$1k Burning Hold in Wannabe Neander's Pocket

Tanus <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

*trim*

> You sound realistic enough to realize that your initial outlay is more
> of a down payment for a lifelong quest. That quest, which is
> unattainable is to be at the point where one can say "Ok, honey. I
> have enough tools now. Why don't we go out and look at anniversary
> rings for each of your fingers?" As I said - unattainable, but a
> worthy quest nonetheless.
>

Don't you mean, "Honey, why don't we go out to the shop and I'll show you
the wonderful rings I made for each of your fingers? You know, with the
new lathe?"

Puckdropper
--
How do you clean soap? Can you protect wax, with wax? If a vacuum really
sucks, is that a good thing?

On May 1, 10:53=A0am, Lonlaz <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hey all. =A0I've been lurking in the old Wreck (see, I have the lingo)
> for a while now, and I need some informed advice. =A0I have been wanting
> to get into fine woodworking for a long while, and now have been
> authorized to spend about $1000 on my own tiny 'shop', which is the
> back of =A0a deep, and shared, one car garage about 12x8. =A0I have some
> tools, circular saw, drills, drill press, mistreated cheap handsaws,
> and have built a small workbench previously out of 2x4's and plywood,
> but I want to build another one for woodworking still.
>
> I've been doing a lot of research, but I'm convinced I won't really
> know what I need until I start working on projects, but I can't start
> working on projects till I buy my tools. =A0Also I'd like to make my
> purchases before the money evoporates into other things, so I need
> some help deciding.
>
> I am impressed by Roy Underhill and the other Neanders, and I think
> not going heavy on the power tools is the best way to sqeeze the most
> potential out of the small area I have to work in. =A0I will buy a
> bandsaw at some point, but not now.
>
> I am interested in making furniture, chests, booksheves and boxes. =A0I
> am also a bit of a japanophile, and am interested in that style.
>
> So, can you all help me out? =A0Which types and sizes of chisels should
> I buy? =A0Planes? =A0Measuring instruments. =A0How do I get the most bang
> for my buck?
>
> Help!
>
> Lonlaz

All the hand tool recomendations are great but you are going to need
either a tablesaw or a bandsaw to accurately cut wood down to size. A
circular saw *can* do the job but not nearly as accurate. Yes, there
are those that can cut more accurately with a handheld power saw or a
handsaw than most newbies can with a TS but a TS is just sooo easy to
learn.

A benchtop or portable (fold up legs) can be found for a good price
and can handle many tasks. A used contractor saw can be found on
craigslist in good shape for $100 almost every week. Add a mobile
base and you're in good shape.

Spend more than you want to on the hand tools. The quality will be
better and if you decide you don't want to continue you can sell them
as opposed to cheap tools which you may as well throw away.

Good luck and welcome to dorking!

I never said it was going to be decent. ;) I'm not shooting high for
this workbench.

On May 2, 9:31=A0am, David Starr <[email protected]> wrote:
> A decent workbench is a big project that can take a long time to finish.
> =A0 =A0Was it me, I'd make my first project something smaller and easier
> that I could bring to an end before I loose interest and heart. =A0Say a
> toolbox, or a cabinet to turn some nook or cranny into storage space or
> a book shelf, or a rack for things (knives, garden tools, shop tools,
> skis, whatever), or a simple box with a sliding lid done in nice wood,
> or...
> =A0 =A0A simple project, finished and on display, is a tremedous morale bu=
ilder.
>
> --
> David J. Starr
>
> Blog: =A0www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.co

[...snip...]

>So, can you all help me out? Which types and sizes of chisels should
>I buy? Planes? Measuring instruments. How do I get the most bang
>for my buck?
>
>Help!
>
>Lonlaz

You can get a lot of good info from a good book; see if your local
library has this book, or just buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Choosing-Using-Hand-Tools-Andy/dp/1600592740/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209658727&sr=8-1

Figure out how you are going to sharpen your tools. There are many
options, the lowest starting cost option is probably "scary sharp",
using sandpaper of various grits.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.woodworking/browse_thread/thread/ac600600f47eea4b/798769fbc0a3e6a3?lnk=st&q=scary+sharp+tm+group:rec.woodworking&rnum=1&hl=en#798769fbc0a3e6a3

If you are going to purchase surfaced/dimensioned lumber, you are
still going to need a way to flatten the faces and joint the sides
square. If you want to use hand tools, you probably want jointer and
jack planes. You may also want a scrub plane if you are going to want
to hog off a lot of wood quickly.

You want smoother and block planes regardless. Some of these planes
are available with bevel up configuration, in which case you can have
extra blades with different bevel angles for different purposes /
types of wood.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=52515&cat=1,41182

But you can easily blow the whole $1000 or more on new hand planes.

Decent used planes are available for a reasonable price through flea
markets or online, if you want to spend a couple hours (or more)
tuning each one up. Information on how to tune a plane is available
online. For example, here's a google search hit that seems to cover it
well:
https://home.comcast.net/~stanleyplanes/planes101/tuneup/tuneup.htm

Definitely get some cabinet scrapers for a few bucks (just a flat
piece of steel).

An Xacto knife makes a good marking knife when you want precise lines.
A good combination square is a godsend (for example, a Starrett,
http://www.amazon.com/Starrett-C33H-12-4R-12-Inch-Combination-Square/dp/B00002254K).

If you are going to do mortise and tenon joints, you can get specific
hand saws for this. A shoulder plane is useful for fine tuning such
joints. A router plus jig can do mortises and you can use floating
tenons as well.

A "gents" saw can be used for dovetails, cost can be under $30 new. Or
you can get a higher quality Western dovetail saw in the $100-150
range. If you look for used saws, you will immediately be wanting to
learn to sharpen/set them. High quality Japanese saws for joinery are
less expensive than Western saws (maybe $50 and up). You won't be
sharpening those, you replace the blades as needed.

Hmm, chisels. You can start with Marples Blue Chip bevel edge chisels;
http://www.amazon.com/Irwin-Marples-M444-S4-Woodworking/dp/B0000457K2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1209661047&sr=8-2.
The main knock on these is the durability of the edge compared to some
other, more expensive types. I have some and use them all the time,
but my Two Cherries chisels last much longer between sharpenings.

You can find some quality used chisels, such as James Swan, Charles
Buck, T.H. Witherby for maybe under $15 each. What you don't want is
pitting on the "back" of the chisel (the side away from the bevel,
more properly called the "face"), because you want that flattened and
mirror smooth.

Thanks a lot for the advice, guys. I'm definitely going to print out
this thread for future reference.

With everyone's advice, I'll work towards the beginnings of a full
shop, but I'm going to pick a project and buy what I need. This is
probably the best approach for my own sanity. I want to assemble a
workbench w/ mortise & tenon construction. As I lay it out in my
head, this is still going to require a decent chunk of those tools
that you've all listed.

Now it's time to do a little online shopping...

Lonlaz

Lonlaz <[email protected]> wrote:

> I've been doing a lot of research, but I'm convinced I won't really
> know what I need until I start working on projects, but I can't start
> working on projects till I buy my tools.

If you're at all near to Waco, TX a really good and inexpensive
introductin to hand tool woodworking is available from Homestead
Heritage's School of Woodworking[1] called Woodworking with Hand
Tools[2]. It's a one day class for $110 and you'll learn a LOT.
From there, you'll have a pretty good idea about what type of hand
tools you need to buy.


[1]: http://www.homesteadheritage-woodworking.com/index.html
[2]: https://www.homesteadheritage-woodworking.com/foundational.html

--

If you want to reply via email, change the obvious words to numbers and
remove ".invalid".

Lonlaz wrote:

>
> I've been doing a lot of research, but I'm convinced I won't really
> know what I need until I start working on projects, but I can't start
> working on projects till I buy my tools.

Your best bet is to pick a project and start it with the tools you have.
As you come to a part that requires a tool you lack, then go out and
buy the tool. That way you build up a stock of tools that you actually
use. If you just buy tools on general principles you will acquire a lot
of nice tools, but you won't use a number of them.
Good tools last forever. Craigslist is your friend. Also yard
sales. Used tool places, if you can find one near you. Auctions.
Yard sale tools go for a couple of bucks, and can be good as new after
cleaning and sharpening. Table saws and radial arm saws show up on
Craigslist for $100.
You mentioned that the garage is "shared". If shared with the car,
you can back the car outside when working in the shop and gain quite a
bit of room. Think about stationary power tools on casters, so you can
roll them out into the open, gaining clearance to use them, and roll
them back out of the way when you bring the car back inside.
The table saw or radial arm saw is the most useful stationary power
tool you can own. Both tools need clearance about them to keep long
stock from banging against the walls as you work. After that, a bench
grinder, drill press, band saw, jointer and thickness planer are nice
but it doesn't sound like you have room for all of them.
Measuring tools, framing square, try square, combination square,
speed square, dividers, vernier calipers, steel tape[s], carpenter's
bevel, marking gauge, 4 foot straight edge, are the most often used
tools in my shop. Also a pencil sharpener.
The fancy tool makers like Lee Valley make absolutely gorgeous tools,
close to jewelry in metal and hardwood. They also cost a bunch. You
can achieve excellent results with ordinary grade tools like Stanley or
Craftsman for a tenth the cost.



--
David J. Starr

Blog: www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com

Lonlaz wrote:
> Thanks a lot for the advice, guys. I'm definitely going to print out
> this thread for future reference.
>
> With everyone's advice, I'll work towards the beginnings of a full
> shop, but I'm going to pick a project and buy what I need. This is
> probably the best approach for my own sanity. I want to assemble a
> workbench w/ mortise & tenon construction. As I lay it out in my
> head, this is still going to require a decent chunk of those tools
> that you've all listed.
>
> Now it's time to do a little online shopping...
>
> Lonlaz

A decent workbench is a big project that can take a long time to finish.
Was it me, I'd make my first project something smaller and easier
that I could bring to an end before I loose interest and heart. Say a
toolbox, or a cabinet to turn some nook or cranny into storage space or
a book shelf, or a rack for things (knives, garden tools, shop tools,
skis, whatever), or a simple box with a sliding lid done in nice wood,
or...
A simple project, finished and on display, is a tremedous morale builder.


--
David J. Starr

Blog: www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com

Lonlaz wrote:
> Hey all. I've been lurking in the old Wreck (see, I have the lingo)
> for a while now, and I need some informed advice. I have been wanting
> to get into fine woodworking for a long while, and now have been
> authorized to spend about $1000 on my own tiny 'shop', which is the
> back of a deep, and shared, one car garage about 12x8. I have some
> tools, circular saw, drills, drill press, mistreated cheap handsaws,
> and have built a small workbench previously out of 2x4's and plywood,
> but I want to build another one for woodworking still.
>[snip] >
> Lonlaz

To make it simple, just send me a check for $1K and I will mail you one
of my patented Handyman Club glue spreaders.
mahalo, :-)
jo4hn

"Lonlaz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1d069236-3c5b-4884-8b30-384344704cb4@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
I never said it was going to be decent. ;) I'm not shooting high for
this workbench.

Don't feel bad. I'm in the process of buying a house with a garage so I can
start with a birdfeeder (my wife is a bird fanatic)! I hope to end up
making a few musical instruments (minstrel-style banjo, mountain dulcimer).
I've been working on the "academic side" of this for a while now.

I recall that I actually once made a bird feeder in high school--but that
was over 25 years ago. I was going to write "so it doesn't count", but
maybe it counts for quite a lot ("knowledge of safety", experience with
related tools, materials, fabrication). In fact, it's probably my old "bird
feeder" and "cutting board", "bowl", etc. which give me the confidence to
consider trying to build a musical instrument. Good luck on your projects!

Bill



On May 2, 9:31 am, David Starr <[email protected]> wrote:
> A decent workbench is a big project that can take a long time to finish.
> Was it me, I'd make my first project something smaller and easier
> that I could bring to an end before I loose interest and heart. Say a
> toolbox, or a cabinet to turn some nook or cranny into storage space or
> a book shelf, or a rack for things (knives, garden tools, shop tools,
> skis, whatever), or a simple box with a sliding lid done in nice wood,
> or...
> A simple project, finished and on display, is a tremedous morale builder.
>
> --
> David J. Starr
>
> Blog: www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.co

Lonlaz <[email protected]> wrote in news:eb895b90-caed-44fe-b1e6-
[email protected]:

> I am impressed by Roy Underhill and the other Neanders, and I think
> not going heavy on the power tools is the best way to sqeeze the most
> potential out of the small area I have to work in. I will buy a
> bandsaw at some point, but not now.

First step - join woodnet.net's hand tool forum, or sawmillcreek.org.

Lots of folks who really know and appreciate hand tools hang out in those
spots - well respected Masters and authors as well.

Good luck!

* Learn to sharpen....

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Thu, 1 May 2008 07:53:40 -0700 (PDT), Lonlaz <[email protected]> wrote:


I'd start with a selection of small power tools like sander, router, biscuit
jointer, good quality drill/driver, etc...
Stuff that with your limited space, you could have on a shelf over the bench or
under it..

Doesn't sound like you have room for a table saw, unless it's a bench-top type..

Lots of folks will have great advise on hand tools, but being a turner, I can't
help ya there..

>Hey all. I've been lurking in the old Wreck (see, I have the lingo)
>for a while now, and I need some informed advice. I have been wanting
>to get into fine woodworking for a long while, and now have been
>authorized to spend about $1000 on my own tiny 'shop', which is the
>back of a deep, and shared, one car garage about 12x8. I have some
>tools, circular saw, drills, drill press, mistreated cheap handsaws,
>and have built a small workbench previously out of 2x4's and plywood,
>but I want to build another one for woodworking still.
>
>I've been doing a lot of research, but I'm convinced I won't really
>know what I need until I start working on projects, but I can't start
>working on projects till I buy my tools. Also I'd like to make my
>purchases before the money evoporates into other things, so I need
>some help deciding.
>
>I am impressed by Roy Underhill and the other Neanders, and I think
>not going heavy on the power tools is the best way to sqeeze the most
>potential out of the small area I have to work in. I will buy a
>bandsaw at some point, but not now.
>
>I am interested in making furniture, chests, booksheves and boxes. I
>am also a bit of a japanophile, and am interested in that style.
>
>So, can you all help me out? Which types and sizes of chisels should
>I buy? Planes? Measuring instruments. How do I get the most bang
>for my buck?
>
>Help!
>
>Lonlaz


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

"Lonlaz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
I never said it was going to be decent. ;) I'm not shooting high for
this workbench.

A few people have suggested that you buy tools as you need them and not to
spend any money on bigger things iron until you know you'll them. Your
decision will depend on what you think you might like to build and then buy
the basics so you can build it.

When I was first setting up a workshop, aside from drills, screwdrivers
hammers, etc. which I already had, the first thing I bought was a
contractor's tablesaw. That was the tool that my workshop revolved around.
Even when I was a little kid, I was always building boxes and I knew I'd
continue with that trend. So I bought a tablesaw, used that to build my work
bench and continued on from there. What do you want to build first? What has
piqued your interest in woodworking? Something has caught your eye. What was
it? With that information, you can get some more concrete suggests as to
what you might want to start off with. (I'm talking about electric tools of
some form or type).

Chris Friesen wrote:
> Lonlaz wrote:
>
>> I am interested in making furniture, chests, booksheves and boxes. I
>> am also a bit of a japanophile, and am interested in that style.
>>
>> So, can you all help me out? Which types and sizes of chisels should
>> I buy? Planes? Measuring instruments. How do I get the most bang
>> for my buck?
>
> Feb 2006 Popular Woodworking had an article called "The Ultimate Hand
> Tool Shop" about how to set up a small shop for hand tool woodworking.
> It's aimed more at western tools, but much of the information would
> carry over.
>
> Japanese saws were designed for use with a different set of body
> positions than western saws, but many people still use them with
> western-style workbenches.
>
> There's some discussion of basic tools at Sawmill Creek. You might want
> to check it out.
>
> http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=73878&highlight=basic+hand+tools
>
>
>
> One aproach might be to decide on a project and get the tools necessary
> for that project. Many things can be purchased as needed, and can be
> worked around if you don't have them. If you use drawbore pegs on your
> mortise and tenon joints you don't need clamps. Hot hide glue lets you
> do rub joints on panels without clamps.
>
> Here's something of a list, organised more or less in terms of how
> frequently they're used. For the try square and combination squares,
> you want to make sure they're accurate.
>
> Misc:
> -marking tools
> -marking knife (can be an exacto knife or similar)
> -scratch all
> -try square
> -marking gauge
> -combination square
> -sliding bevel
> -measuring tools
> -6" steel rule
> -vernier caliper
> -measuring tape (a small accurate one is convenient)
> -clamps
> -parallel jaw ones are nice but expensive
> -pipe clamps are cheaper and length can be whatever you want
> -quick-grip ones are relatively weak but convenient
> -sharpening stones
> -or sandpaper to start
> -stones are expensive initially but cheaper in the long run
> -chisels (basic set of bevel-edge)
> -sharpen the smaller ones (up to 3/8") at 30 degrees since they're
> often used for light mortising
> -the 1/2" is general purpose, so sharpen at 25 degrees
> -3/4" and up are often used for paring, sharpen at 20 degrees
>
> Stock preparation:
> -jack plane (if you have a good jointer, the jack can be lesser quality)
> -jointer plane (nice, but I got along with just a good jack for a while)
> -rip and crosscut saws (or circular saw and edge guide)
>
> Cutting joinery:
> -dovetail saw (dovetails and small rip cuts)
> -carcase saw (small crosscuts)
> -tenon saw (larger rip cuts)
>
> Drilling holes:
> -brace and bit
> -eggbeater drill (or power drill)
>
> Final surface prep:
> -card scraper (need a file to sharpen it)
> -smooth plane (or sandpaper)
>
> Mortise and tenon joint:
> -mortise gauge (can use the marking gauge)
> -mortise chisel (can use drill press and bevel chisels)
>
> Cutting groove/dado/rabbet:
> -router/rabbet plough planes (or router, or tablesaw)
>
> Cutting curves:
> -coping saw (or jigsaw)
> -spokeshaves
> -rasps/files
>
>
> Chris

I haven't bothered to add it up, but if you went strictly with Chris'
excellent list, you'd likely get close to your $1k. Planes alone could
set you back $6-800 if you went with Veritas or L-N. I still don't have
a jointer plane and get along fine with my jack. I'd also highly
recommend a block plane. And a good one. Spring for the Veritas low angle.

In everything you get, try to get the best that you think you can
afford. That doesn't necessarily mean the best overall, or the most
expensive. Just what you think you'll be comfy with for the next few
decades.

I'd toss in some books too. Tage Frid's book is stupendous. "Tage Frid
Teaches Woodworking" Doug Stowe has an excellent book on boxmaking if
you're into that.

Chris mentions sharpening, but doesn't go into detail. I have the
Veritas Mk. II jig for chisels and planes and cannot say enough about
it. It's a tool I couldn't be without. I use relatively inexpensive
water stones from L-V, and I'm happy with them. Other guys have the
WorkSharp, and swear by it, but it's going to eat into your $1k pretty
quickly as well.

You sound realistic enough to realize that your initial outlay is more
of a down payment for a lifelong quest. That quest, which is
unattainable is to be at the point where one can say "Ok, honey. I have
enough tools now. Why don't we go out and look at anniversary rings for
each of your fingers?" As I said - unattainable, but a worthy quest
nonetheless.

--


Tanus

This is not really a sig

http://www.home.mycybernet.net/~waugh/shop/

Lonlaz wrote:

> I am interested in making furniture, chests, booksheves and boxes. I
> am also a bit of a japanophile, and am interested in that style.
>
> So, can you all help me out? Which types and sizes of chisels should
> I buy? Planes? Measuring instruments. How do I get the most bang
> for my buck?

Feb 2006 Popular Woodworking had an article called "The Ultimate Hand
Tool Shop" about how to set up a small shop for hand tool woodworking.
It's aimed more at western tools, but much of the information would
carry over.

Japanese saws were designed for use with a different set of body
positions than western saws, but many people still use them with
western-style workbenches.

There's some discussion of basic tools at Sawmill Creek. You might want
to check it out.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=73878&highlight=basic+hand+tools


One aproach might be to decide on a project and get the tools necessary
for that project. Many things can be purchased as needed, and can be
worked around if you don't have them. If you use drawbore pegs on your
mortise and tenon joints you don't need clamps. Hot hide glue lets you
do rub joints on panels without clamps.

Here's something of a list, organised more or less in terms of how
frequently they're used. For the try square and combination squares,
you want to make sure they're accurate.

Misc:
-marking tools
-marking knife (can be an exacto knife or similar)
-scratch all
-try square
-marking gauge
-combination square
-sliding bevel
-measuring tools
-6" steel rule
-vernier caliper
-measuring tape (a small accurate one is convenient)
-clamps
-parallel jaw ones are nice but expensive
-pipe clamps are cheaper and length can be whatever you want
-quick-grip ones are relatively weak but convenient
-sharpening stones
-or sandpaper to start
-stones are expensive initially but cheaper in the long run
-chisels (basic set of bevel-edge)
-sharpen the smaller ones (up to 3/8") at 30 degrees since they're
often used for light mortising
-the 1/2" is general purpose, so sharpen at 25 degrees
-3/4" and up are often used for paring, sharpen at 20 degrees

Stock preparation:
-jack plane (if you have a good jointer, the jack can be lesser quality)
-jointer plane (nice, but I got along with just a good jack for a while)
-rip and crosscut saws (or circular saw and edge guide)

Cutting joinery:
-dovetail saw (dovetails and small rip cuts)
-carcase saw (small crosscuts)
-tenon saw (larger rip cuts)

Drilling holes:
-brace and bit
-eggbeater drill (or power drill)

Final surface prep:
-card scraper (need a file to sharpen it)
-smooth plane (or sandpaper)

Mortise and tenon joint:
-mortise gauge (can use the marking gauge)
-mortise chisel (can use drill press and bevel chisels)

Cutting groove/dado/rabbet:
-router/rabbet plough planes (or router, or tablesaw)

Cutting curves:
-coping saw (or jigsaw)
-spokeshaves
-rasps/files


Chris

On Thu, 1 May 2008 12:12:34 -0700 (PDT), Limp Arbor
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On May 1, 10:53 am, Lonlaz <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Hey all.  I've been lurking in the old Wreck (see, I have the lingo)
>> for a while now, and I need some informed advice.  I have been wanting
>> to get into fine woodworking for a long while, and now have been
>> authorized to spend about $1000 on my own tiny 'shop', which is the
>> back of  a deep, and shared, one car garage about 12x8.  I have some
>> tools, circular saw, drills, drill press, mistreated cheap handsaws,
>> and have built a small workbench previously out of 2x4's and plywood,
>> but I want to build another one for woodworking still.
>>
>> I've been doing a lot of research, but I'm convinced I won't really
>> know what I need until I start working on projects, but I can't start
>> working on projects till I buy my tools.  Also I'd like to make my
>> purchases before the money evoporates into other things, so I need
>> some help deciding.
>>
>> I am impressed by Roy Underhill and the other Neanders, and I think
>> not going heavy on the power tools is the best way to sqeeze the most
>> potential out of the small area I have to work in.  I will buy a
>> bandsaw at some point, but not now.
>>
>> I am interested in making furniture, chests, booksheves and boxes.  I
>> am also a bit of a japanophile, and am interested in that style.
>>
>> So, can you all help me out?  Which types and sizes of chisels should
>> I buy?  Planes?  Measuring instruments.  How do I get the most bang
>> for my buck?
>>
>> Help!
>>
>> Lonlaz

Spending a grand on a bunch of iron you probably don't know how to use
will not get you into the game. Take a few classes at a local
Woodcraft, adult school or whatever you can find in your area. THEN
start the tool purchasing once you have a knowledge and a feel for the
basics and some idea of what projects you will start on. Capeesh?