On Sep 21, 5:40 pm, Just Wondering <fmh...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
> > Just unbelievable. And nobody's doing a thing about it....
>
> >http://www.atlargely.com/2008/09/fascist-coup-ne.html
>
> An article that begins, "Well my friends - and the conservatives just
> now waking up after an 8 year mental vacation ..." has already
> demonstrated so much bias that it would be a waste of time to read any
> further.
Yup... MUCH better to stick your head in the sand (or up your ass, as
the case might be) than trying to become aware of others' points of
view.
The ARE points of view besides yours. Ignoring them doesn't disqualify
those points of view as invalid.
Annnnnnd, as you well know, the "Well, my friends..." line is almost a
McCain trademark.
If that article has a left bias, how does that suddenly mean that
another power grab is okay by you? You should be outraged that yet
another brick crumbles into dust.
I have no interest in debating this article, I just wanted to point
out yet another way that you're pissing your country and freedom
away...as well as your hard-earned wealth.
You just got dinged by a $ 7000.00 bill. And now you're willing to
sign away the right to challenge the dings which are yet to come?
But you didn't read the article.. did you......
Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> writes:
> Speaking of out of touch,
>you may wish to know that he majority in Congress - where
>appropriations actually take place - is, and has been for some
>time - Democrat.
Under two years. And GWB has vetoed _EVERYTHING_ they've
tried to do. You can't blame them for this mess, I'm afraid.
scott
Han wrote:
> Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> wrote in news:sk1hq5-imn1.ln1
> @ozzie.tundraware.com:
>
>> Robatoy wrote:
>>> Just unbelievable. And nobody's doing a thing about it....
>>>
>>> http://www.atlargely.com/2008/09/fascist-coup-ne.html
>> But, of course, if they were bailing out, say, crackheads,
>> the terminally lazy, the criminal class, and the generally
>> irresponsible, this would be known as ... a "good social
>> policy". Welfare is morally wrong, regardless of the
>> recipients.
>>
>> This "crisis" has a root cause that has nothing to do with the
>> insurance companies, the banks, the mortgage companies, the rich,
>> the oil companies, or any of the usual hated classes. This "crisis"
>> was induced by profligate government spending and the consequent
>> fiscal policies inflicted thereafter to try and "fix" the problem.
>>
>
> Tim, you're out of touch, or using an ostrich's view (head in sand).
> Didn't we have just about 8 years of Republican, fiscally "restrained"
> government?
No. We had a President who failed to control spending and who
accommodated a big spending congress. He was a Republican, but had
no fiscal restraint for the most part. Speaking of out of touch,
you may wish to know that he majority in Congress - where
appropriations actually take place - is, and has been for some
time - Democrat.
>
> IMO, the crisi is due to bank and financial institution greed and (de
> facto) deception generating uncontrolled and excessive debt, in large
> part hidden by a Ponzi scheme of insurance and overvaluation, where
> rating agencies get paid by the banks whom they rate, the banks who earn
> commissions on bigger and bigger loans they write and then sell to
> investors who get paper that is rated AAA because 1 in 100 of the
> underlying mortgages is AAA, while the rest is sludge. In fact, an
> underrregulated industry, financed and overseen by rich Republicans
> (tongue in cheek).
You're entitled to your opinion but that doesn't make it fact. What
you've just written is a repetition of a very tired class warfare
manifesto peddled by the left for years. It wasn't true years ago,
it still isn't. The so-called 'crisis' is the inevitable payday
due when an entire nation decides to go into debt and never pay it
back. The "greediest" portions of our economy are not financial
or insurance institutions. The biggest greed you will ever see is
the general public demanding benefits they've never paid for nor
earned and insisting it is their "right". Our nation is in
financial trouble because the rank and file citizen is a moocher and
sees no problem looting their neighbor's wallet to get what they want.
>
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk tundra@tundraware.com
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
On Sep 23, 12:31=A0am, "Rick Samuel" <richard.car...@qatar.tamu.edu>
wrote:
> > Yup... MUCH better to stick your head in the sand (or up your ass, as
> > the case might be) than trying to become aware of others' points of
> > view.
> > The ARE points of view besides yours. Ignoring them doesn't disqualify
> > those points of view as invalid.
>
> =A0What?! =A0An open mind?? =A0If you have one, someone will surely come =
along and
> shovel sh-- into it. <G>
LOL.. well, that's how politicians survive. Banners, placards,
commercials, all looking for that little crack into which to pour
garbage to feed the minds of the unsuspecting public.
Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> wrote in news:sk1hq5-imn1.ln1
@ozzie.tundraware.com:
> Robatoy wrote:
>> Just unbelievable. And nobody's doing a thing about it....
>>
>> http://www.atlargely.com/2008/09/fascist-coup-ne.html
>
> But, of course, if they were bailing out, say, crackheads,
> the terminally lazy, the criminal class, and the generally
> irresponsible, this would be known as ... a "good social
> policy". Welfare is morally wrong, regardless of the
> recipients.
>
> This "crisis" has a root cause that has nothing to do with the
> insurance companies, the banks, the mortgage companies, the rich,
> the oil companies, or any of the usual hated classes. This "crisis"
> was induced by profligate government spending and the consequent
> fiscal policies inflicted thereafter to try and "fix" the problem.
>
Tim, you're out of touch, or using an ostrich's view (head in sand).
Didn't we have just about 8 years of Republican, fiscally "restrained"
government?
IMO, the crisi is due to bank and financial institution greed and (de
facto) deception generating uncontrolled and excessive debt, in large
part hidden by a Ponzi scheme of insurance and overvaluation, where
rating agencies get paid by the banks whom they rate, the banks who earn
commissions on bigger and bigger loans they write and then sell to
investors who get paper that is rated AAA because 1 in 100 of the
underlying mortgages is AAA, while the rest is sludge. In fact, an
underrregulated industry, financed and overseen by rich Republicans
(tongue in cheek).
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> wrote in news:501iq5-ds62.ln1
@ozzie.tundraware.com:
> The so-called 'crisis' is the inevitable payday due when
> an entire nation decides to go into debt and never pay it back.
I totally agree!
> The "greediest" portions of our economy are not financial
> or insurance institutions.
Agree. It is the individuals in charge and the regulators who let them
do these outrageous things.
> The biggest greed you will ever see is the general public demanding
> benefits they've never paid for nor earned and insisting it is their
> "right". Our nation is in financial trouble because the rank and file
> citizen is a moocher and sees no problem looting their neighbor's
> wallet to get what they want.
Is that in principle any different from letting the CEOs and lobbyists
rob the common citizen? Neither is "good". What is good is helping your
fellow citizen fulfill their potential, and punishing those who rob. In
a well-functioning society providing for some is much better than
stomping them into the ground and fomenting terrorism of one kind or
another.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> wrote in
news:e7eiq5-1ad2.ln1@ozzie.tundraware.com:
> Han wrote:
>> Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> wrote in news:501iq5-ds62.ln1
>> @ozzie.tundraware.com:
>>
>>> The so-called 'crisis' is the inevitable payday due when
>>> an entire nation decides to go into debt and never pay it back.
>>
>> I totally agree!
>>
>>> The "greediest" portions of our economy are not financial
>>> or insurance institutions.
>>
>> Agree. It is the individuals in charge and the regulators who let
>> them do these outrageous things.
>>
>>> The biggest greed you will ever see is the general public demanding
>>> benefits they've never paid for nor earned and insisting it is their
>>> "right". Our nation is in financial trouble because the rank and
>>> file citizen is a moocher and sees no problem looting their
>>> neighbor's wallet to get what they want.
>>
>> Is that in principle any different from letting the CEOs and
>> lobbyists rob the common citizen? Neither is "good". What is good
>> is helping your
>
> But there are way more rank and file citizens than there are dishonest
> CEOs and those citizens do way, way, way more economic harm.
It is clearly the dishonest CEOs and their ilk who have caused this
crisis or whatever you want to call it.
>> fellow citizen fulfill their potential, and punishing those who rob.
>> In
>
> Not at a point of a gun. It is NOT the government's job to help
> people fulfill their potential. It is the government's job to keep
> us free. No more. Having a gun stuck in my ear to pay for social
> do-gooding is a crime no different than any other kind of theft.
Where is the point of a gun? It is the job of the government to afford
us the opportunity to fulfill pour potential. Social do-gooding is a
different thing. Bridges and roads to nowhere come to mind.
>> a well-functioning society providing for some is much better than
>> stomping them into the ground and fomenting terrorism of one kind or
>> another.
Thank you for making my point.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> wrote in news:pikiq5-keh2.ln1
@ozzie.tundraware.com:
> It is, huh? It's not clear to me that this is the case. It is clear
> to me that there is a whole ecosystem of perverse incentives,
> rewards, and protections all, at their core, sanctioned, or even
> run by ... the government.
That wass my oint: dishonest CEOs, and lack of government regulation.
> We could stop all this right now by refusing to have a single tax
> dollar put up to protect any of the failing companies.
That would be fine by me. However, other people would get screwed. Is
that right? Do you know what they might do then?
> The consequent lack of credit liquidity would have folks like you
> screaming about how sad it is that Johnny Paycheck can no longer
> afford to own a home.
I still like my paycheck, but I could do without, I think. Should I care
about those who do need a paycheck? Because some aspects of my job just
about invite me to quit, were it not for some other people whose job then
just might disappear.
> Then you'd want to protect poor Johnny with Federal money. No system
> which uses tax money to interdict in the private sector (other than in
> matters of fraud, force, or threat) can ever be just or proper.
I can't follow this reasoning, or lack thereof, so I'll quit here.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
"J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet@cox.net> wrote in
news:gbauhb0foc@news4.newsguy.com:
> Rick Samuel wrote:
>>> Yup... MUCH better to stick your head in the sand (or up your ass,
>>> as
>>> the case might be) than trying to become aware of others' points of
>>> view.
>>> The ARE points of view besides yours. Ignoring them doesn't
>>> disqualify those points of view as invalid.
>>
>>
>>
>> What?! An open mind?? If you have one, someone will surely come
>> along and shovel sh-- into it. <G>
>
> While one must keep an open mind, one should not keep a mind so open
> that one's brain falls out.
Go here:
http://www.timminchin.com/media/
and click on the song of the same name. But only if you have a sense of
humor.
Scott
"Scott Lurndal" <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote in message
news:2BxBk.1255$c45.1003@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
> Under two years. And GWB has vetoed _EVERYTHING_ they've
> tried to do. You can't blame them for this mess, I'm afraid.
>
> scott
What were these things that they tried to do and couldn't because of a veto?
And how could these "things" have avoided this crisis? Rod
"Scott Lurndal" <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote in message
news:2BxBk.1255$c45.1003@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com...
> Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> writes:
>> Speaking of out of touch,
>>you may wish to know that he majority in Congress - where
>>appropriations actually take place - is, and has been for some
>>time - Democrat.
>
> Under two years. And GWB has vetoed _EVERYTHING_ they've
> tried to do. You can't blame them for this mess, I'm afraid.
>
> scott
By my count, in 8 years, Bush has vetoed 12 bills. Four of those were
overridden. So that leaves 8 bills vetoed that were not overridden. Two
had minor changes made that were passed by Congress and signed into law.
Two concerned stem cell research. I'm reasonably sure those didn't cause
any of the financial mess. Now we have 4 left. Two more were the
Children's Health Insurance Program Reauthorization Act. I'm pretty sure
the lack of passage of that bill didn't cause a near-collapse of the
financial market. That leaves the National Defense Authorization Act of
2007 and the Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008. I'd love
you hear your analysis of how those vetoes caused "this mess".
todd
Han wrote:
> Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> wrote in news:501iq5-ds62.ln1
> @ozzie.tundraware.com:
>
>> The so-called 'crisis' is the inevitable payday due when
>> an entire nation decides to go into debt and never pay it back.
>
> I totally agree!
>
>> The "greediest" portions of our economy are not financial
>> or insurance institutions.
>
> Agree. It is the individuals in charge and the regulators who let them
> do these outrageous things.
>
>> The biggest greed you will ever see is the general public demanding
>> benefits they've never paid for nor earned and insisting it is their
>> "right". Our nation is in financial trouble because the rank and file
>> citizen is a moocher and sees no problem looting their neighbor's
>> wallet to get what they want.
>
> Is that in principle any different from letting the CEOs and lobbyists
> rob the common citizen? Neither is "good". What is good is helping your
But there are way more rank and file citizens than there are dishonest
CEOs and those citizens do way, way, way more economic harm.
> fellow citizen fulfill their potential, and punishing those who rob. In
Not at a point of a gun. It is NOT the government's job to help
people fulfill their potential. It is the government's job to keep
us free. No more. Having a gun stuck in my ear to pay for social
do-gooding is a crime no different than any other kind of theft.
> a well-functioning society providing for some is much better than
> stomping them into the ground and fomenting terrorism of one kind or
> another.
>
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk tundra@tundraware.com
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
>
> Yup... MUCH better to stick your head in the sand (or up your ass, as
> the case might be) than trying to become aware of others' points of
> view.
> The ARE points of view besides yours. Ignoring them doesn't disqualify
> those points of view as invalid.
What?! An open mind?? If you have one, someone will surely come along and
shovel sh-- into it. <G>
Rick Samuel wrote:
>> Yup... MUCH better to stick your head in the sand (or up your ass,
>> as
>> the case might be) than trying to become aware of others' points of
>> view.
>> The ARE points of view besides yours. Ignoring them doesn't
>> disqualify those points of view as invalid.
>
>
>
> What?! An open mind?? If you have one, someone will surely come
> along and shovel sh-- into it. <G>
While one must keep an open mind, one should not keep a mind so open
that one's brain falls out.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Robatoy wrote:
> Just unbelievable. And nobody's doing a thing about it....
>
> http://www.atlargely.com/2008/09/fascist-coup-ne.html
An article that begins, "Well my friends - and the conservatives just
now waking up after an 8 year mental vacation ..." has already
demonstrated so much bias that it would be a waste of time to read any
further.
Han wrote:
> Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> wrote in
> news:e7eiq5-1ad2.ln1@ozzie.tundraware.com:
>
>> Han wrote:
>>> Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> wrote in news:501iq5-ds62.ln1
>>> @ozzie.tundraware.com:
>>>
>>>> The so-called 'crisis' is the inevitable payday due when
>>>> an entire nation decides to go into debt and never pay it back.
>>> I totally agree!
>>>
>>>> The "greediest" portions of our economy are not financial
>>>> or insurance institutions.
>>> Agree. It is the individuals in charge and the regulators who let
>>> them do these outrageous things.
>>>
>>>> The biggest greed you will ever see is the general public demanding
>>>> benefits they've never paid for nor earned and insisting it is their
>>>> "right". Our nation is in financial trouble because the rank and
>>>> file citizen is a moocher and sees no problem looting their
>>>> neighbor's wallet to get what they want.
>>> Is that in principle any different from letting the CEOs and
>>> lobbyists rob the common citizen? Neither is "good". What is good
>>> is helping your
>> But there are way more rank and file citizens than there are dishonest
>> CEOs and those citizens do way, way, way more economic harm.
>
> It is clearly the dishonest CEOs and their ilk who have caused this
> crisis or whatever you want to call it.
It is, huh? It's not clear to me that this is the case. It is clear
to me that there is a whole ecosystem of perverse incentives,
rewards, and protections all, at their core, sanctioned, or even
run by ... the government. We could stop all this right now by
refusing to have a single tax dollar put up to protect any of the
failing companies. The consequent lack of credit liquidity would have
folks like you screaming about how sad it is that Johnny Paycheck
can no longer afford to own a home. Then you'd want to protect
poor Johnny with Federal money. No system which uses tax money
to interdict in the private sector (other than in matters of fraud,
force, or threat) can ever be just or proper.
>>> fellow citizen fulfill their potential, and punishing those who rob.
>>> In
>> Not at a point of a gun. It is NOT the government's job to help
>> people fulfill their potential. It is the government's job to keep
>> us free. No more. Having a gun stuck in my ear to pay for social
>> do-gooding is a crime no different than any other kind of theft.
>
> Where is the point of a gun? It is the job of the government to afford
Try not paying your taxes and find out how big the government's gun
is.
> us the opportunity to fulfill pour potential. Social do-gooding is a
Baloney. This might be your desire, but it is NOT an enumerated
purpose or power of the US government.
> different thing. Bridges and roads to nowhere come to mind.
I was think more along the lines of retirement, education, welfare,
farm subsidies, and a host of similar things for which the Federal
government has no enumerated power to act, but does so anyway -
unlawfully, BTW, but with the happy consent of the thieving citizenry.
>
>>> a well-functioning society providing for some is much better than
>>> stomping them into the ground and fomenting terrorism of one kind or
>>> another.
Those are not remotely the only options. The best society ever created
by mankind came from private wealth creation, rule of law, equality
before the law, and minimal government intervention in people's lives.
This gave us unprecedented science, medicine, lifespan, quality of
life, and free time. But that's not good enough for folks who see
the world the way you do. Until *everyone* has the exact same thing,
you're not happy. Well, it's not possible to give everyone the
aforementioned benefits - they have to earn it for themselves. When
they don't, your fairy tale land of "equal" ends up becoming
"equally lousy for everyone."
>
> Thank you for making my point.
>
>
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk tundra@tundraware.com
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
Robatoy wrote:
> Just unbelievable. And nobody's doing a thing about it....
>
> http://www.atlargely.com/2008/09/fascist-coup-ne.html
But, of course, if they were bailing out, say, crackheads,
the terminally lazy, the criminal class, and the generally
irresponsible, this would be known as ... a "good social
policy". Welfare is morally wrong, regardless of the
recipients.
This "crisis" has a root cause that has nothing to do with the
insurance companies, the banks, the mortgage companies, the rich,
the oil companies, or any of the usual hated classes. This "crisis"
was induced by profligate government spending and the consequent
fiscal policies inflicted thereafter to try and "fix" the problem.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk tundra@tundraware.com
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> writes:
>> Speaking of out of touch,
>> you may wish to know that he majority in Congress - where
>> appropriations actually take place - is, and has been for some
>> time - Democrat.
>
> Under two years. And GWB has vetoed _EVERYTHING_ they've
> tried to do. You can't blame them for this mess, I'm afraid.
>
> scott
>
I don't blame them alone. I blame FDR and his merry band of
Marxists who screwed up a fabulous country with their collectivist
trash. The rest that followed was merely a matter of technique
with both parties contributing mightily to the aforementioned
collectivism.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk tundra@tundraware.com
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/