The adventure continues with the rebuilding of the "free" Craftsman 100
table saw. My friend brought back the casting with the arbor installed
with new bearings. There is a bit of side play to the arbor when the
end cap was replaced and it was all together. He seemed to think that
it was fine and said the way the clips and bearings work, there has to
be a bit of side play to let everything spin. He is a machinery repair
person and I am not, but it did not seem to totally make sense to me.
When the saw was reassembled and the belt is on, you can't get any play
in the arbor. Am I safe to go ahead and complete reassembly or do I
need to get the casting backout and try to remove the side play? (no
measurement on it, but a few thousands at most). I am not sure how to
get rid of the side play so am a bit lost here. Thanks in advance for
any guidance and information. David
On 27 Aug 2005 22:08:27 -0700, "Genedoc" <[email protected]> wrote:
>He seemed to think that
>it was fine and said the way the clips and bearings work, there has to
>be a bit of side play to let everything spin.
Completely untrue. There should be some end float to avoid locking it up
solid, but this is absolutely minimal for ball bearings and there
certainly shouldn't be side-float you can feel.
If you have side-float, you will of course "pulll it out" with the belt
tension. But your bearing is now only supported over half of the race
circumference and runout will be terrible.
The guy's an ignorant cowboy. Don't trust him for any repair work.
Mike LOL at your first reply, and me with a wobble dado already. The
play is side to side. It was gettng late at night when we were going
to re-install the casting that holds the arbor and when I pushed and
pulled on the end of the shaft there was some movement. I did not
check with the blade on but not belt, I am guessing that it would have
to be there. It got worse, as with the motor and belt on with my new
Forrest blade mounted, he said he measured .013 runout, which from what
I find in the NG seems like too much. The arbor and the flanges were
all clean. So, it may be I got what I paid for, but a lot of sweat and
no cuts is a bummer. I am going to have to take it all apart and try
to see where the side play it coming from. All suggestions (other then
making it an anchor-which is sounding better each day) to true up the
abror and blade are appreciated.
David
.013 is too much runout. try rotating the blade 180 and remeasure.
Also measure the flange of the arbor itself to see how much is at that
point. It needs to be REALLY small there. no more than .002 and
preferably a lot less.
On my Jet I can also get "play" when I go reef on the pulleys. And
whenever the brake engages on my 2 hp Grizzly upgrade motor the blade
is wiggled. I think this wipes out bearings in a few years.
As to your friend, my mother always told me:
Half the doctors graduate in the bottom half of their class. Taking
the assembly to a McGuire bearing or somewhere similar and having them
do the bearings might be wise. Heck, take the whole thing. :)
Alan
Alan, your mother was very wise. After reading Mike's post I went out
and took the belt off. In the light of a new day in socal, the arbor
will actually "rock" in the casting, the bearings are undersized as far
as the OD, I can see the movement with my naked eye. Don't understand
why he even assembled it and brought it back. What do I say when I see
him in a few hours. Sigh, it looks like a do over and yes, I will be
looking for some place that will do it right. Just need to find one in
my area that will bother with a small job. Thanks for your reply
David
Got one of the orginals back today, it is a Norma XF 121 PP, made in
USA.
I will try a bearing shop Monday taking everything with me. My friend
says that the bearings are .002 oversized and a non-standard size. The
ones he installed will fall out of the casting into your hand-that
explains the run out in part. If all else fails, Sears does list a
bearing for around $13. Thanks group for your help-I am getting very
frustrated at this point two weeks for a two hour job.
David
Thanks Mike, I really needed to see a word of encouragement this
morning, got the right bearings, reassembled with a new arbor from
Sears (original recommendation was to replace because of galling under
the pulley). Tweaked the trunions and then looked at the run out
(10,000 deleted expletives), the flange is crooked to the arbor! even
had to deburr the flange to mount the blade so nothing pushing it off
kilter. Yep, I have a box joint wobble cutter. Another friend who is
an aircraft certified mechanic (should be detail oriented at least) was
over and could not find anything else to account for the error, We used
several blades, checked the blades, cleaned everything etc, still over
.030 runout, you can see the blade wobble turning by hand. Sears
customer service is horrible. You have to buy the replacement with
shipping of course, pay to ship the bad part to a center in Dallas and
hope you get your credit card reimbursed, what a pain. I am not sure
it is worth taking the old arbor to the bearing store as the shaft
seems undersized to the id of all the bearings on hand (only wire
brushed to clean according to the first friend) so do not know why it
is off. This is becoming the summer of cursed power tools starting
with a new Delta 14" new X series bandsaw from the woodworking show
in May which has been anything but precision and a total pain to get
working correctly and still the doors won't even latch half the time.
The frustration is that one pass on a metal lathe would true
everything up but I can't find a local machinist that will bother
with such a small job at a price I can afford being on a fixed income.
Thanks for the response, and if I get any more frustrated, give me your
geographic location and I will catapult the saw your direction. I
thought there was to be a certain pleasure in extending the useful life
of a tool, but it is becoming elusive.
David
LOL. Thanks, I needed a laugh. I have not been a Sears fan for
several decades. Do remember the saw was a freebie or at very worst a
trade for some woodturning lessons so I am not a sheeple. I gave up on
Sears when I went through an entire bin of 3/8 x 12 extensions for a
socket and could not find one without a bow. The level of service in
the stores alone is enough to keep me out. Speaking of Sears and their
quality, got the casting out and got a hold of a dial indicator...the
flange shows more than .007 runout (wobble) while the arbor shaft has
nearly zero. Any bets on the replacement being better??? What is the
market for table saws that cuts a 1/4 kerf????? with a thing kerf
blade..arghhhh
David, not giving up yet...
Thank you for the great offer, I am in Upland, down in SoCal so it
would be a stretch. I was raised in Stanwood and will be looking at
property in mid Sept. for retirement. My brother was a machinist in
one of the Seattle shipyards for years. For the other fellow it is
still a mystery why he even put it together, but it is not worth losing
a friendship with a fellow church member over. Someday it will all be
running and not toooo much cost associated with it(I hope). Thanks
again for the offer of truing it up.
David
On 27 Aug 2005 22:08:27 -0700, "Genedoc" <[email protected]> wrote:
>The adventure continues with the rebuilding of the "free" Craftsman 100
>table saw. My friend brought back the casting with the arbor installed
>with new bearings. There is a bit of side play to the arbor when the
>end cap was replaced and it was all together. He seemed to think that
>it was fine and said the way the clips and bearings work, there has to
>be a bit of side play to let everything spin. He is a machinery repair
>person and I am not, but it did not seem to totally make sense to me.
>When the saw was reassembled and the belt is on, you can't get any play
>in the arbor. Am I safe to go ahead and complete reassembly or do I
>need to get the casting backout and try to remove the side play? (no
>measurement on it, but a few thousands at most). I am not sure how to
>get rid of the side play so am a bit lost here. Thanks in advance for
>any guidance and information. David
What are the numbers on the side of the bearings (along with mfgs.
name)?
"Genedoc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The adventure continues with the rebuilding of the "free" Craftsman 100
> table saw. My friend brought back the casting with the arbor installed
> with new bearings. There is a bit of side play to the arbor when the
> end cap was replaced and it was all together. He seemed to think that
> it was fine and said the way the clips and bearings work, there has to
> be a bit of side play to let everything spin. He is a machinery repair
> person and I am not, but it did not seem to totally make sense to me.
> When the saw was reassembled and the belt is on, you can't get any play
> in the arbor. Am I safe to go ahead and complete reassembly or do I
> need to get the casting backout and try to remove the side play? (no
> measurement on it, but a few thousands at most). I am not sure how to
> get rid of the side play so am a bit lost here. Thanks in advance for
> any guidance and information. David
>
Dave:
I'm not sure I'm following you when you say "side play". I can't get any
play in mine with the belt on or off so I can't figure out in which
direction you're seeing play. Clearly you don't want any play or your cuts
won't be accurate - but that's kind of an "obvious" statement. Is there any
play when the blade is mounted and tightened down - without the belt on?
It's hard to compare what's happening in a saw that's got quite a bit of use
on it (like mine), with a saw that has brand new parts. Your surfaces are
all cleaned up and mine bear the results of years of use. That alone may
make mine "feel" different than yours, even though yours may not really have
any problem. I'd like to be more specific in the way I attempt to offer
advice, but it's been too many years since I had my arbor apart. Maybe this
conversation will refresh my aging memory.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Genedoc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > in the arbor. Am I safe to go ahead and complete reassembly or do I
> > need to get the casting backout and try to remove the side play? (no
> > measurement on it, but a few thousands at most). I am not sure how to
> > get rid of the side play so am a bit lost here.
>
> There shouldn't be any noticeable play in the arbour. Spin forwards or
> backwards, but no play from side to side. Any play will transfer into
> wobbling your saw blade.
>
>
But just think of how much money he'll save on dado sets...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Genedoc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mike LOL at your first reply, and me with a wobble dado already. The
> play is side to side. It was gettng late at night when we were going
> to re-install the casting that holds the arbor and when I pushed and
> pulled on the end of the shaft there was some movement. I did not
> check with the blade on but not belt, I am guessing that it would have
> to be there. It got worse, as with the motor and belt on with my new
> Forrest blade mounted, he said he measured .013 runout, which from what
> I find in the NG seems like too much. The arbor and the flanges were
> all clean. So, it may be I got what I paid for, but a lot of sweat and
> no cuts is a bummer. I am going to have to take it all apart and try
> to see where the side play it coming from. All suggestions (other then
> making it an anchor-which is sounding better each day) to true up the
> abror and blade are appreciated.
>
Hey Dave. I'm thinking that this old Model 100 is becoming more of a
trouble to you than what you should be experiencing. You being a pretty
good guy and all, at least as it seems. I'm taking a little pity on your
plight and though I wouldn't do this for just anyone, I'm extending my offer
to you to simply take that onerous machine off your hands with no more
investment on your part than to pay the shipping to me.
Seriously... stick with it. I've already seen in the other posts that you
found the problem with under sized bearings, so it looks like you're well on
your way. Get that fixed and then spend the time to align the trunion to
dead nuts, (but settle for anything less than .005in) and you're going to be
very happy. The Model 100 is a very good saw and it will serve you well for
decades.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Genedoc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> in the arbor. Am I safe to go ahead and complete reassembly or do I
> need to get the casting backout and try to remove the side play? (no
> measurement on it, but a few thousands at most). I am not sure how to
> get rid of the side play so am a bit lost here.
There shouldn't be any noticeable play in the arbour. Spin forwards or
backwards, but no play from side to side. Any play will transfer into
wobbling your saw blade.
He should have never installed the undersized bearings. If the outer race is
allowed to turn, not only will the bearings fail quickly, it would likely
ruin the housing too. I would be real hesitant to let this guy work on
anything. Highly unlikely that they would be a custom size on production
machinery. Take them to a bearing specialist. They will match them up.
"Genedoc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Got one of the orginals back today, it is a Norma XF 121 PP, made in
> USA.
> I will try a bearing shop Monday taking everything with me. My friend
> says that the bearings are .002 oversized and a non-standard size. The
> ones he installed will fall out of the casting into your hand-that
> explains the run out in part. If all else fails, Sears does list a
> bearing for around $13. Thanks group for your help-I am getting very
> frustrated at this point two weeks for a two hour job.
>
> David
>
On 28 Aug 2005 13:20:24 -0700, "Genedoc" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Got one of the orginals back today, it is a Norma XF 121 PP, made in
>USA.
>I will try a bearing shop Monday taking everything with me. My friend
>says that the bearings are .002 oversized and a non-standard size. The
>ones he installed will fall out of the casting into your hand-that
>explains the run out in part. If all else fails, Sears does list a
>bearing for around $13. Thanks group for your help-I am getting very
>frustrated at this point two weeks for a two hour job.
>
>David
The arbor bearing fit should be" press" on the arbor shaft and "slip"
in the arbor bracket bore. Slip is not fall out in your hand but
should not have to have significant pressure to install them.
Mechanical engineering handbook defines (clearance or interference)
the fits and I don't have mine with me, but you can get one and look
it up.
Frank
On 30 Aug 2005 07:46:16 -0700, the blithe spirit "Genedoc"
<[email protected]> clearly indicated:
>Thanks Mike, I really needed to see a word of encouragement this
>morning, got the right bearings, reassembled with a new arbor from
>Sears (original recommendation was to replace because of galling under
>the pulley). Tweaked the trunions and then looked at the run out
>(10,000 deleted expletives), the flange is crooked to the arbor! even
>had to deburr the flange to mount the blade so nothing pushing it off
>kilter. Yep, I have a box joint wobble cutter. Another friend who is
>an aircraft certified mechanic (should be detail oriented at least) was
>over and could not find anything else to account for the error, We used
>several blades, checked the blades, cleaned everything etc, still over
>.030 runout, you can see the blade wobble turning by hand. Sears
>customer service is horrible. You have to buy the replacement with
>shipping of course, pay to ship the bad part to a center in Dallas and
>hope you get your credit card reimbursed, what a pain. I am not sure
OK, the big question now, Gene: Will you buy another Searz product?
If no, Welcome, Brother. You have just joined hundreds of thousands
(if not millions) of us who learned their lesson long ago, most with
Crapsman tools and the SDBTRS.*
If yes, your new moniker is "sheeple", as are millions. Hope you're
comfy with it and your new cousin, Blob Villa! <gd&r>
*(Searz Daily Broken Tool Replacement Syndrome)
--
Like they say, 99% of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
------------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Lawyer-free Website Development
On 30 Aug 2005 09:46:32 -0700, "Genedoc" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Speaking of Sears and their quality, got the casting out and got a hold
>of a dial indicator...the flange shows more than .007 runout (wobble)
>while the arbor shaft has nearly zero.
>David, not giving up yet...
Do I understand that the shaft is true but the integral flange is not?
What I recommend on my website (see it for Craftsman saw upgrade info)
and did at one time was put the saw back together (without a blade,
washers, or nut), fire it up and hold a file flat against the flange.
Sort of like a crude metal lathe. Light touch and several checks with
a straight edge and a dial indicator and you should be able to true it
up acceptably enough for wooddorking.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
If you're anywhere around Seattle, I'll do it for free. Just so you know,
I've been a machinist for 18 years. After the experience with the former guy
fitting your bearings, I thought you might want to know something about who
your dealing with.
"Genedoc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
ime.
> The frustration is that one pass on a metal lathe would true
> everything up but I can't find a local machinist that will bother
> with such a small job at a price I can afford being on a fixed income.