My old HD used to carry a drywall sort of screw that had the square
drive. No longer.
Compared to phillips, the square drive just seems superior to me. Am
I dreaming?
I don't need high quality screws for most of what I do -- and if I do,
I'm fine with getting them.
HD / Lowes now sells a 5# box of phillips drywall screws for around
18. I'm looking for something equivalent but with square drive.
Or -- has square drive just become obsolete? Do I need to get out
more?
On 1/19/2012 11:17 PM, PV wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:42:34 -0500, willshak<[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> John Grossbohlin wrote the following:
>>>>
>>>> "SonomaProducts.com"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> On Jan 17, 9:25 am, woodchuck<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> My old HD used to carry a drywall sort of screw that had the
>>>>>> square drive. No longer.
>>>>
>>>>> HD and Lowes carry deck screws with star heads. HD has them at one
>>>>> extreme end of the screw area and Lowes usually has them in their
>>>>> own space somewhere near the nails. Each box comes with the start
>>>>> driver (a tiny one) and for some reason they have a few different
>>>>> sizes which can be a hassle. I have an Itsy setup from Rockler
>>>>> that has all the drivers I could want so I am usually good.
>>>>
>>>> Do you mean Torx head screws?
>>>
>>>
>>> They're not Torx. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx
>>> Square bits are square http://www.wihatools.com/700seri/718serie.htm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> They are what I use for deck screws...
>>>> far superior to Phillips in that they don't strip out easily even
>>>> if you don't get the bit fully seated.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>>
>> The are, officially, called ROBERTSON socket drive screws, or
>> SCRULOX. It was invented in Canada - so, Americans being as xenophobic
>> as they have been over the decades, it never really took hold in the
>> USA.
>
> Mr Robertson refused to license his invention, he feared someone stealing
> the design. The screws and screwdrivers were only manufactured and sold in
> Canada for this reason. This is why they never took hold in the States.
That is probably close but in reality I suspect that Mr. Robertson could
not prevent any one from stealing the design, a license would not
increase the chance or prevent some one from stealing a design.
As I understood it he introduced the design to Ford when Ford was
looking for a better screw. Ford wanted to make a one time payment for
the rights to make the screws himself, Robertson refused, I suspect he
wanted to make and get paid for every screw. As it turned out Ford
ended up with the Philips style screw which in hind sight was a better
screw for mass production assembly.
>
> I shipped a wood crate to head office in Texas, the lid was secured with
> Robertson screws. Told them the screwdriver was inside
>
I suspect we would use out stolen design screw driver to remove the
Robertson screws.
On Jan 18, 9:20=A0am, "John Grossbohlin"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> "phorbin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > [email protected] says...
>
> >> Do you mean Torx head screws? =A0They are what I use for deck screws..=
. far
> >> superior to Phillips in that they don't strip out easily even if you
> >> don't
> >> get the bit fully seated.
>
> > He probably means "Robertson."
>
> No... the post I responded to talked about "star head" screws... Everyone=
is
> taking this out of context as they didn't follow the thread!
>
> John
Why bother reading what was actually posted when you shoot off your
mouth with opinion and no facts. Hey, works for most of my posts.
Coloured handles only. Robertson never had a #2 bit.
(notice that "u" in "colored"? We added it to resolve the "n" word
problem"
I been developing two sets lately. A set for the workshop and a set for
lazy me when I don't feel like the 3m trek across the snow.
-----------
"John Grossbohlin" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
If you're differentiating between un-numbered square drive bits and
numbered
bits I'm pretty sure I've still got both... I source bits from various
places and the ones I ordered with my "meat powered driver" were
numbered
but I may have worn them out!
John
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:04:54 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>Canadians have known that for over 50 years - "robertson" screws are
>VERY common up here. Used to be they were all Canadian made quality
>stuff, now much of it is the same cheap Chinese CRAP you guys get
>south of the lakes.
Naturally we've know that because Robertson was Canadian. One of the
advantages of Robertson screws is that the square drive gives extra
holding power which permits more torque on the screws. And if you're
adding more torque, then you don't want a cheap version of the screw
that might snap off. ~ Nothing more irritating. That is the biggest
reason to buy better quality when it comes to square drive screws.
On 1/19/2012 9:04 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>>
>> Let me explain it this way, imagine putting a drop of super glue in the
>> head of the screw and letting it cure with the bit inserted. It is that
>> tight of a fit. Pulling on the drill and bit does not separate
>> anything. Working the drill and bit back and forth 2~3 seconds finally
>> works the bit free of the screw. AND that is easier when driving
>> screws. Removing screws is a bigger problem.
>
> Buy harder screws which don't tend to stick to the bit?
Well I think I am buying pretty hard screws, they seem to never misform
and I almost exclusively use McFeeleys and Kreg screws. I don't want
screws crapping out on me.
On another note and response I mentioned that it may be the heat
generated that causes the screw to tighten up on the driver.
On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:14:21 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 1/18/2012 9:51 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:18:05 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/18/2012 7:09 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
>>>>> it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
>>>>> screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now having said that I have been using square drive screws for probably
>>>>> 25+ years exclusively except when they are not available. I have no
>>>>> intention of switching.
>>>>
>>>> Do you use ball retainer types? They can usually be pulled without
>>>> too much wiggling. Wire clip retainer types or magnetics will lost
>>>> the bit when you do that. I switched over to ball retainer and have
>>>> been much happier with square drive deck screws, those I use the most.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The problem is not removing the bit from the drill, it is removing the
>>> bit from the screw.
>>
>> Au contraire, mon ami. If your bit sticks in the screw but isn't well
>> retained, the drill comes away without it. The ball retainer gives it
>> more oomph to pull out when it sticks because you have to drill to
>> hang onto.
>
>
>
>Let me explain it this way, imagine putting a drop of super glue in the
>head of the screw and letting it cure with the bit inserted. It is that
>tight of a fit. Pulling on the drill and bit does not separate
>anything. Working the drill and bit back and forth 2~3 seconds finally
>works the bit free of the screw. AND that is easier when driving
>screws. Removing screws is a bigger problem.
Buy harder screws which don't tend to stick to the bit?
--
The human brain is unique in that it is the only container of which
it can be said that the more you put into it, the more it will hold.
-- Glenn Doman
On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:16:26 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 1/19/2012 6:39 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:49:54 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:56:00 -0800, Larry Jaques
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:36:22 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:07:19 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Where would one get a good Robertson bit? I get mine from McFeeleys and
>>>>>> Kreg.
>>>>>
>>>>> My current set are Rack-a-Tiers. Bought them at my local electrical
>>>>> supply house - Guillevin International.. The beggars were $8 each, or
>>>>> something like that - but they WORK.
>>>>
>>>> I pay about $0.80 apiece for mine. I go through 2 or 3 per deck using
>>>> the Makita impact driver. On the Ryobi drill driver, they last for a
>>>> year.
>>> At $0.80 each you get what you pay for - mabee.
>>
>> At $0.80 each, I can find them here, same day, or I can keep a stock
>> of them as I usually do. Isn't a year long enough life for you? ;)
>> For decking, driving 3-1/2" or 4" screws into lumber all day is a real
>> killer of bits. They wear out/round over @ 1,350 lb/in and 2,800bpm.
>>
>> As with all consumables, I charge the $2.40 to the client. Yeah, I get
>> what I pay for. The "good" bits from LVT and other places don't hold
>> up much better, and they will snap at the tip, leaving the aluminum
>> holder intact. The occasional bad bits from other sources @ $2-3
>> apiece don't hold up nearly as well.
>>
>> I'm very happy with the $0.80 bits. I get ten to your one with decent
>> life. What's -not- to like? They're a very good value.
>
>
>Life expectancy is not the issue, being able to simply remove the bit
>from the screw is.
Correct. A properly shaped bit that STAYS that way.
On 1/19/2012 9:02 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> "Nothing" separates. I often have to screw the removed screw into a
>> scrap of wood to be able to have enough grip to separate it from the
>> driver bit. I have no problems with the driver bit coming off of the
>> drill.
>
> I guess we Left Coasters just think a little bit differently than you
> Texicans, Leon.
>
> So, do you need to buy better bits which don't stick as badly, or do
> you need to buy cheaper bits which don't stick as badly? Pick one. ;)
Yes! That is a definite maybe. HUH? ;~)
Many years ago I used to show friends how well the SD screws stuck to
the driver bit totally unlike a Philips head screw. Almost every time I
am on my hands and knees inside a kitchen cabinet repairing or
installing brackets for drawer slides the screw sticks in the driver,
and I think to myself, what a wonderful world.. ER uh I wish these
screws did not to this. LOL
On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:30:45 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 1/18/2012 9:51 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:18:05 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/18/2012 7:09 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
>>>>> it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
>>>>> screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now having said that I have been using square drive screws for probably
>>>>> 25+ years exclusively except when they are not available. I have no
>>>>> intention of switching.
>>>>
>>>> Do you use ball retainer types? They can usually be pulled without
>>>> too much wiggling. Wire clip retainer types or magnetics will lost
>>>> the bit when you do that. I switched over to ball retainer and have
>>>> been much happier with square drive deck screws, those I use the most.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The problem is not removing the bit from the drill, it is removing the
>>> bit from the screw.
>>
>> Au contraire, mon ami. If your bit sticks in the screw but isn't well
>> retained, the drill comes away without it. The ball retainer gives it
>> more oomph to pull out when it sticks because you have to drill to
>> hang onto.
>
>
>Still not getting it. I can release the drill/driver bit and it will
>hang on to the screw. Picture the drill just hanging there connected to
>the screw.
>
>"Nothing" separates. I often have to screw the removed screw into a
>scrap of wood to be able to have enough grip to separate it from the
>driver bit. I have no problems with the driver bit coming off of the
>drill.
I guess we Left Coasters just think a little bit differently than you
Texicans, Leon.
So, do you need to buy better bits which don't stick as badly, or do
you need to buy cheaper bits which don't stick as badly? Pick one. ;)
--
The human brain is unique in that it is the only container of which
it can be said that the more you put into it, the more it will hold.
-- Glenn Doman
Leon wrote:
> On 1/19/2012 11:17 PM, PV wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:42:34 -0500, willshak<[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John Grossbohlin wrote the following:
>>>>>
>>>>> "SonomaProducts.com"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> On Jan 17, 9:25 am, woodchuck<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>> My old HD used to carry a drywall sort of screw that had the
>>>>>>> square drive. No longer.
>>>>>
>>>>>> HD and Lowes carry deck screws with star heads. HD has them at
>>>>>> one extreme end of the screw area and Lowes usually has them in
>>>>>> their own space somewhere near the nails. Each box comes with
>>>>>> the start driver (a tiny one) and for some reason they have a
>>>>>> few different sizes which can be a hassle. I have an Itsy setup
>>>>>> from Rockler that has all the drivers I could want so I am
>>>>>> usually good.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you mean Torx head screws?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They're not Torx. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx
>>>> Square bits are square
>>>> http://www.wihatools.com/700seri/718serie.htm They are what I use for
>>>> deck screws...
>>>>> far superior to Phillips in that they don't strip out easily even
>>>>> if you don't get the bit fully seated.
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> The are, officially, called ROBERTSON socket drive screws, or
>>> SCRULOX. It was invented in Canada - so, Americans being as
>>> xenophobic as they have been over the decades, it never really took
>>> hold in the USA.
>>
>> Mr Robertson refused to license his invention, he feared someone
>> stealing the design. The screws and screwdrivers were only
>> manufactured and sold in Canada for this reason. This is why they
>> never took hold in the States.
>
> That is probably close but in reality I suspect that Mr. Robertson
> could not prevent any one from stealing the design, a license would
> not increase the chance or prevent some one from stealing a design.
>
> As I understood it he introduced the design to Ford when Ford was
> looking for a better screw. Ford wanted to make a one time payment
> for the rights to make the screws himself, Robertson refused, I
> suspect he wanted to make and get paid for every screw. As it turned
> out Ford ended up with the Philips style screw which in hind sight
> was a better screw for mass production assembly.
>
>>
>> I shipped a wood crate to head office in Texas, the lid was secured
>> with Robertson screws. Told them the screwdriver was inside
>>
>
> I suspect we would use out stolen design screw driver to remove the
> Robertson screws.
Maybe now :-)
Back then they were clueless....and screw(driver) less
--
PV
"This sig left intentionally blank"
On Jan 17, 12:02=A0pm, Limp Arbor <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jan 17, 12:25=A0pm, woodchuck <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > My old HD used to carry a drywall sort of screw that had the square
> > drive. =A0 No longer.
>
> > Compared to phillips, the square drive just seems superior to me. =A0Am
> > I dreaming?
>
> > I don't need high quality screws for most of what I do -- and if I do,
> > I'm fine with getting them.
>
> > HD / Lowes now sells a 5# box of phillips drywall screws for around
> > 18. =A0I'm looking for something equivalent but with square drive.
>
> > Or -- has square drive just become obsolete? =A0 Do I need to get out
> > more?
>
> http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/0612-FSL/6-x-1-14quot-Unplated-Steel-...
>
> 1,000 for $21.85
Yeah.. shipping costs are the killer.
On Jan 17, 4:36=A0am, Pat Barber <[email protected]> wrote:
> Lowes & HD in my area have carried at least a
> small group of "combo" head screws for the last
> several years.
>
> These boys are going to have almost "any" screw
> you want and they will be right there with Lowes
> or HD in price.
>
> The current offer is $1.00 shipping to the lower 48 states on any order:h=
ttp://www.mcfeelys.com/
>
> On 1/17/2012 10:48 AM, woodchuck wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >>> Compared to phillips, the square drive just seems superior to me. =A0=
Am
> >>> I dreaming?
>
> >>> I don't need high quality screws for most of what I do -- and if I do=
,
> >>> I'm fine with getting them.
>
> >>> HD / Lowes now sells a 5# box of phillips drywall screws for around
> >>> 18. =A0I'm looking for something equivalent but with square drive.
>
> >>> Or -- has square drive just become obsolete? =A0 Do I need to get out
> >>> more?
Re: Mcfeely's --- what are there general purpose woodworking screws?
On 1/17/2012 2:22 PM, kansascats wrote:
> I'm looking for a low-cost screw -- not a deck screw. Just a basic
> drywall type screw with square drive.
>
> The deck screws are much too expensive for what I need -- just a
> general purpose ww screw.
>
> I will check the McFeely's $1 shipping.
A drywall screw is NOT a general purpose WW screw. They are are much
too light weight and brittle. Yes dry wall are marginally better than
the cheesy screws that come in those 70 cent packages but many times
less desirable than actual square drive wood screws.
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:25:53 -0800 (PST), woodchuck <[email protected]>
wrote:
>My old HD used to carry a drywall sort of screw that had the square
>drive. No longer.
>
>Compared to phillips, the square drive just seems superior to me. Am
>I dreaming?
>
>I don't need high quality screws for most of what I do -- and if I do,
>I'm fine with getting them.
>
>HD / Lowes now sells a 5# box of phillips drywall screws for around
>18. I'm looking for something equivalent but with square drive.
>
>Or -- has square drive just become obsolete? Do I need to get out
>more?
They probably switched over to the combo screws.
http://goo.gl/lOiJf lots to choose from.
http://goo.gl/pYoCt 1-5/8" only
--
The human brain is unique in that it is the only container of which
it can be said that the more you put into it, the more it will hold.
-- Glenn Doman
On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:17:39 -0700, "PV" <edrnouser@ spam telus.net>
wrote:
>[email protected] wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:42:34 -0500, willshak <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> John Grossbohlin wrote the following:
>>>>
>>>> "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> On Jan 17, 9:25 am, woodchuck <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> My old HD used to carry a drywall sort of screw that had the
>>>>>> square drive. No longer.
>>>>
>>>>> HD and Lowes carry deck screws with star heads. HD has them at one
>>>>> extreme end of the screw area and Lowes usually has them in their
>>>>> own space somewhere near the nails. Each box comes with the start
>>>>> driver (a tiny one) and for some reason they have a few different
>>>>> sizes which can be a hassle. I have an Itsy setup from Rockler
>>>>> that has all the drivers I could want so I am usually good.
>>>>
>>>> Do you mean Torx head screws?
>>>
>>>
>>> They're not Torx. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx
>>> Square bits are square http://www.wihatools.com/700seri/718serie.htm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> They are what I use for deck screws...
>>>> far superior to Phillips in that they don't strip out easily even
>>>> if you don't get the bit fully seated.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>>
>> The are, officially, called ROBERTSON socket drive screws, or
>> SCRULOX. It was invented in Canada - so, Americans being as xenophobic
>> as they have been over the decades, it never really took hold in the
>> USA.
>
>Mr Robertson refused to license his invention, he feared someone stealing
>the design. The screws and screwdrivers were only manufactured and sold in
>Canada for this reason. This is why they never took hold in the States.
>
>I shipped a wood crate to head office in Texas, the lid was secured with
>Robertson screws. Told them the screwdriver was inside
The fact they were only MADE in Canada is only an excuse for them to
not be used in the USA. There are a LOT of things only made in the USA
that are /were extensively used in Canada..
Yeah but....
They always try to push off square drive screws and bits a Robertson.
If it has a number size it ain't "Robertson".
Robertson has a Morse taper on the socket and it sticks to the driver
and falls into the socket easily. Driver size match isn't critical for
a tight fit.
----------
wrote in message news:[email protected]...
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 02:36:59 -0800, Pat Barber <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Lowes & HD in my area have carried at least a
>small group of "combo" head screws for the last
>several years.
>
>These boys are going to have almost "any" screw
>you want and they will be right there with Lowes
>or HD in price.
>
>
>The current offer is $1.00 shipping to the lower 48 states on any
>order:
>http://www.mcfeelys.com/
>
>
>
>On 1/17/2012 10:48 AM, woodchuck wrote:
>
>>>
>>>> Compared to phillips, the square drive just seems superior to me.
>>>> Am
>>>> I dreaming?
Canadians have known that for over 50 years - "robertson" screws are
VERY common up here. Used to be they werer all Canadian made quality
stuff, now much of it is the same cheap Chinese CRAP you guys get
south of the lakes.
>>>
>>>> I don't need high quality screws for most of what I do -- and if I
>>>> do,
>>>> I'm fine with getting them.
>>>
>>>> HD / Lowes now sells a 5# box of phillips drywall screws for
>>>> around
>>>> 18. I'm looking for something equivalent but with square drive.
Head north.
>>>
>>>> Or -- has square drive just become obsolete? Do I need to get
>>>> out
>>>> more?
"phorbin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>
>
>> Do you mean Torx head screws? They are what I use for deck screws... far
>> superior to Phillips in that they don't strip out easily even if you
>> don't
>> get the bit fully seated.
>
> He probably means "Robertson."
No... the post I responded to talked about "star head" screws... Everyone is
taking this out of context as they didn't follow the thread!
John
On 1/17/2012 1:27 PM, woodchuck wrote:
> On Jan 17, 12:02 pm, Limp Arbor<[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Jan 17, 12:25 pm, woodchuck<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> My old HD used to carry a drywall sort of screw that had the square
>>> drive. No longer.
>>
>>> Compared to phillips, the square drive just seems superior to me. Am
>>> I dreaming?
>>
>>> I don't need high quality screws for most of what I do -- and if I do,
>>> I'm fine with getting them.
>>
>>> HD / Lowes now sells a 5# box of phillips drywall screws for around
>>> 18. I'm looking for something equivalent but with square drive.
>>
>>> Or -- has square drive just become obsolete? Do I need to get out
>>> more?
>>
>> http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/0612-FSL/6-x-1-14quot-Unplated-Steel-...
>>
>> 1,000 for $21.85
>
> Yeah.. shipping costs are the killer.
Yeah,,, Right now it is one dollar. And, they will probably be there in
a day if you order early enough.
"willshak" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> John Grossbohlin wrote the following:
>>
>> "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On Jan 17, 9:25 am, woodchuck <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> My old HD used to carry a drywall sort of screw that had the square
>>>> drive. No longer.
>>
>>> HD and Lowes carry deck screws with star heads. HD has them at one
>>> extreme end of the screw area and Lowes usually has them in their own
>>> space somewhere near the nails. Each box comes with the start driver
>>> (a tiny one) and for some reason they have a few different sizes which
>>> can be a hassle. I have an Itsy setup from Rockler that has all the
>>> drivers I could want so I am usually good.
>>
>> Do you mean Torx head screws?
>
>
> They're not Torx. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx
> Square bits are square http://www.wihatools.com/700seri/718serie.htm
>
The discussion moved on to "star heads." Torx is exactly what they are.
I've got bits to drive Phillips, Torx, square, straight, Allan, straight
slotted, and a couple different sizes of sheet metal screws for my drivers
and I use them all!
John
On 1/18/2012 5:52 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 06:27:31 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 1/17/2012 9:06 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:46:16 -0500, Dave<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:04:54 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Canadians have known that for over 50 years - "robertson" screws are
>>>>> VERY common up here. Used to be they were all Canadian made quality
>>>>> stuff, now much of it is the same cheap Chinese CRAP you guys get
>>>>> south of the lakes.
>>>>
>>>> Naturally we've know that because Robertson was Canadian. One of the
>>>> advantages of Robertson screws is that the square drive gives extra
>>>> holding power which permits more torque on the screws. And if you're
>>>> adding more torque, then you don't want a cheap version of the screw
>>>> that might snap off. ~ Nothing more irritating. That is the biggest
>>>> reason to buy better quality when it comes to square drive screws.
>>> The BEAUTY of a robertson screw is you can stick the screw on the
>>> driver - point it vertually ANYWHERE and not worry about loosing the
>>> screw when you try to start it - even into sheet metal or wood with no
>>> pilot hole drilled. Makes it's own awl.
>>
>> The draw back to the Robertson screw is that you can stick the screw on
>> the driver and drive the screw into the wood and play hell pulling the
>> drill and bit off of the screw. Yes this happens more often than I wish
>> and normally when I am reaching into the back of a cabinet mounting
>> drawer slides and or supports.
> Then you don't have a good robertson bit. Never had a problem getting
> the bit out of the head - or keeping it in when i wanted it in.
Where would one get a good Robertson bit? I get mine from McFeeleys and
Kreg.
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:42:34 -0500, willshak <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >John Grossbohlin wrote the following:
> >>
> >> "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> news:[email protected]...
> >>> On Jan 17, 9:25 am, woodchuck <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>> My old HD used to carry a drywall sort of screw that had the square
> >>>> drive. No longer.
> >>
> >>> HD and Lowes carry deck screws with star heads. HD has them at one
> >>> extreme end of the screw area and Lowes usually has them in their own
> >>> space somewhere near the nails. Each box comes with the start driver
> >>> (a tiny one) and for some reason they have a few different sizes which
> >>> can be a hassle. I have an Itsy setup from Rockler that has all the
> >>> drivers I could want so I am usually good.
> >>
> >> Do you mean Torx head screws?
> >
> >
> >They're not Torx. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx
> >Square bits are square http://www.wihatools.com/700seri/718serie.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >They are what I use for deck screws...
> >> far superior to Phillips in that they don't strip out easily even if you
> >> don't get the bit fully seated.
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >>
> The are, officially, called ROBERTSON socket drive screws, or
> SCRULOX. It was invented in Canada - so, Americans being as xenophobic
> as they have been over the decades, it never really took hold in the
> USA.
Scrulox is an 8 point star. Torx is a six point star. The ones that
Lowes and Home Depot sell are Torx.
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Do you mean Torx head screws? They are what I use for deck screws... far
> superior to Phillips in that they don't strip out easily even if you don't
> get the bit fully seated.
He probably means "Robertson."
On 1/18/2012 10:02 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:36:25 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] (Edward A.
> Falk) wrote:
>
>> In article<[email protected]>,
>> woodchuck<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Or -- has square drive just become obsolete? Do I need to get out
>>> more?
>>
>> Au contraire; square drive is the future, IMHO.
>>
>> Fun trivia fact: the Phillips head is *designed* to cam out when you
>> tighten them. It's to keep you from over-torquing them.
>
> I'd like someone to come up with a CREDIBLE cite on that.
> It appears to fall into the "urban legend" realm.
>
http://www.marfas.com/phillips.shtml
On 1/20/2012 7:14 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 1/18/2012 10:02 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:36:25 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] (Edward A.
>> Falk) wrote:
>>
>>> In
>>> article<[email protected]>,
>>>
>>> woodchuck<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Or -- has square drive just become obsolete? Do I need to get out
>>>> more?
>>>
>>> Au contraire; square drive is the future, IMHO.
>>>
>>> Fun trivia fact: the Phillips head is *designed* to cam out when you
>>> tighten them. It's to keep you from over-torquing them.
>>
>> I'd like someone to come up with a CREDIBLE cite on that.
>> It appears to fall into the "urban legend" realm.
>>
>
>
> http://www.marfas.com/phillips.shtml
The designed to cam out is also the reason that Philips head dry wall
screws are manufactured this way.
I have a bit, I use right now, on a Milwaukee impact screwdriver that sticks
inside screws badly. It has seen a lot of wear and tear and when it sticks
there is no "wiggling it back and forth". The damn screws won't come off
with a hammer! I have to screw the screw back into the hole of a piece of
wood and use the leverage of the drill to "snap" them apart.
This is from using the non-Robertson (SquareDrive) screws on the Robertson
bit. Impact drivers make this situation worse, faster. The square edged
sockets of the screws cut into the taper of the Robertson bit and eventually
put notches in the corners of the bit so the screw can wedge itself onto the
bit by hooking onto the edges of the notches..
Yeah, even the good Robertson bits need to be replaced every few thousand
screws. Funny how the old cheap ones are still working but the new ones, no
matter what you pay work for a few weeks.
Don't buy the Robertson coloured bits at HD, in Canada. I have tried a few
that came out in the last year, or so, and they are good for a dozen screws
and then garbage. Yes, they appeared to have hardened insert tips in them,
too and they were about $4 each.
------------
"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.
Now having said that I have been using square drive screws for probably
25+ years exclusively except when they are not available. I have no
intention of switching.
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>On Jan 17, 9:25 am, woodchuck <[email protected]> wrote:
>> My old HD used to carry a drywall sort of screw that had the square
>> drive. No longer.
>HD and Lowes carry deck screws with star heads. HD has them at one
>extreme end of the screw area and Lowes usually has them in their own
>space somewhere near the nails. Each box comes with the start driver
>(a tiny one) and for some reason they have a few different sizes which
>can be a hassle. I have an Itsy setup from Rockler that has all the
>drivers I could want so I am usually good.
Do you mean Torx head screws? They are what I use for deck screws... far
superior to Phillips in that they don't strip out easily even if you don't
get the bit fully seated.
John
That is usually the American and oriental sources cloned squarehead
screws on a Robertson screwdriver infiltrated into the Canadian market
as the same style to unknowing customers. The square socket has a sharp
ridge around the socket at the entrance end and cuts into the taper of
the driver. When styles match the locking together doesn't happen.
----------------
"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
The draw back to the Robertson screw is that you can stick the screw on
the driver and drive the screw into the wood and play hell pulling the
drill and bit off of the screw. Yes this happens more often than I
wish
and normally when I am reaching into the back of a cabinet mounting
drawer slides and or supports.
[email protected] wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:42:34 -0500, willshak <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> John Grossbohlin wrote the following:
>>>
>>> "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On Jan 17, 9:25 am, woodchuck <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> My old HD used to carry a drywall sort of screw that had the
>>>>> square drive. No longer.
>>>
>>>> HD and Lowes carry deck screws with star heads. HD has them at one
>>>> extreme end of the screw area and Lowes usually has them in their
>>>> own space somewhere near the nails. Each box comes with the start
>>>> driver (a tiny one) and for some reason they have a few different
>>>> sizes which can be a hassle. I have an Itsy setup from Rockler
>>>> that has all the drivers I could want so I am usually good.
>>>
>>> Do you mean Torx head screws?
>>
>>
>> They're not Torx. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx
>> Square bits are square http://www.wihatools.com/700seri/718serie.htm
>>
>>
>>
>> They are what I use for deck screws...
>>> far superior to Phillips in that they don't strip out easily even
>>> if you don't get the bit fully seated.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
> The are, officially, called ROBERTSON socket drive screws, or
> SCRULOX. It was invented in Canada - so, Americans being as xenophobic
> as they have been over the decades, it never really took hold in the
> USA.
Mr Robertson refused to license his invention, he feared someone stealing
the design. The screws and screwdrivers were only manufactured and sold in
Canada for this reason. This is why they never took hold in the States.
I shipped a wood crate to head office in Texas, the lid was secured with
Robertson screws. Told them the screwdriver was inside
--
PV
"This sig left intentionally blank"
On Sat, 21 Jan 2012 19:25:20 -0500, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sat, 21 Jan 2012 17:13:38 -0600, DanG <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On 1/17/2012 11:25 AM, woodchuck wrote:
>>> My old HD used to carry a drywall sort of screw that had the square
>>> drive. No longer.
>>>
>>> Compared to phillips, the square drive just seems superior to me. Am
>>> I dreaming?
>>>
>>> I don't need high quality screws for most of what I do -- and if I do,
>>> I'm fine with getting them.
>>>
>>> HD / Lowes now sells a 5# box of phillips drywall screws for around
>>> 18. I'm looking for something equivalent but with square drive.
>>>
>>> Or -- has square drive just become obsolete? Do I need to get out
>>> more?
>>
>>
>>Look in your phone book and see if you have a Fastenal store in your
>>area. Kinda like having a local McFeeleys. Here is a reference:
>>http://www.fastenal.com/web/home.ex
>
>Does Fastenal sell to the public? Do they carry any inventory? The local
>"stores" aren't all that big.
>
>>Don't limit yourself to square drive, how about Torx? Stainless?
>>Silicone bronze?
Both in my immediate area sell to anyone with money and carry a god
stock of the commoner stuff - and can order the esoteric stuff for
next day. Also lucky enough to have Spae-Naur/Kemsies virtually in my
back yard - with HUGE inventory of just about any fastener you could
ask for.
On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:14:48 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 1/18/2012 10:02 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:36:25 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] (Edward A.
>> Falk) wrote:
>>
>>> In article<[email protected]>,
>>> woodchuck<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Or -- has square drive just become obsolete? Do I need to get out
>>>> more?
>>>
>>> Au contraire; square drive is the future, IMHO.
>>>
>>> Fun trivia fact: the Phillips head is *designed* to cam out when you
>>> tighten them. It's to keep you from over-torquing them.
>>
>> I'd like someone to come up with a CREDIBLE cite on that.
>> It appears to fall into the "urban legend" realm.
>
>http://www.marfas.com/phillips.shtml
I'm with clare. I think the torque camout is a result of marketing
spin rather than design. When you spin it in and hit "tight", torque
causes a cross axial movement of the screwdriver, hence the "design
feature" camout. Tool user failure, not the design, is the key.
I dare someone to set up a real torque test of phillips screws and try
to prove design on this.
--
I have the consolation of having added nothing to my private fortune during
my public service, and of retiring with hands clean as they are empty.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Count Diodati, 1807
On Jan 17, 12:25=A0pm, woodchuck <[email protected]> wrote:
> My old HD used to carry a drywall sort of screw that had the square
> drive. =A0 No longer.
>
> Compared to phillips, the square drive just seems superior to me. =A0Am
> I dreaming?
>
> I don't need high quality screws for most of what I do -- and if I do,
> I'm fine with getting them.
>
> HD / Lowes now sells a 5# box of phillips drywall screws for around
> 18. =A0I'm looking for something equivalent but with square drive.
>
> Or -- has square drive just become obsolete? =A0 Do I need to get out
> more?
http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/0612-FSL/6-x-1-14quot-Unplated-Steel-Dry-Lu=
be-Flat-Head-Wood-Screws
1,000 for $21.85
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 02:36:59 -0800, Pat Barber <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Lowes & HD in my area have carried at least a
>small group of "combo" head screws for the last
>several years.
>
>These boys are going to have almost "any" screw
>you want and they will be right there with Lowes
>or HD in price.
>
>
>The current offer is $1.00 shipping to the lower 48 states on any order:
>http://www.mcfeelys.com/
>
>
>
>On 1/17/2012 10:48 AM, woodchuck wrote:
>
>>>
>>>> Compared to phillips, the square drive just seems superior to me. Am
>>>> I dreaming?
Canadians have known that for over 50 years - "robertson" screws are
VERY common up here. Used to be they werer all Canadian made quality
stuff, now much of it is the same cheap Chinese CRAP you guys get
south of the lakes.
>>>
>>>> I don't need high quality screws for most of what I do -- and if I do,
>>>> I'm fine with getting them.
>>>
>>>> HD / Lowes now sells a 5# box of phillips drywall screws for around
>>>> 18. I'm looking for something equivalent but with square drive.
Head north.
>>>
>>>> Or -- has square drive just become obsolete? Do I need to get out
>>>> more?
On 1/19/2012 9:08 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:35:37 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 1/18/2012 8:24 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
>>> Dave<[email protected]> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:40:11 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>
>>>>> Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
>>>>> it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
>>>>> screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.
>>>>
>>>> The reason I asked if you were using an impact drill/driver is that
>>>> I've heard of some brands of Robertson screws misshapen slightly when
>>>> the impact driver is working. It causes the screw to grab tighter to
>>>> the bit.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Sometimes if the bit gets stuck in the screw head, all you have to do is
>>> reverse the driver slightly. Usually releases the bit quite effectively.
>>>
>>> Puckdropper
>>
>> Unless you are removing the screw. ;~) This is really a PIA when
>> removing screws and cannot easily remove them from the bit.
>
> Tap the screw sideways on a piece of scrap or the ground. It'll come
> off. Or stick with phillips and/or torx.
Believe it or not I have tried that and that does not always work.
Typically I have to drive the screw into a scrap piece of wood and then
pull on the drill while working it back and forth. It is not an always
thing but it seems to happen when I am inside a cabinet.
>
> I would never suggest that anyone use a flat blade type screwdriver.
> AAMOF, I believe they've outlawed them in England now.<heh>
I never use a flat blade to insert a screw, I only use it to remove a
screw. If the screw needs to be replaced it is with a square drive
screw. Big flat blades drivers make decent pry bars in a pinch though.
On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:35:37 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 1/18/2012 8:24 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
>> Dave<[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:40:11 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>
>>>> Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
>>>> it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
>>>> screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.
>>>
>>> The reason I asked if you were using an impact drill/driver is that
>>> I've heard of some brands of Robertson screws misshapen slightly when
>>> the impact driver is working. It causes the screw to grab tighter to
>>> the bit.
>>>
>>
>> Sometimes if the bit gets stuck in the screw head, all you have to do is
>> reverse the driver slightly. Usually releases the bit quite effectively.
>>
>> Puckdropper
>
>Unless you are removing the screw. ;~) This is really a PIA when
>removing screws and cannot easily remove them from the bit.
Tap the screw sideways on a piece of scrap or the ground. It'll come
off. Or stick with phillips and/or torx.
I would never suggest that anyone use a flat blade type screwdriver.
AAMOF, I believe they've outlawed them in England now. <heh>
--
The human brain is unique in that it is the only container of which
it can be said that the more you put into it, the more it will hold.
-- Glenn Doman
>
> Do you mean Torx head screws? =A0They are what I use for deck screws... f=
ar
> superior to Phillips in that they don't strip out easily even if you don'=
t
> get the bit fully seated.
>
> John
Yeah, prob torx. I just never track nomenclature that closely. Looks
like a start or asterick so I call it a star.
On 1/18/2012 11:36 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 1/18/2012 8:26 AM, Dave wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 06:27:31 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> The draw back to the Robertson screw is that you can stick the screw on
>>> the driver and drive the screw into the wood and play hell pulling the
>>> drill and bit off of the screw.
>>
>> If you don't have them, then you need driver bits that socket onto the
>> screwdriver, not are just held on magnetically. But, it makes me
>> wonder what it is that you are doing differently or perhaps purchasing
>> differently. It's quite rare for me to experience what you have.
>>
>> Do you generally use a drill/driver or have you been using an
>> impact/driver drill?
>
>
> I don't use magnetic bit holders, the bits chuck mechanically into
> either the impact or drill chuck, and lately the Snappy Quick release
> chuck.
>
> Now I may have misspoken, I was referring to screws that fit the bit
> tightly enough that you don't have to worry about them falling off. I
> often have this problem with square v.s combo screws from McFeeleys and
> Kreg.
Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.
Now having said that I have been using square drive screws for probably
25+ years exclusively except when they are not available. I have no
intention of switching.
On 1/18/2012 8:26 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 06:27:31 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> The draw back to the Robertson screw is that you can stick the screw on
>> the driver and drive the screw into the wood and play hell pulling the
>> drill and bit off of the screw.
>
> If you don't have them, then you need driver bits that socket onto the
> screwdriver, not are just held on magnetically. But, it makes me
> wonder what it is that you are doing differently or perhaps purchasing
> differently. It's quite rare for me to experience what you have.
>
> Do you generally use a drill/driver or have you been using an
> impact/driver drill?
I don't use magnetic bit holders, the bits chuck mechanically into
either the impact or drill chuck, and lately the Snappy Quick release chuck.
Now I may have misspoken, I was referring to screws that fit the bit
tightly enough that you don't have to worry about them falling off. I
often have this problem with square v.s combo screws from McFeeleys and
Kreg.
On 1/20/2012 1:00 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:03:58 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 1/20/2012 9:37 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> Have you ever had a drawer glide screw "crap out on you"?
>>> How dey do dat?
>>
>> If you deal with many Philips washer head drawer slide screws you know
>> that the indentation in the screw head is shallow. This greatly
>> increases cam out potential and these things tend to be a pretty cheaply
>> made screw so they the heads strip out or break off pretty easily. When
>> you are reaching and balancing on your knees a perfect fit between the
>> bit and the screw are marginal at best.
>
> Heads breaking off and stripping out are usually either A) the result
> of an overtorque situation (so set your torque less on the driver) or
> B) the wrong bit for the screw or C) a bad angle on the drive. All are
> pretty easily corrected. When I see that happening to me, I usually
> try to pay a bit more attention to WTF I'm doing. ;)
Clueless?
On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:58:56 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 1/20/2012 9:33 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 06:42:36 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> Many years ago I used to show friends how well the SD screws stuck to
>>> the driver bit totally unlike a Philips head screw. Almost every time I
>>> am on my hands and knees inside a kitchen cabinet repairing or
>>> installing brackets for drawer slides the screw sticks in the driver,
>>> and I think to myself, what a wonderful world.. ER uh I wish these
>>> screws did not to this. LOL
>>
>> If you're -that- upset, go back to using a magnetized bit and phillips
>> screws, Leon.
>
>I hate both. And I have had Phillips stick well enough that the magnet
>is not adequate.
Huh? Oh, bit sticks in screw and driver comes away? Yeah, then you
learn that rolling the bit out of each screw can be of service and
make it a habit.
>Nothing is perfect, square drive and or Robertson is the most convenient.
Um, so you're bitching about them, WHY?
--
I have the consolation of having added nothing to my private fortune during
my public service, and of retiring with hands clean as they are empty.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Count Diodati, 1807
On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:03:58 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 1/20/2012 9:37 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> Have you ever had a drawer glide screw "crap out on you"?
>> How dey do dat?
>
>If you deal with many Philips washer head drawer slide screws you know
>that the indentation in the screw head is shallow. This greatly
>increases cam out potential and these things tend to be a pretty cheaply
>made screw so they the heads strip out or break off pretty easily. When
>you are reaching and balancing on your knees a perfect fit between the
>bit and the screw are marginal at best.
Heads breaking off and stripping out are usually either A) the result
of an overtorque situation (so set your torque less on the driver) or
B) the wrong bit for the screw or C) a bad angle on the drive. All are
pretty easily corrected. When I see that happening to me, I usually
try to pay a bit more attention to WTF I'm doing. ;)
--
I have the consolation of having added nothing to my private fortune during
my public service, and of retiring with hands clean as they are empty.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Count Diodati, 1807
On Jan 17, 12:30=A0pm, willshak <[email protected]> wrote:
> woodchuck wrote the following:
>
> > My old HD used to carry a drywall sort of screw that had the square
> > drive. =A0 No longer.
>
> Did you ask anyone at the store?
>
> Did you google -
> Home Depot square head drive screws
> or
> Lowes square head drive screws
> I did, and found them at both stores.
>
>
>
> > Compared to phillips, the square drive just seems superior to me. =A0Am
> > I dreaming?
>
> > I don't need high quality screws for most of what I do -- and if I do,
> > I'm fine with getting them.
>
> > HD / Lowes now sells a 5# box of phillips drywall screws for around
> > 18. =A0I'm looking for something equivalent but with square drive.
>
> > Or -- has square drive just become obsolete? =A0 Do I need to get out
> > more?
>
> --
> Bill
> In Hamptonburgh, NY
> In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
> To email, remove the double zeros after @
I have looked in the store itself. Online they show, but the are not
in the stores. I suppose I could ask if they can get them.
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:56:00 -0800, Larry Jaques
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:36:22 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:07:19 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>wrote:
>>>Where would one get a good Robertson bit? I get mine from McFeeleys and
>>>Kreg.
>>
>>My current set are Rack-a-Tiers. Bought them at my local electrical
>>supply house - Guillevin International.. The beggars were $8 each, or
>>something like that - but they WORK.
>
>I pay about $0.80 apiece for mine. I go through 2 or 3 per deck using
>the Makita impact driver. On the Ryobi drill driver, they last for a
>year.
At $0.80 each you get what you pay for - mabee.
On Jan 17, 9:25=A0am, woodchuck <[email protected]> wrote:
> My old HD used to carry a drywall sort of screw that had the square
> drive. =A0 No longer.
HD and Lowes carry deck screws with star heads. HD has them at one
extreme end of the screw area and Lowes usually has them in their own
space somewhere near the nails. Each box comes with the start driver
(a tiny one) and for some reason they have a few different sizes which
can be a hassle. I have an Itsy setup from Rockler that has all the
drivers I could want so I am usually good.
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:42:34 -0500, willshak <[email protected]>
wrote:
>John Grossbohlin wrote the following:
>>
>> "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On Jan 17, 9:25 am, woodchuck <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> My old HD used to carry a drywall sort of screw that had the square
>>>> drive. No longer.
>>
>>> HD and Lowes carry deck screws with star heads. HD has them at one
>>> extreme end of the screw area and Lowes usually has them in their own
>>> space somewhere near the nails. Each box comes with the start driver
>>> (a tiny one) and for some reason they have a few different sizes which
>>> can be a hassle. I have an Itsy setup from Rockler that has all the
>>> drivers I could want so I am usually good.
>>
>> Do you mean Torx head screws?
>
>
>They're not Torx. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx
>Square bits are square http://www.wihatools.com/700seri/718serie.htm
>
>
>
>They are what I use for deck screws...
>> far superior to Phillips in that they don't strip out easily even if you
>> don't get the bit fully seated.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
The are, officially, called ROBERTSON socket drive screws, or
SCRULOX. It was invented in Canada - so, Americans being as xenophobic
as they have been over the decades, it never really took hold in the
USA.
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 06:27:31 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 1/17/2012 9:06 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:46:16 -0500, Dave<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:04:54 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>> Canadians have known that for over 50 years - "robertson" screws are
>>>> VERY common up here. Used to be they were all Canadian made quality
>>>> stuff, now much of it is the same cheap Chinese CRAP you guys get
>>>> south of the lakes.
>>>
>>> Naturally we've know that because Robertson was Canadian. One of the
>>> advantages of Robertson screws is that the square drive gives extra
>>> holding power which permits more torque on the screws. And if you're
>>> adding more torque, then you don't want a cheap version of the screw
>>> that might snap off. ~ Nothing more irritating. That is the biggest
>>> reason to buy better quality when it comes to square drive screws.
>> The BEAUTY of a robertson screw is you can stick the screw on the
>> driver - point it vertually ANYWHERE and not worry about loosing the
>> screw when you try to start it - even into sheet metal or wood with no
>> pilot hole drilled. Makes it's own awl.
>
>The draw back to the Robertson screw is that you can stick the screw on
>the driver and drive the screw into the wood and play hell pulling the
>drill and bit off of the screw. Yes this happens more often than I wish
>and normally when I am reaching into the back of a cabinet mounting
>drawer slides and or supports.
Then you don't have a good robertson bit. Never had a problem getting
the bit out of the head - or keeping it in when i wanted it in.
The US car companies wouldn't accept his tight grasp on the patent and thus
it never flew back in the days when all people ever did with drivers was fix
their cars.
It could have been the other way around and we might have been stuck with
Phillips crap. AT least they changed the drywall screws to Frearsen (sp?).
When I open anything, to assemble, supplied with Philips screws in it I
just throw them out. I hate having to driil that crap out ten years from
now.
-----------------
wrote in message news:[email protected]...
The fact they were only MADE in Canada is only an excuse for them to
not be used in the USA. There are a LOT of things only made in the USA
that are /were extensively used in Canada..
Lowes & HD in my area have carried at least a
small group of "combo" head screws for the last
several years.
These boys are going to have almost "any" screw
you want and they will be right there with Lowes
or HD in price.
The current offer is $1.00 shipping to the lower 48 states on any order:
http://www.mcfeelys.com/
On 1/17/2012 10:48 AM, woodchuck wrote:
>>
>>> Compared to phillips, the square drive just seems superior to me. Am
>>> I dreaming?
>>
>>> I don't need high quality screws for most of what I do -- and if I do,
>>> I'm fine with getting them.
>>
>>> HD / Lowes now sells a 5# box of phillips drywall screws for around
>>> 18. I'm looking for something equivalent but with square drive.
>>
>>> Or -- has square drive just become obsolete? Do I need to get out
>>> more?
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:49:54 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:56:00 -0800, Larry Jaques
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:36:22 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:07:19 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>wrote:
>>>>Where would one get a good Robertson bit? I get mine from McFeeleys and
>>>>Kreg.
>>>
>>>My current set are Rack-a-Tiers. Bought them at my local electrical
>>>supply house - Guillevin International.. The beggars were $8 each, or
>>>something like that - but they WORK.
>>
>>I pay about $0.80 apiece for mine. I go through 2 or 3 per deck using
>>the Makita impact driver. On the Ryobi drill driver, they last for a
>>year.
> At $0.80 each you get what you pay for - mabee.
At $0.80 each, I can find them here, same day, or I can keep a stock
of them as I usually do. Isn't a year long enough life for you? ;)
For decking, driving 3-1/2" or 4" screws into lumber all day is a real
killer of bits. They wear out/round over @ 1,350 lb/in and 2,800bpm.
As with all consumables, I charge the $2.40 to the client. Yeah, I get
what I pay for. The "good" bits from LVT and other places don't hold
up much better, and they will snap at the tip, leaving the aluminum
holder intact. The occasional bad bits from other sources @ $2-3
apiece don't hold up nearly as well.
I'm very happy with the $0.80 bits. I get ten to your one with decent
life. What's -not- to like? They're a very good value.
--
The human brain is unique in that it is the only container of which
it can be said that the more you put into it, the more it will hold.
-- Glenn Doman
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:18:05 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 1/18/2012 7:09 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
>>> it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
>>> screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.
>>>
>>> Now having said that I have been using square drive screws for probably
>>> 25+ years exclusively except when they are not available. I have no
>>> intention of switching.
>>
>> Do you use ball retainer types? They can usually be pulled without
>> too much wiggling. Wire clip retainer types or magnetics will lost
>> the bit when you do that. I switched over to ball retainer and have
>> been much happier with square drive deck screws, those I use the most.
>>
>
>The problem is not removing the bit from the drill, it is removing the
>bit from the screw.
Au contraire, mon ami. If your bit sticks in the screw but isn't well
retained, the drill comes away without it. The ball retainer gives it
more oomph to pull out when it sticks because you have to drill to
hang onto.
--
The human brain is unique in that it is the only container of which
it can be said that the more you put into it, the more it will hold.
-- Glenn Doman
On 1/18/2012 9:51 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:18:05 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 1/18/2012 7:09 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
>>>> it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
>>>> screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.
>>>>
>>>> Now having said that I have been using square drive screws for probably
>>>> 25+ years exclusively except when they are not available. I have no
>>>> intention of switching.
>>>
>>> Do you use ball retainer types? They can usually be pulled without
>>> too much wiggling. Wire clip retainer types or magnetics will lost
>>> the bit when you do that. I switched over to ball retainer and have
>>> been much happier with square drive deck screws, those I use the most.
>>>
>>
>> The problem is not removing the bit from the drill, it is removing the
>> bit from the screw.
>
> Au contraire, mon ami. If your bit sticks in the screw but isn't well
> retained, the drill comes away without it. The ball retainer gives it
> more oomph to pull out when it sticks because you have to drill to
> hang onto.
Still not getting it. I can release the drill/driver bit and it will
hang on to the screw. Picture the drill just hanging there connected to
the screw.
"Nothing" separates. I often have to screw the removed screw into a
scrap of wood to be able to have enough grip to separate it from the
driver bit. I have no problems with the driver bit coming off of the
drill.
On 1/18/2012 9:51 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:18:05 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 1/18/2012 7:09 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
>>>> it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
>>>> screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.
>>>>
>>>> Now having said that I have been using square drive screws for probably
>>>> 25+ years exclusively except when they are not available. I have no
>>>> intention of switching.
>>>
>>> Do you use ball retainer types? They can usually be pulled without
>>> too much wiggling. Wire clip retainer types or magnetics will lost
>>> the bit when you do that. I switched over to ball retainer and have
>>> been much happier with square drive deck screws, those I use the most.
>>>
>>
>> The problem is not removing the bit from the drill, it is removing the
>> bit from the screw.
>
> Au contraire, mon ami. If your bit sticks in the screw but isn't well
> retained, the drill comes away without it. The ball retainer gives it
> more oomph to pull out when it sticks because you have to drill to
> hang onto.
Let me explain it this way, imagine putting a drop of super glue in the
head of the screw and letting it cure with the bit inserted. It is that
tight of a fit. Pulling on the drill and bit does not separate
anything. Working the drill and bit back and forth 2~3 seconds finally
works the bit free of the screw. AND that is easier when driving
screws. Removing screws is a bigger problem.
On 1/19/2012 6:39 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:49:54 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:56:00 -0800, Larry Jaques
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:36:22 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:07:19 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Where would one get a good Robertson bit? I get mine from McFeeleys and
>>>>> Kreg.
>>>>
>>>> My current set are Rack-a-Tiers. Bought them at my local electrical
>>>> supply house - Guillevin International.. The beggars were $8 each, or
>>>> something like that - but they WORK.
>>>
>>> I pay about $0.80 apiece for mine. I go through 2 or 3 per deck using
>>> the Makita impact driver. On the Ryobi drill driver, they last for a
>>> year.
>> At $0.80 each you get what you pay for - mabee.
>
> At $0.80 each, I can find them here, same day, or I can keep a stock
> of them as I usually do. Isn't a year long enough life for you? ;)
> For decking, driving 3-1/2" or 4" screws into lumber all day is a real
> killer of bits. They wear out/round over @ 1,350 lb/in and 2,800bpm.
>
> As with all consumables, I charge the $2.40 to the client. Yeah, I get
> what I pay for. The "good" bits from LVT and other places don't hold
> up much better, and they will snap at the tip, leaving the aluminum
> holder intact. The occasional bad bits from other sources @ $2-3
> apiece don't hold up nearly as well.
>
> I'm very happy with the $0.80 bits. I get ten to your one with decent
> life. What's -not- to like? They're a very good value.
Life expectancy is not the issue, being able to simply remove the bit
from the screw is.
In article <[email protected]>,
woodchuck <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Or -- has square drive just become obsolete? Do I need to get out
>more?
Au contraire; square drive is the future, IMHO.
Fun trivia fact: the Phillips head is *designed* to cam out when you
tighten them. It's to keep you from over-torquing them.
I get mine from McFeely's, but they're expensive. Local contractor's
lumber yard also carries them, but in limited sizes.
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
In article <[email protected]>
[email protected] writes:
>On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:36:25 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] (Edward A.
>Falk) wrote:
>
>>Fun trivia fact: the Phillips head is *designed* to cam out when you
>>tighten them. It's to keep you from over-torquing them.
>
>I'd like someone to come up with a CREDIBLE cite on that.
> It appears to fall into the "urban legend" realm.
Mainly I can find references to more recent cross-slot designs being
intentionally designed not to cam out the Phillips do. That's more
recognition of how they work than it is backing up a claim of intent.
Phillip's patent certainly doesn't acknowledge the cam-out. It
suggests the design is more effective for high torque (and compared
with slotted drivers it is).
The only reference I see to camming action is the claim (about screw
and driver meeting):
This same angular formation of both elements is especially designed
to also create what might be termed a camming action during the
approach of these angular faces toward one another with respect to
any substances which might have become lodged within the recess of
the screw.
He continues to claim that this action causes the driver to expell
any gunk that was in the screw.
http://www.google.com/patents?vid=2046837
Of course, high-torque cam-out may have been added in later refinements
to the design.
--
Drew Lawson While they all shake hands
and draw their lines in the sand
and forget about the mess they've made
On 1/17/2012 9:06 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:46:16 -0500, Dave<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:04:54 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> Canadians have known that for over 50 years - "robertson" screws are
>>> VERY common up here. Used to be they were all Canadian made quality
>>> stuff, now much of it is the same cheap Chinese CRAP you guys get
>>> south of the lakes.
>>
>> Naturally we've know that because Robertson was Canadian. One of the
>> advantages of Robertson screws is that the square drive gives extra
>> holding power which permits more torque on the screws. And if you're
>> adding more torque, then you don't want a cheap version of the screw
>> that might snap off. ~ Nothing more irritating. That is the biggest
>> reason to buy better quality when it comes to square drive screws.
> The BEAUTY of a robertson screw is you can stick the screw on the
> driver - point it vertually ANYWHERE and not worry about loosing the
> screw when you try to start it - even into sheet metal or wood with no
> pilot hole drilled. Makes it's own awl.
The draw back to the Robertson screw is that you can stick the screw on
the driver and drive the screw into the wood and play hell pulling the
drill and bit off of the screw. Yes this happens more often than I wish
and normally when I am reaching into the back of a cabinet mounting
drawer slides and or supports.
Josepi wrote:
>
> Meanwhile you are usually putting them in on some odd angle, can't
> line your eye up with the screw (inside drawer). The clothes in the
> drawer are restricting you arm space and it's dark in the drawer. No
> wonder most of the drawer pull screw heads are catch hazards for the
> wife's satin / lace panties! hmmmm... maybe that's a distraction
> too??
Oh no... another thread that gets into the "wife" thing... The wreck is
going to get very interesting over the next couple of days...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Yeah I just bought a few 1.5" drawer handle bolts with Phillips heads and
they are pathetic for socket depth. It would seem in an attempt to keep the
head thin they need to sacrifice a lot of depth in the socket.
Meanwhile you are usually putting them in on some odd angle, can't line your
eye up with the screw (inside drawer). The clothes in the drawer are
restricting you arm space and it's dark in the drawer. No wonder most of the
drawer pull screw heads are catch hazards for the wife's satin / lace
panties! hmmmm... maybe that's a distraction too??
--------
"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
If you deal with many Philips washer head drawer slide screws you know
that the indentation in the screw head is shallow. This greatly
increases cam out potential and these things tend to be a pretty cheaply
made screw so they the heads strip out or break off pretty easily. When
you are reaching and balancing on your knees a perfect fit between the
bit and the screw are marginal at best.
On 1/20/2012 9:37 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 06:46:07 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 1/19/2012 9:04 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Let me explain it this way, imagine putting a drop of super glue in the
>>>> head of the screw and letting it cure with the bit inserted. It is that
>>>> tight of a fit. Pulling on the drill and bit does not separate
>>>> anything. Working the drill and bit back and forth 2~3 seconds finally
>>>> works the bit free of the screw. AND that is easier when driving
>>>> screws. Removing screws is a bigger problem.
>>>
>>> Buy harder screws which don't tend to stick to the bit?
>>
>>
>>
>> Well I think I am buying pretty hard screws, they seem to never misform
>> and I almost exclusively use McFeeleys and Kreg screws. I don't want
>> screws crapping out on me.
>
> Have you ever had a drawer glide screw "crap out on you"?
> How dey do dat?
If you deal with many Philips washer head drawer slide screws you know
that the indentation in the screw head is shallow. This greatly
increases cam out potential and these things tend to be a pretty cheaply
made screw so they the heads strip out or break off pretty easily. When
you are reaching and balancing on your knees a perfect fit between the
bit and the screw are marginal at best.
More Talk-Stop to come!
You are probably just as much horny pervert (wood type) as I am.
--------
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Oh no... another thread that gets into the "wife" thing... The wreck is
going to get very interesting over the next couple of days...
On 1/20/2012 9:33 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 06:42:36 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 1/19/2012 9:02 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>>>> "Nothing" separates. I often have to screw the removed screw into a
>>>> scrap of wood to be able to have enough grip to separate it from the
>>>> driver bit. I have no problems with the driver bit coming off of the
>>>> drill.
>>>
>>> I guess we Left Coasters just think a little bit differently than you
>>> Texicans, Leon.
>>>
>>> So, do you need to buy better bits which don't stick as badly, or do
>>> you need to buy cheaper bits which don't stick as badly? Pick one. ;)
>>
>>
>> Yes! That is a definite maybe. HUH? ;~)
>
> I've found that some things are made so perfectly that they mate too
> well, so going to a different manufacturer or different grade makes
> just enough difference to keep it from happening.
>
>
>> Many years ago I used to show friends how well the SD screws stuck to
>> the driver bit totally unlike a Philips head screw. Almost every time I
>> am on my hands and knees inside a kitchen cabinet repairing or
>> installing brackets for drawer slides the screw sticks in the driver,
>> and I think to myself, what a wonderful world.. ER uh I wish these
>> screws did not to this. LOL
>
> If you're -that- upset, go back to using a magnetized bit and phillips
> screws, Leon.
I hate both. And I have had Phillips stick well enough that the magnet
is not adequate.
Nothing is perfect, square drive and or Robertson is the most convenient.
> P.S: Why don't you install dem glides while de top is still off the
> unit, so you have some room, boy?
As I mentioned above, repairing slides does not afford the luxury of a
missing counter top.
>
> --
> I have the consolation of having added nothing to my private fortune during
> my public service, and of retiring with hands clean as they are empty.
> -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Count Diodati, 1807
On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 06:42:36 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 1/19/2012 9:02 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>> "Nothing" separates. I often have to screw the removed screw into a
>>> scrap of wood to be able to have enough grip to separate it from the
>>> driver bit. I have no problems with the driver bit coming off of the
>>> drill.
>>
>> I guess we Left Coasters just think a little bit differently than you
>> Texicans, Leon.
>>
>> So, do you need to buy better bits which don't stick as badly, or do
>> you need to buy cheaper bits which don't stick as badly? Pick one. ;)
>
>
>Yes! That is a definite maybe. HUH? ;~)
I've found that some things are made so perfectly that they mate too
well, so going to a different manufacturer or different grade makes
just enough difference to keep it from happening.
>Many years ago I used to show friends how well the SD screws stuck to
>the driver bit totally unlike a Philips head screw. Almost every time I
>am on my hands and knees inside a kitchen cabinet repairing or
>installing brackets for drawer slides the screw sticks in the driver,
>and I think to myself, what a wonderful world.. ER uh I wish these
>screws did not to this. LOL
If you're -that- upset, go back to using a magnetized bit and phillips
screws, Leon.
P.S: Why don't you install dem glides while de top is still off the
unit, so you have some room, boy?
--
I have the consolation of having added nothing to my private fortune during
my public service, and of retiring with hands clean as they are empty.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Count Diodati, 1807
On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 06:46:07 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 1/19/2012 9:04 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>>> Let me explain it this way, imagine putting a drop of super glue in the
>>> head of the screw and letting it cure with the bit inserted. It is that
>>> tight of a fit. Pulling on the drill and bit does not separate
>>> anything. Working the drill and bit back and forth 2~3 seconds finally
>>> works the bit free of the screw. AND that is easier when driving
>>> screws. Removing screws is a bigger problem.
>>
>> Buy harder screws which don't tend to stick to the bit?
>
>
>
>Well I think I am buying pretty hard screws, they seem to never misform
>and I almost exclusively use McFeeleys and Kreg screws. I don't want
>screws crapping out on me.
Have you ever had a drawer glide screw "crap out on you"?
How dey do dat?
>On another note and response I mentioned that it may be the heat
>generated that causes the screw to tighten up on the driver.
Which begs for a cheaper driver, which doesn't have the tight
tolerances kept by the screw mfgr or the good bit mfgr. There will be
no interference fit between the two.
--
I have the consolation of having added nothing to my private fortune during
my public service, and of retiring with hands clean as they are empty.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Count Diodati, 1807
On 1/17/2012 11:25 AM, woodchuck wrote:
> My old HD used to carry a drywall sort of screw that had the square
> drive. No longer.
>
> Compared to phillips, the square drive just seems superior to me. Am
> I dreaming?
>
> I don't need high quality screws for most of what I do -- and if I do,
> I'm fine with getting them.
>
> HD / Lowes now sells a 5# box of phillips drywall screws for around
> 18. I'm looking for something equivalent but with square drive.
>
> Or -- has square drive just become obsolete? Do I need to get out
> more?
Look in your phone book and see if you have a Fastenal store in your
area. Kinda like having a local McFeeleys. Here is a reference:
http://www.fastenal.com/web/home.ex
Don't limit yourself to square drive, how about Torx? Stainless?
Silicone bronze?
--
___________________________________
Keep the whole world singing . . .
Dan G
remove the seven
On 1/18/2012 6:27 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 1/17/2012 9:06 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:46:16 -0500, Dave<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:04:54 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>> Canadians have known that for over 50 years - "robertson" screws are
>>>> VERY common up here. Used to be they were all Canadian made quality
>>>> stuff, now much of it is the same cheap Chinese CRAP you guys get
>>>> south of the lakes.
>>>
>>> Naturally we've know that because Robertson was Canadian. One of the
>>> advantages of Robertson screws is that the square drive gives extra
>>> holding power which permits more torque on the screws. And if you're
>>> adding more torque, then you don't want a cheap version of the screw
>>> that might snap off. ~ Nothing more irritating. That is the biggest
>>> reason to buy better quality when it comes to square drive screws.
>> The BEAUTY of a robertson screw is you can stick the screw on the
>> driver - point it vertually ANYWHERE and not worry about loosing the
>> screw when you try to start it - even into sheet metal or wood with no
>> pilot hole drilled. Makes it's own awl.
>
> The draw back to the Robertson screw is that you can stick the screw on
> the driver and drive the screw into the wood and play hell pulling the
> drill and bit off of the screw. Yes this happens more often than I wish
> and normally when I am reaching into the back of a cabinet mounting
> drawer slides and or supports.
THE ANSWER
Taken from
http://www.instructables.com/id/When-a-Phillips-is-not-a-Phillips/step6/Square-Drive/
A "fresh" US square drive driver with a "real" Robertson screw head
sticks so tightly that it can take a significant yank to get them
disengaged.
I suspect that because many SD screws are imported from the Asian areas
of the globe that Robertson stylescrews probably are copied and mixed
with Square Drive screws.
Soooo apparently I am wrong about the Robertson being at fault however
the Robertson is part of the resulting problem when the SD drive is used
with a Robertson screw.
Simple Google search for about 30 seconds will get that information
right from the horse's mouth, but....
Unfortunately the information has been removed from the Phillips
manufacturer website, recently
http://www.marfas.com/phillips.shtml
http://www.justbrits.com/pozi/pozidriv.html
-------------
I'd like someone to come up with a CREDIBLE cite on that.
It appears to fall into the "urban legend" realm.
-------------
wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>Fun trivia fact: the Phillips head is *designed* to cam out when you
>tighten them. It's to keep you from over-torquing them.
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:53:31 -0500, "m II" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I got some drivers for Torx and have turned a total of about 5 of them
>in my life.
>OTOH: I bet you don't have a Robertson driver bit and never see one of
>those screws either.
>
>---------
>"John Grossbohlin" wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>The discussion moved on to "star heads." Torx is exactly what they are.
>
>I've got bits to drive Phillips, Torx, square, straight, Allan,
>straight
>slotted, and a couple different sizes of sheet metal screws for my
>drivers
>and I use them all!
>
>John
I've likely got 10 or 12 - and I've used them all - a LOT.
On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:13:56 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] (Drew
Lawson) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>
> [email protected] writes:
>>On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:36:25 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] (Edward A.
>>Falk) wrote:
>>
>>>Fun trivia fact: the Phillips head is *designed* to cam out when you
>>>tighten them. It's to keep you from over-torquing them.
>>
>>I'd like someone to come up with a CREDIBLE cite on that.
>> It appears to fall into the "urban legend" realm.
>
>Mainly I can find references to more recent cross-slot designs being
>intentionally designed not to cam out the Phillips do. That's more
>recognition of how they work than it is backing up a claim of intent.
>
>Phillip's patent certainly doesn't acknowledge the cam-out. It
>suggests the design is more effective for high torque (and compared
>with slotted drivers it is).
>
>The only reference I see to camming action is the claim (about screw
>and driver meeting):
>
> This same angular formation of both elements is especially designed
> to also create what might be termed a camming action during the
> approach of these angular faces toward one another with respect to
> any substances which might have become lodged within the recess of
> the screw.
>
>He continues to claim that this action causes the driver to expell
>any gunk that was in the screw.
>
>http://www.google.com/patents?vid=2046837
>
>
>Of course, high-torque cam-out may have been added in later refinements
>to the design.
I believe it happens - I just do not believe it was " Designed to do
it"
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 06:27:31 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>The draw back to the Robertson screw is that you can stick the screw on
>the driver and drive the screw into the wood and play hell pulling the
>drill and bit off of the screw.
If you don't have them, then you need driver bits that socket onto the
screwdriver, not are just held on magnetically. But, it makes me
wonder what it is that you are doing differently or perhaps purchasing
differently. It's quite rare for me to experience what you have.
Do you generally use a drill/driver or have you been using an
impact/driver drill?
On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 06:18:55 -0700, "PV" <edrnouser@ spam telus.net>
wrote:
>Leon wrote:
>> On 1/19/2012 11:17 PM, PV wrote:
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:42:34 -0500, willshak<[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> John Grossbohlin wrote the following:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "SonomaProducts.com"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>> On Jan 17, 9:25 am, woodchuck<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>> My old HD used to carry a drywall sort of screw that had the
>>>>>>>> square drive. No longer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> HD and Lowes carry deck screws with star heads. HD has them at
>>>>>>> one extreme end of the screw area and Lowes usually has them in
>>>>>>> their own space somewhere near the nails. Each box comes with
>>>>>>> the start driver (a tiny one) and for some reason they have a
>>>>>>> few different sizes which can be a hassle. I have an Itsy setup
>>>>>>> from Rockler that has all the drivers I could want so I am
>>>>>>> usually good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you mean Torx head screws?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> They're not Torx. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx
>>>>> Square bits are square
>>>>> http://www.wihatools.com/700seri/718serie.htm They are what I use for
>>>>> deck screws...
>>>>>> far superior to Phillips in that they don't strip out easily even
>>>>>> if you don't get the bit fully seated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> The are, officially, called ROBERTSON socket drive screws, or
>>>> SCRULOX. It was invented in Canada - so, Americans being as
>>>> xenophobic as they have been over the decades, it never really took
>>>> hold in the USA.
>>>
>>> Mr Robertson refused to license his invention, he feared someone
>>> stealing the design. The screws and screwdrivers were only
>>> manufactured and sold in Canada for this reason. This is why they
>>> never took hold in the States.
>>
>> That is probably close but in reality I suspect that Mr. Robertson
>> could not prevent any one from stealing the design, a license would
>> not increase the chance or prevent some one from stealing a design.
>>
>> As I understood it he introduced the design to Ford when Ford was
>> looking for a better screw. Ford wanted to make a one time payment
>> for the rights to make the screws himself, Robertson refused, I
>> suspect he wanted to make and get paid for every screw. As it turned
>> out Ford ended up with the Philips style screw which in hind sight
>> was a better screw for mass production assembly.
>>
>>>
>>> I shipped a wood crate to head office in Texas, the lid was secured
>>> with Robertson screws. Told them the screwdriver was inside
You DOG, you. <g>
>> I suspect we would use out stolen design screw driver to remove the
>> Robertson screws.
>
>Maybe now :-)
>
>Back then they were clueless....and screw(driver) less
I've removed Robertson head screws with my trusty pocket screwdriver
and 4" MAC crescent wrench. The pocket screwdriver was the correct
diagonal width for the square drive pocket.
Similar tools: http://goo.gl/dfbGU and http://goo.gl/G4M9j
As an aside, I ground the crescent's jaw adjuster roller a bit so it
would allow the jaws to open to 9/16" and that made it very, very
handy in tight spots, where rusty or dinged threads made nuts hard to
get off.
These two tools came in handy when I was building computers, too.
Quite the pair!
--
I have the consolation of having added nothing to my private fortune during
my public service, and of retiring with hands clean as they are empty.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Count Diodati, 1807
On Sat, 21 Jan 2012 17:13:38 -0600, DanG <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 1/17/2012 11:25 AM, woodchuck wrote:
>> My old HD used to carry a drywall sort of screw that had the square
>> drive. No longer.
>>
>> Compared to phillips, the square drive just seems superior to me. Am
>> I dreaming?
>>
>> I don't need high quality screws for most of what I do -- and if I do,
>> I'm fine with getting them.
>>
>> HD / Lowes now sells a 5# box of phillips drywall screws for around
>> 18. I'm looking for something equivalent but with square drive.
>>
>> Or -- has square drive just become obsolete? Do I need to get out
>> more?
>
>
>Look in your phone book and see if you have a Fastenal store in your
>area. Kinda like having a local McFeeleys. Here is a reference:
>http://www.fastenal.com/web/home.ex
Does Fastenal sell to the public? Do they carry any inventory? The local
"stores" aren't all that big.
>Don't limit yourself to square drive, how about Torx? Stainless?
>Silicone bronze?
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:46:16 -0500, Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:04:54 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>Canadians have known that for over 50 years - "robertson" screws are
>>VERY common up here. Used to be they were all Canadian made quality
>>stuff, now much of it is the same cheap Chinese CRAP you guys get
>>south of the lakes.
>
>Naturally we've know that because Robertson was Canadian. One of the
>advantages of Robertson screws is that the square drive gives extra
>holding power which permits more torque on the screws. And if you're
>adding more torque, then you don't want a cheap version of the screw
>that might snap off. ~ Nothing more irritating. That is the biggest
>reason to buy better quality when it comes to square drive screws.
The BEAUTY of a robertson screw is you can stick the screw on the
driver - point it vertually ANYWHERE and not worry about loosing the
screw when you try to start it - even into sheet metal or wood with no
pilot hole drilled. Makes it's own awl.
That is usually the "plumber's screwdriver" joke!
--------
wrote in message news:[email protected]...
Back when the flat screws were very common, one of the guys that
worked for my dad as an electrician used to drive the screws in with a
hammer. He said the head was just to remove the screw.
On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 06:53:45 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 1/19/2012 9:08 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:35:37 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/18/2012 8:24 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
>>>> Dave<[email protected]> wrote in
>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:40:11 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
>>>>>> it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
>>>>>> screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.
>>>>>
>>>>> The reason I asked if you were using an impact drill/driver is that
>>>>> I've heard of some brands of Robertson screws misshapen slightly when
>>>>> the impact driver is working. It causes the screw to grab tighter to
>>>>> the bit.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes if the bit gets stuck in the screw head, all you have to do is
>>>> reverse the driver slightly. Usually releases the bit quite effectively.
>>>>
>>>> Puckdropper
>>>
>>> Unless you are removing the screw. ;~) This is really a PIA when
>>> removing screws and cannot easily remove them from the bit.
>>
>> Tap the screw sideways on a piece of scrap or the ground. It'll come
>> off. Or stick with phillips and/or torx.
>
>Believe it or not I have tried that and that does not always work.
>Typically I have to drive the screw into a scrap piece of wood and then
>pull on the drill while working it back and forth. It is not an always
>thing but it seems to happen when I am inside a cabinet.
>
>
>>
>> I would never suggest that anyone use a flat blade type screwdriver.
>> AAMOF, I believe they've outlawed them in England now.<heh>
>
>I never use a flat blade to insert a screw, I only use it to remove a
>screw. If the screw needs to be replaced it is with a square drive
>screw. Big flat blades drivers make decent pry bars in a pinch though.
>
>
Back when the flat screws were very common, one of the guys that
worked for my dad as an electrician used to drive the screws in with a
hammer. He said the head was just to remove the screw.
On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:36:25 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] (Edward A.
Falk) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>woodchuck <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>Or -- has square drive just become obsolete? Do I need to get out
>>more?
>
>Au contraire; square drive is the future, IMHO.
>
>Fun trivia fact: the Phillips head is *designed* to cam out when you
>tighten them. It's to keep you from over-torquing them.
I'd like someone to come up with a CREDIBLE cite on that.
It appears to fall into the "urban legend" realm.
>
>I get mine from McFeely's, but they're expensive. Local contractor's
>lumber yard also carries them, but in limited sizes.
On 1/17/2012 11:25 AM, woodchuck wrote:
> My old HD used to carry a drywall sort of screw that had the square
> drive. No longer.
>
> Compared to phillips, the square drive just seems superior to me. Am
> I dreaming?
>
> I don't need high quality screws for most of what I do -- and if I do,
> I'm fine with getting them.
>
> HD / Lowes now sells a 5# box of phillips drywall screws for around
> 18. I'm looking for something equivalent but with square drive.
>
> Or -- has square drive just become obsolete? Do I need to get out
> more?
I will second Mcfeeleys screw. Unfortunately they will be higher
quality that what you are looking for but will most likely be
considerably less expensive that what you are buying now. Buy in lots
of at least 100 at a time. Basically their average woodworking screw is
5 cents.
John Grossbohlin wrote the following:
>
> "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Jan 17, 9:25 am, woodchuck <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> My old HD used to carry a drywall sort of screw that had the square
>>> drive. No longer.
>
>> HD and Lowes carry deck screws with star heads. HD has them at one
>> extreme end of the screw area and Lowes usually has them in their own
>> space somewhere near the nails. Each box comes with the start driver
>> (a tiny one) and for some reason they have a few different sizes which
>> can be a hassle. I have an Itsy setup from Rockler that has all the
>> drivers I could want so I am usually good.
>
> Do you mean Torx head screws?
They're not Torx. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx
Square bits are square http://www.wihatools.com/700seri/718serie.htm
They are what I use for deck screws...
> far superior to Phillips in that they don't strip out easily even if you
> don't get the bit fully seated.
>
> John
>
>
--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeros after @
woodchuck wrote the following:
> My old HD used to carry a drywall sort of screw that had the square
> drive. No longer.
Did you ask anyone at the store?
Did you google -
Home Depot square head drive screws
or
Lowes square head drive screws
I did, and found them at both stores.
>
> Compared to phillips, the square drive just seems superior to me. Am
> I dreaming?
>
> I don't need high quality screws for most of what I do -- and if I do,
> I'm fine with getting them.
>
> HD / Lowes now sells a 5# box of phillips drywall screws for around
> 18. I'm looking for something equivalent but with square drive.
>
> Or -- has square drive just become obsolete? Do I need to get out
> more?
--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeros after @
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:07:19 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 1/18/2012 5:52 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 06:27:31 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/17/2012 9:06 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:46:16 -0500, Dave<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:04:54 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Canadians have known that for over 50 years - "robertson" screws are
>>>>>> VERY common up here. Used to be they were all Canadian made quality
>>>>>> stuff, now much of it is the same cheap Chinese CRAP you guys get
>>>>>> south of the lakes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Naturally we've know that because Robertson was Canadian. One of the
>>>>> advantages of Robertson screws is that the square drive gives extra
>>>>> holding power which permits more torque on the screws. And if you're
>>>>> adding more torque, then you don't want a cheap version of the screw
>>>>> that might snap off. ~ Nothing more irritating. That is the biggest
>>>>> reason to buy better quality when it comes to square drive screws.
>>>> The BEAUTY of a robertson screw is you can stick the screw on the
>>>> driver - point it vertually ANYWHERE and not worry about loosing the
>>>> screw when you try to start it - even into sheet metal or wood with no
>>>> pilot hole drilled. Makes it's own awl.
>>>
>>> The draw back to the Robertson screw is that you can stick the screw on
>>> the driver and drive the screw into the wood and play hell pulling the
>>> drill and bit off of the screw. Yes this happens more often than I wish
>>> and normally when I am reaching into the back of a cabinet mounting
>>> drawer slides and or supports.
>> Then you don't have a good robertson bit. Never had a problem getting
>> the bit out of the head - or keeping it in when i wanted it in.
>
>Where would one get a good Robertson bit? I get mine from McFeeleys and
>Kreg.
My current set are Rack-a-Tiers. Bought them at my local electrical
supply house - Guillevin International.. The beggars were $8 each, or
something like that - but they WORK.
On 1/18/2012 7:09 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>> Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
>> it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
>> screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.
>>
>> Now having said that I have been using square drive screws for probably
>> 25+ years exclusively except when they are not available. I have no
>> intention of switching.
>
> Do you use ball retainer types? They can usually be pulled without
> too much wiggling. Wire clip retainer types or magnetics will lost
> the bit when you do that. I switched over to ball retainer and have
> been much happier with square drive deck screws, those I use the most.
>
> --
> The human brain is unique in that it is the only container of which
> it can be said that the more you put into it, the more it will hold.
> -- Glenn Doman
The problem is not removing the bit from the drill, it is removing the
bit from the screw.
Dave <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:40:11 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>
>>Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
>>it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
>>screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.
>
> The reason I asked if you were using an impact drill/driver is that
> I've heard of some brands of Robertson screws misshapen slightly when
> the impact driver is working. It causes the screw to grab tighter to
> the bit.
>
Sometimes if the bit gets stuck in the screw head, all you have to do is
reverse the driver slightly. Usually releases the bit quite effectively.
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
On 1/18/2012 7:22 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:40:11 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>
>> Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
>> it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
>> screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.
>
> The reason I asked if you were using an impact drill/driver is that
> I've heard of some brands of Robertson screws misshapen slightly when
> the impact driver is working. It causes the screw to grab tighter to
> the bit.
Thinking more about this, I wonder if the heat generated when driving or
removing the screw causes the bit to grab the bit more tightly. That
would certainly explain why this is not a constant problem.
"FrozenNorth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 1/19/12 8:09 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 1/18/2012 7:22 PM, Dave wrote:
>>> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:40:11 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>
>>>> Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to
>>>> work
>>>> it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
>>>> screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.
>>>
>>> The reason I asked if you were using an impact drill/driver is that
>>> I've heard of some brands of Robertson screws misshapen slightly when
>>> the impact driver is working. It causes the screw to grab tighter to
>>> the bit.
>>
>> Thinking more about this, I wonder if the heat generated when driving or
>> removing the screw causes the bit to grab the bit more tightly. That
>> would certainly explain why this is not a constant problem.
>
> Are you using summer screws or winter screws? :-)
Yeah... that could be it as the type of "coat" they wear could be a
factor.... the light grey hot dipped ones seems to be sticker than the newer
dark ones... ;~)
John
On 1/19/2012 7:00 AM, Leon wrote:
> http://www.licensedelectrician.com/Store/RT/Racky_Bits.htm
Oh boy, how handy, color coded bit drivers: "No Jesus, the fuschia one!
How many times I gotta told you, two? You musta voted for Butch!"
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On 1/19/2012 8:58 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 1/19/2012 7:00 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>> http://www.licensedelectrician.com/Store/RT/Racky_Bits.htm
>
> Oh boy, how handy, color coded bit drivers: "No Jesus, the fuschia one!
> How many times I gotta told you, two? You musta voted for Butch!"
>
I guess you have noticed that. LOL Color coded have been available for
quite a few years now. Mose of mine from Mcfeeleys are color coded.
On 1/19/12 8:09 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 1/18/2012 7:22 PM, Dave wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:40:11 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>
>>> Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
>>> it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
>>> screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.
>>
>> The reason I asked if you were using an impact drill/driver is that
>> I've heard of some brands of Robertson screws misshapen slightly when
>> the impact driver is working. It causes the screw to grab tighter to
>> the bit.
>
> Thinking more about this, I wonder if the heat generated when driving or
> removing the screw causes the bit to grab the bit more tightly. That
> would certainly explain why this is not a constant problem.
Are you using summer screws or winter screws? :-)
--
Froz...
The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.
On 1/19/2012 8:58 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 1/19/2012 7:00 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>> http://www.licensedelectrician.com/Store/RT/Racky_Bits.htm
>
> Oh boy, how handy, color coded bit drivers: "No Jesus, the fuschia one! How
> many times I gotta told you, two? You musta voted for Butch!"
LOL!
--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:07:19 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>Where would one get a good Robertson bit? I get mine from McFeeleys and
>Kreg.
I buy my driver bits in bulk from Lee Valley Tools. But, I use
magnetic type bits not the shanked ones. (Except for some I bought for
the Yankee Screwdriver clone I bought from them.) I don't know if LV
sells the shanked ones or not. I suspect they do.
On 1/18/2012 8:24 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Dave<[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:40:11 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>
>>> Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
>>> it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
>>> screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.
>>
>> The reason I asked if you were using an impact drill/driver is that
>> I've heard of some brands of Robertson screws misshapen slightly when
>> the impact driver is working. It causes the screw to grab tighter to
>> the bit.
>>
>
> Sometimes if the bit gets stuck in the screw head, all you have to do is
> reverse the driver slightly. Usually releases the bit quite effectively.
>
> Puckdropper
Unless you are removing the screw. ;~) This is really a PIA when
removing screws and cannot easily remove them from the bit.
If driving the screws I can wiggle the drill ad driver bit back and
forth to facilitate the release.
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:40:11 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
>it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
>screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.
The reason I asked if you were using an impact drill/driver is that
I've heard of some brands of Robertson screws misshapen slightly when
the impact driver is working. It causes the screw to grab tighter to
the bit.
On 1/18/2012 7:36 PM, [email protected] wrote:
g
>>> the bit out of the head - or keeping it in when i wanted it in.
>>
>> Where would one get a good Robertson bit? I get mine from McFeeleys and
>> Kreg.
>
>
> My current set are Rack-a-Tiers. Bought them at my local electrical
> supply house - Guillevin International.. The beggars were $8 each, or
> something like that - but they WORK.
I'll look into that. May I ask how many screws you typically go through
in a year?
I am noticing that the bits may actually be Racky brand bits sold by
Rack-a-Tiers, an electrical supply company. And that probably explains
why they are more expensive although buying on line puts them in the
$3.95~$4.95 range.
http://www.rack-a-tiers.com/products/category/Colored-Racky-Bits
And Sold here
http://www.licensedelectrician.com/Store/RT/Racky_Bits.htm
On 1/18/2012 7:22 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:40:11 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>
>> Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
>> it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
>> screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.
>
> The reason I asked if you were using an impact drill/driver is that
> I've heard of some brands of Robertson screws misshapen slightly when
> the impact driver is working. It causes the screw to grab tighter to
> the bit.
That would not surprise me but I have always had this problem now and then.
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:40:11 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 1/18/2012 11:36 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 1/18/2012 8:26 AM, Dave wrote:
>>> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 06:27:31 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> The draw back to the Robertson screw is that you can stick the screw on
>>>> the driver and drive the screw into the wood and play hell pulling the
>>>> drill and bit off of the screw.
>>>
>>> If you don't have them, then you need driver bits that socket onto the
>>> screwdriver, not are just held on magnetically. But, it makes me
>>> wonder what it is that you are doing differently or perhaps purchasing
>>> differently. It's quite rare for me to experience what you have.
>>>
>>> Do you generally use a drill/driver or have you been using an
>>> impact/driver drill?
>>
>>
>> I don't use magnetic bit holders, the bits chuck mechanically into
>> either the impact or drill chuck, and lately the Snappy Quick release
>> chuck.
>>
>> Now I may have misspoken, I was referring to screws that fit the bit
>> tightly enough that you don't have to worry about them falling off. I
>> often have this problem with square v.s combo screws from McFeeleys and
>> Kreg.
>
>Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
>it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
>screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.
>
>Now having said that I have been using square drive screws for probably
>25+ years exclusively except when they are not available. I have no
>intention of switching.
Do you use ball retainer types? They can usually be pulled without
too much wiggling. Wire clip retainer types or magnetics will lost
the bit when you do that. I switched over to ball retainer and have
been much happier with square drive deck screws, those I use the most.
--
The human brain is unique in that it is the only container of which
it can be said that the more you put into it, the more it will hold.
-- Glenn Doman
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:36:22 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:07:19 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>wrote:
>>Where would one get a good Robertson bit? I get mine from McFeeleys and
>>Kreg.
>
>My current set are Rack-a-Tiers. Bought them at my local electrical
>supply house - Guillevin International.. The beggars were $8 each, or
>something like that - but they WORK.
I pay about $0.80 apiece for mine. I go through 2 or 3 per deck using
the Makita impact driver. On the Ryobi drill driver, they last for a
year.
--
The human brain is unique in that it is the only container of which
it can be said that the more you put into it, the more it will hold.
-- Glenn Doman
Was the name supposed to give us a clue?
------
"Swingman" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Oh boy, how handy, color coded bit drivers: "No Jesus, the fuschia one!
How many times I gotta told you, two? You musta voted for Butch!"
"m II" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:zCpRq.2124$d%[email protected]...
>I got some drivers for Torx and have turned a total of about 5 of them in
>my life.
> OTOH: I bet you don't have a Robertson driver bit and never see one of
> those screws either.
>
> ---------
> "John Grossbohlin" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> The discussion moved on to "star heads." Torx is exactly what they are.
>
> I've got bits to drive Phillips, Torx, square, straight, Allan, straight
> slotted, and a couple different sizes of sheet metal screws for my drivers
> and I use them all!
>
> John
If you're differentiating between un-numbered square drive bits and numbered
bits I'm pretty sure I've still got both... I source bits from various
places and the ones I ordered with my "meat powered driver" were numbered
but I may have worn them out!
John
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:11:06 -0500, "m II" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Coloured handles only. Robertson never had a #2 bit.
Yeller, green, red and black are the 4 common ones,
>
>(notice that "u" in "colored"? We added it to resolve the "n" word
>problem"
>
>I been developing two sets lately. A set for the workshop and a set for
>lazy me when I don't feel like the 3m trek across the snow.
>
>-----------
>"John Grossbohlin" wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>If you're differentiating between un-numbered square drive bits and
>numbered
>bits I'm pretty sure I've still got both... I source bits from various
>places and the ones I ordered with my "meat powered driver" were
>numbered
>but I may have worn them out!
>
>John
Dave wrote the following:
> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 06:27:31 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> The draw back to the Robertson screw is that you can stick the screw on
>> the driver and drive the screw into the wood and play hell pulling the
>> drill and bit off of the screw.
>
> If you don't have them, then you need driver bits that socket onto the
> screwdriver, not are just held on magnetically. But, it makes me
> wonder what it is that you are doing differently or perhaps purchasing
> differently. It's quite rare for me to experience what you have.
>
> Do you generally use a drill/driver or have you been using an
> impact/driver drill?
Well, I know what clare is saying. A few years ago I replaced all the
wood fencing on my property line with vinyl fencing using white painted
aluminum square drive screws. Yes, I used the magnetic drill extension
because I might have to change from screwing to drilling.
I was using a Ryobi 18 volt power screwdriver. The Ryobi had a magnetic
plate on the base where I could hold the drive bit or the screwdriver
bit until needed. Sometimes the bit stuck in the square drive screw as I
pulled the magnetic driver extension away. Other times, the bit fell
from the extension, or the screw head, into the grass and I had to
search for it, a few times unsuccessfully. I realize that the painted
screw heads likely caused the bit to stick. Even with all that, I would
still use the square drive screws in exterior work where available.
--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeros after @
willshak wrote the following:
> Dave wrote the following:
>> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 06:27:31 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> The draw back to the Robertson screw is that you can stick the screw
>>> on the driver and drive the screw into the wood and play hell pulling
>>> the drill and bit off of the screw.
>>
>> If you don't have them, then you need driver bits that socket onto the
>> screwdriver, not are just held on magnetically. But, it makes me
>> wonder what it is that you are doing differently or perhaps purchasing
>> differently. It's quite rare for me to experience what you have.
>>
>> Do you generally use a drill/driver or have you been using an
>> impact/driver drill?
>
> Well, I know what clare is saying. A few years ago I replaced all the
> wood fencing on my property line with vinyl fencing using white painted
> aluminum square drive screws. Yes, I used the magnetic drill extension
> because I might have to change from screwing to drilling.
> I was using a Ryobi 18 volt power screwdriver. The Ryobi had a magnetic
> plate on the base where I could hold the drive bit
I misspelled 'drill bit'.
> or the screwdriver
> bit until needed. Sometimes the bit stuck in the square drive screw as I
> pulled the magnetic driver extension away. Other times, the bit fell
> from the extension, or the screw head, into the grass and I had to
> search for it, a few times unsuccessfully. I realize that the painted
> screw heads likely caused the bit to stick. Even with all that, I would
> still use the square drive screws in exterior work where available.
>
--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeros after @
On 1/20/2012 7:18 AM, PV wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 1/19/2012 11:17 PM, PV wrote:
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:42:34 -0500, willshak<[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> John Grossbohlin wrote the following:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "SonomaProducts.com"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>> On Jan 17, 9:25 am, woodchuck<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>> My old HD used to carry a drywall sort of screw that had the
>>>>>>>> square drive. No longer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> HD and Lowes carry deck screws with star heads. HD has them at
>>>>>>> one extreme end of the screw area and Lowes usually has them in
>>>>>>> their own space somewhere near the nails. Each box comes with
>>>>>>> the start driver (a tiny one) and for some reason they have a
>>>>>>> few different sizes which can be a hassle. I have an Itsy setup
>>>>>>> from Rockler that has all the drivers I could want so I am
>>>>>>> usually good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you mean Torx head screws?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> They're not Torx. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx
>>>>> Square bits are square
>>>>> http://www.wihatools.com/700seri/718serie.htm They are what I use for
>>>>> deck screws...
>>>>>> far superior to Phillips in that they don't strip out easily even
>>>>>> if you don't get the bit fully seated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> The are, officially, called ROBERTSON socket drive screws, or
>>>> SCRULOX. It was invented in Canada - so, Americans being as
>>>> xenophobic as they have been over the decades, it never really took
>>>> hold in the USA.
>>>
>>> Mr Robertson refused to license his invention, he feared someone
>>> stealing the design. The screws and screwdrivers were only
>>> manufactured and sold in Canada for this reason. This is why they
>>> never took hold in the States.
>>
>> That is probably close but in reality I suspect that Mr. Robertson
>> could not prevent any one from stealing the design, a license would
>> not increase the chance or prevent some one from stealing a design.
>>
>> As I understood it he introduced the design to Ford when Ford was
>> looking for a better screw. Ford wanted to make a one time payment
>> for the rights to make the screws himself, Robertson refused, I
>> suspect he wanted to make and get paid for every screw. As it turned
>> out Ford ended up with the Philips style screw which in hind sight
>> was a better screw for mass production assembly.
>>
>>>
>>> I shipped a wood crate to head office in Texas, the lid was secured
>>> with Robertson screws. Told them the screwdriver was inside
>>>
>>
>> I suspect we would use out stolen design screw driver to remove the
>> Robertson screws.
>
> Maybe now :-)
>
> Back then they were clueless....and screw(driver) less
Yeah! LOL
Interesting fact I learned about the Philips Robertson Ford story,
Cadillac was the first to use the Philips head screw in mass production
of American automobiles. Ford apparently followed along as most of the
industry had switched by 1940. The Philips was developed in 1936, the
Robertson in 1907.
http://www.marfas.com/phillips.shtml
I got some drivers for Torx and have turned a total of about 5 of them
in my life.
OTOH: I bet you don't have a Robertson driver bit and never see one of
those screws either.
---------
"John Grossbohlin" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
The discussion moved on to "star heads." Torx is exactly what they are.
I've got bits to drive Phillips, Torx, square, straight, Allan,
straight
slotted, and a couple different sizes of sheet metal screws for my
drivers
and I use them all!
John