suggestions for fixing a wiring mess in the shop...

In article <[email protected]>,
Silvan <[email protected]> wrote:
>Long story short, I have a 30-amp, double-pole breaker wired to 10/2 cable.
>Black and white to the two poles on the breaker, bare ground to the
>combined neutral/ground bus bar.
>
>The shop has four 20A receptacles. Black to the "hot" side, white to the
>"neutral" side, and bare to the green ground screw. I was wiring them like
>I've wired every other receptacle in my life (all 110)... What I didn't
>realize was that I had a double pole breaker. Rather, I asked for a 30A
>breaker (since I had pulled 10-ga. wire), and never considered the
>ramifications of the fact that the thing he handed me was double-pole; not
>even as I merrily hooked it up like all the other double-pole breakers in
>the panel.
>
>I just didn't think. I've done some wiring projects successfully, and I
>fell into the trap of thinking I knew what I was doing. I obviously
>didn't, and I'm very lucky that the worst consequence of this mishap was a
>blown ballast and a fried voltometer.

*INDEED*

>What I have is half-assed 220. I'm not sure if I could just rewire my big
>motors and use this with 10/2 cable

In theory, yes. It is _almost_certain_ to be a violation of electrical code
to have a 'white' wire that is 'hot'. which *is*, as your found out, what you
have.

> (or maybe run an extra red wire) or
>really what my options are at this point.

Is the wiring 'in conduit', or is it something like 'romex'? If in conduit,
then pulling an extra conductor _is_ a viable option. If not in conduit,
and there is any sort of governing electrical code, its a 'sure bet' that it
is -not- allowed. And, even if it is, you *don't* want to do that. The risk
of it getting 'nicked', cut, etc. is just too great.

>Seems the easy thing is to just throw away the $60 breaker (can't return it,
>and I have no other use for it) and buy a 20A SINGLE POLE, then continue
>with the original plan, but then there's the non-trivial problem that I
>have cut the neutral too short to make it to the bus bar, and I already
>took up the slack at both ends of the run.
>

If it comes to that, *don't* throw that breaker away. You might have
use for it someday in the future, OR, after identifying what kind of
a panel it fits (from the price, I'm guessing "Federal Pacific"), you
might be able to sell it to somebody here on the wreck (for maybe 2/3
of your cost).
>It's a big mess. I deserve all the "hire an electrician before you burn
>your house down, you moron" type comments that I'm sure will follow, but
>I'm *not* stupid. I just had my head up my ass. I could use some advice,
>on how to get it out without electrocuting myself, or burning anything
>down.
>

You're right. You've got a problem.


STEP ONE. *DISCONNECT*EVERYTHING* from that 30-A 2-pole breaker, and tape
off the loose ends. This eliminates the possibility of additional accidents
while you 'consider' how to fix the problem.

What your options are depends on where you live, and what electrical code
there allows.

In places with 'modern' electrical code, you are *NOT* allowed to have any
splices, or other interconnects _inside_ the breaker panel. Has to be in
a separate junction box. *DUMB*, *STUPID*, but true -- and I've got the
3-months-ago rewired main panel and junction box to prove it. All but _two_
circuits go from the panel through the junction box ( yeah, *big* junction
box :).

To get the 'white' NEUTRAL to reach the neutral bus, you have a couple of
options:
1) replace the run with wire of 'adequate' length.
2) install a junction box _outside_ the panel, and splice on an additional
length of wire at that point.

*NOTE* you've just rediscovered why it is a GOOD IDEA(tm) to _leave_ as much
slack as you reasonably can, at _both_ ends of the run.


As far as the breaker, I don't know anything that prohibits using "only one
side" of a double-pole breaker for a single circuit. It is, obviously,
"inefficent" use of panel space to do so, But I don't think that that is a
'crime' under electrical code. Check with a professional in your area to
confirm.

You _do_ need to check electrical code restrictions in your locale, re: the
use of 30A breakers. A fair number of jurisdictions restrict circuits above
20A to a _single_ outlet. 20A is considered an 'appliance' circuit; any
thing above that is classed as 'equipment'/'machinery'. Different animals,
according to the NEC.

Roy Smith wrote:

> You say you've already cut the white wire too short? Well, don't do
> that the next time! You want to leave lots of spare wire in the panel
> box, just in case you need to re-arrange things in the future.

Turns out I did leave enough slack, after I shuffled things in the attic, so
this is pretty much a no-brainer now. Get the right breaker, and continue
from here. With 10/2 wire and a 20A breaker and 20A receptacles, I should
be fine.

An expensive lesson, but not as expensive as it might have been. $100+ down
the toilet, but nobody dead, and nothing charred except some cheap light
fixtures.

I did try the remaining lights briefly (on an extension chord), and another
one of them let the smoke out immediately, so I pulled every light, cut the
chords off and wrote "FRIED" on them with a sharpie to prevent some
curbside deal seeker from having an accident.

> Note, if you've got 20A outlets, you want a 20A breaker. Putting a 20A
> outlet on a 30A breaker (such as you asked for originally) would allow
> the outlet to be overloaded without tripping the breaker. This is a bad
> thing (of the burning down the house variety).

Yeah, obviously, WTF was I thinking???

> All that notwithstanding, it really does sound like you might be in over
> your head with this stuff. If you're determined to do the work
> yourself, at the very least have it inspected by a real electrician to
> make sure you havn't done something disasterous.

Good, sound advice that I can't argue with. I sure haven't done a very good
job of demonstrating competence on this job. Or on a lot of other things
lately.

I should stick to building catapults.

> If you really have no other use for the double-pole breaker, send it to
> me. I could put it to good use :-)

I'll hang onto the thing for awhile, I suppose, in case I run into someone
who does need it. Ask me about it again in six months to a year, and if
it's still in a drawer somewhere, you can have it.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
Confirmed post number: 16954 Approximate word count: 508620
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

It is certainly permissible for a properly installed 220 circuit ... even
_required_ in most locales ... if not just plain common sense.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/28/03


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
>
> Robert Bonomi wrote:
>
> > In theory, yes. It is _almost_certain_ to be a violation of
> > electrical code to have a 'white' wire that is 'hot'. which *is*, as
> > your found out, what you have.
>
> I thought that it was permissable if the white wire was marked at both
ends
> as a hot (using either black tape or permanent marker for instance)? I've
> seen several such installations pass inspection, and fairly recently at
> that, so I thought it was permissable. Perhaps they just aren't strict
> about that around here though.

Silvan wrote:

> Long story short, I have a 30-amp, double-pole breaker wired to 10/2
> cable. Black and white to the two poles on the breaker, bare ground to
> the combined neutral/ground bus bar. The shop has four 20A receptacles.
> Black to the "hot" side, white to the "neutral" side, and bare to the
> green ground screw.

Wow. First time I've heard of that one. ;-)


> I'm not sure if I could just rewire my big motors and use this with 10/2
> cable (or maybe run an extra red wire) or really what my options are at
> this point.

Well, I can see three possible solutions. Which one is best depends on
your particular needs and how your shop is laid out I suppose...

(1) As you suggested, buy a 20A single pole breaker and call it a day. It
sounds like this is what you were really trying to do to begin with, so
this may be the best solution. As for the neutral length problem, you
could simply wire-nut another piece of neutral conductor on to the existing
one. I don't know if a wire-nut inside of a breaker panel is allowable by
code where you are, but then again, what you have now certainly is not, so
you'll be in much better shape than you are now. :-) Having the larger
wire is not a problem or a safety concern - only having wire too small for
the breaker would be a problem, not vice-versa.

(2) Same as #1, but re-run 12/2 wire, since this is really all that you
need for a 20A circuit. That way there isn't a wire nut, and no one will
look at this 30 years from now and wonder why the heck someone used 10/2
wire for a 20A circuit. :-) "Wire is cheap", but depending on how your
shop is laid out and how far it is to the panel, re-pulling the wire may
not be an attractive solution.

(3) As you also suggested, use it as a 240V circuit (after substituting the
correct receptacles) for your big motors (and presumably run an additional
circuit for 120V use, since I assume you have some things that won't run on
240V.) This solution is the most work, but there are some good reasons for
doing this: at 240V, motors (or anything else for that matter) draw half
the amps. This means significantly less draw on the circuit, less voltage
drop, quicker motor starts, etc. It can also help to better balance your
service load. I have my large motors (table saw and band saw) re-wired for
240V in my shop, and would never look back. They just plain work better,
especially the table saw.


> Seems the easy thing is to just throw away the $60 breaker (can't
> return it, and I have no other use for it)

Well, you may need it some day, so don't chuck it. Or you may be able to
sell it on-line to someone who *can* use it. You'll lose something on it
because it's "used", but it's better than just throwing it away.

Note that in addition to the three ideas above, you *could* simply move the
white wire to the neutral bar (after extending it with a wire nut so it
will reach), and leave everything else as is, still using the 30A breaker.
You'd just be using only one side of it, which would work fine. The other
side of the breaker would be unused, so it would waste a slot in your
panel, but it would work fine. This seems rather mickey-moused to me
however, and having 20A circuits on a 30A breaker is probably a code
violation (on top of having a wire-nut in your panel), so I wouldn't really
recommend it. It would work though.

Hope this helps.

Disclaimer: I'm not an electrician, I'm a woodworker.


- Jeff


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Wilson Lamb wrote:

> Why replace with 20A on this 10 ga circuit? It's good for 30 legally,
> somewhat more safely.

Well, he has a double-pole breaker and should probably replace it with a
single-pole if he does use it as a 120V circuit, for the reasons I
mentioned before (wasting a slot in the panel, meeting code, etc.) I just
figured that if he had to replace the breaker anyway, he might as well go
with a 20A. It'll be cheaper, and I didn't know if you can legally put a
30A breaker on a circuit with 20A receptacles. Perhaps you can, I just
don't know, so I erred on the side of caution. Obviously a 30A breaker
will protect the wire, which is it's main job, but I just didn't know if it
was up to code to use it with standard 15A or 20A receptacles. I've never
seen a circuit wired that way before.


> 20A at 120V will trip on even a small TS if it stalls.

It sure will. Been there, done that. :-) That's yet another reason I
decided to go 240V in my shop for everything that I could (thus far that's
only two of my machines, but growing!)


> I dont know how it relates to code, but you could even put in a small
> subpanel and use both 120/240!

The problem though is that he ran three wire cable (2 + ground), so he can
either use it as 120 (hot and neutral) or 240 (hot and hot), but to run a
subpanel off of it he'd need four wire cable, so he could have both the two
hots and neutral. So, to run a sub-panel, he'd need to pull new wire, and
he's back where he started again. :-)

FWIW, I put an 8-position sub-panel in my shop, feeding it with 6/3+g, and
a 50A breaker. Right now I have a 20A 120V circuit for benchtop and hand-
held tools, and a 20A 240V circuit for my table saw and band saw (I work
alone and would therefore never have both running at once, so I kept them
on the same circuit.) When I finally get a dust collector I'll have room
to add a dedicated circuit for it, and will still have 3 positions left in
the panel for future expansion if I need it, enough for a 240V and a 120V
circuit, or three 120V circuits. It's been working out pretty well for me
so far.


- Jeff


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Robert Bonomi wrote:

> In theory, yes. It is _almost_certain_ to be a violation of
> electrical code to have a 'white' wire that is 'hot'. which *is*, as
> your found out, what you have.

I thought that it was permissable if the white wire was marked at both ends
as a hot (using either black tape or permanent marker for instance)? I've
seen several such installations pass inspection, and fairly recently at
that, so I thought it was permissable. Perhaps they just aren't strict
about that around here though.


- Jeff


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Silvan <[email protected]> wrote:

> I did try the remaining lights briefly (on an extension chord), and another
> one of them let the smoke out immediately, so I pulled every light, cut the
> chords off and wrote "FRIED" on them with a sharpie to prevent some
> curbside deal seeker from having an accident.

I assume these are florescent light fixtures? Any that you did not
turn on with the 220, even if you wired them up, should still be OK.
If you turned them on, they are fried. But the ones you didn't try
to use will be fine.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

Jeff Morris wrote:

> was up to code to use it with standard 15A or 20A receptacles. I've never
> seen a circuit wired that way before.

I may have just stupidly been copying the rest of my house. 15A receptacles
on 20A circuits. Only 14-ga. wire. I'll bet that isn't to code either.
The more I look at my wiring, the more I realize there's probably a reason
why the underside of my tubs and other hidden, unfinished spaces are filled
with Budweiser cans.

Not that I've done any better for myself, mind you!

> two
> hots and neutral. So, to run a sub-panel, he'd need to pull new wire, and
> he's back where he started again. :-)

I don't know if I could make it reach far enough to feed a sub panel anyway
without pulling new wire. Maybe I could use the existing wire to pull the
new one, since I doubt I will ever manage to wrangle a fish tape through
that thing again.

Thanks to both for all the tips. I think what I'll do is pull the breaker,
buy a 20A single pole, and then consider a sub panel in the future, some
day after I have done a lot of homework. I only have one machine with
clear instructions for how to rewire as 220 anyway, and it's my horizontal
(metal-cutting) bandsaw, which I don't really consider the prime candidate
for 220ization. It may be possible to do others as well, but that's a
topic for more homework.

In the meantime, I've been running the shop with a horrible rat's nest of
extension chords for years, and I expect that a 20A dedicated circuit fed
with oversized wire will probably really improve things in of itself.
That's all I was *trying* to do in the first place. (So why did I buy a
30A breaker? I don't know. Tim Taylor syndrome?)

The neutral problem I can just take care of with a junction box, if I can't
make it stretch; if it's OK to put a junction box in the attic. I *think*
it *is* OK to put one in the attic, but not inside finished wall space.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
Confirmed post number: 16940 Approximate word count: 508200
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/