Howdy,
Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...<g>
I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
are unusual:
The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
of 7000KW.
I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
capacity would just be money wasted.
Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
automatic) generator?
Very sincere thanks,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 23:06:14 GMT, [email protected] (Doug
Miller) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, Kenneth <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>Kenneth wrote:
>[snip]
>>>> I need something on the order of 5-10KW.
>[snip]
>>The units I have seen are in the 7KW range
>
>Seems to fit -- I'm not sure I see the problem here... <g>
>
>> and I need a small fraction of that.
>
>If all you really need to power is a sump pump and a small fan, then an
>automatic backup unit seems to be overkill; is there a reason you can't use,
>say, a 1500-watt portable generator?
>
>Consider a sump pump with an alternative power source, too, such as Basement
>Watchdog or Ace in the Hole.
Hi Doug,
I could use a small generator... In fact, I have, but...
We travel a fair amount, and living in rural New Hampshire,
outages are not all that rare.
We would be in trouble if we had an outage while we were
away.
Beyond that, the standard "battery backup" units for the
sump pump seem to have a run time on the order of 15-20
hours and I recall an ice storm in which we lost power for
more than 96 hours.
Thanks for your thoughts,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
J. Clarke took a can of maroon spray paint on November 20, 2007 05:26 pm and
wrote the following:
> Kenneth wrote:
>> Howdy,
>>
>> Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...<g>
>>
>> I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
>> are unusual:
>>
>> The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
>> of 7000KW.
>>
>> I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
>> "standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
>> is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
>> capacity would just be money wasted.
>>
>> Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
>> automatic) generator?
>
> Home Depot?
>
> Try http://www.guardiangenerators.com/Default.aspx
>
> 7000 KW wouldn't be a residential unit, it would supply 200 amp
> service to more than 100 houses.
>
That's what I thought, he seems to be off my a small factor of 1000.
To OP, 7000KW == 7MW, that is a lot of juice.
--
Lits Slut #9
Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code.
"Kenneth" wrote:
> Hi again,
>
> Indeed, my numbers were all screwed up... 'sorry.
>
> I need to drive only a sump pump, and a small fan in a
> direct vent gas heater. The units I have seen are in the 7KW
> range, and I need a small fraction of that.
Forget the automatic transfer part of you spec.
An automatic transfer switch will cost more that the engine-generator
set alone.
Based on the loads above, you will have time to start eng-gen before
the world ends.
Since this is for infrequent use, consider a 10HP-5KW, "Contractor"
generator.
Noisy as all get out but biggest bang for the $, for a short time
application (8-10 hours at a time).
Lew
"Kenneth" wrote
>
> Beyond that, the standard "battery backup" units for the
> sump pump seem to have a run time on the order of 15-20
> hours and I recall an ice storm in which we lost power for
>more than 96 hours.
Further threads provided additional info RE: Application.
Years ago, we sold a mini SCADA unit designed spefifically for this
type application.
You would monitor the incoming power.
If it would fail, a contact would close, then call you and announce
the power was out.
It could also close a contact to electrically start a generator.
Found a lot a application in Canada for monitoring telecommunication
facilities out in the boonies that were only accessible by helo in the
winter.
This is at least 20 year old technology and had about a $3K cost back
then.
Today, the net will have revolutionized SCADA systems.
Try a Google for SCADA and see if small systems are still offered.
Lew
"Kenneth" wrote:
> Hi Lew,
>
> When I am home, I can easily continue to do what I do now:
>
> The power goes out (often ice storms, but about a week ago a
> fellow drove into a pole), and I fire up my portable Honda
> generator, connect it up, and rest easy.
>
> The issue is that we are often away from our home...
>
> I am trying to find a reasonable way to protect our place
> from freezing, and flooding, in that situation.
See my post RE: SCADA
Lew
Another thought:
Forget trying to react to a loss of power, use an alternate power
source from the git go for the sump pump and the furnace.
A couple of solar panels, some T-105, 6VDC golf cart batteries wired
in series to provide either 12VDC or 24VDC and a sine wave inverter to
run the sump pump on a full time basis.
The more batteries the better within reason,
6-8 would be manageable, IMHO.
Standard stuff on a crusing sailboat, and definitely less costly than
a SCADA.
Lew
"Kenneth" <> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Howdy,
>
> Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...<g>
>
> I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
> are unusual:
>
> The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
> of 7000KW.
>
> I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
> "standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
> is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
> capacity would just be money wasted.
>
> Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
> automatic) generator?
>
> Very sincere thanks,
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
The 7KW Generac is as small as I know. I am reasonably sure no manufacturer
bothers with any thing smaller. It gets to a point where the actual
manufacturing costs are pretty much the same the smaller units. Say you
could find a 4KW unit. Everything for the 4KW would pretty much be the same
as the 7KW that is available. The cost for the smaller generator head and
engine would only affect the manufacturing cost by a small margin. You still
need a cabinet to put it all in, plus a transfer switch. My bet is the
manufacturing cost would be $100 less than the available 7KW unit, so the
manufacturer does not bother to build them. So you want to buy a 4KW for
$1800, versus a 7KW for $2000? Buck up and buy the 7KW and put a few more
circuits on the transfer, and enjoy!
In another perspective, I work as a service tech for a company that sells
standby Generac, standby generators. In 10 years we have never sold a unit
less than 10KW. 10 years ago Generac built a 6KW unit. We had two in stock,
and they sat in stock until my boss built a new home. He put both 6KW units
on his home to get rid of them! There is virtually no market for the small
units, in fact our main sellers are 13-16KW units.
Greg
Somebody wrote:
> I wonder if a solar or wind powered charger would be sufficient for
> the battery backup on the sump pump.
NBD
80W solar panels are less than $500.
T-105, 6VDC, golf cart batteries are less than $65.
A small inverter is less than $500.
Assume the sump pump requires 2A and operates on a 50% duty cycle
which would require 240W/hour.
I use 50% efficiency of solar cells for estimating, thus (80W)50% =
40W.
240W/40W = 6 panels or about $3,000.
T-105 are rated about 235AH.
If you cycle them between 70%-90%, they provide about 47AH/pair at
12VDC.
240W/47AH = 5 sets of batteries minimum, I'd probably use 6 sets or 12
batteries,
thus (12)$65)=$780
Panels....................$3000
Batteries..................$800
Inverter....................$500
Misc hardware.........$500
Total......................$4800
Use $5000 as an estimate to achieve total independance from an
unreliable supplier.
Lew
"Skip Williams" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> IMOHO, I wouldnt trust a generator starting automtically and running while
> I was away if it was a critical application. Too many factors involved.
>
> Skip
Better than staying home all the time! A standby generator is often the best
choice. Sure the genny could fail, shit happens sometimes. But then the sump
pump could fail to. It gets to some point where you have to put some faith
in something, or stay home 'cuz you are to paranoid up to leave!
Greg
DUH >>>>>>>>>>>>> I Screwed up.
(2A)(120V)(50%) = 120Watts, not 240Watts.
Reduce equipment as required.
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Somebody wrote:
>
> > I wonder if a solar or wind powered charger would be sufficient
for
> > the battery backup on the sump pump.
>
> NBD
>
> 80W solar panels are less than $500.
>
> T-105, 6VDC, golf cart batteries are less than $65.
>
> A small inverter is less than $500.
>
> Assume the sump pump requires 2A and operates on a 50% duty cycle
> which would require 240W/hour.
>
> I use 50% efficiency of solar cells for estimating, thus (80W)50% =
> 40W.
>
> 240W/40W = 6 panels or about $3,000.
Actually: 120W/40W = 3 panels or about $1,500.
>
> T-105 are rated about 235AH.
>
> If you cycle them between 70%-90%, they provide about 47AH/pair at
> 12VDC.
>
> 240W/47AH = 5 sets of batteries minimum, I'd probably use 6 sets or
12
> batteries,
> thus (12)$65)=$780
Actually:
120W/47AH = 3 sets of batteries minimum.,
thus (6)$65)=$390
> Panels....................$3000
> Batteries..................$800
> Inverter....................$500
> Misc hardware.........$500
>
> Total......................$4800
Actually:
Panels...................$1,500
Batteries..................$400
Inverter....................$500
Misc hardware.........$300
Total.....................$2,700
Use $3,000 as an estimate to achieve total independance from an
unreliable supplier.
Lew
"mac davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:55:15 -0500, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>The killers are the need for electric start so the thing can start
>>automatically and for a UL approved transfer switch. You just don't
>>find electric start on very small generators--in the low capacities
>>they're made to be portable and adding electric start adds weight that
>>reduces portability.
>>
> I found it kind of interesting that our cheap ($500) 5.5 Coleman generator
> has a
> casting on it for an optional starter...
>
>
>
Keep in mind that engine casting is built for may different applications,
some require electric start.
Greg
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Kenneth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> I appreciate your comments about the Guardian stuff, and
>> would welcome any further information you could offer based
>> upon your experience with the units.
>>
>> For example, what might you know about ease of installation,
>> trustworthiness of the unattended starting, durability, etc.
>>
>
> The Guardian generators are probably the best buy for the money in the
> price bracket. You can buy them direct or you can find them at any Home
> Depot as well as a lot of independent stores. Very reliable. Fully self
> contained, and housed in a good cabinet that will withstand years (and
> years, and years...) of weather. I'm not sure if they have fully switched
> over by now, but many of the units (last year it was based on size - over
> 10K) used Honda motors, and you just can't beat a Honda motor for that
> application. They start reliably and that's what you want.
>
> The generator hooks to propane or natural gas - depending on what you have
> at the house. If you're on natural gas, you quite likely could require
> the gas company to put in a larger meter since many older ones don't feed
> enough for a generator. This is not a big issue though. It hooks up with
> a transfer switch (provided in the price), that will either be a sub-set
> of your existing breakers, or with a whole house disconnect (optional).
> The transfer switch/disconnect panel ties into your main panel and becomes
> the breakers for the circuits you select to keep energized during a power
> failure. As such - it mounts near (typically within 2 feet) of your main
> panel.
>
> The generator will self test itself weekly, based on a date/time you
> program into it. It will fire up, run for 15-20 minutes, and then shut
> down. When a power failure occurs, it will sense the absence of outside
> power, then it will wait for about 30-45 seconds to see whether power is
> really gone away, or if this is just a joke played by the power company.
> Finally, it will shrug its shoulders and fire itself up, switching off the
> grid, and providing power directly to those circuits you've put on the
> disconnect. It will run merrily until power comes back on - which is it
> always watching for. Once it sees power back on the grid, it keeps an eye
> on it for another 30-45 seconds, to make sure that power is stable. Once
> it decides that the power is for real, it shuts itself off and switches
> back over to the grid. Then, it simply sits and waits for the next power
> failure.
>
> For long term expected failures, you would probably want a 100 gallon
> propane tank (assuming you're not hook to natural gas) for the generator.
> I just can't recall the exact consumption rate right now, but if you look
> on the web for Guardian, you could easily find it. The thing is you want
> a nice big tank that will take you through the self tests all year, and
> still be able to run the generator for some time, before requiring refill.
>
> We use them a lot in the northeast owing to winter power outages up here.
> They are as reliable and as trustworthy as it gets. No - I don't sell
> them, I just have some experience installing them. I've probably
> installed 10 since last winter, and I've had the great (dis)pleasure of
> installing them in just about every environment you can imagine. For the
> amount of effort you will go through to cob up some alternate design and
> hope to gain a predictable result, you'll probably spend at least as much
> money, and certainly way more time, than if you just bought one of these.
>
> As for installation - they are not difficult to install. There is no need
> to pay the install prices that places like Home Depot charge if you are in
> any way capable with electrical work, or know someone who is. The hardest
> part of doing it yourself is getting the generator off of your truck or
> trailer and leveled on the ground. The simplest install method for this
> is to throw a half dozen bags of stone down, rake it level, grunt the
> generator in place on it, and smile. The included documentation from
> Guardian is plenty sufficient for any competent DIY electrical skills.
> Typical install time for one (after you've done one...) is about 3 hours.
> Double that for your first install. If you can do it yourself, you'll
> save approximately $1000 if you buy one from Home Depot, by not buying
> their install package.
>
> That should answer some of your questions - but may generate more. As
> away if you have others.
>
> --
>
> -Mike-
> [email protected]
>
You better recheck your information, As far AS I know Generac has never used
Honda engines, as lest I have never seen one with a Honda. I work for the
only full service Generac dealer in the state of North Dakota. You need
warranty service an a Generac in North Dakota, you call us!
Generac has been building their own engines for years At one time they were
in bed with Briggs & Stratton and many of there air cooled unit were B&S
powered.
The rest of your info is spot on. Generac builds a very dependable unit,
much better than units they built ~5 years ago. I can't even count how many
I have personally installed over the years, everything from 10KW to 85KW.
The instructions that come with the Generac pre-packaged units is very clear
and easy to understand. Anyone with some mechanical ability should be able
to do the install themselves. We get an occasional problem, but nothing
consistent. On the self installs I get called out sometimes, and it is
usually a installation problem by someone that has no business doing it
themselves!
Greg
"mac davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:43:48 -0500, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>>>
>>> I found it kind of interesting that our cheap ($500) 5.5 Coleman
>>> generator has a casting on it for an optional starter...
>>
>>But what does it end up costing once you've gotten the starter?
>>
>>--
> We didn't do it, but the friend that went to the states for the generator
> was
> figuring about $100 for the starter, battery and battery holder..
> Another $10 for 50' of speaker wire and a door bell button for the "remote
> start".. ;-]
>
Close, but not that easy! You would need a starter solenoid also. Then you
will need something to activate the manual choke, a couple more wires and a
small 12 volt solenoid. Plus a remote shut down of some sort, probably more
wires and a relay to short or break the ignition power. Before you know it
you will have a couple hundred dollars into a cobbled up control system.
Greg
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:21:39 -0500, Mike Marlow wrote:
[... snip stuff about Genrac ...]
I've read elsewhere (alt.home.repair, IIRC) that there are two lines
from Genrac. One with high speed shaft (3600rpm?) and one with low speed
(1800rpm?). Apparently the high speed units are very noisy compared to
the low speed units. As in "weak the dead" noisy. And it is this version
that is offered by the borgs.
Can you corroborate or refute that information?
TIA.
--
Art Greenberg
artg at eclipse dot net
"Art Greenberg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:21:39 -0500, Mike Marlow wrote:
> [... snip stuff about Genrac ...]
>
> I've read elsewhere (alt.home.repair, IIRC) that there are two lines
> from Genrac. One with high speed shaft (3600rpm?) and one with low speed
> (1800rpm?). Apparently the high speed units are very noisy compared to
> the low speed units. As in "weak the dead" noisy. And it is this version
> that is offered by the borgs.
>
> Can you corroborate or refute that information?
>
> TIA.
>
> --
> Art Greenberg
> artg at eclipse dot net
>
Not really true. The RPM depends on the model. All the smaller air cooled
units run at 3600 RPM, ALL OF THEM. Some of the liquid cooled units run at
3600 or 1800, some even run at 2300 RPM with a gear reduction between the
engine and generator head. The reason for the difference in RPM is they will
take a ~50 HP engine and run it at 1800 RPM to produce 20KW. Then turn
around and use the same engine running at 3600 RPM to produce 25KW. That
engine will not produce enough HP to run a 25KW unit at 1800 RPM.
Some sizes do come in 1800 or 3600 RPM. It is not just a Home Depot deal. As
A dealer we can order certain sized generators in either RPM, but the lower
RPM units are from from the same "model". Generac builds "sound attenuated"
units for customers that want quieter units, and are willing to speed more
$$. Not a different line, just different models offered in the same line.
Sort of like buying a Chevy Impala, or a Cadillac, or maybe a Corvette.
Different models for different purposes, and prices.
As for the noise, the 3600 RPM air cooled units are surprisingly quiet. If
you sit the generator right next to the home you will hear it run, but turn
on a TV, or a radio and you probably will not even notice it. And if you do
notice the engine running, the noise gives you a warm fuzzy feeling knowing
you are staying warm and secure, while your neighbors are panicking and
getting ready to storm your house and take it over! ;-)
Take some time and shop all you like.
http://www.guardiangenerators.com/Products/Residential/Residential.aspx
Greg
"Kenneth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> I appreciate your comments about the Guardian stuff, and
> would welcome any further information you could offer based
> upon your experience with the units.
>
> For example, what might you know about ease of installation,
> trustworthiness of the unattended starting, durability, etc.
>
The Guardian generators are probably the best buy for the money in the price
bracket. You can buy them direct or you can find them at any Home Depot as
well as a lot of independent stores. Very reliable. Fully self contained,
and housed in a good cabinet that will withstand years (and years, and
years...) of weather. I'm not sure if they have fully switched over by now,
but many of the units (last year it was based on size - over 10K) used Honda
motors, and you just can't beat a Honda motor for that application. They
start reliably and that's what you want.
The generator hooks to propane or natural gas - depending on what you have
at the house. If you're on natural gas, you quite likely could require the
gas company to put in a larger meter since many older ones don't feed enough
for a generator. This is not a big issue though. It hooks up with a
transfer switch (provided in the price), that will either be a sub-set of
your existing breakers, or with a whole house disconnect (optional). The
transfer switch/disconnect panel ties into your main panel and becomes the
breakers for the circuits you select to keep energized during a power
failure. As such - it mounts near (typically within 2 feet) of your main
panel.
The generator will self test itself weekly, based on a date/time you program
into it. It will fire up, run for 15-20 minutes, and then shut down. When
a power failure occurs, it will sense the absence of outside power, then it
will wait for about 30-45 seconds to see whether power is really gone away,
or if this is just a joke played by the power company. Finally, it will
shrug its shoulders and fire itself up, switching off the grid, and
providing power directly to those circuits you've put on the disconnect. It
will run merrily until power comes back on - which is it always watching
for. Once it sees power back on the grid, it keeps an eye on it for another
30-45 seconds, to make sure that power is stable. Once it decides that the
power is for real, it shuts itself off and switches back over to the grid.
Then, it simply sits and waits for the next power failure.
For long term expected failures, you would probably want a 100 gallon
propane tank (assuming you're not hook to natural gas) for the generator. I
just can't recall the exact consumption rate right now, but if you look on
the web for Guardian, you could easily find it. The thing is you want a
nice big tank that will take you through the self tests all year, and still
be able to run the generator for some time, before requiring refill.
We use them a lot in the northeast owing to winter power outages up here.
They are as reliable and as trustworthy as it gets. No - I don't sell them,
I just have some experience installing them. I've probably installed 10
since last winter, and I've had the great (dis)pleasure of installing them
in just about every environment you can imagine. For the amount of effort
you will go through to cob up some alternate design and hope to gain a
predictable result, you'll probably spend at least as much money, and
certainly way more time, than if you just bought one of these.
As for installation - they are not difficult to install. There is no need
to pay the install prices that places like Home Depot charge if you are in
any way capable with electrical work, or know someone who is. The hardest
part of doing it yourself is getting the generator off of your truck or
trailer and leveled on the ground. The simplest install method for this is
to throw a half dozen bags of stone down, rake it level, grunt the generator
in place on it, and smile. The included documentation from Guardian is
plenty sufficient for any competent DIY electrical skills. Typical install
time for one (after you've done one...) is about 3 hours. Double that for
your first install. If you can do it yourself, you'll save approximately
$1000 if you buy one from Home Depot, by not buying their install package.
That should answer some of your questions - but may generate more. As away
if you have others.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Kenneth wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...<g>
>
> I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
> are unusual:
>
> The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
> of 7000KW.
>
> I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
> "standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
> is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
> capacity would just be money wasted.
>
> Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
> automatic) generator?
>
> Very sincere thanks,
Not sure about the automatic part, but Honda might have the answers.
They make damn good generators:
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/gencon.asp
Also, I saw a water powered sump pump as backup on "This Old House"
several months ago. The house water supply pressure drove the thing
when the power was out for the regular sump pump. Wouldn't solve the
fan issue though - I'm guessing you're trying to prevent a possible
freezing problem? Do a google on "water powered sump pump" and you'll
get lots of sources.
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 11:03:10 -0500, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> I found it kind of interesting that our cheap ($500) 5.5 Coleman
>>>> generator has a casting on it for an optional starter...
>>>
>>> But what does it end up costing once you've gotten the starter?
>>>
>>> --
>> We didn't do it, but the friend that went to the states for the
>> generator was figuring about $100 for the starter, battery and
>> battery holder..
>> Another $10 for 50' of speaker wire and a door bell button for the
>> "remote start".. ;-]
>
>Which works if you don't need _automatic_ start.
>
nope, it doesn't... I was just answering your question..
Of course, it may very well work with a control panel like the Honda option..
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:35:32 -0700, Doug Winterburn
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Kenneth wrote:
>> Howdy,
>>
>> Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...<g>
>>
>> I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
>> are unusual:
>>
>> The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
>> of 7000KW.
>>
>> I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
>> "standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
>> is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
>> capacity would just be money wasted.
>>
>> Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
>> automatic) generator?
>>
>> Very sincere thanks,
>
>Not sure about the automatic part, but Honda might have the answers.
>They make damn good generators:
>
>http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/gencon.asp
>
>Also, I saw a water powered sump pump as backup on "This Old House"
>several months ago. The house water supply pressure drove the thing
>when the power was out for the regular sump pump. Wouldn't solve the
>fan issue though - I'm guessing you're trying to prevent a possible
>freezing problem? Do a google on "water powered sump pump" and you'll
>get lots of sources.
Hi Doug,
Yes, freezing is (half) the issue.
I have a second (unused) flue in our chimney and could
easily install a gas heater using it, but...
It is my understanding that those heaters must have
electricity (to run the fan).
The water powered sump pump confuses me though:
If we had an extended outage, we would not have any water
pressure (or at least would not have it for very long.)
If I had electricity to pressurize our water supply, I would
just use it to power the pump I now have (unless I am
misinterpreting your comment about water pressure.)
You will see other issues elsewhere in the thread.
Sincere thanks,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
Kenneth <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
*trim*
>
> Hi again,
>
> My desire for backup electric power IS for a sump pump, to
> prevent flooding. I regret any confusion. We are in a rural
> setting, and have our own well. So, no electricity means no
> water pressure...
>
> Thanks again,
It sounds to me like you need an alternative. Would a passive drain of
some sort be feasable? If you can keep water from entering your
basement, you don't have to pump it out.
How about a neighbor? His power's likely to be out at the same time as
yours, so he could start your generator and switch the sump pump over.
(You'll probably have to bake him a cake now and again or something.)
How much water are we talking about anyway? Does the pump run constantly
as it's raining, or does it run maybe 4 times a day? You could enlarge
your sump pit and size it to fit your longer average outages.
How about... I just thought of this: A pump that's turned by water
coming down your down spout. When it starts to rain, the pump starts
going and drawing water out of your basement. You might even be able to
use a water powered sump pump by directing the water from your roof
through it.
Solar electricity is getting better. You might be able to charge a bank
of batteries during the day and have them run your sump pump.
You could just go for a whole house generator and enjoy the extra power
it can provide while you're there. It's sure nice to not have to reset
all those clocks.
Keep thinking and asking, someone's bound to come to a workable solution.
Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.
To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
Ken,
I don't have the link right handy but for whatever generator you end up
with, you can get a converter for it that allows the generator to run on
gasoline, propane or natural gas. I have the converter on my 8550W unit and
it works but it is a bit hard to start on propane when it's cold. So I start
it on gas, then switch to propane. Reason I bring that up is you'll get a
longer run time than what you get on 5 gal of gas on the typical home
generator. That gets you about 12hrs of run time with a 50% load. a 20lb
bottle of propane gives you a little less run time but.... You can get
larger propane tanks that would give you plenty of run time.
You could get one like this that has an LP option - with electric start
capability http://www.duropower.com/item.asp?PID=110&FID=15&level=1
Now, all you need is a trunk monkey that jumps out to hit the start button
when the electricty goes out..... You can find SCADA type of equipment that
will do that by sensing when the power goes out and trips a relay to close a
contact that starts the electric starter on the gen. But it needs to be
smart. Needs to stop "pushing the starter button" so to speak, once it
senses the engine starts. Plus, what will it do if it doesn't sense the
engine started plus, how long does it wait when the house power is lost
before starting the generator and what does it do when it senses the power
is restored. So you probably could jerry-rig several items together but may
be best just to bite the bullet and get a small whole house unit with the
all the bells and whistles (LP, gas, natural gas capable), auto-start,
auto-sensing / switchover. Plus, even when you are home and the power goes
out - you will have power instead of getting your flashlight out.
A battery backup sump pump with a battery to give you days of run time (on /
off cycling) will probably go for about $3k. One house in our neighborhood
has one - and it did work while she was out of town last year for a week, so
it was money well spent according to her. Only to have her basement flooded
(us too...) a month later.
Justify the cost by esitimating the damage caused if the sump pump doesn't
work while you're gone. Add in freezing pipes, lost food in the fridge and
freezer and whatever else your losses could be if you're not around.
Bob S.
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> If there's a Home Depot near you they'll sell you the unit and deliver
> and install it for you--they'll likely have at least one on display as
> well so you can get an idea of what it looks like. Their prices
> aren't bad either.
>
Home Depot's prices are pretty good on them, though locals can beat HD's
price if they want to. HD charges around $1000 for the install and you can
certainly beat that, even with a licensed electrician and certified gas guy.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Kenneth,
How about going for the smallest automatic generator that you can find and
then allowing your neighbor to tap into it during a power failure, right
after he checks your sump pump? That sounds like a win-win situation to me.
Your neighbor may have to do some leg work at his house, but he should be
able to run his circulating pump for heat, his well pump (assume he is on
well water as you are), and maybe a light or two. Granted, not all at the
same time, but it does offer him some incentive. Just a thought.
Peter.
"Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Kenneth wrote:
>> Howdy,
>>
>> Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...<g>
>>
>> I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
>> are unusual:
>>
>> The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
>> of 7000KW.
>>
>> I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
>> "standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
>> is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
>> capacity would just be money wasted.
>>
>> Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
>> automatic) generator?
>>
>> Very sincere thanks,
>
> How about this for the pump part:
>
> http://www.absolutehome.com/web/catalog/product_detail.aspx?pid=70717
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> 80W solar panels are less than $500.
>
> T-105, 6VDC, golf cart batteries are less than $65.
>
> A small inverter is less than $500.
>
> Assume the sump pump requires 2A and operates on a 50% duty cycle
> which would require 240W/hour.
>
> I use 50% efficiency of solar cells for estimating, thus (80W)50% =
> 40W.
>
> 240W/40W = 6 panels or about $3,000.
>
> T-105 are rated about 235AH.
>
> If you cycle them between 70%-90%, they provide about 47AH/pair at
> 12VDC.
>
> 240W/47AH = 5 sets of batteries minimum, I'd probably use 6 sets or 12
> batteries,
> thus (12)$65)=$780
>
> Panels....................$3000
> Batteries..................$800
> Inverter....................$500
> Misc hardware.........$500
>
> Total......................$4800
>
> Use $5000 as an estimate to achieve total independance from an
> unreliable supplier.
>
> Lew
>
>
A 7 KW Guardian generator runs around $2,000.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
"Greg O" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> You better recheck your information, As far AS I know Generac has never
> used Honda engines, as lest I have never seen one with a Honda. I work for
> the only full service Generac dealer in the state of North Dakota. You
> need warranty service an a Generac in North Dakota, you call us!
Sure they did. I installed several of them last winter and this spring.
Not all models, so it might have been some kind of a contract that was based
on availability rather than KW rating, but without a doubt, some of them had
Honda engines in them. I wonder if that was something that happened
because of a supply/demand issue for a while. If my memory serves me
correctly (and it often does not...) I think at least one 10KW (I remember
this particular install too well) was a Honda.
>
> The rest of your info is spot on. Generac builds a very dependable unit,
> much better than units they built ~5 years ago. I can't even count how
> many I have personally installed over the years, everything from 10KW to
> 85KW. The instructions that come with the Generac pre-packaged units is
> very clear and easy to understand. Anyone with some mechanical ability
> should be able to do the install themselves. We get an occasional problem,
> but nothing consistent. On the self installs I get called out sometimes,
> and it is usually a installation problem by someone that has no business
> doing it themselves!
> Greg
Likewise. The biggest problem I found when called to help people who had
tried it themselves was when they panic'd at the tie-ins in the main panel.
Typically, these people knew absolutely nothing about wiring and really
should not have tried that part on their own anyway - as you experienced.
The second most common cry for help came from people who wanted the
disconnect located further away from their main panel and were intimidated
by constructing their own conduit from the main to the disconnect.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Art Greenberg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:21:39 -0500, Mike Marlow wrote:
> [... snip stuff about Genrac ...]
>
> I've read elsewhere (alt.home.repair, IIRC) that there are two lines
> from Genrac. One with high speed shaft (3600rpm?) and one with low speed
> (1800rpm?). Apparently the high speed units are very noisy compared to
> the low speed units. As in "weak the dead" noisy. And it is this version
> that is offered by the borgs.
>
> Can you corroborate or refute that information?
>
What you read is pure bunk. It's the stuff that is typical of
trash-the-BORG stuff. They are the same generators. Home Depot does not
spec products from manufacturers. They simply sell what the manufacturer
builds.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Kenneth wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 20:31:56 -0700, Doug Winterburn
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Kenneth wrote:
>>> Howdy,
>>>
>>> Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...<g>
>>>
>>> I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
>>> are unusual:
>>>
>>> The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
>>> of 7000KW.
>>>
>>> I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
>>> "standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
>>> is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
>>> capacity would just be money wasted.
>>>
>>> Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
>>> automatic) generator?
>>>
>>> Very sincere thanks,
>> How about this for the pump part:
>>
>> http://www.absolutehome.com/web/catalog/product_detail.aspx?pid=70717
>
> Hi Doug,
>
> A battery backup and inverter is a possibility, but we have
> had outages as long as four days, and also have had
> situations in which our pump cycled on and off every thirty
> seconds or so for a week.
>
> If those two situations were to coincide, I would need quite
> a pile of batteries to stay dry.
>
> Sincere thanks, as before,
How about this and the remote start generator of your choice along with
the above battery powered pump?
http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/921/docserve.asp
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 10:27:55 -0600, "Greg O" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Close, but not that easy! You would need a starter solenoid also. Then you
>will need something to activate the manual choke, a couple more wires and a
>small 12 volt solenoid. Plus a remote shut down of some sort, probably more
>wires and a relay to short or break the ignition power. Before you know it
>you will have a couple hundred dollars into a cobbled up control system.
>Greg
good point... we didn't pursue it, as we have more faith in the Mexican power
company than he does...
His price did include the starter solenoid and kill switch, but I never thought
about the choke..
They are impressive...
During the Baja 1000 a few weeks ago, a chopper flew into the power lines
between Ensenada and San Felipe, killing the crew and blacking out a large chunk
of Baja California..
We got power back within 6 hours, at about 11pm..
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 20:31:56 -0700, Doug Winterburn
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Kenneth wrote:
>> Howdy,
>>
>> Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...<g>
>>
>> I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
>> are unusual:
>>
>> The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
>> of 7000KW.
>>
>> I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
>> "standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
>> is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
>> capacity would just be money wasted.
>>
>> Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
>> automatic) generator?
>>
>> Very sincere thanks,
>
>How about this for the pump part:
>
>http://www.absolutehome.com/web/catalog/product_detail.aspx?pid=70717
Hi Doug,
A battery backup and inverter is a possibility, but we have
had outages as long as four days, and also have had
situations in which our pump cycled on and off every thirty
seconds or so for a week.
If those two situations were to coincide, I would need quite
a pile of batteries to stay dry.
Sincere thanks, as before,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
Lew,
Plus the added advantage of "no moving parts' <g>
Less than he would spend on a auto start generator (yeah...right!), auto
transfer switch, etc. that would all work flawlessly while he was away.
Me..I would gamble on the solar thing first<g>
Skip
www.ShopFileR.com
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Somebody wrote:
>
>> I wonder if a solar or wind powered charger would be sufficient for
>> the battery backup on the sump pump.
>
> NBD
>
> 80W solar panels are less than $500.
>
> T-105, 6VDC, golf cart batteries are less than $65.
>
> A small inverter is less than $500.
>
> Assume the sump pump requires 2A and operates on a 50% duty cycle
> which would require 240W/hour.
>
> I use 50% efficiency of solar cells for estimating, thus (80W)50% =
> 40W.
>
> 240W/40W = 6 panels or about $3,000.
>
> T-105 are rated about 235AH.
>
> If you cycle them between 70%-90%, they provide about 47AH/pair at
> 12VDC.
>
> 240W/47AH = 5 sets of batteries minimum, I'd probably use 6 sets or 12
> batteries,
> thus (12)$65)=$780
>
> Panels....................$3000
> Batteries..................$800
> Inverter....................$500
> Misc hardware.........$500
>
> Total......................$4800
>
> Use $5000 as an estimate to achieve total independance from an
> unreliable supplier.
>
> Lew
>
>
Kenneth wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...<g>
>
> I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
> are unusual:
>
> The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
> of 7000KW.
>
> I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
> "standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
> is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
> capacity would just be money wasted.
>
> Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
> automatic) generator?
>
> Very sincere thanks,
How about this for the pump part:
http://www.absolutehome.com/web/catalog/product_detail.aspx?pid=70717
In article <[email protected]>, Kenneth <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Kenneth wrote:
[snip]
>>> I need something on the order of 5-10KW.
[snip]
>The units I have seen are in the 7KW range
Seems to fit -- I'm not sure I see the problem here... <g>
> and I need a small fraction of that.
If all you really need to power is a sump pump and a small fan, then an
automatic backup unit seems to be overkill; is there a reason you can't use,
say, a 1500-watt portable generator?
Consider a sump pump with an alternative power source, too, such as Basement
Watchdog or Ace in the Hole.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
In article <[email protected]>, "Peter Bogiatzidis" <[email protected]> wrote:
>How about going for the smallest automatic generator that you can find and
>then allowing your neighbor to tap into it during a power failure, right
>after he checks your sump pump? That sounds like a win-win situation to me.
As long as the neighbor is connecting to a receptacle, that's fine. If the
connection to the neighbor's house is hard-wired, then you have both Code and
safety issues. So install a GFCI-protected outdoor outlet on the side facing
the neighbor, and all is well.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
Kenneth wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...<g>
>
> I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
> are unusual:
>
> The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
> of 7000KW.
>
> I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
> "standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
> is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
> capacity would just be money wasted.
>
> Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
> automatic) generator?
>
> Very sincere thanks,
7000 KW!!!???
The one's I've seen are in the 7 KW range.
http://www.guardiangenerators.com/Products/Residential/Guardian/GUARDIAN7kW.aspx
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
Kenneth,
I wonder if a solar or wind powered charger would be sufficient for the
battery backup on the sump pump. 15-20 hours is quite good by itself, then
add to that changing from solar power during the day...should be enough to
keep the sump pump running intermittely for a long time.
JAT
Skip
www.ShopFileR.com
"Kenneth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 23:06:14 GMT, [email protected] (Doug
> Miller) wrote:
>
>>In article <[email protected]>, Kenneth
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>Kenneth wrote:
>>[snip]
>>>>> I need something on the order of 5-10KW.
>>[snip]
>>>The units I have seen are in the 7KW range
>>
>>Seems to fit -- I'm not sure I see the problem here... <g>
>>
>>> and I need a small fraction of that.
>>
>>If all you really need to power is a sump pump and a small fan, then an
>>automatic backup unit seems to be overkill; is there a reason you can't
>>use,
>>say, a 1500-watt portable generator?
>>
>>Consider a sump pump with an alternative power source, too, such as
>>Basement
>>Watchdog or Ace in the Hole.
>
> Hi Doug,
>
> I could use a small generator... In fact, I have, but...
>
> We travel a fair amount, and living in rural New Hampshire,
> outages are not all that rare.
>
> We would be in trouble if we had an outage while we were
> away.
>
> Beyond that, the standard "battery backup" units for the
> sump pump seem to have a run time on the order of 15-20
> hours and I recall an ice storm in which we lost power for
> more than 96 hours.
>
> Thanks for your thoughts,
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
I'm not sure that their auto transfer switch units are available below 7kw,
but do a search for Cutler Hammer generators. They have partnered with
Briggs and Stratton, C-H handles the auto switching and the load center and
Briggs powers the generator, either natural gas or propane. Take a look at
this site, it might recommend a unit. Good Luck.
https://www.ch.cutler-hammer.com/generatorCalc/wattshow.jsp
"Kenneth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Howdy,
>
> Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...<g>
>
> I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
> are unusual:
>
> The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
> of 7000KW.
>
> I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
> "standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
> is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
> capacity would just be money wasted.
>
> Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
> automatic) generator?
>
> Very sincere thanks,
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
In article <[email protected]>, Kenneth <[email protected]> wrote:
>Hey, lighten up... I was only off by a factor of 1000...<BG>
I figured something went astray somewhere....
>
>The units I have seen are in the range of 7KW, and I need
>something on the order of 10-20% of that.
I don't think you're going to find an automatic unit much smaller than that,
to be quite honest -- maybe 5KW, but I can't imagine anybody making an
automatic unit as small as 700 watts.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
Kenneth wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:35:32 -0700, Doug Winterburn
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Kenneth wrote:
>>> Howdy,
>>>
>>> Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...<g>
>>>
>>> I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
>>> are unusual:
>>>
>>> The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
>>> of 7000KW.
>>>
>>> I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
>>> "standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
>>> is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
>>> capacity would just be money wasted.
>>>
>>> Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
>>> automatic) generator?
>>>
>>> Very sincere thanks,
>> Not sure about the automatic part, but Honda might have the answers.
>> They make damn good generators:
>>
>> http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/gencon.asp
>>
>> Also, I saw a water powered sump pump as backup on "This Old House"
>> several months ago. The house water supply pressure drove the thing
>> when the power was out for the regular sump pump. Wouldn't solve the
>> fan issue though - I'm guessing you're trying to prevent a possible
>> freezing problem? Do a google on "water powered sump pump" and you'll
>> get lots of sources.
>
> Hi Doug,
>
> Yes, freezing is (half) the issue.
>
> I have a second (unused) flue in our chimney and could
> easily install a gas heater using it, but...
>
> It is my understanding that those heaters must have
> electricity (to run the fan).
>
> The water powered sump pump confuses me though:
>
> If we had an extended outage, we would not have any water
> pressure (or at least would not have it for very long.)
>
> If I had electricity to pressurize our water supply, I would
> just use it to power the pump I now have (unless I am
> misinterpreting your comment about water pressure.)
>
> You will see other issues elsewhere in the thread.
>
> Sincere thanks,
I misunderstood - I thought the sump pump was to prevent flooding. It
sounds like the pump is for a well, not a sump? The water powered pumps
work if you have city water and therefore water pressure independent of
your power. They are a solution to prevent flooding of a basement for
example if the power is out for the electric sump pump.
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:55:15 -0500, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>The killers are the need for electric start so the thing can start
>automatically and for a UL approved transfer switch. You just don't
>find electric start on very small generators--in the low capacities
>they're made to be portable and adding electric start adds weight that
>reduces portability.
>
I found it kind of interesting that our cheap ($500) 5.5 Coleman generator has a
casting on it for an optional starter...
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:50:09 -0500, Kenneth <[email protected]>
wrote:
>>I researched this problem when we were living with a generator..
>>Most places suggested a Honda 5000 and optional control panel.. a lot of bucks,
>>but a sweet unit..
>Hi Mac,
>
>Am I correct that the unit you mention is not automatic?
>That is, it would not start on its own in the event of an
>outage.
>
>Thanks,
The generator doesn't, that's why they said to buy the optional control panel..
A neighbor here has one and the control panel is hard wired into his breaker
panel.. power goes off, the generator fires up..
He also plugs an automotive trickle charger into the generator to charge the
started battery whenever it's running..
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Panels....................$3000
> Batteries..................$800
> Inverter....................$500
> Misc hardware.........$500
>
> Total......................$4800
>
> Use $5000 as an estimate to achieve total independance from an
> unreliable supplier.
>
For that money, just to power a sump pump, I'd certainly go the route of a
Guardian standby generator. You can buy one heck of a whole house generator
for that kind of money. Keep a couple extra propane tanks around and switch
tanks over every 50 hours of runtime. Enjoy life as usual. I feed my whole
house on a simple 8,000 W gas generator, but it's not an automatic setup.
The Guardians are really nice units. I've installed several of them and one
of these days I'll put one in myself.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Was looking at one at Home Despot today--1 liter 2 cylinder
> engine--bigger engine than my motorcycle has and makes a fraction of
> the power--very, very conservative design IMO. And the smallest model
> is on clearance for under $2000 if you can find one in stock anywhere.
>
You don't need to find in stock. Just ask them to order it in for you - at
the clearance (is it really a reduced or a clearance) price. They will.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 07:53:15 -0800, mac davis
<[email protected]> wrote:
>We didn't do it, but the friend that went to the states for the generator was
>figuring about $100 for the starter, battery and battery holder..
>Another $10 for 50' of speaker wire and a door bell button for the "remote
>start".. ;-]
>
>
>mac
Hi Mac,
That is useful information, but as you would agree, the
capacity for a "remote start" is not the same as the
capacity for an "automatic start" (that is, a generator that
would start on its own in the event of an outage.)
All the best,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:04:55 -0500, Kenneth
<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
>>>"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
>>>is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
>>>capacity would just be money wasted.
>>
>>Actually, 5 to 10 KW *is* a standard residential backup unit.
>>7000KW is high-end industrial size.
>>
>>>Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
>>>automatic) generator?
>>
>>http://www.generac.com/Products/Residential/AirCooled/7KW.aspx
>
>Hello again,
>
>Hey, lighten up... I was only off by a factor of 1000...<BG>
>
>The units I have seen are in the range of 7KW, and I need
>something on the order of 10-20% of that.
>
>Thanks,
It would seem that the switching equipment required would far outweigh
the generator cost. Were you looking for natural gas? I would think
that would be hard to find in that size as would something with a
large enough fuel tank to make this an extended use item.
Not fully knowing your issue I would suggest considering a battery
system sized to run your items for the immediate term (a few hours at
best) supported with a standard portable generator that you would have
plenty of time to set up in the event of a power outage. However, if
this is for something that you are going to be absent from for days on
end this isn't going to be an answer, but neither is a non-natural gas
generator. If the battery system backed by a generator seems like a
possibility, then you might take it further and look into whether
capacitor banks exist that will run the pump and fan for the immediate
term (2 to 3 hours maybe?). I don't know if they make those for a
residential purpose, but I know that where I work we installed a
capacitor bank to run all of the site lighting (many street lights and
pole lights) for emergency egress of an 8,000 person stadium as it was
less expensive than a hard piped generator sufficeient for the same
use.
"Kenneth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> I am most appreciative of the information you provided...
>
> Based on what you have offered and other information I have,
> I suspect that we will move in the guardian direction
> shortly.
>
You won't be regretting that decision. Feel free to ask away with any
questions and now that we've discovered Greg O. in this thread, you should
look to him for some solid input. While I have some experience with these
things, Greg is clearly the more attuned one. He works with them every day
and he's also proven that he knows what he's talking about. Now - when it
comes time to paint that mother...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Kenneth wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...<g>
>
> I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
> are unusual:
>
> The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
> of 7000KW.
>
> I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
> "standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
> is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
> capacity would just be money wasted.
>
> Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
> automatic) generator?
Home Depot?
Try http://www.guardiangenerators.com/Default.aspx
7000 KW wouldn't be a residential unit, it would supply 200 amp
service to more than 100 houses.
>
> Very sincere thanks,
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Kenneth wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 07:51:38 -0800, mac davis
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:39:47 -0500, Kenneth
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Howdy,
>>>
>>> Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...<g>
>>>
>>> I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
>>> are unusual:
>>>
>>> The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
>>> of 7000KW.
>>>
>>> I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
>>> "standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
>>> is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
>>> capacity would just be money wasted.
>>>
>>> Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
>>> automatic) generator?
>>>
>>> Very sincere thanks,
>>
>> I researched this problem when we were living with a generator..
>> Most places suggested a Honda 5000 and optional control panel.. a
>> lot of bucks, but a sweet unit..
>>
>>
>> mac
>>
>> Please remove splinters before emailing
>
>
> Hi Mac,
>
> Am I correct that the unit you mention is not automatic?
> That is, it would not start on its own in the event of an
> outage.
I think your best bet is to just bite the bullet and get a 7KW
Guardian or the like.
You can get one of those for about $2200 and shipping and
installation. The lowest I can find a UL approved automatic transfer
switch switch and an electric-start portable for is aroune $1500 and
then you're going to have to rig a fuel supply and whatnot and by the
time you're done you'll likely be back up to that $2200.
The killers are the need for electric start so the thing can start
automatically and for a UL approved transfer switch. You just don't
find electric start on very small generators--in the low capacities
they're made to be portable and adding electric start adds weight that
reduces portability.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Skip Williams wrote:
> Kenneth,
>
> I wonder if a solar or wind powered charger would be sufficient for
> the battery backup on the sump pump. 15-20 hours is quite good by
> itself, then add to that changing from solar power during the
> day...should be enough to keep the sump pump running intermittely
> for
> a long time.
If his pump is cycling every 30 seconds and draws say 2 amps then
that's a 110 watt load---if it's winter then triple that because the
days are short and you've got 330 watts worth of collector required,
plus losses due to various inefficiencies. Not considering air mass
and average cloud cover at his location and suchlike, I'm pulling 500
watts out of my butt as a number. At the 8 bucks a watt that I'm
seeing in various places, that's $4000 worth of collector alone, then
you have to add inverter, batteries, etc.
>
> JAT
>
> Skip
> www.ShopFileR.com
>
>
> "Kenneth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 23:06:14 GMT, [email protected] (Doug
>> Miller) wrote:
>>
>>> In article <[email protected]>, Kenneth
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> Kenneth wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>>>>> I need something on the order of 5-10KW.
>>> [snip]
>>>> The units I have seen are in the 7KW range
>>>
>>> Seems to fit -- I'm not sure I see the problem here... <g>
>>>
>>>> and I need a small fraction of that.
>>>
>>> If all you really need to power is a sump pump and a small fan,
>>> then an automatic backup unit seems to be overkill; is there a
>>> reason you can't use,
>>> say, a 1500-watt portable generator?
>>>
>>> Consider a sump pump with an alternative power source, too, such
>>> as
>>> Basement
>>> Watchdog or Ace in the Hole.
>>
>> Hi Doug,
>>
>> I could use a small generator... In fact, I have, but...
>>
>> We travel a fair amount, and living in rural New Hampshire,
>> outages are not all that rare.
>>
>> We would be in trouble if we had an outage while we were
>> away.
>>
>> Beyond that, the standard "battery backup" units for the
>> sump pump seem to have a run time on the order of 15-20
>> hours and I recall an ice storm in which we lost power for
>> more than 96 hours.
>>
>> Thanks for your thoughts,
>> --
>> Kenneth
>>
>> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Doug Winterburn wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>> Skip Williams wrote:
>>> Kenneth,
>>>
>>> I wonder if a solar or wind powered charger would be sufficient
>>> for
>>> the battery backup on the sump pump. 15-20 hours is quite good by
>>> itself, then add to that changing from solar power during the
>>> day...should be enough to keep the sump pump running intermittely
>>> for
>>> a long time.
>>
>> If his pump is cycling every 30 seconds and draws say 2 amps then
>> that's a 110 watt load---if it's winter then triple that because
>> the
>> days are short and you've got 330 watts worth of collector
>> required,
>> plus losses due to various inefficiencies. Not considering air
>> mass
>> and average cloud cover at his location and suchlike, I'm pulling
>> 500
>> watts out of my butt as a number. At the 8 bucks a watt that I'm
>> seeing in various places, that's $4000 worth of collector alone,
>> then
>> you have to add inverter, batteries, etc.
>>
>
> If the sump pump is running almost continuously (cycling every 30
> seconds), it's beginning to sound like his money might be better
> spent
> on a backhoe, gravel and drain pipe...
He said that he had seen times when that happened, and also times when
he had had an outage for 96 hours--that makes for an engineering
spec--has to run the pump at 50% duty cycle for 96 hours plus whatever
margin one wants.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Skip Williams wrote:
> I dont think Kenneth said his pump was recycling every 30
> seconds..If
> it was, I would agree with the poster that said he needs to invest
> in
> a back hoe and some drain pipe.
>
> He said his pump would last on backup batteries for 15-20 hours. My
> thinking is that would be increased three fold if the batteries
> were
> recharged using solar cells during the day.
>
> IMOHO, I wouldnt trust a generator starting automtically and running
> while I was away if it was a critical application. Too many factors
> involved.
Quoting one of his posts:
"Hi Doug,
A battery backup and inverter is a possibility, but we have
had outages as long as four days, and also have had
situations in which our pump cycled on and off every thirty
seconds or so for a week.
If those two situations were to coincide, I would need quite
a pile of batteries to stay dry.
Sincere thanks, as before,
--
Kenneth"
Also he didn't say that his pump would last on backup batteries for
15-20 hours, he said that that was the rating of the backup devices he
has seen on the market, which might not last nearly that long on his
worst-case duty cycle.
> Skip
>
> www.ShopFileR.com
> -
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Skip Williams wrote:
>>> Kenneth,
>>>
>>> I wonder if a solar or wind powered charger would be sufficient
>>> for
>>> the battery backup on the sump pump. 15-20 hours is quite good by
>>> itself, then add to that changing from solar power during the
>>> day...should be enough to keep the sump pump running intermittely
>>> for
>>> a long time.
>>
>> If his pump is cycling every 30 seconds and draws say 2 amps then
>> that's a 110 watt load---if it's winter then triple that because
>> the
>> days are short and you've got 330 watts worth of collector
>> required,
>> plus losses due to various inefficiencies. Not considering air
>> mass
>> and average cloud cover at his location and suchlike, I'm pulling
>> 500
>> watts out of my butt as a number. At the 8 bucks a watt that I'm
>> seeing in various places, that's $4000 worth of collector alone,
>> then
>> you have to add inverter, batteries, etc.
>>
>>>
>>> JAT
>>>
>>> Skip
>>> www.ShopFileR.com
>>>
>>>
>>> "Kenneth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 23:06:14 GMT, [email protected] (Doug
>>>> Miller) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <[email protected]>, Kenneth
>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>> Kenneth wrote:
>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>>>> I need something on the order of 5-10KW.
>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>> The units I have seen are in the 7KW range
>>>>>
>>>>> Seems to fit -- I'm not sure I see the problem here... <g>
>>>>>
>>>>>> and I need a small fraction of that.
>>>>>
>>>>> If all you really need to power is a sump pump and a small fan,
>>>>> then an automatic backup unit seems to be overkill; is there a
>>>>> reason you can't use,
>>>>> say, a 1500-watt portable generator?
>>>>>
>>>>> Consider a sump pump with an alternative power source, too, such
>>>>> as
>>>>> Basement
>>>>> Watchdog or Ace in the Hole.
>>>>
>>>> Hi Doug,
>>>>
>>>> I could use a small generator... In fact, I have, but...
>>>>
>>>> We travel a fair amount, and living in rural New Hampshire,
>>>> outages are not all that rare.
>>>>
>>>> We would be in trouble if we had an outage while we were
>>>> away.
>>>>
>>>> Beyond that, the standard "battery backup" units for the
>>>> sump pump seem to have a run time on the order of 15-20
>>>> hours and I recall an ice storm in which we lost power for
>>>> more than 96 hours.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your thoughts,
>>>> --
>>>> Kenneth
>>>>
>>>> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
>>
>> --
>> --
>> --John
>> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
>> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
mac davis wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:55:15 -0500, "J. Clarke"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>> The killers are the need for electric start so the thing can start
>> automatically and for a UL approved transfer switch. You just
>> don't
>> find electric start on very small generators--in the low capacities
>> they're made to be portable and adding electric start adds weight
>> that reduces portability.
>>
> I found it kind of interesting that our cheap ($500) 5.5 Coleman
> generator has a casting on it for an optional starter...
But what does it end up costing once you've gotten the starter?
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Kenneth wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:09:38 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Panels....................$3000
>>> Batteries..................$800
>>> Inverter....................$500
>>> Misc hardware.........$500
>>>
>>> Total......................$4800
>>>
>>> Use $5000 as an estimate to achieve total independance from an
>>> unreliable supplier.
>>>
>>
>> For that money, just to power a sump pump, I'd certainly go the
>> route of a Guardian standby generator. You can buy one heck of a
>> whole house generator for that kind of money. Keep a couple extra
>> propane tanks around and switch tanks over every 50 hours of
>> runtime. Enjoy life as usual. I feed my whole house on a simple
>> 8,000 W gas generator, but it's not an automatic setup. The
>> Guardians are really nice units. I've installed several of them
>> and
>> one of these days I'll put one in myself.
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> I appreciate your comments about the Guardian stuff, and
> would welcome any further information you could offer based
> upon your experience with the units.
>
> For example, what might you know about ease of installation,
> trustworthiness of the unattended starting, durability, etc.
My neighbor has had one for about ten years now--every month it kicks
off its test cycle, never failed to start during an outage, never had
a problem with it. A friend of mine had one installed last year, had
an initial problem with a gas leak that IIRC was traced to a
manufacturing defect and fixed under warranty, but other than that
it's been dead reliable as well.
Installation requires that you (or whoever is doing the installation)
know wiring and gasfitting and it needs a place to sit, outdoors,
which is usually a concrete slab on the ground. It has its own load
panel that the circuits to be protected are wired into, the other end
goes to the meter or to a large breaker on the main panel, the load
panel contains the transfer switch. You really should have a licensed
electrician wire the panel--it's there to protect power company
employees from getting zapped by power fed back into the line, and if
you install it yourself and screw it up you're at risk for huge
liability. It's not that easy to screw up, but given some of the home
wiring jobs I've seen . . .
This isn't a lightweight unit--it's a big box that weighs over 300
pounds for the smallest one and doesn't disassemble to any significant
extent--you really should have the bed for it prepared before it
arrives so that you only have to move it once.
If there's a Home Depot near you they'll sell you the unit and deliver
and install it for you--they'll likely have at least one on display as
well so you can get an idea of what it looks like. Their prices
aren't bad either.
It needs regular maintenance--that means change the oil and the air
filter and whatnot like anything else powered by an engine--that's
typically once a year or after a prolonged outage. Whoever sells it
to you should offer you a contract where they do that for you and do
an annual inspection.
If you've got either natural gas piped in or a big LP tank for your
stove and/or heat then they'll plumb right in--on natural gas it runs
as long as the gas company keeps providing gas, on LP it runs until
the cylinder is empty--that's a good long time on a stationary tank
that gets filled from a truck--if it will run 50 hours on a portable
tank then it should run a month on one of those.
>
> Sincere thanks,
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
mac davis wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:43:48 -0500, "J. Clarke"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> mac davis wrote:
>>> On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:55:15 -0500, "J. Clarke"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> The killers are the need for electric start so the thing can
>>>> start
>>>> automatically and for a UL approved transfer switch. You just
>>>> don't
>>>> find electric start on very small generators--in the low
>>>> capacities
>>>> they're made to be portable and adding electric start adds weight
>>>> that reduces portability.
>>>>
>>> I found it kind of interesting that our cheap ($500) 5.5 Coleman
>>> generator has a casting on it for an optional starter...
>>
>> But what does it end up costing once you've gotten the starter?
>>
>> --
> We didn't do it, but the friend that went to the states for the
> generator was figuring about $100 for the starter, battery and
> battery holder..
> Another $10 for 50' of speaker wire and a door bell button for the
> "remote start".. ;-]
Which works if you don't need _automatic_ start.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Greg O wrote:
> "Art Greenberg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:21:39 -0500, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> [... snip stuff about Genrac ...]
>>
>> I've read elsewhere (alt.home.repair, IIRC) that there are two
>> lines
>> from Genrac. One with high speed shaft (3600rpm?) and one with low
>> speed (1800rpm?). Apparently the high speed units are very noisy
>> compared to the low speed units. As in "weak the dead" noisy. And
>> it
>> is this version that is offered by the borgs.
>>
>> Can you corroborate or refute that information?
>>
>> TIA.
>>
>> --
>> Art Greenberg
>> artg at eclipse dot net
>>
>
> Not really true. The RPM depends on the model. All the smaller air
> cooled units run at 3600 RPM, ALL OF THEM. Some of the liquid cooled
> units run at 3600 or 1800, some even run at 2300 RPM with a gear
> reduction between the engine and generator head. The reason for the
> difference in RPM is they will take a ~50 HP engine and run it at
> 1800 RPM to produce 20KW. Then turn around and use the same engine
> running at 3600 RPM to produce 25KW. That engine will not produce
> enough HP to run a 25KW unit at 1800 RPM.
> Some sizes do come in 1800 or 3600 RPM. It is not just a Home Depot
> deal. As A dealer we can order certain sized generators in either
> RPM, but the lower RPM units are from from the same "model". Generac
> builds "sound attenuated" units for customers that want quieter
> units, and are willing to speed more $$. Not a different line, just
> different models offered in the same line. Sort of like buying a
> Chevy Impala, or a Cadillac, or maybe a Corvette. Different models
> for different purposes, and prices.
> As for the noise, the 3600 RPM air cooled units are surprisingly
> quiet. If you sit the generator right next to the home you will hear
> it run, but turn on a TV, or a radio and you probably will not even
> notice it. And if you do notice the engine running, the noise gives
> you a warm fuzzy feeling knowing you are staying warm and secure,
> while your neighbors are panicking and getting ready to storm your
> house and take it over! ;-)
> Take some time and shop all you like.
> http://www.guardiangenerators.com/Products/Residential/Residential.aspx
> Greg
When the neighbor's is running and I'm outside I can hear it, but not
when I'm inside unless I'm in that end of the house and listening for
it.
Was looking at one at Home Despot today--1 liter 2 cylinder
engine--bigger engine than my motorcycle has and makes a fraction of
the power--very, very conservative design IMO. And the smallest model
is on clearance for under $2000 if you can find one in stock anywhere.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 14:37:06 -0500, Kenneth <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 07:53:15 -0800, mac davis
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>We didn't do it, but the friend that went to the states for the generator was
>>figuring about $100 for the starter, battery and battery holder..
>>Another $10 for 50' of speaker wire and a door bell button for the "remote
>>start".. ;-]
>>
>>
>>mac
>
>Hi Mac,
>
>That is useful information, but as you would agree, the
>capacity for a "remote start" is not the same as the
>capacity for an "automatic start" (that is, a generator that
>would start on its own in the event of an outage.)
>
>All the best,
For sure.. I was just answering someone's question about my cheapie generator
having a starter housing on it..
As a matter of fact, I'm glad that we kept the generator mobile, as a friend is
borrowing right now until THEY get electricity..lol
We were pretty lucky.. we got power within 3 months of moving into the house..
some folks have been waiting for a year or more..
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:39:47 -0500, Kenneth <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>Howdy,
>
>Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...<g>
>
>I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
>are unusual:
>
>The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
>of 7000KW.
>
>I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
>"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
>is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
>capacity would just be money wasted.
>
>Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
>automatic) generator?
>
>Very sincere thanks,
I researched this problem when we were living with a generator..
Most places suggested a Honda 5000 and optional control panel.. a lot of bucks,
but a sweet unit..
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:26:32 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Based on the loads above, you will have time to start eng-gen before
>the world ends.
Hi Lew,
When I am home, I can easily continue to do what I do now:
The power goes out (often ice storms, but about a week ago a
fellow drove into a pole), and I fire up my portable Honda
generator, connect it up, and rest easy.
The issue is that we are often away from our home...
I am trying to find a reasonable way to protect our place
from freezing, and flooding, in that situation.
I appreciate your comments,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
Kenneth wrote:
>
> I need to drive only a sump pump, and a small fan in a
> direct vent gas heater. The units I have seen are in the 7KW
> range, and I need a small fraction of that.
>
> Thanks to all for your comments,
The transfer switch arrangement would be cost prohibitive for such a
small load. Depending on the average run time required you may be able
to get away with battery back-up using an "Uninterruptable Power Supply"
(UPS). Check out Tripp-Lite's web site for an idea of the prices.
http://www.tripplite.com/products/ups/
I checked a one for a 700 Watt draw , 10 hour reserve at about $850.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:43:48 -0500, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>mac davis wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:55:15 -0500, "J. Clarke"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The killers are the need for electric start so the thing can start
>>> automatically and for a UL approved transfer switch. You just
>>> don't
>>> find electric start on very small generators--in the low capacities
>>> they're made to be portable and adding electric start adds weight
>>> that reduces portability.
>>>
>> I found it kind of interesting that our cheap ($500) 5.5 Coleman
>> generator has a casting on it for an optional starter...
>
>But what does it end up costing once you've gotten the starter?
>
>--
We didn't do it, but the friend that went to the states for the generator was
figuring about $100 for the starter, battery and battery holder..
Another $10 for 50' of speaker wire and a door bell button for the "remote
start".. ;-]
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
In article <[email protected]>, Kenneth <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Howdy,
>
>Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...<g>
>
>I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
>are unusual:
>
>The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
>of 7000KW.
???
7000KW = seven megawatts.
You might want to check that again... or quit looking at industrial equipment.
<g>
>I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
>"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
>is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
>capacity would just be money wasted.
Actually, 5 to 10 KW *is* a standard residential backup unit.
7000KW is high-end industrial size.
>Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
>automatic) generator?
http://www.generac.com/Products/Residential/AirCooled/7KW.aspx
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 22:54:10 GMT, [email protected] (Doug
Miller) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, Kenneth <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>Howdy,
>>
>>Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...<g>
>>
>>I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
>>are unusual:
>>
>>The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
>>of 7000KW.
>
>???
>
>7000KW = seven megawatts.
>
>You might want to check that again... or quit looking at industrial equipment.
><g>
>
>>I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
>>"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
>>is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
>>capacity would just be money wasted.
>
>Actually, 5 to 10 KW *is* a standard residential backup unit.
>7000KW is high-end industrial size.
>
>>Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
>>automatic) generator?
>
>http://www.generac.com/Products/Residential/AirCooled/7KW.aspx
Hello again,
Hey, lighten up... I was only off by a factor of 1000...<BG>
The units I have seen are in the range of 7KW, and I need
something on the order of 10-20% of that.
Thanks,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:04:14 -0700, Doug Winterburn
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Kenneth wrote:
>> On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:35:32 -0700, Doug Winterburn
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Kenneth wrote:
>>>> Howdy,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...<g>
>>>>
>>>> I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
>>>> are unusual:
>>>>
>>>> The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
>>>> of 7000KW.
>>>>
>>>> I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
>>>> "standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
>>>> is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
>>>> capacity would just be money wasted.
>>>>
>>>> Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
>>>> automatic) generator?
>>>>
>>>> Very sincere thanks,
>>> Not sure about the automatic part, but Honda might have the answers.
>>> They make damn good generators:
>>>
>>> http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/gencon.asp
>>>
>>> Also, I saw a water powered sump pump as backup on "This Old House"
>>> several months ago. The house water supply pressure drove the thing
>>> when the power was out for the regular sump pump. Wouldn't solve the
>>> fan issue though - I'm guessing you're trying to prevent a possible
>>> freezing problem? Do a google on "water powered sump pump" and you'll
>>> get lots of sources.
>>
>> Hi Doug,
>>
>> Yes, freezing is (half) the issue.
>>
>> I have a second (unused) flue in our chimney and could
>> easily install a gas heater using it, but...
>>
>> It is my understanding that those heaters must have
>> electricity (to run the fan).
>>
>> The water powered sump pump confuses me though:
>>
>> If we had an extended outage, we would not have any water
>> pressure (or at least would not have it for very long.)
>>
>> If I had electricity to pressurize our water supply, I would
>> just use it to power the pump I now have (unless I am
>> misinterpreting your comment about water pressure.)
>>
>> You will see other issues elsewhere in the thread.
>>
>> Sincere thanks,
>
>I misunderstood - I thought the sump pump was to prevent flooding. It
>sounds like the pump is for a well, not a sump? The water powered pumps
>work if you have city water and therefore water pressure independent of
>your power. They are a solution to prevent flooding of a basement for
>example if the power is out for the electric sump pump.
Hi again,
My desire for backup electric power IS for a sump pump, to
prevent flooding. I regret any confusion. We are in a rural
setting, and have our own well. So, no electricity means no
water pressure...
Thanks again,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 20:53:34 -0600, "Greg O"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>The 7KW Generac is as small as I know. I am reasonably sure no manufacturer
>bothers with any thing smaller. It gets to a point where the actual
>manufacturing costs are pretty much the same the smaller units. Say you
>could find a 4KW unit. Everything for the 4KW would pretty much be the same
>as the 7KW that is available. The cost for the smaller generator head and
>engine would only affect the manufacturing cost by a small margin. You still
>need a cabinet to put it all in, plus a transfer switch. My bet is the
>manufacturing cost would be $100 less than the available 7KW unit, so the
>manufacturer does not bother to build them. So you want to buy a 4KW for
>$1800, versus a 7KW for $2000? Buck up and buy the 7KW and put a few more
>circuits on the transfer, and enjoy!
>
>In another perspective, I work as a service tech for a company that sells
>standby Generac, standby generators. In 10 years we have never sold a unit
>less than 10KW. 10 years ago Generac built a 6KW unit. We had two in stock,
>and they sat in stock until my boss built a new home. He put both 6KW units
>on his home to get rid of them! There is virtually no market for the small
>units, in fact our main sellers are 13-16KW units.
>Greg
Hi again,
Many thanks to all...!
You have pointed me in useful directions,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:37:02 -0500, Dave Hall
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:04:55 -0500, Kenneth
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>>>I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
>>>>"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
>>>>is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
>>>>capacity would just be money wasted.
>>>
>>>Actually, 5 to 10 KW *is* a standard residential backup unit.
>>>7000KW is high-end industrial size.
>>>
>>>>Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
>>>>automatic) generator?
>>>
>>>http://www.generac.com/Products/Residential/AirCooled/7KW.aspx
>>
>>Hello again,
>>
>>Hey, lighten up... I was only off by a factor of 1000...<BG>
>>
>>The units I have seen are in the range of 7KW, and I need
>>something on the order of 10-20% of that.
>>
>>Thanks,
>
>It would seem that the switching equipment required would far outweigh
>the generator cost. Were you looking for natural gas? I would think
>that would be hard to find in that size as would something with a
>large enough fuel tank to make this an extended use item.
>
>Not fully knowing your issue I would suggest considering a battery
>system sized to run your items for the immediate term (a few hours at
>best) supported with a standard portable generator that you would have
>plenty of time to set up in the event of a power outage. However, if
>this is for something that you are going to be absent from for days on
>end this isn't going to be an answer, but neither is a non-natural gas
>generator. If the battery system backed by a generator seems like a
>possibility, then you might take it further and look into whether
>capacitor banks exist that will run the pump and fan for the immediate
>term (2 to 3 hours maybe?). I don't know if they make those for a
>residential purpose, but I know that where I work we installed a
>capacitor bank to run all of the site lighting (many street lights and
>pole lights) for emergency egress of an 8,000 person stadium as it was
>less expensive than a hard piped generator sufficeient for the same
>use.
Hi Dave,
I appreciate your thoughtful comments.
Please see my response to Doug.
The main issue I confront is time. We have had 4 day
outages, and were we away, we would be in a tough spot.
Thanks again,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 07:51:38 -0800, mac davis
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:39:47 -0500, Kenneth <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>Howdy,
>>
>>Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...<g>
>>
>>I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
>>are unusual:
>>
>>The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
>>of 7000KW.
>>
>>I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
>>"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
>>is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
>>capacity would just be money wasted.
>>
>>Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
>>automatic) generator?
>>
>>Very sincere thanks,
>
>I researched this problem when we were living with a generator..
>Most places suggested a Honda 5000 and optional control panel.. a lot of bucks,
>but a sweet unit..
>
>
>mac
>
>Please remove splinters before emailing
Hi Mac,
Am I correct that the unit you mention is not automatic?
That is, it would not start on its own in the event of an
outage.
Thanks,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:58:27 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>That should answer some of your questions - but may generate more. As away
>if you have others.
Hi Mike,
I am most appreciative of the information you provided...
Based on what you have offered and other information I have,
I suspect that we will move in the guardian direction
shortly.
All the best,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
J. Clarke wrote:
> Skip Williams wrote:
>> Kenneth,
>>
>> I wonder if a solar or wind powered charger would be sufficient for
>> the battery backup on the sump pump. 15-20 hours is quite good by
>> itself, then add to that changing from solar power during the
>> day...should be enough to keep the sump pump running intermittely
>> for
>> a long time.
>
> If his pump is cycling every 30 seconds and draws say 2 amps then
> that's a 110 watt load---if it's winter then triple that because the
> days are short and you've got 330 watts worth of collector required,
> plus losses due to various inefficiencies. Not considering air mass
> and average cloud cover at his location and suchlike, I'm pulling 500
> watts out of my butt as a number. At the 8 bucks a watt that I'm
> seeing in various places, that's $4000 worth of collector alone, then
> you have to add inverter, batteries, etc.
>
If the sump pump is running almost continuously (cycling every 30
seconds), it's beginning to sound like his money might be better spent
on a backhoe, gravel and drain pipe...
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:09:38 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>
>>
>> Panels....................$3000
>> Batteries..................$800
>> Inverter....................$500
>> Misc hardware.........$500
>>
>> Total......................$4800
>>
>> Use $5000 as an estimate to achieve total independance from an
>> unreliable supplier.
>>
>
>For that money, just to power a sump pump, I'd certainly go the route of a
>Guardian standby generator. You can buy one heck of a whole house generator
>for that kind of money. Keep a couple extra propane tanks around and switch
>tanks over every 50 hours of runtime. Enjoy life as usual. I feed my whole
>house on a simple 8,000 W gas generator, but it's not an automatic setup.
>The Guardians are really nice units. I've installed several of them and one
>of these days I'll put one in myself.
Hi Mike,
I appreciate your comments about the Guardian stuff, and
would welcome any further information you could offer based
upon your experience with the units.
For example, what might you know about ease of installation,
trustworthiness of the unattended starting, durability, etc.
Sincere thanks,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
"Kenneth" wrote
>
> Beyond that, the standard "battery backup" units for the
> sump pump seem to have a run time on the order of 15-20
> hours and I recall an ice storm in which we lost power for
> more than 96 hours.
>
To borrow from the endless threads on rebuilding battery packs for tools,
why couldn't you extend the on time of the sump pump with additional battery
packs?
In fact I knew somebody who used deep discharge marine batteries for
something like this. He got the batteries from a charter fishing service who
used them for trolling motors.
Just an idea. I am not sure how practical it would be in your situation.
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 22:27:58 GMT, Nova <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Kenneth wrote:
>> Howdy,
>>
>> Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...<g>
>>
>> I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
>> are unusual:
>>
>> The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
>> of 7000KW.
>>
>> I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
>> "standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
>> is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
>> capacity would just be money wasted.
>>
>> Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
>> automatic) generator?
>>
>> Very sincere thanks,
>
>7000 KW!!!???
>
>The one's I've seen are in the 7 KW range.
>
>http://www.guardiangenerators.com/Products/Residential/Guardian/GUARDIAN7kW.aspx
Hi again,
Indeed, my numbers were all screwed up... 'sorry.
I need to drive only a sump pump, and a small fan in a
direct vent gas heater. The units I have seen are in the 7KW
range, and I need a small fraction of that.
Thanks to all for your comments,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
I dont think Kenneth said his pump was recycling every 30 seconds..If it
was, I would agree with the poster that said he needs to invest in a back
hoe and some drain pipe.
He said his pump would last on backup batteries for 15-20 hours. My
thinking is that would be increased three fold if the batteries were
recharged using solar cells during the day.
IMOHO, I wouldnt trust a generator starting automtically and running while I
was away if it was a critical application. Too many factors involved.
Skip
www.ShopFileR.com
-
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Skip Williams wrote:
>> Kenneth,
>>
>> I wonder if a solar or wind powered charger would be sufficient for
>> the battery backup on the sump pump. 15-20 hours is quite good by
>> itself, then add to that changing from solar power during the
>> day...should be enough to keep the sump pump running intermittely
>> for
>> a long time.
>
> If his pump is cycling every 30 seconds and draws say 2 amps then
> that's a 110 watt load---if it's winter then triple that because the
> days are short and you've got 330 watts worth of collector required,
> plus losses due to various inefficiencies. Not considering air mass
> and average cloud cover at his location and suchlike, I'm pulling 500
> watts out of my butt as a number. At the 8 bucks a watt that I'm
> seeing in various places, that's $4000 worth of collector alone, then
> you have to add inverter, batteries, etc.
>
>>
>> JAT
>>
>> Skip
>> www.ShopFileR.com
>>
>>
>> "Kenneth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 23:06:14 GMT, [email protected] (Doug
>>> Miller) wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <[email protected]>, Kenneth
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> Kenneth wrote:
>>>> [snip]
>>>>>>> I need something on the order of 5-10KW.
>>>> [snip]
>>>>> The units I have seen are in the 7KW range
>>>>
>>>> Seems to fit -- I'm not sure I see the problem here... <g>
>>>>
>>>>> and I need a small fraction of that.
>>>>
>>>> If all you really need to power is a sump pump and a small fan,
>>>> then an automatic backup unit seems to be overkill; is there a
>>>> reason you can't use,
>>>> say, a 1500-watt portable generator?
>>>>
>>>> Consider a sump pump with an alternative power source, too, such
>>>> as
>>>> Basement
>>>> Watchdog or Ace in the Hole.
>>>
>>> Hi Doug,
>>>
>>> I could use a small generator... In fact, I have, but...
>>>
>>> We travel a fair amount, and living in rural New Hampshire,
>>> outages are not all that rare.
>>>
>>> We would be in trouble if we had an outage while we were
>>> away.
>>>
>>> Beyond that, the standard "battery backup" units for the
>>> sump pump seem to have a run time on the order of 15-20
>>> hours and I recall an ice storm in which we lost power for
>>> more than 96 hours.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your thoughts,
>>> --
>>> Kenneth
>>>
>>> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
>
> --
> --
> --John
> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
>
>
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:06:32 -0500, "Peter Bogiatzidis"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Kenneth,
>
>How about going for the smallest automatic generator that you can find and
>then allowing your neighbor to tap into it during a power failure, right
>after he checks your sump pump? That sounds like a win-win situation to me.
>
>Your neighbor may have to do some leg work at his house, but he should be
>able to run his circulating pump for heat, his well pump (assume he is on
>well water as you are), and maybe a light or two. Granted, not all at the
>same time, but it does offer him some incentive. Just a thought.
>
>Peter.
Hi Peter,
Indeed, it would be a win-win, but...
My closest neighbor is on the order of a half mile. If I
could afford that cord, I could afford a big automatic
generator!<g>
All the best, and thanks for thinking about it,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
Kenneth,
I wonder if an RV heater(s) would fit your needs. These are designed to run
on propane and have a 12v electrical system. You could use batteries
recharged with solar cells to keep the batteries going. The heater dosent
have to keep the place toasty warm...just above 32 degrees most of the time.
Skip
www.ShopFileR.com
"Kenneth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:35:32 -0700, Doug Winterburn
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Kenneth wrote:
>>> Howdy,
>>>
>>> Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...<g>
>>>
>>> I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
>>> are unusual:
>>>
>>> The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
>>> of 7000KW.
>>>
>>> I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
>>> "standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
>>> is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
>>> capacity would just be money wasted.
>>>
>>> Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
>>> automatic) generator?
>>>
>>> Very sincere thanks,
>>
>>Not sure about the automatic part, but Honda might have the answers.
>>They make damn good generators:
>>
>>http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/gencon.asp
>>
>>Also, I saw a water powered sump pump as backup on "This Old House"
>>several months ago. The house water supply pressure drove the thing
>>when the power was out for the regular sump pump. Wouldn't solve the
>>fan issue though - I'm guessing you're trying to prevent a possible
>>freezing problem? Do a google on "water powered sump pump" and you'll
>>get lots of sources.
>
> Hi Doug,
>
> Yes, freezing is (half) the issue.
>
> I have a second (unused) flue in our chimney and could
> easily install a gas heater using it, but...
>
> It is my understanding that those heaters must have
> electricity (to run the fan).
>
> The water powered sump pump confuses me though:
>
> If we had an extended outage, we would not have any water
> pressure (or at least would not have it for very long.)
>
> If I had electricity to pressurize our water supply, I would
> just use it to power the pump I now have (unless I am
> misinterpreting your comment about water pressure.)
>
> You will see other issues elsewhere in the thread.
>
> Sincere thanks,
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."