sd

sandman

16/12/2004 1:16 PM

Bisquit/plate joiner

I had a Lamello. Somebody lifted it from a job site a few years back.
Some projects I am planning will use biscuits, a fastening method I like
(only for some things and in this case I can't get close enough to use a
slotcutter in a router) dammit, I just visited Lamello's website and
they have this flush milling machine that is giving me a severe fit of
the 'wanna's'. http://www.lamello.com/english/cantex_e.htm

I digress.

The Top20 Lamello is stupid money for the use it is going to get. The
Classic Lamello (like the one that went missing) is still over 300
smackeroonies U$...still too rich for my blood.
I Googled this question, but most forums talk about pocket hole vs
plates.
Soooo... this what I have so far:
Ryobi.. way too much wobble in the sled.
Porter Cable.. The fence is more complicated than it needs to be.
Freud.. straight forward, but ...... you know.. not a Lamello...dammit..
I am NOT buying a Lamello...
Okay.. so what else is out there?
What have you fine gentlemen (and maybe a few ladies) used and liked?
Under U$ 300.00?... make that 200



Thanks in advance, I remain
sincerely yours,

Rob

Common sense is not common
(Voltaire)



...how close is that new red of the Lamello colour to my Milwaukee
tools??
would it clash?


This topic has 24 replies

GO

"Greg O"

in reply to sandman on 16/12/2004 1:16 PM

19/12/2004 3:00 PM


"sandman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I had a Lamello. Somebody lifted it from a job site a few years back.
> Some projects I am planning will use biscuits, a fastening method I like
> (only for some things and in this case I can't get close enough to use a
> slotcutter in a router) dammit, I just visited Lamello's website and
> they have this flush milling machine that is giving me a severe fit of
> the 'wanna's'. http://www.lamello.com/english/cantex_e.htm
>
> I digress.
>
> The Top20 Lamello is stupid money for the use it is going to get. The
> Classic Lamello (like the one that went missing) is still over 300
> smackeroonies U$...still too rich for my blood.
> I Googled this question, but most forums talk about pocket hole vs
> plates.
> Soooo... this what I have so far:
> Ryobi.. way too much wobble in the sled.
> Porter Cable.. The fence is more complicated than it needs to be.
>


I have the PC, no problems with the fence. You are the first to mention any,
Other than the goofy set back on the Type 2.
Make sure the one you get is the Type1 or Type3.
Greg

Sb

"SonomaProducts.com"

in reply to sandman on 16/12/2004 1:16 PM

16/12/2004 11:05 AM

I've only used the Dewalt and the PC and like the PC a lot more (and I
typicially don't like PC). Worse part is, I own the Dewalt and use the
PC in my buddies shop.

Sb

"SonomaProducts.com"

in reply to sandman on 16/12/2004 1:16 PM

16/12/2004 10:40 AM

I've only used the Dewalt and the PC and like the PC a lot more (and I
typicially don't like PC). Worse part is, I own the Dewalt and use the
PC in my buddies shop.

Sb

"SonomaProducts.com"

in reply to sandman on 16/12/2004 1:16 PM

16/12/2004 10:43 AM

I've only used Dewalt and PC and I like the PC a lot more than the
Dewalt, and I typically don't like PC. The worse part is that I own the
Dewalt but only use the PC in my buddies shop.

mm

mare*Remove*All*0f*This*I*Hate*Spammers*@mac.invalid.com (mare)

in reply to sandman on 16/12/2004 1:16 PM

16/12/2004 5:28 PM

toller <[email protected]> wrote:

> Nothing complicated about the PC fence; can't imagine what you are referring
> to.
> Anyhow, I think their idea of putting the handle on the fence is great. On
> other machines I ignore the handle hand hold the fence.

I have the DeWalt and my next one would be either the Lamello or the PC.
The DeWalt is OK but not always very precise, because the fence is quite
flimsy. I usually don't use the fence but the base but sometimes you
have to. I'm a cookie monster: I use hundreds of biscuits a month.

--
mare

JW

"Joe Wilding"

in reply to sandman on 16/12/2004 1:16 PM

16/12/2004 1:15 PM

I have had the PC biscuit jointer for a little over a year now. I used to
have the snobbish attitude that "real woodworkers don't need bisucits".
While I still stand by this theory, I absolutely love my biscuit jointer and
use it all the time.

I looked at various models quite a bit before I bought, but decided the PC
had the best features for the money. One of the best things about it is the
2" face frame cutter that comes with it for using really small biscuits. I
use this feature quite a bit for small projects.

Rockler has a good sale on this model at the moment as well. (If it hasn't
expired yet.)


--
Joe in Denver
my woodworking website:
http://www.the-wildings.com/shop/


"sandman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I had a Lamello. Somebody lifted it from a job site a few years back.
> Some projects I am planning will use biscuits, a fastening method I like
> (only for some things and in this case I can't get close enough to use a
> slotcutter in a router) dammit, I just visited Lamello's website and
> they have this flush milling machine that is giving me a severe fit of
> the 'wanna's'. http://www.lamello.com/english/cantex_e.htm
>
> I digress.
>
> The Top20 Lamello is stupid money for the use it is going to get. The
> Classic Lamello (like the one that went missing) is still over 300
> smackeroonies U$...still too rich for my blood.
> I Googled this question, but most forums talk about pocket hole vs
> plates.
> Soooo... this what I have so far:
> Ryobi.. way too much wobble in the sled.
> Porter Cable.. The fence is more complicated than it needs to be.
> Freud.. straight forward, but ...... you know.. not a Lamello...dammit..
> I am NOT buying a Lamello...
> Okay.. so what else is out there?
> What have you fine gentlemen (and maybe a few ladies) used and liked?
> Under U$ 300.00?... make that 200
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance, I remain
> sincerely yours,
>
> Rob
>
> Common sense is not common
> (Voltaire)
>
>
>
> ...how close is that new red of the Lamello colour to my Milwaukee
> tools??
> would it clash?

md

mac davis

in reply to sandman on 16/12/2004 1:16 PM

21/12/2004 4:54 PM

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 07:50:34 +1300, Barry Lennox
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:16:36 -0500, sandman <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>I had a Lamello. Somebody lifted it from a job site a few years back.
>>Some projects I am planning will use biscuits, a fastening method I like
>>(only for some things and in this case I can't get close enough to use a
>>slotcutter in a router) dammit, I just visited Lamello's website and
>>they have this flush milling machine that is giving me a severe fit of
>>the 'wanna's'. http://www.lamello.com/english/cantex_e.htm
>>
>>I digress.
>>
>>The Top20 Lamello is stupid money for the use it is going to get. The
>>Classic Lamello (like the one that went missing) is still over 300
>>smackeroonies U$...still too rich for my blood.
>>I Googled this question, but most forums talk about pocket hole vs
>>plates.
>>Soooo... this what I have so far:
>>Ryobi.. way too much wobble in the sled.
>>Porter Cable.. The fence is more complicated than it needs to be.
>>Freud.. straight forward, but ...... you know.. not a Lamello...dammit..
>>I am NOT buying a Lamello...
>>Okay.. so what else is out there?
>
>I looked and read reviews for a while, and had settled on either the
>PC, DeWalt or Makita, then went to the "Big E" WW show in Springfield
>MA. Tried them all, the PC was a bit steep, and there was nothing much
>to choose between the yellow DeWalt and the blue Makita, but the
>latter was a few $$ cheaper, so went with it. That was in 2000, About
>a thousand biscuits later, I'm still very happy with the Makita. But
>the DeWalt was a brighter color!
>
>Barry Lennox

yep.. I have the Craftsman, same as dewalt but (IMHO) better handle...
downside is that it's black, which isn't as easy to find in a
cluttered shop as that DeWalt yellow..

UA

Unisaw A100

in reply to sandman on 16/12/2004 1:16 PM

16/12/2004 5:35 PM

Hey Rob, If your wants and desires lean towards a
Porter-Cable ping me on the back channel. St. Soozan gave
me a Classic C2 for my birthday and the P-C has been in
hibernation ever since.

Oh! And I feel your pain.

UA100
[email protected]

Cc

"CW"

in reply to sandman on 16/12/2004 1:16 PM

19/12/2004 10:03 PM

Just bought a Dewalt yesterday. Made two cuts so far.

"Dick Snyder" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have the Freud and I am quite happy with it.
> "sandman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >I had a Lamello. Somebody lifted it from a job site a few years back.
> > Some projects I am planning will use biscuits, a fastening method I like
> > (only for some things and in this case I can't get close enough to use a
> > slotcutter in a router) dammit, I just visited Lamello's website and
> > they have this flush milling machine that is giving me a severe fit of
> > the 'wanna's'. http://www.lamello.com/english/cantex_e.htm
> >
> > I digress.
> >
> > The Top20 Lamello is stupid money for the use it is going to get. The
> > Classic Lamello (like the one that went missing) is still over 300
> > smackeroonies U$...still too rich for my blood.
> > I Googled this question, but most forums talk about pocket hole vs
> > plates.
> > Soooo... this what I have so far:
> > Ryobi.. way too much wobble in the sled.
> > Porter Cable.. The fence is more complicated than it needs to be.
> > Freud.. straight forward, but ...... you know.. not a Lamello...dammit..
> > I am NOT buying a Lamello...
> > Okay.. so what else is out there?
> > What have you fine gentlemen (and maybe a few ladies) used and liked?
> > Under U$ 300.00?... make that 200
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks in advance, I remain
> > sincerely yours,
> >
> > Rob
> >
> > Common sense is not common
> > (Voltaire)
> >
> >
> >
> > ...how close is that new red of the Lamello colour to my Milwaukee
> > tools??
> > would it clash?
>
>

Lr

"Leon"

in reply to sandman on 16/12/2004 1:16 PM

16/12/2004 7:05 PM


"sandman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Freud.. straight forward, but ...... you know.. not a Lamello...dammit..
> I am NOT buying a Lamello...
> Okay.. so what else is out there?
> What have you fine gentlemen (and maybe a few ladies) used and liked?
> Under U$ 300.00?... make that 200


I have had both PC's the later one with the "complicated" fence is really a
no brainer and much more versatile than the like competition. However
probably none are to be compared to the Lamello. I would not let the fence
on the PC scare me away.

Uu

"Upscale"

in reply to sandman on 16/12/2004 1:16 PM

19/12/2004 12:43 PM

"Dick Snyder" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> I have the Freud and I am quite happy with it.

I've got a Freud too. It's over ten years old and always kind of noisy and
dusty, but it's worked fine for what I've needed it to do. My only minor
regret is that it doesn't have a dust collection bag. Suppose I might be
able to adapt something, but for the few times I use the thing, it's not
worth the effort.

DS

"Dick Snyder"

in reply to sandman on 16/12/2004 1:16 PM

19/12/2004 12:32 PM

I have the Freud and I am quite happy with it.
"sandman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I had a Lamello. Somebody lifted it from a job site a few years back.
> Some projects I am planning will use biscuits, a fastening method I like
> (only for some things and in this case I can't get close enough to use a
> slotcutter in a router) dammit, I just visited Lamello's website and
> they have this flush milling machine that is giving me a severe fit of
> the 'wanna's'. http://www.lamello.com/english/cantex_e.htm
>
> I digress.
>
> The Top20 Lamello is stupid money for the use it is going to get. The
> Classic Lamello (like the one that went missing) is still over 300
> smackeroonies U$...still too rich for my blood.
> I Googled this question, but most forums talk about pocket hole vs
> plates.
> Soooo... this what I have so far:
> Ryobi.. way too much wobble in the sled.
> Porter Cable.. The fence is more complicated than it needs to be.
> Freud.. straight forward, but ...... you know.. not a Lamello...dammit..
> I am NOT buying a Lamello...
> Okay.. so what else is out there?
> What have you fine gentlemen (and maybe a few ladies) used and liked?
> Under U$ 300.00?... make that 200
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance, I remain
> sincerely yours,
>
> Rob
>
> Common sense is not common
> (Voltaire)
>
>
>
> ...how close is that new red of the Lamello colour to my Milwaukee
> tools??
> would it clash?

tt

"toller"

in reply to sandman on 16/12/2004 1:16 PM

16/12/2004 6:45 PM

Nothing complicated about the PC fence; can't imagine what you are referring
to.
Anyhow, I think their idea of putting the handle on the fence is great. On
other machines I ignore the handle hand hold the fence.

Jm

"J"

in reply to sandman on 16/12/2004 1:16 PM

16/12/2004 10:44 AM


"sandman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:design-
> I digress.
>
> The Top20 Lamello is stupid money for the use it is going to get. The
> Classic Lamello (like the one that went missing) is still over 300
> smackeroonies U$...still too rich for my blood.
> I Googled this question, but most forums talk about pocket hole vs
> plates.
> Soooo... this what I have so far:
> Ryobi.. way too much wobble in the sled.
> Porter Cable.. The fence is more complicated than it needs to be.


I have one. I haven't had difficulty dealing with the fence.

-j

Br

Ba r r y

in reply to sandman on 16/12/2004 1:16 PM

16/12/2004 11:11 PM

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 22:27:25 GMT, "Chuck Hoffman"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Hmm. A biscuit joiner will probably be one of my next two or three
>acquisitions so I've been watching the discussions carefully. This one, of
>course, leans toward Porter Cable. The thread last week seemed to favor the
>DeWalt 682.
>
>I'm confused.

The DeWalt has never done me wrong.

However, the PC does the FF biscuit, the DeWalt doesn't.

Barry

mn

"mark"

in reply to sandman on 16/12/2004 1:16 PM

19/12/2004 7:01 PM


"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Dick Snyder" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> I have the Freud and I am quite happy with it.
>
> I've got a Freud too. It's over ten years old and always kind of noisy and
> dusty, but it's worked fine for what I've needed it to do. My only minor
> regret is that it doesn't have a dust collection bag. Suppose I might be
> able to adapt something, but for the few times I use the thing, it's not
> worth the effort.
>

I have the freud also. It does sound like a coffee can full of marbles when
it's running, but at the time, it was the only cost effective option. The
dewalt looks pretty nice for the money.

BL

Barry Lennox

in reply to sandman on 16/12/2004 1:16 PM

21/12/2004 7:50 AM

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:16:36 -0500, sandman <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I had a Lamello. Somebody lifted it from a job site a few years back.
>Some projects I am planning will use biscuits, a fastening method I like
>(only for some things and in this case I can't get close enough to use a
>slotcutter in a router) dammit, I just visited Lamello's website and
>they have this flush milling machine that is giving me a severe fit of
>the 'wanna's'. http://www.lamello.com/english/cantex_e.htm
>
>I digress.
>
>The Top20 Lamello is stupid money for the use it is going to get. The
>Classic Lamello (like the one that went missing) is still over 300
>smackeroonies U$...still too rich for my blood.
>I Googled this question, but most forums talk about pocket hole vs
>plates.
>Soooo... this what I have so far:
>Ryobi.. way too much wobble in the sled.
>Porter Cable.. The fence is more complicated than it needs to be.
>Freud.. straight forward, but ...... you know.. not a Lamello...dammit..
>I am NOT buying a Lamello...
>Okay.. so what else is out there?

I looked and read reviews for a while, and had settled on either the
PC, DeWalt or Makita, then went to the "Big E" WW show in Springfield
MA. Tried them all, the PC was a bit steep, and there was nothing much
to choose between the yellow DeWalt and the blue Makita, but the
latter was a few $$ cheaper, so went with it. That was in 2000, About
a thousand biscuits later, I'm still very happy with the Makita. But
the DeWalt was a brighter color!

Barry Lennox

UC

"U-CDK_CHARLES\\Charles" <"Charles Krug"@aol.com>

in reply to sandman on 16/12/2004 1:16 PM

17/12/2004 4:17 PM

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 00:33:25 GMT, mac davis <[email protected]>
wrote:
> I've only used the craftsman/dewalt (we won't count the $40 HF that I
> bought to see if I liked biscuits) but it's been very good..
>
> I like the weight and feel of it, and it seems accurate..
>
> One of the features that I wanted and like a lot is the rack & pinion
> adjustment on the fence..

I just bought the PC with the $30 rebate from the Borg.

The FF biscuit was an inticement, the rebate the clincher.

It seems to take and hold settings accurately. I've never used Brand L,
but for $700 dollars it better chill beer and walk the dog.

CH

"Chuck Hoffman"

in reply to sandman on 16/12/2004 1:16 PM

16/12/2004 10:27 PM

Hmm. A biscuit joiner will probably be one of my next two or three
acquisitions so I've been watching the discussions carefully. This one, of
course, leans toward Porter Cable. The thread last week seemed to favor the
DeWalt 682.

I'm confused.

"sandman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I had a Lamello. Somebody lifted it from a job site a few years back.
> Some projects I am planning will use biscuits, a fastening method I like
> (only for some things and in this case I can't get close enough to use a
> slotcutter in a router) dammit, I just visited Lamello's website and
> they have this flush milling machine that is giving me a severe fit of
> the 'wanna's'. http://www.lamello.com/english/cantex_e.htm
>
> I digress.
>
> The Top20 Lamello is stupid money for the use it is going to get. The
> Classic Lamello (like the one that went missing) is still over 300
> smackeroonies U$...still too rich for my blood.
> I Googled this question, but most forums talk about pocket hole vs
> plates.
> Soooo... this what I have so far:
> Ryobi.. way too much wobble in the sled.
> Porter Cable.. The fence is more complicated than it needs to be.
> Freud.. straight forward, but ...... you know.. not a Lamello...dammit..
> I am NOT buying a Lamello...
> Okay.. so what else is out there?
> What have you fine gentlemen (and maybe a few ladies) used and liked?
> Under U$ 300.00?... make that 200
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance, I remain
> sincerely yours,
>
> Rob
>
> Common sense is not common
> (Voltaire)
>
>
>
> ...how close is that new red of the Lamello colour to my Milwaukee
> tools??
> would it clash?

PR

Patrick R. Kane

in reply to sandman on 16/12/2004 1:16 PM

18/12/2004 11:38 PM

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:17:17 GMT, "U-CDK_CHARLES\\Charles" <"Charles
Krug"@aol.com> wrote:

>I just bought the PC with the $30 rebate from the Borg.

The Porter-Cable 557 Plate Joiner is listed on the Lowe's web site for
$147.20.

http://www.lowes.com/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=61545-000041735-557

I went to Home Depot today and they matched the price. After tax and
rebate, it will cost me $128.

md

mac davis

in reply to sandman on 16/12/2004 1:16 PM

17/12/2004 12:33 AM

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:16:36 -0500, sandman <[email protected]>
wrote:

<snip>
>Soooo... this what I have so far:
>Ryobi.. way too much wobble in the sled.
>Porter Cable.. The fence is more complicated than it needs to be.
>Freud.. straight forward, but ...... you know.. not a Lamello...dammit..
>I am NOT buying a Lamello...
>Okay.. so what else is out there?
>What have you fine gentlemen (and maybe a few ladies) used and liked?
>Under U$ 300.00?... make that 200
>
>
>
>Thanks in advance, I remain
>sincerely yours,
>
>Rob
>
I've only used the craftsman/dewalt (we won't count the $40 HF that I
bought to see if I liked biscuits) but it's been very good..

I like the weight and feel of it, and it seems accurate..

One of the features that I wanted and like a lot is the rack & pinion
adjustment on the fence..

BG

Bob G.

in reply to sandman on 16/12/2004 1:16 PM

21/12/2004 6:21 PM


>
>yep.. I have the Craftsman, same as dewalt but (IMHO) better handle...
>downside is that it's black, which isn't as easy to find in a
>cluttered shop as that DeWalt yellow..

Cans od Spray paint are not that expensive.....

My tools are ALL blue....and you bet youyr a$$ that I check out both
my sons shops every single time I visit,...... ANTHING BLUE goes right
into my truck...

Bob Griffiths

md

mac davis

in reply to sandman on 16/12/2004 1:16 PM

17/12/2004 8:25 AM

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 23:37:59 GMT, "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:

>get a Lamaliemo.

If you mean "Lamello", he started his post by saying that he had one
and it was ripped off..

>
>
>"Chuck Hoffman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Hmm. A biscuit joiner will probably be one of my next two or three
>> acquisitions so I've been watching the discussions carefully. This one,
>of
>> course, leans toward Porter Cable. The thread last week seemed to favor
>the
>> DeWalt 682.
>>
>> I'm confused.
>>
>> "sandman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > I had a Lamello. Somebody lifted it from a job site a few years back.
>> > Some projects I am planning will use biscuits, a fastening method I like
>> > (only for some things and in this case I can't get close enough to use a
>> > slotcutter in a router) dammit, I just visited Lamello's website and
>> > they have this flush milling machine that is giving me a severe fit of
>> > the 'wanna's'. http://www.lamello.com/english/cantex_e.htm
>> >
>> > I digress.
>> >
>> > The Top20 Lamello is stupid money for the use it is going to get. The
>> > Classic Lamello (like the one that went missing) is still over 300
>> > smackeroonies U$...still too rich for my blood.
>> > I Googled this question, but most forums talk about pocket hole vs
>> > plates.
>> > Soooo... this what I have so far:
>> > Ryobi.. way too much wobble in the sled.
>> > Porter Cable.. The fence is more complicated than it needs to be.
>> > Freud.. straight forward, but ...... you know.. not a Lamello...dammit..
>> > I am NOT buying a Lamello...
>> > Okay.. so what else is out there?
>> > What have you fine gentlemen (and maybe a few ladies) used and liked?
>> > Under U$ 300.00?... make that 200
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Thanks in advance, I remain
>> > sincerely yours,
>> >
>> > Rob
>> >
>> > Common sense is not common
>> > (Voltaire)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ...how close is that new red of the Lamello colour to my Milwaukee
>> > tools??
>> > would it clash?
>>
>>
>

Bb

"Bob"

in reply to sandman on 16/12/2004 1:16 PM

16/12/2004 11:37 PM

get a Lamaliemo.


"Chuck Hoffman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hmm. A biscuit joiner will probably be one of my next two or three
> acquisitions so I've been watching the discussions carefully. This one,
of
> course, leans toward Porter Cable. The thread last week seemed to favor
the
> DeWalt 682.
>
> I'm confused.
>
> "sandman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I had a Lamello. Somebody lifted it from a job site a few years back.
> > Some projects I am planning will use biscuits, a fastening method I like
> > (only for some things and in this case I can't get close enough to use a
> > slotcutter in a router) dammit, I just visited Lamello's website and
> > they have this flush milling machine that is giving me a severe fit of
> > the 'wanna's'. http://www.lamello.com/english/cantex_e.htm
> >
> > I digress.
> >
> > The Top20 Lamello is stupid money for the use it is going to get. The
> > Classic Lamello (like the one that went missing) is still over 300
> > smackeroonies U$...still too rich for my blood.
> > I Googled this question, but most forums talk about pocket hole vs
> > plates.
> > Soooo... this what I have so far:
> > Ryobi.. way too much wobble in the sled.
> > Porter Cable.. The fence is more complicated than it needs to be.
> > Freud.. straight forward, but ...... you know.. not a Lamello...dammit..
> > I am NOT buying a Lamello...
> > Okay.. so what else is out there?
> > What have you fine gentlemen (and maybe a few ladies) used and liked?
> > Under U$ 300.00?... make that 200
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks in advance, I remain
> > sincerely yours,
> >
> > Rob
> >
> > Common sense is not common
> > (Voltaire)
> >
> >
> >
> > ...how close is that new red of the Lamello colour to my Milwaukee
> > tools??
> > would it clash?
>
>


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