I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure
how old it is. I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in
my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same
circuit. This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go
use the TS.
I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. This
is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. When you power on
the tool, the DC comes on. This works fine with my sander, mitre saw,
router, etc. But when I use the TS the breaker pops. This is new
electrical as of 1 year. I guess my question is does anybody know if
there is a kind of breaker that will handle a momentary spike like
this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing
this. I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all
by itself it will blow the breaker.
-Jim
Leon wrote:
>
> Something sounds like it could be wrong, I use a 1.5hp collector that
> recommends a 20 amp circuit, on 15 amp circuit along with a 15 amp router.
> Both coming on at the same time is a problem.
>
> In answer to your question, there are slow blow breakers to address
> situations like this but I would still be cautious.
>
>
There are also quite a few circuit breakers from a number of different
manufacturers that have been recalled due to failure to trip when
overloaded. Federal Pacific is one example:
http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpestlouis.htm
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
David G. Nagel wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>> jtpryan wrote:
>> ...
>>> and point out the folly of my logic. Say I put a 30 amp breaker in
>>> there to handle the initial spike. ...
>>> ... Is there something I'm missing?
>>
>> Yes. 12ga wire isn't rated (by Code) for 30A.
>>
>> It is a _VERY_ bad idea, akin to albeit not as bad as the penny in the
>> bottom of the fuse socket but the overcurrent condition required to
>> trip a 30A breaker on 20A-rated circuit is dangerous and should not be
>> considered.
>>
>> Either find a sequential switch or use something like the remote
>> switch I posted a link to, rearrange to use two circuits and a control
>> suitable for that arrangement, pull 10 ga and upgrade to a 30A circuit
>> or revert to manually starting one and then the other from their
>> respective manual switches.
>>
>> --
> The problem is not the current needed to trip the 30 amp breaker. If the
> current is there it will trip the breaker.
>
> The problem is the 29 amps that don't trip the 30 amp breaker. That is
> where the excess heat comes from to start the fire.
I agree.
dpb actually suggested a 30A breaker with appropriate #10 wire, but a
30A circuit is also a bad idea. Other than that I agree with dpb's
solutions.
A good solution is 2 circuits using a relay/contactor as suggested by
Bob Haller and dpb. The contactor coil connects to the Woodcraft
control. The contactor contacts are in the second circuit that powers
the DC. You could connect a time delay relay between the Woodcraft
control and the contactor so the DC would start a little later. A time
delay relay and contactor could also be connected to start the DC on the
same circuit after a short delay. It may be possible to add a time delay
relay to the Woodcraft control.
All circuit breakers that are used in a house have a time delay trip on
overload.
If motors are hardwired, a breaker may be larger than the wire size, but
it has to be designed properly.
--
bud--
On Mar 9, 9:58=A0am, jtpr <[email protected]> wrote:
> I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure
> how old it is. =A0I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in
> my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same
> circuit. =A0This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go
> use the TS.
>
> I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. =A0This
> is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. =A0When you power on
> the tool, the DC comes on. =A0This works fine with my sander, mitre saw,
> router, etc. =A0But when I use the TS the breaker pops. =A0This is new
> electrical as of 1 year. =A0I guess my question is does anybody know if
> there is a kind of breaker that will handle =A0a momentary spike like
> this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing
> this. =A0I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all
> by itself it will blow the breaker.
>
> -Jim
Use an amp meter to see if it pulls to much and something is wrong.
"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
> ...
>> I wonder how Festool does that. IIRC my Festool Vac delays starting up a
>> second or two after the tool that is plugged into ...
>
> It has a time delay.
>
> --
Yeah, about a second or two. I was wondering how they implement it.
On Mar 9, 11:05=A0am, bob haller <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mar 9, 10:58 am, jtpr <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure
> > how old it is. I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in
> > my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same
> > circuit. This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go
> > use the TS.
>
> > I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. This
> > is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. When you power on
> > the tool, the DC comes on. This works fine with my sander, mitre saw,
> > router, etc. But when I use the TS the breaker pops. This is new
> > electrical as of 1 year. I guess my question is does anybody know if
> > there is a kind of breaker that will handle a momentary spike like
> > this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing
> > this. I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all
> > by itself it will blow the breaker.
>
> > -Jim
>
> both are powering on at the exact same time, the high current draw is
> too much.
>
> can you put the saw on one breaker and the dust collector on a
> different circuit.
>
> table saws live better on a dedicated 20 amp circuit.
I could do that, but then I couldn't use the vac switch.
-Jim
"David G. Nagel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>> I wonder how Festool does that. IIRC my Festool Vac delays starting up a
>> second or two after the tool that is plugged into it gets past its
>> initial start up surge.
> Most likely a count down circuit of some sort. When the first motor starts
> so does the timer. When the first motor is up to speed the count down
> reaches zero and fires the second motor start.
>
> Dave
It seem the OP's switch should have had this feature to start with.
jtpryan wrote:
>
> OK, I would agree with that on the surface. But bear with me a minute
> and point out the folly of my logic. Say I put a 30 amp breaker in
> there to handle the initial spike. The point of this entire
> exercise is to have the DC running as little as possible and only as
> needed. So, that being said, how dangerous is it if I have the 30 in
> there, fire up the TS and DC for all of maybe 3 min at a time at the
> absolute max, probably less, and that's it. I do this as a hobby, not
> production, so my typical style is to turn on the TS, make 1 or 2
> cuts, and turn it off. Is there something I'm missing?
>
Why not compromise and replace the breaker with the "slo-blo" variety? They
are built to accept temporary surges without going all crazy. One variety is
"High Magnetic Circuit Breaker" which will withstand temporary loads of up
to 20x its rated capacity. Here's one:
http://www.siscobreakers.com/browseproducts/HOM120HM.html
If you read the above posts carefully, I think you'll see that it isn't
a good idea to change the breaker without increasing the wire size,
since you are really pushing that 12 ga. wire. You didn't say how long
the run from the main disconnect to the wall receptacle is. The longer
the run, the bigger the voltage drop to the tools, particularly in
Power-up mode.
I suggest that, to make sleeping at night easier, you get that
electrician back, replace the 12 ga wire with 10 ga, and THEN go to to
30 amp breaker.
If you DO consider going that way, anothe option is to consider
having them bring 220 to that point. Your saw, and maybe your DC may
be able to be rewired to run on 220. If so, you won't have to replace
the wires (you mentioned that they are yellow, (which is
wrong,anyway)so, as long as there's a gound wire, you have enough leads
to do the job.
Pete Stanaitis
---------------------------------------------------------------
jtpryan wrote:
> On Mar 9, 11:14 am, Gus <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Mar 9, 10:58 am, jtpr <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure
>>>how old it is. I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in
>>>my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same
>>>circuit. This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go
>>>use the TS.
>>
>>>I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. This
>>>is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. When you power on
>>>the tool, the DC comes on. This works fine with my sander, mitre saw,
>>>router, etc. But when I use the TS the breaker pops. This is new
>>>electrical as of 1 year. I guess my question is does anybody know if
>>>there is a kind of breaker that will handle a momentary spike like
>>>this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing
>>>this. I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all
>>>by itself it will blow the breaker.
>>
>>You can use a "slow trip" breaker - but be very aware of what you are
>>doing and the ramifications thereof.
>>
>>This saw draws 13 A at 120 VAC.
>>
>>Many (most) tools have a higher draw when starting than when running.
>>
>>Also, make darn sure that your "20 amp circuit" is actually WIRED for
>>20 AMP and not 15. Just something to check.
>>
>>Also, what else is using that line?
>
>
> Yes, it is wired 20 Amp, 12 gauge yellow. I had the electrician wire
> it for this when we renovated the house. Nothing else would be using
> the line, I just power on one tool at a time.
>
> How hard is it to change the breaker?
>
> Jim
"jtpr" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:47484fc7-7bc0-49f0-a24e-6825bd52f4a4@s31g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure
> how old it is. I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in
> my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same
> circuit. This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go
> use the TS.
>
> I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. This
> is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. When you power on
> the tool, the DC comes on. This works fine with my sander, mitre saw,
> router, etc. But when I use the TS the breaker pops. This is new
> electrical as of 1 year. I guess my question is does anybody know if
> there is a kind of breaker that will handle a momentary spike like
> this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing
> this. I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all
> by itself it will blow the breaker.
>
> -Jim
I wonder how Festool does that. IIRC my Festool Vac delays starting up a
second or two after the tool that is plugged into it gets past its initial
start up surge.
jtpryan wrote:
>>
>> Well, you guys put the fear of God (and the insurance company) in me.
>> No 30 Amp breaker. I will look for the "slo-blo" though. What I
>> don't get is how this product ever works, at least with table saws. I
>> think I have a prettty standard setup for the market they are trying
>> to reach.
>>
>> I'll see how the breaker change goes...
>>
>> -Jim
The product is designed for relatively low amperage devices, a sander
and a shopvac for example. It's not meant to be used with two 1.5 HP
motors.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
Leon wrote:
> "jtpr" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:47484fc7-7bc0-49f0-a24e-6825bd52f4a4@s31g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>> I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure
>> how old it is. I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in
>> my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same
>> circuit. This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go
>> use the TS.
>>
>> I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. This
>> is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. When you power on
>> the tool, the DC comes on. This works fine with my sander, mitre saw,
>> router, etc. But when I use the TS the breaker pops. This is new
>> electrical as of 1 year. I guess my question is does anybody know if
>> there is a kind of breaker that will handle a momentary spike like
>> this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing
>> this. I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all
>> by itself it will blow the breaker.
>>
>> -Jim
>
>
> I wonder how Festool does that. IIRC my Festool Vac delays starting up a
> second or two after the tool that is plugged into it gets past its initial
> start up surge.
>
>
Most likely a count down circuit of some sort. When the first motor
starts so does the timer. When the first motor is up to speed the count
down reaches zero and fires the second motor start.
Dave
"jtpr" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:47484fc7-7bc0-49f0-a24e-6825bd52f4a4@s31g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure
> how old it is. I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in
> my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same
> circuit. This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go
> use the TS.
>
> I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. This
> is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. When you power on
> the tool, the DC comes on. This works fine with my sander, mitre saw,
> router, etc. But when I use the TS the breaker pops. This is new
> electrical as of 1 year. I guess my question is does anybody know if
> there is a kind of breaker that will handle a momentary spike like
> this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing
> this. I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all
> by itself it will blow the breaker.
>
> -Jim
Something sounds like it could be wrong, I use a 1.5hp collector that
recommends a 20 amp circuit, on 15 amp circuit along with a 15 amp router.
Both coming on at the same time is a problem.
In answer to your question, there are slow blow breakers to address
situations like this but I would still be cautious.
jtpryan wrote:
> On Mar 9, 11:14 am, Gus <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Mar 9, 10:58 am, jtpr <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure
>>> how old it is. I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit
>>> in my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the
>>> same circuit. This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC
>>> then go use the TS.
>>
>>> I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. This
>>> is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. When you power
>>> on the tool, the DC comes on. This works fine with my sander, mitre
>>> saw, router, etc. But when I use the TS the breaker pops. This is
>>> new electrical as of 1 year. I guess my question is does anybody
>>> know if there is a kind of breaker that will handle a momentary
>>> spike like this or could there be something wrong with my DC that
>>> is causing this. I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp
>>> circuit all by itself it will blow the breaker.
>>
>> You can use a "slow trip" breaker - but be very aware of what you are
>> doing and the ramifications thereof.
>>
>> This saw draws 13 A at 120 VAC.
>>
>> Many (most) tools have a higher draw when starting than when running.
>>
>> Also, make darn sure that your "20 amp circuit" is actually WIRED for
>> 20 AMP and not 15. Just something to check.
>>
>> Also, what else is using that line?
>
> Yes, it is wired 20 Amp, 12 gauge yellow. I had the electrician wire
> it for this when we renovated the house. Nothing else would be using
> the line, I just power on one tool at a time.
>
> How hard is it to change the breaker?
>
Almost trivial.
0. Remove breaker panel cover.
1. Turn off the target breaker.
2. Remove the wire by unscrewing the connector.
3. Lever out the old breaker (look at the new breaker for the technique)
4. Insert the new breaker - push it down really hard
5. Re-connect the previously disconnected wire. Tighten the screw really
well.
6. Turn on the new breaker.
7. Replace panel cover.
Alternatively, you might try a radio controlled on-off switch. The kind that
allows you to turn on a lamp from across the room. Attach the remote control
to the table saw. Plug your jig saw (or a lamp) into the switch.
Start the saw, wait a sec, push the button to turn on the jig saw/lamp,
which, in turn, will activate the dust collector.
What you're trying to do here is avoid two high-current motors from starting
at the same time.
On Mar 9, 7:58=A0pm, Tom Veatch <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 13:39:57 -0700 (PDT), jtpryan <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > So, that being said, how dangerous is it if I have the 30 in
> >there, fire up the TS and DC for all of maybe 3 min at a time at the
> >absolute max, probably less, and that's it.
>
> It may not be dangerous at all. The wire ampacity is based on the
> temperature rise in the wire at a given current level and the maximum
> temperature the insulation can withstand without damage. It could be
> that for brief periods of usage and enough down time to allow the
> wires to cool, you'd never exceed the temperature limits of the
> wiring. But that's a pretty big if.
>
> If you decide to go that way, and the danger isn't trivial, when the
> fire department completes its investigation and finds a 30amp breaker
> feeding 12 ga wire, expect the company that wrote your homeowners
> insurance to refuse to pay the claim.
>
> Incidentally, if the circuit is properly sized for the full load
> amperage of the motors on the circuit, the starting inrush will not
> trip a properly functioning breaker. You don't need to size the
> breakers for the inrush, only the full load running amperage. If you
> want to size for inrush, look at the motor dataplate and multiply the
> amperage shown by about 5. Your 13 amp DC would need a breaker that
> supported over 60 amps.
>
> Tom Veatch
> Wichita, KS
> USA
Well, you guys put the fear of God (and the insurance company) in me.
No 30 Amp breaker. I will look for the "slo-blo" though. What I
don't get is how this product ever works, at least with table saws. I
think I have a prettty standard setup for the market they are trying
to reach.
I'll see how the breaker change goes...
-Jim
On Mar 9, 2:59=A0pm, spaco <[email protected]> wrote:
> If you read the above posts carefully, I think you'll see that it isn't
> a good idea to change the breaker without increasing the wire size,
> since you are really pushing that 12 ga. wire. =A0You didn't say how long
> the run from the main disconnect to the wall receptacle is. =A0The longer
> the run, the bigger the voltage drop to the tools, particularly in
> Power-up mode.
> =A0 =A0 I suggest that, to make sleeping at night easier, you get that
> electrician back, replace the 12 ga wire with 10 ga, and THEN go to to
> 30 amp breaker.
> =A0 =A0If you DO consider going that way, anothe option is to consider
> having them bring 220 to that point. =A0 Your saw, and maybe your DC may
> be able to be rewired to run on 220. =A0If so, you won't have to replace
> the wires (you mentioned that they are yellow, (which is
> wrong,anyway)so, as long as there's a gound wire, you have enough leads
> to do the job.
>
> Pete Stanaitis
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> jtpryan wrote:
> > On Mar 9, 11:14 am, Gus <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >>On Mar 9, 10:58 am, jtpr <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >>>I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure
> >>>how old it is. =A0I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit =
in
> >>>my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same
> >>>circuit. =A0This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go
> >>>use the TS.
>
> >>>I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. =A0This
> >>>is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. =A0When you power =
on
> >>>the tool, the DC comes on. =A0This works fine with my sander, mitre sa=
w,
> >>>router, etc. =A0But when I use the TS the breaker pops. =A0This is new
> >>>electrical as of 1 year. =A0I guess my question is does anybody know i=
f
> >>>there is a kind of breaker that will handle =A0a momentary spike like
> >>>this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing
> >>>this. =A0I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all
> >>>by itself it will blow the breaker.
>
> >>You can use a "slow trip" breaker - but be very aware of what you are
> >>doing and the ramifications thereof.
>
> >>This saw draws 13 A at 120 VAC.
>
> >>Many (most) tools have a higher draw when starting than when running.
>
> >>Also, make darn sure that your "20 amp circuit" is actually WIRED for
> >>20 AMP and not 15. Just something to check.
>
> >>Also, what else is using that line?
>
> > Yes, it is wired 20 Amp, 12 gauge yellow. =A0I had the electrician wire
> > it for this when we renovated the house. =A0Nothing else would be using
> > the line, I just power on one tool at a time.
>
> > How hard is it to change the breaker?
>
> > Jim
OK, I would agree with that on the surface. But bear with me a minute
and point out the folly of my logic. Say I put a 30 amp breaker in
there to handle the initial spike. The point of this entire
exercise is to have the DC running as little as possible and only as
needed. So, that being said, how dangerous is it if I have the 30 in
there, fire up the TS and DC for all of maybe 3 min at a time at the
absolute max, probably less, and that's it. I do this as a hobby, not
production, so my typical style is to turn on the TS, make 1 or 2
cuts, and turn it off. Is there something I'm missing?
-Jim
On Mar 9, 11:26=A0am, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:
> Gus wrote:
> > On Mar 9, 10:58 am, jtpr <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >>I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure
> >>how old it is. =A0I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit i=
n
> >>my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same
> >>circuit. =A0This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go
> >>use the TS.
>
> >>I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. =A0This
> >>is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. =A0When you power o=
n
> >>the tool, the DC comes on. =A0This works fine with my sander, mitre saw=
,
> >>router, etc. =A0But when I use the TS the breaker pops. =A0This is new
> >>electrical as of 1 year. =A0I guess my question is does anybody know if
> >>there is a kind of breaker that will handle =A0a momentary spike like
> >>this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing
> >>this. =A0I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all
> >>by itself it will blow the breaker.
>
> > You can use a "slow trip" breaker - but be very aware of what you are
> > doing and the ramifications thereof.
>
> > This saw draws 13 A at 120 VAC.
>
> > Many (most) tools have a higher draw when starting than when running.
>
> > Also, make darn sure that your "20 amp circuit" is actually WIRED for
> > 20 AMP and not 15. Just something to check.
>
> 13 amps for the saw and about the same for 1.5 HP dust collector.
> Typically a 110 volt auto-switch is rated for 15 amps or less. =A0Also
> check the current rating of the switch before you burn it out.
>
> --
> Jack Novak
> Buffalo, NY - USA
> [email protected]
So could there be something amiss with the DC as it blows a 15 amp
breaker?
-Jim
On Mar 9, 12:16=A0pm, stan <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mar 9, 11:58=A0am, jtpr <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure
> > how old it is. =A0I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit i=
n
> > my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same
> > circuit. =A0This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go
> > use the TS.
>
> > I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. =A0This
> > is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. =A0When you power o=
n
> > the tool, the DC comes on. =A0This works fine with my sander, mitre saw=
,
> > router, etc. =A0But when I use the TS the breaker pops. =A0This is new
> > electrical as of 1 year. =A0I guess my question is does anybody know if
> > there is a kind of breaker that will handle =A0a momentary spike like
> > this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing
> > this. =A0I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all
> > by itself it will blow the breaker.
>
> > -Jim
>
> Too much starting current. Wire them up so that the two items (both
> 115 volt?) are on different 15 amp circuits. It may take a bit of
> (safe) jiggery-pokery for the vacuum switch on one tool to start up
> the electrcity to the other tool (the dust collector motor which is
> wired to a different supply.
> I have exactly this set up, with a 230 volt table saw and then an
> arrangement to start up a 115 volt vacuum dust collector, which is not
> yet installed! Right now I can plug in a 115 volt window fan that then
> starts 'automatically' when the 230 volt bench saw is running.
> Naturally the 230 volt and the 115 volt supplies are on different
> circuits/breakers.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
How did you do that? There is only one "input" on the switch.
-Jim
On Mar 9, 11:14=A0am, Gus <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mar 9, 10:58=A0am, jtpr <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure
> > how old it is. =A0I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit i=
n
> > my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same
> > circuit. =A0This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go
> > use the TS.
>
> > I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. =A0This
> > is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. =A0When you power o=
n
> > the tool, the DC comes on. =A0This works fine with my sander, mitre saw=
,
> > router, etc. =A0But when I use the TS the breaker pops. =A0This is new
> > electrical as of 1 year. =A0I guess my question is does anybody know if
> > there is a kind of breaker that will handle =A0a momentary spike like
> > this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing
> > this. =A0I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all
> > by itself it will blow the breaker.
>
> You can use a "slow trip" breaker - but be very aware of what you are
> doing and the ramifications thereof.
>
> This saw draws 13 A at 120 VAC.
>
> Many (most) tools have a higher draw when starting than when running.
>
> Also, make darn sure that your "20 amp circuit" is actually WIRED for
> 20 AMP and not 15. Just something to check.
>
> Also, what else is using that line?
Yes, it is wired 20 Amp, 12 gauge yellow. I had the electrician wire
it for this when we renovated the house. Nothing else would be using
the line, I just power on one tool at a time.
How hard is it to change the breaker?
Jim
On Mar 9, 11:58=A0am, jtpr <[email protected]> wrote:
> I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure
> how old it is. =A0I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in
> my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same
> circuit. =A0This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go
> use the TS.
>
> I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. =A0This
> is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. =A0When you power on
> the tool, the DC comes on. =A0This works fine with my sander, mitre saw,
> router, etc. =A0But when I use the TS the breaker pops. =A0This is new
> electrical as of 1 year. =A0I guess my question is does anybody know if
> there is a kind of breaker that will handle =A0a momentary spike like
> this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing
> this. =A0I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all
> by itself it will blow the breaker.
>
> -Jim
Too much starting current. Wire them up so that the two items (both
115 volt?) are on different 15 amp circuits. It may take a bit of
(safe) jiggery-pokery for the vacuum switch on one tool to start up
the electrcity to the other tool (the dust collector motor which is
wired to a different supply.
I have exactly this set up, with a 230 volt table saw and then an
arrangement to start up a 115 volt vacuum dust collector, which is not
yet installed! Right now I can plug in a 115 volt window fan that then
starts 'automatically' when the 230 volt bench saw is running.
Naturally the 230 volt and the 115 volt supplies are on different
circuits/breakers.
On Mar 9, 10:58=A0am, jtpr <[email protected]> wrote:
> I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure
> how old it is. =A0I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in
> my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same
> circuit. =A0This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go
> use the TS.
>
> I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. =A0This
> is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. =A0When you power on
> the tool, the DC comes on. =A0This works fine with my sander, mitre saw,
> router, etc. =A0But when I use the TS the breaker pops. =A0This is new
> electrical as of 1 year. =A0I guess my question is does anybody know if
> there is a kind of breaker that will handle =A0a momentary spike like
> this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing
> this. =A0I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all
> by itself it will blow the breaker.
>
You can use a "slow trip" breaker - but be very aware of what you are
doing and the ramifications thereof.
This saw draws 13 A at 120 VAC.
Many (most) tools have a higher draw when starting than when running.
Also, make darn sure that your "20 amp circuit" is actually WIRED for
20 AMP and not 15. Just something to check.
Also, what else is using that line?
On Mar 9, 10:58=EF=BF=BDam, jtpr <[email protected]> wrote:
> I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure
> how old it is. =EF=BF=BDI currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circu=
it in
> my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same
> circuit. =EF=BF=BDThis works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then =
go
> use the TS.
>
> I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. =EF=BF=BDT=
his
> is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. =EF=BF=BDWhen you pow=
er on
> the tool, the DC comes on. =EF=BF=BDThis works fine with my sander, mitre=
saw,
> router, etc. =EF=BF=BDBut when I use the TS the breaker pops. =EF=BF=BDTh=
is is new
> electrical as of 1 year. =EF=BF=BDI guess my question is does anybody kno=
w if
> there is a kind of breaker that will handle =EF=BF=BDa momentary spike li=
ke
> this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing
> this. =EF=BF=BDI do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit =
all
> by itself it will blow the breaker.
>
> -Jim
both are powering on at the exact same time, the high current draw is
too much.
can you put the saw on one breaker and the dust collector on a
different circuit.
table saws live better on a dedicated 20 amp circuit.
jtpr wrote:
...
> I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. This
> is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. When you power on
> the tool, the DC comes on. This works fine with my sander, mitre saw,
> router, etc. But when I use the TS the breaker pops. ...
The easiest fix is to return the one you bought for the remote starting
switch...
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=5117&wcs=5855&pcs=fam
Alternatively, find one of the plug-in types similar to what you have
but that has a start delay built in as well as stopping to eliminate the
simultaneous starting surge or one that senses motor current from one
circuit but allows the tool to be on another. If the one you have plugs
into the saw outlet and the tool to be controlled plugs into it, it
would be more difficult to modify. There are just current sensors w/
start relays that serve the other function.
My only recommendation on breaker changeout would be that should have
run 30A service for shop circuit instead of 20A, but by Code that would
be 10ga, not 12ga.
A longer time-delay is probably possible to find, but I'd venture it
might be more expensive than the remote start option above.
jtpryan wrote:
...
> and point out the folly of my logic. Say I put a 30 amp breaker in
> there to handle the initial spike. ...
> ... Is there something I'm missing?
Yes. 12ga wire isn't rated (by Code) for 30A.
It is a _VERY_ bad idea, akin to albeit not as bad as the penny in the
bottom of the fuse socket but the overcurrent condition required to trip
a 30A breaker on 20A-rated circuit is dangerous and should not be
considered.
Either find a sequential switch or use something like the remote switch
I posted a link to, rearrange to use two circuits and a control suitable
for that arrangement, pull 10 ga and upgrade to a 30A circuit or revert
to manually starting one and then the other from their respective manual
switches.
--
"Tom Veatch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
<snip>
> If you decide to go that way, and the danger isn't trivial, when the
> fire department completes its investigation and finds a 30amp breaker
> feeding 12 ga wire, expect the company that wrote your homeowners
> insurance to refuse to pay the claim.
old wive's tale. you may have trouble getting another policy, especially
once you get into the national insurance database, but there's nothing in
current policies that states this.
<snip>
> Tom Veatch
> Wichita, KS
> USA
On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 08:36:45 -0700 (PDT), jtpryan <[email protected]>
wrote:
>So could there be something amiss with the DC as it blows a 15 amp
>breaker?
Immediately, or after it runs for a few seconds? What does the motor
dataplate list for amperage at 120v?
A DC is typically harder starting than a TC because of the rotary
inertia of the impeller. That will extend the DC's startup current
inrush for a longer time as compared to the TC. That's why
manufacturers of most DC's recommend a limit on number of starts per
hour.
Residential type circuit breakers are not usually instantaneous trip
and will tolerate a considerable overload for a short period - the
higher the overload, the shorter the period. So the breaker you have
should tolerate the startup "spike". But, If the DC is hard enough to
start and the running current is close enough to the breaker rating,
the starting inrush could last long enough to trip the breaker.
1.5 HP is getting pretty close to the limit for a 120v/15a circuit
even for a high efficiency motor. And a 120v/20a circuit is definitely
too small for a 1.5HP DC and a 13amp TS.
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 07:58:49 -0700 (PDT), jtpr <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure
>how old it is. I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in
>my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same
>circuit. This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go
>use the TS.
>
>I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. This
>is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. When you power on
>the tool, the DC comes on. This works fine with my sander, mitre saw,
>router, etc. But when I use the TS the breaker pops. This is new
>electrical as of 1 year. I guess my question is does anybody know if
>there is a kind of breaker that will handle a momentary spike like
>this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing
>this. I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all
>by itself it will blow the breaker.
>
>-Jim
You need a higher amp circuit, or plug DC and tabesaw into different
circuits, or switch to 220v. My lights used to momentarily dim as I
powered on the DC, but switching from 110v to 220v solved that. Plus,
there are other benefits to 220v.
jtpryan <[email protected]> wrote:
>OK, I would agree with that on the surface. But bear with me a minute
>and point out the folly of my logic. Say I put a 30 amp breaker in
>there to handle the initial spike. The point of this entire
>exercise is to have the DC running as little as possible and only as
>needed. So, that being said, how dangerous is it if I have the 30 in
>there, fire up the TS and DC for all of maybe 3 min at a time at the
>absolute max, probably less, and that's it. I do this as a hobby, not
>production, so my typical style is to turn on the TS, make 1 or 2
>cuts, and turn it off. Is there something I'm missing?
>
>-Jim
Yeah. The 20 amp breaker is to protect the 12ga wire. A 30 amp breaker
will not do it.
As you said in your original post, you can manually start the DC then
start the saw without tripping a breaker. The short delay while you
move from one switch to another allows the dc to get up to speed and
reduce the current draw before you start the saw motor, keeping the
total draw under 20 amps. It is possible that a heavy cut on the saw
could then bring the total draw back over 20amps, but the wiring is
still protected by the breaker.
Your automatic switch is trying to start the DC while the saw motor is
still starting up, so the total draw exceeds 20 amps, and the breaker
trips. A 30 amp breaker might let you use the auto switch for startup,
but then if a heavy cut requires more current, you could exceed the
20A limit of your wiring for a more than momentary period.
Also, you have created a circuit that is , at ALL times, unprotected,
illegal, unsafe, and probably not covered by your insurance. A time
delay 20amp breaker would be a better option, but expensive.
Just flip the switches yourself...
You are a DIYer, after all.
Gus wrote:
> On Mar 9, 10:58 am, jtpr <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure
>>how old it is. I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in
>>my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same
>>circuit. This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go
>>use the TS.
>>
>>I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. This
>>is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. When you power on
>>the tool, the DC comes on. This works fine with my sander, mitre saw,
>>router, etc. But when I use the TS the breaker pops. This is new
>>electrical as of 1 year. I guess my question is does anybody know if
>>there is a kind of breaker that will handle a momentary spike like
>>this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing
>>this. I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all
>>by itself it will blow the breaker.
>>
>
>
> You can use a "slow trip" breaker - but be very aware of what you are
> doing and the ramifications thereof.
>
> This saw draws 13 A at 120 VAC.
>
> Many (most) tools have a higher draw when starting than when running.
>
> Also, make darn sure that your "20 amp circuit" is actually WIRED for
> 20 AMP and not 15. Just something to check.
>
13 amps for the saw and about the same for 1.5 HP dust collector.
Typically a 110 volt auto-switch is rated for 15 amps or less. Also
check the current rating of the switch before you burn it out.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
dpb wrote:
> jtpryan wrote:
> ...
>> and point out the folly of my logic. Say I put a 30 amp breaker in
>> there to handle the initial spike. ...
>> ... Is there something I'm missing?
>
> Yes. 12ga wire isn't rated (by Code) for 30A.
>
> It is a _VERY_ bad idea, akin to albeit not as bad as the penny in the
> bottom of the fuse socket but the overcurrent condition required to trip
> a 30A breaker on 20A-rated circuit is dangerous and should not be
> considered.
>
> Either find a sequential switch or use something like the remote switch
> I posted a link to, rearrange to use two circuits and a control suitable
> for that arrangement, pull 10 ga and upgrade to a 30A circuit or revert
> to manually starting one and then the other from their respective manual
> switches.
>
> --
The problem is not the current needed to trip the 30 amp breaker. If the
current is there it will trip the breaker.
The problem is the 29 amps that don't trip the 30 amp breaker. That is
where the excess heat comes from to start the fire.
Dave
On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 13:39:57 -0700 (PDT), jtpryan <[email protected]>
wrote:
> So, that being said, how dangerous is it if I have the 30 in
>there, fire up the TS and DC for all of maybe 3 min at a time at the
>absolute max, probably less, and that's it.
It may not be dangerous at all. The wire ampacity is based on the
temperature rise in the wire at a given current level and the maximum
temperature the insulation can withstand without damage. It could be
that for brief periods of usage and enough down time to allow the
wires to cool, you'd never exceed the temperature limits of the
wiring. But that's a pretty big if.
If you decide to go that way, and the danger isn't trivial, when the
fire department completes its investigation and finds a 30amp breaker
feeding 12 ga wire, expect the company that wrote your homeowners
insurance to refuse to pay the claim.
Incidentally, if the circuit is properly sized for the full load
amperage of the motors on the circuit, the starting inrush will not
trip a properly functioning breaker. You don't need to size the
breakers for the inrush, only the full load running amperage. If you
want to size for inrush, look at the motor dataplate and multiply the
amperage shown by about 5. Your 13 amp DC would need a breaker that
supported over 60 amps.
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
jtpryan wrote:
> On Mar 9, 7:58 pm, Tom Veatch <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 13:39:57 -0700 (PDT), jtpryan <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> So, that being said, how dangerous is it if I have the 30 in
>>> there, fire up the TS and DC for all of maybe 3 min at a time at the
>>> absolute max, probably less, and that's it.
>> It may not be dangerous at all. The wire ampacity is based on the
>> temperature rise in the wire at a given current level and the maximum
>> temperature the insulation can withstand without damage. It could be
>> that for brief periods of usage and enough down time to allow the
>> wires to cool, you'd never exceed the temperature limits of the
>> wiring. But that's a pretty big if.
>>
>> If you decide to go that way, and the danger isn't trivial, when the
>> fire department completes its investigation and finds a 30amp breaker
>> feeding 12 ga wire, expect the company that wrote your homeowners
>> insurance to refuse to pay the claim.
>>
>> Incidentally, if the circuit is properly sized for the full load
>> amperage of the motors on the circuit, the starting inrush will not
>> trip a properly functioning breaker. You don't need to size the
>> breakers for the inrush, only the full load running amperage. If you
>> want to size for inrush, look at the motor dataplate and multiply the
>> amperage shown by about 5. Your 13 amp DC would need a breaker that
>> supported over 60 amps.
>>
>> Tom Veatch
>> Wichita, KS
>> USA
>
> Well, you guys put the fear of God (and the insurance company) in me.
> No 30 Amp breaker. I will look for the "slo-blo" though. What I
> don't get is how this product ever works, at least with table saws. I
> think I have a prettty standard setup for the market they are trying
> to reach.
>
> I'll see how the breaker change goes...
>
> -Jim
Jim;
You shouldn't fear the god of electricity or even insurance. Just have
an extremely healthy respect for both.
Dave
Breakers are designed with different trip curves depending on the
application.
Breakers designed for resistive loads will trip sooner than one designed to
handle motor inrush current. Each manufacturer typically has three or four
motor curves.
Find a local electrical supply and get a breaker rated for HVAC service.
"jtpr" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:47484fc7-7bc0-49f0-a24e-6825bd52f4a4@s31g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure
> how old it is. I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in
> my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same
> circuit. This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go
> use the TS.
>
> I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. This
> is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. When you power on
> the tool, the DC comes on. This works fine with my sander, mitre saw,
> router, etc. But when I use the TS the breaker pops. This is new
> electrical as of 1 year. I guess my question is does anybody know if
> there is a kind of breaker that will handle a momentary spike like
> this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing
> this. I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all
> by itself it will blow the breaker.
>
> -Jim