How can I determine if magnetic starter (switch) on my Grizzly 1023 is damaged?

The black wire is attached to the first breaker, the red wire is
> connected to the second breaker, the white wire is connected to the
> ground strip mounted around the breakers. The other end of the cable is
> connected in a similar fashion. The black is attached to one blade
> socked, the red is connected to the other blade socket, the white is
> attached to the ground socket. The green wire is attached to the case at
> each end of the cable.
>
> Dave N

Dave N

A white wire can not be used for ground unless marked with green. Tape
or permanent marker. (And some inspectors will not accept this) Both
the case and the appliance must be connected to ground.

Also the grounding appliance wire(s) must be pigtailed in this case so
that the appliance can be changed without disturbing the case ground.
The ground wire has two uses in this instance.

The Black and the Red wires don't have to be pigtailed since they have
a single use in this instance.

And also again different jurisdictions have different interpretations
for these things. Prior work is also has some part of this.

Bob AZ

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:51:11 -0400, B A R R Y <[email protected]>
wrote:

>> Possible code violation unless there is a dedicated ground system in
>> use. Rarely seen.

I think the most prevalent case is to simply use the bare ground wire
in the #/2 cable for the ground. Almost universally seen.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

B A R R Y wrote:
> Tom Veatch wrote:
>
>>
>> I think the most prevalent case is to simply use the bare ground wire
>> in the #/2 cable for the ground. Almost universally seen.
>
>
> That's how I understand it. Two hots and a ground, no neutral.
>
> Dryers and stoves need the neutral, because they also need 120v from the
> same circuit.

Very common, provided the connectors are a type 250 Volt NEMA 6-XX
(where XX = the rated amperage) connector to prevent a 120V appliance
from being plugged into the 220V outlet (and vise versa).

http://www.nooutage.com/nema_configurations.htm

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

Tom Veatch wrote:
>
> I think the most prevalent case is to simply use the bare ground wire
> in the #/2 cable for the ground. Almost universally seen.

That's how I understand it. Two hots and a ground, no neutral.

Dryers and stoves need the neutral, because they also need 120v from the
same circuit.

> >Also there is a possibility that your juristiction may require the
> >cable to be 10-3 with ground. This would give you a black, red and
> >white wire in the cable along with the ground.
>
> What do those jurisdictions require be done with the white wire which
> won't bet connected to anything on either end?
>
> Tom Veatch
> Wichita, KS
> USA

Tom

I am not sure what the jurisdictions and/or the NEC require for the
unused white wire. I see them cut back, just left hanging, taped back
and just pushed out of the way. I usually tape them back or cut them
back. Sometimes I find a wirenut on the white wire.

It is always nice to find a white wire to use for a neutral for a low
current use. Much more than a few amps and I run another hot from
another circuit breaker.

Just a note here:
220 volt appliances now require a separate neutral, white wire, if
there are any 110 volt loads. Such as receptacles etc.

Bob AZ

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:29:54 -0700 (PDT), Bob AZ <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Also there is a possibility that your juristiction may require the
>cable to be 10-3 with ground. This would give you a black, red and
>white wire in the cable along with the ground.

What do those jurisdictions require be done with the white wire which
won't bet connected to anything on either end?

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

Tom Veatch wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:29:54 -0700 (PDT), Bob AZ <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Also there is a possibility that your juristiction may require the
>> cable to be 10-3 with ground. This would give you a black, red and
>> white wire in the cable along with the ground.
>
> What do those jurisdictions require be done with the white wire which
> won't bet connected to anything on either end?
>
> Tom Veatch
> Wichita, KS
> USA

The black wire is attached to the first breaker, the red wire is
connected to the second breaker, the white wire is connected to the
ground strip mounted around the breakers. The other end of the cable is
connected in a similar fashion. The black is attached to one blade
socked, the red is connected to the other blade socket, the white is
attached to the ground socket. The green wire is attached to the case at
each end of the cable.

Dave N

On Sep 18, 5:44=A0pm, Jim Behning
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:26:00 -0500, "David G. Nagel"
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Jim Behning wrote:
> >> On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:52:43 -0500, "David G. Nagel"
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >>> Tom Veatch wrote:
> >>>> On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:29:54 -0700 (PDT), Bob =A0AZ <rwatson...@aol.=
com>
> >>>> wrote:
>
> >>>>> Also there is a possibility that your juristiction may require the
> >>>>> cable to be 10-3 with ground. This would give you a black, red and
> >>>>> white wire in the cable along with the ground.
> >>>> What do those jurisdictions require be done with the white wire whic=
h
> >>>> won't bet connected to anything on either end?
>
> >>>> Tom Veatch
> >>>> Wichita, KS
> >>>> USA
> >>> The black wire is attached to the first breaker, the red wire is
> >>> connected to the second breaker, the white wire is connected to the
> >>> ground strip mounted around the breakers. The other end of the cable =
is
> >>> connected in a similar fashion. The black is attached to one blade
> >>> socked, the red is connected to the other blade socket, the white is
> >>> attached to the ground socket. The green wire is attached to the case=
at
> >>> each end of the cable.
>
> >>> Dave N
>
> >> I do not know where you live but when you say the black attaches to
> >> one circuit breaker and the red attaches to another breaker. =A0That
> >> concerns me. You "should" have one 30 amp dual pole breaker. Yes some
> >> breakers have the ability to "bond" with a strap or something that
> >> causes both breakers to disconnect if there is a fault. Are these
> >> breakers "bonded" with a strap between the reset levers? If it is not
> >> then you could have deadly possibility of thinking the circuit is dead
> >> but still have 120 happening. I did once have a 3 pole breaker that
> >> when it popped it did not release all three legs. That was exciting.
> >> Note in the tutorial at the end that they show a double pole breaker.
> >> This breaker is one unit that connects to both hot buss bars and the
> >> trip levers are connected so if one leg has a fault it disconnects
> >> both legs. See page 4 where you see the hot busses above the breaker
> >> zigging and zagging. If you go to you local Home Depot, Lowes or good
> >> hardware store they have breakers you can touch and a panel box. You
> >> should be able to see the two separate hot busses there. If you pop
> >> out the double pole breaker you should see two separate and distinct
> >> buss bars underneath it. Once again your licensed electrician should
> >> be doing this stuff but looking at the home center is no risk of life.
>
> >> Was your electrician licensed?
>
> >> You should not be dealing with this anymore. Your licensed electrician
> >> should come back and show you with his multimeter that all is correct
> >> on his wiring job. I lost track of the thread so I am assuming that a
> >> professional did the wiring but stating you have two breakers makes me
> >> suspicious. I am not an electrician and I do not have the latest
> >> annotated NEC book to read up on breaker requirements.
>
> >> I have had licensed electricians do work improperly. They had to come
> >> out and redo their work. I had an air compressor with a dryer that
> >> they ran too small of wire. The conduit was pretty darn hot. They
> >> pulled bigger wire which helped. I suspect in retrospect that the
> >> conduit may have been too small but the compressor ran the few months
> >> it needed too without issue.
>
> >>http://homerepair.about.com/od/electricalrepair/ss/240v_breaker.htm
>
> >> When I work on my stuff I walk outside the house and I turn of the 200
> >> amp disconnect. When my licensed electrician reaches in to my box to
> >> do live work I tell him to wait a minute while I walk outside to
> >> disconnect. Even though he does commercial work every day while hot, I
> >> don't want fried electrician in my house. A guy blew himself up a few
> >> months ago doing live work in our office complex. His helper got a
> >> trip to the hospital. Power was out for a few days after that mess.
> >> Yes electricity can blow you up. Maybe not literally but with enough
> >> amps it can be pretty messy and deadly.
>
> >Maybe I should have been a little more specific about the breaker. I was
> >talking about a dual pole breaker. I absolutely agree that two seperate
> >breakers should never be used on a single circuit. My colors may be
> >backwards also. The point I was trying to make was to try to answer the
> >OP's question about the white wire. Also the GREEN safety wire should
> >ALWAYS be connected to the frames. A young man was killed where I used
> >to work due to the motor on a large fan shorting to ground. The fan was
> >setting on a wood pallet and the wiring was not safety grounded. When he
> >reached to restart the fan he became the ground. The electriction stated
> >to me that he always cut the green wire off. This was long before OSHA
> >existed.
>
> >I agree with everything you wrote.
>
> >Dave Nagel
>
> So who was the original poster? :-) I hope he is still safe and not
> victim of someone's questionable wiring job.

Still here. I've had some computer issues for a couple of weeks.
Scott nailed it. Electrician installed double pole breaker
incorrectly. My panel allows a double pole breaker to fit in slots
powered by same phase lead. I moved the breaker down one slot and
it's good now. Saw is running. Electrician's name removed from
Rolodex. :-)

Thanks for all the good input!

Jeff

On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:26:00 -0500, "David G. Nagel"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Jim Behning wrote:
>> On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:52:43 -0500, "David G. Nagel"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Tom Veatch wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:29:54 -0700 (PDT), Bob AZ <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Also there is a possibility that your juristiction may require the
>>>>> cable to be 10-3 with ground. This would give you a black, red and
>>>>> white wire in the cable along with the ground.
>>>> What do those jurisdictions require be done with the white wire which
>>>> won't bet connected to anything on either end?
>>>>
>>>> Tom Veatch
>>>> Wichita, KS
>>>> USA
>>> The black wire is attached to the first breaker, the red wire is
>>> connected to the second breaker, the white wire is connected to the
>>> ground strip mounted around the breakers. The other end of the cable is
>>> connected in a similar fashion. The black is attached to one blade
>>> socked, the red is connected to the other blade socket, the white is
>>> attached to the ground socket. The green wire is attached to the case at
>>> each end of the cable.
>>>
>>> Dave N
>>
>> I do not know where you live but when you say the black attaches to
>> one circuit breaker and the red attaches to another breaker. That
>> concerns me. You "should" have one 30 amp dual pole breaker. Yes some
>> breakers have the ability to "bond" with a strap or something that
>> causes both breakers to disconnect if there is a fault. Are these
>> breakers "bonded" with a strap between the reset levers? If it is not
>> then you could have deadly possibility of thinking the circuit is dead
>> but still have 120 happening. I did once have a 3 pole breaker that
>> when it popped it did not release all three legs. That was exciting.
>> Note in the tutorial at the end that they show a double pole breaker.
>> This breaker is one unit that connects to both hot buss bars and the
>> trip levers are connected so if one leg has a fault it disconnects
>> both legs. See page 4 where you see the hot busses above the breaker
>> zigging and zagging. If you go to you local Home Depot, Lowes or good
>> hardware store they have breakers you can touch and a panel box. You
>> should be able to see the two separate hot busses there. If you pop
>> out the double pole breaker you should see two separate and distinct
>> buss bars underneath it. Once again your licensed electrician should
>> be doing this stuff but looking at the home center is no risk of life.
>>
>> Was your electrician licensed?
>>
>> You should not be dealing with this anymore. Your licensed electrician
>> should come back and show you with his multimeter that all is correct
>> on his wiring job. I lost track of the thread so I am assuming that a
>> professional did the wiring but stating you have two breakers makes me
>> suspicious. I am not an electrician and I do not have the latest
>> annotated NEC book to read up on breaker requirements.
>>
>> I have had licensed electricians do work improperly. They had to come
>> out and redo their work. I had an air compressor with a dryer that
>> they ran too small of wire. The conduit was pretty darn hot. They
>> pulled bigger wire which helped. I suspect in retrospect that the
>> conduit may have been too small but the compressor ran the few months
>> it needed too without issue.
>>
>> http://homerepair.about.com/od/electricalrepair/ss/240v_breaker.htm
>>
>> When I work on my stuff I walk outside the house and I turn of the 200
>> amp disconnect. When my licensed electrician reaches in to my box to
>> do live work I tell him to wait a minute while I walk outside to
>> disconnect. Even though he does commercial work every day while hot, I
>> don't want fried electrician in my house. A guy blew himself up a few
>> months ago doing live work in our office complex. His helper got a
>> trip to the hospital. Power was out for a few days after that mess.
>> Yes electricity can blow you up. Maybe not literally but with enough
>> amps it can be pretty messy and deadly.
>
>Maybe I should have been a little more specific about the breaker. I was
>talking about a dual pole breaker. I absolutely agree that two seperate
>breakers should never be used on a single circuit. My colors may be
>backwards also. The point I was trying to make was to try to answer the
>OP's question about the white wire. Also the GREEN safety wire should
>ALWAYS be connected to the frames. A young man was killed where I used
>to work due to the motor on a large fan shorting to ground. The fan was
>setting on a wood pallet and the wiring was not safety grounded. When he
>reached to restart the fan he became the ground. The electriction stated
>to me that he always cut the green wire off. This was long before OSHA
>existed.
>
>I agree with everything you wrote.
>
>Dave Nagel
So who was the original poster? :-) I hope he is still safe and not
victim of someone's questionable wiring job.

On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 11:10:04 -0700 (PDT), JJ <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Thanks for the note Dan. I will verify. Is there any plausible
>reason that my supply coming off the double pole breaker would not be
>180 degrees out of phase?
>
>Jeff

If someone who wasn't watching or didn't know what they were doing
connected the wrong wires to the breakers, you could have that
condition. If the circuit is wired with NMC, you'll see the white wire
from one cable going to one breaker and the black wire going to a
different breaker. If you can't tell which wires feed the circuit,
trip the breaker and make sure both hot wires at the saw show zero
voltage to ground. If not, then one of the wires is connected to a
different breaker. If that's the case, keep tripping breakers until
both wires are cold. Then, swap the affected wires to correct the
problem. That's assuming the wire gauges that are swapped are correct
for the breaker they finally land on.

If that's not the case, it could be, as suggested elsewhere, the
breaker in use is not the correct type for the distribution box. I've
also heard tales of boxes in which some positions aren't usable for
double pole breakers because adjacent positions don't span both legs.
If that's the case, you'll see both wires go cold when you trip the
breaker. To correct that, you'll need to rearrange the vertical
position of the breakers so the double pole breaker is in the correct
position. I don't know if such boxes exist or not. In my limited
experience, I've not encountered one, or haven't noticed if I did.

One other thought is that if the circuit was "self-installed" and a
half height breaker (two breakers in a single position) was used, or
if someone has been monkeying around with the wiring and both wires
ended up landing on one of those, you'd see the results you're seeing.
I assume that's not the case since you'd surely have noticed that by
now.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

Jim Behning wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:52:43 -0500, "David G. Nagel"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Tom Veatch wrote:
>>> On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:29:54 -0700 (PDT), Bob AZ <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Also there is a possibility that your juristiction may require the
>>>> cable to be 10-3 with ground. This would give you a black, red and
>>>> white wire in the cable along with the ground.
>>> What do those jurisdictions require be done with the white wire which
>>> won't bet connected to anything on either end?
>>>
>>> Tom Veatch
>>> Wichita, KS
>>> USA
>> The black wire is attached to the first breaker, the red wire is
>> connected to the second breaker, the white wire is connected to the
>> ground strip mounted around the breakers. The other end of the cable is
>> connected in a similar fashion. The black is attached to one blade
>> socked, the red is connected to the other blade socket, the white is
>> attached to the ground socket. The green wire is attached to the case at
>> each end of the cable.
>>
>> Dave N
>
> I do not know where you live but when you say the black attaches to
> one circuit breaker and the red attaches to another breaker. That
> concerns me. You "should" have one 30 amp dual pole breaker. Yes some
> breakers have the ability to "bond" with a strap or something that
> causes both breakers to disconnect if there is a fault. Are these
> breakers "bonded" with a strap between the reset levers? If it is not
> then you could have deadly possibility of thinking the circuit is dead
> but still have 120 happening. I did once have a 3 pole breaker that
> when it popped it did not release all three legs. That was exciting.
> Note in the tutorial at the end that they show a double pole breaker.
> This breaker is one unit that connects to both hot buss bars and the
> trip levers are connected so if one leg has a fault it disconnects
> both legs. See page 4 where you see the hot busses above the breaker
> zigging and zagging. If you go to you local Home Depot, Lowes or good
> hardware store they have breakers you can touch and a panel box. You
> should be able to see the two separate hot busses there. If you pop
> out the double pole breaker you should see two separate and distinct
> buss bars underneath it. Once again your licensed electrician should
> be doing this stuff but looking at the home center is no risk of life.
>
> Was your electrician licensed?
>
> You should not be dealing with this anymore. Your licensed electrician
> should come back and show you with his multimeter that all is correct
> on his wiring job. I lost track of the thread so I am assuming that a
> professional did the wiring but stating you have two breakers makes me
> suspicious. I am not an electrician and I do not have the latest
> annotated NEC book to read up on breaker requirements.
>
> I have had licensed electricians do work improperly. They had to come
> out and redo their work. I had an air compressor with a dryer that
> they ran too small of wire. The conduit was pretty darn hot. They
> pulled bigger wire which helped. I suspect in retrospect that the
> conduit may have been too small but the compressor ran the few months
> it needed too without issue.
>
> http://homerepair.about.com/od/electricalrepair/ss/240v_breaker.htm
>
> When I work on my stuff I walk outside the house and I turn of the 200
> amp disconnect. When my licensed electrician reaches in to my box to
> do live work I tell him to wait a minute while I walk outside to
> disconnect. Even though he does commercial work every day while hot, I
> don't want fried electrician in my house. A guy blew himself up a few
> months ago doing live work in our office complex. His helper got a
> trip to the hospital. Power was out for a few days after that mess.
> Yes electricity can blow you up. Maybe not literally but with enough
> amps it can be pretty messy and deadly.

Maybe I should have been a little more specific about the breaker. I was
talking about a dual pole breaker. I absolutely agree that two seperate
breakers should never be used on a single circuit. My colors may be
backwards also. The point I was trying to make was to try to answer the
OP's question about the white wire. Also the GREEN safety wire should
ALWAYS be connected to the frames. A young man was killed where I used
to work due to the motor on a large fan shorting to ground. The fan was
setting on a wood pallet and the wiring was not safety grounded. When he
reached to restart the fan he became the ground. The electriction stated
to me that he always cut the green wire off. This was long before OSHA
existed.

I agree with everything you wrote.

Dave Nagel

On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 00:16:36 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> wrote:

...
>
>"10/2" is shorthand for 10/2/WG.
>
>IOW: L1(Black), L2 (Red), and bare earth ground in a common sheath.
>
>"10/3" same as above except add N(White).
>

Lew, are you sure you didn't misspeak there? As I recall, all the 2+G
NMC I've seen was Black/White/Bare. I've not seen the Red wire except
in 3+G cables. Maybe there's a different NMC color combination cable
for use in 240v circuits?

Don't think you'd want to choose a Black/Red/Bare for a 120v circuit.
'Course that's probably no worse than using Black/White/Bare for 240v.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:52:43 -0500, "David G. Nagel"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Tom Veatch wrote:
>> On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:29:54 -0700 (PDT), Bob AZ <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Also there is a possibility that your juristiction may require the
>>> cable to be 10-3 with ground. This would give you a black, red and
>>> white wire in the cable along with the ground.
>>
>> What do those jurisdictions require be done with the white wire which
>> won't bet connected to anything on either end?
>>
>> Tom Veatch
>> Wichita, KS
>> USA
>
>The black wire is attached to the first breaker, the red wire is
>connected to the second breaker, the white wire is connected to the
>ground strip mounted around the breakers. The other end of the cable is
>connected in a similar fashion. The black is attached to one blade
>socked, the red is connected to the other blade socket, the white is
>attached to the ground socket. The green wire is attached to the case at
>each end of the cable.
>
>Dave N

I do not know where you live but when you say the black attaches to
one circuit breaker and the red attaches to another breaker. That
concerns me. You "should" have one 30 amp dual pole breaker. Yes some
breakers have the ability to "bond" with a strap or something that
causes both breakers to disconnect if there is a fault. Are these
breakers "bonded" with a strap between the reset levers? If it is not
then you could have deadly possibility of thinking the circuit is dead
but still have 120 happening. I did once have a 3 pole breaker that
when it popped it did not release all three legs. That was exciting.
Note in the tutorial at the end that they show a double pole breaker.
This breaker is one unit that connects to both hot buss bars and the
trip levers are connected so if one leg has a fault it disconnects
both legs. See page 4 where you see the hot busses above the breaker
zigging and zagging. If you go to you local Home Depot, Lowes or good
hardware store they have breakers you can touch and a panel box. You
should be able to see the two separate hot busses there. If you pop
out the double pole breaker you should see two separate and distinct
buss bars underneath it. Once again your licensed electrician should
be doing this stuff but looking at the home center is no risk of life.

Was your electrician licensed?

You should not be dealing with this anymore. Your licensed electrician
should come back and show you with his multimeter that all is correct
on his wiring job. I lost track of the thread so I am assuming that a
professional did the wiring but stating you have two breakers makes me
suspicious. I am not an electrician and I do not have the latest
annotated NEC book to read up on breaker requirements.

I have had licensed electricians do work improperly. They had to come
out and redo their work. I had an air compressor with a dryer that
they ran too small of wire. The conduit was pretty darn hot. They
pulled bigger wire which helped. I suspect in retrospect that the
conduit may have been too small but the compressor ran the few months
it needed too without issue.

http://homerepair.about.com/od/electricalrepair/ss/240v_breaker.htm

When I work on my stuff I walk outside the house and I turn of the 200
amp disconnect. When my licensed electrician reaches in to my box to
do live work I tell him to wait a minute while I walk outside to
disconnect. Even though he does commercial work every day while hot, I
don't want fried electrician in my house. A guy blew himself up a few
months ago doing live work in our office complex. His helper got a
trip to the hospital. Power was out for a few days after that mess.
Yes electricity can blow you up. Maybe not literally but with enough
amps it can be pretty messy and deadly.

<Tom Veatch> wrote:

> Lew, are you sure you didn't misspeak there? As I recall, all the
> 2+G
> NMC I've seen was Black/White/Bare.

I stand corrected.

Need to remember to engage brain before hitting <send> key.

Lew

BTW, I NEVER trust color codes. Always "ring" the circuit as I go.

Lew

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:52:43 -0500, "David G. Nagel"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>The black wire is attached to the first breaker, the red wire is
>connected to the second breaker, the white wire is connected to the
>ground strip mounted around the breakers. The other end of the cable is
>connected in a similar fashion. The black is attached to one blade
>socked, the red is connected to the other blade socket, the white is
>attached to the ground socket. The green wire is attached to the case at
>each end of the cable.
>
>Dave N

Well, I suppose local jurisdictions do differ. I'm just glad that the
local jurisdiction here doesn't require the unnecessary expense of two
parallel equipment grounding conductors. In this locale, 240v circuits
are wired with /2 cables where the 2 conductors are the hot wires
(white marked at the connections with black tape or heat shrink) and
the bare (never seen green in NMC) is used as the EGC.

In fact, I was under the opinion, apparently mistaken, that the NEC
held the white color code somewhat sacrosanct and required it be re
colored if used for anything other than the neutral conductor.

The only time /3 cables are used is for circuits required to supply
dual voltage (black and red hot, white neutral) or circuits that
include 3-way switches.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

Tom Veatch wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 00:16:36 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> ....
>
>>"10/2" is shorthand for 10/2/WG.
>>
>>IOW: L1(Black), L2 (Red), and bare earth ground in a common sheath.
>>
>>"10/3" same as above except add N(White).
>>
>
>
> Lew, are you sure you didn't misspeak there? As I recall, all the 2+G
> NMC I've seen was Black/White/Bare. I've not seen the Red wire except
> in 3+G cables. Maybe there's a different NMC color combination cable
> for use in 240v circuits?
>
> Don't think you'd want to choose a Black/Red/Bare for a 120v circuit.
> 'Course that's probably no worse than using Black/White/Bare for 240v.
>
> Tom Veatch
> Wichita, KS
> USA

I believe you are correct Tom. The white wire has to be either wrapped
with black electrical tape or marked with a permanent black marker to
indicate it is used as a hot lead.


--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
> I've seen examples that allow 2P breakers installed in non-2p slots,
> particularly last 60's/early 70's GE panelboxes.

I live in a home built in 1991 that has a GE box that will allow it.

This is why I asked the OP ~ 40 messages ago if he can read 220-240vac
hot to hot. I did it myself.

On Sep 17, 5:16=EF=BF=BDpm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "B A R R Y" wrote:
>
> > How do all those 240v air conditioners I see locally work with a 3
> > prong plug? =EF=BF=BD These are brand new installations.
>
> > I seriously doubt they are all violations.
>
> It's a nomenclature problem.
>
> "10/2" is shorthand for 10/2/WG.
>
> IOW: L1(Black), L2 (Red), and bare earth ground in a common sheath.
>
> "10/3" same as above except add N(White).
>
> Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
> You must be confusing GE loadcenters with another manufacturer.

Maybe my 1991 GE load center is defective.

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "B A R R Y" wrote:
>
>> How do all those 240v air conditioners I see locally work with a 3
>> prong plug? These are brand new installations.
>>
>> I seriously doubt they are all violations.
>
> It's a nomenclature problem.
>
> "10/2" is shorthand for 10/2/WG.
>
> IOW: L1(Black), L2 (Red), and bare earth ground in a common sheath.
>
> "10/3" same as above except add N(White).
>
> Lew
>
>


Maybe...

> How do all those 240v air conditioners I see locally work with a 3 prong
> plug? =EF=BF=BD These are brand new installations.
>
> I seriously doubt they are all violations.

Barry

A 240 volt installation requires only 2 wires and ground. Two hots and
a ground if you will.

I don't know of any cable of the type mentioned by the OP that are
just one black and one red wire with a ground. So the closest cable
available that I am familiar with that meets the NEC has a red and
black and a white wire together with a ground wire.

If a two wire cable with ground is used it is usually with a black and
a white wire with a ground. In this case the white wire must be ID'ed,
usually with red tape. There are also requirements for how the tape is
used for identification.

Take care
Bob AZ

Bob AZ wrote:
>> And yes, he ran new 10/2 cable from a double pole breaker to the new
>> receptacle.
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Jeff
>
> Possible code violation unless there is a dedicated ground system in
> use. Rarely seen.

How do all those 240v air conditioners I see locally work with a 3 prong
plug? These are brand new installations.

I seriously doubt they are all violations.

"B A R R Y" wrote:

> How do all those 240v air conditioners I see locally work with a 3
> prong plug? These are brand new installations.
>
> I seriously doubt they are all violations.

It's a nomenclature problem.

"10/2" is shorthand for 10/2/WG.

IOW: L1(Black), L2 (Red), and bare earth ground in a common sheath.

"10/3" same as above except add N(White).

Lew

"B A R R Y" wrote:

> Maybe my 1991 GE load center is defective.

Possible, but wonder if the installing contractor may have played some
games.

A proper 2P c'bkr will have a common internal trip in addition to the
handle tie.

The insulating plastic that supports the buss bars has stubs sticking
up that reject placing a 2P device in the wrong location.

Some c'bkr manufacturers for a while offered a handle tie kit that
would allow you to handle tie non GE, 1P c'bkrs together but didn't
have a common internal trip.

Breaking off the interfering stop, improperly handle tying 1P c'bkrs
are just a couple of the possible explanations.

Without inspecting the hardware, it is pure speculation.

Lew

Bob AZ wrote:
>
> If a two wire cable with ground is used it is usually with a black and
> a white wire with a ground. In this case the white wire must be ID'ed,
> usually with red tape. There are also requirements for how the tape is
> used for identification.
>

Right! Known as 10/2 where I am.

On Sep 14, 10:30 pm, Jim Behning
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 19:34:01 -0700, Dan Coby <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >JJ wrote:
>
> >> FYI...for the other person responding to this, the saw is 3hp, 240v,
> >> single phase.
>
> >> I am seeing 120v between L1/1 and ground. And also 120v between L3/5
> >> and ground. However, I am most definitely NOT seeing any volts
> >> between L1/1 and L3/5.
>
> >> Thanks for all the input!
> >> Jeff
>
> >In the US, a 240 volt circuit come from a transformer winding that is
> >'center tapped'. The center tap is connected to ground/neutral at the
> >distribution panel. The result is equivalent to two 120 volt circuits.
> >The two 120 volt circuits are 180 degrees out of phase. I.e. one circuit
> >is going positive while the other is going negative. The result is 240
> >volts between the hot sides of the two circuits.
>
> >You have indicated that you have 120 volts between the two outputs and
> >ground. That is consistent with normal expectations. However the fact
> >that you are seeing no voltage between the two output says that something
> >is strange. One plausible cause is that your '240' volt supply did not
> >come from two 120 volt circuits that are 180 degrees out of phase. If,
> >instead, the two circuits are in phase (0 degrees) you would see the
> >result that you have.
>
> >Check your supply, verify that you have 240 volts between the two hot wires.
>
> So are you using a L6-30 plug? Does the receptacle show 240 volts
> between the hot legs? Did your electrician run a brand new 10 gauge
> romex attached to a brand new double pole breaker? An amatuer
> electrician might say hot is hot and try to jumper both hot legs. Or
> he might hook both hot wires to the same leg on a breaker. Those
> people are not called electricians though. ;-)
>
> http://www.levitonproducts.com/catalog/dept_id_1001.htm?sid=11CC88804...
>
> Oops, asked already.

Yes, he put in a L6-30 receptacle and a matching plug on the saw.
I'll check the voltage across the hot legs at the receptacle when I
get home tonight. I suspect it will be the same as in the switch
(each hot to the ground will be 120v, but nothing across the hots).
And yes, he ran new 10/2 cable from a double pole breaker to the new
receptacle.

So, if each hot leg is supplying 120v, and they are coming off a
double pole breaker, does it make any sense for no volts across the
two hots? Could this be a bad breaker?

Jeff

> And yes, he ran new 10/2 cable from a double pole breaker to the new
> receptacle.
>
> - Show quoted text -

Jeff

Possible code violation unless there is a dedicated ground system in
use. Rarely seen.

Also there is a possibility that your juristiction may require the
cable to be 10-3 with ground. This would give you a black, red and
white wire in the cable along with the ground.

Bob AZ

On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 19:34:01 -0700, Dan Coby <[email protected]>
wrote:

>JJ wrote:
>>
>> FYI...for the other person responding to this, the saw is 3hp, 240v,
>> single phase.
>>
>> I am seeing 120v between L1/1 and ground. And also 120v between L3/5
>> and ground. However, I am most definitely NOT seeing any volts
>> between L1/1 and L3/5.
>>
>> Thanks for all the input!
>> Jeff
>
>In the US, a 240 volt circuit come from a transformer winding that is
>'center tapped'. The center tap is connected to ground/neutral at the
>distribution panel. The result is equivalent to two 120 volt circuits.
>The two 120 volt circuits are 180 degrees out of phase. I.e. one circuit
>is going positive while the other is going negative. The result is 240
>volts between the hot sides of the two circuits.
>
>You have indicated that you have 120 volts between the two outputs and
>ground. That is consistent with normal expectations. However the fact
>that you are seeing no voltage between the two output says that something
>is strange. One plausible cause is that your '240' volt supply did not
>come from two 120 volt circuits that are 180 degrees out of phase. If,
>instead, the two circuits are in phase (0 degrees) you would see the
>result that you have.
>
>Check your supply, verify that you have 240 volts between the two hot wires.

So are you using a L6-30 plug? Does the receptacle show 240 volts
between the hot legs? Did your electrician run a brand new 10 gauge
romex attached to a brand new double pole breaker? An amatuer
electrician might say hot is hot and try to jumper both hot legs. Or
he might hook both hot wires to the same leg on a breaker. Those
people are not called electricians though. ;-)

http://www.levitonproducts.com/catalog/dept_id_1001.htm?sid=11CC88804D1ECAE472CF657872DB6F7C&pid=1208

Oops, asked already.

"Scott Lurndal" wrote:

> I've seen examples that allow 2P breakers installed in non-2p slots,
> particularly last 60's/early 70's GE panelboxes.

As somebody responsible for the sale of GE loadcenters during the
above time period, I can guarantee that you could not install a 2P GE
c'bkr in an incorrect position in the loadcenter.

Engineering kept emphasizing to sales that this was a design feature
and should be pointed out to customers.

You must be confusing GE loadcenters with another manufacturer.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "B A R R Y" wrote:
>
>> Maybe my 1991 GE load center is defective.
>
> Possible, but wonder if the installing contractor may have played some
> games.
>
> A proper 2P c'bkr will have a common internal trip in addition to the
> handle tie.
>
> The insulating plastic that supports the buss bars has stubs sticking
> up that reject placing a 2P device in the wrong location.
>
> Some c'bkr manufacturers for a while offered a handle tie kit that
> would allow you to handle tie non GE, 1P c'bkrs together but didn't
> have a common internal trip.
>
> Breaking off the interfering stop, improperly handle tying 1P c'bkrs
> are just a couple of the possible explanations.
>
> Without inspecting the hardware, it is pure speculation.
>
> Lew
>
>

Thanks!

I'm going to be opening the panel in the next week or two as I run a new
DC feed. I'll look and report back.

"Scott Lurndal" wrote:

> More likely either not really a double pole breaker, or it was
> installed in the wrong slot in the panelbox. Some panelboxes only
> provide stubs for double pole breakers in certain positions.

All panel boxes will only allow 2P c'bkrs to be installed in true 2P
locations.

That said, there was a time when certain manufacturers provided handle
tie kits that could be improperly installed on a pair of 1P c'bkrs
which does not provide a 240V ck't, but rather a a 120V ck't.


Lew

JJ <[email protected]> writes:

>So, if each hot leg is supplying 120v, and they are coming off a
>double pole breaker, does it make any sense for no volts across the
>two hots? Could this be a bad breaker

More likely either not really a double pole breaker, or it was
installed in the wrong slot in the panelbox. Some panelboxes only
provide stubs for double pole breakers in certain positions.

scott

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>"Scott Lurndal" wrote:
>
>> More likely either not really a double pole breaker, or it was
>> installed in the wrong slot in the panelbox. Some panelboxes only
>> provide stubs for double pole breakers in certain positions.
>
>All panel boxes will only allow 2P c'bkrs to be installed in true 2P
>locations.

I've seen examples that allow 2P breakers installed in non-2p slots,
particularly last 60's/early 70's GE panelboxes.

I personally prefer Square-D which have never allowed that.

scott