Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical quesiton.
GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately the
cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and attach
this to the romex in my junction box? I suspect the answer is no, but I
have to ask. If this is not acceptable, I think the next solution is to
install a new electrical outlet under the sink...
BTW, whoever installed the last one wasn't too A-R about it: there were
no "romex connectors" going into the junction box, coming out the
junction box, or going into the garbage disposal unit. *Scotch tape*
was used to cover the sharp edges on the knock-outs on the junction
box.... : (
Thank you,
Bill
Ground up makes much more sense except for habit expectations and the pins
are harder to line up due to lack of visibility.
"I can change. You can change. We all can change"
---------------
"Scott Lurndal" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Upside down is completely relative, with respect to standard duplex
receptacles. I've seen as many houses with them ground up, as ground
down, over 50 years. My current circa 1970 home has ground up, for
example. The electricians at work also install them ground up in the
computer rooms. I prefer ground up.
scott
-----------------
Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> writes:
>Some devices were designed to sit on the outlet and rely on gravity to
>push them against the wall. The outlet expander/surge protector is an
>example of this. With the device plugged in upside down, they're pulled
>away from the wall, which creates the situation the upside down outlets
>are trying to avoid.
On Sep 3, 4:40=A0pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical quesit=
on.
>
> GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. =A0Unfortunately th=
e
> cord does not seem to be removable. =A0Can I cut off the plug and attach
> this to the romex in my junction box? =A0I suspect the answer is no, but =
I
> have to ask. =A0If this is not acceptable, I think the next solution is t=
o
> install a new electrical outlet under the sink...
>
> BTW, whoever installed the last one wasn't too A-R about it: there were
> no "romex connectors" going into the junction box, coming out the
> junction box, or going into the garbage disposal unit. =A0*Scotch tape*
> was used to cover the sharp edges on the knock-outs on the junction
> box.... =A0: (
>
> Thank you,
> Bill
Put a receptacle under the sink, GFI if you want. Operate the GD with
a pneumatic switch which I bought from HD....on the same shelf as the
GD's.
The switch mounts in the countertop (3/4" hole, IIRC) next to the
tap... handy as a pocket on a shirt....as a bag of chips?....
They were al called GFI in the beginning. It's the same thing from different
companies.
----------------
"Steve Barker" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On 9/4/2011 9:53 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 09:42:52 -0500, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/74-300&t=1
>
> Thanks. One more question. I looked up GFI and GFCI. Is there a
> difference between these two or is it just the nomenclature one
> chooses to use?
it has nothing to do with 'choosing'. It is G F C I. GFI is wrong.
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
Yes, that makes more sense now.
I got a bad poke from a measuring tape behind a freezer once. I never
measure blind anymore.
------------------
"Puckdropper" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
The upside down outlet and certain devices actually create a greater
hazard because they were designed to go the other way. I once found a
polarized wall wart (I think it was a battery charger) that could pull
away from an outlet due to gravity. The outlet expander that sits on
one outlet, and covers the other has a tendency to pull loose if
installed upside down. (Various solutions have been tried: Adding a
plastic ground pin, screwing the device to the outlet.)
So, the point is that it's ironic that a method presumed to increase
safety of an unlikely situation actually creates the conditions for the
unlikely situation to occur.
Puckdropper
---------------
"m II" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> Ground pin is always the longest. Your point cannot likely happen.
>
> --------------------
> "Puckdropper" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> Some devices were designed to sit on the outlet and rely on gravity to
> push them against the wall. The outlet expander/surge protector is an
> example of this. With the device plugged in upside down, they're
> pulled away from the wall, which creates the situation the upside down
> outlets are trying to avoid.
>
> I do enjoy a little irony now and then. ;-)
>
> Puckdropper
>
In article <[email protected]>,
Doug Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
[ sneck ]
> ... That's not unheard of, you
>know: the Chicago electrical code, as I understand it, is *based* on the
>NEC,
Chicago Electrical code bears only a vague resemblance to the NEC. Most
jurisdictions cite a particular year of the NEC (or of the BOMA -- Building
Owners and Managers Association -- code, which incorporates by reference
the NFPA -- National Fire Prevention Association -- code, which incorporates
the NEC by reference) as 'base', and then add any additional jurisdiction-
specific rules.
The Chicago building code specifications for electric wiring does *NOT*
do that. Everything is specified directly in the local code. And the
code itself is a 'swamp'. I once had a 'difference of opinion' with
a building inspector over an electrical issue, and we spent a good
five minutes citing code 'exceptions' back and forth at each other.
Chicago code does -not- say 'this section rules _unless_ the exception
in xyz applies', it says "if this condition is met, then section xyx does
not apply". Chasing the applicable exceptions to a given section is a
challenge. And the section that contains an exception to the base-line
rule, may itself be subject to an 'exception' in a far-removed section
of the code. "lather, rinse, repeat" applies.
I eventually prevailed over the electrical inspector, having reverse-
engineered the code one step further than the inspector had. And he
'went away unhappy', having _not_ collected a payoff over the purported
'code violation'.
Chicago electrical code allows some things that are forbidden by NEC,
and forbids other things that are allowed by the NEC. There is a fair
amount of 'coincidental' overlap on the basics, but a *lot* of difference
in the 'details'.
On 9/4/2011 5:49 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 05:36:26 -0400, Bill<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> I installed the outlet and I'm getting a green light from the outlet
>> tester Swingman suggested that I get, so life is good. For the time
>> being, the switch for the garbage disposal will turn a lamp on and off.
>
> Can't find it in previous messages. What outlet tester did Swingman
> suggest you get?
Similar to this one:
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/74-300&t=1
When building a house, and during electrical trimout and inspections I
always carry one in my pocket.
Most inspector aren't going to accept that a receptacle requiring GFCI
is indeed that unless they can see it/hear it trip. Sometimes GFCI is
located on other floors (utility room for an outdoor circuit, ect) so
when they question, you have a ready means to answer.
Saves a lot of unnecessary questions, and helpful in trouble shooting
circuits also.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On 9/4/2011 4:36 AM, Bill wrote:
> Thanks for helping me out folks.
As you have no doubt noted, there is no such thing as a quick answer to
an electrical question on the wRec. Where one answer will suffice, you
will get a dozen of the same, adding nothing more but noise. :)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Sep 3, 4:40=A0pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
there were no "romex connectors" going into the junction box, coming
out the junction box, or going into the garbage disposal unit.
=A0*Scotch tape* was used to cover the sharp edges on the knock-outs on
the junction box.... =A0
Redo the electrical and install an outlet for the disposal. Assume the
previous "electrician" wired it to a wall switch above the sink - if
not, you should do so.
You can, of course, "hard-wire" the disposal to the junction box, but
installing a GFCI duplex outlet (or a standard outlet) would be much
better from a re-sale perspective. Anything a Home Inspector can
readily see should LOOK "right." Anything that doesn't gets flagged
and, then, you have to call a licensed electrician to "fix it" prior
to closing - no fun and expensive!
On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 11:14:52 -0400, tiredofspam <nospam.nospam.com>
wrote:
>I have my whole shop on GFI, I don't trip any on startup.
>GFI is specifically for ground fault.
>So if you are tripping them, either the gfi is bad or you have a problem
>with your end equipement / or wiring of the equipment.
Ok, one more question. What if it's just a two pronged plug (no ground
plug) as is the case with that fan in the bathroom that I mentioned?
Could a two pronged plug produce false GFI trips?
On 9/3/2011 5:13 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Sep 2011 16:46:50 -0500, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Putting in a plug receptacle will take you about the same amount of time
>> as it would to hardwire the GD.
>
> Considering it's locaton, should a garbage disposal use a GFI plug?
Not according to code in most locales _in a kitchen sink_. Put one
somewhere else and all bets are off.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Steve Barker wrote:
> On 9/5/2011 9:32 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
>> Yes, thats correct. Twisting alone is not allowed, and twisting with
>> wire nuts was rejected. Must be crimped... I was surprised. But I was
>> lucky, because that is how I wired the whole basement. And the
>> inspector was surprised I did it correctly. I asked whether the wire
>> nuts would pass and he said NO.
>>
>> On 9/5/2011 8:41 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> tiredofspam wrote:
>>>> Around my parts, grounds must be crimped together to join.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Is that to say that wire nutting grounds is not allowed?
>>>
>
> pretty sure wire nuts are perfectly acceptable in the NEC.
They are, but Tiredofspam has to be referencing a local jurisdiction
restriction, which can be, and often is more restrictive than the NEC.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 9/4/2011 5:06 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 9/4/2011 5:06 PM, Swingman wrote:
> Basically, it should be impossible by virtue of the plug
>configuration, by today's standards, to plug anything
> in that would be in violation.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
For the AR's ... that was intended to read "would be a danger".
Gotta be careful, in an electrical thread on the wRec, that you don't
start a fire!
:)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On 9/8/2011 7:26 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
> On 9/8/2011 2:03 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
>
>> And it was further explained to me by the local AHJ that if the outlet
>> was a SINGLE outlet (and they are available) for the sump only, (NOT A
>> DUPLEX OUTLET) that it would not have to be a gfci.
>
> That's not what the NEC says.
>
>
Well, either way, i wasn't about to seek out the "single" outlet, so i
installed the gfci, had the inspector do his re-check, then removed it
and put in a standard outlet. I will NOT run a gfci on a sump pump period.
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
> It's a disposal that runs for a few seconds a few times a day.
> It doesn't mean they should be scared out of doing an otherwise safe
> installation simply because the nec found a reason to advise against
> it.
>
> An example. Wall plugs are now installed "upside-down" apparently
> because of a new fear that a metal object could fall behind the plug
> which isn't fully plugged in and short the hot/neutral. This doesn't
> all of a sudden render all the plugs in my house unsafe, simple
> because there are still people in the world who can't seem to plug in
> their stuff all the way.
>
Some devices were designed to sit on the outlet and rely on gravity to
push them against the wall. The outlet expander/surge protector is an
example of this. With the device plugged in upside down, they're pulled
away from the wall, which creates the situation the upside down outlets
are trying to avoid.
I do enjoy a little irony now and then. ;-)
Puckdropper
John G <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> Yes they are.
> 1 For different applications ie Medical, domestic, Industrial etc.
> 2 There are different rules in ifferent jurisdictions and countries.
>
I'm not looking forward to the day you have to update the firmware in your
GFCI outlet.
Puckdropper
"m II" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> Ground pin is always the longest. Your point cannot likely happen.
>
> --------------------
> "Puckdropper" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> Some devices were designed to sit on the outlet and rely on gravity to
> push them against the wall. The outlet expander/surge protector is an
> example of this. With the device plugged in upside down, they're
> pulled away from the wall, which creates the situation the upside down
> outlets are trying to avoid.
>
> I do enjoy a little irony now and then. ;-)
>
> Puckdropper
>
The upside down outlet and certain devices actually create a greater
hazard because they were designed to go the other way. I once found a
polarized wall wart (I think it was a battery charger) that could pull
away from an outlet due to gravity. The outlet expander that sits on
one outlet, and covers the other has a tendency to pull loose if
installed upside down. (Various solutions have been tried: Adding a
plastic ground pin, screwing the device to the outlet.)
So, the point is that it's ironic that a method presumed to increase
safety of an unlikely situation actually creates the conditions for the
unlikely situation to occur.
Puckdropper
In article <[email protected]>,
-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I suspect the answer is no, but I
> > have to ask. If this is not acceptable, I think the next solution is to
> > install a new electrical outlet under the sink...
> >
> That is the better and maybe easier solution. GFCI outlet.
Wouldn't be allowed in the UK. Putting any kind of electrical outlet where
it might get wet, such as under a sink, is a definite no-no. GFCI, RCCD or
not.
The socket outlets are above the work-top and the cables brought up
through small holes at the back to the plugs.
--
Stuart Winsor
In article <[email protected]>,
HeyBub <[email protected]> wrote:
> Like the start-up of a 1HP motor?
Why should a 1hp motor trip a GCFI, its an earth fault current trip not a
current overload device.
--
Stuart Winsor
In article <[email protected]>,
Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Why should a 1hp motor trip a GCFI, its an earth fault current trip not a
> >current overload device.
> That's something I can't answer because my electrical knowledge is
> pretty limited. However, the small 8" desk fan I use in my bathroom
> which is plugged into a GFI outlet, occasionally trips the GFI when I
> turn the fan on. What could be the explanation for that?
It's faulty.
We moved into our present house in 1975 and a couple of years later
decided to have an electric shower fitted over the bath. The idea filled
me with a certain "unease" so we had what, in the UK, was then referred to
as an "Earth leakage circuit breaker" (ELCB) fitted by the supply
authority. (It sits on the house incomer between their fuse and the
consumer unit (Fuse box)). Back then these were very uncommon in fixed
domestic installations, though available, but are now mandatory on new
installations as they were then on "Mobile homes".
A while later we started getting occasional unexplained trips but as they
became more frequent we realised they were being caused by our electric
kettle. Clearly the internal insulation was beginning to fail or the seals
were failing allowing water to find its way into the wrong place somehow.
Once replaced the trips stopped.
I have a 2kW circular saw in the garage, it never causes any problem.
--
Stuart Winsor
In article <[email protected]>,
Doug Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
> *Anything* that
> causes those currents to differ by more than 20mA will
I've seen that figure quoted twice; it depends on the rating of the device.
The one on the incomer to our house, previously mentioned, is rated at
30mA. The one I use on my electronics workbench for equipment I am working
on is rated at 10mA
--
Stuart Winsor
tiredofspam wrote:
> Yes, thats correct. Twisting alone is not allowed, and twisting with
> wire nuts was rejected. Must be crimped... I was surprised. But I was
> lucky, because that is how I wired the whole basement. And the
> inspector was surprised I did it correctly. I asked whether the wire
> nuts would pass and he said NO.
>
Interesting. Where do you live? I've never heard of this one before. Has
to be a local jurisdiction thing.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Puckdropper wrote:
> John G <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> Yes they are.
>> 1 For different applications ie Medical, domestic, Industrial etc.
>> 2 There are different rules in ifferent jurisdictions and countries.
>>
>
> I'm not looking forward to the day you have to update the firmware in
> your GFCI outlet.
>
That won't be the bad day - the bad day will be when Automatic Update
becomes the method for those updates...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Sat, 03 Sep 2011 16:46:50 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>Putting in a plug receptacle will take you about the same amount of time
>as it would to hardwire the GD.
Considering it's locaton, should a garbage disposal use a GFI plug?
In article <[email protected]>,
Eric <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>"Doug Miller" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>On 9/5/2011 4:00 PM, Eric wrote:
>>
>>
>> "m II" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Dougy gets different water out of his garden hose than he puts in too! LOL
>>
>> Need some basic electrical theory there Dougy or STFU.
>> ------------------
>> "Doug Miller" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> Inductive loads such as those presented by electric motors put the
>> return current slightly out of phase with the supply current. If the
>> amplitude of the phase difference exceeds 20mA, the GFCI trips.
>>
>> ==================
>>
>> I would be sure Doug Miller was using an analogy and doesn't actually
>> believe currents could be different in a series circuit. Most electrical
>> people
>> should know better than that.
>>
>> Cut the guy some slack.
>>
>
>There *is* a slight phase delay when the circuit supplies an inductive
>load -- which means that during a time window measured in milliseconds
>the currents *are* different. That can be enough to trip a GFCI.
>
>Obviously, over anything but an extremely brief time period, the
>currents are exactly the same.
>
>Equally obviously, "m II" is in my killfile for good and valid reasons. :-)
>
>==============
>
>Sorry, but that "delay" theory is not correct.
"Those of you who think you know it all, are very annoying those who do."
>
>You may have this confused with inductance where an inductive coil
>electrical component exhibits a reluctance to current change.
>
>Remember "current" flows through an inductive component and never into one
>without returning to the source.
You know not that of which you speak.
There *is* energy in the magnetic field surrounding the inductor.
Just _where_ do you think that energy came from?
When power was applied some electricity went _into+ the device that did
_NOT_ come out as electricity *at*that*time*.
Similarly, when power is removed, some electricity comes out _after_ the
switch is opened. Just _where_ do you think that energy comes from?
hint, it is *stored* in the electromagnetic field.
> There will never be a difference in current
>in and out due to an inductive component or any component in an electrical
>circuit.
*snicker*
Just where do you think the 'back emf' comes from when power is suddenly
removed from an inductor?
>A changing voltage may create a phase lagged current through an inductor
>(coil) but not a current phase lagged to itself, whereby current enters a
>component but does not leave at. That would be impossible.
'Male bovine excrement' applies. You even stated one situation you call
'impossible'. To wit: 'A changing voltage through an inductor, may create a
phase-lagged current.' If you measure the *instantaneous* current _before_
and after the 'phase-shifting' device You *will* see different values.
Draw a sine-wave, measure the instantaneous (not 'peak', or 'mean) amplitude
at any given point during full cycle. Now measure the instantaneous amplitude
at a slightly different phase of the waveform. Unless the two points you
chose are symmetric around a maxima or minima of the waveform the
*INSTANTANEOUS* amplitude _will_ be different.
>This is not what makes GFCI units trip from fan motors. Current leakage
>faults to ground or other conductors causing a current "differential" (ANSI
>Standard C37.2 - 87) is the only trigger.
And a *transient* phase-shift within a device _can_ cause a sufficient
'instantaneous' current difference (measured on opposite sides of the
phase-shift) to trip an old-style GFCI.
On 9/3/2011 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
> Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
> quesiton.
>
> GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately the
> cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and attach
> this to the romex in my junction box? I suspect the answer is no, but I
> have to ask. If this is not acceptable, I think the next solution is to
> install a new electrical outlet under the sink...
>
>
> BTW, whoever installed the last one wasn't too A-R about it: there were
> no "romex connectors" going into the junction box, coming out the
> junction box, or going into the garbage disposal unit. *Scotch tape* was
> used to cover the sharp edges on the knock-outs on the junction box.... : (
>
> Thank you,
> Bill
>
Glad you weren't looking for a quick answer! LOL
On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 16:41:21 +0100, Stuart <[email protected]>
wrote:
>> occasionally trips the GFI when I turn the fan on.
>It's faulty.
Guess it might be. The fan has been in the bathroom for several years
so condensation could well have damaged the fan. I'll toss it just to
be safe. Thanks
On 9/4/2011 9:53 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 09:42:52 -0500, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/74-300&t=1
>
> Thanks. One more question. I looked up GFI and GFCI. Is there a
> difference between these two or is it just the nomenclature one
> chooses to use?
it has nothing to do with 'choosing'. It is G F C I. GFI is wrong.
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
On 9/4/2011 8:09 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 13:57:52 +0100, Stuart<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> Why should a 1hp motor trip a GCFI, its an earth fault current trip not a
>> current overload device.
>
> That's something I can't answer because my electrical knowledge is
> pretty limited. However, the small 8" desk fan I use in my bathroom
> which is plugged into a GFI outlet, occasionally trips the GFI when I
> turn the fan on. What could be the explanation for that?
motors will often trip GFCI's that is why they should never be used on
refrigerators, disposals, diswashers and sump pumps and the like.
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
On Mon, 05 Sep 2011 02:23:52 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:
>could also be the word "quick" offended some people who don't like to be
>told in advance how long a thread is going to be. Live and learn!
>Next time I'll try to do better.
Absolutely nothing for you to apologize about. That's the nature of
topics that are discussed here. If you had simply asked if you should
install a garbage disposal, the thread would probably have taken off
anyway. That's the nature of the beast when a similar group of diverse
intellects gets together in the same place.
tiredofspam wrote:
> Around my parts, grounds must be crimped together to join.
>
>
Is that to say that wire nutting grounds is not allowed?
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Bill wrote:
> Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
> quesiton.
> GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately
> the cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and
> attach this to the romex in my junction box? I suspect the answer is no,
> but I have to ask. If this is not acceptable, I think the next
> solution is to install a new electrical outlet under the sink...
>
>
> BTW, whoever installed the last one wasn't too A-R about it: there
> were no "romex connectors" going into the junction box, coming out the
> junction box, or going into the garbage disposal unit. *Scotch tape*
> was used to cover the sharp edges on the knock-outs on the junction
> box.... : (
>
Put in an electrical outlet ON the wall under the sink. It will make
installation of the NEXT garbage disposal easier.
On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 05:36:26 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I installed the outlet and I'm getting a green light from the outlet
>tester Swingman suggested that I get, so life is good. For the time
>being, the switch for the garbage disposal will turn a lamp on and off.
Can't find it in previous messages. What outlet tester did Swingman
suggest you get?
Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> writes:
>-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> It's a disposal that runs for a few seconds a few times a day.
>> It doesn't mean they should be scared out of doing an otherwise safe
>> installation simply because the nec found a reason to advise against
>> it.
>>
>> An example. Wall plugs are now installed "upside-down" apparently
>> because of a new fear that a metal object could fall behind the plug
>> which isn't fully plugged in and short the hot/neutral. This doesn't
>> all of a sudden render all the plugs in my house unsafe, simple
>> because there are still people in the world who can't seem to plug in
>> their stuff all the way.
>>
>
>Some devices were designed to sit on the outlet and rely on gravity to
>push them against the wall. The outlet expander/surge protector is an
>example of this. With the device plugged in upside down, they're pulled
>away from the wall, which creates the situation the upside down outlets
>are trying to avoid.
Upside down is completely relative, with respect to standard duplex
receptacles. I've seen as many houses with them ground up, as ground
down, over 50 years. My current circa 1970 home has ground up, for
example. The electricians at work also install them ground up in the
computer rooms. I prefer ground up.
scott
On 9/5/2011 7:07 AM, Nova wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 20:56:44 -0400, Doug Miller
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>>
>>> A garbage disposal is required to have a disconnectwhich the plug in
>>> meets code for a disposal.
>>
>> Yes, but so does a wall switch, as long as it's within sight. (2008 NEC,
>> Article 422.31(B))
>
> Would an inspector consider a wall switch to be "in sight" when you
> have you head inside the cupboard working on the disposal and the
> switch is above the counter?
I'd say yes, since that's the way MOST of them are wired.
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
On 9/6/2011 5:51 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
> On 9/5/2011 10:25 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
>> Well you are absolutely wrong.
>>
>> New code requires that the sump pump be plugged into a gfi.
>
> Only if it's in an unfinished basement (or unfinished portion of a
> basement), or a crawl space. And that's not new, either: that provision
> dates from the 2008 Code, maybe earlier.
>
>> So What do you say to that...
>
> I say, you're mistaken.
>
>> Any basement circuit requires it.
>
> Not true.
>
> GFCI protection is required *only* in unfinished basements and
> unfinished portions of partially finished basements:
>
> "...receptacles ... in the locations specified ... shall have
> ground-fault protection ... Unfinished basements -- for purposes of this
> section, unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of the
> basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas,
> work rooms, and the like ..." [2011 NEC, Article 210.8(A)(5)]
>>
>> I had an inspection recently and they were trying to ding me on that,
>> but my inspection was not related to that. And I argued, that when the
>> house was built that was what was called for.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/4/2011 11:44 PM, Steve Barker wrote:
>>> On 9/4/2011 8:09 AM, Dave wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 13:57:52 +0100, Stuart<[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Why should a 1hp motor trip a GCFI, its an earth fault current trip
>>>>> not a
>>>>> current overload device.
>>>>
>>>> That's something I can't answer because my electrical knowledge is
>>>> pretty limited. However, the small 8" desk fan I use in my bathroom
>>>> which is plugged into a GFI outlet, occasionally trips the GFI when I
>>>> turn the fan on. What could be the explanation for that?
>>>
>>> motors will often trip GFCI's that is why they should never be used on
>>> refrigerators, disposals, diswashers and sump pumps and the like.
>>>
>
And it was further explained to me by the local AHJ that if the outlet
was a SINGLE outlet (and they are available) for the sump only, (NOT A
DUPLEX OUTLET) that it would not have to be a gfci.
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
On 9/4/2011 10:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
> I have my whole shop on GFI, I don't trip any on startup.
> GFI is specifically for ground fault.
> So if you are tripping them, either the gfi is bad or you have a problem
> with your end equipement / or wiring of the equipment.
>
your gf"C" i is probably bad.
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
On 9/4/2011 10:35 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 11:14:52 -0400, tiredofspam<nospam.nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I have my whole shop on GFI, I don't trip any on startup.
>> GFI is specifically for ground fault.
>> So if you are tripping them, either the gfi is bad or you have a problem
>> with your end equipement / or wiring of the equipment.
>
> Ok, one more question. What if it's just a two pronged plug (no ground
> plug) as is the case with that fan in the bathroom that I mentioned?
> Could a two pronged plug produce false GFI trips?
yes, no ground is required for a gfci to function.
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
Around my parts, grounds must be crimped together to join.
On 9/4/2011 5:36 AM, Bill wrote:
> Thanks for helping me out folks.
>
> I installed the outlet and I'm getting a green light from the outlet
> tester Swingman suggested that I get, so life is good. For the time
> being, the switch for the garbage disposal will turn a lamp on and off. : )
>
> Splicing together three guage 12 ground wires under pitiful conditions
> seemed to be the hardest part. I think it was Mike M. who said last year
> that one can do it even if the wires are not straight. Gosh, I can't.
> But I did end up with a really nice-lookin' splice--and it was a good
> thing I did when I did, because wire was getting scarce : )
>
> The rest of the garbage disposal install should be like a piece-of-cake,
> or something else if you don't like cake.
>
> Bill
>
I have my whole shop on GFI, I don't trip any on startup.
GFI is specifically for ground fault.
So if you are tripping them, either the gfi is bad or you have a problem
with your end equipement / or wiring of the equipment.
On 9/4/2011 11:04 AM, Nova wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 09:30:29 -0400, "J. Clarke"<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> In article<[email protected]>,
>> [email protected] says...
>>>
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 9/3/11 6:46 PM, Dave wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 03 Sep 2011 18:36:23 -0400, -MIKE-<[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Interesting that it wouldn't be required given the likely potential
>>>>>> for leaks and water when people are under there repairing stuff.
>>>>>> Either way, I tend to go overboard with those things. I don't mind
>>>>>> the cost given their benefit.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just as long as you don't have to reset the damned thing three times
>>>>> a day eh?<g>
>>>>
>>>> If that's happening, there's definitely something wrong. :-)
>>>
>>> Like the start-up of a 1HP motor?
>>
>> That would trip a circuit breaker. If there's a ground fault at startup
>> something's wrong.
>>
>
> Due to the inductance of the windings of larger motors there is a
> slight delay in the current flow between the hot and neutral leads.
> This delay can cause a false trip of a GFCI.
You have a problem Dave.
Maybe a bad ground on the fan, water in the loc it is.
On 9/4/2011 9:09 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 13:57:52 +0100, Stuart<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> Why should a 1hp motor trip a GCFI, its an earth fault current trip not a
>> current overload device.
>
> That's something I can't answer because my electrical knowledge is
> pretty limited. However, the small 8" desk fan I use in my bathroom
> which is plugged into a GFI outlet, occasionally trips the GFI when I
> turn the fan on. What could be the explanation for that?
"Robert Bonomi" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> Well, when the wall switch that controls the disposer is 'off' there's
> *no* electicity down there, anyway. A 'ground fault' -- that a GFCI
> would catch -- is possible _only_ when the GD is powered.
What wall switch? Not every disposal has a wall switch. Mine is plugged into
a receptacle under the cabinet and the stopper is magnetic and controls an
internal switch.
To the OP, it is better to keep the plug end if possible. Makes taking it
out easier. You can make a very short cord to extend it if needed.
On 9/5/2011 9:25 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
> Well you are absolutely wrong.
>
> New code requires that the sump pump be plugged into a gfi.
> So What do you say to that...
> Any basement circuit requires it.
>
> I had an inspection recently and they were trying to ding me on that,
> but my inspection was not related to that. And I argued, that when the
> house was built that was what was called for.
>
I am not wrong in saying they should not be used on motors. It's been
proven that motors can cause false trips on gfci's.
Plus, very few AHJ's are on the "new" code. And _I_ for one will never
put a sump pump on a gfci. Code or not. And I'm not gonna look it up,
but i think you're wrong.
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
On 9/6/2011 1:54 AM, Morgans wrote:
> "tiredofspam" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> Yes, thats correct. Twisting alone is not allowed, and twisting with
> wire nuts was rejected. Must be crimped... I was surprised. But I was
> lucky, because that is how I wired the whole basement. And the inspector
> was surprised I did it correctly. I asked whether the wire nuts would
> pass and he said NO.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Some inspectors have their own strange interpretations of code.
and such people need to be challenged. Abuse of authority is not
acceptable.
>
> The code for ground (paraphrased) is that they have a mechanical
> connection. Wire nuts count. In fact, a special ground wire nut exists,
> called a "greenie". This has a hole so a wire can come out of the nut to
> be used to fasten to a device, or to a clip to ground a metal box.
>
> -- Jim in NC
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
On 9/5/2011 9:32 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
> Yes, thats correct. Twisting alone is not allowed, and twisting with
> wire nuts was rejected. Must be crimped... I was surprised. But I was
> lucky, because that is how I wired the whole basement. And the inspector
> was surprised I did it correctly. I asked whether the wire nuts would
> pass and he said NO.
>
> On 9/5/2011 8:41 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> tiredofspam wrote:
>>> Around my parts, grounds must be crimped together to join.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Is that to say that wire nutting grounds is not allowed?
>>
pretty sure wire nuts are perfectly acceptable in the NEC.
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
No, the neutral is still the ground.
BTW if you attach a meter to the hot and neutral you'll get voltage.
Attach the hot and ground and you'll get voltage.
My house was wired so that neutral and ground are one and the same...
My second box was not allowed by code to do that.
It had to have neutral and ground seperated...
No idea why, but that's code.
On 9/4/2011 11:35 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 11:14:52 -0400, tiredofspam<nospam.nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I have my whole shop on GFI, I don't trip any on startup.
>> GFI is specifically for ground fault.
>> So if you are tripping them, either the gfi is bad or you have a problem
>> with your end equipement / or wiring of the equipment.
>
> Ok, one more question. What if it's just a two pronged plug (no ground
> plug) as is the case with that fan in the bathroom that I mentioned?
> Could a two pronged plug produce false GFI trips?
On 9/4/2011 7:56 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>> A garbage disposal is required to have a disconnectwhich the plug in
>> meets code for a disposal.
>
> Yes, but so does a wall switch, as long as it's within sight. (2008 NEC,
> Article 422.31(B))
>
yes, and i have yet to see a wall switched disposal with the switch in
the next room. Mine are all hardwired.
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
On 9/4/2011 1:11 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>
> An example. Wall plugs are now installed "upside-down" apparently
> because of a new fear that a metal object could fall behind the plug
> which isn't fully plugged in and short the hot/neutral. This doesn't all
> of a sudden render all the plugs in my house unsafe, simple because
> there are still people in the world who can't seem to plug in their
> stuff all the way.
>
>
it's such a far fetched off the wall possibility, it's bullshit. NO
(repeat NO) outlet in my control will ever be ground up. it's just
wrong. And no, I don't have those asshole antisiphon garden hose
outlets either. too much restriction. I can fill a 5 gallon bucket in
less than 40 seconds with the 110 psi i have on my hose spigots, and i
intend to keep it that way.
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
On 9/4/2011 10:09 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 9/4/11 12:42 AM, Bill wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>
>>> A lot of things aren't code approved that would work perfectly fine.
>>>
>>
>> That's the standard that some contractors I've hired use. What's sad is
>> that their prices are higher than what perfect fine should really get
>> (IMO). When I hire something done by a professional, I don't expect it
>> to be done perfectly fine unless I'm offered a choice.
>>
>
> Great. Completely out of context, but I agree.
Some solutions are considered "perfect enough" ... an oxymoron if ever
there was. :)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On 9/4/2011 10:04 AM, Nova wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 09:30:29 -0400, "J. Clarke"<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> In article<[email protected]>,
>> [email protected] says...
>>>
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 9/3/11 6:46 PM, Dave wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 03 Sep 2011 18:36:23 -0400, -MIKE-<[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Interesting that it wouldn't be required given the likely potential
>>>>>> for leaks and water when people are under there repairing stuff.
>>>>>> Either way, I tend to go overboard with those things. I don't mind
>>>>>> the cost given their benefit.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just as long as you don't have to reset the damned thing three times
>>>>> a day eh?<g>
>>>>
>>>> If that's happening, there's definitely something wrong. :-)
>>>
>>> Like the start-up of a 1HP motor?
>>
>> That would trip a circuit breaker. If there's a ground fault at startup
>> something's wrong.
>>
>
> Due to the inductance of the windings of larger motors there is a
> slight delay in the current flow between the hot and neutral leads.
> This delay can cause a false trip of a GFCI.
In the early days of GFCI, even nearby electrical storms were
responsible for nuisance GFCI trips.
The advent of "hospital grade" GFCI devices advanced the quality of the
devices to where that is no longer the problem it once was, although it
still happens and is always something to consider.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> On 9/3/11 5:57 PM, Swingman wrote:
> > On 9/3/2011 4:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> >
> >>> have to ask. If this is not acceptable, I think the next solution is to
> >>> install a new electrical outlet under the sink...
> >>>
> >>
> >> That is the better and maybe easier solution. GFCI outlet.
> >
> > Personally, I don't know that I would go to the expense and trouble as
> > GFCI is not required under a kitchen sink for a garbage disposal by most
> > NEC versions being used that I'm aware, and it is not really necessary
> > in that application.
> >
> > YMMV ....
> >
>
> Interesting that it wouldn't be required given the likely potential for
> leaks and water when people are under there repairing stuff. Either way,
> I tend to go overboard with those things. I don't mind the cost given
> their benefit.
The sink is pretty thoroughly grounded in most residences.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> "J. Clarke" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> The sink is pretty thoroughly grounded in most residences.
>
> =====
>
> No ground on my sink via the ABS drain pipes or the PEX supply tubes either.
Then it's grounded though the water in the pipes. And the ground wire
to the disposal.
To get a shock you need a voltage _difference_. Not gonna happen with a
garbage disposal full of water.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> Doug Miller wrote:
> > On 9/3/2011 5:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> >> On 9/3/11 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
> >>> Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
> >>> quesiton.
> >>>
> >>> GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately the
> >>> cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and attach
> >>> this to the romex in my junction box?
> >>
> >> Short answer: yes. As long as the romex wire is copper and not aluminum.
> >
> > Sorry, that's *not* correct: flexible cord is not Code-approved for
> > permanent connection to the wiring system except under limited
> > circumstances that do not pertain here.
>
> I'm surprised it is allowed to use a flexible cord which, because of the
> nature of the device, has such a high probability of laying in water at
> some point if the 36" cord is merely plugged in. I won't let the cord
> rest on the bottom surface.
>
> Admittedly, the cord appears to be of very good quality. Surely it is
> waterproof unless it cracks.
If it's plugged in the electrical code does not apply. Code stops at
the outlet. Fire code or other codes may apply but not the electrical
code. I don't know why people have so much trouble with this.
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> -MIKE- wrote:
> > On 9/3/11 6:46 PM, Dave wrote:
> >> On Sat, 03 Sep 2011 18:36:23 -0400, -MIKE-<[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >>> Interesting that it wouldn't be required given the likely potential
> >>> for leaks and water when people are under there repairing stuff.
> >>> Either way, I tend to go overboard with those things. I don't mind
> >>> the cost given their benefit.
> >>
> >> Just as long as you don't have to reset the damned thing three times
> >> a day eh?<g>
> >
> > If that's happening, there's definitely something wrong. :-)
>
> Like the start-up of a 1HP motor?
That would trip a circuit breaker. If there's a ground fault at startup
something's wrong.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> "J. Clarke" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
> >
> > "J. Clarke" wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> > The sink is pretty thoroughly grounded in most residences.
> >
> > =====
> >
> > No ground on my sink via the ABS drain pipes or the PEX supply tubes
> > either.
>
> Then it's grounded though the water in the pipes. And the ground wire
> to the disposal.
>
> To get a shock you need a voltage _difference_. Not gonna happen with a
> garbage disposal full of water.
>
> ==================
> Geeeez! I hope you don't actually believe that one.
> Water is not a good or reliable ground. Pure water is a complete insulator.
>
> Not acceptable, not safe and will not pass the safety requirement in any
> code (use of water for ground). Copper pipes can make good conductors but
> not to be relied on in most cases.
If the water is a good enough conductor for you to get injured through
it then it's good enough to keep the sink and disposal at ground
potential.
This isn't the radio in the bathtub scenario. The current source is
buried deep in the guts of the disposal and the shortest path is going
to be inside the disposal, not through the water in the sink that is
likely to shock you.
But you go on being afraid of garbage disposals. The rest of us have
lives.
Ground pin is always the longest. Your point cannot likely happen.
--------------------
"Puckdropper" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Some devices were designed to sit on the outlet and rely on gravity to
push them against the wall. The outlet expander/surge protector is an
example of this. With the device plugged in upside down, they're pulled
away from the wall, which creates the situation the upside down outlets
are trying to avoid.
I do enjoy a little irony now and then. ;-)
Puckdropper
In article <[email protected]>,
Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sat, 03 Sep 2011 16:46:50 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Putting in a plug receptacle will take you about the same amount of time
>>as it would to hardwire the GD.
>
>Considering it's locaton, should a garbage disposal use a GFI plug?
As long as the outlet is -under_ the sink/counter, in a cabinet housing,
a GFCI is not required by current (pun intended) U.S. National Electrical
Code. YMMV in other jurisdictions.
Note: If you have an 'open' sink -- say, wall-mount, or 'pedestal', all
bets are off.
On 9/3/2011 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
> Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
> quesiton.
>
> GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately the
> cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and attach
> this to the romex in my junction box? I suspect the answer is no, but I
> have to ask. If this is not acceptable, I think the next solution is to
> install a new electrical outlet under the sink...
>
>
> BTW, whoever installed the last one wasn't too A-R about it: there were
> no "romex connectors" going into the junction box, coming out the
> junction box, or going into the garbage disposal unit. *Scotch tape* was
> used to cover the sharp edges on the knock-outs on the junction box.... : (
It's usually that way for a good reason ... GD's are usually plugged
into a switched receptacle, located _under_ the counter top, so that you
can turn them on and off on at a switch somewhere _above_ the counter
top ... much more convenient and safe.
You don't want to have to open the cabinet door reach and reach under
the sink to turn the GD off and on.
Putting in a plug receptacle will take you about the same amount of time
as it would to hardwire the GD.
Do it, it makes more sense in the long run.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Steve Barker <[email protected]> writes:
>On 9/6/2011 1:54 AM, Morgans wrote:
>> "tiredofspam" wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Yes, thats correct. Twisting alone is not allowed, and twisting with
>> wire nuts was rejected. Must be crimped... I was surprised. But I was
>> lucky, because that is how I wired the whole basement. And the inspector
>> was surprised I did it correctly. I asked whether the wire nuts would
>> pass and he said NO.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> Some inspectors have their own strange interpretations of code.
>
>and such people need to be challenged. Abuse of authority is not
>acceptable.
Some localities have restrictions above and beyond the NEC, for example
metro Chicago & EMT.
scott
On 9/4/2011 4:00 PM, Bill wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>> As you have no doubt noted, there is no such thing as a quick answer to
>> an electrical question on the wRec. Where one answer will suffice, you
>> will get a dozen of the same, adding nothing more but noise. :)
>>
>
> One man's noise is another man's music.
How's that "music" now, Bill?
And the day ain't even over! LOL
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Neutral and ground are the same thing at only one point in your house. A
second box in the same building with neutral connected to ground would
violate that safety rule.
Neutral carries current during load. Ground should never carry anything in
your house. Two ground points can cause the ground wire to share load and
cause many different problems. Simple example: You don't want current
flowing through your tub frame to the taps when you are standing in it.
--------------
"tiredofspam" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
No, the neutral is still the ground.
BTW if you attach a meter to the hot and neutral you'll get voltage.
Attach the hot and ground and you'll get voltage.
My house was wired so that neutral and ground are one and the same...
My second box was not allowed by code to do that.
It had to have neutral and ground seperated...
No idea why, but that's code.
On 9/4/2011 11:35 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 11:14:52 -0400, tiredofspam<nospam.nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I have my whole shop on GFI, I don't trip any on startup.
>> GFI is specifically for ground fault.
>> So if you are tripping them, either the gfi is bad or you have a problem
>> with your end equipement / or wiring of the equipment.
>
> Ok, one more question. What if it's just a two pronged plug (no ground
> plug) as is the case with that fan in the bathroom that I mentioned?
> Could a two pronged plug produce false GFI trips?
On 9/3/2011 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
> Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
> quesiton.
>
> GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately the
> cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and attach
> this to the romex in my junction box? I suspect the answer is no, but I
> have to ask. If this is not acceptable, I think the next solution is to
> install a new electrical outlet under the sink...
>
>
> BTW, whoever installed the last one wasn't too A-R about it: there were
> no "romex connectors" going into the junction box, coming out the
> junction box, or going into the garbage disposal unit. *Scotch tape* was
> used to cover the sharp edges on the knock-outs on the junction box.... : (
>
> Thank you,
> Bill
>
why not just set an outlet in the box, plug it in and be done?
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
On 9/6/2011 2:40 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 9/3/2011 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
>> Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
>> quesiton.
>>
>> GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately the
>> cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and attach
>> this to the romex in my junction box? I suspect the answer is no, but I
>> have to ask. If this is not acceptable, I think the next solution is to
>> install a new electrical outlet under the sink...
>>
>>
>> BTW, whoever installed the last one wasn't too A-R about it: there were
>> no "romex connectors" going into the junction box, coming out the
>> junction box, or going into the garbage disposal unit. *Scotch tape* was
>> used to cover the sharp edges on the knock-outs on the junction
>> box.... : (
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Bill
>>
>
>
> Glad you weren't looking for a quick answer! LOL
Hell, he got the correct answer on the second _reply_ at 4:46 PM.
Nothing further was needed on the original question ... and for the GFCI
question, eleven minutes later at 4:57 PM. :)
http://www.craftkb.com/Uwe/Threads/List.aspx/woodworking/55377/Quick-Electrial-Question
Everything since is either echoes, or noise. :)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
Eric wrote:
>
>
> "Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Gosh, and I almost didn't post my "quick question".
> It's hard to guess what will capture peoples' interest. But I think if a
> thread has a lot of potential energy in it (like a good application of
> gravity, chickens, a catapult, gun powder, and/or electricity), that
> probably adds to its attractiveness to me and to many other like-minded
> overaged juvenile-delinquent's here! : )
>
> ========
>
> You mean there was a question put forth?
> LOL
>
> You do "stir-the-pot" here and make a lot of people think hard or
> research subjects.
Gosh, I'm just the type that likes to ask questions, while others
here really have the answers. But thank you.
> Some may hate the "noise" but it is good for most.
>
>
> --
>
======
Boys and their toys!!!
--
Eric
> Eric
Yes, thats correct. Twisting alone is not allowed, and twisting with
wire nuts was rejected. Must be crimped... I was surprised. But I was
lucky, because that is how I wired the whole basement. And the inspector
was surprised I did it correctly. I asked whether the wire nuts would
pass and he said NO.
On 9/5/2011 8:41 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> tiredofspam wrote:
>> Around my parts, grounds must be crimped together to join.
>>
>>
>
> Is that to say that wire nutting grounds is not allowed?
>
Well you are absolutely wrong.
New code requires that the sump pump be plugged into a gfi.
So What do you say to that...
Any basement circuit requires it.
I had an inspection recently and they were trying to ding me on that,
but my inspection was not related to that. And I argued, that when the
house was built that was what was called for.
On 9/4/2011 11:44 PM, Steve Barker wrote:
> On 9/4/2011 8:09 AM, Dave wrote:
>> On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 13:57:52 +0100, Stuart<[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>> Why should a 1hp motor trip a GCFI, its an earth fault current trip
>>> not a
>>> current overload device.
>>
>> That's something I can't answer because my electrical knowledge is
>> pretty limited. However, the small 8" desk fan I use in my bathroom
>> which is plugged into a GFI outlet, occasionally trips the GFI when I
>> turn the fan on. What could be the explanation for that?
>
> motors will often trip GFCI's that is why they should never be used on
> refrigerators, disposals, diswashers and sump pumps and the like.
>
After serious thinking Eric wrote :
>
> "Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
> "Robert Bonomi" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>>
>> Well, when the wall switch that controls the disposer is 'off' there's
>> *no* electicity down there, anyway. A 'ground fault' -- that a GFCI
>> would catch -- is possible _only_ when the GD is powered.
>
> What wall switch? Not every disposal has a wall switch. Mine is plugged into
> a receptacle under the cabinet and the stopper is magnetic and controls an
> internal switch.
>
> To the OP, it is better to keep the plug end if possible. Makes taking it
> out easier. You can make a very short cord to extend it if needed.
>
> ============
>
> Without a real switch on the unit you may want to unplug the beast when you
> have to get your hand down it's throat and pull out some string to untangle
> the jam in there.
Jam (Oh! Jello)goes down very easily. :-)
--
John G.
On 9/4/2011 4:00 PM, Bill wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>> On 9/4/2011 4:36 AM, Bill wrote:
>>> Thanks for helping me out folks.
>>
>> As you have no doubt noted, there is no such thing as a quick answer to
>> an electrical question on the wRec. Where one answer will suffice, you
>> will get a dozen of the same, adding nothing more but noise. :)
>>
>
> One man's noise is another man's music. You carry around an outlet
> tester and speak with inspectors in the course of your work. I do not
> have the same background. I learned more than 1 or 2 useful things and
> also received a valuable suggestion to check the wiring of my switch!
>
> Please don't let my posts cause you any aggravation.
Where do you see "aggravation" exhibited? AMMOF, do you not know what "
:) " is?
As for the noise, stick around ... this is an electrical thread on the
wRec. As such it stands a historical chance of still being alive weeks
from now.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 00:34:26 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Doug Miller wrote:
>> On 9/3/2011 5:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 9/3/11 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
>>>> quesiton.
>>>>
>>>> GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately the
>>>> cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and attach
>>>> this to the romex in my junction box?
>>>
>>> Short answer: yes. As long as the romex wire is copper and not aluminum.
>>
>> Sorry, that's *not* correct: flexible cord is not Code-approved for
>> permanent connection to the wiring system except under limited
>> circumstances that do not pertain here.
>
>I'm surprised it is allowed to use a flexible cord which, because of the
>nature of the device, has such a high probability of laying in water at
>some point if the 36" cord is merely plugged in. I won't let the cord
>rest on the bottom surface.
>
>Admittedly, the cord appears to be of very good quality. Surely it is
>waterproof unless it cracks.
A garbage disposal is required to have a disconnect which the plug in
meets code for a disposal.
Mike M
-MIKE- wrote:
> I don't know where this is going, but I'm assuming GFCI outlets are
> rated for different current loads and applications, just like standard
> outlets.
Yes, there are various current ratings for GFCI's, but that does not apply
to this thread. Regardless of the current rating, a GFCI is not an
over-current protection device. It does not trip based on the amount of
heat it experiences.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 9/4/2011 9:53 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 09:42:52 -0500, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/74-300&t=1
>
> Thanks. One more question. I looked up GFI and GFCI. Is there a
> difference between these two or is it just the nomenclature one
> chooses to use?
No differences: "Ground Fault Interrupter" vs "Ground Fault Circuit
Interrupter".
Otherwise know as an RCD "Residual Current Device", I believe other
countries may have other names for them.
Recently there is another device that is now required by code in
bedrooms in the many US locales, the AFCI "Arc Fault Circuit
Interrupter" ... in the form of an AFCI c'bkr in the service panel. One
of the big reasons for this requirement is the recent proliferations of
ceiling fans placed in bedroom on lighting circuits, not all properly
installed as a retrofit.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 13:57:52 +0100, Stuart <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> Why should a 1hp motor trip a GCFI, its an earth fault current trip
>> not a current overload device.
>
> That's something I can't answer because my electrical knowledge is
> pretty limited. However, the small 8" desk fan I use in my bathroom
> which is plugged into a GFI outlet, occasionally trips the GFI when I
> turn the fan on. What could be the explanation for that?
Voltage leak.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Stuart wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> HeyBub <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Like the start-up of a 1HP motor?
>
> Why should a 1hp motor trip a GCFI, its an earth fault current trip
> not a current overload device.
For the same reason putting a refrigerator on a GFCI circuit is discouraged.
I think it has something to do with voodoo.
On Sep 3, 4:40=A0pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical quesit=
on.
>
> GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. =A0Unfortunately th=
e
> cord does not seem to be removable. =A0Can I cut off the plug and attach
> this to the romex in my junction box? =A0I suspect the answer is no, but =
I
> have to ask. =A0If this is not acceptable, I think the next solution is t=
o
> install a new electrical outlet under the sink...
>
> BTW, whoever installed the last one wasn't too A-R about it: there were
> no "romex connectors" going into the junction box, coming out the
> junction box, or going into the garbage disposal unit. =A0*Scotch tape*
> was used to cover the sharp edges on the knock-outs on the junction
> box.... =A0: (
>
> Thank you,
> Bill
Put in a receptacle with GFI if you wish, high up in the sink cabinet
and use one of these.
http://faucets.efaucets.com/faucets/Garbage%20Disposal%20Air%20Switch
On 9/3/2011 4:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> have to ask. If this is not acceptable, I think the next solution is to
>> install a new electrical outlet under the sink...
>>
>
> That is the better and maybe easier solution. GFCI outlet.
Personally, I don't know that I would go to the expense and trouble as
GFCI is not required under a kitchen sink for a garbage disposal by most
NEC versions being used that I'm aware, and it is not really necessary
in that application.
YMMV ....
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On 9/6/2011 10:44 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> ...or is making up his own rules as he goes along. BTDT.
>
> <...>
this is the most likely option . And he needs to be challenged. There
IS an appeals process and a committee.
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
On Tue, 06 Sep 2011 22:46:05 -0400, Doug Miller
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On 9/6/2011 10:34 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
>> Again, tell that to my local inspector. GFCI's were required in my
>> finished basement. Every outlet had to be on a protected ckt.
>
>One of two things, then: either you live in a jurisdiction that has
>adopted more stringent rules than those specified by the NEC, or your
>local inspector doesn't know or doesn't understand the NEC.
...or is making up his own rules as he goes along. BTDT.
<...>
On 9/6/2011 11:44 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Tue, 06 Sep 2011 22:46:05 -0400, Doug Miller
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 9/6/2011 10:34 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
>>> Again, tell that to my local inspector. GFCI's were required in my
>>> finished basement. Every outlet had to be on a protected ckt.
>>
>> One of two things, then: either you live in a jurisdiction that has
>> adopted more stringent rules than those specified by the NEC, or your
>> local inspector doesn't know or doesn't understand the NEC.
>
> ...or is making up his own rules as he goes along. BTDT.
>
Well, I was trying to be nice... but yeah, that can happen too. Still
(IMHO) falls into the category of "doesn't know or doesn't understand
the NEC", though.
-MIKE- wrote:
> On 9/3/11 6:46 PM, Dave wrote:
>> On Sat, 03 Sep 2011 18:36:23 -0400, -MIKE-<[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>> Interesting that it wouldn't be required given the likely potential
>>> for leaks and water when people are under there repairing stuff.
>>> Either way, I tend to go overboard with those things. I don't mind
>>> the cost given their benefit.
>>
>> Just as long as you don't have to reset the damned thing three times
>> a day eh?<g>
>
> If that's happening, there's definitely something wrong. :-)
Like the start-up of a 1HP motor?
Mikey posted it first!
"Doug Miller" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
On 9/4/2011 3:24 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 9/4/11 2:21 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>> On 9/4/2011 2:11 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 9/4/11 12:19 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>>> On 9/4/2011 12:35 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 9/3/11 11:47 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/3/2011 5:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 9/3/11 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>> Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
>>>>>>>> quesiton.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and
>>>>>>>> attach
>>>>>>>> this to the romex in my junction box?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Short answer: yes. As long as the romex wire is copper and not
>>>>>>> aluminum.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, that's *not* correct: flexible cord is not Code-approved for
>>>>>> permanent connection to the wiring system except under limited
>>>>>> circumstances that do not pertain here.
>>>>>
>>>>> A lot of things aren't code approved that would work perfectly fine.
>>>>
>>>> That doesn't mean you should do them -- or advise others to.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's a disposal that runs for a few seconds a few times a day.
>>> It doesn't mean they should be scared out of doing an otherwise safe
>>> installation simply because the nec found a reason to advise against it.
>>
>> Perhaps you'd care to discuss the tests you've conducted, and your
>> qualifications for evaluating the results, that enable you to describe
>> with such certainty as a "safe installation" something that the NFPA has
>> decided is *not* safe.
>>
>
> Many of my electrical engineer friends, including my good friend and
> neighbor who's worked for AEP for 20 years, will admit and lament that
> quite a few nec requirements are overkill and based more on fear... and
> fear of lawsuits... than actual safety and good sense. Theirs is the
> experience qualifications by which I expressed my opinion and advice for
> this one, limited and specific situation.
Just the same, I don't imagine that they knowingly advise anyone to
violate the NEC.
>
> There are many safety techniques prescribed by osha that many an
> experienced and skilled woodworker simply ignore because they are
> pretty silly and only in place to keep Darwinism in check. :-)
>
>
>> In any event, it's a silly thing to do. Installing a duplex receptacle
>> is easier, *and* complies with the Code.
>
> Installing a receptacle was my advice.
>
And mine.
On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 20:56:44 -0400, Doug Miller
<[email protected]> wrote:
<snip>
>>
>> A garbage disposal is required to have a disconnectwhich the plug in
>> meets code for a disposal.
>
>Yes, but so does a wall switch, as long as it's within sight. (2008 NEC,
>Article 422.31(B))
Would an inspector consider a wall switch to be "in sight" when you
have you head inside the cupboard working on the disposal and the
switch is above the counter?
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 13:57:52 +0100, Stuart <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Why should a 1hp motor trip a GCFI, its an earth fault current trip not a
>current overload device.
That's something I can't answer because my electrical knowledge is
pretty limited. However, the small 8" desk fan I use in my bathroom
which is plugged into a GFI outlet, occasionally trips the GFI when I
turn the fan on. What could be the explanation for that?
On 9/3/11 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
> Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
> quesiton.
>
> GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately the
> cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and attach
> this to the romex in my junction box?
Short answer: yes. As long as the romex wire is copper and not
aluminum.
> I suspect the answer is no, but I
> have to ask. If this is not acceptable, I think the next solution is to
> install a new electrical outlet under the sink...
>
That is the better and maybe easier solution. GFCI outlet.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On Tue, 6 Sep 2011 13:02:32 -0400, "Eric" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>"Doug Miller" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>On 9/5/2011 4:00 PM, Eric wrote:
>>
>>
>> "m II" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Dougy gets different water out of his garden hose than he puts in too! LOL
>>
>> Need some basic electrical theory there Dougy or STFU.
>> ------------------
>> "Doug Miller" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> Inductive loads such as those presented by electric motors put the
>> return current slightly out of phase with the supply current. If the
>> amplitude of the phase difference exceeds 20mA, the GFCI trips.
>>
>> ==================
>>
>> I would be sure Doug Miller was using an analogy and doesn't actually
>> believe currents could be different in a series circuit. Most electrical
>> people
>> should know better than that.
>>
>> Cut the guy some slack.
>>
>
>There *is* a slight phase delay when the circuit supplies an inductive
>load -- which means that during a time window measured in milliseconds
>the currents *are* different. That can be enough to trip a GFCI.
>
>Obviously, over anything but an extremely brief time period, the
>currents are exactly the same.
>
>Equally obviously, "m II" is in my killfile for good and valid reasons. :-)
>
>==============
>
>Sorry, but that "delay" theory is not correct.
>
>You may have this confused with inductance where an inductive coil
>electrical component exhibits a reluctance to current change.
>
>Remember "current" flows through an inductive component and never into one
>without returning to the source. There will never be a difference in current
>in and out due to an inductive component or any component in an electrical
>circuit (static electricity theory using high voltage notwithstanding).
>
>A changing voltage may create a phase lagged current through an inductor
>(coil) but not a current phase lagged to itself, whereby current enters a
>component but does not leave at. That would be impossible.
However, this is not a two-terminal device. There is capacitance to ground,
you're missing. This complicates the issue greatly. ...and yes, it is a
problem, or at least was. I believe recent GFCIs have fixed this problem. The
codes have been changed to reflect this.
>Review Kirchhoff's Current Law. (loosely stated) The sum of currents
>arriving at any point must equal zero.
>
>This is not what makes GFCI units trip from fan motors. Current leakage
>faults to ground or other conductors causing a current "differential" (ANSI
>Standard C37.2 - 87) is the only trigger.
Capacitance.
On 9/3/11 5:57 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 9/3/2011 4:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>>> have to ask. If this is not acceptable, I think the next solution is to
>>> install a new electrical outlet under the sink...
>>>
>>
>> That is the better and maybe easier solution. GFCI outlet.
>
> Personally, I don't know that I would go to the expense and trouble as
> GFCI is not required under a kitchen sink for a garbage disposal by most
> NEC versions being used that I'm aware, and it is not really necessary
> in that application.
>
> YMMV ....
>
Interesting that it wouldn't be required given the likely potential for
leaks and water when people are under there repairing stuff. Either way,
I tend to go overboard with those things. I don't mind the cost given
their benefit.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 9/3/11 6:46 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Sep 2011 18:36:23 -0400, -MIKE-<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> Interesting that it wouldn't be required given the likely potential for
>> leaks and water when people are under there repairing stuff. Either way,
>> I tend to go overboard with those things. I don't mind the cost given
>> their benefit.
>
> Just as long as you don't have to reset the damned thing three times a
> day eh?<g>
If that's happening, there's definitely something wrong. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On Thu, 08 Sep 2011 01:05:35 -0500, Steve Barker <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 9/6/2011 10:44 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>
>> ...or is making up his own rules as he goes along. BTDT.
>>
>> <...>
>
>
>this is the most likely option . And he needs to be challenged. There
>IS an appeals process and a committee.
...and, of course, retaliation. He was eventually fired for incompetence (he
failed the exam three times before that, though).
HeyBub wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
>> quesiton.
>> GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately
>> the cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and
>> attach this to the romex in my junction box? I suspect the answer is no,
>> but I have to ask. If this is not acceptable, I think the next
>> solution is to install a new electrical outlet under the sink...
>>
>>
>> BTW, whoever installed the last one wasn't too A-R about it: there
>> were no "romex connectors" going into the junction box, coming out the
>> junction box, or going into the garbage disposal unit. *Scotch tape*
>> was used to cover the sharp edges on the knock-outs on the junction
>> box.... : (
>>
>
> Put in an electrical outlet ON the wall under the sink. It will make
> installation of the NEXT garbage disposal easier.
>
I sort of wish that seemed reasonable. As it is, I decided to install an
outlet on the back of the plywood or particle board (?) on the back of
the cabinet. Finally got all the parts together and am looking forward
to an exciting Saturday night. : )
Thank you everyone for your suggestions!
Bill
On 9/3/11 8:22 PM, Robert Bonomi wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>, -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 9/3/11 5:57 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>> On 9/3/2011 4:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>
>>>>> have to ask. If this is not acceptable, I think the next solution is to
>>>>> install a new electrical outlet under the sink...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That is the better and maybe easier solution. GFCI outlet.
>>>
>>> Personally, I don't know that I would go to the expense and trouble as
>>> GFCI is not required under a kitchen sink for a garbage disposal by most
>>> NEC versions being used that I'm aware, and it is not really necessary
>>> in that application.
>>>
>>> YMMV ....
>>>
>>
>> Interesting that it wouldn't be required given the likely potential for
>> leaks and water when people are under there repairing stuff. Either way,
>> I tend to go overboard with those things. I don't mind the cost given
>> their benefit.
>
> Well, when the wall switch that controls the disposer is 'off' there's
> *no* electicity down there, anyway. A 'ground fault' -- that a GFCI
> would catch -- is possible _only_ when the GD is powered.
>
> It's really _not_ necessary, and provides a benefit only under *very*
> limited (and _very_ unusual) circumstances.
>
> There's no real -harm- in putting one in, although it may cause an un-
> necessary service call by the _next_ owner, if -- no, *WHEN* -- it trips.
>
Do me a favor and underline and bold type some more, could you? :-p
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 9/3/2011 4:40 PM, Bill wrote:
> Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
> quesiton.
>
> GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately the
> cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and attach
> this to the romex in my junction box?
You can -- but you violate Code if you do.
> I suspect the answer is no, but I
> have to ask. If this is not acceptable, I think the next solution is to
> install a new electrical outlet under the sink...
Yep.
>
> BTW, whoever installed the last one wasn't too A-R about it: there were
> no "romex connectors" going into the junction box, coming out the
> junction box, or going into the garbage disposal unit. *Scotch tape* was
> used to cover the sharp edges on the knock-outs on the junction box.... : (
Yikes!!
On 9/3/2011 5:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 9/3/11 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
>> Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
>> quesiton.
>>
>> GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately the
>> cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and attach
>> this to the romex in my junction box?
>
> Short answer: yes. As long as the romex wire is copper and not aluminum.
Sorry, that's *not* correct: flexible cord is not Code-approved for
permanent connection to the wiring system except under limited
circumstances that do not pertain here.
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
"Robert Bonomi" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> Well, when the wall switch that controls the disposer is 'off' there's
> *no* electicity down there, anyway. A 'ground fault' -- that a GFCI
> would catch -- is possible _only_ when the GD is powered.
What wall switch? Not every disposal has a wall switch. Mine is plugged into
a receptacle under the cabinet and the stopper is magnetic and controls an
internal switch.
To the OP, it is better to keep the plug end if possible. Makes taking it
out easier. You can make a very short cord to extend it if needed.
============
Without a real switch on the unit you may want to unplug the beast when you
have to get your hand down it's throat and pull out some string to untangle
the jam in there.
--
Eric
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
The sink is pretty thoroughly grounded in most residences.
=====
No ground on my sink via the ABS drain pipes or the PEX supply tubes either.
--
Eric
Eric wrote:
>
>
> "Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
> "Robert Bonomi" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>>
>> Well, when the wall switch that controls the disposer is 'off' there's
>> *no* electicity down there, anyway. A 'ground fault' -- that a GFCI
>> would catch -- is possible _only_ when the GD is powered.
>
> What wall switch? Not every disposal has a wall switch. Mine is plugged
> into
> a receptacle under the cabinet and the stopper is magnetic and controls an
> internal switch.
>
> To the OP, it is better to keep the plug end if possible. Makes taking it
> out easier. You can make a very short cord to extend it if needed.
Thanks. I'm going to do that. I just got the box screwed up with the
romex connector firmly attached. The working conditions are tight,
otherwise I wouldn't be taking a break..lol.
>
> ============
>
> Without a real switch on the unit you may want to unplug the beast when
> you have to get your hand down it's throat and pull out some string to
> untangle the jam in there.
>
> --
>
> Eric
>
On 9/3/11 11:47 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
> On 9/3/2011 5:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 9/3/11 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
>>> quesiton.
>>>
>>> GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately the
>>> cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and attach
>>> this to the romex in my junction box?
>>
>> Short answer: yes. As long as the romex wire is copper and not aluminum.
>
> Sorry, that's *not* correct: flexible cord is not Code-approved for
> permanent connection to the wiring system except under limited
> circumstances that do not pertain here.
A lot of things aren't code approved that would work perfectly fine.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Doug Miller wrote:
> On 9/3/2011 5:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 9/3/11 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
>>> quesiton.
>>>
>>> GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately the
>>> cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and attach
>>> this to the romex in my junction box?
>>
>> Short answer: yes. As long as the romex wire is copper and not aluminum.
>
> Sorry, that's *not* correct: flexible cord is not Code-approved for
> permanent connection to the wiring system except under limited
> circumstances that do not pertain here.
I'm surprised it is allowed to use a flexible cord which, because of the
nature of the device, has such a high probability of laying in water at
some point if the 36" cord is merely plugged in. I won't let the cord
rest on the bottom surface.
Admittedly, the cord appears to be of very good quality. Surely it is
waterproof unless it cracks.
-MIKE- wrote:
> A lot of things aren't code approved that would work perfectly fine.
>
That's the standard that some contractors I've hired use. What's sad is
that their prices are higher than what perfect fine should really get
(IMO). When I hire something done by a professional, I don't expect it
to be done perfectly fine unless I'm offered a choice.
Thanks for helping me out folks.
I installed the outlet and I'm getting a green light from the outlet
tester Swingman suggested that I get, so life is good. For the time
being, the switch for the garbage disposal will turn a lamp on and off.
: )
Splicing together three guage 12 ground wires under pitiful conditions
seemed to be the hardest part. I think it was Mike M. who said last
year that one can do it even if the wires are not straight. Gosh, I
can't. But I did end up with a really nice-lookin' splice--and it was a
good thing I did when I did, because wire was getting scarce : )
The rest of the garbage disposal install should be like a piece-of-cake,
or something else if you don't like cake.
Bill
On 9/4/11 12:42 AM, Bill wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> A lot of things aren't code approved that would work perfectly fine.
>>
>
> That's the standard that some contractors I've hired use. What's sad is
> that their prices are higher than what perfect fine should really get
> (IMO). When I hire something done by a professional, I don't expect it
> to be done perfectly fine unless I'm offered a choice.
>
Great. Completely out of context, but I agree.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 9/4/11 7:55 AM, HeyBub wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 9/3/11 6:46 PM, Dave wrote:
>>> On Sat, 03 Sep 2011 18:36:23 -0400, -MIKE-<[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Interesting that it wouldn't be required given the likely potential
>>>> for leaks and water when people are under there repairing stuff.
>>>> Either way, I tend to go overboard with those things. I don't mind
>>>> the cost given their benefit.
>>>
>>> Just as long as you don't have to reset the damned thing three times
>>> a day eh?<g>
>>
>> If that's happening, there's definitely something wrong. :-)
>
> Like the start-up of a 1HP motor?
>
I don't know where this is going, but I'm assuming GFCI outlets are
rated for different current loads and applications, just like standard
outlets.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 9/4/2011 12:35 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 9/3/11 11:47 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>> On 9/3/2011 5:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 9/3/11 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
>>>> quesiton.
>>>>
>>>> GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately the
>>>> cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and attach
>>>> this to the romex in my junction box?
>>>
>>> Short answer: yes. As long as the romex wire is copper and not aluminum.
>>
>> Sorry, that's *not* correct: flexible cord is not Code-approved for
>> permanent connection to the wiring system except under limited
>> circumstances that do not pertain here.
>
> A lot of things aren't code approved that would work perfectly fine.
That doesn't mean you should do them -- or advise others to.
On 9/4/2011 9:09 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 13:57:52 +0100, Stuart<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> Why should a 1hp motor trip a GCFI, its an earth fault current trip not a
>> current overload device.
>
> That's something I can't answer because my electrical knowledge is
> pretty limited. However, the small 8" desk fan I use in my bathroom
> which is plugged into a GFI outlet, occasionally trips the GFI when I
> turn the fan on. What could be the explanation for that?
GFCIs are tripped by a current imbalance: if the currrent on the hot and
the neutral differ by more than 20mA, it trips.
Inductive loads such as those presented by electric motors put the
return current slightly out of phase with the supply current. If the
amplitude of the phase difference exceeds 20mA, the GFCI trips.
On 9/4/2011 10:53 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 09:42:52 -0500, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/74-300&t=1
>
> Thanks. One more question. I looked up GFI and GFCI. Is there a
> difference between these two or is it just the nomenclature one
> chooses to use?
Same thing exactly: Ground Fault [Circuit] Interrupter.
On 9/4/2011 11:35 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 11:14:52 -0400, tiredofspam<nospam.nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I have my whole shop on GFI, I don't trip any on startup.
>> GFI is specifically for ground fault.
>> So if you are tripping them, either the gfi is bad or you have a problem
>> with your end equipement / or wiring of the equipment.
>
> Ok, one more question. What if it's just a two pronged plug (no ground
> plug) as is the case with that fan in the bathroom that I mentioned?
> Could a two pronged plug produce false GFI trips?
Absolutely. A GFCI does not need a ground conductor at all in order to
trip. They work by sensing *only* an imbalance in the supply and return
currents (in the black and white wires, respectively). *Anything* that
causes those currents to differ by more than 20mA will trip a GFCI,
regardless of the presence or absence of an equipment grounding
conductor either in the appliance cord or the premises wiring.
On 9/4/2011 12:55 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
> No, the neutral is still the ground.
Nonsense. Neutral and ground are two different things. A circuit using
only two wires has *no* ground.
>
> BTW if you attach a meter to the hot and neutral you'll get voltage.
> Attach the hot and ground and you'll get voltage.
>
> My house was wired so that neutral and ground are one and the same...
No, it was not. It was wired without a ground.
> My second box was not allowed by code to do that.
> It had to have neutral and ground seperated...
> No idea why, but that's code.
For safety.
On 9/4/11 12:19 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
> On 9/4/2011 12:35 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 9/3/11 11:47 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>> On 9/3/2011 5:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 9/3/11 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
>>>>> quesiton.
>>>>>
>>>>> GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately
>>>>> the
>>>>> cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and attach
>>>>> this to the romex in my junction box?
>>>>
>>>> Short answer: yes. As long as the romex wire is copper and not
>>>> aluminum.
>>>
>>> Sorry, that's *not* correct: flexible cord is not Code-approved for
>>> permanent connection to the wiring system except under limited
>>> circumstances that do not pertain here.
>>
>> A lot of things aren't code approved that would work perfectly fine.
>
> That doesn't mean you should do them -- or advise others to.
>
It's a disposal that runs for a few seconds a few times a day.
It doesn't mean they should be scared out of doing an otherwise safe
installation simply because the nec found a reason to advise against it.
An example. Wall plugs are now installed "upside-down" apparently
because of a new fear that a metal object could fall behind the plug
which isn't fully plugged in and short the hot/neutral. This doesn't all
of a sudden render all the plugs in my house unsafe, simple because
there are still people in the world who can't seem to plug in their
stuff all the way.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 9/4/2011 2:11 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 9/4/11 12:19 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>> On 9/4/2011 12:35 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 9/3/11 11:47 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>>> On 9/3/2011 5:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 9/3/11 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>> Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
>>>>>> quesiton.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and attach
>>>>>> this to the romex in my junction box?
>>>>>
>>>>> Short answer: yes. As long as the romex wire is copper and not
>>>>> aluminum.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, that's *not* correct: flexible cord is not Code-approved for
>>>> permanent connection to the wiring system except under limited
>>>> circumstances that do not pertain here.
>>>
>>> A lot of things aren't code approved that would work perfectly fine.
>>
>> That doesn't mean you should do them -- or advise others to.
>>
>
> It's a disposal that runs for a few seconds a few times a day.
> It doesn't mean they should be scared out of doing an otherwise safe
> installation simply because the nec found a reason to advise against it.
Perhaps you'd care to discuss the tests you've conducted, and your
qualifications for evaluating the results, that enable you to describe
with such certainty as a "safe installation" something that the NFPA has
decided is *not* safe.
In any event, it's a silly thing to do. Installing a duplex receptacle
is easier, *and* complies with the Code.
On 9/4/11 2:21 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
> On 9/4/2011 2:11 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 9/4/11 12:19 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>> On 9/4/2011 12:35 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 9/3/11 11:47 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>>>> On 9/3/2011 5:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/3/11 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>> Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
>>>>>>> quesiton.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and
>>>>>>> attach
>>>>>>> this to the romex in my junction box?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Short answer: yes. As long as the romex wire is copper and not
>>>>>> aluminum.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, that's *not* correct: flexible cord is not Code-approved for
>>>>> permanent connection to the wiring system except under limited
>>>>> circumstances that do not pertain here.
>>>>
>>>> A lot of things aren't code approved that would work perfectly fine.
>>>
>>> That doesn't mean you should do them -- or advise others to.
>>>
>>
>> It's a disposal that runs for a few seconds a few times a day.
>> It doesn't mean they should be scared out of doing an otherwise safe
>> installation simply because the nec found a reason to advise against it.
>
> Perhaps you'd care to discuss the tests you've conducted, and your
> qualifications for evaluating the results, that enable you to describe
> with such certainty as a "safe installation" something that the NFPA has
> decided is *not* safe.
>
Many of my electrical engineer friends, including my good friend and
neighbor who's worked for AEP for 20 years, will admit and lament that
quite a few nec requirements are overkill and based more on fear... and
fear of lawsuits... than actual safety and good sense. Theirs is the
experience qualifications by which I expressed my opinion and advice for
this one, limited and specific situation.
There are many safety techniques prescribed by osha that many an
experienced and skilled woodworker simply ignore because they are
pretty silly and only in place to keep Darwinism in check. :-)
> In any event, it's a silly thing to do. Installing a duplex receptacle
> is easier, *and* complies with the Code.
Installing a receptacle was my advice.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Hoosierpopi wrote:
> On Sep 3, 4:40 pm, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> there were no "romex connectors" going into the junction box, coming
> out the junction box, or going into the garbage disposal unit.
> *Scotch tape* was used to cover the sharp edges on the knock-outs on
> the junction box....
>
> Redo the electrical and install an outlet for the disposal. Assume the
> previous "electrician" wired it to a wall switch above the sink - if
> not, you should do so.
That's a good point about the switch. I'm writing that down so I don't
forget to check. I finished installing the new outlet about 4am last
night. It wasn't easy to get to, and there wasn't enough romex available
to offer me many alternatives. Now, I can try to install the garbage
disposal...
>
> You can, of course, "hard-wire" the disposal to the junction box, but
> installing a GFCI duplex outlet (or a standard outlet) would be much
> better from a re-sale perspective. Anything a Home Inspector can
> readily see should LOOK "right." Anything that doesn't gets flagged
> and, then, you have to call a licensed electrician to "fix it" prior
> to closing - no fun and expensive!
Actually, when we bought the house 2 years ago, we pointed out the lack
of a GFCI outlet near the sink and the sellers put one in. So now, there
is a 15A GFCI outlet on a 20A circuit/circuit breaker. Should it be
swapped out with a 15A circuit breaker because of this? One could argue
that the C'Breaker IS protecting "the wire", no? Or is this a potential
hazard?
Thanks!
Bill
Swingman wrote:
> On 9/4/2011 4:36 AM, Bill wrote:
>> Thanks for helping me out folks.
>
> As you have no doubt noted, there is no such thing as a quick answer to
> an electrical question on the wRec. Where one answer will suffice, you
> will get a dozen of the same, adding nothing more but noise. :)
>
One man's noise is another man's music. You carry around an outlet
tester and speak with inspectors in the course of your work. I do not
have the same background. I learned more than 1 or 2 useful things and
also received a valuable suggestion to check the wiring of my switch!
Please don't let my posts cause you any aggravation. I was going to
reply to the message requesting which outlet tester you recommended.
Of course, your reply was more informative and more interesting than one
I would have been able to write. I don't read the threads that seem
like "noise" to me--and being a "(rural) country blues" fan, I have a
really good ear for noise! I have a banjo and a fiddle too, so I Really
know somemthing about noise... ;)
Cheers,
Bill
On 9/4/2011 3:24 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 9/4/11 2:21 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>> On 9/4/2011 2:11 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 9/4/11 12:19 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>>> On 9/4/2011 12:35 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 9/3/11 11:47 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/3/2011 5:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 9/3/11 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>> Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
>>>>>>>> quesiton.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and
>>>>>>>> attach
>>>>>>>> this to the romex in my junction box?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Short answer: yes. As long as the romex wire is copper and not
>>>>>>> aluminum.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, that's *not* correct: flexible cord is not Code-approved for
>>>>>> permanent connection to the wiring system except under limited
>>>>>> circumstances that do not pertain here.
>>>>>
>>>>> A lot of things aren't code approved that would work perfectly fine.
>>>>
>>>> That doesn't mean you should do them -- or advise others to.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's a disposal that runs for a few seconds a few times a day.
>>> It doesn't mean they should be scared out of doing an otherwise safe
>>> installation simply because the nec found a reason to advise against it.
>>
>> Perhaps you'd care to discuss the tests you've conducted, and your
>> qualifications for evaluating the results, that enable you to describe
>> with such certainty as a "safe installation" something that the NFPA has
>> decided is *not* safe.
>>
>
> Many of my electrical engineer friends, including my good friend and
> neighbor who's worked for AEP for 20 years, will admit and lament that
> quite a few nec requirements are overkill and based more on fear... and
> fear of lawsuits... than actual safety and good sense. Theirs is the
> experience qualifications by which I expressed my opinion and advice for
> this one, limited and specific situation.
Just the same, I don't imagine that they knowingly advise anyone to
violate the NEC.
>
> There are many safety techniques prescribed by osha that many an
> experienced and skilled woodworker simply ignore because they are
> pretty silly and only in place to keep Darwinism in check. :-)
>
>
>> In any event, it's a silly thing to do. Installing a duplex receptacle
>> is easier, *and* complies with the Code.
>
> Installing a receptacle was my advice.
>
And mine.
Swingman wrote:
>> Please don't let my posts cause you any aggravation.
>
> Where do you see "aggravation" exhibited? AMMOF, do you not know what "
> :) " is?
>
> As for the noise, stick around ... this is an electrical thread on the
> wRec. As such it stands a historical chance of still being alive weeks
> from now.
My misunderstanding, sarcasm doesn't always come-across well here.
BTW ":)" came across as some smirky-icon on my computer. I couldn't see
through his poker-face, but I'd say he held a pair of jacks.
On 9/4/2011 8:31 PM, Mike M wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 00:34:26 -0400, Bill<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>> On 9/3/2011 5:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 9/3/11 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
>>>>> quesiton.
>>>>>
>>>>> GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately the
>>>>> cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and attach
>>>>> this to the romex in my junction box?
>>>>
>>>> Short answer: yes. As long as the romex wire is copper and not aluminum.
>>>
>>> Sorry, that's *not* correct: flexible cord is not Code-approved for
>>> permanent connection to the wiring system except under limited
>>> circumstances that do not pertain here.
>>
>> I'm surprised it is allowed to use a flexible cord which, because of the
>> nature of the device, has such a high probability of laying in water at
>> some point if the 36" cord is merely plugged in. I won't let the cord
>> rest on the bottom surface.
>>
>> Admittedly, the cord appears to be of very good quality. Surely it is
>> waterproof unless it cracks.
>
> A garbage disposal is required to have a disconnectwhich the plug in
> meets code for a disposal.
Yes, but so does a wall switch, as long as it's within sight. (2008 NEC,
Article 422.31(B))
"Dave" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 16:41:21 +0100, Stuart <[email protected]>
wrote:
>> occasionally trips the GFI when I turn the fan on.
>It's faulty.
Guess it might be. The fan has been in the bathroom for several years
so condensation could well have damaged the fan. I'll toss it just to
be safe. Thanks
=================
You may be wasting your money and effort.
Often this is a result of insulation cuts and nicks (drywall installation
etc.) that do not show up until you shut off an inductive motor or other
device.
When the circuit is broken those devices occasionally produce a high voltage
spike (counter EMF) and then the bad insulation spot shows up where the high
voltage arcs to ground or other wiring. This can trip your GFCI breaker
where it never tripped before.
This is not likely your fan but rather your wiring in the connection boxes.
If you want to replace the fan anyway, then it would be a good step to find
this annoyance. Disturbing the position of the wiring to change this out may
solve the problem also.
--
Eric
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> "J. Clarke" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> The sink is pretty thoroughly grounded in most residences.
>
> =====
>
> No ground on my sink via the ABS drain pipes or the PEX supply tubes
> either.
Then it's grounded though the water in the pipes. And the ground wire
to the disposal.
To get a shock you need a voltage _difference_. Not gonna happen with a
garbage disposal full of water.
==================
Geeeez! I hope you don't actually believe that one.
Water is not a good or reliable ground. Pure water is a complete insulator.
Not acceptable, not safe and will not pass the safety requirement in any
code (use of water for ground). Copper pipes can make good conductors but
not to be relied on in most cases.
--
Eric
Swingman wrote:
> On 9/4/2011 4:00 PM, Bill wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>
>>> As you have no doubt noted, there is no such thing as a quick answer to
>>> an electrical question on the wRec. Where one answer will suffice, you
>>> will get a dozen of the same, adding nothing more but noise. :)
>>>
>>
>> One man's noise is another man's music.
>
> How's that "music" now, Bill?
>
> And the day ain't even over! LOL
>
I Really Was just thinking about your comment as I was reading the
messages on this thread. I completed the garbage disposal install
tonight in less than an hour, and you kindly answered my question about
my 15A rated outlet. Thus, my business is done, and so there is no need
for anyone to argue--I mean, *discuss* on my account.
I think the problem is the name I gave to the thread. I just noticed
that I misspelled "electrical" and some people are taking out their
internal frustration on Doug (who I do not believe deserves it). It
could also be the word "quick" offended some people who don't like to be
told in advance how long a thread is going to be. Live and learn!
Next time I'll try to do better.
"m II" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
Dougy gets different water out of his garden hose than he puts in too! LOL
Need some basic electrical theory there Dougy or STFU.
------------------
"Doug Miller" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
Inductive loads such as those presented by electric motors put the
return current slightly out of phase with the supply current. If the
amplitude of the phase difference exceeds 20mA, the GFCI trips.
==================
I would be sure Doug Miller was using an analogy and doesn't actually
believe currents could be different in a series circuit. Most electrical
people
should know better than that.
Cut the guy some slack.
--
Eric
m II wrote:
> Just too many teacher types that think their way is the only way. Other
> types usually have some tolerance.
>
> Bill likes the attention and keeps a new troll going continuously to
> keep the group interesting.
As long as you are speaking about what I like, I would say I like
"participating"~~the group dynamics. I actually think I have more
strength with the written word than with the spoken word. At least, I
think it better reveals my wonderful sense of humor! : ) YMMV
> -------------------
>
> "Dave" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Absolutely nothing for you to apologize about. That's the nature of
> topics that are discussed here. If you had simply asked if you should
> install a garbage disposal, the thread would probably have taken off
> anyway. That's the nature of the beast when a similar group of diverse
> intellects gets together in the same place.
"Steve Barker" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On 9/5/2011 7:07 AM, Nova wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 20:56:44 -0400, Doug Miller
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>>
>>> A garbage disposal is required to have a disconnectwhich the plug in
>>> meets code for a disposal.
>>
>> Yes, but so does a wall switch, as long as it's within sight. (2008 NEC,
>> Article 422.31(B))
>
> Would an inspector consider a wall switch to be "in sight" when you
> have you head inside the cupboard working on the disposal and the
> switch is above the counter?
I'd say yes, since that's the way MOST of them are wired.
================
It is not hidden.
--
Eric
m II wrote:
> Something sadly discovered, the hard way, by so many, is that a pure
> text medium does not lend itself well to humour and especially sarcasm.
It is suitable enough for my humour and sarcrasm...lol
> It has to be marked clearly as such no matter how obvious the poster
> thinks it should be. But it mimics real life in that if you used it in a
> crowd of say...100 people, somebody is going to "punch you in the
> mouth". **SIGH**
>
> Then there is the bullies mostly fitting into the former mentioned group.
>
> ----------------
> "Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> As long as you are speaking about what I like, I would say I like
> "participating"~~the group dynamics. I actually think I have more
> strength with the written word than with the spoken word. At least, I
> think it better reveals my wonderful sense of humor! : ) YMMV
>
>
> m II wrote:
>> Just too many teacher types that think their way is the only way. Other
>> types usually have some tolerance.
>>
>> Bill likes the attention and keeps a new troll going continuously to
>> keep the group interesting.
>
On 9/5/2011 4:00 PM, Eric wrote:
>
>
> "m II" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> Dougy gets different water out of his garden hose than he puts in too! LOL
>
> Need some basic electrical theory there Dougy or STFU.
> ------------------
> "Doug Miller" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Inductive loads such as those presented by electric motors put the
> return current slightly out of phase with the supply current. If the
> amplitude of the phase difference exceeds 20mA, the GFCI trips.
>
> ==================
>
> I would be sure Doug Miller was using an analogy and doesn't actually
> believe currents could be different in a series circuit. Most electrical
> people
> should know better than that.
>
> Cut the guy some slack.
>
There *is* a slight phase delay when the circuit supplies an inductive
load -- which means that during a time window measured in milliseconds
the currents *are* different. That can be enough to trip a GFCI.
Obviously, over anything but an extremely brief time period, the
currents are exactly the same.
Equally obviously, "m II" is in my killfile for good and valid reasons. :-)
On 9/5/2011 6:21 PM, Bill wrote:
> m II wrote:
>> Just too many teacher types that think their way is the only way. Other
>> types usually have some tolerance.
>>
>> Bill likes the attention and keeps a new troll going continuously to
>> keep the group interesting.
>
> As long as you are speaking about what I like, I would say I like
> "participating"~~the group dynamics. I actually think I have more
> strength with the written word than with the spoken word. At least, I
> think it better reveals my wonderful sense of humor! : ) YMMV
In my humble opinion, "m II" is best ignored...
"tiredofspam" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Yes, thats correct. Twisting alone is not allowed, and twisting with
wire nuts was rejected. Must be crimped... I was surprised. But I was
lucky, because that is how I wired the whole basement. And the inspector
was surprised I did it correctly. I asked whether the wire nuts would
pass and he said NO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Some inspectors have their own strange interpretations of code.
The code for ground (paraphrased) is that they have a mechanical connection.
Wire nuts count. In fact, a special ground wire nut exists, called a
"greenie". This has a hole so a wire can come out of the nut to be used to
fasten to a device, or to a clip to ground a metal box.
-- Jim in NC
On 9/5/2011 10:25 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
> Well you are absolutely wrong.
>
> New code requires that the sump pump be plugged into a gfi.
Only if it's in an unfinished basement (or unfinished portion of a
basement), or a crawl space. And that's not new, either: that provision
dates from the 2008 Code, maybe earlier.
> So What do you say to that...
I say, you're mistaken.
> Any basement circuit requires it.
Not true.
GFCI protection is required *only* in unfinished basements and
unfinished portions of partially finished basements:
"...receptacles ... in the locations specified ... shall have
ground-fault protection ... Unfinished basements -- for purposes of this
section, unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of the
basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas,
work rooms, and the like ..." [2011 NEC, Article 210.8(A)(5)]
>
> I had an inspection recently and they were trying to ding me on that,
> but my inspection was not related to that. And I argued, that when the
> house was built that was what was called for.
>
>
>
> On 9/4/2011 11:44 PM, Steve Barker wrote:
>> On 9/4/2011 8:09 AM, Dave wrote:
>>> On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 13:57:52 +0100, Stuart<[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Why should a 1hp motor trip a GCFI, its an earth fault current trip
>>>> not a
>>>> current overload device.
>>>
>>> That's something I can't answer because my electrical knowledge is
>>> pretty limited. However, the small 8" desk fan I use in my bathroom
>>> which is plugged into a GFI outlet, occasionally trips the GFI when I
>>> turn the fan on. What could be the explanation for that?
>>
>> motors will often trip GFCI's that is why they should never be used on
>> refrigerators, disposals, diswashers and sump pumps and the like.
>>
On 9/6/11 5:57 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> tiredofspam wrote:
>
>> Yes, thats correct. Twisting alone is not allowed, and twisting with
>> wire nuts was rejected. Must be crimped... I was surprised. But I was
>> lucky, because that is how I wired the whole basement. And the
>> inspector was surprised I did it correctly. I asked whether the wire
>> nuts would pass and he said NO.
>>
>
> Interesting. Where do you live? I've never heard of this one before. Has
> to be a local jurisdiction thing.
>
Many local inspectors can be pretty clueless. I was helping a friend
with an addition on his house. We used roof trusses that spanned the
entire width of the structure, from outer wall to outer wall. The
inspector told us we needed to tie the two outer walls together with
2x4's to keep the "rafters" from pushing them out. I tried my best to
convince him that...
A. there were no "rafters" in this structure and it was impossible for a
truss to push anywhere but straight down on the load bearing wall.
B. the walls were in fact, tied together every 24" with the 2x4's on the
bottom of each truss.
He refused to grasp any of these concepts and I ended up tying the walls
together with some 2x4's just to appease him, until he left, then I tore
them out.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
"Doug Miller" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
On 9/5/2011 4:00 PM, Eric wrote:
>
>
> "m II" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> Dougy gets different water out of his garden hose than he puts in too! LOL
>
> Need some basic electrical theory there Dougy or STFU.
> ------------------
> "Doug Miller" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Inductive loads such as those presented by electric motors put the
> return current slightly out of phase with the supply current. If the
> amplitude of the phase difference exceeds 20mA, the GFCI trips.
>
> ==================
>
> I would be sure Doug Miller was using an analogy and doesn't actually
> believe currents could be different in a series circuit. Most electrical
> people
> should know better than that.
>
> Cut the guy some slack.
>
There *is* a slight phase delay when the circuit supplies an inductive
load -- which means that during a time window measured in milliseconds
the currents *are* different. That can be enough to trip a GFCI.
Obviously, over anything but an extremely brief time period, the
currents are exactly the same.
Equally obviously, "m II" is in my killfile for good and valid reasons. :-)
==============
Sorry, but that "delay" theory is not correct.
You may have this confused with inductance where an inductive coil
electrical component exhibits a reluctance to current change.
Remember "current" flows through an inductive component and never into one
without returning to the source. There will never be a difference in current
in and out due to an inductive component or any component in an electrical
circuit (static electricity theory using high voltage notwithstanding).
A changing voltage may create a phase lagged current through an inductor
(coil) but not a current phase lagged to itself, whereby current enters a
component but does not leave at. That would be impossible.
Review Kirchhoff's Current Law. (loosely stated) The sum of currents
arriving at any point must equal zero.
This is not what makes GFCI units trip from fan motors. Current leakage
faults to ground or other conductors causing a current "differential" (ANSI
Standard C37.2 - 87) is the only trigger.
On 9/06/11 3:40 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 9/3/2011 3:40 PM, Bill wrote:
>> Am try to install new garbage disposal and have a quick electrical
>> quesiton.
>>
>> GD Unit came with (3-prong) electrical cord attached. Unfortunately the
>> cord does not seem to be removable. Can I cut off the plug and attach
>> this to the romex in my junction box? I suspect the answer is no, but I
>> have to ask. If this is not acceptable, I think the next solution is to
>> install a new electrical outlet under the sink...
>>
>>
>> BTW, whoever installed the last one wasn't too A-R about it: there were
>> no "romex connectors" going into the junction box, coming out the
>> junction box, or going into the garbage disposal unit. *Scotch tape* was
>> used to cover the sharp edges on the knock-outs on the junction
>> box.... : (
>>
>
> Glad you weren't looking for a quick answer! LOL
In addition to the typo in electrical, he misspelled Quirky.
:-)
--
Froz...
The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.
Swingman wrote:
> On 9/6/2011 2:40 PM, Leon wrote:
>> Glad you weren't looking for a quick answer! LOL
Gosh, and I almost didn't post my "quick question".
It's hard to guess what will capture peoples' interest. But I think if a
thread has a lot of potential energy in it (like a good application of
gravity, chickens, a catapult, gun powder, and/or electricity), that
probably adds to its attractiveness to me and to many other like-minded
overaged juvenile-delinquent's here! : )
>
> Hell, he got the correct answer on the second _reply_ at 4:46 PM.
> Nothing further was needed on the original question ... and for the GFCI
> question, eleven minutes later at 4:57 PM. :)
>
> http://www.craftkb.com/Uwe/Threads/List.aspx/woodworking/55377/Quick-Electrial-Question
>
>
> Everything since is either echoes, or noise. :)
>
"Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
Gosh, and I almost didn't post my "quick question".
It's hard to guess what will capture peoples' interest. But I think if a
thread has a lot of potential energy in it (like a good application of
gravity, chickens, a catapult, gun powder, and/or electricity), that
probably adds to its attractiveness to me and to many other like-minded
overaged juvenile-delinquent's here! : )
========
You mean there was a question put forth?
LOL
You do "stir-the-pot" here and make a lot of people think hard or research
subjects.
Some may hate the "noise" but it is good for most.
--
Eric
Eric wrote:
>
>
> "Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Gosh, and I almost didn't post my "quick question".
> It's hard to guess what will capture peoples' interest. But I think if a
> thread has a lot of potential energy in it (like a good application of
> gravity, chickens, a catapult, gun powder, and/or electricity), that
> probably adds to its attractiveness to me and to many other like-minded
> overaged juvenile-delinquent's here! : )
>
> ========
>
> You mean there was a question put forth?
> LOL
>
> You do "stir-the-pot" here and make a lot of people think hard or
> research subjects.
Gosh, I'm just the type that likes to ask questions, while others
here really have the answers. But thank you.
> Some may hate the "noise" but it is good for most.
>
>
> --
>
> Eric
On 9/6/2011 10:34 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
> Again, tell that to my local inspector. GFCI's were required in my
> finished basement. Every outlet had to be on a protected ckt.
One of two things, then: either you live in a jurisdiction that has
adopted more stringent rules than those specified by the NEC, or your
local inspector doesn't know or doesn't understand the NEC.
The NEC is only a model, a suggestion. In and of itself, it has no force
at all; it acquires the force of law *only* when it is adopted as the
governing regulation by state law or municipal ordinance -- and such
jurisdictions are free to adopt it in toto, or in part, or with such
exceptions or additions as they see fit. It's entirely possible that
your jurisdiction has done exactly that. That's not unheard of, you
know: the Chicago electrical code, as I understand it, is *based* on the
NEC, but has numerous additions (e.g. all wiring must be run in conduit,
no Romex allowed) that appear to stem as much from a desire to keep
union electricians employed as from an understandably morbid fear of
widespread fires.
Robert Bonomi wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>,
> Eric<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Doug Miller" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>>
>> On 9/5/2011 4:00 PM, Eric wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "m II" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> Dougy gets different water out of his garden hose than he puts in too! LOL
>>>
>>> Need some basic electrical theory there Dougy or STFU.
>>> ------------------
>>> "Doug Miller" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>>> Inductive loads such as those presented by electric motors put the
>>> return current slightly out of phase with the supply current. If the
>>> amplitude of the phase difference exceeds 20mA, the GFCI trips.
>>>
>>> ==================
>>>
>>> I would be sure Doug Miller was using an analogy and doesn't actually
>>> believe currents could be different in a series circuit. Most electrical
>>> people
>>> should know better than that.
>>>
>>> Cut the guy some slack.
>>>
>>
>> There *is* a slight phase delay when the circuit supplies an inductive
>> load -- which means that during a time window measured in milliseconds
>> the currents *are* different. That can be enough to trip a GFCI.
>>
>> Obviously, over anything but an extremely brief time period, the
>> currents are exactly the same.
>>
>> Equally obviously, "m II" is in my killfile for good and valid reasons. :-)
>>
>> ==============
>>
>> Sorry, but that "delay" theory is not correct.
>
> "Those of you who think you know it all, are very annoying those who do."
>>
>> You may have this confused with inductance where an inductive coil
>> electrical component exhibits a reluctance to current change.
>>
>> Remember "current" flows through an inductive component and never into one
>> without returning to the source.
>
> You know not that of which you speak.
>
> There *is* energy in the magnetic field surrounding the inductor.
> Just _where_ do you think that energy came from?
>
> When power was applied some electricity went _into+ the device that did
> _NOT_ come out as electricity *at*that*time*.
>
> Similarly, when power is removed, some electricity comes out _after_ the
> switch is opened. Just _where_ do you think that energy comes from?
>
> hint, it is *stored* in the electromagnetic field.
>
>> There will never be a difference in current
>> in and out due to an inductive component or any component in an electrical
>> circuit.
>
> *snicker*
> Just where do you think the 'back emf' comes from when power is suddenly
> removed from an inductor?
>
>> A changing voltage may create a phase lagged current through an inductor
>> (coil) but not a current phase lagged to itself, whereby current enters a
>> component but does not leave at. That would be impossible.
>
> 'Male bovine excrement' applies. You even stated one situation you call
> 'impossible'. To wit: 'A changing voltage through an inductor, may create a
> phase-lagged current.' If you measure the *instantaneous* current _before_
> and after the 'phase-shifting' device You *will* see different values.
> Draw a sine-wave, measure the instantaneous (not 'peak', or 'mean) amplitude
> at any given point during full cycle. Now measure the instantaneous amplitude
> at a slightly different phase of the waveform. Unless the two points you
> chose are symmetric around a maxima or minima of the waveform the
> *INSTANTANEOUS* amplitude _will_ be different.
>
>> This is not what makes GFCI units trip from fan motors. Current leakage
>> faults to ground or other conductors causing a current "differential" (ANSI
>> Standard C37.2 - 87) is the only trigger.
>
> And a *transient* phase-shift within a device _can_ cause a sufficient
> 'instantaneous' current difference (measured on opposite sides of the
> phase-shift) to trip an old-style GFCI.
>
>
Eric, Doesn't it just warm your heart to see people take a thread and
make it their own! Reminds me of a guy I knew who was outstanding in
his field. ; )
"Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
Eric, Doesn't it just warm your heart to see people take a thread and
make it their own! Reminds me of a guy I knew who was outstanding in
his field. ; )
===============
Must have been a farmer!
--
Eric
Swingman wrote:
> On 9/6/2011 11:59 PM, Bill wrote:
>> Robert Bonomi wrote:
>
>>> And a *transient* phase-shift within a device _can_ cause a sufficient
>>> 'instantaneous' current difference (measured on opposite sides of the
>>> phase-shift) to trip an old-style GFCI.
>
>> Eric, Doesn't it just warm your heart to see people take a thread and
>> make it their own! Reminds me of a guy I knew who was outstanding in his
>> field. ; )
>
> Of the two, Robert is the only one who should have warmed yours.
Yes, I would like to make it clear that his was the only reply I was
referring to (since it seemed like rant).
"Steve Barker" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On 9/8/2011 7:26 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
> On 9/8/2011 2:03 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
>
>> And it was further explained to me by the local AHJ that if the outlet
>> was a SINGLE outlet (and they are available) for the sump only, (NOT A
>> DUPLEX OUTLET) that it would not have to be a gfci.
>
> That's not what the NEC says.
>
>
Well, either way, i wasn't about to seek out the "single" outlet, so i
installed the gfci, had the inspector do his re-check, then removed it
and put in a standard outlet. I will NOT run a gfci on a sump pump period.
=================
Nothing like a "secret off switch" on a sump pump to flood your basement.
Too bad these things don't come with audible alerts or otherwise remote
indicators!
--
Eric
On 9/4/2011 3:37 PM, Bill wrote:
> Actually, when we bought the house 2 years ago, we pointed out the lack
> of a GFCI outlet near the sink and the sellers put one in. So now, there
> is a 15A GFCI outlet on a 20A circuit/circuit breaker. Should it be
> swapped out with a 15A circuit breaker because of this? One could argue
> that the C'Breaker IS protecting "the wire", no? Or is this a potential
> hazard?
Not usually a problem - where the branch circuit supplies one duplex, or
two or more single receptacles - or a code violation in most locales. A
15A receptacle, standard or GFCI, is rated for 20A throughput.
Basically, it should be impossible by virtue of the plug configuration,
by today's standards, to plug anything in that would be in violation.
CAVEAT: again, this may not apply to all jurisdictions, as even the
exceptions may vary from place to place, IME.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Just too many teacher types that think their way is the only way. Other
types usually have some tolerance.
Bill likes the attention and keeps a new troll going continuously to keep
the group interesting.
-------------------
"Dave" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
Absolutely nothing for you to apologize about. That's the nature of
topics that are discussed here. If you had simply asked if you should
install a garbage disposal, the thread would probably have taken off
anyway. That's the nature of the beast when a similar group of diverse
intellects gets together in the same place.
On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 11:35:49 -0400, Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>Could a two pronged plug produce false GFI trips?
Apologies, should have thought about it a little more before asking.
Most device plugs, if not all in bathroom are two pronged and they are
what a bathroom GFI would protect against in the case of a water born
circuit.
In article <[email protected]>, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 9/3/11 5:57 PM, Swingman wrote:
>> On 9/3/2011 4:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>
>>>> have to ask. If this is not acceptable, I think the next solution is to
>>>> install a new electrical outlet under the sink...
>>>>
>>>
>>> That is the better and maybe easier solution. GFCI outlet.
>>
>> Personally, I don't know that I would go to the expense and trouble as
>> GFCI is not required under a kitchen sink for a garbage disposal by most
>> NEC versions being used that I'm aware, and it is not really necessary
>> in that application.
>>
>> YMMV ....
>>
>
>Interesting that it wouldn't be required given the likely potential for
>leaks and water when people are under there repairing stuff. Either way,
>I tend to go overboard with those things. I don't mind the cost given
>their benefit.
Well, when the wall switch that controls the disposer is 'off' there's
*no* electicity down there, anyway. A 'ground fault' -- that a GFCI
would catch -- is possible _only_ when the GD is powered.
It's really _not_ necessary, and provides a benefit only under *very*
limited (and _very_ unusual) circumstances.
There's no real -harm- in putting one in, although it may cause an un-
necessary service call by the _next_ owner, if -- no, *WHEN* -- it trips.
Again, tell that to my local inspector. GFCI's were required in my
finished basement. Every outlet had to be on a protected ckt.
On 9/6/2011 6:51 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
> On 9/5/2011 10:25 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
>> Well you are absolutely wrong.
>>
>> New code requires that the sump pump be plugged into a gfi.
>
> Only if it's in an unfinished basement (or unfinished portion of a
> basement), or a crawl space. And that's not new, either: that provision
> dates from the 2008 Code, maybe earlier.
>
>> So What do you say to that...
>
> I say, you're mistaken.
>
>> Any basement circuit requires it.
>
> Not true.
>
> GFCI protection is required *only* in unfinished basements and
> unfinished portions of partially finished basements:
>
> "...receptacles ... in the locations specified ... shall have
> ground-fault protection ... Unfinished basements -- for purposes of this
> section, unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of the
> basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas,
> work rooms, and the like ..." [2011 NEC, Article 210.8(A)(5)]
>>
>> I had an inspection recently and they were trying to ding me on that,
>> but my inspection was not related to that. And I argued, that when the
>> house was built that was what was called for.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/4/2011 11:44 PM, Steve Barker wrote:
>>> On 9/4/2011 8:09 AM, Dave wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 13:57:52 +0100, Stuart<[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Why should a 1hp motor trip a GCFI, its an earth fault current trip
>>>>> not a
>>>>> current overload device.
>>>>
>>>> That's something I can't answer because my electrical knowledge is
>>>> pretty limited. However, the small 8" desk fan I use in my bathroom
>>>> which is plugged into a GFI outlet, occasionally trips the GFI when I
>>>> turn the fan on. What could be the explanation for that?
>>>
>>> motors will often trip GFCI's that is why they should never be used on
>>> refrigerators, disposals, diswashers and sump pumps and the like.
>>>
>
Western NJ
On 9/6/2011 5:57 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> tiredofspam wrote:
>
>> Yes, thats correct. Twisting alone is not allowed, and twisting with
>> wire nuts was rejected. Must be crimped... I was surprised. But I was
>> lucky, because that is how I wired the whole basement. And the
>> inspector was surprised I did it correctly. I asked whether the wire
>> nuts would pass and he said NO.
>>
>
> Interesting. Where do you live? I've never heard of this one before. Has
> to be a local jurisdiction thing.
>
Dougy gets different water out of his garden hose than he puts in too! LOL
Need some basic electrical theory there Dougy or STFU.
------------------
"Doug Miller" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
Inductive loads such as those presented by electric motors put the
return current slightly out of phase with the supply current. If the
amplitude of the phase difference exceeds 20mA, the GFCI trips.
On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 09:42:52 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/74-300&t=1
Thanks. One more question. I looked up GFI and GFCI. Is there a
difference between these two or is it just the nomenclature one
chooses to use?
On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 09:30:29 -0400, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] says...
>>
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>> > On 9/3/11 6:46 PM, Dave wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 03 Sep 2011 18:36:23 -0400, -MIKE-<[email protected]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>> Interesting that it wouldn't be required given the likely potential
>> >>> for leaks and water when people are under there repairing stuff.
>> >>> Either way, I tend to go overboard with those things. I don't mind
>> >>> the cost given their benefit.
>> >>
>> >> Just as long as you don't have to reset the damned thing three times
>> >> a day eh?<g>
>> >
>> > If that's happening, there's definitely something wrong. :-)
>>
>> Like the start-up of a 1HP motor?
>
>That would trip a circuit breaker. If there's a ground fault at startup
>something's wrong.
>
Due to the inductance of the windings of larger motors there is a
slight delay in the current flow between the hot and neutral leads.
This delay can cause a false trip of a GFCI.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
-MIKE- wrote :
> On 9/4/11 7:55 AM, HeyBub wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 9/3/11 6:46 PM, Dave wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 03 Sep 2011 18:36:23 -0400, -MIKE-<[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Interesting that it wouldn't be required given the likely potential
>>>>> for leaks and water when people are under there repairing stuff.
>>>>> Either way, I tend to go overboard with those things. I don't mind
>>>>> the cost given their benefit.
>>>>
>>>> Just as long as you don't have to reset the damned thing three times
>>>> a day eh?<g>
>>>
>>> If that's happening, there's definitely something wrong. :-)
>>
>> Like the start-up of a 1HP motor?
>>
>
> I don't know where this is going, but I'm assuming GFCI outlets are
> rated for different current loads and applications, just like standard
> outlets.
Yes they are.
1 For different applications ie Medical, domestic, Industrial etc.
2 There are different rules in ifferent jurisdictions and countries.
--
John G.
Yup! Here come's the old "I wasn't there but this is what really happened"
and "I know more than your Inspector does"
Maybe Dougy has learned something about not telling **you** what happened
**to you** from the other side of the world.
Funniest yet... Dougy has professed to the world, repeatedly, he has
filtered me and has his mouth gagged, for once.
Stamping his feet as he bangs his head against the wall, pacing, trying not
to burst a #14cu in his head.
Hook, line, and GFI.
---------
"tiredofspam" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Again, tell that to my local inspector. GFCI's were required in my
finished basement. Every outlet had to be on a protected ckt.
On Sat, 03 Sep 2011 18:36:23 -0400, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Interesting that it wouldn't be required given the likely potential for
>leaks and water when people are under there repairing stuff. Either way,
>I tend to go overboard with those things. I don't mind the cost given
>their benefit.
Just as long as you don't have to reset the damned thing three times a
day eh? <g>
On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 14:05:23 -0400, Doug Miller
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On 9/6/2011 11:44 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Tue, 06 Sep 2011 22:46:05 -0400, Doug Miller
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/6/2011 10:34 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
>>>> Again, tell that to my local inspector. GFCI's were required in my
>>>> finished basement. Every outlet had to be on a protected ckt.
>>>
>>> One of two things, then: either you live in a jurisdiction that has
>>> adopted more stringent rules than those specified by the NEC, or your
>>> local inspector doesn't know or doesn't understand the NEC.
>>
>> ...or is making up his own rules as he goes along. BTDT.
>>
>
>Well, I was trying to be nice... but yeah, that can happen too. Still
>(IMHO) falls into the category of "doesn't know or doesn't understand
>the NEC", though.
I had an inspector (not electrical) that knew the code, and even told me what
the code was, "but I want you to do it this way...". I didn't want to piss
off the inspector, so...
On 9/6/2011 11:59 PM, Bill wrote:
> Robert Bonomi wrote:
>> And a *transient* phase-shift within a device _can_ cause a sufficient
>> 'instantaneous' current difference (measured on opposite sides of the
>> phase-shift) to trip an old-style GFCI.
> Eric, Doesn't it just warm your heart to see people take a thread and
> make it their own! Reminds me of a guy I knew who was outstanding in his
> field. ; )
Of the two, Robert is the only one who should have warmed yours.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Something sadly discovered, the hard way, by so many, is that a pure text
medium does not lend itself well to humour and especially sarcasm. It has to
be marked clearly as such no matter how obvious the poster thinks it should
be. But it mimics real life in that if you used it in a crowd of say...100
people, somebody is going to "punch you in the mouth". **SIGH**
Then there is the bullies mostly fitting into the former mentioned group.
----------------
"Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
As long as you are speaking about what I like, I would say I like
"participating"~~the group dynamics. I actually think I have more
strength with the written word than with the spoken word. At least, I
think it better reveals my wonderful sense of humor! : ) YMMV
m II wrote:
> Just too many teacher types that think their way is the only way. Other
> types usually have some tolerance.
>
> Bill likes the attention and keeps a new troll going continuously to
> keep the group interesting.
I know of complete factories that are GFCI protected and most high voltage
protection systems that include 87 (IEEE) GFI protection.
They can and should be used but will find defective wiring.
--------------------
"Steve Barker" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
motors will often trip GFCI's that is why they should never be used on
refrigerators, disposals, diswashers and sump pumps and the like.
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
On 9/5/2011 7:14 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
> On 9/5/2011 4:00 PM, Eric wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I would be sure Doug Miller was using an analogy and doesn't actually
>> believe currents could be different in a series circuit. Most electrical
>> people
>> should know better than that.
>>
>> Cut the guy some slack.
>>
>
> There *is* a slight phase delay when the circuit supplies an inductive
> load -
True.