The Building Bidness

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> RE: Subject
>
> All together now, can we say, "Levittown"?
>
> Lew
>
>
"Hicksville" is better!!! :)

charlieb wrote:
<snip>
> The unfortunate thing about our educational system is the lack
> of "trade schools". If you want to learn problem solving and
> develop discipline and creative thinking, engineering and computer
> science aren't the only place to develop those skills. Just hand
> a pair of metal shears and some galvy sheet to an engineer and
> ask them to make a rain gutter down spout. Or better yet, have
> them build a set of stairs, with a landing - then do the hand rails
> for it.
>
> Oh for the Good Old Daze?
>
> charlie b

Not only lack of Trade Schools, but also the lack of people willing to take on
apprentices. I have talked to several contractors where I live and they say they
do not want to be bothered having to teach. They rather find skilled workers.
This makes no sense to me.

My son'n law who is a stone carver (does a lot of restoration work in D.C.) has
taken on apprentices and they all end up leaving for one reason or another. Not
the money side of it, but just they want to move to different areas or decide to
go back to school for something else. So I can understand how this can be
frustrating and why many contractors decide not to do it.


Chris

"charlie" wrote
>
> i've toured the nearby wright mansion/school in scottsdale, az. from
> uncomfortable furniture (that couldn't be changed out), to low ceilings,
> to odd angularities, to thin windows/walls with not much insulation, it's
> not much better.
>
I know. My wife loves everything Frank Loyd Wright. We have numerous books
etc, that detail his work. Along with various accounts of people who lived
in his houses. Many of the houses were cold and hard to heat. Falling
Water was falling into the creek and had to be rescued with big bucks
because he did not use reinforced concrete for the support beams.

I personally love the way his stuff LOOKS. The function is something else.
I never understood why he insisted on uncomfortable furniture. It is very
much an artist perspective. Beauty is in the visual presentation. The human
needs are not really addressed. And as occupants in his art, we are all
expected to suffer. For art's sake.

"Mike O." wrote

> This is an interesting discussion but it may all be moot since we may
> not get to build any more new homes in this economy anyway.

Hell, I've got one in the bidding stage, and another lined up behind that
one ... I'm not counting my chickens, mind you, but I'll keep building as
long as I'm able and someone wants to pay ... or until youngest daughter
gets out of college and bass boats become more affordable, which ever comes
first. :)

Speaking of "The Building Bidness", and once again ... anyone, pro or diy,
with any interest in home building, should be required to read "House" by
Tracy Kidder. It's been years, but I still cherish the overall read, which
explores every angle and POV.

As one pundit put it about "House" ... this construction project is the
framework for exploring what happens when we put a running meter on a
dream."

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

We have a residential area here which was 'thrown up' about 40 years
ago. It went up really fast and cheap. The was a boom in the petro-
chemical expansion so a few contractors thought it would be a good
idea to offer some cheap housing. They had some of the local codes
amended to get this done.

We now. affectionately, refer to that sub division as Cardboard Acres.
You'd woner if I was pulling your leg if I were to tell you some
details...try these:
Aluminum wiring
2 x 2 studs, 24" on centre covered with 1/2" drywall for internal
walls (We kid around that you don't really need doors, just walk
through them.)
2-1/2" baseboard.
Res-core cabinets with MacTac finishes.
I have seen one pocket door; a single slab of 3/4" plywood. Period.

We are talking about pure shit here, people.

On cast drains.. yes they are quieter. Try finding a plumber that will
assemble new cast..properly.

My current residence was built in 1955. The tubafors ARE 2 x 4. Real
plaster. Diagonal plank sub floors. NO bounce or squeeks. The reason I
bought the house, because I knew, come what may, that would be the
last one standing. I think it would survive a direct hit by a megaton
nuke. (Okay...maybe I'm a bit optimistic here)

<SNIP>

> The unfortunate thing about our educational system is the lack
> of "trade schools". If you want to learn problem solving and
> develop discipline and creative thinking, engineering and computer
> science aren't the only place to develop those skills. Just hand
> a pair of metal shears and some galvy sheet to an engineer and
> ask them to make a rain gutter down spout. Or better yet, have
> them build a set of stairs, with a landing - then do the hand rails
> for it.
>


I have an uncle who owns a machine shop. He is always looking
for machinists. So much so that, in the past, he's paid the
fees for kids with promise to *go* to trade school. Guess what?
They can't hack it. Specifically, they can't handle the math
(algebra and trig) that are pretty much a necessity for any
working machinist.


--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk [email protected]
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

On Nov 12, 12:05=A0am, Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote:

SNIP of other true statements...

> But the universities pound the message of "If your kid is not a
> college grad, they'll never succeed" message into anyone who will hear
> them. (It no doubt annoys their fully tenured faculties that the
> aforementioned plumber makes more than the dean of their college.) We
> all have our "thing". Our job as parents is to help our kids find that
> thing and encourage them to pursue it. Sadly, there is a cultural and
> academic stigma attached to people who work with their hands.

It hasn't happened in the last few years, but there have been many
times I heard parents talking to their kids when I switched from
commercial work to residential.

They would ask with sincerity, or with a downright sneer in their
voice: "Do you want to wind up like those guys in there? Is that what
you want? If that's the case, you might as well start flipping
burgers now if that's all you want out of your life. We thought you
wanted more."

Heard it more than once.

I even had a homeowner that had a son that was really interested in
working in construction. He wanted me to hire his son for a summer so
I could dog the hell out of him to make him stay in college. He
actually asked me to do that, so that I could make sure his son didn't
wind up like me.

No insult there, eh?

And how many times did I hear in my youth "well, the difference
between you and me Robert, is that I make my living with my head and
you use your hands." That statement alone should let you know how
arrogant and stupid the educators of our country have become.

Everything you posted is true. Kids/teenagers are taught by parents,
educators and hammered with peer pressure that it is shameful, or a
last resort to make your living with your hands these days.

A sad comment on our society in my opinion.

Robert

"charlie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> that alone will be the downfall of the US. sure we need a lot of college
> graduates in high tech fields, but people have to live somewhere and get
> things repaired. without training in these fields, where do the majority
> of people to do these tasks come from, as existing people in the trades
> die off and aren't available to teach any more.
>

I'm curious why people think this way. Around here the trades are suffering
from a poor economy right now, but not from a lack of new blood coming into
the trades. The unions are doing well attracting new blood, and the
non-union jobs equally so. The trades seem to be doing pretty well in terms
of continuing their own existence except in areas where a trade does not
really serve a purpose anymore, besides in a specialty sense - plaster guys
for example. Just not a lot of call for them anymore. Can't expect that
trade to thrive anymore.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Swingman" wrote

> "Mike Marlow" wrote
>
>> Well - if old is better then we should bemoan the death of the leaded
>> water pipe.
>
> Unfortunately, resistance to change lags technology and conservation
> efforts and is an absolute bitch to overcome when entrenched in
> bureaucracy.
>
> Case in point ... recently wanted to use PEX for a specific purpose, but
> our municipal code here won't allow it.
>
> Outfitted a new home with multiple, "whole house" gas tankless hot water
> heaters, one for up, one for down, and during the design stage it dawned
> on me that a simple, easily built "manifold system" would be just the
> thing for efficient point to point hot water distribution using these
> larger tankless heaters ... PEX would have made that simple, cost
> effective, and a helluva lot more efficient getting hot water point to
> point than what we ended up being _forced_ to implement.
>

I have heard about this.

Hasn't PEX been used for hot water distribution for many years in Europe?

I don't know how far back the change occured - I suspect after Allentown
-
the first tract houses (ie. build 400 units at a time - with separate
crews
for each major task - excavation, rough plumbing, forming, pouring ,
framing and subflooring, wiring, plumbing, heating and ducting, lath &
plaster or dry wall, electrical finishing, finish carpentry, painting,
cabinet
installers, . . .) Crews did ONE thing - over and over and over - and
often
had no idea what was to be done next. So the foundation crew screw ups
were left for the framers to fix, the framers left screw ups for the
sheet
rock guys and the sheet rock guys got good at furring walls and hiding
things under mud, what screw ups they left would be taken care of by
the painters and trim carpenters, ...

I've got a house that was built in 1954 - a tract house - one of four
floor plans and two rooflines for each floor plan. I've done a LOT of
remodeling over the years - and found walls are seldom plumb or
corners square. On the other hand, I've worked on some old victorians
that probably started out square and plumb, but time and settling
have affected the original attention to detail.

Then there's my oldest, an ex-marine who became a carpenter's
helper after getting out of the marine corp. He was fortunate to
be taken under the wing of an old school "carpenter" and learned
to do things both right - AND quickly and efficiently. So when it
came time to build his own place - yes he hired subs - but he checked
their work BEFORE handing over a check - and did all the framing
himself, with help from his BIL - who was paid going wages.

Since the site is about 8 houses down the street, I'd stop buy around
lunch time to get the tour of what had gotten done - with details
of "challenges" with his solutions. Unlike his wife and mother, who
know nothing of what's involved in building a house from the dirt up,
I could appreciate what he was doing and ask leading questions which
would give him the opportunity to brag a bit. (mitered corners on
facia boards on the end of the rafters - so there's no end grain
exposed to the weather, plumb and square methods, trim out tricks,
etc..

He subsequently got his general contractor's license, passing the
test on the first try - just as the building boom was ending - and
with it, his job with an upscale remodeling outfit (MINIMUM jobs
are $175K - bathrooms, and typical jobs are $350K kitchens).

Tough times coming for The Trades - which is why he's applying
for the California Highway Patrol. There will ALWAYS be speeders
and drunk drivers so there's good job security.

The unfortunate thing about our educational system is the lack
of "trade schools". If you want to learn problem solving and
develop discipline and creative thinking, engineering and computer
science aren't the only place to develop those skills. Just hand
a pair of metal shears and some galvy sheet to an engineer and
ask them to make a rain gutter down spout. Or better yet, have
them build a set of stairs, with a landing - then do the hand rails
for it.

Oh for the Good Old Daze?

charlie b

On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:19:47 -0700, charlie wrote:

> "charlieb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> ...
>> The unfortunate thing about our educational system is the lack
>> of "trade schools".
> ...
>> charlie b
>
> that alone will be the downfall of the US. sure we need a lot of college
> graduates in high tech fields, but people have to live somewhere and get
> things repaired. without training in these fields, where do the majority of
> people to do these tasks come from, as existing people in the trades die off
> and aren't available to teach any more.
>
> regards,
> charlie

Well charlie, you can blame a lot on today's society. It's not a matter of
getting something repaired anymore. Just throw it away and buy a new one.
Yes, this is going to be part of the reason for the downfall of the U.S.
I believe, that in the schools of today it's more important to get the
kid's to graduation so the stats are high than what is taught and learned.
Yet the U.S. cannot understand why the people in foreign countries
out-shine the U.S. kids in math and sciences.

Paul H.

--
The only dumb question, is the one not asked


http://www.USENETHOST.com 100% Uncensored , 100% Anonymous, 5$/month Only!

"Mike Marlow" wrote
>
> I'm curious why people think this way. Around here the trades are
> suffering from a poor economy right now, but not from a lack of new blood
> coming into the trades. The unions are doing well attracting new blood,
> and the non-union jobs equally so. The trades seem to be doing pretty
> well in terms of continuing their own existence except in areas where a
> trade does not really serve a purpose anymore, besides in a specialty
> sense - plaster guys for example. Just not a lot of call for them
> anymore. Can't expect that trade to thrive anymore.
>
I knew a couple guys who got into the plaster biz. Did the apprenticeship
and everything. Doing well too. But they only works on high end stuff and
historical buildings. Definitely a specialty now.

Tom Watson wrote:
<SNIP>

> Here is where we come to the core of the problem.
>
> I'm actually not smart enough to have helped create the current
> financial mess.
>
> You need an MBA to do that kind of damage.
>
> I'm not smart enough to understand how I can make a loan to a person
> who has no hope of paying it back and call that a good day at work.
>
> I'm not smart enough to loan money to a builder who has one foot in
> the financial grave and think that I have done a good deed that day.
>
> I'm not smart enough to give money to a company that has already
> proved themselves to be improvident.
>
> I guess I just don't understand finance.

Me either. Here's what I don't understand:

How can you be on the public dole and think you should take
out a loan on a house.

How can you earn $N per year, and be $N/2 in credit card debt?

How does any responsible person see a flat screen TV, a luxury
car, a fabulous vacation, a second home, or a boat as an
entitlement?

How is it that it's wrong to bail out Wall Street (it is), but
not wrong to bail out the lazy, the greedy, and those lacking
fiscal self-control on Main Street - cuz, you know what, they're
both flat out wrong.

>
> What I do understand is that my house and my vehicles are paid for.
>
> I do understand that my eleven and sixteen year old children can go to
> whatever college they are fortunate enough to get into.

What if they do not want to? Are you cool with them going into the
trades, opening a hair salon, becoming a musician/entertainer/comic,
or wherever their abilities take them? If you are, good for you.
If you're not, rethink this. The university system is increasingly
a scam intended to scare parents into parting with $100k+ per student
to ensure their "success" ... only it often does not work out that
way.


>
> I do understand that the only reason that I showed up to work today
> was to make sure that my wife would have a comfortable retirement -
> because I will surely die before her because I have nothing left to
> worry about.
>
> That's all I know.
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Tom Watson
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/


--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk [email protected]
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

In article <[email protected]>,
Douglas Johnson <[email protected]> wrote:
> Unfortunately, my neighborhood has been infected with McMansions. They
> buy perfectly good houses and drive a bulldozer through them.

The opposite is happening in the UK. Developers buy up larger houses, which
have decent sized gardens, demolish them and put up half a dozen tiny
boxes which they then sell for ridiculus prices and large profits.

Well, did I suppose, the current finacial situation has left them unable
to sell :-)

--
Stuart Winsor

Don't miss the Risc OS Christmas show
http://rickman.orpheusweb.co.uk/mug/show08/MUGshow.html

Mike Marlow wrote:
> "Mike O." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>>When was the last time you saw 3/4" planking (run on an angle) used
>>for a subfloor on a new home and then 3/4 solid hardwood throughout?
>
>
> I've been around as long as most of the seasoned critters here, and I've
> never seen this. Maybe it's a regional thing? Either way, I'm not at all
> sure I would prize 3/4 planking on a diagonal over 3/4 plywood.

I think it was a regional thing. That said, fastener pullout and
pullthrough tests indicate that planking on a diagonal does far better
than either plywood or OSB when nailing down hardwood.


>>When was the last time you saw cast iron drain lines in
>>a new home?

> Again - thankfully not in decades. The stuff is solid and it lasts a long
> time, but so does PVC at a fraction of the price. When was the last time
> you found the need for cast over PVC? I mean - in terms of durability, etc.

Cast iron is far quieter than PVC. On the other hand, some friends have
an old house with a massive main drain line, and they found out that
they weren't supposed to use low-flow toilets with it since they didn't
put out enough water to properly wash the inside of the pipes down.

Chris

"Mike O." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> When was the last time you saw 3/4" planking (run on an angle) used
> for a subfloor on a new home and then 3/4 solid hardwood throughout?

I've been around as long as most of the seasoned critters here, and I've
never seen this. Maybe it's a regional thing? Either way, I'm not at all
sure I would prize 3/4 planking on a diagonal over 3/4 plywood.

> When was the last time you saw 3/4" planking used for roof decking on
> a new home?

Thankfully, not in decades. Don't know why anyone would consider this to
have been a superior approach.

> When was the last time you saw cast iron drain lines in
> a new home?

Again - thankfully not in decades. The stuff is solid and it lasts a long
time, but so does PVC at a fraction of the price. When was the last time
you found the need for cast over PVC? I mean - in terms of durability, etc.

> Even copper water pipes are becoming more rare even in
> upscale homes.

Well - if old is better then we should bemoan the death of the leaded water
pipe.

> If we built homes today using the same old school
> materials we would have much better homes and I would suggest this
> would certainly close the gap in quality between then and now.

I really disagree. In the areas you mentioned, I don't believe you can make
a case for a superior house from these old materials. Maybe we should forgo
Romex and go back to post and wire?

I'm not an advocate of newer is better, but I'm also not an advocate of
older is better. That's usually the domain of the romantics.

>
> Maybe but I've never met a framer that I would want to trim my
> house...not even framers that had 20 years of experience when I
> started over 25 years ago. In my early days I also worked for and
> around a few old school guys who tried to do it all. Some things they
> were very good at and some things.... not so much. Your experience
> must have been different.

Mine has been the same as yours. The romantics like to remember that one
fellow who really could do it all, and attribute those skills to everyone
back then. But... I am old enough to remember a lot of those old timers -
when they were old timers back then. Seldom was there really a jack of all
trades that was a master of all of them.


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Nov 11, 12:16=A0am, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:

> I agree with you about the cost aspect, but it's still all about skill,
> craftsmanship, and pride in your work.

How true. I have worked on several homes (100+ years old) in the
historic district of our town, and a few older commercial buildings
over the years.

People are people. Tradesmen are people.

There are some that want to excel at every aspect of their work, and
there are those that are putting in a day's work. Tearing out old
work, revamping old work, repairing old work certainly bears that
out. I have seen plenty of slipshod work in old structures.

If a guy is going to do good work, he will do it. If he is there to
collect a check and do work just good enough to get by, that's what he
will do.

It's that way in all of human nature, across all job descriptions.

Robert

On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:28:13 -0500, Tom Watson <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Shortly after this sweet indoctrination (which I have been eternally
>grateful for) the model of how to build houses changed.
>The builder went from being a man who had worked himself up through
>the trades to being a guy with a phone and a fancy car.
>
>He hired subcontractors for everything and had almost nobody on his
>payroll.
>
>There was some tension there for awhile as the old line guys tried to
>explain why their way was better.
>
>But the numbers ruled.
>
>Why did the guys with the cars and phonebooks win?
>
>Accountability.

I disagree on several points but mostly this one.
A good builder will stand behind his product and a poor one won't.

Why did the guys with cars and phonebooks win?

The only reason is cost.

If a builder wasn't saving money using contractors, you can bet he
would still have 15 guys on his payroll.

>Under the old way of doing things you could not dodge your
>responsibility because every dodge showed up in the next step and you
>would have to deal with it - or one of your fellow employess would.
>
>This kept things honest and true.
>
>Did the old way build better houses? You bet your ass it did.

You're not comparing apples to apples though.
I've been around a long time too and I believe that the materials used
in homes today (again mostly due to cost) has as much to do with the
quality of homes being built as the craftsmanship. You can still
find good tradesmen, if you look and can afford them, but they all use
the same crappy material.
When was the last time you saw 3/4" planking (run on an angle) used
for a subfloor on a new home and then 3/4 solid hardwood throughout?
When was the last time you saw 3/4" planking used for roof decking on
a new home? When was the last time you saw cast iron drain lines in
a new home? Even copper water pipes are becoming more rare even in
upscale homes. If we built homes today using the same old school
materials we would have much better homes and I would suggest this
would certainly close the gap in quality between then and now.

>Could an old timey builder compete in the current market?
>
>Nope.

I agree.

>Customers want their square feet. They have never been raised to
>understand the quality involved in a righteous home.

I agree here too.

>But the system sucks.

Maybe but I've never met a framer that I would want to trim my
house...not even framers that had 20 years of experience when I
started over 25 years ago. In my early days I also worked for and
around a few old school guys who tried to do it all. Some things they
were very good at and some things.... not so much. Your experience
must have been different.

This is an interesting discussion but it may all be moot since we may
not get to build any more new homes in this economy anyway.

Mike O.

On Nov 10, 10:40=A0pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Mike O." wrote
>
> > This is an interesting discussion but it may all be moot since we may
> > not get to build any more new homes in this economy anyway.
>
> Hell, I've got one in the bidding stage, and another lined up behind that
> one ... I'm not counting my chickens, mind you, but I'll keep building as
> long as I'm able and someone wants to pay ... or until youngest daughter
> gets out of college and bass boats become more affordable, which ever com=
es
> first. :)
>
> Speaking of "The Building Bidness", and once again ... anyone, pro or diy=
,
> with any interest in home building, should be required to read "House" by
> Tracy Kidder. It's been years, but I still cherish the overall read, whic=
h
> explores every angle and POV.
>
> As one pundit put it about "House" ... this construction project is the
> framework for exploring what happens when we put a running meter on a
> dream."
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 10/22/08
> KarlC@ (the obvious)

I think what happened is the dream changed. My mother was raised with
the idea that a house was a home, something she should get as soon as
possible, with as small a mortgage as possible, with as large a down
payment as possible.

I felt the same way, though I put myself in circumstances that made
the whole deal impossible until something over 20 years ago.

But others, no. Buy it as an investment, fewest bucks in the bucket
wins, flip it in 2-3 years, and do it over again, larger.

That does not make for carefully examined construction. It makes for a
carefully examined payment book.

On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:58:49 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"Tom Watson" wrote
>> There are a fair number of guys around here that this will resonate
>> with.
>
><snip of a world class lesson in perception>
>
>> But the system sucks.
>
>I'm resonating ... and you hit the nail on the head (a rare occurrence these
>days, literally and figuratively).


You know Swing, I'm not quite old enough yet, I still have babies to
raise for a few years, but I could grab a couple of trades guys of
similar bent and move our asses out to your country and build houses
old timey.

It would be a wonderful way to end my career. Like full circle.

I've been involved in a couple of projects where it's almost been an
All Star Team of mechanics on a building. It was like making music.

I'd like to repeat that.








Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:28:13 -0500, Tom Watson <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Shortly after this sweet indoctrination (which I have been eternally
>grateful for) the model of how to build houses changed.
>The builder went from being a man who had worked himself up through
>the trades to being a guy with a phone and a fancy car.
>
>He hired subcontractors for everything and had almost nobody on his
>payroll.
>
>There was some tension there for awhile as the old line guys tried to
>explain why their way was better.
>
>But the numbers ruled.
>
>Why did the guys with the cars and phonebooks win?
>
>Accountability.

I disagree on several points but mostly this one.
A good builder will stand behind his product and a poor one won't.

Why did the guys with cars and phonebooks win?

The only reason is cost.

If a builder wasn't saving money using contractors, you can bet he
would still have 15 guys on his payroll.

>Under the old way of doing things you could not dodge your
>responsibility because every dodge showed up in the next step and you
>would have to deal with it - or one of your fellow employess would.
>
>This kept things honest and true.
>
>Did the old way build better houses? You bet your ass it did.

You're not comparing apples to apples though.
I've been around a long time too and I believe that the materials used
in homes today (again mostly due to cost) has as much to do with the
quality of homes being built as the craftsmanship. You can still
find good tradesmen, if you look and can afford them, but they all use
the same crappy material.
When was the last time you saw 3/4" planking (run on an angle) used
for a subfloor on a new home and then 3/4 solid hardwood throughout?
When was the last time you saw 3/4" planking used for roof decking on
a new home? When was the last time you saw cast iron drain lines in
a new home? Even copper water pipes are becoming more rare even in
upscale homes. If we built homes today using the same old school
materials we would have much better homes and I would suggest this
would certainly close the gap in quality between then and now.

>Could an old timey builder compete in the current market?
>
>Nope.

I agree.

>Customers want their square feet. They have never been raised to
>understand the quality involved in a righteous home.

I agree here too.

>But the system sucks.

Maybe but I've never met a framer that I would want to trim my
house...not even framers that had 20 years of experience when I
started over 25 years ago. In my early days I also worked for and
around a few old school guys who tried to do it all. Some things they
were very good at and some things.... not so much. Your experience
must have been different.

This is an interesting discussion but it may all be moot since we may
not get to build any more new homes in this economy anyway.

Mike O.

On Nov 13, 7:34=A0am, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
[snipped for brevity]

> the consumer is stopping the spending, and the
> recession is getting much worse.
>
http://www.juggling.org/pics/Pics/herman2.gif

I agree with that view.

"Lee Michaels" wrote
>
> "charlie" wrote
>>
>> i've toured the nearby wright mansion/school in scottsdale, az. from
>> uncomfortable furniture (that couldn't be changed out), to low ceilings,
>> to odd angularities, to thin windows/walls with not much insulation, it's
>> not much better.
>>
> I know. My wife loves everything Frank Loyd Wright. We have numerous books
> etc, that detail his work. Along with various accounts of people who
> lived in his houses. Many of the houses were cold and hard to heat.
> Falling Water was falling into the creek and had to be rescued with big
> bucks because he did not use reinforced concrete for the support beams.
>
> I personally love the way his stuff LOOKS. The function is something
> else. I never understood why he insisted on uncomfortable furniture. It
> is very much an artist perspective. Beauty is in the visual presentation.
> The human needs are not really addressed. And as occupants in his art, we
> are all expected to suffer. For art's sake.

IMNSHO, FLW ushered in the Idiot Age ... women should thank their lucky
stars he wasn't designing tampons.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Somebody wrote:

> This is an interesting discussion but it may all be moot since we
> may
> not get to build any more new homes in this economy anyway.

SFWIW, we deal with manufacturers of materials for the building
industy.

One customer, a manufacturer of PVC pipe, indicates current production
is in the 40% of normal range.

Another, an MDF manufacturer started cutting back on production in the
Mar/April time frame.

It's going to take a while to clean things up.

Lew

"Tom Watson" wrote
> There are a fair number of guys around here that this will resonate
> with.

<snip of a world class lesson in perception>

> But the system sucks.

I'm resonating ... and you hit the nail on the head (a rare occurrence these
days, literally and figuratively).

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Mike Marlow" wrote

> Well - if old is better then we should bemoan the death of the leaded
> water pipe.

Unfortunately, resistance to change lags technology and conservation efforts
and is an absolute bitch to overcome when entrenched in bureaucracy.

Case in point ... recently wanted to use PEX for a specific purpose, but our
municipal code here won't allow it.

Outfitted a new home with multiple, "whole house" gas tankless hot water
heaters, one for up, one for down, and during the design stage it dawned on
me that a simple, easily built "manifold system" would be just the thing for
efficient point to point hot water distribution using these larger tankless
heaters ... PEX would have made that simple, cost effective, and a helluva
lot more efficient getting hot water point to point than what we ended up
being _forced_ to implement.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

-MIKE- wrote:
>>> I've been around as long as most of the seasoned critters here, and
>>> I've never seen this. Maybe it's a regional thing? Either way, I'm
>>> not at all sure I would prize 3/4 planking on a diagonal over 3/4
>>> plywood.
>> I think it was a regional thing. That said, fastener pullout and
>> pullthrough tests indicate that planking on a diagonal does far better
>> than either plywood or OSB when nailing down hardwood.
>>
>
> It goes without saying that a fastener is going to hold better in solid
> wood.
> But is there a rash of fastener pullout happening in hardwood floors?
> (seriously, not facetious)

Minor fastener pullout over time is one of the causes of squeaky floors.

Chris

Amen, Tom. I always worked commercial, but same story. I like to
tell that the same guys dug the ditches and hung the last brass
doorknob. Electricians, masons,HVAC, and plumbers were usually
the only subs on the job.

When did I have to decide if I needed a finish carpenter, form
carpenter, or computer flooring carpenter? I guess it just
evolved, but I agree there were better buildings built back when.
Every carpenter could finish a bit of concrete or set concealed
hinges in a walnut trimmed Forms & Surfaces door, and probably had
the tools with him to do it.

--
______________________________
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)
[email protected]



"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> There are a fair number of guys around here that this will
> resonate
> with.
>
> When I went to work for my first GC as a Carpenter's Helper, he
> had
> his own electrician, his own plumber, his own block and stucco
> guy,
> his own carpenters - all this was in-house. Little did I know
> that I
> was observing the death of that way of building homes.
>
> As carpenters we were there from the setting of the batter
> boards to
> the turnover of the keys to the owner. Sometimes we
> participated in
> the site work.
>
> As carpenters we did the layout and participated in the concrete
> flatwork. If there were concrete stairs, we formed them. We
> framed,
> we roofed, we guttered and downspouted, and we sheetrocked, we
> hung
> doors and trimmed. We also painted. We put the windows in, and
> the
> floors, and the stairs, and the kitchen cabinets, and we laid
> the tile
> or stone in the entry. If there were to be bookcases - we made
> them -
> onsite.
>
> Shortly after this sweet indoctrination (which I have been
> eternally
> grateful for) the model of how to build houses changed.
>
> The builder went from being a man who had worked himself up
> through
> the trades to being a guy with a phone and a fancy car.
>
> He hired subcontractors for everything and had almost nobody on
> his
> payroll.
>
> There was some tension there for awhile as the old line guys
> tried to
> explain why their way was better.
>
> But the numbers ruled.
>
> Why did the guys with the cars and phonebooks win?
>
> Accountability.
>
>
> Under the old way of doing things you could not dodge your
> responsibility because every dodge showed up in the next step
> and you
> would have to deal with it - or one of your fellow employess
> would.
>
> This kept things honest and true.
>
> Did the old way build better houses? You bet your ass it did.
>
>
> Could an old timey builder compete in the current market?
>
> Nope.
>
>
> Customers want their square feet. They have never been raised
> to
> understand the quality involved in a righteous home.
>
> They want their square feet.
>
>
> I'm not complaining all that much. I've made a pretty good
> living in
> the past by trimming out million dollar plus houses the way they
> should have been trimmed in the first place.
>
> But the system sucks.
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Tom Watson
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

"Mike Marlow" wrote:

> Well - if old is better then we should bemoan the death of the
> leaded water pipe.

Here in Los Angeles, it is estimated that as many as 35,000 water
fountains in the school district have elevated lead levels.

SOP specifies that these fountains are to be flushed every day before
the start of school.

Doesn't always happen.

A local TV station has been making an investigative piece out of it.

> Maybe we should forgo Romex and go back to post and wire?

Romex was approved when my house was built; however, union electricans
would not install it.

As a result, the house was built with knob and tube wiring.

Of course, circuit breaker load centers were considered the latest and
greatest back then.

Fortunately, there have been a few changes over the years.

Lew

charlie wrote:

> it's pretty hard to throw away the plumbing or electrical system in your
> house, let alone go to the store to buy a new one. not too many people i
> know who throw away a relatively new car and get a new one.

I saw this fairly regularly...either through leasing or else selling
their old car and getting a new one every few years.

Gets expensive quick though.

Chris

"Charlie Self"

> I think what happened is the dream changed. My mother was raised with
> the idea that a house was a home, something she should get as soon as
> possible, with as small a mortgage as possible, with as large a down
> payment as possible.
>
> I felt the same way, though I put myself in circumstances that made
> the whole deal impossible until something over 20 years ago.
>
> But others, no. Buy it as an investment, fewest bucks in the bucket
> wins, flip it in 2-3 years, and do it over again, larger.
>
> That does not make for carefully examined construction. It makes for a
> carefully examined payment book.

Don't get me started ...

Part of the "dream" changed due to the fact that a 'house as a home' has
been subverted by local taxing authorities into a source of increasing
revenue. For all practical/legal purposes you no longer own your home, you
are renting it from the government, who uses it as a cash cow.

Just stop paying your yearly rent (property taxes) and see how long you
retain "ownership" of _your_ "home".

In addition, if it happens that your "home" is in an area that the "real
estate" industry has touted as desirable, and thus driven up real estate
property values beyond reason, forget about staying in it after your
retirement without your estate being subjected to usurious interest on any
old age deferral the benevolent taxing authority may grant out of the
goodness of their heart.

Once again we have allowed ourselves to be screwed by our elected
representatives who have managed to create a situation whereby they are not
accountable for an increase in the tax rate to the electorate, but, instead,
can increase taxes (without representation) by virtue of the creation of an
"appraisal district", which increases the appraised value, and thus your
taxes, based on transactions run ever higher by the greed of the "real
estate" industry.

After all, the sheeple get what they deserve ... fleeced.

For, like sheep, that is ultimately their purpose ... insofar as government
is concerned.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Lee Michaels wrote:
> "Swingman" wrote
>
>> "Mike Marlow" wrote
>>
>>> Well - if old is better then we should bemoan the death of the leaded
>>> water pipe.
>> Unfortunately, resistance to change lags technology and conservation
>> efforts and is an absolute bitch to overcome when entrenched in
>> bureaucracy.
>>
>> Case in point ... recently wanted to use PEX for a specific purpose, but
>> our municipal code here won't allow it.
>>
>> Outfitted a new home with multiple, "whole house" gas tankless hot water
>> heaters, one for up, one for down, and during the design stage it dawned
>> on me that a simple, easily built "manifold system" would be just the
>> thing for efficient point to point hot water distribution using these
>> larger tankless heaters ... PEX would have made that simple, cost
>> effective, and a helluva lot more efficient getting hot water point to
>> point than what we ended up being _forced_ to implement.
>>
>
> I have heard about this.
>
> Hasn't PEX been used for hot water distribution for many years in Europe?
>
>
>
It's been allowed in Arizona for at least 15 years 'cause it's in my 15
year old house as well as every house in the neighborhood.

"J. Clarke" wrote:

> You've never actually installed the old stuff, have you?

No, being in the industry made finding the good stuff NBD.

Lew

Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> Did the old way build better houses? You bet your ass it did.
>
>

Not always! There has always been crappy construction, done with an eye
toward profit rather than quality, just as there have always been
customers who want (or need) quantity over quality. I used to spend
time in a lovely little house near the beach that had the second floor
framed with 2x4 joists on 24" centers. The joists were also notched for
the grooved lath that held the house wiring. The second floor was like
trampoline! If they hadn't been relatively straight-grained virgin
Douglas fir they probably wouldn't have lasted a year.

When my parents bought their latest house the kitchen had been remodeled
with custom-built cabinets. They were pretty ugly, looking like they
were built of oak flooring. Guess what? The kitchen was remodeled by a
flooring contractor! At any rate, when my folks ripped out the old
kitchen, they found that the slightly-springy second floor was supported
by 4x4's on 4-foot centers! Not only that, when my dad was tearing out
the old wallboard he found three live electrical wires that had been
merely cut off and left to hang inside the walls. Now that's attention
to quality.

I have rehabbed a fair amount of old furniture, and I know that you know
that there is a lot of very poor craftsmanship behind those drawer
fronts and under the upholstery, and very cheap materials.

I think your safety glasses are getting a little too rosy. People are
people. Some like their jobs, are good at them, and care about the
results. Some customers know good work and are willing to pay for it.
But there are just as many people, and maybe more, that only care about
short-term profits, are only punching the clock, need something right
now at a low price, are only going to use it for a little while and get
rid of it, etc.

If you look around, you'll find that actually, housing today may not be
as charming as in the past, but in general is much safer and more
energy-efficient. Also, in general, buildings today are not meant to
last forever, so why invest excessive amounts of labor and materials in
them? If the customers decide at some point that keeping buidlings
around is better than always ripping down and rebuilding, then the "old
ways" may come back, at least in terms of high-quality craftsmanship and
materials.

But don't hold your breath.

Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote in news:4fhsu5-u9e.ln1
@ozzie.tundraware.com:

I completely understand your feelings about the below. I feel the same
way, i.e. If you don't have the backup, or might not have in a downturn,
don't go into debt if you can possibly avoid it.

> Here's what I don't understand:
>
> How can you be on the public dole and think you should take
> out a loan on a house.

As you have read here, people asking for a mortgage (for a house they
planned to buy and could nicely afford) were asked by the banker why they
didn't buy a much more expensive house since they qualified for it.
IMNSHO that constitutes something close to enabling irresponsible
financial transactions.

> How can you earn $N per year, and be $N/2 in credit card debt?

I don't know. Trying to live at the level I'm entitled to, despite being
out of work longer than expected? It might be easier to get there if
you're not very careful, and if your home is going to be worth much more
next year, what's the problem? Note that I'm not really advocating
this!!!!


> How does any responsible person see a flat screen TV, a luxury
> car, a fabulous vacation, a second home, or a boat as an
> entitlement?

See above

> How is it that it's wrong to bail out Wall Street (it is), but
> not wrong to bail out the lazy, the greedy, and those lacking
> fiscal self-control on Main Street - cuz, you know what, they're
> both flat out wrong.

It has something to do with keeping the economy going. Don't you
remember how the economists were saying that despite the slowdown then
and then, the economy surprisingly wasn't going into recessions since the
consumers kept on spending? Well, now with the fear mongering even
greater than necessary, the consumer is stopping the spending, and the
recession is getting much worse.

I don't have any solutions ...
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"J. Clarke" wrote:

> Uh, Lew, even in the '60s many electricians, and non-electrcians for
> that matter, were suspicious of Romex, which prior to that time had
> been pretty crappy and was miserable stuff to work with besides.
> Once
> they got experience with the modern type that was two
> plastic-insulated conductors in a plastic sheath that was both
> reliable and easy to work with and compared to the older stuff just
> reeked of quality most changed their tune quickly, but in '63 that
> type would be pretty new.

No problem installing Romex in a non-union area.

Lew

RE: Subject

All together now, can we say, "Levittown"?

Lew

On Nov 10, 11:42=A0pm, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]>
wrote:

> I'm not an advocate of newer is better, but I'm also not an advocate of
> older is better. =A0That's usually the domain of the romantics.

Very well said.

> Mine has been the same as yours. =A0The romantics like to remember that o=
ne
> fellow who really could do it all, and attribute those skills to everyone
> back then. =A0But... I am old enough to remember a lot of those old timer=
s -
> when they were old timers back then. =A0Seldom was there really a jack of=
all
> trades that was a master of all of them.

I couldn't agree more. Since I have been making my living doing
construction work I have been exposed to all manner of craftsmen.
Some good, some not so good.

There are a few guys that can do a lot of things well, but seem to
excel at one aspect of construction. They will tell you what trade
they consider themselves.

But in all my years, I never met anyone that was a complete expert in
all facets of construction work. The guy running the backhoe to dig
sewer lines has never gone inside the house and put up stain grade
crown molding. I've never seen an electrician install a parquet
floor, or a plumber installing a three ply roof.

They may do those things somewhere, but I haven't seen any of them do
it on any of the commercial or residential jobs I have worked.

It seems that a lot of folks have the fanciful ideas of the old
craftsman that could do anything aren't actually in the trades
themselves. A tradesman/craftsman will certainly use a different set
of standards than will a person not completely familiar with the
different trade standards.

Robert

On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 00:05:31 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Nov 12, 12:05 am, Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>SNIP of other true statements...
>
>> But the universities pound the message of "If your kid is not a
>> college grad, they'll never succeed" message into anyone who will hear
>> them. (It no doubt annoys their fully tenured faculties that the
>> aforementioned plumber makes more than the dean of their college.) We
>> all have our "thing". Our job as parents is to help our kids find that
>> thing and encourage them to pursue it. Sadly, there is a cultural and
>> academic stigma attached to people who work with their hands.
>
>It hasn't happened in the last few years, but there have been many
>times I heard parents talking to their kids when I switched from
>commercial work to residential.
>
>They would ask with sincerity, or with a downright sneer in their
>voice: "Do you want to wind up like those guys in there? Is that what
>you want? If that's the case, you might as well start flipping
>burgers now if that's all you want out of your life. We thought you
>wanted more."
>
>Heard it more than once.
>
>I even had a homeowner that had a son that was really interested in
>working in construction. He wanted me to hire his son for a summer so
>I could dog the hell out of him to make him stay in college. He
>actually asked me to do that, so that I could make sure his son didn't
>wind up like me.
>
>No insult there, eh?
>
>And how many times did I hear in my youth "well, the difference
>between you and me Robert, is that I make my living with my head and
>you use your hands." That statement alone should let you know how
>arrogant and stupid the educators of our country have become.
>
>Everything you posted is true. Kids/teenagers are taught by parents,
>educators and hammered with peer pressure that it is shameful, or a
>last resort to make your living with your hands these days.
>
>A sad comment on our society in my opinion.
>
>Robert


Here is where we come to the core of the problem.

I'm actually not smart enough to have helped create the current
financial mess.

You need an MBA to do that kind of damage.

I'm not smart enough to understand how I can make a loan to a person
who has no hope of paying it back and call that a good day at work.

I'm not smart enough to loan money to a builder who has one foot in
the financial grave and think that I have done a good deed that day.

I'm not smart enough to give money to a company that has already
proved themselves to be improvident.

I guess I just don't understand finance.

What I do understand is that my house and my vehicles are paid for.

I do understand that my eleven and sixteen year old children can go to
whatever college they are fortunate enough to get into.

I do understand that the only reason that I showed up to work today
was to make sure that my wife would have a comfortable retirement -
because I will surely die before her because I have nothing left to
worry about.

That's all I know.




Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>
>Customers want their square feet. They have never been raised to
>understand the quality involved in a righteous home.
>
>They want their square feet.

Unfortunately, my neighborhood has been infected with McMansions. They buy
perfectly good houses and drive a bulldozer through them. Then they put up
really big crap. They are just finishing one next door. 8500 sq ft. My wife
and I walked through it today. I was appalled. While many of the materials
were expensive, the workmanship was awful. 1/8" gaps in trim, blotchy stain,
sloppy paint...

I am a volunteer electrician for Habitat for Humanity. We don't tolerate that
kind of work and the house is 1/30 the price. Our houses aren't big, they
aren't fancy, but they are honest.

-- Doug

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 05:35:30 -0600, "DanG" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Every carpenter could finish a bit of concrete or set concealed
>hinges in a walnut trimmed Forms & Surfaces door, and probably had
>the tools with him to do it.

This was never really true. Sure, every carpenter was expected to do
everything, but most of them were not terribly skilled at all of it.
When I was doing a lot of remodeling work I was into a lot of houses
built around 1900. There was some very good work in them and a lot of
rather shoddy work, sometimes in the same house. The truth is that
even in those days there were guys who specialized in certain things
simply because they were more skilled at them. That specialization
actually goes back thousands of years.

I think the main difference in quality is that the cost of doing it
right has risen to the point it isn't worth doing for most people.

--
"We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and bring something to kill"

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

On Nov 11, 2:38=A0pm, Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote:
> <SNIP>
>
> > The unfortunate thing about our educational system is the lack
> > of "trade schools". =A0If you want to learn problem solving and
> > develop discipline and creative thinking, engineering and computer
> > science aren't the only place to develop those skills. =A0Just hand
> > a pair of metal shears and some galvy sheet to an engineer and
> > ask them to make a rain gutter down spout. =A0Or better yet, have
> > them build a set of stairs, with a landing - then do the hand rails
> > for it.
>
> I have an uncle who owns a machine shop. =A0He is always looking
> for machinists. =A0So much so that, in the past, he's paid the
> fees for kids with promise to *go* to trade school. =A0Guess what?
> They can't hack it. =A0Specifically, they can't handle the math
> (algebra and trig) that are pretty much a necessity for any
> working machinist.
>
> --
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-- -
> Tim Daneliuk =A0 =A0 [email protected]
> PGP Key: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

I have a young guy working for me who has all the work habits a boss
could ask for. He's on time, works all day, even unsupervised. Never
been in trouble, not a party fiend, 20 years old, wants to marry his
girl, etc.
Can't hack basic trig. I mean very basic trig. How on earth he ever
made it through high-school, baffles me. He doesn't get that half of
1/8 is a 1/16. And it doesn't matter if he was raised on metric.
"Two little lines to the left of the bigger line" is all I can get out
of him."

I would pay for him to learn.

Mike O. wrote:
> When was the last time you saw 3/4" planking (run on an angle) used
> for a subfloor on a new home and then 3/4 solid hardwood throughout?
> When was the last time you saw 3/4" planking used for roof decking on
> a new home? When was the last time you saw cast iron drain lines in
> a new home? Even copper water pipes are becoming more rare even in
> upscale homes. If we built homes today using the same old school
> materials we would have much better homes and I would suggest this
> would certainly close the gap in quality between then and now.
>

I can't tell if this paragraph is a joke.

Are squeaky floors and root-filled sewer lines indicative of quality
construction?

I have a 40 year old house and I'm about two seconds away from ripping
up the plank flooring and gluing down OSB. I'm about 3 seconds aways
from tearing out these crappy single paned windows. I'm about four
seconds from plying off the roof, (after running some lights up in my
attic and seeing what passed for rafters and the rickety bracing those
fine "craftsmen" installed) and installing trusses.

It was only 13 years ago that I built my own first home. At that point
board lumber was still much less expensive that engineered lumber. If I
had waited even 5 years, it would've been close to even. I wouldn't
have though twice about using those new fangled materials like I-joists,
floor trusses, laminated beams.

I agree with you about the cost aspect, but it's still all about skill,
craftsmanship, and pride in your work.



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"charlieb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
...
> The unfortunate thing about our educational system is the lack
> of "trade schools".
...
> charlie b

that alone will be the downfall of the US. sure we need a lot of college
graduates in high tech fields, but people have to live somewhere and get
things repaired. without training in these fields, where do the majority of
people to do these tasks come from, as existing people in the trades die off
and aren't available to teach any more.

regards,
charlie

"PHT" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:19:47 -0700, charlie wrote:
>
>> "charlieb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> ...
>>> The unfortunate thing about our educational system is the lack
>>> of "trade schools".
>> ...
>>> charlie b
>>
>> that alone will be the downfall of the US. sure we need a lot of college
>> graduates in high tech fields, but people have to live somewhere and get
>> things repaired. without training in these fields, where do the majority
>> of
>> people to do these tasks come from, as existing people in the trades die
>> off
>> and aren't available to teach any more.
>>
>> regards,
>> charlie
>
> Well charlie, you can blame a lot on today's society. It's not a matter of
> getting something repaired anymore. Just throw it away and buy a new one.
> Yes, this is going to be part of the reason for the downfall of the U.S.
> I believe, that in the schools of today it's more important to get the
> kid's to graduation so the stats are high than what is taught and learned.
> Yet the U.S. cannot understand why the people in foreign countries
> out-shine the U.S. kids in math and sciences.
>
> Paul H.
>
> --
> The only dumb question, is the one not asked
>
>
> http://www.USENETHOST.com 100% Uncensored , 100% Anonymous, 5$/month
> Only!

it's pretty hard to throw away the plumbing or electrical system in your
house, let alone go to the store to buy a new one. not too many people i
know who throw away a relatively new car and get a new one.

>> I've been around as long as most of the seasoned critters here, and
>> I've never seen this. Maybe it's a regional thing? Either way, I'm
>> not at all sure I would prize 3/4 planking on a diagonal over 3/4
>> plywood.
>
> I think it was a regional thing. That said, fastener pullout and
> pullthrough tests indicate that planking on a diagonal does far better
> than either plywood or OSB when nailing down hardwood.
>

It goes without saying that a fastener is going to hold better in solid
wood.
But is there a rash of fastener pullout happening in hardwood floors?
(seriously, not facetious)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Robatoy wrote:
> We have a residential area here which was 'thrown up' about 40 years
> ago. It went up really fast and cheap. The was a boom in the petro-
> chemical expansion so a few contractors thought it would be a good
> idea to offer some cheap housing. They had some of the local codes
> amended to get this done.
>
> We now. affectionately, refer to that sub division as Cardboard Acres.
> You'd woner if I was pulling your leg if I were to tell you some
> details...try these:
> Aluminum wiring
> 2 x 2 studs, 24" on centre covered with 1/2" drywall for internal
> walls (We kid around that you don't really need doors, just walk
> through them.)
> 2-1/2" baseboard.
> Res-core cabinets with MacTac finishes.
> I have seen one pocket door; a single slab of 3/4" plywood. Period.
>
> We are talking about pure shit here, people.
>

Did at least cover up the wheels and hitch?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "charlie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>> that alone will be the downfall of the US. sure we need a lot of college
>> graduates in high tech fields, but people have to live somewhere and get
>> things repaired. without training in these fields, where do the majority
>> of people to do these tasks come from, as existing people in the trades
>> die off and aren't available to teach any more.
>>
>
> I'm curious why people think this way. Around here the trades are
> suffering from a poor economy right now, but not from a lack of new blood
> coming into the trades. The unions are doing well attracting new blood,
> and the non-union jobs equally so. The trades seem to be doing pretty
> well in terms of continuing their own existence except in areas where a
> trade does not really serve a purpose anymore, besides in a specialty
> sense - plaster guys for example. Just not a lot of call for them
> anymore. Can't expect that trade to thrive anymore.
>
> --
>
> -Mike-
> [email protected]

my wife was a teacher for the public school system (27 years). that's simply
not encouraged anymore, and i'd expect the situation you are seeing to be
changing when the current middle school kids are getting out of high school,
in about 5-8 years.

[email protected] wrote:
> On Nov 12, 12:05 am, Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> SNIP of other true statements...
>
>> But the universities pound the message of "If your kid is not a
>> college grad, they'll never succeed" message into anyone who will
>> hear them. (It no doubt annoys their fully tenured faculties that
>> the
>> aforementioned plumber makes more than the dean of their college.)
>> We
>> all have our "thing". Our job as parents is to help our kids find
>> that thing and encourage them to pursue it. Sadly, there is a
>> cultural and academic stigma attached to people who work with their
>> hands.
>
> It hasn't happened in the last few years, but there have been many
> times I heard parents talking to their kids when I switched from
> commercial work to residential.
>
> They would ask with sincerity, or with a downright sneer in their
> voice: "Do you want to wind up like those guys in there? Is that
> what
> you want? If that's the case, you might as well start flipping
> burgers now if that's all you want out of your life. We thought you
> wanted more."
>
> Heard it more than once.
>
> I even had a homeowner that had a son that was really interested in
> working in construction. He wanted me to hire his son for a summer
> so
> I could dog the hell out of him to make him stay in college. He
> actually asked me to do that, so that I could make sure his son
> didn't
> wind up like me.
>
> No insult there, eh?
>
> And how many times did I hear in my youth "well, the difference
> between you and me Robert, is that I make my living with my head and
> you use your hands." That statement alone should let you know how
> arrogant and stupid the educators of our country have become.
>
> Everything you posted is true. Kids/teenagers are taught by
> parents,
> educators and hammered with peer pressure that it is shameful, or a
> last resort to make your living with your hands these days.
>
> A sad comment on our society in my opinion.

Yeah. When I was in high school I told my parents that I wanted to be
a mechanic. They went ballistic. Then I went to college and it
pretty much ruined me.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Jedd Haas" wrote:
>
>> The "first generation" of Romex may not have been all that great.
>
> This was current generation Romex.
>
> Labor unions were at the height of their power back then.(1963).
>
> It was just one of many "feather bedding" techniques employed by the
> trades back then.
>
> Back then you had "union" and "non-union" contractors.
>
> Made for an interesting like in an AFofL/CIO community.

Uh, Lew, even in the '60s many electricians, and non-electrcians for
that matter, were suspicious of Romex, which prior to that time had
been pretty crappy and was miserable stuff to work with besides. Once
they got experience with the modern type that was two
plastic-insulated conductors in a plastic sheath that was both
reliable and easy to work with and compared to the older stuff just
reeked of quality most changed their tune quickly, but in '63 that
type would be pretty new.

The stuff had existed since 1922 and been in the code since at least
1928, so electricians in '63 would have had ample (bad) experience of
it.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "J. Clarke" wrote:
>
>> Uh, Lew, even in the '60s many electricians, and non-electrcians
>> for
>> that matter, were suspicious of Romex, which prior to that time had
>> been pretty crappy and was miserable stuff to work with besides.
>> Once
>> they got experience with the modern type that was two
>> plastic-insulated conductors in a plastic sheath that was both
>> reliable and easy to work with and compared to the older stuff just
>> reeked of quality most changed their tune quickly, but in '63 that
>> type would be pretty new.
>
> No problem installing Romex in a non-union area.

You've never actually installed the old stuff, have you?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "J. Clarke" wrote:
>
>> You've never actually installed the old stuff, have you?
>
> No, being in the industry made finding the good stuff NBD.

Which is fine once the "good stuff" came out. If you ever have to
replace Romex from the '40s or '50s I think you'll see why it had a
bad reputation.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Douglas Johnson wrote:
> Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Customers want their square feet. They have never been raised to
>> understand the quality involved in a righteous home.
>>
>> They want their square feet.
>
> Unfortunately, my neighborhood has been infected with McMansions.
> They buy perfectly good houses and drive a bulldozer through them.
> Then they put up really big crap. They are just finishing one next
> door. 8500 sq ft. My wife and I walked through it today. I was
> appalled. While many of the materials were expensive, the
> workmanship was awful. 1/8" gaps in trim, blotchy stain, sloppy
> paint...
>
> I am a volunteer electrician for Habitat for Humanity. We don't
> tolerate that kind of work and the house is 1/30 the price. Our
> houses aren't big, they aren't fancy, but they are honest.

Friend of mine used to spend summers at her grandparents' antebellum
Southern mansion that is now a museum. She lives in the
Wright-disciple house her architect father designed and built. Her
neigbors are tearing down all the surrounding houses and putting up
McMansions and they don't have a clue why she thinks they're all
buffoons.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Douglas Johnson wrote:
>> Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Customers want their square feet. They have never been raised to
>>> understand the quality involved in a righteous home.
>>>
>>> They want their square feet.
>>
>> Unfortunately, my neighborhood has been infected with McMansions.
>> They buy perfectly good houses and drive a bulldozer through them.
>> Then they put up really big crap. They are just finishing one next
>> door. 8500 sq ft. My wife and I walked through it today. I was
>> appalled. While many of the materials were expensive, the
>> workmanship was awful. 1/8" gaps in trim, blotchy stain, sloppy
>> paint...
>>
>> I am a volunteer electrician for Habitat for Humanity. We don't
>> tolerate that kind of work and the house is 1/30 the price. Our
>> houses aren't big, they aren't fancy, but they are honest.
>
> Friend of mine used to spend summers at her grandparents' antebellum
> Southern mansion that is now a museum. She lives in the
> Wright-disciple house her architect father designed and built. Her
> neigbors are tearing down all the surrounding houses and putting up
> McMansions and they don't have a clue why she thinks they're all
> buffoons.
>
> --
> --
> --John
> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
>
>

you know, i've heard that wright disciple comment before, but i guess it all
depends on the disciple and how brainwashed they become.

my neighbor house is one such. besides a first floor with exposed beams at
5'10" off the finished floor, and building it directly in a wash that gets
4' of water through it about every 2 years, it was described by the previous
owner as having windows that shook and let the gusts blow through and empty
the dust out when it's windy.

i've toured the nearby wright mansion/school in scottsdale, az. from
uncomfortable furniture (that couldn't be changed out), to low ceilings, to
odd angularities, to thin windows/walls with not much insulation, it's not
much better.

i take that type of recommendation with a grain of salt now.

regards,
charlie
cave creek, az

charlie wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Douglas Johnson wrote:
>>> Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Customers want their square feet. They have never been raised to
>>>> understand the quality involved in a righteous home.
>>>>
>>>> They want their square feet.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, my neighborhood has been infected with McMansions.
>>> They buy perfectly good houses and drive a bulldozer through them.
>>> Then they put up really big crap. They are just finishing one
>>> next
>>> door. 8500 sq ft. My wife and I walked through it today. I was
>>> appalled. While many of the materials were expensive, the
>>> workmanship was awful. 1/8" gaps in trim, blotchy stain, sloppy
>>> paint...
>>>
>>> I am a volunteer electrician for Habitat for Humanity. We don't
>>> tolerate that kind of work and the house is 1/30 the price. Our
>>> houses aren't big, they aren't fancy, but they are honest.
>>
>> Friend of mine used to spend summers at her grandparents'
>> antebellum
>> Southern mansion that is now a museum. She lives in the
>> Wright-disciple house her architect father designed and built. Her
>> neigbors are tearing down all the surrounding houses and putting up
>> McMansions and they don't have a clue why she thinks they're all
>> buffoons.
>>
>> --
>> --
>> --John
>> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
>> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
>>
>>
>
> you know, i've heard that wright disciple comment before, but i
> guess
> it all depends on the disciple and how brainwashed they become.
>
> my neighbor house is one such. besides a first floor with exposed
> beams at 5'10" off the finished floor, and building it directly in a
> wash that gets 4' of water through it about every 2 years, it was
> described by the previous owner as having windows that shook and let
> the gusts blow through and empty the dust out when it's windy.
>
> i've toured the nearby wright mansion/school in scottsdale, az. from
> uncomfortable furniture (that couldn't be changed out), to low
> ceilings, to odd angularities, to thin windows/walls with not much
> insulation, it's not much better.
>
> i take that type of recommendation with a grain of salt now.

The difference between a Wright house and an ordinary house is that
the ordinary house may _have_ character but a Wright house _is_ a
character.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

charlie wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Douglas Johnson wrote:
>>> Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Customers want their square feet. They have never been raised to
>>>> understand the quality involved in a righteous home.
>>>>
>>>> They want their square feet.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, my neighborhood has been infected with McMansions.
>>> They buy perfectly good houses and drive a bulldozer through them.
>>> Then they put up really big crap. They are just finishing one
>>> next
>>> door. 8500 sq ft. My wife and I walked through it today. I was
>>> appalled. While many of the materials were expensive, the
>>> workmanship was awful. 1/8" gaps in trim, blotchy stain, sloppy
>>> paint...
>>>
>>> I am a volunteer electrician for Habitat for Humanity. We don't
>>> tolerate that kind of work and the house is 1/30 the price. Our
>>> houses aren't big, they aren't fancy, but they are honest.
>>
>> Friend of mine used to spend summers at her grandparents'
>> antebellum
>> Southern mansion that is now a museum. She lives in the
>> Wright-disciple house her architect father designed and built. Her
>> neigbors are tearing down all the surrounding houses and putting up
>> McMansions and they don't have a clue why she thinks they're all
>> buffoons.
>>
>> --
>> --
>> --John
>> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
>> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
>>
>>
>
> you know, i've heard that wright disciple comment before, but i
> guess
> it all depends on the disciple and how brainwashed they become.
>
> my neighbor house is one such. besides a first floor with exposed
> beams at 5'10" off the finished floor, and building it directly in a
> wash that gets 4' of water through it about every 2 years, it was
> described by the previous owner as having windows that shook and let
> the gusts blow through and empty the dust out when it's windy.
>
> i've toured the nearby wright mansion/school in scottsdale, az. from
> uncomfortable furniture (that couldn't be changed out), to low
> ceilings, to odd angularities, to thin windows/walls with not much
> insulation, it's not much better.
>
> i take that type of recommendation with a grain of salt now.

By the way, the granparents' house (or more specifically the yard) has
a Web site:

http://www.lockerlyarboretum.org/

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 21:18:35 -0600, Mike O. <[email protected]> wrote:



>
>Maybe but I've never met a framer that I would want to trim my
>house...not even framers that had 20 years of experience when I
>started over 25 years ago. In my early days I also worked for and
>around a few old school guys who tried to do it all. Some things they
>were very good at and some things.... not so much. Your experience
>must have been different.
>
>This is an interesting discussion but it may all be moot since we may
>not get to build any more new homes in this economy anyway.
>
>Mike O.


We weren't framers, Mike. We were carpenters.

That is the point that I am trying to get to.

When people respond by saying that the trade got fractionated into
framers, finishers, flooring guys, etc. - I reject that.

We were trained to be carpenters.

Carpenters laid out the site and did the framing and did the finish
and often did the paint in those days.

Accountability was the deal.

You could not dodge your responsibility because you were the guy to
pull off the next step.



Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Tom Watson wrote:
<SNIP>
>
> I'm not complaining all that much. I've made a pretty good living in
> the past by trimming out million dollar plus houses the way they
> should have been trimmed in the first place.
>
> But the system sucks.

Boy Howdy. I spent a some time as a callow yute as an assistant for
the local carpenter. He was, of the, ahem, old skool you describe.
*Everything* was perfect, square, plumb, and finished flawlessly, even
the parts no one could see. 'Funny thing was that he was faster than
anybody else in town - little or no rework.

Then I went to work repairing maritime electronics for another old time,
no BS, boss. He taught me useful things like turning the exterior screw
heads (that held cable clamps down) for that last tightening so the
slots would be vertical and thus the water would run out of them.

Those two guys taught me more in a handful of summers than 8+ years of
college ever did. And they didn't do it because they particularly
liked me or were taking me under their wing ... they did it because, well,
that's how it's *supposed* to be done. To this day, when I have to pry
something open in my fairly new house, I met with a host of small horrors
that would have gotten my biblical beast of burden kicked by either of
the aforementioned mentors.

P.S. No antenna or radar we ever installed - or better still, repaired after
someone else had installed it incorrectly - ever blew down or got filled
with water in the wretched conditions of the N. Pacific fishing grounds.
In at least one situation I can recall, the entire crew of a big ocean
going crabber survived because our radio worked to get the Guard to them
promptly in a storm. Being nice is way overrated. Insisting your
employees do thing properly every time is way more important ...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk [email protected]
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

Chris wrote:
> charlieb wrote:
> <snip>
>> The unfortunate thing about our educational system is the lack
>> of "trade schools". If you want to learn problem solving and develop
>> discipline and creative thinking, engineering and computer
>> science aren't the only place to develop those skills. Just hand
>> a pair of metal shears and some galvy sheet to an engineer and
>> ask them to make a rain gutter down spout. Or better yet, have
>> them build a set of stairs, with a landing - then do the hand rails
>> for it.
>>
>> Oh for the Good Old Daze?
>>
>> charlie b
>
> Not only lack of Trade Schools, but also the lack of people willing to
> take on apprentices. I have talked to several contractors where I live
> and they say they do not want to be bothered having to teach. They
> rather find skilled workers. This makes no sense to me.
>
> My son'n law who is a stone carver (does a lot of restoration work in
> D.C.) has taken on apprentices and they all end up leaving for one
> reason or another. Not the money side of it, but just they want to move
> to different areas or decide to go back to school for something else. So
> I can understand how this can be frustrating and why many contractors
> decide not to do it.
>
>
> Chris
>
>

There's another dimension to this. I am product of the collegiate
system and also briefly taught after grad school. There is
*tremendous* pressure to convince parents that their kids all need to
go to college. But the fact is that a university education isn't for
everyone. In no way am I saying this condescendingly. Some people are
great at theoretical math. Some people bend sheet metal with eerie
elegance. Shoving everyone into the academy does a great disservice to
people who's gifts lie in the trades, helping other people in social
services contexts, and so forth.

Jamming everyone into a strictly academic curriculum is unfair to the
students and bad for all of us. I depend a lot more on my local
plumber (who is really good) than I do the mathematician doing
manifold theory. Both have a place, but we should be encouraging our
kids to follow their gifts, not making the funding dreams of the
universities come true.

There is now considerable evidence - after nearly 50 years of research
- that academic "IQ" is highly correlated to language and mathematical
skills. These skills are innate - after billions spent and tons of
teaching theory, there has been precious little evidence you can take
people without those innate math and language skills and "teach" them.
At some level, you have this ability or you do not. By parallel
example, no amount of coaching would have made me an NBA star - it's
not in my DNA.

But the universities pound the message of "If your kid is not a
college grad, they'll never succeed" message into anyone who will hear
them. (It no doubt annoys their fully tenured faculties that the
aforementioned plumber makes more than the dean of their college.) We
all have our "thing". Our job as parents is to help our kids find that
thing and encourage them to pursue it. Sadly, there is a cultural and
academic stigma attached to people who work with their hands. This
will never change until professional academics - especially in the
administrative end of things - are forced to unclog their own sewers ...



--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk [email protected]
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:28:13 -0500, Tom Watson <[email protected]>
wrote:

>There are a fair number of guys around here that this will resonate
>with.
>
>When I went to work for my first GC as a Carpenter's Helper, he had
>his own electrician, his own plumber, his own block and stucco guy,
>his own carpenters - all this was in-house. Little did I know that I
>was observing the death of that way of building homes.
>
>As carpenters we were there from the setting of the batter boards to
>the turnover of the keys to the owner. Sometimes we participated in
>the site work.
>
>As carpenters we did the layout and participated in the concrete
>flatwork. If there were concrete stairs, we formed them. We framed,
>we roofed, we guttered and downspouted, and we sheetrocked, we hung
>doors and trimmed. We also painted. We put the windows in, and the
>floors, and the stairs, and the kitchen cabinets, and we laid the tile
>or stone in the entry. If there were to be bookcases - we made them -
>onsite.
>
>Shortly after this sweet indoctrination (which I have been eternally
>grateful for) the model of how to build houses changed.
>
>The builder went from being a man who had worked himself up through
>the trades to being a guy with a phone and a fancy car.
>
>He hired subcontractors for everything and had almost nobody on his
>payroll.
>
>There was some tension there for awhile as the old line guys tried to
>explain why their way was better.
>
>But the numbers ruled.
>
>Why did the guys with the cars and phonebooks win?
>
>Accountability.
>
>
>Under the old way of doing things you could not dodge your
>responsibility because every dodge showed up in the next step and you
>would have to deal with it - or one of your fellow employess would.
>
>This kept things honest and true.
>
>Did the old way build better houses? You bet your ass it did.
>
>
>Could an old timey builder compete in the current market?
>
>Nope.
>
>
>Customers want their square feet. They have never been raised to
>understand the quality involved in a righteous home.
>
>They want their square feet.
>
>
>I'm not complaining all that much. I've made a pretty good living in
>the past by trimming out million dollar plus houses the way they
>should have been trimmed in the first place.
>
>But the system sucks.
>
>
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Tom Watson
>http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/


PERZACKERY TAWM! the new system sucks!

skeez

In article <[email protected]>,
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Romex was approved when my house was built; however, union electricans
> would not install it.
>
> As a result, the house was built with knob and tube wiring.
>
> Of course, circuit breaker load centers were considered the latest and
> greatest back then.
>
> Fortunately, there have been a few changes over the years.

The "first generation" of Romex may not have been all that great.

My house is around 100 years old and has had at least five "generations"
of wiring installed.

The original wiring was knob and tube, some of which my electricians
were perfectly happy to connect to the new breaker panel they installed
when I moved in. It never caused a problem, but of course there wasn't
much load on it, only lights.

The second generation was these pairs of giant cables, some 3/4 inch
thick, with tiny wires wrapped in paper inside the thick rubber cable.
Some of this was tied into the knob and tube.

Then there was the first generation of Romex, which was a cloth covered
cable with a very thin (16 or 18 gauge) grounding wire.

Then the next generation of Romex was in a plastic jacket, but also with
the smaller ground wire.

Finally there was the modern Romex with all the wires the same size. In
case you're wondering, all the older stuff has been either disconnected
or removed entirely.

--
Jedd Haas - Artist - New Orleans, LA
http://www.gallerytungsten.com

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Mike O." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...

<snip>

>> When was the last time you saw cast iron drain lines in
>> a new home?
>
> Again - thankfully not in decades. The stuff is solid and it lasts a long
> time, but so does PVC at a fraction of the price. When was the last time
> you found the need for cast over PVC? I mean - in terms of durability,
> etc.

Have you ever heard a toilet being flushed using both? Big difference in
the noise level.

todd

On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 21:40:01 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> This is an interesting discussion but it may all be moot since we may
>> not get to build any more new homes in this economy anyway.
>
>Hell, I've got one in the bidding stage, and another lined up behind that
>one ... I'm not counting my chickens, mind you, but I'll keep building as
>long as I'm able and someone wants to pay ... or until youngest daughter
>gets out of college and bass boats become more affordable, which ever comes
>first. :)

We've been very busy until just recently. We have a few ahead us but
there are going to be spaces between. What we're starting to hear is
that the lenders are very stingy right now. Our builders are
telling us that instead of a couple weeks for people to get their
loans, it's taking two or three months. That's for people who will
obviously qualify and there are many more now who won't.

>Speaking of "The Building Bidness", and once again ... anyone, pro or diy,
>with any interest in home building, should be required to read "House" by
>Tracy Kidder. It's been years, but I still cherish the overall read, which
>explores every angle and POV.

I'll have to check it out.
I always get a kick out of the movie The Money Pit. Some things are a
bit exaggerated but I swear I've heard some of those lines on the job.

Mike O.

On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 08:52:14 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"-MIKE-" wrote
>
>> It was only 13 years ago that I built my own first home. At that point
>> board lumber was still much less expensive that engineered lumber. If I
>> had waited even 5 years, it would've been close to even. I wouldn't have
>> though twice about using those new fangled materials like I-joists, floor
>> trusses, laminated beams.
>
>Actually, and IME, the 70's, while not the beginning, was the era that
>shoddy home construction became so ubiquitous that those coming up at the
>time had never seen the difference.
>
>> I agree with you about the cost aspect, but it's still all about skill,
>> craftsmanship, and pride in your work.
>
>There ya go, Bro ... couldn't' agree more.


I spent a lot of time in my youth correcting the problems created by
the building boom that happened after the second world war.

Skimpy ply, 24" centers, 2 x 3 walls, etc.


It wasn't the seventies that did it.



Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

"Jedd Haas" wrote:

> The "first generation" of Romex may not have been all that great.

This was current generation Romex.

Labor unions were at the height of their power back then.(1963).

It was just one of many "feather bedding" techniques employed by the
trades back then.

Back then you had "union" and "non-union" contractors.

Made for an interesting like in an AFofL/CIO community.

Lew

"Tom Watson" wrote

> the 70's, while not the beginning, was the era that
>>shoddy home construction became so ubiquitous that those coming up at the
>>time had never seen the difference.

> It wasn't the seventies that did it.

Read that again ... ;)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

<[email protected]> wrote

> crown molding. I've never seen an electrician install a parquet
> floor, or a plumber installing a three ply roof.

LOL! ... no, but they will cut through one before you can say "Jack
Robinson"!

One of the $cariest $ights to me, as a builder who is always onsite, is an
electrician OR plumber pulling a Sawzall out of the truck ... especially
during trim out!!

... oh $hit!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"-MIKE-" wrote

> It was only 13 years ago that I built my own first home. At that point
> board lumber was still much less expensive that engineered lumber. If I
> had waited even 5 years, it would've been close to even. I wouldn't have
> though twice about using those new fangled materials like I-joists, floor
> trusses, laminated beams.

Actually, and IME, the 70's, while not the beginning, was the era that
shoddy home construction became so ubiquitous that those coming up at the
time had never seen the difference.

> I agree with you about the cost aspect, but it's still all about skill,
> craftsmanship, and pride in your work.

There ya go, Bro ... couldn't' agree more.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)