave Mundt
I love watching TOH and NYW. I actually think TOH has gone down hill though.
They used to show how things were done in more detail, now they just gloss
over it and send the host somewhere to showcase some historic landmark or
what not. With that being said, it is a lot better than most of the DIY
shows geared toward retarded homeowners. I worked for several years in
professional carpentry and most of the crap they show is so dumbed down it's
pathetic. I would rather watch how pro's accomplish something than some dumb
blond with a toll apron reading a script. About Norm, however, what
frustrates a new woodworker like me is that Norm rarely shows how to do
something without "this or that " power tool. I figure that most people
watching his show are hobbyists or beginners and don't own the array of
tools he uses. The people that do own that many tools are mostly
professionals or more experienced and don't have much to gain from watching
him.( except entertainment value and to critique his work).
OTOH, he does have to appeal to a wide range of viewers. A very good show
that I was sad to see go was " Furniture to Go". It focused on
finishing/refinishing and upholstering. They regularly bagged on Norm and
showcased some excellent techniques.
"George G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I see a lot of truths in this thread and also a lot of jealousy because
> someone is making money from WW. Some of these people would like to be
> in their shoes.
>
On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:08:25 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>What a groove they had, Dire Straits.
Every time I saw them I had a new "best show I've ever seen". <G>
Barry
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 23:23:03 -0800 (PST), [email protected] (George
G) wrote:
>I see a lot of truths in this thread and also a lot of jealousy because
>someone is making money from WW. Some of these people would like to be
>in their shoes.
"that ain't workin' - that's the way you do it - money for nothin' and
the chicks for free."
Regards, Tom
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker
Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania 19428
http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson
What a groove they had, Dire Straits.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03
"Tom Watson" wrote in message
> "that ain't workin' - that's the way you do it - money for nothin' and
> the chicks for free."
>
>
> Regards, Tom
> Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker
> Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania 19428
> http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson
On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 09:00:21 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Being a bass player, I am a sucker for a 'groove'.
That's funny, same here.
Barry
Being a bass player, I am a sucker for a 'groove'. There are some bands
where the rhythm section's hearts beat together and they meet on top of the
beat and shake hands: Dire Straits, Neville Brothers, Little Feat, New Grass
Revival, Big Twist and The Mellow Fellows, Wailing Wailers, are at the top
of my all time list in this department.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03
"B a r r y B u r k e J r ." wrote in message
> On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:08:25 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:
>
> >What a groove they had, Dire Straits.
> Every time I saw them I had a new "best show I've ever seen". <G>
>
> Barry
BJS <[email protected]> wrote:
: I see that a lot of the fighting comes from the "purist" hand toolers
: vs. the Norm power toolers. Some people seem to be offended just by
: the fact that he uses power tools.
Mmmmm that's not what I've noticed. For example, I see lots of
handtoolers in awe of Frank Klauz. Klauz uses power tools. And hand
tools. In his videos, he shows many ways to accomplish the same
task (e.g. mortice and tenon joints).
Klauz takes the sensible approach that if all you have to do is a few
joints then hand tools are the way to go because you save setup time.
> It is interesting to note that in
: Norm's first book, he mentions how he grew up using hand tools, and
: mentions the skills that his dad taught him. He says NYW is a
: departure for him from those teachings, and a chance to use power
: tools to build traditional furniture.
Klauz uses power tools.
: So, two questions from a ww newbie:
: How am I being harmed in my quest to make nice projects if I follow
: Norm's techniques? What are specific things he does that are "bad" and
: what are the "better" ways of doing them?
It isn't his tools so much as some mistakes he made in the past
concerning wood movement etc. He's gotten a lot better over time.
Then, too, there is this visceral dislike, in some of us (I'm one of
them) of the use of the pneumatic nailer to hold things together.
It's irrational but it's there.
--- Gregg
My woodworking projects:
Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:
http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html
Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:
http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm
Steambending FAQ with photos:
http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm
"Improvise, adapt, overcome."
[email protected]
Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics
Phone: (617) 496-1558
We could ask for David to broaden h is horizons beyond satellite tv -
say, into cable so more of us could watch his show!
Renata
On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:55:36 GMT, [email protected] (Dave Mundt) wrote:
> Greetings and Salutations.
> The thing that amazes me is that we have gone at least three
>or four months without a Norm thread.
--snip--
> He is an engaging and pleasant fellow who is a great
>spokesman for the hobby, and, has introduced many folks to it
>in a non-threatening way...what more could we ask for...especially
>since David Marks is on the air now!
> Regards
> Dave Mundt
>
yes. AND a lathe. and 10,000 routers; I've only got 2. And a
dedicated mortiser. and 5,000 clamps. and more knowledge & experience...
dave
FOW wrote:
> Dave I think your just jealous that he has ALL the cool tools ! I
> want his wide belt sander !
> "Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>I think Norm is a cool guy and his easy going personality is a pleasure
>>to absorb during his shows. Quite a difference between him and most of
>>the other celebrity woodworkers.
>>
>>As far as what seems to elicit the most disapproval, I'd venture to say
>>it's his penchant for overusing his brad nailer. I'm not fond of nail
>>holes or filling them.
>>
>>Most of the time I'm too busy to catch his shows, but when I do, I feel
>>bad for having missed so many of them. I admire the guy.
>>
>>dave
>>
>>BJS wrote:
>>
>>
>>>As a child, I always enjoyed tooling around in our garage. I built a
>>>few 2x4 and plywood tables and other projects. When I left home around
>>>age 20, I was off in apartments for a number of years. Over the last
>>>couple of years I have watched NYW, Norm, and TOH on PBS. It rekindled
>>>my interest in woodworking, and I vowed to create a shop and build
>>>projects once I had the space.
>>>
>>>Well, I have a decent shop now. A TS, a jointer, a compound miter saw,
>>>and some hand power tools.
>>>
>>>Norm is the guy who got me interested in woodworking. He has inspired
>>>me to take up this great hobby. Maybe it is my ignorance, but I have
>>>always been impressed by what I see him produce. I am not so stupid as
>>>to not realize that he makes mistakes, and for the sake of TV time,
>>>the mistakes aren't shown. I realize that it would not be as easy as
>>>Norm made it look.
>>>
>>>I've been lurking here on this NG on and off. I've come for tool
>>>reveiws, solutions to problems, etc. And I noticed here and there a
>>>war that has gone on for a very long time on this NG - to Norm or not
>>>to Norm.
>>>
>>>Why?
>>>
>>>What, specifically, is so bad about Norm? If he has been my main
>>>source of learning and inspiration, will I be damned to a future of
>>>poor quality projects?
>>>
>>>I see that a lot of the fighting comes from the "purist" hand toolers
>>>vs. the Norm power toolers. Some people seem to be offended just by
>>>the fact that he uses power tools. It is interesting to note that in
>>>Norm's first book, he mentions how he grew up using hand tools, and
>>>mentions the skills that his dad taught him. He says NYW is a
>>>departure for him from those teachings, and a chance to use power
>>>tools to build traditional furniture.
>>>
>>>So, two questions from a ww newbie:
>>>
>>>How am I being harmed in my quest to make nice projects if I follow
>>>Norm's techniques? What are specific things he does that are "bad" and
>>>what are the "better" ways of doing them?
>>>
>>>Thanks for your comments.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>Brian
>>
>
>
"BJS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> How am I being harmed in my quest to make nice projects if I follow
> Norm's techniques? What are specific things he does that are "bad" and
> what are the "better" ways of doing them?
Swallow the Red Pill if you really want to know. Swallow the Blue Pill if
you wish to remain blissful.
"Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> 99.8% of the Norm bashing is done by people with more time in front of the
> TV then in the shop. It's done so they can feel like they are playing with
> the big boys and it is safe. It is hardly likely that they will be faced
> with confronting Norm on the various woodworking issues so, regardless of
> how inane the post, they get to spout off sounding like they know what they
> are talking about and need not be bothered with facts.
Sure, a lot of Nahm-bashing is done by arm-chair woodworkers.
Heck, this is Usenet, so most of what goes on here is done by
arm-chair [insert name of hobby here]. :-} (To say nothing of the
trolls.)
But there are legit gripes about Nahm. I know that many have
credited him with bringing ww'ing to the masses, and I can't argue
that. I know any number of folks here on the wreck who credit him for
their interest. But for every one of those, it's possible that you
could find someone who was totally put off by the appearance that it
is necessary to own all sorts of power tools in order to make
anything. I know I used to watch Nahm before I ever raised a plane in
anger :-), and I sincerely thought it was way beyond my
budget/abilities.
Other personal gripes I have are his finishing techniques (poly
isn't really the best finish for everything), his bradnailer fixation,
his apparent lack of knowledge about wood-movement issues (though I
hear he's getting better about that), and his penchant for smearing
insane amounts of galoo all over the place.
We may disagree on some of the above, but they are certainly worth
discussing when they are being presented on teevee on a regular basis
by someone who is looked to as an authority on woodworking matters.
As for the guy himself ... I like Nahm. He seems like a regular
guy who'd be fun to share a couple beers with.
Chuck Vance
Just say (tmPL) But first, a few words about shop safety ...
Dan wrote:
>
> To get back on the Off Topic topic, I've been in chats and watched
> interviews with quite a few SF writers, and Harlan Ellison has had my
> vote for most arrogant and conceited for quite some time now. I guess
> Pournelled is up there but nowhere near the top.
A SF writer came ot my university. I don't remember who, 1977 was quite
awhile ago. The phrase he kept using during his talk was, "I give good
reading." I don't know if he was successful in spending "quality time" with
one or more coeds. Jerk.
-- Mark
Fri, Dec 12, 2003, 6:28am (EST-3) [email protected] (Conan=A0the=A0Librarian)
says:
<snip> I sincerely thought it was way beyond my budget/abilities. <snip>
I read that, and thought, "I never thought that". Then realized
different background, different generation. You could be right. On the
other hand, it shows people how a piece of furniture goes together - and
can be made by a person, and doesn't have to come from a furniture
company. Norm might nail stuff, but look at factory made furniture and
see some of the high-priced crap they put out. I think Norm's is a lot
more quality, nails or not.
someone who is looked to as an authority on woodworking matters.
That struck me as funny. I've never thought of him as an
authority. I have thought of him as showing people that things aren't
as complicated to make as they might think. Sort of, if I can do it,
you can do it. And, that putting a nail or brad in here or there isn't
the end of the world.
JOAT
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we are here we might
as well dance.
- Unknown
Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 12 Dec 2003.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofalltrades/SOMETUNESILIKE/
In rec.woodworking
Larry Jaques <jake@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 13:42:02 +0000, Andy Dingley
><[email protected]> brought forth from the murky depths:
>
>>Jerry Pournelle (crappy sci fi author) started writing for Byte (once
>>good computer mag, now defunct) as a tame idiot user from The Real
>>World. Leave him there for a couple of years and he started to believe
>>himself that he was some sort of technical authority.
>
>I happen to like Pournelle. His stuff isn't nearly as good as Larry
>Niven's, but I just picked up 3 more Niven/Pournelle books at the
>Leebrary today. Together, they're GREAT!
Back before the internet boom, I was on GEnie Online Network. It was a
CompuServe, AOL competitor. Pournelle had his own forum and often posted.
He was an arrogant asshole and didn't like the time I proved him wrong
publicly in a very simple physics problem.
If you're curious, he originally stated that a head on collision, identical
cars, both traveling at 50mph, was the same as hitting a brick wall at
100mph. Wrong. It is the same as hitting a brick wall at 50mph.
In rec.woodworking
Dan <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sat 13 Dec 2003 06:56:19p, [email protected] (Bruce) wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> If you're curious, he originally stated that a head on collision,
>> identical cars, both traveling at 50mph, was the same as hitting a
>> brick wall at 100mph. Wrong. It is the same as hitting a brick wall
>> at 50mph.
>
>Eh? You're saying that the energy released in two cars colliding head on is
>the same as in one car hitting a stationary wall?
>
>I'm willing to go with the fact that it's not the same as hitting a wall at
>100 miles an hour, but I'm having trouble with the "same as 50" part. Yes,
>each car is decelerating from 50 to 0 very suddenly, but there's an awful
>lot more momentum involved when both objects are traveling, and I can't
>believe there's no difference.
>
>Lemme hunt a bit here... ah.
>http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae119.cfm
LOL, I knew this would get it started. No, I'm not saying that. There is
exactly TWICE as much energy released. Fortunately, it is released between
2 cars so each car sees exactly what it would see if it it a wall at 50mph.
When Pournelle realized his mistake, be tried to cover his ass by saying
that the collision with the other car would be more dangerous because of
flying whiskey bottles and glass and stuff. Talk about lame.
In rec.woodworking
Silvan <[email protected]> wrote:
>Andy Dingley wrote:
>
>> BTW - He popped up in Dr Dobbs recently. Hope that's not a regular
>> column - damned waste of paper.
>
>While I always found his computer-related writing rather clueless, I like a
>number of Niven/Pournelle novels. I no longer read much fiction, and I'm
>more likely to read something old and familiar than something new that
>might be a waste of time. "The Legacy of Heorott" (I probably spelled that
>wrong) is one of my all-time A #1 numero uno favorites.
>
>That and "Ender's Game." (Card, yes, I know. I was just pondering.)
Who wrote Footfall? That was damn good.
Sun, Dec 14, 2003, 6:17pm (EST+5) [email protected] (Bruce) asks:
Who wrote Footfall? That was damn good.
Larry Niven, Jerry Pournelle
They also wrote Lucifer's Hammer. Also excellent. I've got both
saved, from my sci-fi reading days. Nowadays I prefer Terry Pratchett's
Discworld series. More realistic.
JOAT
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we are here we might
as well dance.
- Unknown
Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 14 Dec 2003.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofalltrades/SOMETUNESILIKE/
"T." wrote:
> Sun, Dec 14, 2003, 6:17pm (EST+5) [email protected] (Bruce) asks:
> Who wrote Footfall? That was damn good.
>
> Larry Niven, Jerry Pournelle
>
> They also wrote Lucifer's Hammer. Also excellent. I've got both
> saved, from my sci-fi reading days. Nowadays I prefer Terry Pratchett's
> Discworld series. More realistic.
"The Mote in God's Eye" is my favorite.
>
>
> JOAT
> Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we are here we might
> as well dance.
> - Unknown
>
> Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
> Web Page Update 14 Dec 2003.
> Some tunes I like.
> http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofalltrades/SOMETUNESILIKE/
--
Tom Royer
Lead Engineer, Software Test
The MITRE Corporation
202 Burlington Road
Bedford, MA 01730
Voice: (781) 271-8399
Cell: (978) 290-2086
FAX: (781) 271-8500
[email protected]
"If you're not free to fail, you're not free." --Gene Burns
Silvan wrote:
> Tom Royer wrote:
>
> > "The Mote in God's Eye" is my favorite.
>
> Was that Niven/Pournelle or just Niven? I'm thinking Niven alone.
Maybe I'm mis remembering, I thought it was a collaboration.
>
>
> I haven't read that in well nigh forever, but it's a good'un. Most
> realistic space battles I can ever remember reading in anything.
>
> The sequel was OK too, though I don't remember much more than the title.
> "The Gripping Hand."
>
> Who wrote "Ringworld?" That was Niven too, wasn't it?
Yep, "Ringworld" is Niven alone.
Back on topic: Norm got me into wood working. And even my
father-in-law, a retired finish carpenter, watches him.
>
>
> --
> Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
> Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
> http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
--
Tom Royer
Lead Engineer, Software Test
The MITRE Corporation
202 Burlington Road
Bedford, MA 01730
Voice: (781) 271-8399
Cell: (978) 290-2086
FAX: (781) 271-8500
[email protected]
"If you're not free to fail, you're not free." --Gene Burns
In rec.woodworking
Tom Royer <[email protected]> wrote:
>"The Mote in God's Eye" is my favorite.
Good one!!
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:41:20 -0500, Tom Royer <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Silvan wrote:
>
>> Tom Royer wrote:
>>
>> > "The Mote in God's Eye" is my favorite.
>>
>> Was that Niven/Pournelle or just Niven? I'm thinking Niven alone.
>
>Maybe I'm mis remembering, I thought it was a collaboration.
collaboration. well under Larry Niven's usual standards.
>
>>
>>
>> I haven't read that in well nigh forever, but it's a good'un. Most
>> realistic space battles I can ever remember reading in anything.
>>
>> The sequel was OK too, though I don't remember much more than the title.
>> "The Gripping Hand."
>>
>> Who wrote "Ringworld?" That was Niven too, wasn't it?
>
>Yep, "Ringworld" is Niven alone.
great stuff.
On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:13:51 +0000, Andy Dingley
<[email protected]> scribbled
>On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:45:28 -0500, Silvan
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Haven't read Discworld, no idea what it is.
>The McDonald's hamburger of fantasy fiction.
^^^^^^^^^
>Funny and tasty while you're reading them, over too quickly and half
^^^^^
????????? Referring to McDonald's as tasty?!?!?!?!!!! Did you actually
mean funny tasting instead? Was that a pune?
>ObWoodworking: Anyone know how to plane sapient pearwood ? Damn stuff
>is refusing to get in the planer.
Where did you get it? JOAT was looking for some a few months ago.
Luigi
Replace "no" with "yk" for real email address
T. wrote:
> They also wrote Lucifer's Hammer. Also excellent. I've got both
> saved, from my sci-fi reading days. Nowadays I prefer Terry Pratchett's
> Discworld series. More realistic.
Lucifer's Hammer... Wow, that's one I haven't thought about in a long time.
Haven't read Discworld, no idea what it is.
I don't read sci-fi much anymore. Usually either howto books or thrillers
set in contemporary society. Especially forensic/medical stuff, like Robin
Cook and that guy who writes the Lincoln Rhyme novels.
I don't read at all much anymore though. Reading's not much better than TV
as a form of active entertainment. I prefer to produce something. Written
words, source code, drawings, paintings, wooden items.... Books next, and
then TV dead last.
If people had books on CD instead of books on tape, I might listen to books
while driving, but the last time I spent any time looking around inside a
truckstop (admittedly years ago) they were all on tape only. No tape
player. Tapes sound like crap anyway.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Sun, Dec 14, 2003, 7:45pm [email protected] (Silvan)
proclaims:
<snip> Haven't read Discworld, no idea what it is. <snip>
Then learn cricket. Or, was that cockroach? No matter, some
insect. Rincewind is my hero.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22DISCWORLD%22
Try this link, for the beer of choice.
http://community.webtv.net/Jakofalltrades/JOATorJackOfAll/scrapbookFiles/importD2.JPG
JOAT
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we are here we might
as well dance.
- Unknown
Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 14 Dec 2003.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofalltrades/SOMETUNESILIKE/
Tom Royer wrote:
> "The Mote in God's Eye" is my favorite.
Was that Niven/Pournelle or just Niven? I'm thinking Niven alone.
I haven't read that in well nigh forever, but it's a good'un. Most
realistic space battles I can ever remember reading in anything.
The sequel was OK too, though I don't remember much more than the title.
"The Gripping Hand."
Who wrote "Ringworld?" That was Niven too, wasn't it?
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 15:22:22 -0500 (EST), [email protected]
(T.) wrote:
>Sun, Dec 14, 2003, 6:17pm (EST+5) [email protected] (Bruce) asks:
>Who wrote Footfall? That was damn good.
>
> Larry Niven, Jerry Pournelle
>
> They also wrote Lucifer's Hammer.
This book gave me nightmares when I was a teenager. <G>
Barry
On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 18:06:54 -0500, Silvan
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Tom Royer wrote:
>
>> "The Mote in God's Eye" is my favorite.
>
> Was that Niven/Pournelle or just Niven? I'm thinking Niven alone.
Niven-Pournelle.
>
> I haven't read that in well nigh forever, but it's a good'un. Most
> realistic space battles I can ever remember reading in anything.
>
> The sequel was OK too, though I don't remember much more than the title.
> "The Gripping Hand."
On the one hand, it's a sequal.
On the other hand, it's by authors I enjoy.
The gripping hand is that it's a good book for a number of reasons.
Well worth reading, imo.
>
> Who wrote "Ringworld?" That was Niven too, wasn't it?
>
Just Niven iirc. He also wrote the Gateway books.
On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:45:28 -0500, Silvan
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Haven't read Discworld, no idea what it is.
The McDonald's hamburger of fantasy fiction.
Funny and tasty while you're reading them, over too quickly and half
an hour later you forget you've had it at all.
Then you look down and you've turned into a 25 stone comic-book otaku
with a collection of Robert McRincewind action figures.
ObWoodworking: Anyone know how to plane sapient pearwood ? Damn stuff
is refusing to get in the planer.
In rec.woodworking
Dan <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sat 13 Dec 2003 10:20:53p, [email protected] (Bruce) wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> LOL, I knew this would get it started. No, I'm not saying that.
>> There is exactly TWICE as much energy released. Fortunately, it is
>> released between 2 cars so each car sees exactly what it would see if
>> it it a wall at 50mph.
>
>Well... an absolutely immovable, completely undamageable wall, yes. Then
>all the energy would be absorbed by the car and none by the wall. If the
>wall takes any damage, then the car absorbs less, so a head-on would do
>more damage because both cars absorb all the energy.
All that is assumed in the thought experiment. It is also assumed that the
cars are identical in size, shape and weight and meet exactly head on,
bumper to bumper.
I think we all realize these circumstances are hard to meet in real life.
Most head ons are NOT direct hits and not all of the energy is immediately
dissipated because the cars will spin past each other. Unfortunately,
because the drivers are both to the inside lane, they usually catch the
brunt of it anyway in those headlight to headlight crashes.
Great, can he build a blanket chest?
--
Mike G.
[email protected]
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"Charles Krug" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 00:35:57 GMT, Larry Jaques <jake@di\/ersify.com>
wrote:
> > On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 13:42:02 +0000, Andy Dingley
> ><[email protected]> brought forth from the murky depths:
> >
> >>Jerry Pournelle (crappy sci fi author) started writing for Byte (once
> >>good computer mag, now defunct) as a tame idiot user from The Real
> >>World. Leave him there for a couple of years and he started to believe
> >>himself that he was some sort of technical authority.
> >
> > I happen to like Pournelle. His stuff isn't nearly as good as Larry
> > Niven's, but I just picked up 3 more Niven/Pournelle books at the
> > Leebrary today. Together, they're GREAT!
> >
>
> That would be Dr. Jerry Pournelle, who got into Sci Fi by serving as
> Robert Heinlein's technical resource.
>
> Who wrote "The Strategy of Technology" which was THE book the War
> College used to teach command staff how to fight a cold war?
>
> Who retired from aerospace engineering to write science fiction?
>
> IOW, he IS, exactly a rocket scientist, albeit a retired one.
>
Bruce wrote:
> Who wrote Footfall? That was damn good.
Niven/Pournelle... The shaft was 50 makaskrupkith in length and all that...
Yeah, that one's on my list too. (No idea if I spelled "makaskrupkith"
right, but knowing me, I probably did. It's only the nrmoal worsd I splel
wrnog.)
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 00:35:57 +0000, Larry Jaques wrote:
> I happen to like Pournelle. His stuff isn't nearly as good as Larry
> Niven's, but I just picked up 3 more Niven/Pournelle books at the
> Leebrary today. Together, they're GREAT!
>
> I believe Byte is still being put out and Pournelle is still
> writing for them. It was a very good mag for awhile there. I
> read it a few years back when I was still doing hardware sales.
>
Niven and Pournelle's "Inferno" is a good one.
-Doug
On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 17:50:15 GMT, [email protected] (Charles Krug)
wrote:
>IOW, he IS, exactly a rocket scientist,
So is Steve Bennett !
On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 04:20:53 GMT, [email protected] (Bruce) wrote:
>the collision with the other car would be more dangerous because of
>flying whiskey bottles and glass and stuff.
Flying whisky bottles are a serious hazard in Pournelle's world.
BTW - He popped up in Dr Dobbs recently. Hope that's not a regular
column - damned waste of paper.
On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 00:38:58 GMT, Doug Winterburn
<[email protected]> brought forth from the murky depths:
>Niven and Pournelle's "Inferno" is a good one.
I finished "Ringworld", then "Ringworld Engineers" last month.
Then I found "The Mote in God's Eye" (excellent also) and Jerry's
"King David's Spaceship" (fairly good but not up to par with
Larry's solo work or their team efforts.)
Today I brought home "A World Out Of Time", "Oath of Fealty"
and "The Smoke Ring". "Trees" and a couple others are left.
I'm trying to read those I can find locally in order of their
writing.
I cleaned up the shop tonight and am going to paint the bleeding
wall with some of the Kilz2 tomorrow morning. That guy must have
smoked his cigars out there for decades, I swear. Anyway, THEN I
can build some cabinets and find the rest of my tool and get to
work on one/some/all of the projects I've been putting off.
Maybe even the low^Hvely bow saur.
==========================================================
I drank WHAT? + http://www.diversify.com
--Socrates + Web Application Programming
Don't you like Andy Rooney either?
Those are some mighty strong adjectives you are tossing about.
dave
Mark & Juanita wrote:
snip
> I always found Pournelle to be tedious, particularly compared to Poul
> Anderson, Roger Zelazny, Robert Heinlein (in his earlier years before he
> became a dour, intolerant curmudgeon), or even Keith Laumer.
BTW, Byte does still exist as an online mag at byte.com, and yes Jerry is
still doing his column.
"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:39:32 -0500 (EST), [email protected]
> (T.) wrote:
>
> > That struck me as funny. I've never thought of him as an
> >authority. I have thought of him as showing people that things aren't
> >as complicated to make as they might think.
>
> You stick someone on TV, they _become_ an authority. Maybe US TV
> isn't as bad as the UK, but wait until some more of our house-porn
> shows make it over there.
>
> Jerry Pournelle (crappy sci fi author) started writing for Byte (once
> good computer mag, now defunct) as a tame idiot user from The Real
> World. Leave him there for a couple of years and he started to believe
> himself that he was some sort of technical authority.
>
> --
> Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
On Sat 13 Dec 2003 06:56:19p, [email protected] (Bruce) wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> If you're curious, he originally stated that a head on collision,
> identical cars, both traveling at 50mph, was the same as hitting a
> brick wall at 100mph. Wrong. It is the same as hitting a brick wall
> at 50mph.
Eh? You're saying that the energy released in two cars colliding head on is
the same as in one car hitting a stationary wall?
I'm willing to go with the fact that it's not the same as hitting a wall at
100 miles an hour, but I'm having trouble with the "same as 50" part. Yes,
each car is decelerating from 50 to 0 very suddenly, but there's an awful
lot more momentum involved when both objects are traveling, and I can't
believe there's no difference.
Lemme hunt a bit here... ah.
http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae119.cfm
On Sat 13 Dec 2003 10:20:53p, [email protected] (Bruce) wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> LOL, I knew this would get it started. No, I'm not saying that.
> There is exactly TWICE as much energy released. Fortunately, it is
> released between 2 cars so each car sees exactly what it would see if
> it it a wall at 50mph.
Well... an absolutely immovable, completely undamageable wall, yes. Then
all the energy would be absorbed by the car and none by the wall. If the
wall takes any damage, then the car absorbs less, so a head-on would do
more damage because both cars absorb all the energy.
To get back on the Off Topic topic, I've been in chats and watched
interviews with quite a few SF writers, and Harlan Ellison has had my vote
for most arrogant and conceited for quite some time now. I guess Pournelled
is up there but nowhere near the top.
Dan
In article <[email protected]>, Larry Jaques
<jake@di\/ersify.com> says...
> On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 13:42:02 +0000, Andy Dingley
> <[email protected]> brought forth from the murky depths:
>
> >Jerry Pournelle (crappy sci fi author) started writing for Byte (once
> >good computer mag, now defunct) as a tame idiot user from The Real
> >World. Leave him there for a couple of years and he started to believe
> >himself that he was some sort of technical authority.
>
> I happen to like Pournelle. His stuff isn't nearly as good as Larry
> Niven's, but I just picked up 3 more Niven/Pournelle books at the
> Leebrary today. Together, they're GREAT!
>
I always found Pournelle to be tedious, particularly compared to Poul
Anderson, Roger Zelazny, Robert Heinlein (in his earlier years before he
became a dour, intolerant curmudgeon), or even Keith Laumer.
<<That would be Dr. Jerry Pournelle, who got into Sci Fi by serving as
Robert Heinlein's technical resource.
Who wrote "The Strategy of Technology" which was THE book the War
College used to teach command staff how to fight a cold war?
Who retired from aerospace engineering to write science fiction?
IOW, he IS, exactly a rocket scientist, albeit a retired one.>>
Since this thread has drifted to a discussion of sci-fi writers, I would
like to point out that the editor of a well known woodworking trade
publication has also written a couple of sci-fi novels and had a number of
other stories included in sci-fi anthologies.
Lee
--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"
Andy Dingley wrote:
> BTW - He popped up in Dr Dobbs recently. Hope that's not a regular
> column - damned waste of paper.
While I always found his computer-related writing rather clueless, I like a
number of Niven/Pournelle novels. I no longer read much fiction, and I'm
more likely to read something old and familiar than something new that
might be a waste of time. "The Legacy of Heorott" (I probably spelled that
wrong) is one of my all-time A #1 numero uno favorites.
That and "Ender's Game." (Card, yes, I know. I was just pondering.)
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 13:42:02 +0000, Andy Dingley
<[email protected]> brought forth from the murky depths:
>Jerry Pournelle (crappy sci fi author) started writing for Byte (once
>good computer mag, now defunct) as a tame idiot user from The Real
>World. Leave him there for a couple of years and he started to believe
>himself that he was some sort of technical authority.
I happen to like Pournelle. His stuff isn't nearly as good as Larry
Niven's, but I just picked up 3 more Niven/Pournelle books at the
Leebrary today. Together, they're GREAT!
I believe Byte is still being put out and Pournelle is still
writing for them. It was a very good mag for awhile there. I
read it a few years back when I was still doing hardware sales.
http://www.byte.com/ (Yup, he's still there.)
--
Save the Endangered ROAD NARROWS! -|- www.diversify.com
Ban SUVs today! -|- Full Service Websites
On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:39:32 -0500 (EST), [email protected]
(T.) wrote:
> That struck me as funny. I've never thought of him as an
>authority. I have thought of him as showing people that things aren't
>as complicated to make as they might think.
You stick someone on TV, they _become_ an authority. Maybe US TV
isn't as bad as the UK, but wait until some more of our house-porn
shows make it over there.
Jerry Pournelle (crappy sci fi author) started writing for Byte (once
good computer mag, now defunct) as a tame idiot user from The Real
World. Leave him there for a couple of years and he started to believe
himself that he was some sort of technical authority.
--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
Bruce wrote:
> If you're curious, he originally stated that a head on collision,
> identical cars, both traveling at 50mph, was the same as hitting a
> brick wall at 100mph. Wrong. It is the same as hitting a brick wall
> at 50mph.
<g> Depends on the observer's position. Each driver would get a 50 mph
impact (I guess), but a fly on the front bumper would get 50 mph from two
ways. ;-)
-- Mark
On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 00:35:57 GMT, Larry Jaques <jake@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 13:42:02 +0000, Andy Dingley
><[email protected]> brought forth from the murky depths:
>
>>Jerry Pournelle (crappy sci fi author) started writing for Byte (once
>>good computer mag, now defunct) as a tame idiot user from The Real
>>World. Leave him there for a couple of years and he started to believe
>>himself that he was some sort of technical authority.
>
> I happen to like Pournelle. His stuff isn't nearly as good as Larry
> Niven's, but I just picked up 3 more Niven/Pournelle books at the
> Leebrary today. Together, they're GREAT!
>
That would be Dr. Jerry Pournelle, who got into Sci Fi by serving as
Robert Heinlein's technical resource.
Who wrote "The Strategy of Technology" which was THE book the War
College used to teach command staff how to fight a cold war?
Who retired from aerospace engineering to write science fiction?
IOW, he IS, exactly a rocket scientist, albeit a retired one.
[email protected] (Larry Bud) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > So, two questions from a ww newbie:
> >
> > How am I being harmed in my quest to make nice projects if I follow
> > Norm's techniques? What are specific things he does that are "bad" and
> > what are the "better" ways of doing them?
>
> I love Norm, but I think the main beef is that he seems to nail
> EVERYTHING together. You don't need nails, just glue and a crapload
> of clamps. The nails do nothing but hold the piece together while the
> glue dries, and they put holes in an otherwise nice surface.
My son-in-law and I like to joke about 'Nailgun Norm'.
> So, two questions from a ww newbie:
>
> How am I being harmed in my quest to make nice projects if I follow
> Norm's techniques? What are specific things he does that are "bad" and
> what are the "better" ways of doing them?
I love Norm, but I think the main beef is that he seems to nail
EVERYTHING together. You don't need nails, just glue and a crapload
of clamps. The nails do nothing but hold the piece together while the
glue dries, and they put holes in an otherwise nice surface.
Otherwise, I have to say, I would know the difference between a
mortise and a tenon if it weren't for Norm.
Unisaw A100 wrote:
> pants. Evil would be if he actually had some influence.
> He's fairly benign but hard to stomach.
What, you mean you don't turn to Bob for help when you strip the nuts on
your bicycle with ordinary pliers?
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
"John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> -snip-
>
> There was a thread running through the entire
> presentation in that he is always moving forward... developing new skills
> and a greater understanding of what makes a fine piece of furniture.
>
> -snip-
>
> John
Thanks, John, for your response, and to those from everyone else.
I saw your discussion of your meeting with Norm at OSV in a previous
thread. Sounds like it was an enjoyable experience.
I think your comments about Norm progressing as a woodworker are
accurate from what I can tell. I've noticed how his techniques have
changed from the earlier shows to the later shows. I've seen a lot of
changes in how he handles cross-grain situations and in accounting for
movement.
In one of his earliest shows he builds a a Shaker bedside table. It
has a small top with breadboard edges. In the show he uses glue to
secure the the entire length of the t&g that attach the breadboard
edge to the end grain of the top. He also secures the top to the rest
of the assembly by using a cleat on either end to which the top is
fastened with drywall screws.
Now he would never attach a top like that. He'd attach the breadboard
edge with an inch or two of glue at either end of the t&g. The top
would then be fastened to the rest of the assembly with wooden clips.
The clips would be screwed to the top have a small tenon that fits
into a grove, holding the top to the assembly whil still allowing the
clip to float in the grove with any movement in the top.
I like Norm. And I want to learn what I can from him while still
realizing that there are others out there (including those on this NG)
that I can also learn from. I just wanted to make sure that there
wasn't anything "fatal" that Norm does that I should ensure that I
never do.
Also, it is about experience as well. The first project I built was a
Norm bookshelf. And I used by brad nailer like crazy. Well, I hadn't
though about the fact that I would have to fill all those holes! Now,
I know. In the future, I will be more likely to rely less on nails and
more on other techniques.
Maybe biscuits or pocket screw jointery. ;)
Thanks, again, to everyone who responded.
Thanks,
Brian
David Babcock wrote:
> Having family that works at WGBH in Boston, I was privileged? to get some of
> the dirt when he decided to leave TOH.
And what do you hear about the departure of Steve Thomas?
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
Mike,
Sounds like my Saturday mornings.
The point I liked was, with the two shows back-to-back {or even just
'available'} you got a 'balance' of technique.
It's nice to have a shop full of tools, but what happens if you have no
power - the power tool is broken - or you are 'out in the field' ? {Or on
the boat or 'on the hook'?}
I'm 'collecting' some of the power stuff that Norm illustrates, and used any
number of Roy's techniques.
Regards,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop
"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >> > How am I being harmed in my quest to make nice projects if I follow
> >> > Norm's techniques? What are specific things he does that are "bad"
and
> >> > what are the "better" ways of doing them?
>
> Not so much bad as out of touch with the common man, maybe.
>
> I used to watch Norm and Roy after Saturday morning cartoons, back in the
> mid to late '80s. Roy made beautiful, complicated stuff with practically
> nothing, and Norm had a specialized doodad to mechanize almost everything.
>
> From what I hear, Norm has a lot more specialized doodads now than he did
> back then.
>
> I don't watch either of them, or any other TV for that matter, but I think
> I'd still prefer Roy's show to Norm's. I'm *not* a Neander. I'm a
> Cro-Magnon maybe. I do some Neander stuff, and some Normish stuff. I
have
> no desire to buy a planer and jointer, and no desire to buy a whole
> collection of good hand saws or a brace and bit.
>
> --
> Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
> Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
> http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
>
"John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "BJS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> ...
>
> > How am I being harmed in my quest to make nice projects if I follow
> > Norm's techniques? What are specific things he does that are "bad" and
> > what are the "better" ways of doing them?
>
> This past August I spent most of a day with Norm at Old Sturbridge Village.
> One of the day's events was a luncheon. At the luncheon Norm gave a
> presentation comparing and contrasting 19th century furniture making
> technologies with 21st century technologies. During this presentation Norm
> discussed his evolution from carpenter, to TOH, to NYW and how the rolls
> made significantly different demands of him. He also discussed how his
> skills have evolved over time and how tools have evolved with him.
>
> Two quick examples:
>
> -He seldom uses a lathe duplicator now as his turning skills have gotten
> much better and he can end up with a better product using gouges and skews.
>
> -He doesn't use the molding head cutter in the table saw any longer. The
> router table with "new" bit styles work better--cutting beads was his
> specific example.
>
> This change over time also applies to the finishing techniques and
> materials. He had a piece at OSV that will appear during the new season
> (starts early '04). The finishing techniques he discussed were much
> different than anything he did 10+ years ago and he felt that he needed more
> experience to get it right. There was a thread running through the entire
> presentation in that he is always moving forward... developing new skills
> and a greater understanding of what makes a fine piece of furniture.
>
> Norm's point was that he isn't the same guy as he was when NYW started. We,
> however, are inundated with reruns that make the changes over time less
> salient than they should be. I think it was a tactful way of saying that
> much of the criticism is not thoughtful criticism as it ignores his skill
> development over time. Even Maloof and Marks didn't come out of the womb
> doing fine work! ;-)
>
> It was a wonderful experience and I recommend it to anyone if Norm does it
> again.
>
> John
It might be that we are all a little jealous of Norm....he makes a
very good living doing what we love to do and most of us do it for
very little money. We dream of the day that we could make a living
being a woodworker. Norm has done more to promote woodworking to the
masses than any other, for this I respect and thank Norm....keep
spreading the word.
Mike from American Sycamore Woodworkers' Retreat
www.americansycamoreretreat.com
.
On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:14:05 GMT, Scott Cramer
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Bob is willing to shill any product for any advertiser willing to pay his fee.
So ignoring the tool pr0n for a moment, what does he make ? Does
anyone ever look at that ?
--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
Having family that works at WGBH in Boston, I was privileged? to get some of
the dirt when he decided to leave TOH. Did I say leave? Actually it was kind
of mutual, WGBH wanted him gone, and he wanted more money, so he was allowed
to leave.
As you can probably tell, he wanted Sears to be the exclusive supplier to
the show, because they would compensate him personally. This sort of danced
around the no commercials format of PBS.
The contractors revolted a little, they didn't want to be told what tools
they had to use. First ripple in the water.
He wanted to be more in control of the format, the show, and force his
ideas. Russ Morash is said to have laughed for days. Second larger ripple.
Most of the supplies are donations, lumber, plumbing, windows, and on and
on. All of which the home owner is responsible for come Tax time. As a home
owner you have to sign over lots of creative and repair rights to the
producers, who do their best to contain budget. The problem WGBH had with
Bob was he consistently made choices/changes that most times caused budgets
to explode, hence causing many many lawsuits. Ripples became tidal waves on
this one.
Then he said the two magic words, "Sears" and "Money"
WGBH said "Goodbye Bob".
Dave
"Coach Mike" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> OK, I'll bite. Why is Bob evil?
>
> Mike
>
> > So much for rambling. JOAT said it: "Norm is good, Roy is good, Bob is
> > evil."
> >
>
>
>
Hi Chuck
That's is why I said 99.8% and not 100%. Yes there are things done on TV
that do make for good threads on pro's and con's but, unfortunately, digging
them out of the load of bashing for the sake of being cool just isn't worth
the effort.I started filtering all such threads back when there was a month
long debate on which DIY hostess had the nicest ass. Granted that was an.
extreme low point but not by much.
--
Mike G.
[email protected]
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"Conan the Librarian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > 99.8% of the Norm bashing is done by people with more time in front of
the
> > TV then in the shop. It's done so they can feel like they are playing
with
> > the big boys and it is safe. It is hardly likely that they will be faced
> > with confronting Norm on the various woodworking issues so, regardless
of
> > how inane the post, they get to spout off sounding like they know what
they
> > are talking about and need not be bothered with facts.
>
> Sure, a lot of Nahm-bashing is done by arm-chair woodworkers.
> Heck, this is Usenet, so most of what goes on here is done by
> arm-chair [insert name of hobby here]. :-} (To say nothing of the
> trolls.)
>
> But there are legit gripes about Nahm. I know that many have
> credited him with bringing ww'ing to the masses, and I can't argue
> that. I know any number of folks here on the wreck who credit him for
> their interest. But for every one of those, it's possible that you
> could find someone who was totally put off by the appearance that it
> is necessary to own all sorts of power tools in order to make
> anything. I know I used to watch Nahm before I ever raised a plane in
> anger :-), and I sincerely thought it was way beyond my
> budget/abilities.
>
> Other personal gripes I have are his finishing techniques (poly
> isn't really the best finish for everything), his bradnailer fixation,
> his apparent lack of knowledge about wood-movement issues (though I
> hear he's getting better about that), and his penchant for smearing
> insane amounts of galoo all over the place.
>
> We may disagree on some of the above, but they are certainly worth
> discussing when they are being presented on teevee on a regular basis
> by someone who is looked to as an authority on woodworking matters.
>
> As for the guy himself ... I like Nahm. He seems like a regular
> guy who'd be fun to share a couple beers with.
>
>
> Chuck Vance
> Just say (tmPL) But first, a few words about shop safety ...
"BJS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
...
> How am I being harmed in my quest to make nice projects if I follow
> Norm's techniques? What are specific things he does that are "bad" and
> what are the "better" ways of doing them?
This past August I spent most of a day with Norm at Old Sturbridge Village.
One of the day's events was a luncheon. At the luncheon Norm gave a
presentation comparing and contrasting 19th century furniture making
technologies with 21st century technologies. During this presentation Norm
discussed his evolution from carpenter, to TOH, to NYW and how the rolls
made significantly different demands of him. He also discussed how his
skills have evolved over time and how tools have evolved with him.
Two quick examples:
-He seldom uses a lathe duplicator now as his turning skills have gotten
much better and he can end up with a better product using gouges and skews.
-He doesn't use the molding head cutter in the table saw any longer. The
router table with "new" bit styles work better--cutting beads was his
specific example.
This change over time also applies to the finishing techniques and
materials. He had a piece at OSV that will appear during the new season
(starts early '04). The finishing techniques he discussed were much
different than anything he did 10+ years ago and he felt that he needed more
experience to get it right. There was a thread running through the entire
presentation in that he is always moving forward... developing new skills
and a greater understanding of what makes a fine piece of furniture.
Norm's point was that he isn't the same guy as he was when NYW started. We,
however, are inundated with reruns that make the changes over time less
salient than they should be. I think it was a tactful way of saying that
much of the criticism is not thoughtful criticism as it ignores his skill
development over time. Even Maloof and Marks didn't come out of the womb
doing fine work! ;-)
It was a wonderful experience and I recommend it to anyone if Norm does it
again.
John
BJS wrote:
> I've been lurking here on this NG on and off. I've come for tool
> reveiws, solutions to problems, etc. And I noticed here and there a
> war that has gone on for a very long time on this NG - to Norm or not
> to Norm.
>
> Why?
>
> What, specifically, is so bad about Norm? If he has been my main
> source of learning and inspiration, will I be damned to a future of
> poor quality projects?
Nothing...some people are just snobs! ;)
But seriously...everybody approaches woodworking differently, with
differnt goals. The furniture Norm produces is solid and usable...but
is not of the exceptionally high quality that you see from David Marks.
And of course, there's the polyurethane thing. Norm puts it on just
about everything...so people who don't like poly bash him for that.
Personally, my skills will probably never match Norms. With the exception
of leaving visible brad-nail heads everywhere, I strive to (someday) be as
good as Norm. I, too, was inspired by Norm. He makes it all look very
easy...if only we had all those tools!
C
--
************************************
Chris Merrill
[email protected]
(remove the ZZZ to contact me)
************************************
"Roy Neudecker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] (BJS) writes:
>
<SNIP>> These guys are great guys here. They know a lot about woodworking.
But, take it
> with a grain of salt. Some are jealous, some are talking out their ass and
some
> are Masters. But. unless you can separate who is what beware. In any case
> everybody has a different style in the way they work. Try to take
something
> from everybody. Eliminate the garbage and keep the good.
>
Damn, I hate it when someone actually make sense through logical thinking.
How un-wreck-like.
Glen
<<That's true. Located in Burlington, Vermont. Same place that the
Victory Gardenshow takes place.>>
Burlington, VT is where you send for the New Yankee Workshop tapes. The
shop itself is in the greater Boston area (Lexington, MA, I believe). It
was also the site of the Victory Garden when Morash was producer of that
show. But he hasn't been for the past two years and the Victory Garden now
has all new personnel and a different location.
Lee
--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"
John Grossbohlin wrote:
> Reminds me of the "table" my five year old has been making for the
> past few months... in 10 minute or so sessions. He's pounded a
> gazillion 4D finish and common nails into it, screwed in a bunch of
> drywall screws, gobs of glue,
Doesn't sound so different from my technique... <g>
-- Mark
"Chris Merrill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Brian Henderson wrote:
> > Um... and Norm isn't? The New Yankee Workshop, brought to you by
> > every tool Porter Cable could stuff into the shop? At least when you
> > look at someone like David Marks, it's his shop, they're his tools,
> > it's his wood and he isn't kissing any advertiser's ass.
>
> Given that he covers up the labels on the tools...I would certainly
> not say he is kissing the advertisers' asses.
>
It ain't Norm's shop. It's Russell Morash's (the producer's) shop.
I saw a picture of Norms digs once, and it's nowhere near as elaborate.
Much of what you see on the show is a persona created by Morash & Co.
Henry Bibb
Hear hear Roy!! Very well said. I think that about covers it.
Jim
"Roy Neudecker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] (BJS) writes:
>
> >[Snip]
> >
> >What, specifically, is so bad about Norm? If he has been my main
> >source of learning and inspiration, will I be damned to a future of
> >poor quality projects?
> >
> >I see that a lot of the fighting comes from the "purist" hand toolers
> >vs. the Norm power toolers. Some people seem to be offended just by
> >the fact that he uses power tools. It is interesting to note that in
> >Norm's first book, he mentions how he grew up using hand tools, and
> >mentions the skills that his dad taught him. He says NYW is a
> >departure for him from those teachings, and a chance to use power
> >tools to build traditional furniture.
> >
> >So, two questions from a ww newbie:
> >
> >How am I being harmed in my quest to make nice projects if I follow
> >Norm's techniques? What are specific things he does that are "bad" and
> >what are the "better" ways of doing them?
> >
>
> Brian,
>
> The NYW has been an inspiration to many people. So don't let the negative
> influence get to you. Those do-it-yourself show are designed to do just
that.
> Get people thinking in a direction to start doing it yourself. I think
Norm is
> a great example of that. That he deserves the title Master Craftsman (or
> whatever that title he has) or not I cannot say. I think that would depend
if
> he could sell enough of his work or not. Because lets face it being a
Master at
> anything means nothing if nobody likes it enough to buy it.
>
> Take time to learn the skills of Norm. But don't stop there. Because there
are
> a lot of great woodworkers out there. Some who are safety minded some who
are
> not. Some who use brads to hold it together while the glue dries some who
use
> only clamps. Use what works for you. If it doesn't look good to you don't
use
> it. If it ever gets down to selling your stuff then you will have to do
what
> the customer will buy.
>
> You know safety is important. And, we here cannot stress enough about it.
But,
> I remember Sam Maloof saying something about the danger of way he uses the
> bandsaw to freehand his work. I am not telling you to go out and put
yourself
> into a dangerous situation by this comment. But, Sam Maloof I would
consider a
> Master Craftsman. He does stuff that is not safe. Does that make him any
less a
> Master? Hell, no.
>
> These guys are great guys here. They know a lot about woodworking. But,
take it
> with a grain of salt. Some are jealous, some are talking out their ass and
some
> are Masters. But. unless you can separate who is what beware. In any case
> everybody has a different style in the way they work. Try to take
something
> from everybody. Eliminate the garbage and keep the good.
>
> Roy
> Roy
On 09 Dec 2003, Coach Mike spake unto rec.woodworking:
> OK, I'll bite. Why is Bob evil?
>
>> So much for rambling. JOAT said it: "Norm is good, Roy is good, Bob is
>> evil."
Bob is willing to shill any product for any advertiser willing to pay
his fee. His personal integrity in this regard places him well below used
car salesmen and real estate agents; but, to his credit, somewhat higher
than personal injury lawyers.
That doesn't make him evil, actually. Just beneath contempt.
I wonder Norm reads any of this?
"Conan the Librarian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > 99.8% of the Norm bashing is done by people with more time in front of
the
> > TV then in the shop. It's done so they can feel like they are playing
with
> > the big boys and it is safe. It is hardly likely that they will be faced
> > with confronting Norm on the various woodworking issues so, regardless
of
> > how inane the post, they get to spout off sounding like they know what
they
> > are talking about and need not be bothered with facts.
>
> Sure, a lot of Nahm-bashing is done by arm-chair woodworkers.
> Heck, this is Usenet, so most of what goes on here is done by
> arm-chair [insert name of hobby here]. :-} (To say nothing of the
> trolls.)
>
> But there are legit gripes about Nahm. I know that many have
> credited him with bringing ww'ing to the masses, and I can't argue
> that. I know any number of folks here on the wreck who credit him for
> their interest. But for every one of those, it's possible that you
> could find someone who was totally put off by the appearance that it
> is necessary to own all sorts of power tools in order to make
> anything. I know I used to watch Nahm before I ever raised a plane in
> anger :-), and I sincerely thought it was way beyond my
> budget/abilities.
>
> Other personal gripes I have are his finishing techniques (poly
> isn't really the best finish for everything), his bradnailer fixation,
> his apparent lack of knowledge about wood-movement issues (though I
> hear he's getting better about that), and his penchant for smearing
> insane amounts of galoo all over the place.
>
> We may disagree on some of the above, but they are certainly worth
> discussing when they are being presented on teevee on a regular basis
> by someone who is looked to as an authority on woodworking matters.
>
> As for the guy himself ... I like Nahm. He seems like a regular
> guy who'd be fun to share a couple beers with.
>
>
> Chuck Vance
> Just say (tmPL) But first, a few words about shop safety ...
Don't know how this one slipped past my Norm/NYWS filters (note, the filter
is to having to receive endless and completely useless posts on the subject,
not because I have anything against Norm) but it did so.................
99.8% of the Norm bashing is done by people with more time in front of the
TV then in the shop. It's done so they can feel like they are playing with
the big boys and it is safe. It is hardly likely that they will be faced
with confronting Norm on the various woodworking issues so, regardless of
how inane the post, they get to spout off sounding like they know what they
are talking about and need not be bothered with facts.
Now to recheck those filters.
--
Mike G.
[email protected]
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"BJS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> As a child, I always enjoyed tooling around in our garage. I built a
> few 2x4 and plywood tables and other projects. When I left home around
> age 20, I was off in apartments for a number of years. Over the last
> couple of years I have watched NYW, Norm, and TOH on PBS. It rekindled
> my interest in woodworking, and I vowed to create a shop and build
> projects once I had the space.
>
> Well, I have a decent shop now. A TS, a jointer, a compound miter saw,
> and some hand power tools.
>
> Norm is the guy who got me interested in woodworking. He has inspired
> me to take up this great hobby. Maybe it is my ignorance, but I have
> always been impressed by what I see him produce. I am not so stupid as
> to not realize that he makes mistakes, and for the sake of TV time,
> the mistakes aren't shown. I realize that it would not be as easy as
> Norm made it look.
>
> I've been lurking here on this NG on and off. I've come for tool
> reveiws, solutions to problems, etc. And I noticed here and there a
> war that has gone on for a very long time on this NG - to Norm or not
> to Norm.
>
> Why?
>
> What, specifically, is so bad about Norm? If he has been my main
> source of learning and inspiration, will I be damned to a future of
> poor quality projects?
>
> I see that a lot of the fighting comes from the "purist" hand toolers
> vs. the Norm power toolers. Some people seem to be offended just by
> the fact that he uses power tools. It is interesting to note that in
> Norm's first book, he mentions how he grew up using hand tools, and
> mentions the skills that his dad taught him. He says NYW is a
> departure for him from those teachings, and a chance to use power
> tools to build traditional furniture.
>
> So, two questions from a ww newbie:
>
> How am I being harmed in my quest to make nice projects if I follow
> Norm's techniques? What are specific things he does that are "bad" and
> what are the "better" ways of doing them?
>
> Thanks for your comments.
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
As does any company that underwrites any show on PBS. Can't remember the
last time I saw Norm pitching for PC on DIY, or HGTV. If I see one more
poorly designed, chinese made, attempt at a tool being pushed by Bob Villa
with a Craftsman logo.............well I don't know what I would
do.........but it can't be nice.
PBS exists through at least four money channels, organized charities and
philanthropic organizations, government grants and subsidies, private
donations and memberships, and lastly corporate underwriting on specific
shows that allows the corporate entities to mention there name twice, once
at the start of the show and once at the end.
Let me ask you this, are you a member of your local PBS station? TV or
Radio? And if not, why not.
What has Sesame Street done to you, are you afraid of Mr. Rogers? Be careful
or Marian Morash will come over and cook one of her horrendous dishes for
you, and you will find Roger Swain taking up residence in your home.
All this with tongue planted firmly in cheek!!!
Dave
"Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 02:37:02 GMT, Chris Merrill
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Brian Henderson wrote:
> >> Um... and Norm isn't? The New Yankee Workshop, brought to you by
> >> every tool Porter Cable could stuff into the shop? At least when you
> >> look at someone like David Marks, it's his shop, they're his tools,
> >> it's his wood and he isn't kissing any advertiser's ass.
>
> >Given that he covers up the labels on the tools...I would certainly
> >not say he is kissing the advertisers' asses.
>
> It isn't like you can't tell what every tool in the shop is, he only
> covers the labels because PBS requires it. And Porter Cable does an
> ad-shot before and after the show.
On 9 Dec 2003 00:16:47 -0800, [email protected] (BJS) wrote:
>What, specifically, is so bad about Norm? If he has been my main
>source of learning and inspiration, will I be damned to a future of
>poor quality projects?
There's nothing particularly bad about Norm, but let's face it, Norm
is a wood-basher, not a wood-worker. He goes for fast construction
and Tim Allen-esque "MORE POWER!". He shoots brads like they're going
out of style. If the power went out, he wouldn't know what to do with
himself.
That's not to say I don't like Norm, but he appeals to the weekend
woodworker who is making a few things around the house, not to the
craftsman who wants to make fine furniture or something that's really
going to last a lifetime and beyond.
On 9 Dec 2003 00:16:47 -0800, [email protected] (BJS) wrote:
And once more they will follow El Cid into battle, even though he is
already dead.
Regards, Tom
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker
Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 02:37:02 GMT, Chris Merrill
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Brian Henderson wrote:
>> Um... and Norm isn't? The New Yankee Workshop, brought to you by
>> every tool Porter Cable could stuff into the shop? At least when you
>> look at someone like David Marks, it's his shop, they're his tools,
>> it's his wood and he isn't kissing any advertiser's ass.
>Given that he covers up the labels on the tools...I would certainly
>not say he is kissing the advertisers' asses.
It isn't like you can't tell what every tool in the shop is, he only
covers the labels because PBS requires it. And Porter Cable does an
ad-shot before and after the show.
Well JOAT and Roy and others have said it well. I have nothing more to
add so I will add it. Most of us have some power tools and some hand
tools. If power tools predominate you are a Normite. If hand tools,
you are a Neanderthal (or simply Neander). The patron saints of these
groups are Norm Abram and Roy Underhill.
[shameless shill mode on]Go to www.blackbirdie.com and move down through
the pages. Page 1, panels 1 and 2 are caricatures of my granddaughters.
Go to page 5 for one of Norm and Roy. Good stuff. Wish I had the
talent that my daughter does. [shill mode off].
As long as you have fun with it, maybe make a buck or two, and keep
those twelve talented fingers fingers intact, go for it.
mahalo,
jo4hn
BJS wrote:
> As a child, I always enjoyed tooling around in our garage. I built a
[snip]
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:22:33 GMT, Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>So Brian, would YOU care to pay for the production of NYW? You watch
>it; perhaps you should help pay for it. Then they can pull all those
>shots of PC tools you despise so much.
Actually, I don't watch it anymore (I don't get PBS and they pulled it
off DIY/HGTV). So long as they air on PBS, they cannot do any direct
advertising, it's against the PBS regulations.
I think Norm is a cool guy and his easy going personality is a pleasure
to absorb during his shows. Quite a difference between him and most of
the other celebrity woodworkers.
As far as what seems to elicit the most disapproval, I'd venture to say
it's his penchant for overusing his brad nailer. I'm not fond of nail
holes or filling them.
Most of the time I'm too busy to catch his shows, but when I do, I feel
bad for having missed so many of them. I admire the guy.
dave
BJS wrote:
> As a child, I always enjoyed tooling around in our garage. I built a
> few 2x4 and plywood tables and other projects. When I left home around
> age 20, I was off in apartments for a number of years. Over the last
> couple of years I have watched NYW, Norm, and TOH on PBS. It rekindled
> my interest in woodworking, and I vowed to create a shop and build
> projects once I had the space.
>
> Well, I have a decent shop now. A TS, a jointer, a compound miter saw,
> and some hand power tools.
>
> Norm is the guy who got me interested in woodworking. He has inspired
> me to take up this great hobby. Maybe it is my ignorance, but I have
> always been impressed by what I see him produce. I am not so stupid as
> to not realize that he makes mistakes, and for the sake of TV time,
> the mistakes aren't shown. I realize that it would not be as easy as
> Norm made it look.
>
> I've been lurking here on this NG on and off. I've come for tool
> reveiws, solutions to problems, etc. And I noticed here and there a
> war that has gone on for a very long time on this NG - to Norm or not
> to Norm.
>
> Why?
>
> What, specifically, is so bad about Norm? If he has been my main
> source of learning and inspiration, will I be damned to a future of
> poor quality projects?
>
> I see that a lot of the fighting comes from the "purist" hand toolers
> vs. the Norm power toolers. Some people seem to be offended just by
> the fact that he uses power tools. It is interesting to note that in
> Norm's first book, he mentions how he grew up using hand tools, and
> mentions the skills that his dad taught him. He says NYW is a
> departure for him from those teachings, and a chance to use power
> tools to build traditional furniture.
>
> So, two questions from a ww newbie:
>
> How am I being harmed in my quest to make nice projects if I follow
> Norm's techniques? What are specific things he does that are "bad" and
> what are the "better" ways of doing them?
>
> Thanks for your comments.
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
So, Andy just how many J.Kellogg 5/8" cove planes do you keep handy??
dave
Andy Dingley wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:26:18 GMT, Nova <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>The same thing that happens if you have only hand tools and the hand tool is
>>broken.
>
>
> How many hand tool devotees do you know who only have one of anything?
Brian Henderson wrote:
> Um... and Norm isn't? The New Yankee Workshop, brought to you by
> every tool Porter Cable could stuff into the shop? At least when you
> look at someone like David Marks, it's his shop, they're his tools,
> it's his wood and he isn't kissing any advertiser's ass.
Given that he covers up the labels on the tools...I would certainly
not say he is kissing the advertisers' asses.
--
************************************
Chris Merrill
[email protected]
(remove the ZZZ to contact me)
************************************
"jo4hn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> [shameless shill mode on]Go to www.blackbirdie.com and move down through
> the pages. Page 1, panels 1 and 2 are caricatures of my granddaughters.
She's pretty good!
Have you ever checked out production costs?
"Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 19:57:12 -0700, "Dennis M. O'Connor"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >With a nailgun, you can keep working, you don't
> >need to wait for the glue to set. Not so with clamps,
> >since they often clamp right where the next piece goes.
> >That's a good reason for Norm to use a nailgun, and
> >a good reason for weakend furniture makers too.
>
> This is TV. You can stop the camera and wait for the glue to set.
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:16:38 GMT, "David Babcock"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>What has Sesame Street done to you, are you afraid of Mr. Rogers?
Terrified.
- -
DL
http://www.geocities.com/dicklong14_ca/fanclub.htm
>> Evidently your buddy Cedeño is a bastard.
>>
>
>First of all, Cedeño is not my buddy.
::::::::::::::::
"When you make fun of someone washing his truck, that's sad."
- Jeff Kent
::::::::::::::::
Halter Sucks!
" It isn't like you can't tell what every tool in the shop is"
Wanna bet?
http://www.woodbutcher.net/norm.htm
I saw this on an earlier post.
"Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 02:37:02 GMT, Chris Merrill
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Brian Henderson wrote:
> >> Um... and Norm isn't? The New Yankee Workshop, brought to you by
> >> every tool Porter Cable could stuff into the shop? At least when you
> >> look at someone like David Marks, it's his shop, they're his tools,
> >> it's his wood and he isn't kissing any advertiser's ass.
>
> >Given that he covers up the labels on the tools...I would certainly
> >not say he is kissing the advertisers' asses.
>
> It isn't like you can't tell what every tool in the shop is, he only
> covers the labels because PBS requires it. And Porter Cable does an
> ad-shot before and after the show.
On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:58:51 -0600, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
wrote:
>>OK, I'll bite. Why is Bob evil?
>
>I suppose maybe you should ask him that question.
>
>Personally I seem him as more as a big prick in itty-bitty
>pants. Evil would be if he actually had some influence.
>He's fairly benign but hard to stomach.
Y'know, every time I see him I think:
This guy must have been beaten horribly as a child.
He's mellowed some in the last few years, but he was downright painful
to watch in the early nineties.
M
On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 20:24:54 -0500, Silvan
<[email protected]> brought forth from the murky depths:
>Unisaw A100 wrote:
>
>> pants. Evil would be if he actually had some influence.
>> He's fairly benign but hard to stomach.
>
>What, you mean you don't turn to Bob for help when you strip the nuts on
>your bicycle with ordinary pliers?
That was shown on TV commercials and the channel locks were
used backwards. You could see metal being chewed off and the
resultant gnarled nut. Absolutely amazing. I laughed myself
into tears over that one the first time Searz showed it. It
was obviously made by an _entire_cast_and_crew_ who had never
used a single hand tool in their lives. (The cameraman should
have known but his laughter didn't shake the camera so he may
not have had a clue, either. Ditto the grips. No shaking
lights.)
-------------------------------------------------------
"i" before "e", except after "c", what a weird society.
----
http://diversify.com Dynamic Website Applications
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:26:18 GMT, Nova <[email protected]>
wrote:
>The same thing that happens if you have only hand tools and the hand tool is
>broken.
How many hand tool devotees do you know who only have one of anything?
On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:14:05 GMT, Scott Cramer
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Bob is willing to shill any product for any advertiser willing to pay
>his fee. His personal integrity in this regard places him well below used
>car salesmen and real estate agents; but, to his credit, somewhat higher
>than personal injury lawyers.
Um... and Norm isn't? The New Yankee Workshop, brought to you by
every tool Porter Cable could stuff into the shop? At least when you
look at someone like David Marks, it's his shop, they're his tools,
it's his wood and he isn't kissing any advertiser's ass.
On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 19:57:12 -0700, "Dennis M. O'Connor"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>With a nailgun, you can keep working, you don't
>need to wait for the glue to set. Not so with clamps,
>since they often clamp right where the next piece goes.
>That's a good reason for Norm to use a nailgun, and
>a good reason for weakend furniture makers too.
This is TV. You can stop the camera and wait for the glue to set.
Dave I think your just jealous that he has ALL the cool tools ! I
want his wide belt sander !
"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I think Norm is a cool guy and his easy going personality is a pleasure
> to absorb during his shows. Quite a difference between him and most of
> the other celebrity woodworkers.
>
> As far as what seems to elicit the most disapproval, I'd venture to say
> it's his penchant for overusing his brad nailer. I'm not fond of nail
> holes or filling them.
>
> Most of the time I'm too busy to catch his shows, but when I do, I feel
> bad for having missed so many of them. I admire the guy.
>
> dave
>
> BJS wrote:
>
> > As a child, I always enjoyed tooling around in our garage. I built a
> > few 2x4 and plywood tables and other projects. When I left home around
> > age 20, I was off in apartments for a number of years. Over the last
> > couple of years I have watched NYW, Norm, and TOH on PBS. It rekindled
> > my interest in woodworking, and I vowed to create a shop and build
> > projects once I had the space.
> >
> > Well, I have a decent shop now. A TS, a jointer, a compound miter saw,
> > and some hand power tools.
> >
> > Norm is the guy who got me interested in woodworking. He has inspired
> > me to take up this great hobby. Maybe it is my ignorance, but I have
> > always been impressed by what I see him produce. I am not so stupid as
> > to not realize that he makes mistakes, and for the sake of TV time,
> > the mistakes aren't shown. I realize that it would not be as easy as
> > Norm made it look.
> >
> > I've been lurking here on this NG on and off. I've come for tool
> > reveiws, solutions to problems, etc. And I noticed here and there a
> > war that has gone on for a very long time on this NG - to Norm or not
> > to Norm.
> >
> > Why?
> >
> > What, specifically, is so bad about Norm? If he has been my main
> > source of learning and inspiration, will I be damned to a future of
> > poor quality projects?
> >
> > I see that a lot of the fighting comes from the "purist" hand toolers
> > vs. the Norm power toolers. Some people seem to be offended just by
> > the fact that he uses power tools. It is interesting to note that in
> > Norm's first book, he mentions how he grew up using hand tools, and
> > mentions the skills that his dad taught him. He says NYW is a
> > departure for him from those teachings, and a chance to use power
> > tools to build traditional furniture.
> >
> > So, two questions from a ww newbie:
> >
> > How am I being harmed in my quest to make nice projects if I follow
> > Norm's techniques? What are specific things he does that are "bad" and
> > what are the "better" ways of doing them?
> >
> > Thanks for your comments.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Brian
>
On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 19:57:12 -0700, Dennis M. O'Connor
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> OTOH, there is a certain satisfaction making furniture
> that has no metal in it. Side note: In the 70's GE had
> an entire building made without any steel or iron in it,
> to do experiments with the big superconducting magnets
> they use in NMR imaging (now called MRI) machines.
> --
> Dennis M. O'Connor [email protected]
>
I've worked in RF Emissions Complience testing. An all-weather RF
emissions site--that "FCC Class B Computing Device" sticker on the back
of your computer--will have a metal ground plane with nothing metal
above the plane, excluding the EUT and the antenna.
Interesting is how many nylon bolts you need to replace the 16d nails of
conventional framing. Thousands of holes to be drilled. I'm guessing
that it was prefabbed offsite, then the siding and roof were glued on.
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 23:48:34 -0700, "Dennis M. O'Connor"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I didn't realize weekend furniture makers were on TV.
>Contrary to what the Dish Network PVR ads might lead
>you to believe, you can't skip-ahead or rewind in real life.
There aren't any deadlines either.
>Other people have commented on how uneconomic it is
>to have a TV crew just "wait for the glue to set".
And I pointed out that David Marks does it all the time.
So Brian, would YOU care to pay for the production of NYW? You watch
it; perhaps you should help pay for it. Then they can pull all those
shots of PC tools you despise so much.
dave
Brian Henderson wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:14:05 GMT, Scott Cramer
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>> Bob is willing to shill any product for any advertiser willing to pay
>>his fee. His personal integrity in this regard places him well below used
>>car salesmen and real estate agents; but, to his credit, somewhat higher
>>than personal injury lawyers.
>
>
> Um... and Norm isn't? The New Yankee Workshop, brought to you by
> every tool Porter Cable could stuff into the shop? At least when you
> look at someone like David Marks, it's his shop, they're his tools,
> it's his wood and he isn't kissing any advertiser's ass.
On 9 Dec 2003 00:16:47 -0800, [email protected] (BJS) wrote:
>What, specifically, is so bad about Norm?
We (generally) have a very high regard for Norm.
So we're especially saddened to see him _almost_ make something really
good, but foul it up at the last minute - usually by some tar-pit of a
finish from a tin. We know the guy could do better !
I understand why corners get cut for a TV program. But I'd still love
to see a bit more where he made something quick and simple, but
demonstrated some real finishing on it.
--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
>> > How am I being harmed in my quest to make nice projects if I follow
>> > Norm's techniques? What are specific things he does that are "bad" and
>> > what are the "better" ways of doing them?
Not so much bad as out of touch with the common man, maybe.
I used to watch Norm and Roy after Saturday morning cartoons, back in the
mid to late '80s. Roy made beautiful, complicated stuff with practically
nothing, and Norm had a specialized doodad to mechanize almost everything.
From what I hear, Norm has a lot more specialized doodads now than he did
back then.
I don't watch either of them, or any other TV for that matter, but I think
I'd still prefer Roy's show to Norm's. I'm *not* a Neander. I'm a
Cro-Magnon maybe. I do some Neander stuff, and some Normish stuff. I have
no desire to buy a planer and jointer, and no desire to buy a whole
collection of good hand saws or a brace and bit.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:26:33 GMT, [email protected] (Charles Krug)
wrote:
>Interesting is how many nylon bolts you need to replace the 16d nails of
>conventional framing.
Round these parts, "conventional" framing uses oak treenails and no
iron at all, same as it has for centuries.
--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 03:45:56 GMT, "Henry Bibb" <[email protected]>
>It ain't Norm's shop. It's Russell Morash's (the producer's) shop.
>I saw a picture of Norms digs once, and it's nowhere near as elaborate.
>Much of what you see on the show is a persona created by Morash & Co.
>
>Henry Bibb
>
That's true. Located in Burlington, Vermont. Same place that the
Victory Gardenshow takes place.
Stll...I sure would love to have that shop! :o)
Terry
"BJS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > -snip-
> >
> > There was a thread running through the entire
> > presentation in that he is always moving forward... developing new
skills
> > and a greater understanding of what makes a fine piece of furniture.
> >
> > -snip-
> >
> > John
>
> Thanks, John, for your response, and to those from everyone else.
>
> I saw your discussion of your meeting with Norm at OSV in a previous
> thread. Sounds like it was an enjoyable experience.
>
...
>
> Also, it is about experience as well. The first project I built was a
> Norm bookshelf. And I used by brad nailer like crazy. Well, I hadn't
> though about the fact that I would have to fill all those holes! Now,
> I know. In the future, I will be more likely to rely less on nails and
> more on other techniques.
Reminds me of the "table" my five year old has been making for the past few
months... in 10 minute or so sessions. He's pounded a gazillion 4D finish
and common nails into it, screwed in a bunch of drywall screws, gobs of
glue, and had me drill holes on each centering-X he drew on it. As my father
puts it "he's developing skills."
I have him work on structured projects too. The last thing we made was step
stools for the bathroom to replace the plastic store bought ones. His glue
spreading and nailing under controlled conditions was quite good. I had him
use a batter board (for lack of a better term) so that there were no stray
hammer dents in the stool. After filling the nail holes I showed him how to
properly hand sand with the grain. He primed the piece with a brush and gave
it a light sanding to smooth the primer. I sprayed on his favorite color...
orange.
The "table" will have about a 1/2 ton of iron in it by the time he's done
but he really has learned from doing it. Especially the notion of centering
Xs. ;-)
John