OT: Replace plywood flooring: Perfect tool

On 6/22/2016 7:09 PM, krw wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 14:58:01 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 6/22/2016 2:22 PM, Michael wrote:
>>> It's a tight space so I could use a circular saw but I think the multi-master might be the better option because I can see so many uses for it as I fix stuff around the house.
>>
>> My vintage Fein is one of the most versatile tools I own, to the point
>> it is always in my truck ... when you need it, nothing else will do.
>>
>>> I have two questions about the multi-master:
>>> 1) I prefer corded power tools except for my drill. Is the multi-master like the drill in that you use it in so many ways that a cordless just makes more sense?
>>
>> Personally I would buy the corded version ... it is not a tool you use
>> every day, and, as above, when I need it I don't want to be dealing with
>> how much juice is left in a battery in a tool that has been sitting
>> around since the last use.
>
> I'm not a tradesman but I disagree. I have both corded (Dremmel) and
> cordless (Bosch) Fein clones. I never use the Dremmel. I have a
> bunch of 12V (or 10.8V, if you think they're lying ;-) batteries that
> I keep charged, so they're always available. LiIons don't have a
> significant self-discharge, so that's not an issue. IMO, if you have
> trouble keeping cordless drill batteries charged, you probably
> shouldn't use any cordless tools. Otherwise, they're great.
>>

Nothing was said about cordless drill batteries, those get used almost
daily. The multimaster, 20~30 times in 10 years.

And you do have a valid point, but in 15 years the Dremel will still be
working but probably not the batteries you have in the Bosch now.

Nothing against cordless, but long term, cordless tends to need to be
replaced because of obsolete batteries while the tool itself is still in
good shape. If you buy a decent multitool the tool is likely to never
need to be replaced unless you can't find batteries for it.
And unfortunately I don't believe that any one rebuilds Li-Ion which is
more and more the battery being sold with new tools.

Personally I am more inclined to buy cordless if I use it a lot, daily
in the shop, "if" cordless is more convenient. But so far I have only
bought cordless drills/impacts for the last 30 or so years.

In 1983 I bought a Makita right angle cordless, 7.2 volt. It was great
and much like a multimaster it got me out of jams, but not a tool that I
would use every day. I finally got rid of it, the chuck had not a spec
of tarnish or rust on it but I could not justify replacing the battery
after 29 years. My Festool drill has a right angle attachment that I
use on occasion and I am glad that I have it. ;~)

krw <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 20:24:46 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 6/22/2016 7:09 PM, krw wrote:
>>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 14:58:01 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 6/22/2016 2:22 PM, Michael wrote:
>>>>> It's a tight space so I could use a circular saw but I think the
>>>>> multi-master might be the better option because I can see so many
>>>>> uses for it as I fix stuff around the house.
>>>>
>>>> My vintage Fein is one of the most versatile tools I own, to the point
>>>> it is always in my truck ... when you need it, nothing else will do.
>>>>
>>>>> I have two questions about the multi-master:
>>>>> 1) I prefer corded power tools except for my drill. Is the
>>>>> multi-master like the drill in that you use it in so many ways that a
>>>>> cordless just makes more sense?
>>>>
>>>> Personally I would buy the corded version ... it is not a tool you use
>>>> every day, and, as above, when I need it I don't want to be dealing with
>>>> how much juice is left in a battery in a tool that has been sitting
>>>> around since the last use.
>>>
>>> I'm not a tradesman but I disagree. I have both corded (Dremmel) and
>>> cordless (Bosch) Fein clones. I never use the Dremmel. I have a
>>> bunch of 12V (or 10.8V, if you think they're lying ;-) batteries that
>>> I keep charged, so they're always available. LiIons don't have a
>>> significant self-discharge, so that's not an issue. IMO, if you have
>>> trouble keeping cordless drill batteries charged, you probably
>>> shouldn't use any cordless tools. Otherwise, they're great.
>>>>
>>
>> Nothing was said about cordless drill batteries, those get used almost
>> daily. The multimaster, 20~30 times in 10 years.
>
> Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. The battery technology is the
> same, so self-discharge isn't an issue. In my case, my 12V drill,
> driver, and impact driver, use the same batteries as the twitcher.

I'll agree that li-ion does hold its charge very well and for a long time.
But you always have the day when the battery simply poops out in the case.
I have a Bosch impact, 18 volt Li- ion. I seldom use it but it always had
juice in the battery and I always tried to recharge it before putting it
away for 6-9 months. Then one day I opened the case and the battery was no
longer useable. Fortunately I got a new generic from Batteries Plus for
about $25. Like the original the amp rating was 1.2. IIRC.






>>
>> And you do have a valid point, but in 15 years the Dremel will still be
>> working but probably not the batteries you have in the Bosch now.
>
> Probably not but I'll be out of a bunch of drills, too. The Dremel
> will probably still be working because it never has. ;-)

Ohhhhhh. :-). I thought Drexel might be better than the HF version.

>>
>> Nothing against cordless, but long term, cordless tends to need to be
>> replaced because of obsolete batteries while the tool itself is still in
>> good shape. If you buy a decent multitool the tool is likely to never
>> need to be replaced unless you can't find batteries for it.
>
> If I replaced the Dremel, it would probably be with a Fein. Their
> price has dropped a *lot* and the package isn't a bad deal anymore.
> That said, if there is a real choice of a cordless tool and corded,
> I'll take the cordless every time.

Yeah the Fein is really a decent deal these days. I believe I paid in the
$300+ range for mine many years ago. Any I would love to have the tool-less
version when changing attachments on simply readjusting the angle of an
attachment.


>
>> And unfortunately I don't believe that any one rebuilds Li-Ion which is
>> more and more the battery being sold with new tools.
>
> I believe you're right. Liability is a huge problem with LiIons.
> Aftermarket has the problem in spades.

From what I understand it is very important to test and match the cells
which I understand is time consuming. A handful of brand new Li-ion cells
do not necessarily work well together.



>
>> Personally I am more inclined to buy cordless if I use it a lot, daily
>> in the shop, "if" cordless is more convenient. But so far I have only
>> bought cordless drills/impacts for the last 30 or so years.
>
> I have cordless circular saws, as well. The little Makita paid for
> itself when I resided our VT house. It could even be used to cut trim
> on the ladder. I later bought the Dewalt but the batteries aren't
> worth crap.


>>
>> In 1983 I bought a Makita right angle cordless, 7.2 volt. It was great
>> and much like a multimaster it got me out of jams, but not a tool that I
>> would use every day. I finally got rid of it, the chuck had not a spec
>> of tarnish or rust on it but I could not justify replacing the battery
>> after 29 years. My Festool drill has a right angle attachment that I
>> use on occasion and I am glad that I have it. ;~)
>
> I also have a RA Makita, somewhere. Hmm, I guess it is over 20 years
> old. I've replaced the battery when I've had need of the saw (not for
> the drill). They aren't all that expensive. I never really liked the
> drill, though. It's kinda wimpy and slow. It did have its uses.
>
>
Yeah :-) my Mikita RA drill was wimpy too. And single speed and no clutch
so it was only good for drilling ut to about 1/4" diameter. As little as
I used it I would recharge the battery every time I pulled it out. Oddly
the battery could be recharged enough to drill a hole or two for 20+ years.

On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 3:14:42 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
> "Michael" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> >Friends, I know this is off-topic but this group has people who know
> >things.
>
> >I need to cut out a small square piece of plywood around a toilet that was
> >water damaged. What's the perfect tool for this job?
>
> I'd use a circular saw set to just cut the plywood. Remove the nails/screws
> holding it to the joists first or risk breaking the teeth on the blade!
>
> If you have the finish flooring removed from the room you might be better
> off replacing a larger area of the sub-flooring... this as a patch that just
> spans the two joists near the toilet would tend to flex excessively whereas
> a piece tied into other joists spreads the load better and is more rigid.
> Also, make sure you orient the face grain on the plywood across the joists
> and not parallel to the joists.

Great point, John. I'm also going to install tile so it's probably a good idea to cut a larger piece so there's no movement behind the 1/4 tile backer.

Yes, any excuse to buy a new tool!

Thanks for the info, Swingman! I think I'll go with the DeWalt. It's in my price range and I've always had good luck with the brand.

Mike

Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> Michael wrote:
>> On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 3:14:42 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>>> "Michael" wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>> Friends, I know this is off-topic but this group has people who know
>>>> things.
>>>> I need to cut out a small square piece of plywood around a toilet that was
>>>> water damaged. What's the perfect tool for this job?
>>> I'd use a circular saw set to just cut the plywood. Remove the nails/screws
>>> holding it to the joists first or risk breaking the teeth on the blade!
>>>
>>> If you have the finish flooring removed from the room you might be better
>>> off replacing a larger area of the sub-flooring... this as a patch that just
>>> spans the two joists near the toilet would tend to flex excessively whereas
>>> a piece tied into other joists spreads the load better and is more rigid.
>>> Also, make sure you orient the face grain on the plywood across the joists
>>> and not parallel to the joists.
>> John,
>>
>> Here's another question if you have a moment. If the flooring is
>> particle board, will that have to be replaced with plywood, or can you
>> nail tile backer to particle board.
>
> Am I overlooking something? Why would anyone want particle board in such
> a water-vulnerable location?
>
> Bill


Well, plywood will rot and swell too, but more than likely the sub for is
OSB, not particle board.

On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 12:54:45 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> On 6/22/2016 11:42 AM, Michael wrote:
> > Friends, I know this is off-topic but this group has people who know things.
> >
> > I need to cut out a small square piece of plywood around a toilet that was water damaged. What's the perfect tool for this job?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Mike
> >
>
> A Fein Multimaster or a clone of that tool.
>
> https://fein.com/en_us/

Leon, Derby and Whit3rd,

It's a tight space so I could use a circular saw but I think the multi-master might be the better option because I can see so many uses for it as I fix stuff around the house.

I have two questions about the multi-master:
1) I prefer corded power tools except for my drill. Is the multi-master like the drill in that you use it in so many ways that a cordless just makes more sense?

2) Is there a massive difference between the Fein and the DeWalt? Is it one of those tools where the extra 100 really makes all the difference?

Thanks,

Mike

On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 3:19:38 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote:

> >
> > >I need to cut out a small square piece of plywood around a toilet that was
> > >water damaged. What's the perfect tool for this job?
> >

>
> Great point, John. I'm also going to install tile so it's probably a good idea to cut a larger piece so there's no movement behind the 1/4 tile backer.
>
> Yes, any excuse to buy a new tool!
>
> Thanks for the info, Swingman! I think I'll go with the DeWalt. It's in my price range and I've always had good luck with the brand.
>
> Mike

Did some work for my brother, needed a multi-tool. He bought the Dewalt (cordless) and gave it to me when done. I like it, use it often.

I have no experience with any other brand.... other than a Stryker cast saw.

Sonny

"Michael" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>It's a tight space so I could use a circular saw but I think the
>multi-master might be the better option because I can see so many uses for
>it as I fix stuff around the house.

Ah... the real agenda has been exposed! It was a fishing trip for a good
excuse to buy a new tool! LOL

Michael <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> Leon, Derby and Whit3rd,
>
> It's a tight space so I could use a circular saw but I think the
> multi-master might be the better option because I can see so many uses
> for it as I fix stuff around the house.
>
> I have two questions about the multi-master:
> 1) I prefer corded power tools except for my drill. Is the
> multi-master like the drill in that you use it in so many ways that a
> cordless just makes more sense?
>
> 2) Is there a massive difference between the Fein and the DeWalt? Is
> it one of those tools where the extra 100 really makes all the
> difference?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike

The extra $100 vs the HF model really does make all the difference. I
have the Bosch and love it, but the HF gets more use... Mainly because I
donated the HF to the club "in case we need it" and we've needed it a
couple times.

The Dremel Saw Max is a potentially handy thing to have around, if you're
doing cuts best suited to the circular saw but have clearance issues.

Puckdropper

John McCoy <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> The Dremel Saw Max is a potentially handy thing to have around, if
>> you're doing cuts best suited to the circular saw but have clearance
>> issues.
>
> I have one of those - it's essentially useless. If you
> think you need one, buy a 4" grinder instead, and a
> diamond wheel.
>
> John

You're probably right about general use. It wound up being really handy
the other night as we were working on the model railroad. It was compact
enough to get into the area we needed it to and quite efficient at
cutting the board that was in the way.

I can see it being useful later as we try to cut the old Homasote out
while leaving as much of the existing scenery as possible. A circular
saw would require 1 1/4" minimum clearance, but that miniature saw
requires only about 1/2" or so.

Puckdropper

On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 10:00:31 AM UTC-7, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 12:42:26 PM UTC-4, Michael wrote:

> > I need to cut out a small square piece of plywood around a toilet that was water damaged. What's the perfect tool for this job?

> You could try a plunge cut with a circular saw.

That's easy and effective. The smaller the saw diameter, the less work will be required at the
corners. Beware nails, of course; a 'remodeling' saw blade would be good, it'll take no damage
if it does hit a nail.

<http://vermontamerican.com/products/specialty-blades/>

On Saturday, July 2, 2016 at 7:37:51 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Michael wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 3:14:42 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
> >>> "Michael" wrote in message
> >>> news:[email protected]...
> >>>
> >>>> Friends, I know this is off-topic but this group has people who know
> >>>> things.
> >>>> I need to cut out a small square piece of plywood around a toilet that was
> >>>> water damaged. What's the perfect tool for this job?
> >>> I'd use a circular saw set to just cut the plywood. Remove the nails/screws
> >>> holding it to the joists first or risk breaking the teeth on the blade!
> >>>
> >>> If you have the finish flooring removed from the room you might be better
> >>> off replacing a larger area of the sub-flooring... this as a patch that just
> >>> spans the two joists near the toilet would tend to flex excessively whereas
> >>> a piece tied into other joists spreads the load better and is more rigid.
> >>> Also, make sure you orient the face grain on the plywood across the joists
> >>> and not parallel to the joists.
> >> John,
> >>
> >> Here's another question if you have a moment. If the flooring is
> >> particle board, will that have to be replaced with plywood, or can you
> >> nail tile backer to particle board.
> >
> > Am I overlooking something? Why would anyone want particle board in such
> > a water-vulnerable location?
> >
> > Bill
>
>
> Well, plywood will rot and swell too, but more than likely the sub for is
> OSB, not particle board.

I'm sorry. That's right. It's OSB. Is this insufficient for nailing down tile backer board?

Thanks,

Mike

Mike

On Thursday, June 23, 2016 at 4:56:44 PM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 09:42:23 -0700 (PDT)
> Michael <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I need to cut out a small square piece of plywood around a toilet
> > that was water damaged. What's the perfect tool for this job?
>
> water damage around a toilet sounds optimistic
>
> but i would use a thick blade in a skilsaw
>
> might want to wear a dust mask and gloves
>
>
> might find more work to do when you cut out the small square

That is a concern, although we've left that bathroom unused for several months so whatever went on should be pretty dry by now. Still, you are right that this could be a much larger project than planned.

I have another question about multi-tools. I tried posting this question before but I don't see it.

I see that the Fein has a little fence that one case use for straight cuts.
1. Is this a standard attachment for multi-tools, esp. the DeWalt?
2. How well does that fence work?

Thanks,

Mike

On 7/2/2016 8:17 AM, Bill wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Michael wrote:
>>>> John,
>>>>
>>>> Here's another question if you have a moment. If the flooring is
>>>> particle board, will that have to be replaced with plywood, or can you
>>>> nail tile backer to particle board.
>>> Am I overlooking something? Why would anyone want particle board in such
>>> a water-vulnerable location?
>>>
>>> Bill
>>
>> Well, plywood will rot and swell too, but more than likely the sub for is
>> OSB, not particle board.
>>
>
> Thanks. I was guessing that, but reading particle board.
>
> Bill
>


LOL, Actually he did say particle board to begin with.

On 7/2/2016 7:55 AM, Michael wrote:
> On Saturday, July 2, 2016 at 7:37:51 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>> Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Michael wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 3:14:42 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>>>>> "Michael" wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>
>>>>>> Friends, I know this is off-topic but this group has people who know
>>>>>> things.
>>>>>> I need to cut out a small square piece of plywood around a toilet that was
>>>>>> water damaged. What's the perfect tool for this job?
>>>>> I'd use a circular saw set to just cut the plywood. Remove the nails/screws
>>>>> holding it to the joists first or risk breaking the teeth on the blade!
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have the finish flooring removed from the room you might be better
>>>>> off replacing a larger area of the sub-flooring... this as a patch that just
>>>>> spans the two joists near the toilet would tend to flex excessively whereas
>>>>> a piece tied into other joists spreads the load better and is more rigid.
>>>>> Also, make sure you orient the face grain on the plywood across the joists
>>>>> and not parallel to the joists.
>>>> John,
>>>>
>>>> Here's another question if you have a moment. If the flooring is
>>>> particle board, will that have to be replaced with plywood, or can you
>>>> nail tile backer to particle board.
>>>
>>> Am I overlooking something? Why would anyone want particle board in such
>>> a water-vulnerable location?
>>>
>>> Bill
>>
>>
>> Well, plywood will rot and swell too, but more than likely the sub for is
>> OSB, not particle board.
>
> I'm sorry. That's right. It's OSB. Is this insufficient for nailing down tile backer board?

And I cannot answered your question with any authority. I am not sure
if you would even use backer board on a floor.

On 7/1/2016 9:52 PM, Michael wrote:

> Here's another question if you have a moment. If the flooring is particle board, will that have to be replaced with plywood, or can you nail tile backer to particle board. If it needs to be replaced with plywood, what is the minimum width? 1/2 inch?

Replace the subfloor cutout/patch with the same material as the existing
subfloor material.

As John mentioned, span to the middle of two existing floor joists with
your cutout/patch.

IOW, if your joists are on 16" OC, your replacement piece with ideally
be the same material, and 16" in width (from side to side).

It is very common, and actually recommended, to install a cement backer
board of some type on top of the subfloor where tile will be laid.

It is OK to do that with an OSB subfloor. Install with fasteners
according to manufacturer's recommendation ... they all have that info
on their websites.

The "thickness" of that cement board can be different for each room
according to:

1. The status and usability of the subfloor (i.e., flatness, etc.)

2. The height needed for a smooth/acceptable transition into the next
room, when you add together the thickness of the backer board, the
thickness of the thinset/mortar, and the thickness of the tile.

Providing the floor is relatively flat, 1/4" thick backer board is
generally sufficient; but 1/2" is most often used as it has more
stiffness and will allow an acceptable transition.

Just insure that the sum thickness of the backer board, plus the
thinset, plus the tile, will still give you an acceptable transition in
height between one room and the next.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
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http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 6/24/2016 9:40 AM, Michael wrote:
> On Thursday, June 23, 2016 at 4:56:44 PM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 09:42:23 -0700 (PDT)
>> Michael <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I need to cut out a small square piece of plywood around a toilet
>>> that was water damaged. What's the perfect tool for this job?
>>
>> water damage around a toilet sounds optimistic
>>
>> but i would use a thick blade in a skilsaw
>>
>> might want to wear a dust mask and gloves
>>
>>
>> might find more work to do when you cut out the small square
>
> That is a concern, although we've left that bathroom unused for several months so whatever went on should be pretty dry by now. Still, you are right that this could be a much larger project than planned.
>
> I have another question about multi-tools. I tried posting this question before but I don't see it.
>
> I see that the Fein has a little fence that one case use for straight cuts.

I am not aware of any fence, got a link?

I did see a depth stop but not necessarily a fence to guide the cut.

On 6/25/2016 12:04 PM, Michael wrote:
> On Saturday, June 25, 2016 at 9:57:39 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>> On 6/24/2016 9:40 AM, Michael wrote:
>>> On Thursday, June 23, 2016 at 4:56:44 PM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 09:42:23 -0700 (PDT)
>>>> Michael <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I need to cut out a small square piece of plywood around a toilet
>>>>> that was water damaged. What's the perfect tool for this job?
>>>>
>>>> water damage around a toilet sounds optimistic
>>>>
>>>> but i would use a thick blade in a skilsaw
>>>>
>>>> might want to wear a dust mask and gloves
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> might find more work to do when you cut out the small square
>>>
>>> That is a concern, although we've left that bathroom unused for several months so whatever went on should be pretty dry by now. Still, you are right that this could be a much larger project than planned.
>>>
>>> I have another question about multi-tools. I tried posting this question before but I don't see it.
>>>
>>> I see that the Fein has a little fence that one case use for straight cuts.
>>
>> I am not aware of any fence, got a link?
>>
>> I did see a depth stop but not necessarily a fence to guide the cut.
>
> That's my mistake. I was looking at this video and at the 1:50 mark or thereabouts I thought I saw a fence but it's probably a depth stop. Could it conceivably be used as a fence though?
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7q6Au8fTLk
>
> Mike
>
NO, but you really don't need a fence. At least with the Fein the
vibration is so little that you can easily follow a line.



Watching this video below, Dremel vs. a new DeWalt, I think the user was
not real impressed with the slop in the blade clamp with the DeWalt and
I absolutely did not like the switch. Much like a VS drill, you hold it
and lock it on to full speed. The Fein and Dremel have a dial for speed
and a switch that does not need to be held. You will find that you hold
this tool in all different positions. This would be aggravating with
the DeWalt if you are used to a Fein. Once turned on the Fein and
Dremel can be held anywhere at any speed.
Still the Fein is the gold standard and vibration would be a serious
consideration if I were buying again.
The user also mentions the DeWalt light only shining forward. That is
not helpful if you use the blade at an angle in tight spaces. I use
mine at an angle quite a bit. The light is a nice feature but not well
thought out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPOcGccgvpU

"Michael" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>Friends, I know this is off-topic but this group has people who know
>things.

>I need to cut out a small square piece of plywood around a toilet that was
>water damaged. What's the perfect tool for this job?

I'd use a circular saw set to just cut the plywood. Remove the nails/screws
holding it to the joists first or risk breaking the teeth on the blade!

If you have the finish flooring removed from the room you might be better
off replacing a larger area of the sub-flooring... this as a patch that just
spans the two joists near the toilet would tend to flex excessively whereas
a piece tied into other joists spreads the load better and is more rigid.
Also, make sure you orient the face grain on the plywood across the joists
and not parallel to the joists.

"Michael" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 3:14:42 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>> "Michael" wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>
>> >Friends, I know this is off-topic but this group has people who know
>> >things.
>
>> >I need to cut out a small square piece of plywood around a toilet that
>> >was
>> >water damaged. What's the perfect tool for this job?
>
>> I'd use a circular saw set to just cut the plywood. Remove the
>> nails/screws
>> holding it to the joists first or risk breaking the teeth on the blade!
>>
> >If you have the finish flooring removed from the room you might be better
>> off replacing a larger area of the sub-flooring... this as a patch that
>> just
> >spans the two joists near the toilet would tend to flex excessively
> >whereas
>> a piece tied into other joists spreads the load better and is more rigid.
>> Also, make sure you orient the face grain on the plywood across the
>> joists
> >and not parallel to the joists.

>John,

>Here's another question if you have a moment. If the flooring is particle
>board, will that have to be replaced with plywood, or can you nail tile
>backer to particle >board. If it needs to be replaced with plywood, what is
>the minimum width? 1/2 inch?

>Thanks!

>Mike

Either OSB or plywood of the same thickness as the rest of the sub-floor
could be used... but if you have OSB I'd be inclined to make the patch out
of it. Same recommendation on the face grain orientation for either. I'd
hope it is 3/4" rated but it may be 5/8" or 1/2" rated... you'll have to
measure or look for the grade stamps on the old sub-floor (if you can see
the bottom of it).

In cases like this I tend to use the biggest patch that will fit (e.g.,
32" - 48" wide and 32"-48" long) to spread the load. Small pieces of sheet
goods flex too much unless you want to get involved with putting blocking
between the joists--which is often a problem around the waste and supply
lines. The last one I did the space was very tight (ridiculously tight as
my shoulders had little clearance on either side!) so the patch wasn’t very
big and there was no room for blocking between the joists. In that case I
screwed blocking to the bottom of the existing subfloor and to the patch.
That stiffened it up well...

Regarding the backer board, generally that can be screwed down. I use
stainless or ceramic coated torx head screws and try to get many of them
into joists rather than just the subfloor. Look for "deck screws" in the
store.

I fully accept that some folks will think I over do it sometimes but I
haven't had any failures to date so I'll keep doing it!

John

On 6/23/2016 11:22 AM, krw wrote:
> They were demoing the Fein at Woodcraft when I was in there a year or
> so ago. It was a lot easier to handle than the Dremel or Bosch, ISTM.
> Very little vibration.

Yep.

The vibration, and quieter operation, is what sets off the Fein from
others I've used.

Especially if you're prone to CTS. :(

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Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> The Dremel Saw Max is a potentially handy thing to have around, if
> you're doing cuts best suited to the circular saw but have clearance
> issues.

I have one of those - it's essentially useless. If you
think you need one, buy a 4" grinder instead, and a
diamond wheel.

John

Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> John McCoy <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> The Dremel Saw Max is a potentially handy thing to have around, if
>>> you're doing cuts best suited to the circular saw but have clearance
>>> issues.
>>
>> I have one of those - it's essentially useless. If you
>> think you need one, buy a 4" grinder instead, and a
>> diamond wheel.
>>
>> John
>
> You're probably right about general use. It wound up being really
> handy the other night as we were working on the model railroad. It
> was compact enough to get into the area we needed it to and quite
> efficient at cutting the board that was in the way.

Yeah but - a 4" grinder is just as compact if not more
so, a diamond wheel cuts faster than the Saw Max wheels,
a 4" grinder is cheaper (even if you buy a good quality
one like a Makita), and a 4" grinder can be used for a
lot of things a Saw Max can't do.

Suffice to say I regret spending money on the Saw Max.
It's in it's box somewhere in the back of the shop, and
I doubt it will ever come out again.

(for those not familiar with it, the Saw Max is basically
a 4" grinder with a circular saw style shoe. To quote
the late Lew Hodgett, it's overpriced and under-peckered)

John

On 6/22/2016 7:09 PM, krw wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 14:58:01 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

>> Personally I would buy the corded version ... it is not a tool you use
>> every day, and, as above, when I need it I don't want to be dealing with
>> how much juice is left in a battery in a tool that has been sitting
>> around since the last use.
>
> I'm not a tradesman but I disagree.

> I have both corded (Dremmel) and
> cordless (Bosch) Fein clones. I never use the Dremmel. I have a
> bunch of 12V (or 10.8V, if you think they're lying ;-) batteries that
> I keep charged, so they're always available. LiIons don't have a
> significant self-discharge, so that's not an issue. IMO, if you have
> trouble keeping cordless drill batteries charged, you probably
> shouldn't use any cordless tools. Otherwise, they're great.

"Personally" being the operative word, I agree ... mainly because it
would be both unreasonable, and futile, for me to disagree with your
actual, personal experience. ;)

For the OP's benefit, my rationale for recommending the tailed tool in
this case basically boils down to the ratio of actual use versus time in
storage for that particular type of tool.

I don't have a problem keeping my half dozen "cordless drill batteries"
charged as they spend about 50% of their existence out of storage and in
use.

However the tool in question, while admittedly indispensable when it is
needed, in reality will spend a good 98% of it's life in storage conditions.

And, in my case personally, in an environment (Texas), where prolonged
exposure to heat unarguably reduces battery life.

Just my tuppence when it comes to grabbing a specific tool whose use is
generally of rare, but urgent, nature.

>> Basically, let your budget and intended use (and where you will use
>> it) be the deciding factor.

Repeated for clarification ...

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On 6/25/2016 12:04 PM, Michael wrote:
> On Saturday, June 25, 2016 at 9:57:39 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>> On 6/24/2016 9:40 AM, Michael wrote:
>>> On Thursday, June 23, 2016 at 4:56:44 PM UTC-5, Electric Comet
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 09:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Michael
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I need to cut out a small square piece of plywood around a
>>>>> toilet that was water damaged. What's the perfect tool for
>>>>> this job?
>>>>
>>>> water damage around a toilet sounds optimistic
>>>>
>>>> but i would use a thick blade in a skilsaw
>>>>
>>>> might want to wear a dust mask and gloves
>>>>
>>>> might find more work to do when you cut out the small square
>>>
>>> That is a concern, although we've left that bathroom unused for
>>> several months so whatever went on should be pretty dry by now.
>>> Still, you are right that this could be a much larger project
>>> than planned.
>>>
>>> I have another question about multi-tools. I tried posting this
>>> question before but I don't see it.
>>>
>>> I see that the Fein has a little fence that one case use for
>>> straight cuts.
>>
>> I am not aware of any fence, got a link?
>>
>> I did see a depth stop but not necessarily a fence to guide the
>> cut.
>
> That's my mistake. I was looking at this video and at the 1:50 mark
> or thereabouts I thought I saw a fence but it's probably a depth
> stop. Could it conceivably be used as a fence though?

NO, but you really don't need a fence. At least with the Fein the
vibration is so little that you can easily follow a line.



Watching this video below, Dremel vs. a new DeWalt, I think the user was
not real impressed with the slop in the blade clamp with the DeWalt and
I absolutely did not like the switch. Much like a VS drill, you hold it
and lock it on to full speed. The Fein and Dremel have a dial for speed
and a switch that does not need to be held. You will find that you hold
this tool in all different positions. This would be aggravating with
the DeWalt if you are used to a Fein. Once turned on the Fein and
Dremel can be held anywhere at any speed.
Still the Fein is the gold standard and vibration would be a serious
consideration if I were buying again.
The user also mentions the DeWalt light only shining forward. That is
not helpful if you use the blade at an angle in tight spaces. I use
mine at an angle quite a bit. The light is a nice feature but not well
thought out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPOcGccgvpU

On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 12:42:26 PM UTC-4, Michael wrote:
> Friends, I know this is off-topic but this group has people who know things.
>
> I need to cut out a small square piece of plywood around a toilet that was water damaged. What's the perfect tool for this job?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike

You could try a plunge cut with a circular saw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rz0OgrP3Zk

Set the saw for the depth of the plywood or slightly less. Cut out most of the wood and then use a chisel or multi-function tool or any other appropriate tool
to remove what ever is left so you can lift the piece out.

The depth that you set the saw depends on what is directly under the plywood.
If you have to avoid cutting into it at all costs, then go shallow and then
carefully go deeper with a different tool.

On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 14:58:01 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 6/22/2016 2:22 PM, Michael wrote:
>> It's a tight space so I could use a circular saw but I think the multi-master might be the better option because I can see so many uses for it as I fix stuff around the house.
>
>My vintage Fein is one of the most versatile tools I own, to the point
>it is always in my truck ... when you need it, nothing else will do.
>
>> I have two questions about the multi-master:
>> 1) I prefer corded power tools except for my drill. Is the multi-master like the drill in that you use it in so many ways that a cordless just makes more sense?
>
>Personally I would buy the corded version ... it is not a tool you use
>every day, and, as above, when I need it I don't want to be dealing with
>how much juice is left in a battery in a tool that has been sitting
>around since the last use.

I'm not a tradesman but I disagree. I have both corded (Dremmel) and
cordless (Bosch) Fein clones. I never use the Dremmel. I have a
bunch of 12V (or 10.8V, if you think they're lying ;-) batteries that
I keep charged, so they're always available. LiIons don't have a
significant self-discharge, so that's not an issue. IMO, if you have
trouble keeping cordless drill batteries charged, you probably
shouldn't use any cordless tools. Otherwise, they're great.
>

On 6/22/2016 2:22 PM, Michael wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 12:54:45 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>> On 6/22/2016 11:42 AM, Michael wrote:
>>> Friends, I know this is off-topic but this group has people who
>>> know things.
>>>
>>> I need to cut out a small square piece of plywood around a toilet
>>> that was water damaged. What's the perfect tool for this job?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>
>> A Fein Multimaster or a clone of that tool.
>>
>> https://fein.com/en_us/
>
> Leon, Derby and Whit3rd,
>
> It's a tight space so I could use a circular saw but I think the
> multi-master might be the better option because I can see so many
> uses for it as I fix stuff around the house.
>
> I have two questions about the multi-master: 1) I prefer corded power
> tools except for my drill. Is the multi-master like the drill in that
> you use it in so many ways that a cordless just makes more sense?

You probobably will not use it daily or as much as a drill. I look at
as the tool that do what no other tool can do and a real problem solver
with minimal destruction. Like Swingman I would go corded as batteries
will be a constant expense and likely will not have the charge you need
when you need it.


>
> 2) Is there a massive difference between the Fein and the DeWalt? Is
> it one of those tools where the extra 100 really makes all the
> difference?

I cannot answer that but probably not a whole lot. I would however
steer clear of brands that are not known for quality tools. Some
cheaper models scream, noisy, and do not hold the attachments securely.
Those are ok for limited use but are not usually a pleasure to use. I
would use one of those as a last resort.

I would look at DeWalt, Makita, Bosch, maybe even Dremel, basically
brands not exclusive to a particular bargain basement store.

If you can at all demo one I wold recommend that. While Fein may be a
bit to pricey for you most WoodCraft stores sell them and you can demo
them in the store.

I would look for corded, ease of changing attachments, and those that
have a way of securely holding the attachments so that they do not slip.

I bought my Fein before anyone else offered a clone and I would prefer
the latest tool-less model so that you don't have to keep up with that.

Now that there is competition Fein has dropped the price of their
$35~$65 blades and other brands are offered that will fit many different
brands tools.



>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>

On Sat, 2 Jul 2016 05:55:18 -0700 (PDT), Michael
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Saturday, July 2, 2016 at 7:37:51 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>> Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > Michael wrote:
>> >> On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 3:14:42 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>> >>> "Michael" wrote in message
>> >>> news:[email protected]...
>> >>>
>> >>>> Friends, I know this is off-topic but this group has people who know
>> >>>> things.
>> >>>> I need to cut out a small square piece of plywood around a toilet that was
>> >>>> water damaged. What's the perfect tool for this job?
>> >>> I'd use a circular saw set to just cut the plywood. Remove the nails/screws
>> >>> holding it to the joists first or risk breaking the teeth on the blade!
>> >>>
>> >>> If you have the finish flooring removed from the room you might be better
>> >>> off replacing a larger area of the sub-flooring... this as a patch that just
>> >>> spans the two joists near the toilet would tend to flex excessively whereas
>> >>> a piece tied into other joists spreads the load better and is more rigid.
>> >>> Also, make sure you orient the face grain on the plywood across the joists
>> >>> and not parallel to the joists.
>> >> John,
>> >>
>> >> Here's another question if you have a moment. If the flooring is
>> >> particle board, will that have to be replaced with plywood, or can you
>> >> nail tile backer to particle board.
>> >
>> > Am I overlooking something? Why would anyone want particle board in such
>> > a water-vulnerable location?
>> >
>> > Bill
>>
>>
>> Well, plywood will rot and swell too, but more than likely the sub for is
>> OSB, not particle board.
>
>I'm sorry. That's right. It's OSB. Is this insufficient for nailing down tile backer board?

I would say "no", but I wouldn't nail down backer board, at all. It
should be screwed every 6", or so. I put thinset between the plywood
and backer, too.

To answer your original question, I was told that if the joists are
16"OC, the floor should be at least 1-1/4 inches thick. I used 3/4"
plywood with 1/2" backer. It worked really well, though I did have to
extend the toilet flange, raise saddles, and cut the door
(fortunately, they were wood 6-panel doors).

On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 20:24:46 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 6/22/2016 7:09 PM, krw wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 14:58:01 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/22/2016 2:22 PM, Michael wrote:
>>>> It's a tight space so I could use a circular saw but I think the multi-master might be the better option because I can see so many uses for it as I fix stuff around the house.
>>>
>>> My vintage Fein is one of the most versatile tools I own, to the point
>>> it is always in my truck ... when you need it, nothing else will do.
>>>
>>>> I have two questions about the multi-master:
>>>> 1) I prefer corded power tools except for my drill. Is the multi-master like the drill in that you use it in so many ways that a cordless just makes more sense?
>>>
>>> Personally I would buy the corded version ... it is not a tool you use
>>> every day, and, as above, when I need it I don't want to be dealing with
>>> how much juice is left in a battery in a tool that has been sitting
>>> around since the last use.
>>
>> I'm not a tradesman but I disagree. I have both corded (Dremmel) and
>> cordless (Bosch) Fein clones. I never use the Dremmel. I have a
>> bunch of 12V (or 10.8V, if you think they're lying ;-) batteries that
>> I keep charged, so they're always available. LiIons don't have a
>> significant self-discharge, so that's not an issue. IMO, if you have
>> trouble keeping cordless drill batteries charged, you probably
>> shouldn't use any cordless tools. Otherwise, they're great.
>>>
>
>Nothing was said about cordless drill batteries, those get used almost
>daily. The multimaster, 20~30 times in 10 years.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. The battery technology is the
same, so self-discharge isn't an issue. In my case, my 12V drill,
driver, and impact driver, use the same batteries as the twitcher.
>
>And you do have a valid point, but in 15 years the Dremel will still be
>working but probably not the batteries you have in the Bosch now.

Probably not but I'll be out of a bunch of drills, too. The Dremel
will probably still be working because it never has. ;-)
>
>Nothing against cordless, but long term, cordless tends to need to be
>replaced because of obsolete batteries while the tool itself is still in
>good shape. If you buy a decent multitool the tool is likely to never
>need to be replaced unless you can't find batteries for it.

If I replaced the Dremel, it would probably be with a Fein. Their
price has dropped a *lot* and the package isn't a bad deal anymore.
That said, if there is a real choice of a cordless tool and corded,
I'll take the cordless every time.

>And unfortunately I don't believe that any one rebuilds Li-Ion which is
>more and more the battery being sold with new tools.

I believe you're right. Liability is a huge problem with LiIons.
Aftermarket has the problem in spades.

>Personally I am more inclined to buy cordless if I use it a lot, daily
>in the shop, "if" cordless is more convenient. But so far I have only
>bought cordless drills/impacts for the last 30 or so years.

I have cordless circular saws, as well. The little Makita paid for
itself when I resided our VT house. It could even be used to cut trim
on the ladder. I later bought the Dewalt but the batteries aren't
worth crap.
>
>In 1983 I bought a Makita right angle cordless, 7.2 volt. It was great
>and much like a multimaster it got me out of jams, but not a tool that I
>would use every day. I finally got rid of it, the chuck had not a spec
>of tarnish or rust on it but I could not justify replacing the battery
>after 29 years. My Festool drill has a right angle attachment that I
>use on occasion and I am glad that I have it. ;~)

I also have a RA Makita, somewhere. Hmm, I guess it is over 20 years
old. I've replaced the battery when I've had need of the saw (not for
the drill). They aren't all that expensive. I never really liked the
drill, though. It's kinda wimpy and slow. It did have its uses.

On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 3:14:42 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
> "Michael" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> >Friends, I know this is off-topic but this group has people who know
> >things.
>
> >I need to cut out a small square piece of plywood around a toilet that was
> >water damaged. What's the perfect tool for this job?
>
> I'd use a circular saw set to just cut the plywood. Remove the nails/screws
> holding it to the joists first or risk breaking the teeth on the blade!
>
> If you have the finish flooring removed from the room you might be better
> off replacing a larger area of the sub-flooring... this as a patch that just
> spans the two joists near the toilet would tend to flex excessively whereas
> a piece tied into other joists spreads the load better and is more rigid.
> Also, make sure you orient the face grain on the plywood across the joists
> and not parallel to the joists.

John,

Here's another question if you have a moment. If the flooring is particle board, will that have to be replaced with plywood, or can you nail tile backer to particle board. If it needs to be replaced with plywood, what is the minimum width? 1/2 inch?

Thanks!

Mike

On Saturday, June 25, 2016 at 9:57:39 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> On 6/24/2016 9:40 AM, Michael wrote:
> > On Thursday, June 23, 2016 at 4:56:44 PM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
> >> On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 09:42:23 -0700 (PDT)
> >> Michael <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I need to cut out a small square piece of plywood around a toilet
> >>> that was water damaged. What's the perfect tool for this job?
> >>
> >> water damage around a toilet sounds optimistic
> >>
> >> but i would use a thick blade in a skilsaw
> >>
> >> might want to wear a dust mask and gloves
> >>
> >>
> >> might find more work to do when you cut out the small square
> >
> > That is a concern, although we've left that bathroom unused for several months so whatever went on should be pretty dry by now. Still, you are right that this could be a much larger project than planned.
> >
> > I have another question about multi-tools. I tried posting this question before but I don't see it.
> >
> > I see that the Fein has a little fence that one case use for straight cuts.
>
> I am not aware of any fence, got a link?
>
> I did see a depth stop but not necessarily a fence to guide the cut.

That's my mistake. I was looking at this video and at the 1:50 mark or thereabouts I thought I saw a fence but it's probably a depth stop. Could it conceivably be used as a fence though?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7q6Au8fTLk

Mike

On 7/2/2016 11:07 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> Back in the day, tilers used to put down tar-paper on the wood subfloor,
> then poor a thin bed of mortar with chicken-wire as a base for the tile.
> When done properly, it worked great and lasted decades. Those
> installation are a real b!t@h to tear out, trust me. :-)

Mortar based demolition _always_ results in upcharge in my remodel bids ...

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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 09:42:23 -0700 (PDT)
Michael <[email protected]> wrote:

> I need to cut out a small square piece of plywood around a toilet
> that was water damaged. What's the perfect tool for this job?

water damage around a toilet sounds optimistic

but i would use a thick blade in a skilsaw

might want to wear a dust mask and gloves


might find more work to do when you cut out the small square

On 6/23/16 9:52 AM, John McCoy wrote:
> Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> The Dremel Saw Max is a potentially handy thing to have around, if
>> you're doing cuts best suited to the circular saw but have clearance
>> issues.
>
> I have one of those - it's essentially useless. If you
> think you need one, buy a 4" grinder instead, and a
> diamond wheel.
>
> John
>

I would disagree. I have one and it's one of the best purchased I've
made.
The thing cuts through tile like butter and works great against a
straightedge.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 6/23/16 11:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 6/23/2016 11:22 AM, krw wrote:
>> They were demoing the Fein at Woodcraft when I was in there a year or
>> so ago. It was a lot easier to handle than the Dremel or Bosch, ISTM.
>> Very little vibration.
>
> Yep.
>
> The vibration, and quieter operation, is what sets off the Fein from
> others I've used.
>
> Especially if you're prone to CTS. :(
>

Used my today on OSB and 2x8s in an attic to put in a fold down staircase.
I believe I posted an extension review on it, in here. Quietness, lack
of vibration, and the soft-start were all high praises from me.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 6/23/16 9:44 PM, krw wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 21:01:19 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 6/23/16 9:52 AM, John McCoy wrote:
>>> Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> The Dremel Saw Max is a potentially handy thing to have around, if
>>>> you're doing cuts best suited to the circular saw but have clearance
>>>> issues.
>>>
>>> I have one of those - it's essentially useless. If you
>>> think you need one, buy a 4" grinder instead, and a
>>> diamond wheel.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>
>> I would disagree. I have one and it's one of the best purchased I've
>> made.
>> The thing cuts through tile like butter and works great against a
>> straightedge.
>
> Floor or wall? What sort of blade?
>

I've used the diamond blade to cut back tile on a floor, against a
straight edge which worked very well. I also have a 4" grinder with a
diamond blade which which I'm fairly skillful as using to cut corners in
tile using just my hands. I find the depth stop and fence on the Saw
Max to be very useful and effective.

I've also used the drywall blade to cut a very straight lines through
drywall, using the shop-vac attachment which was as satisfactory as
capturing gypsum dust can possibly get.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 6/24/16 7:22 PM, krw wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 22:48:40 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 6/23/16 9:44 PM, krw wrote:

>>
>> I've used the diamond blade to cut back tile on a floor, against a
>> straight edge which worked very well. I also have a 4" grinder with a
>> diamond blade which which I'm fairly skillful as using to cut corners in
>> tile using just my hands. I find the depth stop and fence on the Saw
>> Max to be very useful and effective.
>
> Thanks. I have a wet saw but it doesn't do everything. I've been
> trying to figure out how to do more complicated cuts. I'll take a
> look.
>>

For tiling work, the wet saw is the work horse, but my 4-1/2" Snap-On
angle grinder with a dry cut diamond blade is the cats meow for cutting
out outlet box holes in the center of tiles and cement backer board.
-BR

Michael wrote:
> On Saturday, June 25, 2016 at 9:57:39 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>> On 6/24/2016 9:40 AM, Michael wrote:
>>> On Thursday, June 23, 2016 at 4:56:44 PM UTC-5, Electric Comet
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 09:42:23 -0700 (PDT)
>>>> Michael <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I need to cut out a small square piece of plywood around a toilet
>>>>> that was water damaged. What's the perfect tool for this job?
>>>>
>>>> water damage around a toilet sounds optimistic
>>>>
>>>> but i would use a thick blade in a skilsaw
>>>>
>>>> might want to wear a dust mask and gloves
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> might find more work to do when you cut out the small square
>>>
>>> That is a concern, although we've left that bathroom unused for
>>> several months so whatever went on should be pretty dry by now.
>>> Still, you are right that this could be a much larger project than
>>> planned.
>>>
>>> I have another question about multi-tools. I tried posting this
>>> question before but I don't see it.
>>>
>>> I see that the Fein has a little fence that one case use for
>>> straight cuts.
>>
>> I am not aware of any fence, got a link?
>>
>> I did see a depth stop but not necessarily a fence to guide the cut.
>
> That's my mistake. I was looking at this video and at the 1:50 mark
> or thereabouts I thought I saw a fence but it's probably a depth
> stop. Could it conceivably be used as a fence though?
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7q6Au8fTLk

Looks as if there is no reason it couldn't be used as a GUIDE for a clamped
on piece of wood, using the wood as a fence; basically, it would work just
like the shoe on a cut off saw, just smaller.

Michael wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 3:14:42 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>> "Michael" wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> Friends, I know this is off-topic but this group has people who know
>>> things.
>>> I need to cut out a small square piece of plywood around a toilet that was
>>> water damaged. What's the perfect tool for this job?
>> I'd use a circular saw set to just cut the plywood. Remove the nails/screws
>> holding it to the joists first or risk breaking the teeth on the blade!
>>
>> If you have the finish flooring removed from the room you might be better
>> off replacing a larger area of the sub-flooring... this as a patch that just
>> spans the two joists near the toilet would tend to flex excessively whereas
>> a piece tied into other joists spreads the load better and is more rigid.
>> Also, make sure you orient the face grain on the plywood across the joists
>> and not parallel to the joists.
> John,
>
> Here's another question if you have a moment. If the flooring is particle board, will that have to be replaced with plywood, or can you nail tile backer to particle board.

Am I overlooking something? Why would anyone want particle board in such
a water-vulnerable location?

Bill
> If it needs to be replaced with plywood, what is the minimum width? 1/2 inch?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mike

Leon wrote:
> Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Michael wrote:
>>> John,
>>>
>>> Here's another question if you have a moment. If the flooring is
>>> particle board, will that have to be replaced with plywood, or can you
>>> nail tile backer to particle board.
>> Am I overlooking something? Why would anyone want particle board in such
>> a water-vulnerable location?
>>
>> Bill
>
> Well, plywood will rot and swell too, but more than likely the sub for is
> OSB, not particle board.
>

Thanks. I was guessing that, but reading particle board.

Bill

On 7/2/16 9:27 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 7/2/2016 7:55 AM, Michael wrote:
>> On Saturday, July 2, 2016 at 7:37:51 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>>> Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Michael wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 3:14:42 PM UTC-5, John
>>>>> Grossbohlin wrote:
>>>>>> "Michael" wrote in message
>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
Friends, I know this is off-topic but this group has people who know
>>>>>>> things. I need to cut out a small square piece of plywood
>>>>>>> around a toilet that was water damaged. What's the
>>>>>>> perfect tool for this job?
>>>>>> I'd use a circular saw set to just cut the plywood. Remove
>>>>>> the nails/screws holding it to the joists first or risk
>>>>>> breaking the teeth on the blade!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you have the finish flooring removed from the room you
>>>>>> might be better off replacing a larger area of the
>>>>>> sub-flooring... this as a patch that just spans the two
>>>>>> joists near the toilet would tend to flex excessively
>>>>>> whereas a piece tied into other joists spreads the load
>>>>>> better and is more rigid. Also, make sure you orient the
>>>>>> face grain on the plywood across the joists and not
>>>>>> parallel to the joists.
>>>>> John,
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's another question if you have a moment. If the flooring
>>>>> is particle board, will that have to be replaced with
>>>>> plywood, or can you nail tile backer to particle board.
>>>>
>>>> Am I overlooking something? Why would anyone want particle
>>>> board in such a water-vulnerable location?
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, plywood will rot and swell too, but more than likely the
>>> sub for is OSB, not particle board.
>>
>> I'm sorry. That's right. It's OSB. Is this insufficient for
>> nailing down tile backer board?
>
> And I cannot answered your question with any authority. I am not
> sure if you would even use backer board on a floor.
>

If you lay tile down on wood, it will fail soon, especially in areas
that will be damp/wet like a bathroom. Wood expands and contracts at a
much higher rate than tile (yes, tile does, too) and cement. This will
eventually break the bond between the thinset and wood. When (not if)
water gets through the grout and under the thinset to the wood subfloor,
the subfloor with soak up the wood and expand, accelerating the failure.

Back in the day, tilers used to put down tar-paper on the wood subfloor,
then poor a thin bed of mortar with chicken-wire as a base for the tile.
When done properly, it worked great and lasted decades. Those
installation are a real b!t@h to tear out, trust me. :-) Cement board
replaced this process for most tilers. The cement soaks in the water
that gets under the tile, without expanding.

Schluter-DITRA underlayment is the best of all worlds in my opinion. It
can be put down straight on a wood subfloor without raising the overall
height of the floor very much, plus it allows for movement in a saggy
floor without cracking the tile or mortar base.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 7/2/16 12:15 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 7/2/2016 11:07 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> Back in the day, tilers used to put down tar-paper on the wood subfloor,
>> then poor a thin bed of mortar with chicken-wire as a base for the tile.
>> When done properly, it worked great and lasted decades. Those
>> installation are a real b!t@h to tear out, trust me. :-)
>
> Mortar based demolition _always_ results in upcharge in my remodel bids ...
>

I learned that once and never needed another lesson. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 07/02/2016 7:55 AM, Michael wrote:
...

> I'm sorry. That's right. It's OSB. Is this insufficient for nailing down tile backer board?
...

<http://www.jlconline.com/how-to/interiors/tiling-over-plywood-subfloors_o>

--

On 7/2/16 10:07 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

>
> Schluter-DITRA underlayment is the best of all worlds in my opinion. It
> can be put down straight on a wood subfloor without raising the overall
> height of the floor very much, plus it allows for movement in a saggy
> floor without cracking the tile or mortar base.
>
>


I fully agree. Ditra is fantastic. I use it under all my installs except
for cement backer board. It is pricey, but check online and buy the big
rolls if you have future tiling projects that will need it.
Tiling over a fresh concrete slab without some form of isolation
membrane is asking for future problems.

-BR

On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 22:48:40 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 6/23/16 9:44 PM, krw wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 21:01:19 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/23/16 9:52 AM, John McCoy wrote:
>>>> Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in
>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>
>>>>> The Dremel Saw Max is a potentially handy thing to have around, if
>>>>> you're doing cuts best suited to the circular saw but have clearance
>>>>> issues.
>>>>
>>>> I have one of those - it's essentially useless. If you
>>>> think you need one, buy a 4" grinder instead, and a
>>>> diamond wheel.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>
>>> I would disagree. I have one and it's one of the best purchased I've
>>> made.
>>> The thing cuts through tile like butter and works great against a
>>> straightedge.
>>
>> Floor or wall? What sort of blade?
>>
>
>I've used the diamond blade to cut back tile on a floor, against a
>straight edge which worked very well. I also have a 4" grinder with a
>diamond blade which which I'm fairly skillful as using to cut corners in
>tile using just my hands. I find the depth stop and fence on the Saw
>Max to be very useful and effective.

Thanks. I have a wet saw but it doesn't do everything. I've been
trying to figure out how to do more complicated cuts. I'll take a
look.
>
>I've also used the drywall blade to cut a very straight lines through
>drywall, using the shop-vac attachment which was as satisfactory as
>capturing gypsum dust can possibly get.

I haven't had to cut long lines through drywall. Interesting that
there is an attachment for it. I'll have to look into it more.

On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 21:01:19 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 6/23/16 9:52 AM, John McCoy wrote:
>> Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> The Dremel Saw Max is a potentially handy thing to have around, if
>>> you're doing cuts best suited to the circular saw but have clearance
>>> issues.
>>
>> I have one of those - it's essentially useless. If you
>> think you need one, buy a 4" grinder instead, and a
>> diamond wheel.
>>
>> John
>>
>
>I would disagree. I have one and it's one of the best purchased I've
>made.
>The thing cuts through tile like butter and works great against a
>straightedge.

Floor or wall? What sort of blade?

On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 07:14:06 -0500, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:

>krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 20:24:46 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/22/2016 7:09 PM, krw wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 14:58:01 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 6/22/2016 2:22 PM, Michael wrote:
>>>>>> It's a tight space so I could use a circular saw but I think the
>>>>>> multi-master might be the better option because I can see so many
>>>>>> uses for it as I fix stuff around the house.
>>>>>
>>>>> My vintage Fein is one of the most versatile tools I own, to the point
>>>>> it is always in my truck ... when you need it, nothing else will do.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I have two questions about the multi-master:
>>>>>> 1) I prefer corded power tools except for my drill. Is the
>>>>>> multi-master like the drill in that you use it in so many ways that a
>>>>>> cordless just makes more sense?
>>>>>
>>>>> Personally I would buy the corded version ... it is not a tool you use
>>>>> every day, and, as above, when I need it I don't want to be dealing with
>>>>> how much juice is left in a battery in a tool that has been sitting
>>>>> around since the last use.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not a tradesman but I disagree. I have both corded (Dremmel) and
>>>> cordless (Bosch) Fein clones. I never use the Dremmel. I have a
>>>> bunch of 12V (or 10.8V, if you think they're lying ;-) batteries that
>>>> I keep charged, so they're always available. LiIons don't have a
>>>> significant self-discharge, so that's not an issue. IMO, if you have
>>>> trouble keeping cordless drill batteries charged, you probably
>>>> shouldn't use any cordless tools. Otherwise, they're great.
>>>>>
>>>
>>> Nothing was said about cordless drill batteries, those get used almost
>>> daily. The multimaster, 20~30 times in 10 years.
>>
>> Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. The battery technology is the
>> same, so self-discharge isn't an issue. In my case, my 12V drill,
>> driver, and impact driver, use the same batteries as the twitcher.
>
>I'll agree that li-ion does hold its charge very well and for a long time.
>But you always have the day when the battery simply poops out in the case.
>I have a Bosch impact, 18 volt Li- ion. I seldom use it but it always had
>juice in the battery and I always tried to recharge it before putting it
>away for 6-9 months. Then one day I opened the case and the battery was no
>longer useable. Fortunately I got a new generic from Batteries Plus for
>about $25. Like the original the amp rating was 1.2. IIRC.
>
I have eight or ten batteries for it (and the small drivers and
drill). One battery had a very short life but the others are ~5 years
old. We'll see.

>>> And you do have a valid point, but in 15 years the Dremel will still be
>>> working but probably not the batteries you have in the Bosch now.
>>
>> Probably not but I'll be out of a bunch of drills, too. The Dremel
>> will probably still be working because it never has. ;-)
>
>Ohhhhhh. :-). I thought Drexel might be better than the HF version.

I meant that it sits in its case because I use the Bosch. It's like
new. ;-)
>
>>>
>>> Nothing against cordless, but long term, cordless tends to need to be
>>> replaced because of obsolete batteries while the tool itself is still in
>>> good shape. If you buy a decent multitool the tool is likely to never
>>> need to be replaced unless you can't find batteries for it.
>>
>> If I replaced the Dremel, it would probably be with a Fein. Their
>> price has dropped a *lot* and the package isn't a bad deal anymore.
>> That said, if there is a real choice of a cordless tool and corded,
>> I'll take the cordless every time.
>
>Yeah the Fein is really a decent deal these days. I believe I paid in the
>$300+ range for mine many years ago. Any I would love to have the tool-less
>version when changing attachments on simply readjusting the angle of an
>attachment.

They were demoing the Fein at Woodcraft when I was in there a year or
so ago. It was a lot easier to handle than the Dremel or Bosch, ISTM.
Very little vibration.
>
>>
>>> And unfortunately I don't believe that any one rebuilds Li-Ion which is
>>> more and more the battery being sold with new tools.
>>
>> I believe you're right. Liability is a huge problem with LiIons.
>> Aftermarket has the problem in spades.
>
>From what I understand it is very important to test and match the cells
>which I understand is time consuming. A handful of brand new Li-ion cells
>do not necessarily work well together.

LiIon has a habit of catching fire if not treated well. Most small
companies don't want to get into that.
>>
>>> Personally I am more inclined to buy cordless if I use it a lot, daily
>>> in the shop, "if" cordless is more convenient. But so far I have only
>>> bought cordless drills/impacts for the last 30 or so years.
>>
>> I have cordless circular saws, as well. The little Makita paid for
>> itself when I resided our VT house. It could even be used to cut trim
>> on the ladder. I later bought the Dewalt but the batteries aren't
>> worth crap.
>
>
>>>
>>> In 1983 I bought a Makita right angle cordless, 7.2 volt. It was great
>>> and much like a multimaster it got me out of jams, but not a tool that I
>>> would use every day. I finally got rid of it, the chuck had not a spec
>>> of tarnish or rust on it but I could not justify replacing the battery
>>> after 29 years. My Festool drill has a right angle attachment that I
>>> use on occasion and I am glad that I have it. ;~)
>>
>> I also have a RA Makita, somewhere. Hmm, I guess it is over 20 years
>> old. I've replaced the battery when I've had need of the saw (not for
>> the drill). They aren't all that expensive. I never really liked the
>> drill, though. It's kinda wimpy and slow. It did have its uses.
>>
>>
>Yeah :-) my Mikita RA drill was wimpy too. And single speed and no clutch
>so it was only good for drilling ut to about 1/4" diameter. As little as
>I used it I would recharge the battery every time I pulled it out. Oddly
>the battery could be recharged enough to drill a hole or two for 20+ years.
>
>
>

On 6/22/2016 11:42 AM, Michael wrote:
> Friends, I know this is off-topic but this group has people who know things.
>
> I need to cut out a small square piece of plywood around a toilet that was water damaged. What's the perfect tool for this job?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>

A Fein Multimaster or a clone of that tool.

https://fein.com/en_us/

On 6/22/2016 2:22 PM, Michael wrote:
> It's a tight space so I could use a circular saw but I think the multi-master might be the better option because I can see so many uses for it as I fix stuff around the house.

My vintage Fein is one of the most versatile tools I own, to the point
it is always in my truck ... when you need it, nothing else will do.

> I have two questions about the multi-master:
> 1) I prefer corded power tools except for my drill. Is the multi-master like the drill in that you use it in so many ways that a cordless just makes more sense?

Personally I would buy the corded version ... it is not a tool you use
every day, and, as above, when I need it I don't want to be dealing with
how much juice is left in a battery in a tool that has been sitting
around since the last use.

> 2) Is there a massive difference between the Fein and the DeWalt? Is it one of those tools where the extra 100 really makes all the difference?

My helper/working buddy, tired of always going to get _my_ Fein out of
_my_ truck, bought the Home Depot Rigid model for himself a few months
back. So far so good, for $99.

A price which, makes it easy to replace when it grows legs on a job site.

If I had to replace the Fein, I would probably go with the Bosch or DeWalt.

Also know a couple of tradesman who are using the HF model ... for
limited use, might be all you need.

Basically, let your budget and intended use (and where you will use it)
be the deciding factor.

--
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