On Thursday, December 17, 2015 at 1:44:20 PM UTC-8, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Dec 2015 13:56:28 -0800 (PST)
> whit3rd <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > If the bugle-head makes contact, it'll be first at the small 'bugle'
> > flare, or maybe at the rim alone... Because it's not the right SHAPE to contact the
> > full cut face of the countersunk hole.
> but i have to research what bugle head means because i am a bit confused on
> that still
The 'bugle head' is intended to crush the paper surface and imbed slightly
when driven in sheetrock/drywall/gypsum board materials, so the
surface can be spackled flat. Some wood screws for trim are 'small head' types,
and apparently are intended to wedge into a predrilled hole (often
the tip of the screw is a drill) in wood or fake-wood trim boards..
Neither the 'bugle head' nor the 'trim head/ small head"' are well-specified as to shape,
so I see no easy way to countersink for those. They hold well in wood,
and are sold as wood screws, but one ought not to use them for cabinetry
(nor, for that matter, for mounting door hinges).
On Tue, 15 Dec 2015 02:13:18 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote in news:n4nev6$3bv$3
>@dont-email.me:
>
>>
>> i did not know these existed but it is a good idea
>>
>> http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=73226&cat=1,44047&ap=2
>>
>> price seems reasonable too
>
>It's hard to tell from the picture on the webpage,
>but those don't appear to have tapered drills. If
>they don't, then they're essentially useless.
>
>If you really want a set of drill/countersink bits,
>get a set of Fullers (no quickchange there, but at
>least they'll work the way they're susposed to).
>
With today's screws, why do you need tapered bits? They're available
if you can find screws to go with them, though.
On Monday, December 14, 2015 at 2:16:32 PM UTC-8, Electric Comet wrote:
> i did not know these existed but it is a good idea
>
> http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=73226&cat=1,44047&ap=2
>
> price seems reasonable too
Yep, I've got an Hitachi version of that, from maybe a decade back. It gets
lots of use.
I've got a microset countersink tool that came from an old Boeing Surplus bin,
that's extremely handy, too. Countersinking really greatly helps with traditional
woodscrews, but most available screws are odd bugle-head shapes now. :-(
-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> On 12/14/15 4:14 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>>
>> i did not know these existed but it is a good idea
>>
>
> Punctuation?
>
>
It's a good thing he doesn't come from a Commodore 64 background, where
they eliminated spaces to save memory!
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
On 12/14/2015 4:14 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>
> i did not know these existed but it is a good idea
>
> http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=73226&cat=1,44047&ap=2
>
> price seems reasonable too
>
This is more expensive but seems more useful.
http://www.rockler.com/rockler-insty-drive-18-piece-self-centering-countersink-set?sid=V2950&utm_source=bronto&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Image+-+Rockler+18-Pc.+Self-Centering+%26+Countersink+Bit+Set&utm_content=Holiday+Shipping+Deadline+Is+Coming+-+Get+Your+Gift+Orders+In!&utm_campaign=121615_b_r_HolidayShipping_Global_V2950
On 12/14/2015 8:28 PM, krw wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Dec 2015 02:13:18 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote in news:n4nev6$3bv$3
>> @dont-email.me:
>>
>>>
>>> i did not know these existed but it is a good idea
>>>
>>> http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=73226&cat=1,44047&ap=2
>>>
>>> price seems reasonable too
>>
>> It's hard to tell from the picture on the webpage,
>> but those don't appear to have tapered drills. If
>> they don't, then they're essentially useless.
>>
>> If you really want a set of drill/countersink bits,
>> get a set of Fullers (no quickchange there, but at
>> least they'll work the way they're susposed to).
>>
> With today's screws, why do you need tapered bits? They're available
> if you can find screws to go with them, though.
>
You really do not need tapered drills for today's screws BUT !!!
Tapered drill bits compared to standard twist drill bits, at least for
me, are much easier to start precisely where I want and I don't have any
issue with bit wander at the beginning of the drilling. The pointed end
tends to stay where you put it.
On 12/14/2015 5:14 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>
> i did not know these existed but it is a good idea
>
> http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=73226&cat=1,44047&ap=2
>
> price seems reasonable too
>
>
>
I have a large set of those. They were made for Craftsman. I like them,
but I would prefer to just have 2 drills , one with a drill/countersink,
the other with a screw bit.
But they are nice.
--
Jeff
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> On Thursday, December 17, 2015 at 1:44:20 PM UTC-8, Electric Comet wrote:
> > On Tue, 15 Dec 2015 13:56:28 -0800 (PST)
> > whit3rd <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > If the bugle-head makes contact, it'll be first at the small 'bugle'
> > > flare, or maybe at the rim alone... Because it's not the right SHAPE to contact the
> > > full cut face of the countersunk hole.
>
> > but i have to research what bugle head means because i am a bit confused on
> > that still
>
> The 'bugle head' is intended to crush the paper surface and imbed slightly
> when driven in sheetrock/drywall/gypsum board materials, so the
> surface can be spackled flat. Some wood screws for trim are 'small head' types,
> and apparently are intended to wedge into a predrilled hole (often
> the tip of the screw is a drill) in wood or fake-wood trim boards..
>
> Neither the 'bugle head' nor the 'trim head/ small head"' are well-specified as to shape,
> so I see no easy way to countersink for those. They hold well in wood,
> and are sold as wood screws, but one ought not to use them for cabinetry
> (nor, for that matter, for mounting door hinges).
In at least one case ("Cortex") a "trim head" screw comes with a bit
having a marker band so that when the marker contacts the surface it is
sunk to the right depth in "fake-wood" trim boards and comes with a plug
of the same material as the board that can be set almost invisibly with
a single hammer blow (not with two mind you--if you don't get it all the
way down with the first one it's buggered enough that it won't ever seat
right).
On 12/15/2015 12:01 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Dec 2015 19:31:40 -0500
> woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I have a large set of those. They were made for Craftsman. I like
>> them, but I would prefer to just have 2 drills , one with a
>> drill/countersink, the other with a screw bit.
>
> now i will have to check the craftsman price
>
> i like it because it is one tool and no need to go looking for the other when
> i need it and it has the quick change
>
>
>
I don't see the full kit that I have anymore. I bought it for $15 at a
garage sale. Looked untouched.
I'll post a pic soon.
--
Jeff
Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote in news:n4nev6$3bv$3
@dont-email.me:
>
> i did not know these existed but it is a good idea
>
> http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=73226&cat=1,44047&ap=2
>
> price seems reasonable too
It's hard to tell from the picture on the webpage,
but those don't appear to have tapered drills. If
they don't, then they're essentially useless.
If you really want a set of drill/countersink bits,
get a set of Fullers (no quickchange there, but at
least they'll work the way they're susposed to).
John
-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> I'm sure I won't be the first to point out that tapered drill bits are
> for tapered screws.
Well that's just not so. The idea behind a tapered drill
like the Fullers is to drill a pilot hole (the tapered
part) followed by a clearance hole. And I don't care
what sort of screw you use, if you're doing quality work
you only want the threads engaged in the lower of the
parts you're joining.
This Lee Valley set doesn't appear to drill a clearance
hole in the upper part - and thus it's only useful for
quick and dirty work, not for anything intended to be
permanent.
John
On Tuesday, December 15, 2015 at 9:20:48 AM UTC-8, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Dec 2015 05:31:06 -0500
> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Nary a single one has a bugle head. That's because I used up all my
> > drywall screws the last time I messed with drywall.
>
> i did not notice my drywall screws had a bugle head
>... i have some cabinet screws that definitely have a bugle head
That's where the problem lies. If you have a machine screw with flat-head,
the inch-sizes take an 82 degree conical countersink (and metric
sizes take 90 degree conical countersink). In wood screws of flat-head
and oval-head types, it's (presumably) always 82 degrees.
So, in assembling a furniture item, if you have the proper countersink
for the screw head, that head bottoms against the work all at once,
and the clever craftsperson on the other end of the screwdriver
can tension it properly.
If the bugle-head makes contact, it'll be first at the small 'bugle' flare, or maybe
at the rim alone, but never on the full face of the countersunk hole. Because
it's not the right SHAPE to contact the full cut face of the countersunk hole.
The only way to tighten the screw is to crush some wood at the head.
That's not optimal.
On 12/16/2015 8:37 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 12/14/2015 4:14 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>>
>> i did not know these existed but it is a good idea
>>
>> http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=73226&cat=1,44047&ap=2
>>
>> price seems reasonable too
>>
>
>
> This is more expensive but seems more useful.
>
> http://www.rockler.com/rockler-insty-drive-18-piece-self-centering-countersink-set?sid=V2950&utm_source=bronto&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Image+-+Rockler+18-Pc.+Self-Centering+%26+Countersink+Bit+Set&utm_content=Holiday+Shipping+Deadline+Is+Coming+-+Get+Your+Gift+Orders+In!&utm_campaign=121615_b_r_HolidayShipping_Global_V2950
I have a similar package from Rockler for self centered drilling pilot
holes for cabinet hinges and drawer slide screws. Hard to beat.
Both Makita and DeWalt make the QuikChange driver/countersink drill bit
cheaper than LV's ... had them both for years and they're still good to
go. The Makita's are a little easier to use, and not as bulky.
Love my Fuller stuff best of all.
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On 12/15/2015 11:52 AM, John McCoy wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> I'm sure I won't be the first to point out that tapered drill bits are
>> for tapered screws.
>
> Well that's just not so. The idea behind a tapered drill
> like the Fullers is to drill a pilot hole (the tapered
> part) followed by a clearance hole. And I don't care
> what sort of screw you use, if you're doing quality work
> you only want the threads engaged in the lower of the
> parts you're joining.
>
> This Lee Valley set doesn't appear to drill a clearance
> hole in the upper part - and thus it's only useful for
> quick and dirty work, not for anything intended to be
> permanent.
>
> John
>
FWIW these are the ones I use and they are significantly less expensive
than the Fuller. They seem to still drill as well as when they were new
several years ago.
http://www.amazon.com/Insty-82603-Quick-Change-Countersink/dp/B004TS0A90/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1450215143&sr=8-10&keywords=taper+drills
On 12/15/2015 3:36 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 12/15/2015 11:52 AM, John McCoy wrote:
>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> I'm sure I won't be the first to point out that tapered drill bits are
>>> for tapered screws.
>>
>> Well that's just not so. The idea behind a tapered drill
>> like the Fullers is to drill a pilot hole (the tapered
>> part) followed by a clearance hole. And I don't care
>> what sort of screw you use, if you're doing quality work
>> you only want the threads engaged in the lower of the
>> parts you're joining.
>>
>> This Lee Valley set doesn't appear to drill a clearance
>> hole in the upper part - and thus it's only useful for
>> quick and dirty work, not for anything intended to be
>> permanent.
>>
>> John
>>
>
> FWIW these are the ones I use and they are significantly less expensive
> than the Fuller. They seem to still drill as well as when they were new
> several years ago.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Insty-82603-Quick-Change-Countersink/dp/B004TS0A90/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1450215143&sr=8-10&keywords=taper+drills
>
Woops!!! Sorry, I use the Snappy brand, not the Insty brand. Still
inexpensive by comparison.
On 12/14/15 4:14 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>
> i did not know these existed but it is a good idea
>
Punctuation?
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 12/14/15 6:31 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 12/14/2015 5:14 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>>
>> i did not know these existed but it is a good idea
>>
>> http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=73226&cat=1,44047&ap=2
>>
>> price seems reasonable too
>>
>>
>>
> I have a large set of those. They were made for Craftsman. I like them,
> but I would prefer to just have 2 drills , one with a drill/countersink,
> the other with a screw bit.
>
> But they are nice.
>
I have a couple sets of those and will still use them for hardwood.
Honestly, I haven't picked them up since I started using screws with
self-drilling tips and countersinking heads.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 12/14/15 8:13 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote in news:n4nev6$3bv$3
> @dont-email.me:
>
>>
>> i did not know these existed but it is a good idea
>>
>> http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=73226&cat=1,44047&ap=2
>>
>> price seems reasonable too
>
> It's hard to tell from the picture on the webpage,
> but those don't appear to have tapered drills. If
> they don't, then they're essentially useless.
>
> If you really want a set of drill/countersink bits,
> get a set of Fullers (no quickchange there, but at
> least they'll work the way they're susposed to).
>
> John
>
I'm sure I won't be the first to point out that tapered drill bits are
for tapered screws.
I don't think you can even find a tapered screw in most regular hardware
stores anymore.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
whit3rd wrote:
> I've got a microset countersink tool that came from an old Boeing
> Surplus bin, that's extremely handy, too. Countersinking really
> greatly helps with traditional woodscrews, but most available screws
> are odd bugle-head shapes now. :-(
I have at least 1000 screws in my shop the moment. Some are bronze, a few
are stainless steel, most are plain old steel.
Nary a single one has a bugle head. That's because I used up all my drywall
screws the last time I messed with drywall.
On Mon, 14 Dec 2015 19:31:40 -0500
woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
> I have a large set of those. They were made for Craftsman. I like
> them, but I would prefer to just have 2 drills , one with a
> drill/countersink, the other with a screw bit.
now i will have to check the craftsman price
i like it because it is one tool and no need to go looking for the other when
i need it and it has the quick change
On Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:02:19 -0800 (PST)
whit3rd <[email protected]> wrote:
> Yep, I've got an Hitachi version of that, from maybe a decade back.
> It gets lots of use.
i wonder if the tool companies source out parts like this or they really
do make them
i got a set of ryobi forstner bits that have been good
> I've got a microset countersink tool that came from an old Boeing
> Surplus bin, that's extremely handy, too. Countersinking really
> greatly helps with traditional woodscrews, but most available screws
> are odd bugle-head shapes now. :-(
have noticed that too so far found if i get the countersink just right
it conceals fine
still have old screws that i have got from craigslist or fle markets or
wherever i come across them
got a whole bin of nails and screws free just for taking them
although have not had a need for duplex nails
On Tue, 15 Dec 2015 05:31:06 -0500
"dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Nary a single one has a bugle head. That's because I used up all my
> drywall screws the last time I messed with drywall.
i did not notice my drywall screws had a bugle head
is it considered a bugle head if the edges are rounded
i guess there are varying degrees of bugles
i have some cabinet screws that definitely have a bugle head
On 12/15/15 11:52 AM, John McCoy wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> I'm sure I won't be the first to point out that tapered drill bits are
>> for tapered screws.
>
> Well that's just not so.
Yes it is.
> The idea behind a tapered drill
> like the Fullers is to drill a pilot hole (the tapered
> part) followed by a clearance hole.
I don't know anything about that particular brand. I was addressing
tapered bit specifically.
> And I don't care
> what sort of screw you use, if you're doing quality work
> you only want the threads engaged in the lower of the
> parts you're joining.
>
Yes and no. Newer, designed, screws have a different set of threads at
the top that will shear out a section of wood wider than the threads at
the top of the screw to keep the screw from "jacking up" the board being
held down.
> This Lee Valley set doesn't appear to drill a clearance
> hole in the upper part - and thus it's only useful for
> quick and dirty work, not for anything intended to be
> permanent.
>
> John
>
Well, that's just a blanket statement for which I have to call BS.
I've drivel thousands of holes using that same design and believe me,
every screw was permanent.
We develop different techniques for different materials we are using.
Softer woods don't need a "clearance hole" because the upper threads
will simply strip out the wood in the board being fastened. And in
hardwoods where you don't have a "clearance hole" I find it faster to
simply let the screws "jack up" the hardwood material being fastened
until enough threads have engaged in the material to which the hardwood
is being attached, then simply back out the screw until the board that
is jacked-up drops back down flush, then drive home the screw.
I will on occasion drill out a clearance hole, but your statement is
painting with too broad of a brush.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On Tue, 15 Dec 2015 13:56:28 -0800 (PST)
whit3rd <[email protected]> wrote:
> If the bugle-head makes contact, it'll be first at the small 'bugle'
> flare, or maybe at the rim alone, but never on the full face of the
> countersunk hole. Because it's not the right SHAPE to contact the
> full cut face of the countersunk hole.
but i have to research what bugle head means because i am a bit confused on
that still
my countersink worked fine for the small bugle cabinet screws i use
they are cheap black screws
probably #6
it starts to sound like a countersink mismatch
a bugle head needs the right countersink and so does the convetional
head
On Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:52:49 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> I'm sure I won't be the first to point out that tapered drill bits are
>> for tapered screws.
>
>Well that's just not so. The idea behind a tapered drill
>like the Fullers is to drill a pilot hole (the tapered
>part) followed by a clearance hole. And I don't care
>what sort of screw you use, if you're doing quality work
>you only want the threads engaged in the lower of the
>parts you're joining.
Tapered? I thought you'd want a step for that purpose. I'm with
-MIKE-, tapered drills are for tapered screws.
>
>This Lee Valley set doesn't appear to drill a clearance
>hole in the upper part - and thus it's only useful for
>quick and dirty work, not for anything intended to be
>permanent.
>
>John
On 12/14/2015 9:13 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote in news:n4nev6$3bv$3
> @dont-email.me:
>
>>
>> i did not know these existed but it is a good idea
>>
>> http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=73226&cat=1,44047&ap=2
>>
>> price seems reasonable too
>
> It's hard to tell from the picture on the webpage,
> but those don't appear to have tapered drills. If
> they don't, then they're essentially useless.
>
> If you really want a set of drill/countersink bits,
> get a set of Fullers (no quickchange there, but at
> least they'll work the way they're susposed to).
>
> John
>
John, they are useful, you are assuming that we are still using old Wood
screws. I don't use them much anymore. Most everything available now out
classes those. They don't split the wood as easily, because there is no
taper, they have deep threads, and cut like razors.
I have a set of tapered drills, and I haven't used them in 15-20 years.
--
Jeff
On 15 Dec 2015 01:12:08 GMT, Puckdropper
<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
>-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 12/14/15 4:14 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>>>
>>> i did not know these existed but it is a good idea
>>>
>>
>> Punctuation?
>>
>>
>
>It's a good thing he doesn't come from a Commodore 64 background, where
>they eliminated spaces to save memory!
He'd probably delete all the '0's because they're of no value either.
>
>Puckdropper