I know I'm going to get accused of trolling, but I am going to ask
anyway, in hopes that someone will give a serious answer.
Why do so many hobbyists use dovetail jigs? My experience is very
limited -- early in my participation in the woodworking hobby, and
with crappy equipment (Craftsman 1/4" router and Craftsman dovetail
jig) so maybe that is tainting my view. But I find cutting dovetails
by hand to be rewarding. And while my results are well shy of the
"gee-whiz" handcut DT's you see at a woodworking show, I can pull open
a file drawer in my desk and from two feet away not see the flaws in
the DTs. Looking at them, I remember fondly the satisfaction of doing
my first 1/2-blind dovetails. I don't think I would get that from
looking at precisely milled and "sterile" dovetails.
I understand the appeal of a jig for production work, where time is
money. Even as a hobbyist, I would be tempted for something like
drawers in cabinetry, where there is a lot of repetition. But for
recreational building of furniture, boxes etc., I don't get it. And
these jigs are pretty darned expensive.
Here's the rationales I see:
Production work where time is money
High-volume repetitive work, e.g, 24 identical drawers
Decorative (I'm tempted to say "gimmicky", but that is a matter of
taste) dovetails with contrasting wood layers, unusual shapes, etc.
[in another thread, Larry Bud said:] "I can understand why someone
would want to cut them by hand, but I don't have the patience or time
to learn to cut them equivalent to the quality of the D4."
Are there other appeals to the process of machining dovetails?
BTW, I am not a dedicated Neander, but I don't share Larry's goals of
having my hand-cut dovetails look machine-cut. And if I look at $400
for a D4 jig + $50+ for bushings and bits (assuming that a router
would not be an incremental cost), I could buy a medium quality
japanese dt saw, a set of medium quality chisels (if I didn't already
have them), layout and marking tools, and have $300+ left over for
practice lumber, which would be lots of fun. And the skills I develop
are not subject to limitations on thickness of wood, width or length
of workpiece, etc.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
I have the best saw, chisels and marking equipment and practiced,
practiced,
practiced, I have taken a couple of classes, watched Klaus's video and
still cannot cut dovetails to my satisfaction. If I had handcut the
dovetails for all the drawers I have built I would still be cutting
them.
Ted
alexy wrote:
> I know I'm going to get accused of trolling, but I am going to ask
> anyway, in hopes that someone will give a serious answer.
>
> Why do so many hobbyists use dovetail jigs? My experience is very
> limited -- early in my participation in the woodworking hobby, and
> with crappy equipment (Craftsman 1/4" router and Craftsman dovetail
> jig) so maybe that is tainting my view. But I find cutting dovetails
> by hand to be rewarding. And while my results are well shy of the
> "gee-whiz" handcut DT's you see at a woodworking show, I can pull open
> a file drawer in my desk and from two feet away not see the flaws in
> the DTs. Looking at them, I remember fondly the satisfaction of doing
> my first 1/2-blind dovetails. I don't think I would get that from
> looking at precisely milled and "sterile" dovetails.
>
> I understand the appeal of a jig for production work, where time is
> money. Even as a hobbyist, I would be tempted for something like
> drawers in cabinetry, where there is a lot of repetition. But for
> recreational building of furniture, boxes etc., I don't get it. And
> these jigs are pretty darned expensive.
>
> Here's the rationales I see:
> Production work where time is money
> High-volume repetitive work, e.g, 24 identical drawers
> Decorative (I'm tempted to say "gimmicky", but that is a matter of
> taste) dovetails with contrasting wood layers, unusual shapes, etc.
> [in another thread, Larry Bud said:] "I can understand why someone
> would want to cut them by hand, but I don't have the patience or time
> to learn to cut them equivalent to the quality of the D4."
>
> Are there other appeals to the process of machining dovetails?
>
> BTW, I am not a dedicated Neander, but I don't share Larry's goals of
> having my hand-cut dovetails look machine-cut. And if I look at $400
> for a D4 jig + $50+ for bushings and bits (assuming that a router
> would not be an incremental cost), I could buy a medium quality
> japanese dt saw, a set of medium quality chisels (if I didn't already
> have them), layout and marking tools, and have $300+ left over for
> practice lumber, which would be lots of fun. And the skills I develop
> are not subject to limitations on thickness of wood, width or length
> of workpiece, etc.
> --
> Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
alexy wrote:
>
> Trivially. It doesn't tell me what I am missing.
How about I got a Leigh jig for $100 out of the paper and haven't had
the time or money to build a nice bench yet to do my planing, sawing,
choping (chisels) with. So, for now I find the quick setup and ease of
use on the jig a piece of cake. And those dovetails look sweet (using
a Leigh with variable spaced dovetails does look 10x better than the
standard 1/4" crapsman jig and various wannabes out there).
I've used it to dovetail boards as long as 5 feet (the jig went on
cinder blocks on top of a table, that was fun :) I wouldn't have even
wanted to try that by hand.
But having said that I still hope to build a nice work bench someday (I
already have the vise hardware) and will be more than happy to do
handcut dovetails. Will I sell my jig? Probably not, it's too handy
to get rid of and at $100 I'm not likely to see another deal like that
again anytime soon.
Mike
Alexy,
Hand cutting dovetails is fun, and I do it on a few of my pieces. If I
hadn't watched Roy Underhill do it a bunch of times, I wouldn't have
had a clue. I can see that if I did it every day, I could almost get up
to production speed. However, I don't have enough comissions that
require them, and will probably never get up to speed. So I will
continue to use the jig for production work, and do a few custom jobs
along the way. I guess it is like hand planing boards, and hand cutting
miter joints.
robo hippy
alexy wrote:
> I know I'm going to get accused of trolling, but I am going to ask
> anyway, in hopes that someone will give a serious answer.
>
> Why do so many hobbyists use dovetail jigs? My experience is very
> limited -- early in my participation in the woodworking hobby, and
> with crappy equipment (Craftsman 1/4" router and Craftsman dovetail
> jig) so maybe that is tainting my view. But I find cutting dovetails
> by hand to be rewarding.
Because I want to make 4 drawers in an hour, not 2 weeks + the
countless hours honing my skills.
Where I work a couple of the folks I see as hobbiest woodworkers are
"weekend warriors". I see the competition at work, in their kids in the
families, everywhere. I attest a lot of it to the git-er-done phenomenon.
They have "X" amount of time to work on a project in a weekend or whatever
and they will do what it takes to complete a project in the time allocated.
As one of the earlier posters suggested that for some it is the results and
not the journey.he makes a good point.
My goal is to get out of what I do for a living now and have a tidy little
home shop business going in the next few years. I use fixtures for
consistency. I am working out a few stock items that will be a repetitive
sale delivering a consistent product. When I have the time I get out the
marking gauges and work on those skills too.
There are so many aspects of your conversation that apply beyond dovetails
that it in fact does appear you made a nice cast on this one....
Knothead
Phisherman wrote:
> I have a dovetail jig that I used for a couple years. When I learned
> the skill of cutting dovetails by hand I no longer use the jig. I can
> even cut dovetails on a skewed corner where most jigs can't even
> touch. Two weeks of practice is all it takes. It takes awhile to
> properly setup a dovetail jig and by that time I can be a long way
> handcutting them, although a jig will be much faster if there are many
> to cut.
With my D4, it literally takes 5 minutes to set it up to cut half
blind, or through dovetails. Takes much longer to mill the wood than
to cut the dovetails.
>I understand the appeal of a jig for production work, where time is
>money. Even as a hobbyist, I would be tempted for something like
>drawers in cabinetry, where there is a lot of repetition. But for
>recreational building of furniture, boxes etc., I don't get it. And
>these jigs are pretty darned expensive.
I don't quite understand the question. You seem to be asking why I
would buy a jig rather than use a saw I probably already have to cut
the dovetails by hand.
If I cut the dovetails by hand how do I justify buying the jig to
SWMBO?
Come to think of it, the last time I did hand cut dove tails, I
cheated. I made two sleds for my table saw. They were angled at 7
degrees, one for the right side, and one for the left side of the pins.
Now all I need is a saw blade with the teeth angles at 7 degrees to cut
the tails. I actually saw one that someone had made in Fine
Woodworking.
robo hippy
Larry Jaques wrote:
> On 26 May 2005 11:25:27 -0700, the inscrutable "Phillip Hallam-Baker"
> <[email protected]> spake:
>
> >>I understand the appeal of a jig for production work, where time is
> >>money. Even as a hobbyist, I would be tempted for something like
> >>drawers in cabinetry, where there is a lot of repetition. But for
> >>recreational building of furniture, boxes etc., I don't get it. And
> >>these jigs are pretty darned expensive.
> >
> >I don't quite understand the question. You seem to be asking why I
> >would buy a jig rather than use a saw I probably already have to cut
> >the dovetails by hand.
> >
> >If I cut the dovetails by hand how do I justify buying the jig to
> >SWMBO?
>
> You don't buy the jig. You buy the nice new Japanese style saw and
> some brand new chisels instead. ;)
>
>
> --
> REMEMBER: First you pillage, then you burn.
> ---
> http://diversify.com Full Service Website Development
Alex, I hear ya. I am a firm believer that hand cut dovetails are the mark
of a true craftsman. However, I do have a jig that is used solely for
production work. After learning to cut them by hand, I consider it a sin
(almost as bad as staining cherry) to use the jig for a couple of drawers.
Hand cutting takes a little patience and small learning curve, but for a
couple of drawers I now can hand cut DT's maybe faster than the time it
takes me to set up a router and jig. Furthermore, if the hand cut dovetail
has some small imperfections (ones you have to look closely to see) I think
it gives the piece some "personality" as opposed to a dovetail that looks
like a drone working a machine made it. I take much more pride in my work
because my dovetails are hand cut. In fact, when I look at a piece of fine
furniture anymore, seeing machine cut dovetails kinda ruins things for me.
Just my $.02 --dave
"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 25 May 2005 11:17:31 -0400, alexy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Why do so many hobbyists use dovetail jigs?
>
> They buy them, doesn't mean they use them! I don't think there are
> actually that many cut in total, by any means.
>
>
> IMHO:
>
> People buy too many tools.
>
> People buy the wrong tools, the tools they're _sold_, not the tools they
> actually need.
>
> Dovetails are "scary". You can't cut them without an expensive jig
> (sic). You can't cut them without a router, which of course implies a
> jig.
>
> Hand cut dovetails "take too long". They're also "too hard".
>
On 26 May 2005 11:25:27 -0700, the inscrutable "Phillip Hallam-Baker"
<[email protected]> spake:
>>I understand the appeal of a jig for production work, where time is
>>money. Even as a hobbyist, I would be tempted for something like
>>drawers in cabinetry, where there is a lot of repetition. But for
>>recreational building of furniture, boxes etc., I don't get it. And
>>these jigs are pretty darned expensive.
>
>I don't quite understand the question. You seem to be asking why I
>would buy a jig rather than use a saw I probably already have to cut
>the dovetails by hand.
>
>If I cut the dovetails by hand how do I justify buying the jig to
>SWMBO?
You don't buy the jig. You buy the nice new Japanese style saw and
some brand new chisels instead. ;)
--
REMEMBER: First you pillage, then you burn.
---
http://diversify.com Full Service Website Development
Alexy:
since your e-mail address doesn't look quite
kosher I guess I'll have to ask you here.
I'l like to include your "1/2" stock taped to
the end of a part to be dovetailed (pins
specifically) on a bandsaw" trick with
my dovetail web page stuff. Before I do
that I'd like your permission to do so
AND send you an illustration (gif file)
that I think illustrates the idea to confirm
that what I think you described and what
I got are the same thing.
Sam Maloof uses this idea when he's
horizontally boring dowel holes in
his chair seat parts. As is often the
case, there's usually a simple method
and a complicated method of solving
most problems. In general, simpler
is better.
Bandsaw tables are built to allow
tilting - but only in one directection.
Why don't the bandsaw manufactures
provide both plus and minus tilting
capability?
Anyway - thanks for the simple
solution.
charlie b
my e-mail address is the real one.
snip
>
> I'm doing a blanket chest right now and I wanted to dovetail the
> corners, and my skill level doing them really isn't up to it but I
> went for it. Nowhere near perfect, but they're mine. I wonder 10
> years down the road when I look at it whether I'll still be proud of
> em or go "Gah, how'd I ever let *that* out of the shop"
>
> -Leuf
For some
it's the destination
For some
it's the journey
And some
never leave home
Stuff I make
are postcards,
reminders of
stops along
the way
The quiet sound
of a pull saw
cutting
at 2 AM
The pleasing
swoosh
while planing,
The smell
released
by a sharp
edge.
The satisfying
click
of a joint
closing
just so.
The
Ahhhhh!
as a finish
pops
the grain
The lingering
image
of the piece
just after
I turn off
the light.
The surprise
of
I made that?!
Fun stuff
this woodworking
charlie b
"alexy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I know I'm going to get accused of trolling, but I am going to ask
> anyway, in hopes that someone will give a serious answer.
>
> Why do so many hobbyists use dovetail jigs?
Very serious answer. Some of us just don't have the skills to cut them by
hand.
I'm glad you can, but please don't look down on us that cannot. I can't do
brain surgery very well either. I'm very good at what I do in my business
though, perhaps better than you would be.
> But I find cutting dovetails
> by hand to be rewarding. And while my results are well shy of the
> "gee-whiz" handcut DT's you see at a woodworking show, I can pull open
> a file drawer in my desk and from two feet away not see the flaws in
> the DTs. Looking at them, I remember fondly the satisfaction of doing
> my first 1/2-blind dovetails. I don't think I would get that from
> looking at precisely milled and "sterile" dovetails.
I'm happy for you. Honest, I really am. l You posess a skil that I do not
have.
>
> But for
> recreational building of furniture, boxes etc., I don't get it. And
> these jigs are pretty darned expensive.
You probably never will. You realy should have an open mind about these
things. .
>
> And if I look at $400
> for a D4 jig + $50+ for bushings and bits (assuming that a router
> would not be an incremental cost), I could buy a medium quality
> japanese dt saw, a set of medium quality chisels (if I didn't already
> have them), layout and marking tools, and have $300+ left over for
> practice lumber, which would be lots of fun. And the skills I develop
> are not subject to limitations on thickness of wood, width or length
> of workpiece, etc.
I hope you enjoy yourself. While you are practicing dovetails, I'll be
playing at one of my other hobbies that I enjoy too. I'm good at many
things, dovetails is just not one of them.
"Dave Jackson" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Alex, I hear ya. I am a firm believer that hand cut dovetails are the mark
>of a true craftsman. However, I do have a jig that is used solely for
>production work. After learning to cut them by hand, I consider it a sin
>(almost as bad as staining cherry) to use the jig for a couple of drawers.
>Hand cutting takes a little patience and small learning curve, but for a
>couple of drawers I now can hand cut DT's maybe faster than the time it
>takes me to set up a router and jig. Furthermore, if the hand cut dovetail
>has some small imperfections (ones you have to look closely to see) I think
>it gives the piece some "personality" as opposed to a dovetail that looks
>like a drone working a machine made it. I take much more pride in my work
>because my dovetails are hand cut. In fact, when I look at a piece of fine
>furniture anymore, seeing machine cut dovetails kinda ruins things for me.
>Just my $.02 --dave
>
>"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 25 May 2005 11:17:31 -0400, alexy <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Why do so many hobbyists use dovetail jigs?
>>
>> They buy them, doesn't mean they use them! I don't think there are
>> actually that many cut in total, by any means.
>>
>>
>> IMHO:
>>
>> People buy too many tools.
>>
>> People buy the wrong tools, the tools they're _sold_, not the tools they
>> actually need.
>>
>> Dovetails are "scary". You can't cut them without an expensive jig
>> (sic). You can't cut them without a router, which of course implies a
>> jig.
>>
>> Hand cut dovetails "take too long". They're also "too hard".
>>
>
I agree with you both.
BUT
My intent here was not to start a religious war. It was to better
understand why some folks spend so much money on something I think I
would find of marginal value. And this discussion has pointed out an
interest in productivity that I had mistakenly assumed was important
only to those working for remuneration rather than fun.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Does "too each his own" answer the question?
Trivially. It doesn't tell me what I am missing.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
On Wed, 25 May 2005 23:19:25 GMT, "Dave Jackson" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Furthermore, if the hand cut dovetail
>has some small imperfections (ones you have to look closely to see) I think
>it gives the piece some "personality" as opposed to a dovetail that looks
>like a drone working a machine made it. I take much more pride in my work
>because my dovetails are hand cut. In fact, when I look at a piece of fine
>furniture anymore, seeing machine cut dovetails kinda ruins things for me.
>Just my $.02 --dave
This got me to thinking.. hypothetically, what if there were a machine
that would do dovetails such that there were slight variations in the
tail angle in addition to the variable spacing already possible, maybe
such that you could even set how much variation you wanted. Would
this give them a "soul", as it was put earlier? I know it wouldn't be
the same feeling having been the one making it, but how would anyone
looking at it when it was done know the difference?
I'm doing a blanket chest right now and I wanted to dovetail the
corners, and my skill level doing them really isn't up to it but I
went for it. Nowhere near perfect, but they're mine. I wonder 10
years down the road when I look at it whether I'll still be proud of
em or go "Gah, how'd I ever let *that* out of the shop"
-Leuf
"alexy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I know I'm going to get accused of trolling, but I am going to ask
> anyway, in hopes that someone will give a serious answer.
>
> Why do so many hobbyists use dovetail jigs? My experience is very
> limited -- early in my participation in the woodworking hobby, and
> with crappy equipment (Craftsman 1/4" router and Craftsman dovetail
>
nfrequently.
Because it is easier to cut a Blind DT with a router and jig than to cut
them by hand.
I can only answer for myself.
I just don't like fussing with time consuming little things that have to be
done precisely; and so for the ocassional dovetail, I use a fixture. For me
the fun is converting beautiful wood into even more beautiful furniture.
Any aid I can get in making it better and quicker is great.
You enjoy the process, the craftsmanship; and that is certainly a valid POV.
Maybe someday, after I have made enough furniture, I will chose to slow down
and become more involved with the process; maybe not.
At the Niagara Glen (in Niagara Falls...) there is a climbing route called
"Don't you know there are stairs over there?", about 50' from a lovely set
of fully enclosed stairs going up the 60' or so to the top of the cliff.
Most people use the stairs because it is safe and fast; I like the climb.
Neither approach is superior; they accomodate different needs.
"alexy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Patriarch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >alexy <[email protected]> wrote in
news:8j29915dmv7uqq4du37s5ivlnr7f7lalig@
> >4ax.com:
> >
> >
> >> Are there other appeals to the process of machining dovetails?
> >>
> >
> >A sense of control, predictability, repeatability, security.
> >
> >On another thread, a poster indicated that one of the primary indicators,
> >in his mind, of a 'professional' was the creation of a jig or pattern,
such
> >that one could prepare for, predict, and increase the likelihood of
success
> >with the final material.
>
> >
> >Whether you agree with that sentiment or not, it explains some folks'
> >viewpoint.
>
> That sounds like a pretty good indicator, and is why I think these
> jigs make a lot of sense for a professional. But I have never aspired
> to be a professional woodworker, nor to work like one.
>
> From this discussion, what I see that what I was missing is that many
> woodworkers get a large measure of their pleasure from what they
> produce, while for me it is more the process. I'm about as
> unproductive a woodworker as they come (which is why SWMBO usually
> moans when I say "I will make that", wondering when she will finally
> get it).
>
I have yet to use a jig ,but then I make many repros and as dovetails varied
in sophisticationand angles doing them by hand allows more flexability . Of
course the more you do by hand then better you get at it , for small amounts
in the long run it is probably quicker to do them by hand that spend the
time it takes to set up a jig and to be honest for someone who loves
woodworking there is more satisfaction .
AS far as how long it takes, you maght as well come up with your best
estimate and at least double it .
I was following a car locally ,and as I got closer I noticed his bumper
sticker which said .".The only perso that ever got everything done by Friday
was Robinson Crusoe "
alexy <[email protected]> wrote in news:8j29915dmv7uqq4du37s5ivlnr7f7lalig@
4ax.com:
> Are there other appeals to the process of machining dovetails?
>
A sense of control, predictability, repeatability, security.
On another thread, a poster indicated that one of the primary indicators,
in his mind, of a 'professional' was the creation of a jig or pattern, such
that one could prepare for, predict, and increase the likelihood of success
with the final material.
Whether you agree with that sentiment or not, it explains some folks'
viewpoint.
I have both an Akeda jig, and LN saws & chisels, BTW. The results are
important, too, not only the path taken.
Patriarch
"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in news:hbWdncO5PpoUEAjfRVn-
[email protected]:
> "Patriarch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> She said something of great insight: "I would not have limited your hope
>> for anything. We could and have afforded the money."
>
> She sure sounds like a keeper to me. Good for her.
>
32 years last month. We think it's going to last. ;-)
Patriarch
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> "Patriarch" wrote in message
>
>> She said something of great insight: "I would not have limited your
>> hope for anything. We could and have afforded the money."
>
> Great driveby ... you suck!
>
On the equipment I've acquired over the last 5 years, I've had very few
clunkers.
And my wife has been very supportive. Every function of the Shopsmith,
except for the disk sander, has been replaced with reasonable to
professional quality equipment, as my skills and projects required.
Seldom has she had a complaint. And we've been fortunate enough to have
the funds.
And for the driveby: I'd been grousing about the limitations of the
Shopsmith as a lathe, last winter. She asked what a 'good one' would
cost, and I threw a OneWay number in the air in frustration, saying that
we couldn't afford one of those. But a Jet 1442 became available at an
excellent price, and quietly found a place in a corner of the shop. The
quality of what I turn improved by an order of magnitude. She came in
the shop Saturday, and recognized the new machine. "What did you have
to pay for that?" She was quite relieved that I'd spent only $800
without discussing things with her, rather than $4000 plus.
There are more than a few bowls-to-be, waiting in the wood pile, but
today's project is a bathroom vanity & drawers. And tonight, I need to
design a closet system.
BTW, Swing, I really enjoyed your taking the time to post the progress
pics on your latest kitchen. Thanks!
Patriarch
Andy's post touched a nerve, but not in a bad way. LOML & I were
discussing tool use (and storage needs) this evening, and she, delicately I
thought, brought up a rather expensive tool purchase I (we) made several
years ago. It's a tool that I bought, with stars in my eyes, dreaming of
all the wonderful things I would build.
She said she wondered at the time, if it was a good choice, but was
supportive, because of my enthusiasm, and because of the creative
possibilities I saw. And I asked why she hadn't objected, because I, since
then, have regretted spending that amount of money on such a tool.
She said something of great insight: "I would not have limited your hope
for anything. We could and have afforded the money." And I have become a
much better, and better equipped, artisan. By no means perfect.
Marketers know quite well that we reach for the stars, in small steps.
She said something else, too. She said to give the Shopsmith to one of our
sons, but not to sell it, or give it away elsewhere.
It is, for now, a reminder of lessons I'm learning.
There is another reminder in my office: A Titleist 990 1-iron. A reminder
that you cannot buy a game, and that Lee Trevino was right.
Patriarch
Leuf <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
<snip>
> This got me to thinking.. hypothetically, what if there were a machine
> that would do dovetails such that there were slight variations in the
> tail angle in addition to the variable spacing already possible, maybe
> such that you could even set how much variation you wanted. Would
> this give them a "soul", as it was put earlier? I know it wouldn't be
> the same feeling having been the one making it, but how would anyone
> looking at it when it was done know the difference?
>
You mean like a bandsaw? Well-tuned, right blade, works fine, according to
folks with impeccable pro/artist credentials... Enough variation to suit
you, I would think.
The notion of 'soul' really relates to the connection between
artist/craftsperson and the work. How that connection occurs, and what
form it takes, is personal. A screaming router does tend to interfere with
the karma. ;-)
It doesn't mean I won't use the right tool for the job at hand. Or take it
as an excuse to buy something I think I want.
"Phillip Hallam-Baker" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I don't quite understand the question. You seem to be asking why I
>would buy a jig rather than use a saw I probably already have to cut
>the dovetails by hand.
>
>If I cut the dovetails by hand how do I justify buying the jig to
>SWMBO?
LOL!
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
On Wed, 25 May 2005 11:17:31 -0400, alexy <[email protected]> wrote:
>Why do so many hobbyists use dovetail jigs?
They buy them, doesn't mean they use them! I don't think there are
actually that many cut in total, by any means.
IMHO:
People buy too many tools.
People buy the wrong tools, the tools they're _sold_, not the tools they
actually need.
Dovetails are "scary". You can't cut them without an expensive jig
(sic). You can't cut them without a router, which of course implies a
jig.
Hand cut dovetails "take too long". They're also "too hard".
I can't answer the question, but I can offer empathy.
I'm about where you are. I can to "pretty good" handcut DT's, and I prefer
to do them that way. Just about anything that I make is by definition "one
of a kind" and deserves that.
However, when I made built my kitchen cabinets, 15 drawers were not an
option. Besides, sadly, kitchens are disposable. They will be remodeled in
20 years. I hope that my furniture lasts longer that a single human
lifespan.
steve
"alexy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I know I'm going to get accused of trolling, but I am going to ask
> anyway, in hopes that someone will give a serious answer.
>
> Why do so many hobbyists use dovetail jigs? My experience is very
> limited -- early in my participation in the woodworking hobby, and
> with crappy equipment (Craftsman 1/4" router and Craftsman dovetail
> jig) so maybe that is tainting my view. But I find cutting dovetails
> by hand to be rewarding. And while my results are well shy of the
> "gee-whiz" handcut DT's you see at a woodworking show, I can pull open
> a file drawer in my desk and from two feet away not see the flaws in
> the DTs. Looking at them, I remember fondly the satisfaction of doing
> my first 1/2-blind dovetails. I don't think I would get that from
> looking at precisely milled and "sterile" dovetails.
>
> I understand the appeal of a jig for production work, where time is
> money. Even as a hobbyist, I would be tempted for something like
> drawers in cabinetry, where there is a lot of repetition. But for
> recreational building of furniture, boxes etc., I don't get it. And
> these jigs are pretty darned expensive.
>
> Here's the rationales I see:
> Production work where time is money
> High-volume repetitive work, e.g, 24 identical drawers
> Decorative (I'm tempted to say "gimmicky", but that is a matter of
> taste) dovetails with contrasting wood layers, unusual shapes, etc.
> [in another thread, Larry Bud said:] "I can understand why someone
> would want to cut them by hand, but I don't have the patience or time
> to learn to cut them equivalent to the quality of the D4."
>
> Are there other appeals to the process of machining dovetails?
>
> BTW, I am not a dedicated Neander, but I don't share Larry's goals of
> having my hand-cut dovetails look machine-cut. And if I look at $400
> for a D4 jig + $50+ for bushings and bits (assuming that a router
> would not be an incremental cost), I could buy a medium quality
> japanese dt saw, a set of medium quality chisels (if I didn't already
> have them), layout and marking tools, and have $300+ left over for
> practice lumber, which would be lots of fun. And the skills I develop
> are not subject to limitations on thickness of wood, width or length
> of workpiece, etc.
> --
> Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked
infrequently.
"Patriarch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> She said something of great insight: "I would not have limited your hope
> for anything. We could and have afforded the money."
She sure sounds like a keeper to me. Good for her.
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote:
>"alexy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> Why do so many hobbyists use dovetail jigs?
>
>Very serious answer. Some of us just don't have the skills to cut them by
>hand.
Nor did I when I first started doing them. And I am not happy with the
ones I cut for a box I made last week.
>I'm glad you can, but please don't look down on us that cannot.
Two things:
1) I can't do them to the expert level.
2) I have no idea where you got the impression that I was looking down
my nose at those who don't do them by hand. I'm sorry if I said
something to give that impression.
> I can't do
>brain surgery very well either. I'm very good at what I do in my business
>though, perhaps better than you would be.
I would hope so, unless we are in the same business.
>> But I find cutting dovetails
>> by hand to be rewarding. And while my results are well shy of the
>> "gee-whiz" handcut DT's you see at a woodworking show, I can pull open
>> a file drawer in my desk and from two feet away not see the flaws in
>> the DTs. Looking at them, I remember fondly the satisfaction of doing
>> my first 1/2-blind dovetails. I don't think I would get that from
>> looking at precisely milled and "sterile" dovetails.
>
>I'm happy for you. Honest, I really am. l You posess a skil that I do not
>have.
Or to put a different spin on it, I have chosen to work at a skill
that you have chosen not to work at. No value judgement there at all,
just "different strokes" that I was trying to understand.
>> But for
>> recreational building of furniture, boxes etc., I don't get it. And
>> these jigs are pretty darned expensive.
>
>You probably never will. You realy should have an open mind about these
>things.
Huh?! Do you think I am asking for explanation of something I don't
understand because I have a closed mind? Think that one through!
>> And if I look at $400
>> for a D4 jig + $50+ for bushings and bits (assuming that a router
>> would not be an incremental cost), I could buy a medium quality
>> japanese dt saw, a set of medium quality chisels (if I didn't already
>> have them), layout and marking tools, and have $300+ left over for
>> practice lumber, which would be lots of fun. And the skills I develop
>> are not subject to limitations on thickness of wood, width or length
>> of workpiece, etc.
>
>I hope you enjoy yourself. While you are practicing dovetails, I'll be
>playing at one of my other hobbies that I enjoy too. I'm good at many
>things, dovetails is just not one of them.
I bet you would be if you chose to be. But nothing wrong with not
making that choice, and this discussion is helping me to understand
those who choose not to spend time developing that skill.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
On Thu, 26 May 2005 02:48:33 -0500, Patriarch
<[email protected]> wrote:
>she, delicately I
>thought, brought up a rather expensive tool purchase I (we) made several
>years ago.
Shopsmith ? Take up making post and rail chairs. Nothing like a
Shopsmith for doing the awkward boring, and it's enough of a lathe to
turn them too.
My biggest white elephant is the Incra fence on my router table. Can't
cut a dovetail on a wide board, too slow at dovetailing compared to a
finger jig for production work, and too floppy to replace my home-made
MDF box as a general fence.
"alexy" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
| Patriarch <[email protected]> wrote:
|=20
| >alexy <[email protected]> wrote in =
news:8j29915dmv7uqq4du37s5ivlnr7f7lalig@
| >4ax.com:
| >
<SNIP>
| From this discussion, what I see that what I was missing is that many
| woodworkers get a large measure of their pleasure from what they
| produce, while for me it is more the process. I'm about as
| unproductive a woodworker as they come (which is why SWMBO usually
| moans when I say "I will make that", wondering when she will finally
| get it).
| =20
I fully empathize with you. I have one who has yet to grasp the meaning =
of "a rainy day project".
To date, I have most of the tools I feel are needful and a bunch of the =
"nice to have". My dovetails are done with either a saw or the router =
depending upon how ambitious I am on any given day. =20
I have a lovely pair of "double style" doors that took me 6 months to =
create (rainy days were hard to come by) and I have a room that has been =
waiting for a year to receive raised panel wainscots.
I have a dovetail jig that I used for a couple years. When I learned
the skill of cutting dovetails by hand I no longer use the jig. I can
even cut dovetails on a skewed corner where most jigs can't even
touch. Two weeks of practice is all it takes. It takes awhile to
properly setup a dovetail jig and by that time I can be a long way
handcutting them, although a jig will be much faster if there are many
to cut.
"Mike in Idaho" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>alexy wrote:
>>
>> Trivially. It doesn't tell me what I am missing.
>
>How about I got a Leigh jig for $100 out of the paper
THAT certainly changes the equation!
> and haven't had
>the time or money to build a nice bench yet to do my planing, sawing,
>choping (chisels) with. So, for now I find the quick setup and ease of
>use on the jig a piece of cake. And those dovetails look sweet (using
>a Leigh with variable spaced dovetails does look 10x better than the
>standard 1/4" crapsman jig and various wannabes out there).
I wasn't aware of that. That explains some of the appeal.
>
>I've used it to dovetail boards as long as 5 feet (the jig went on
>cinder blocks on top of a table, that was fun :) I wouldn't have even
>wanted to try that by hand.
>
>But having said that I still hope to build a nice work bench someday (I
>already have the vise hardware) and will be more than happy to do
>handcut dovetails. Will I sell my jig? Probably not, it's too handy
>to get rid of and at $100 I'm not likely to see another deal like that
>again anytime soon.
>
>Mike
Thanks, Mike. I'm not convinced that I would use it instead of
hand-cutting, but if I found a deal like you did, this sounds like it
might be worth buying to keep on the shelf just in case.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
Patriarch <[email protected]> wrote:
>alexy <[email protected]> wrote in news:8j29915dmv7uqq4du37s5ivlnr7f7lalig@
>4ax.com:
>
>
>> Are there other appeals to the process of machining dovetails?
>>
>
>A sense of control, predictability, repeatability, security.
>
>On another thread, a poster indicated that one of the primary indicators,
>in his mind, of a 'professional' was the creation of a jig or pattern, such
>that one could prepare for, predict, and increase the likelihood of success
>with the final material.
>
>Whether you agree with that sentiment or not, it explains some folks'
>viewpoint.
That sounds like a pretty good indicator, and is why I think these
jigs make a lot of sense for a professional. But I have never aspired
to be a professional woodworker, nor to work like one.
From this discussion, what I see that what I was missing is that many
woodworkers get a large measure of their pleasure from what they
produce, while for me it is more the process. I'm about as
unproductive a woodworker as they come (which is why SWMBO usually
moans when I say "I will make that", wondering when she will finally
get it).
>I have both an Akeda jig, and LN saws & chisels, BTW. The results are
>important, too, not only the path taken.
>
>Patriarch
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
charlie b <[email protected]> wrote:
>Alexy:
>
>since your e-mail address doesn't look quite
>kosher I guess I'll have to ask you here.
Just curious--did you try it, per instructions in sig line? That
should work, but I haven't tested it. If you tried, it doesn't work.
:-(
>
>I'l like to include your "1/2" stock taped to
>the end of a part to be dovetailed (pins
>specifically) on a bandsaw" trick with
>my dovetail web page stuff. Before I do
>that I'd like your permission to do so
>AND send you an illustration (gif file)
>that I think illustrates the idea to confirm
>that what I think you described and what
>I got are the same thing.
Well, my attorney said that if I would pay $3,000 up front, he would
do a patent search on "1/2-inch stick and double sided tape" to see if
I could make my fortune off of this. But what the heck, I guess I will
release it to the public domain. <g>
Send what you've got, and I'll email you some photos.
>
>Bandsaw tables are built to allow
>tilting - but only in one directection.
>Why don't the bandsaw manufactures
>provide both plus and minus tilting
>capability?
Look at the geometry. Center of pivot is on the outside edge of the
wheel. There is room for the left side of the table to tilt up, since
their needs to be space between the upper wheel and the table. But you
want the table close to the bottom wheel, bottom guides, etc., so no
room for left side to tilt down.
>
>Anyway - thanks for the simple
>solution.
That's part of the fun of woodworking for me.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
"toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I can only answer for myself.
>
>I just don't like fussing with time consuming little things that have to be
>done precisely; and so for the ocassional dovetail, I use a fixture. For me
>the fun is converting beautiful wood into even more beautiful furniture.
>Any aid I can get in making it better and quicker is great.
>
>You enjoy the process, the craftsmanship; and that is certainly a valid POV.
>Maybe someday, after I have made enough furniture, I will chose to slow down
>and become more involved with the process; maybe not.
>
>At the Niagara Glen (in Niagara Falls...) there is a climbing route called
>"Don't you know there are stairs over there?", about 50' from a lovely set
>of fully enclosed stairs going up the 60' or so to the top of the cliff.
>
>Most people use the stairs because it is safe and fast; I like the climb.
>Neither approach is superior; they accomodate different needs.
>
Thanks. That's a good perspective and analogy.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.