I am building a garden gate and my design prevents me from using a
diagonal brace. I am planning on using mortise and tenon joinery (with
pins) for the frame. (The design is somethig like this:
http://www.prowellwoodworks.com/gate/g_98.htm.) The gate will be quite
heavy (46" x72") and the frame will be 2x6 cedar.
My question is: Are glued and pinned mortise and tenon joints enough to
prevent sag? Has anyone built a heavy gate using mortise and tenon
joinery who can tell me how they hold up?
Secondly, what if there was a diagonal brace only on the bottom half of
the gate? (The top portion will be lattice.) Would that serve the
same purpose, or does a diagonal brace have to go all the way across
the gate? I really don't want any diagonal brace at all, but I might
be willing to compromise design for structural integrity.
Thanks in advance for any input.
Bert
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I am building a garden gate and my design prevents me from using a
> diagonal brace. I am planning on using mortise and tenon joinery (with
> pins) for the frame. (The design is somethig like this:
> http://www.prowellwoodworks.com/gate/g_98.htm.) The gate will be quite
> heavy (46" x72") and the frame will be 2x6 cedar.
>
> My question is: Are glued and pinned mortise and tenon joints enough to
> prevent sag? Has anyone built a heavy gate using mortise and tenon
> joinery who can tell me how they hold up?
>
> Secondly, what if there was a diagonal brace only on the bottom half of
> the gate? (The top portion will be lattice.) Would that serve the
> same purpose, or does a diagonal brace have to go all the way across
> the gate? I really don't want any diagonal brace at all, but I might
> be willing to compromise design for structural integrity.
>
> Thanks in advance for any input.
>
> Bert
>
I would build it one of two ways. My preferred method would be to insert a
3/8" all-thread in the top and bottom sections via a hole drilled through
the styles and rail. I would insert plugs to hide the nuts and washers.
Second method would make the rails as wide as design permits and use a large
mortise and tenon joints glued with epoxyed.
Dave
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Scott wrote:
> Putting a diagonal from the top hinge to the outer swinging corner is only
> as strong as the screws or nails that are holding it together. Putting the
> diagonal from the upper swinging corner to the bottom hinge takes any
> pressure causing the gate to want to droop and puts that pressure on the
> bottom of the post that the gate is attached to and thus makes it virtually
> undroopable (good luck finding that word on Google).
Yes, that's what I've been thinking as well. Screws and nails will
want to bend unless they are in tension, in which case you need to
worry about them pulling out. And with pegged m&t you'd need to worry
about the relish or glue failing. My gut tells me that a diagonal in
compression would be safer. I have been known to be wrong.
JP
> "Oleg Lego" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > The [email protected] entity posted thusly:
> >
> >>I am building a garden gate and my design prevents me from using a
> >>diagonal brace.
> >
> > Is it a matter of appearance that is causing you to not want a
> > diagonal? Personally, I rather like a diagonal for both rigidity and
> > appearance, but if you don't, how about using thinner stock in the
> > center decorative part, and run a diagonal internally? In other words,
> > the diagonal is sandwiched between the vertical pieces in the bottom
> > half of the gate.
> >
> > I always put the diagonal from the top hinge to the swinging outer
> > corner.
> >
> >
Leuf wrote:
> On 1 Jul 2006 22:05:41 -0700, "Jay Pique" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Leuf wrote:
> >> You're right. We must never rely on screws, nails, glue, and
> >> especially condiments.
> >
> >Don't put words in my mouth. I just said that you need not rely on
> >them in this instance. And your ignorance is showing.
>
> You're missing the point. The structure is only as strong as the
> weakest link. You accomplish nothing by making this one element
> stronger. And it's rude to stare at someone's ignorance.
All right, I give! But I'd still do it my way, if I weren't to use a
piece of cable.
JP
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Yes, I misspelled it. Planform.
>
> "Elrond Hubbard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> 'Planeform' is not a word found in any online dictionary that I can
>> find. Googling 'planeform' gets fewer that 400 hits, none of which
>> seems apposite. Care to expatiate?
>>
>> Scott
If you had said plan view, we all would have known what you were talking
about. :-)
unfortunetly not enough to make the hours, that I'm sure you spent looking
for it, worth while
"Owen Lawrence" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>> bottom of the post that the gate is attached to and thus makes it
>> virtually
>> undroopable (good luck finding that word on Google).
>
> http://4x4xplor.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=974&sid=224ed5138ad241d9b890a853d98ac95b
>
> What do I win?
>
> - Owen -
>
Phisherman <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> The diagonal
> should be placed from the bottom hinge area to the upper corner that
> swings out.
I work with a guy who insists that the diagonal run from the top hinge to
the bottom outer corner.
Is there any consensus on why one or the other is preferable? It seems to
me that a triangle is a triangle is a triangle, and as long as one side of
the triangle connects the two hinges, the choice of whether the other end
is up or down is arbitrary.
What say you?
Scott Cramer
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Draw up both planeforms. If you can visualize forces, it will become
> obvious. Phisherman is right.
> "Elrond Hubbard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Phisherman <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>> > The diagonal
>> > should be placed from the bottom hinge area to the upper corner
>> > that swings out.
>>
>> I work with a guy who insists that the diagonal run from the top
>> hinge to the bottom outer corner.
>>
>> Is there any consensus on why one or the other is preferable? It
>> seems to me that a triangle is a triangle is a triangle, and as long
>> as one side of the triangle connects the two hinges, the choice of
>> whether the other end is up or down is arbitrary.
>>
>> What say you?
>>
>> Scott Cramer
'Planeform' is not a word found in any online dictionary that I can
find. Googling 'planeform' gets fewer that 400 hits, none of which
seems apposite. Care to expatiate?
Scott
"Scott" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Putting a diagonal from the top hinge to the outer swinging corner is only
> as strong as the screws or nails that are holding it together.
Which is typically strong enough.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Lowell Holmes" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:C7wpg.4433$fv3.1933@trnddc02...
>>
>> Is planform a term used in the aero-space industry? It's not a common
>> term
>> used in the petro-chemical industry. When I Googled it, I got airplane
>> wings. :-)
>> No matter how long I've been in the workforce, there's always something
> new
>> to learn.
>>
>>
>
> I never thought about it being industry specific but, I have been building
> heavy jets for over 15 years.
And I've been involved with the oil patch and petrochemical industries since
the 1950's. I never heard the term before, but like I said, I run across
something new all the time.
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Lowell Holmes" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:1Ntpg.2491$JZ1.782@trnddc01...
>>
>>
>> If you had said plan view, we all would have known what you were talking
>> about. :-)
>>
>>
>
> Probably, but that is not what I meant.
Is planform a term used in the aero-space industry? It's not a common term
used in the petro-chemical industry. When I Googled it, I got airplane
wings. :-)
No matter how long I've been in the workforce, there's always something new
to learn.
I used a cable from the top end by the henges to the lower end on the other
side it worked well and cost me about $2 at Lowes.
Al
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I am building a garden gate and my design prevents me from using a
> diagonal brace. I am planning on using mortise and tenon joinery (with
> pins) for the frame. (The design is somethig like this:
> http://www.prowellwoodworks.com/gate/g_98.htm.) The gate will be quite
> heavy (46" x72") and the frame will be 2x6 cedar.
>
> My question is: Are glued and pinned mortise and tenon joints enough to
> prevent sag? Has anyone built a heavy gate using mortise and tenon
> joinery who can tell me how they hold up?
>
> Secondly, what if there was a diagonal brace only on the bottom half of
> the gate? (The top portion will be lattice.) Would that serve the
> same purpose, or does a diagonal brace have to go all the way across
> the gate? I really don't want any diagonal brace at all, but I might
> be willing to compromise design for structural integrity.
>
> Thanks in advance for any input.
>
> Bert
>
"Australopithecus scobis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Elrond Hubbard <[email protected]> wrote:
>>snip
> Gravity will pull down the outer stile. The hinge stile gets pulled on
> too, but the hinges hold it up. You wind up with a parallelogram whose
> long diagonal is top hinge to bottom outside. Ergo, put the tension
> diagonal on that line to hold up that bottom outside corner.
>
> |H|\
> | | \
> | | \
> |H\ |
> \ |
> \ |
> \|
>
> You could put a compression brace from bottom hinge to top outside, but
> sufficient tension-resistance is cheaper in terms of weight than is
> compression-resistance. Compression-resistive members have to be strong
> enough to resist bowing. Yeah, yeah, one could use a magnesium I-beam or
> something. Go with the wire cable and two-nut tensioner thingamabob.
I agree with about everything said in this string, but we are not talking
about bank vault doors. The design Bert referred to has two stiles and
four rails, with the two bottom panels having captive pickets in them. The
two picket panels will resist tension and compression providing diagonal
bracing. If the pickets were long, they wouldn't be adequate. (Colonial
style raised panel wooden doors didn't have diagonals in them, the panels
provided the stiffening needed. Cross buck doors did have diagonals.)
Western red cedar is not a heavy wood. My experience is that with good
solid m&t joints, the gate will be stiff. I've built two similar gates that
are four years old at my daughter's house, and they just don't sag. I would
make the top and bottom rail go the full width of the gate to prevent the
stiles from trying to bend at the connection with the rails. The two
intermediate rails would join to the interior sides of the stiles. I did use
three strap hinges on each gate, which helps in minimizing sag. The hinges
are located at the rails and are through bolted with carriage bolts.
I've had good luck with buying rough cedar 2X6's and planing them to 1 1/2"
thickness, providing a smooth surface. Wear a dust mask when making sawdust.
I would build the bottom section as it's own gate and but the diagonal
support in, then build your lattice section on the top. In the end it will
be one gate, but really the bottom gate will be doing all the work.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I am building a garden gate and my design prevents me from using a
> diagonal brace. I am planning on using mortise and tenon joinery (with
> pins) for the frame. (The design is somethig like this:
> http://www.prowellwoodworks.com/gate/g_98.htm.) The gate will be quite
> heavy (46" x72") and the frame will be 2x6 cedar.
>
> My question is: Are glued and pinned mortise and tenon joints enough to
> prevent sag? Has anyone built a heavy gate using mortise and tenon
> joinery who can tell me how they hold up?
>
> Secondly, what if there was a diagonal brace only on the bottom half of
> the gate? (The top portion will be lattice.) Would that serve the
> same purpose, or does a diagonal brace have to go all the way across
> the gate? I really don't want any diagonal brace at all, but I might
> be willing to compromise design for structural integrity.
>
> Thanks in advance for any input.
>
> Bert
>
My well be two words. Don't recall ever seeing it written. Means layout.
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Yes, I misspelled it. Planform.
>
> "Elrond Hubbard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > 'Planeform' is not a word found in any online dictionary that I can
> > find. Googling 'planeform' gets fewer that 400 hits, none of which
> > seems apposite. Care to expatiate?
> >
> > Scott
>
>
"Lowell Holmes" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1Ntpg.2491$JZ1.782@trnddc01...
>
>
> If you had said plan view, we all would have known what you were talking
> about. :-)
>
>
Probably, but that is not what I meant.
Putting a diagonal from the top hinge to the outer swinging corner is only
as strong as the screws or nails that are holding it together. Putting the
diagonal from the upper swinging corner to the bottom hinge takes any
pressure causing the gate to want to droop and puts that pressure on the
bottom of the post that the gate is attached to and thus makes it virtually
undroopable (good luck finding that word on Google).
"Oleg Lego" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The [email protected] entity posted thusly:
>
>>I am building a garden gate and my design prevents me from using a
>>diagonal brace.
>
> Is it a matter of appearance that is causing you to not want a
> diagonal? Personally, I rather like a diagonal for both rigidity and
> appearance, but if you don't, how about using thinner stock in the
> center decorative part, and run a diagonal internally? In other words,
> the diagonal is sandwiched between the vertical pieces in the bottom
> half of the gate.
>
> I always put the diagonal from the top hinge to the swinging outer
> corner.
>
>
Draw up both planeforms. If you can visualize forces, it will become
obvious. Phisherman is right.
"Elrond Hubbard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Phisherman <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> > The diagonal
> > should be placed from the bottom hinge area to the upper corner that
> > swings out.
>
> I work with a guy who insists that the diagonal run from the top hinge to
> the bottom outer corner.
>
> Is there any consensus on why one or the other is preferable? It seems to
> me that a triangle is a triangle is a triangle, and as long as one side of
> the triangle connects the two hinges, the choice of whether the other end
> is up or down is arbitrary.
>
> What say you?
>
> Scott Cramer
Yes, I misspelled it. Planform.
"Elrond Hubbard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> 'Planeform' is not a word found in any online dictionary that I can
> find. Googling 'planeform' gets fewer that 400 hits, none of which
> seems apposite. Care to expatiate?
>
> Scott
"Lowell Holmes" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:C7wpg.4433$fv3.1933@trnddc02...
>
> Is planform a term used in the aero-space industry? It's not a common term
> used in the petro-chemical industry. When I Googled it, I got airplane
> wings. :-)
> No matter how long I've been in the workforce, there's always something
new
> to learn.
>
>
I never thought about it being industry specific but, I have been building
heavy jets for over 15 years.
On 30 Jun 2006 13:11:08 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>I am building a garden gate and my design prevents me from using a
>diagonal brace. I am planning on using mortise and tenon joinery (with
>pins) for the frame. (The design is somethig like this:
>http://www.prowellwoodworks.com/gate/g_98.htm.) The gate will be quite
>heavy (46" x72") and the frame will be 2x6 cedar.
>
>My question is: Are glued and pinned mortise and tenon joints enough to
>prevent sag? Has anyone built a heavy gate using mortise and tenon
>joinery who can tell me how they hold up?
>
>Secondly, what if there was a diagonal brace only on the bottom half of
>the gate? (The top portion will be lattice.) Would that serve the
>same purpose, or does a diagonal brace have to go all the way across
>the gate? I really don't want any diagonal brace at all, but I might
>be willing to compromise design for structural integrity.
>
>Thanks in advance for any input.
>
>Bert
To answer your question, Yes, M&T can be adequate providing they are
extended and cut well (accurate)
On 01 Jul 2006 00:29:05 GMT, Elrond Hubbard <[email protected]> wrote:
>Phisherman <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> The diagonal
>> should be placed from the bottom hinge area to the upper corner that
>> swings out.
>
>I work with a guy who insists that the diagonal run from the top hinge to
>the bottom outer corner.
>
>Is there any consensus on why one or the other is preferable? It seems to
>me that a triangle is a triangle is a triangle, and as long as one side of
>the triangle connects the two hinges, the choice of whether the other end
>is up or down is arbitrary.
If the diagonals are equal then the gate is square. Thus unless the
joints fail it shouldn't matter which diagonal you put it on.
It should still work if you are only bracing the bottom half. If the
bottom half is kept square it follows the top half can't sag. But I
would run the brace from the lower hinge to the outer middle so that
you aren't applying a force to the middle of the inner side of the
gate. Or put a third hinge there.
-Leuf
The [email protected] entity posted thusly:
>I am building a garden gate and my design prevents me from using a
>diagonal brace.
Is it a matter of appearance that is causing you to not want a
diagonal? Personally, I rather like a diagonal for both rigidity and
appearance, but if you don't, how about using thinner stock in the
center decorative part, and run a diagonal internally? In other words,
the diagonal is sandwiched between the vertical pieces in the bottom
half of the gate.
I always put the diagonal from the top hinge to the swinging outer
corner.
On 1 Jul 2006 18:10:16 -0700, "Jay Pique" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>Scott wrote:
>> Putting a diagonal from the top hinge to the outer swinging corner is only
>> as strong as the screws or nails that are holding it together. Putting the
>> diagonal from the upper swinging corner to the bottom hinge takes any
>> pressure causing the gate to want to droop and puts that pressure on the
>> bottom of the post that the gate is attached to and thus makes it virtually
>> undroopable (good luck finding that word on Google).
>
>Yes, that's what I've been thinking as well. Screws and nails will
>want to bend unless they are in tension, in which case you need to
>worry about them pulling out. And with pegged m&t you'd need to worry
>about the relish or glue failing. My gut tells me that a diagonal in
>compression would be safer. I have been known to be wrong.
You're right. We must never rely on screws, nails, glue, and
especially condiments.
Now, how do we make the rest of the gate?
-Leuf
In article <[email protected]>,
Elrond Hubbard <[email protected]> wrote:
> Is there any consensus on why one or the other is preferable? It seems to
> me that a triangle is a triangle is a triangle, and as long as one side of
> the triangle connects the two hinges, the choice of whether the other end
> is up or down is arbitrary.
>
> What say you?
top hinge to bottom outside.
Gravity will pull down the outer stile. The hinge stile gets pulled on
too, but the hinges hold it up. You wind up with a parallelogram whose
long diagonal is top hinge to bottom outside. Ergo, put the tension
diagonal on that line to hold up that bottom outside corner.
|H|\
| | \
| | \
|H\ |
\ |
\ |
\|
You could put a compression brace from bottom hinge to top outside, but
sufficient tension-resistance is cheaper in terms of weight than is
compression-resistance. Compression-resistive members have to be strong
enough to resist bowing. Yeah, yeah, one could use a magnesium I-beam or
something. Go with the wire cable and two-nut tensioner thingamabob.
--
"Keep your ass behind you."
On 1 Jul 2006 22:05:41 -0700, "Jay Pique" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>Leuf wrote:
>> You're right. We must never rely on screws, nails, glue, and
>> especially condiments.
>
>Don't put words in my mouth. I just said that you need not rely on
>them in this instance. And your ignorance is showing.
You're missing the point. The structure is only as strong as the
weakest link. You accomplish nothing by making this one element
stronger. And it's rude to stare at someone's ignorance.
-Leuf
Took about ten seconds:
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=undroopable&meta=
- Owen -
"Scott" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> unfortunetly not enough to make the hours, that I'm sure you spent looking
> for it, worth while
>
> "Owen Lawrence" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> bottom of the post that the gate is attached to and thus makes it
>>> virtually
>>> undroopable (good luck finding that word on Google).
>>
>> http://4x4xplor.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=974&sid=224ed5138ad241d9b890a853d98ac95b
>>
>> What do I win?
>>
>> - Owen -
>>
>
>
On 30 Jun 2006 13:11:08 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>I am building a garden gate and my design prevents me from using a
>diagonal brace. I am planning on using mortise and tenon joinery (with
>pins) for the frame. (The design is somethig like this:
>http://www.prowellwoodworks.com/gate/g_98.htm.) The gate will be quite
>heavy (46" x72") and the frame will be 2x6 cedar.
>
>My question is: Are glued and pinned mortise and tenon joints enough to
>prevent sag? Has anyone built a heavy gate using mortise and tenon
>joinery who can tell me how they hold up?
>
>Secondly, what if there was a diagonal brace only on the bottom half of
>the gate? (The top portion will be lattice.) Would that serve the
>same purpose, or does a diagonal brace have to go all the way across
>the gate? I really don't want any diagonal brace at all, but I might
>be willing to compromise design for structural integrity.
>
>Thanks in advance for any input.
>
>Bert
Heavy or wide wooden gates will sag over time and a diagonal member
will help prevent the gate from getting out of square. The diagonal
should be placed from the bottom hinge area to the upper corner that
swings out. By design, triangles stiffen any structure and that what
you want. A single wooden diagonal will resist compression and
tension. You can take a chance and make your gate without the
diagonal, then later add a cable and turnbuckle if your gate begins to
sag. I can't say if just making the diagonal halfway will be
adequate, as I don't know the forces the gate might need to take, how
long you expect it to last, and how well it will be maintained.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I am building a garden gate and my design prevents me from using a
> diagonal brace. I am planning on using mortise and tenon joinery (with
> pins) for the frame. (The design is somethig like this:
> http://www.prowellwoodworks.com/gate/g_98.htm.) The gate will be quite
> heavy (46" x72") and the frame will be 2x6 cedar.
>
> My question is: Are glued and pinned mortise and tenon joints enough to
> prevent sag? Has anyone built a heavy gate using mortise and tenon
> joinery who can tell me how they hold up?
>
> Secondly, what if there was a diagonal brace only on the bottom half of
> the gate? (The top portion will be lattice.) Would that serve the
> same purpose, or does a diagonal brace have to go all the way across
> the gate? I really don't want any diagonal brace at all, but I might
> be willing to compromise design for structural integrity.
>
> Thanks in advance for any input.
>
>
I've built similar gates from Western red cedar, milled to 1 1/2" thick,
using m&t joinery. The gates are 48" wide by 72" tall. The joints are not
pinned. I glued the joints with Gorilla Glue. They are 4 years old and
haven't sagged yet. The stiles and rails are 2X6 and the panels are 3/4"
stock.
I put headers across the gate posts to prevent the posts from leaning.
I can post a pdf file of the drawing on abpw news group if you want to see
it.
I don't think your gate needs the diagonal if you use m&t joints.