Jointing On A Router Table - Can't Keep Even Pressure

On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 3:10:56 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> I'm trying to joint some 1 x 8 poplar on my router table so I can glue up
> a panel. Each piece is 36" long. I have the out-feed fence 1/16" proud of
> the in-feed fence.
>
> I understand that you are supposed to keep pressure on the out-feed fence
> but I can't seem to keep even pressure as I move the board along. At 36"
> long I have to move my hands and when I do, I get a bump in the jointed
> edge. I tried to clamp 2 feather boards to the table on the out-feed side,
> but I'm still getting 2-3 bumps on the jointed edge because of hand
> movement.
>
> Neither fence nor the table is long enough to use push paddles for the
> entire 36". Is that part of the problem?
>
> Is there any way to get rid of the bumps so I can do a gap free glue-up?

I have had good results clamping an aluminum straight edge to the top of the board and running a router along the side with a longish bit. I don't think I'd want to try using the router table for this purpose.

Best of luck.

On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 5:31:12 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:

>
> When jointing on a router table, the fences are *supposed* to be mis-aligned.

Correct!

> The out-feed fence is supposed to be about 1/16" closer to the operator than
> the in-feed fence.

Correct!

> The bit is then aligned flush with the face of the out-feed
> fence.

Correct!

I'm suspecting the two fences, outfeed and infeed, are not parallel, despite their being offset. They are not exactly coplanar. They need to be offset and they also need to be perfectly coplanar.

I suspect your hand movement is giving you a misjudged idea of why you are having the bump. It's not your hand movement that's the (main, if at all) problem. Check to make sure your fences are coplanar, despite their being offset.

Sonny

On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 7:38:29 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> On 1/13/2018 5:37 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 5:55:47 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
> >> On 1/13/2018 4:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>> I'm trying to joint some 1 x 8 poplar on my router table so I can glue up
> >>> a panel. Each piece is 36" long. I have the out-feed fence 1/16" proud of
> >>> the in-feed fence.
> >>>
> >>> I understand that you are supposed to keep pressure on the out-feed fence
> >>> but I can't seem to keep even pressure as I move the board along. At 36"
> >>> long I have to move my hands and when I do, I get a bump in the jointed
> >>> edge. I tried to clamp 2 feather boards to the table on the out-feed side,
> >>> but I'm still getting 2-3 bumps on the jointed edge because of hand
> >>> movement.
> >>>
> >>> Neither fence nor the table is long enough to use push paddles for the
> >>> entire 36". Is that part of the problem?
> >>>
> >>> Is there any way to get rid of the bumps so I can do a gap free glue-up?
> >>>
> >> I have not joined on a router, but frequently use the router to create
> >> profiles on picture frames. I have found that I get the best results
> >> using feather boards on the in fed and out feed ends of the router.
> >> This then keeps the piece firmly against the fence on both sides to the
> >> bit for the length of the piece. With the fence I only have to keep the
> >> piece flat against the table, which I fine easier that trying to keep it
> >> against the fence and the table. Without the feather board I find the I
> >> tend to get waves in the route.
> >>
> >> The router table is a Sears router table to which I attache a standard
> >> router. The fence is only about 18". I use a one piece fence with an
> >> opening for the bit. I have had good results using this technique with
> >> frames as long as 40 inches.
> >>
> >> I suspect that the same technique may work when joining.
> >>
> >
> > Just FYI...It's jointing, not joining.
>
> I think it is joining.

I'm pretty sure it's jointing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jointer
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1&p=41801


>
> >
> > When jointing on a router table, you don't want pressure on the in-feed
> > fence.
>
> Well, yes you do, until you have enough on the out feed side to apply
> pressure to and not both at the same time.

Right. My problem is that with a 36" board, there is more time spent on
the out-feed side than the in-feed side. What is your definition of "enough"
on the out feed side? If I switch to putting pressure on the out-feed fence
after 12" or even 18" I still have to move my hands at least once or I'll
run out of fence or table from a "hand position" perspective. That's when
my bump occurs.

https://i.imgur.com/hjSOHrP.jpg


>
> All pressure should be on the out-feed fence which is supposed
> > to be proud of the in-feed fence and flush with the cutting surface of
> > the bit. See here:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6nql7mlSOo
> >
>
> He acknowledges my comment above, pressure on the in feed to begin.

No argument there. I'll agree that I wasn't clear when I talked about
"no pressure on the in-feed fence". Obviously, you need pressure on the
in_feed fence at the start of the feed.

On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 7:04:56 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 5:42:02 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 6:07:52 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
> > > On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 3:10:56 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > > > I'm trying to joint some 1 x 8 poplar on my router table so I can glue up
> > > > a panel. Each piece is 36" long. I have the out-feed fence 1/16" proud of
> > > > the in-feed fence.
> > > >
> > > > I understand that you are supposed to keep pressure on the out-feed fence
> > > > but I can't seem to keep even pressure as I move the board along. At 36"
> > > > long I have to move my hands and when I do, I get a bump in the jointed
> > > > edge. I tried to clamp 2 feather boards to the table on the out-feed side,
> > > > but I'm still getting 2-3 bumps on the jointed edge because of hand
> > > > movement.
> > > >
> > > > Neither fence nor the table is long enough to use push paddles for the
> > > > entire 36". Is that part of the problem?
> > > >
> > > > Is there any way to get rid of the bumps so I can do a gap free glue-up?
> > >
> > > I have had good results clamping an aluminum straight edge to the top of the board and running a router along the side with a longish bit. I don't think I'd want to try using the router table for this purpose.
> > >
> > > Best of luck.
> >
> > That is an option and may be my next step. However, jointing on a router
> > table is fairly common. I suspect my long boards relative to the fence
> > may be the issue. I'm fine most of the time, but all it takes is a just
> > a little less pressure on out-feed fence to cause the bump.
> >
> > https://derbydad03.imgur.com/all/
> >
> > See here for one of many vids on jointing with a router table.
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6nql7mlSOo
>
> I am curious. Are you not able to glue from the table saw rips?

It is my understanding that the best glue-ups come via this process:

1 - Joint one edge to make it perfect straight and square
2 - Rip the board parallel on the TS with the jointed edge against the fence
3 - Very lightly joint the ripped edge to remove any saw marks.

My table saw leaves a very clean edge, but my router table leaves a edge
that is buttery smooth.

DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 7:38:29 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>> On 1/13/2018 5:37 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 5:55:47 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On 1/13/2018 4:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>> I'm trying to joint some 1 x 8 poplar on my router table so I can glue up
>>>>> a panel. Each piece is 36" long. I have the out-feed fence 1/16" proud of
>>>>> the in-feed fence.
>>>>>
>>>>> I understand that you are supposed to keep pressure on the out-feed fence
>>>>> but I can't seem to keep even pressure as I move the board along. At 36"
>>>>> long I have to move my hands and when I do, I get a bump in the jointed
>>>>> edge. I tried to clamp 2 feather boards to the table on the out-feed side,
>>>>> but I'm still getting 2-3 bumps on the jointed edge because of hand
>>>>> movement.
>>>>>
>>>>> Neither fence nor the table is long enough to use push paddles for the
>>>>> entire 36". Is that part of the problem?
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there any way to get rid of the bumps so I can do a gap free glue-up?
>>>>>
>>>> I have not joined on a router, but frequently use the router to create
>>>> profiles on picture frames. I have found that I get the best results
>>>> using feather boards on the in fed and out feed ends of the router.
>>>> This then keeps the piece firmly against the fence on both sides to the
>>>> bit for the length of the piece. With the fence I only have to keep the
>>>> piece flat against the table, which I fine easier that trying to keep it
>>>> against the fence and the table. Without the feather board I find the I
>>>> tend to get waves in the route.
>>>>
>>>> The router table is a Sears router table to which I attache a standard
>>>> router. The fence is only about 18". I use a one piece fence with an
>>>> opening for the bit. I have had good results using this technique with
>>>> frames as long as 40 inches.
>>>>
>>>> I suspect that the same technique may work when joining.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Just FYI...It's jointing, not joining.
>>
>> I think it is joining.
>
> I'm pretty sure it's jointing
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jointer
> http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1&p=41801
>
>
>>
No, it us a little confusing. A jointer is a machine, what Lee Valley is
selling. The apparatus. To prepaid and join., is joining. :-)




>>>
>>> When jointing on a router table, you don't want pressure on the in-feed
>>> fence.
>>
>> Well, yes you do, until you have enough on the out feed side to apply
>> pressure to and not both at the same time.
>
> Right. My problem is that with a 36" board, there is more time spent on
> the out-feed side than the in-feed side. What is your definition of "enough"
> on the out feed side? If I switch to putting pressure on the out-feed fence
> after 12" or even 18" I still have to move my hands at least once or I'll
> run out of fence or table from a "hand position" perspective. That's when
> my bump occurs.
>
> https://i.imgur.com/hjSOHrP.jpg
>
>
>>
>> All pressure should be on the out-feed fence which is supposed
>>> to be proud of the in-feed fence and flush with the cutting surface of
>>> the bit. See here:
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6nql7mlSOo
>>>
>>
>> He acknowledges my comment above, pressure on the in feed to begin.
>
> No argument there. I'll agree that I wasn't clear when I talked about
> "no pressure on the in-feed fence". Obviously, you need pressure on the
> in_feed fence at the start of the feed.
>

It's hard enough on a small jointer. Settings have to be perfect. And as
with most anything where you provide the fed rate an inconsistent feed
rate results is an inconsistent result. Practice eventually makes perfect.

My hat is off to you for giving this a try but, as you now see, this is not
as easy as it appears.

DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 7:38:29 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>> On 1/13/2018 5:37 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 5:55:47 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On 1/13/2018 4:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>> I'm trying to joint some 1 x 8 poplar on my router table so I can glue up
>>>>> a panel. Each piece is 36" long. I have the out-feed fence 1/16" proud of
>>>>> the in-feed fence.
>>>>>
>>>>> I understand that you are supposed to keep pressure on the out-feed fence
>>>>> but I can't seem to keep even pressure as I move the board along. At 36"
>>>>> long I have to move my hands and when I do, I get a bump in the jointed
>>>>> edge. I tried to clamp 2 feather boards to the table on the out-feed side,
>>>>> but I'm still getting 2-3 bumps on the jointed edge because of hand
>>>>> movement.
>>>>>
>>>>> Neither fence nor the table is long enough to use push paddles for the
>>>>> entire 36". Is that part of the problem?
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there any way to get rid of the bumps so I can do a gap free glue-up?
>>>>>
>>>> I have not joined on a router, but frequently use the router to create
>>>> profiles on picture frames. I have found that I get the best results
>>>> using feather boards on the in fed and out feed ends of the router.
>>>> This then keeps the piece firmly against the fence on both sides to the
>>>> bit for the length of the piece. With the fence I only have to keep the
>>>> piece flat against the table, which I fine easier that trying to keep it
>>>> against the fence and the table. Without the feather board I find the I
>>>> tend to get waves in the route.
>>>>
>>>> The router table is a Sears router table to which I attache a standard
>>>> router. The fence is only about 18". I use a one piece fence with an
>>>> opening for the bit. I have had good results using this technique with
>>>> frames as long as 40 inches.
>>>>
>>>> I suspect that the same technique may work when joining.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Just FYI...It's jointing, not joining.
>>
>> I think it is joining.
>
> I'm pretty sure it's jointing
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jointer
> http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1&p=41801

The tool is jointer. The
>
>
>>
>>>
>>> When jointing on a router table, you don't want pressure on the in-feed
>>> fence.
>>
>> Well, yes you do, until you have enough on the out feed side to apply
>> pressure to and not both at the same time.
>
> Right. My problem is that with a 36" board, there is more time spent on
> the out-feed side than the in-feed side. What is your definition of "enough"
> on the out feed side? If I switch to putting pressure on the out-feed fence
> after 12" or even 18" I still have to move my hands at least once or I'll
> run out of fence or table from a "hand position" perspective. That's when
> my bump occurs.
>
> https://i.imgur.com/hjSOHrP.jpg
>
>
>>
>> All pressure should be on the out-feed fence which is supposed
>>> to be proud of the in-feed fence and flush with the cutting surface of
>>> the bit. See here:
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6nql7mlSOo
>>>
>>
>> He acknowledges my comment above, pressure on the in feed to begin.
>
> No argument there. I'll agree that I wasn't clear when I talked about
> "no pressure on the in-feed fence". Obviously, you need pressure on the
> in_feed fence at the start of the feed.
>

DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 7:32:36 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>> On 1/13/2018 3:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> I'm trying to joint some 1 x 8 poplar on my router table so I can glue up
>>> a panel. Each piece is 36" long. I have the out-feed fence 1/16" proud of
>>> the in-feed fence.
>>>
>>> I understand that you are supposed to keep pressure on the out-feed fence
>>> but I can't seem to keep even pressure as I move the board along. At 36"
>>> long I have to move my hands and when I do, I get a bump in the jointed
>>> edge. I tried to clamp 2 feather boards to the table on the out-feed side,
>>> but I'm still getting 2-3 bumps on the jointed edge because of hand
>>> movement.
>>>
>>> Neither fence nor the table is long enough to use push paddles for the
>>> entire 36". Is that part of the problem?
>>>
>>> Is there any way to get rid of the bumps so I can do a gap free glue-up?
>>>
>>
>> The fence offset MUST ABSOLUTELY BE SET EXACTLY to the the depth of the
>> cut.
>
> Yes, the out-feed fence is flush with the cutting surface of the bit.
>
>> Apply pressure to the in feed side until you have enough on the
>> out feed side that you can finish the pass.
>
> Yes, but my problem is on the out-feed side. While working on the
> out-feed side, any, *any* let-up in pressure against the fence causes the
> bump.

Yeah, even using a jointer is a learned talent. Using a router table
increases the difficulty because it does not compare to a jointer.
Theoretically you should be able to saw a board as accurately with a hand
saw as with a TS. See where I'm going here? :-). The less appropriate
the tool, the less you should expect.



>
>>
>> I can tell you how to do this on your TS, if you have a TS, and a scrap
>> piece of plywood that is 3+' long.
>
> Thanks, but I am aware of that method.
>

On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 10:16:23 AM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
> "DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 8:28:15 AM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
> >> "DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> news:[email protected]...
> >> > On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 1:56:44 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
> >>
> >> >> There is no need to, left hand holds the work against the outfeed
> >> >> fence, right hand moves it along. Now, if the work were much more
> >> >> than
> >> >> 36"
> >> >> long, you would have to move your right hand but not your left; no
> >> >> matter,
> >> >> left is still holding it where it should be.
> >> >
> >> > I just changed my feed method and hand positions. I did not change my
> >> > fences.
> >> > I was able to joint a 36" board without any bumps.
> >> >
> >> > I was previously holding the board down and against fence with both
> >> > hands
> >> > on the out-feed side. Even tried paddles. This time, partially based on
> >> > your wording, I installed a feather board to hold the board down and
> >> > placed
> >> > my left hand on the table, keeping pressure on outside edge of the
> >> > board
> >> > to
> >> > hold it against the out-feed table while moving it with my right.
> >> > Perfectly
> >> > jointed edge.
> >>
> >> YAY!. As a refinement, you don't need the featherboard, your left hand
> >> can
> >> easily hold it both in and down.
> >
> > Belt and suspenders. Easily attached, provides peace of mind.
> >
> >>
> >> There remains the reason behind your bumps. Even holding it as you
> >> described, there should have been none. For a bump to arise, the board
> >> has
> >> to have slightly moved away from the bit, then moved laterally, then
> >> returned to the bit.
> >
> > Exactly - as previously stated very early in this thread.
> >
> >> The simplest explanation is that there was a fulcrum;
> >> ie, the fence halves were not parallel.
> >
> > I'm not sure why you keep going back to the fences. In the post you just
> > responded to I stated that I did not have to adjust the fences to
> > eliminate
> > the bumps. It was all caused by improper hand positioning.
>
> Because if the fences were parallel and you kept the work against the fence
> when changing hands you should not have made a bump. If they were NOT
> parallel there would be a fulcrum; if you applied greater/lesser pressure
> toward the fence on the work piece on one side or the other of the fulcrum,
> you'd get a bump; if you applied pressure correctly, no bump even if the
> fences were less than parallel.
>
> IOW, holding as you did should not cause a bump.

Do you know how I was holding it when the bumps were created vs. how I
modified the holding process?

It should be painfully obvious by now that fences are/were fine based on the
fact that I have repeatedly said (and if I ever wanted to post in all caps,
this would be the time) I am now able to get a perfectly jointed edge without
ever having changed the positioning of the fences.

If the fences were part of the problem I seriously doubt that I would have
been able to eliminate the bumps simply my changing the feed method/hand
positions.

Please stop bringing the fences into this situation. I'm not saying that a
fence mis-alignment wouldn't cause this problem, I'm saying that the fences
(imagine all caps again) were not a factor in this specific case.

>
> >> The other explanation is that you
> >> were physically moving the work to create the bump.
> >
> > See your "For a bump to arise" sentence above. Also, that fact was
> > previously
> > stated very early in this thread.
> >
> >> In either case, I'd
> >> think the problem would be immediately obvious. Why wasn't it?
> >
> > It was. Why do you think I started this thread?
>
> I should have said, "In either case, I'd think the SOLUTION would be
> immediately obvious."

On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 8:28:15 AM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
> "DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 1:56:44 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
>
> >> There is no need to, left hand holds the work against the outfeed
> >> fence, right hand moves it along. Now, if the work were much more than
> >> 36"
> >> long, you would have to move your right hand but not your left; no
> >> matter,
> >> left is still holding it where it should be.
> >
> > I just changed my feed method and hand positions. I did not change my
> > fences.
> > I was able to joint a 36" board without any bumps.
> >
> > I was previously holding the board down and against fence with both hands
> > on the out-feed side. Even tried paddles. This time, partially based on
> > your wording, I installed a feather board to hold the board down and
> > placed
> > my left hand on the table, keeping pressure on outside edge of the board
> > to
> > hold it against the out-feed table while moving it with my right.
> > Perfectly
> > jointed edge.
>
> YAY!. As a refinement, you don't need the featherboard, your left hand can
> easily hold it both in and down.

Belt and suspenders. Easily attached, provides peace of mind.

>
> There remains the reason behind your bumps. Even holding it as you
> described, there should have been none. For a bump to arise, the board has
> to have slightly moved away from the bit, then moved laterally, then
> returned to the bit.

Exactly - as previously stated very early in this thread.

> The simplest explanation is that there was a fulcrum;
> ie, the fence halves were not parallel.

I'm not sure why you keep going back to the fences. In the post you just
responded to I stated that I did not have to adjust the fences to eliminate
the bumps. It was all caused by improper hand positioning.

> The other explanation is that you
> were physically moving the work to create the bump.

See your "For a bump to arise" sentence above. Also, that fact was previously
stated very early in this thread.

> In either case, I'd
> think the problem would be immediately obvious. Why wasn't it?

It was. Why do you think I started this thread?

On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 6:07:52 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 3:10:56 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > I'm trying to joint some 1 x 8 poplar on my router table so I can glue up
> > a panel. Each piece is 36" long. I have the out-feed fence 1/16" proud of
> > the in-feed fence.
> >
> > I understand that you are supposed to keep pressure on the out-feed fence
> > but I can't seem to keep even pressure as I move the board along. At 36"
> > long I have to move my hands and when I do, I get a bump in the jointed
> > edge. I tried to clamp 2 feather boards to the table on the out-feed side,
> > but I'm still getting 2-3 bumps on the jointed edge because of hand
> > movement.
> >
> > Neither fence nor the table is long enough to use push paddles for the
> > entire 36". Is that part of the problem?
> >
> > Is there any way to get rid of the bumps so I can do a gap free glue-up?
>
> I have had good results clamping an aluminum straight edge to the top of the board and running a router along the side with a longish bit. I don't think I'd want to try using the router table for this purpose.
>
> Best of luck.

Here's an option that uses aluminum a slightly different manner.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/2005/10/25/jointing-boards-with-the-router

On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 11:02:08 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
> On 1/13/2018 9:43 PM, Michael wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 9:06:05 PM UTC-6, [email protected] wrote:
> >> On Sat, 13 Jan 2018 16:21:56 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 7:04:56 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
> >>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 5:42:02 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 6:07:52 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
> >>>>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 3:10:56 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>>>>>> I'm trying to joint some 1 x 8 poplar on my router table so I can glue up
> >>>>>>> a panel. Each piece is 36" long. I have the out-feed fence 1/16" proud of
> >>>>>>> the in-feed fence.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I understand that you are supposed to keep pressure on the out-feed fence
> >>>>>>> but I can't seem to keep even pressure as I move the board along. At 36"
> >>>>>>> long I have to move my hands and when I do, I get a bump in the jointed
> >>>>>>> edge. I tried to clamp 2 feather boards to the table on the out-feed side,
> >>>>>>> but I'm still getting 2-3 bumps on the jointed edge because of hand
> >>>>>>> movement.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Neither fence nor the table is long enough to use push paddles for the
> >>>>>>> entire 36". Is that part of the problem?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Is there any way to get rid of the bumps so I can do a gap free glue-up?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I have had good results clamping an aluminum straight edge to the top of the board and running a router along the side with a longish bit. I don't think I'd want to try using the router table for this purpose.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Best of luck.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That is an option and may be my next step. However, jointing on a router
> >>>>> table is fairly common. I suspect my long boards relative to the fence
> >>>>> may be the issue. I'm fine most of the time, but all it takes is a just
> >>>>> a little less pressure on out-feed fence to cause the bump.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://derbydad03.imgur.com/all/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> See here for one of many vids on jointing with a router table.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6nql7mlSOo
> >>>>
> >>>> I am curious. Are you not able to glue from the table saw rips?
> >>>
> >>> It is my understanding that the best glue-ups come via this process:
> >>>
> >>> 1 - Joint one edge to make it perfect straight and square
> >>> 2 - Rip the board parallel on the TS with the jointed edge against the fence
> >>
> >> 2a - Make sure you've used your Glue Line Rip blade.
> >>
> >>> 3 - Very lightly joint the ripped edge to remove any saw marks.
> >>
> >> Nope. No saw marks needed. See 2a (above).
> >>
> >>> My table saw leaves a very clean edge, but my router table leaves a edge
> >>> that is buttery smooth.
> >>
> >> Not the best for a glue up.
> >
> > I wondered about that as well. A really smooth surface won't soak up the glue as well and you could squeeze out too much when clamping.
> >
>
> There is a lot of back and forth on this. Typical yellow/wood glue is
> not a good gap filler and works best with a minimum of product in the
> joint. Tooth marks create gaps.
> Additionally there is a lot of back and forth talk on starving a joint
> by squeezing glue out of it. Glue starvation as it is often called is
> when there is no or not enough glue on the surface to begin with not
> because you had squeeze out. You get squeeze out because there was too
> much glue in the joint to begin with. If you don't get squeeze out you
> have no indicator that the joint is tight. I have never had a joint
> fail because of too much clamping pressure and causing too much glue to
> squeeze out. Remember, a quality glue joint line is one that is almost
> invisible.

Thanks for the info on this. I think was Norm who once talked about not clamping too hard because it would squeeze all the glue out of a joint. I've always kept that in the back of my mind.

On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 12:20:24 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> On 1/13/2018 11:17 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> > On 1/13/18 10:15 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> >> On Sat, 13 Jan 2018 20:05:06 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03=20
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 10:06:05 PM UTC-5,
> >>> [email protected] wrote:
> >>>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2018 16:21:56 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03=20
> >>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 7:04:56 PM UTC-5, Michael
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 5:42:02 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 6:07:52 PM UTC-5, Michael
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 3:10:56 PM UTC-6,
> >>>>>>>> DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> I'm trying to joint some 1 x 8 poplar on my router
> >>>>>>>>> table so I can glue up a panel. Each piece is 36" long.
> >>>>>>>>> I have the out-feed fence 1/16" proud of the in-feed
> >>>>>>>>> fence.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I understand that you are supposed to keep pressure on
> >>>>>>>>> the out-feed fence but I can't seem to keep even
> >>>>>>>>> pressure as I move the board along. At 36" long I have
> >>>>>>>>> to move my hands and when I do, I get a bump in the
> >>>>>>>>> jointed edge. I tried to clamp 2 feather boards to the
> >>>>>>>>> table on the out-feed side, but I'm still getting 2-3
> >>>>>>>>> bumps on the jointed edge because of hand movement.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Neither fence nor the table is long enough to use push
> >>>>>>>>> paddles for the entire 36". Is that part of the
> >>>>>>>>> problem?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Is there any way to get rid of the bumps so I can do a
> >>>>>>>>> gap free glue-up?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I have had good results clamping an aluminum straight
> >>>>>>>> edge to the top of the board and running a router along
> >>>>>>>> the side with a longish bit. I don't think I'd want to
> >>>>>>>> try using the router table for this purpose.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Best of luck.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> That is an option and may be my next step. However,
> >>>>>>> jointing on a router table is fairly common. I suspect my
> >>>>>>> long boards relative to the fence may be the issue. I'm
> >>>>>>> fine most of the time, but all it takes is a just a little
> >>>>>>> less pressure on out-feed fence to cause the bump.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://derbydad03.imgur.com/all/
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> See here for one of many vids on jointing with a router
> >>>>>>> table.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DH6nql7mlSOo
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I am curious. Are you not able to glue from the table saw
> >>>>>> rips?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It is my understanding that the best glue-ups come via this
> >>>>> process:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1 - Joint one edge to make it perfect straight and square 2 -
> >>>>> Rip the board parallel on the TS with the jointed edge against
> >>>>> the fence
> >>>>
> >>>> 2a - Make sure you've used your Glue Line Rip blade.
> >>>>
> >>>>> 3 - Very lightly joint the ripped edge to remove any saw
> >>>>> marks.
> >>>>
> >>>> Nope.=C2=A0 No saw marks needed.=C2=A0 See 2a (above).
> >>>>
> >>>>> My table saw leaves a very clean edge, but my router table
> >>>>> leaves a edge that is buttery smooth.
> >>>>
> >>>> Not the best for a glue up.
> >>>
> >>> So you're saying that jointing with a router should be avoided?
> >>
> >> No, just that a table saw, properly set up, is good enough.
> >>
> >>> Why are there so many articles and videos from so many sources
> >>> detailing the technique?
> >>
> >> I have no idea.=C2=A0 Maybe because if all you have a hammer, the enti=
re=20
> >> world looks like a screw?
> >>
> >> However, the point I was trying to make was that a glass-like
> >> surface may not be best for a (wood) glue joint.
> >>
> >=20
> > There are so many articles because people don't have decent table saws
> > nor blades.
> > He's right.=C2=A0 A great rip blade and properly tuned table saw are al=
l you
> > need.
>=20
> yeah!
>
=20
I just "jointed" some boards with a freshly sharpened 24 tooth rip blade.=
=20
When "joined", the "joints" look good. ;-)

I'm going to go with them for the ~18" wide top for my base cabinets. 2=20
seams. They will be screwed to supports inside the cabinet (and painted)=20
so if the joints ever fail, the panels will be easy to replace.

It's a learning experience.

On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 4:14:12 PM UTC-6, Sonny wrote:

>
> I'm suspecting your fences are not in line, on the same plane, parallel.... hence the "wobble" in the motion of the run through the cutter, i.e., it's not the movement of your hands or hands' position.

There's a technique for making a curved edge (an arch), using the jointer: Lower the outfeed table, hence, you get an arced/arched edge. This seems to be similar to what you are experiencing, but you are blaming it on your hand-movement positions.

Check that your fences are coplanar.

Sonny

On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 5:55:47 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
> On 1/13/2018 4:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > I'm trying to joint some 1 x 8 poplar on my router table so I can glue up
> > a panel. Each piece is 36" long. I have the out-feed fence 1/16" proud of
> > the in-feed fence.
> >
> > I understand that you are supposed to keep pressure on the out-feed fence
> > but I can't seem to keep even pressure as I move the board along. At 36"
> > long I have to move my hands and when I do, I get a bump in the jointed
> > edge. I tried to clamp 2 feather boards to the table on the out-feed side,
> > but I'm still getting 2-3 bumps on the jointed edge because of hand
> > movement.
> >
> > Neither fence nor the table is long enough to use push paddles for the
> > entire 36". Is that part of the problem?
> >
> > Is there any way to get rid of the bumps so I can do a gap free glue-up?
> >
> I have not joined on a router, but frequently use the router to create
> profiles on picture frames. I have found that I get the best results
> using feather boards on the in fed and out feed ends of the router.
> This then keeps the piece firmly against the fence on both sides to the
> bit for the length of the piece. With the fence I only have to keep the
> piece flat against the table, which I fine easier that trying to keep it
> against the fence and the table. Without the feather board I find the I
> tend to get waves in the route.
>
> The router table is a Sears router table to which I attache a standard
> router. The fence is only about 18". I use a one piece fence with an
> opening for the bit. I have had good results using this technique with
> frames as long as 40 inches.
>
> I suspect that the same technique may work when joining.
>

Just FYI...It's jointing, not joining.

When jointing on a router table, you don't want pressure on the in-feed
fence. All pressure should be on the out-feed fence which is supposed
to be proud of the in-feed fence and flush with the cutting surface of
the bit. See here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6nql7mlSOo

On 1/13/2018 6:21 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 7:04:56 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 5:42:02 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 6:07:52 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 3:10:56 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>> I'm trying to joint some 1 x 8 poplar on my router table so I can glue up
>>>>> a panel. Each piece is 36" long. I have the out-feed fence 1/16" proud of
>>>>> the in-feed fence.
>>>>>
>>>>> I understand that you are supposed to keep pressure on the out-feed fence
>>>>> but I can't seem to keep even pressure as I move the board along. At 36"
>>>>> long I have to move my hands and when I do, I get a bump in the jointed
>>>>> edge. I tried to clamp 2 feather boards to the table on the out-feed side,
>>>>> but I'm still getting 2-3 bumps on the jointed edge because of hand
>>>>> movement.
>>>>>
>>>>> Neither fence nor the table is long enough to use push paddles for the
>>>>> entire 36". Is that part of the problem?
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there any way to get rid of the bumps so I can do a gap free glue-up?
>>>>
>>>> I have had good results clamping an aluminum straight edge to the top of the board and running a router along the side with a longish bit. I don't think I'd want to try using the router table for this purpose.
>>>>
>>>> Best of luck.
>>>
>>> That is an option and may be my next step. However, jointing on a router
>>> table is fairly common. I suspect my long boards relative to the fence
>>> may be the issue. I'm fine most of the time, but all it takes is a just
>>> a little less pressure on out-feed fence to cause the bump.
>>>
>>> https://derbydad03.imgur.com/all/
>>>
>>> See here for one of many vids on jointing with a router table.
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6nql7mlSOo
>>
>> I am curious. Are you not able to glue from the table saw rips?
>
> It is my understanding that the best glue-ups come via this process:
>
> 1 - Joint one edge to make it perfect straight and square

yes

> 2 - Rip the board parallel on the TS with the jointed edge against the fence

yes

> 3 - Very lightly joint the ripped edge to remove any saw marks.


NO! This introduces error, the same you are having problems with. If
you have tooth marks you need to set you saw up better and or be using a
better blade. Joining the opposite side after the rip can cause the
board to taper.
>
> My table saw leaves a very clean edge, but my router table leaves a edge
> that is buttery smooth.
>

On 1/13/2018 5:37 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 5:55:47 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
>> On 1/13/2018 4:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> I'm trying to joint some 1 x 8 poplar on my router table so I can glue up
>>> a panel. Each piece is 36" long. I have the out-feed fence 1/16" proud of
>>> the in-feed fence.
>>>
>>> I understand that you are supposed to keep pressure on the out-feed fence
>>> but I can't seem to keep even pressure as I move the board along. At 36"
>>> long I have to move my hands and when I do, I get a bump in the jointed
>>> edge. I tried to clamp 2 feather boards to the table on the out-feed side,
>>> but I'm still getting 2-3 bumps on the jointed edge because of hand
>>> movement.
>>>
>>> Neither fence nor the table is long enough to use push paddles for the
>>> entire 36". Is that part of the problem?
>>>
>>> Is there any way to get rid of the bumps so I can do a gap free glue-up?
>>>
>> I have not joined on a router, but frequently use the router to create
>> profiles on picture frames. I have found that I get the best results
>> using feather boards on the in fed and out feed ends of the router.
>> This then keeps the piece firmly against the fence on both sides to the
>> bit for the length of the piece. With the fence I only have to keep the
>> piece flat against the table, which I fine easier that trying to keep it
>> against the fence and the table. Without the feather board I find the I
>> tend to get waves in the route.
>>
>> The router table is a Sears router table to which I attache a standard
>> router. The fence is only about 18". I use a one piece fence with an
>> opening for the bit. I have had good results using this technique with
>> frames as long as 40 inches.
>>
>> I suspect that the same technique may work when joining.
>>
>
> Just FYI...It's jointing, not joining.

I think it is joining.

>
> When jointing on a router table, you don't want pressure on the in-feed
> fence.

Well, yes you do, until you have enough on the out feed side to apply
pressure to and not both at the same time.


All pressure should be on the out-feed fence which is supposed
> to be proud of the in-feed fence and flush with the cutting surface of
> the bit. See here:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6nql7mlSOo
>

He acknowledges my comment above, pressure on the in feed to begin.

On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 1:56:44 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
> "DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I'm trying to joint some 1 x 8 poplar on my router table so I can glue up
> > a panel. Each piece is 36" long. I have the out-feed fence 1/16" proud of
> > the in-feed fence.
> >
> > I understand that you are supposed to keep pressure on the out-feed fence
> > but I can't seem to keep even pressure as I move the board along. At 36"
> > long I have to move my hands and when I do, I get a bump in the jointed
> > edge. I tried to clamp 2 feather boards to the table on the out-feed side,
> > but I'm still getting 2-3 bumps on the jointed edge because of hand
> > movement.
> >
> > Neither fence nor the table is long enough to use push paddles for the
> > entire 36". Is that part of the problem?
> >
> > Is there any way to get rid of the bumps so I can do a gap free glue-up?
>
> Since you want to think that your holding method is at fault rather than
> your fence haves not being parallel, let me suggest that you not move your
> hands.

Hearing and vision were enough to prove to me that the issue was my holding
method.

The fact that I just perfectly jointed a board that fit within the fence
width, requiring no need for me to move my hands along the stock, convinces
me all the more.


> There is no need to, left hand holds the work against the outfeed
> fence, right hand moves it along. Now, if the work were much more than 36"
> long, you would have to move your right hand but not your left; no matter,
> left is still holding it where it should be.

I just changed my feed method and hand positions. I did not change my fences.
I was able to joint a 36" board without any bumps.

I was previously holding the board down and against fence with both hands
on the out-feed side. Even tried paddles. This time, partially based on
your wording, I installed a feather board to hold the board down and placed
my left hand on the table, keeping pressure on outside edge of the board to
hold it against the out-feed table while moving it with my right. Perfectly
jointed edge.

>
> Trust me, all is true, been doing it that way for more than 30 years.

Bottom line is that it wasn't that I *wanted* to think my holding method
was at fault, it was 100% true that my holding method was at fault. There
was/is no issue with my fences.

Thanks for your suggestion regarding a different holding method.

DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 7:41:56 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>> On 1/13/2018 6:21 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 7:04:56 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 5:42:02 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 6:07:52 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 3:10:56 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>>>> I'm trying to joint some 1 x 8 poplar on my router table so I can glue up
>>>>>>> a panel. Each piece is 36" long. I have the out-feed fence 1/16" proud of
>>>>>>> the in-feed fence.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I understand that you are supposed to keep pressure on the out-feed fence
>>>>>>> but I can't seem to keep even pressure as I move the board along. At 36"
>>>>>>> long I have to move my hands and when I do, I get a bump in the jointed
>>>>>>> edge. I tried to clamp 2 feather boards to the table on the out-feed side,
>>>>>>> but I'm still getting 2-3 bumps on the jointed edge because of hand
>>>>>>> movement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Neither fence nor the table is long enough to use push paddles for the
>>>>>>> entire 36". Is that part of the problem?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there any way to get rid of the bumps so I can do a gap free glue-up?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have had good results clamping an aluminum straight edge to the
>>>>>> top of the board and running a router along the side with a longish
>>>>>> bit. I don't think I'd want to try using the router table for this purpose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best of luck.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is an option and may be my next step. However, jointing on a router
>>>>> table is fairly common. I suspect my long boards relative to the fence
>>>>> may be the issue. I'm fine most of the time, but all it takes is a just
>>>>> a little less pressure on out-feed fence to cause the bump.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://derbydad03.imgur.com/all/
>>>>>
>>>>> See here for one of many vids on jointing with a router table.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6nql7mlSOo
>>>>
>>>> I am curious. Are you not able to glue from the table saw rips?
>>>
>>> It is my understanding that the best glue-ups come via this process:
>>>
>>> 1 - Joint one edge to make it perfect straight and square
>>
>> yes
>>
>>> 2 - Rip the board parallel on the TS with the jointed edge against the fence
>>
>> yes
>>
>>> 3 - Very lightly joint the ripped edge to remove any saw marks.
>>
>>
>> NO! This introduces error, the same you are having problems with.
>
> While the second pass may not be needed (more on that later) I don't see the
> connection between the second jointing pass and my problem. My problem is
> a pressure related problem that has nothing to do with a second pass. There
> doesn't even need to be table saw in the room for my problem to occur. ;-)
> I'm not even getting past Step 1.

Thanks for not making me explain that. :-). Inconsistent feed results in
inconsistent results. :-). Welcome to the AR club. :-)

Theoretically the router table and fence can do what you want to happen.
But every thing has to be perfect. And something, including possibly your
inexperience is affecting your out come. This will is a relatively
difficult task, it is not something you just do perfectly right off the
bat. Practice, practice, practice. Or use tour TS to get your straight
edge.




>
>> If
>> you have tooth marks you need to set you saw up better and or be using a
>> better blade. Joining the opposite side after the rip can cause the
>> board to taper.
>>>
>
> They talk about a very light pass in this thread:
>
> http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/edge-jointing-both-sides-board-126194/
>
> I don't have a jointer (obviously) but how can a light pass cause the
> board to taper? Whether jointing on a router table or on a jointer, aren't
> you taking off the same amount of wood along the entire length of the board?


A TS And a surface planer both have fixed indexing surfaces. Your hands
are not a fixed surface. The rip fence on your TS and the table on a
planer are hard fixed reference surfaces. Those surfaces are a hard fixed
surface opposite the cutter. Your hands don't come close to providing an
absolute fixed surface opposite the cutter on a jointer or router bit. To
be accurate you have to remove variables. Your hand feed rate is a
constant variable.

>
>
>

On 1/14/2018 12:48 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/14/18 11:22 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 1/13/2018 10:56 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 11:41:57 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 10:11:09 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 6:07:52 PM UTC-5, Michael
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 3:10:56 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> I'm trying to joint some 1 x 8 poplar on my router table so
>>>>>>> I can glue up a panel. Each piece is 36" long. I have the
>>>>>>> out-feed fence 1/16" proud of the in-feed fence.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I understand that you are supposed to keep pressure on the
>>>>>>>  out-feed fence but I can't seem to keep even pressure as I
>>>>>>> move the board along. At 36" long I have to move my hands
>>>>>>> and when I do, I get a bump in the jointed edge. I tried to
>>>>>>> clamp 2 feather boards to the table on the out-feed side, but I'm
>>>>>>> still getting 2-3 bumps on the jointed edge because
>>>>>>> of hand movement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Neither fence nor the table is long enough to use push
>>>>>>> paddles for the entire 36". Is that part of the problem?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there any way to get rid of the bumps so I can do a gap
>>>>>>> free glue-up?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have had good results clamping an aluminum straight edge to
>>>>>> the top of the board and running a router along the side with
>>>>>> a longish bit. I don't think I'd want to try using the router
>>>>>> table for this purpose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best of luck.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's an option that uses aluminum a slightly different
>>>>> manner.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.finewoodworking.com/2005/10/25/jointing-boards-with-the-router
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've used this method also but I couldn't get it to work as well.
>>>> I can't remember exactly why but I had to make several passes to
>>>> get it perfect. User operator error of some kind, I'm sure.
>>>
>>> Join the club! I'm sure I'm doing something wrong too.
>>>
>>
>> I can guarantee you that aluminum angle is not straight enough to
>> form a glue line surface.
>
> It's only straight if it's attached to something straight.   :-)
> I think in the article in the link, it's attached to a straight board
> and hopefully triple checked.  I believe the aluminum is there to give
> the router bit bearing a hard, smooth surface to reference.
>
>

Yeah, and what are the chances of that board staying straight through
out the year. Probably a better choice would have been to use a
straight piece of plywood. LOL. I think the aluminum would dent or
nick pretty easily.

On 1/14/2018 1:13 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Snip


>>
>
> I just "jointed" some boards with a freshly sharpened 24 tooth rip blade.
> When "joined", the "joints" look good. ;-)
>
> I'm going to go with them for the ~18" wide top for my base cabinets. 2
> seams. They will be screwed to supports inside the cabinet (and painted)
> so if the joints ever fail, the panels will be easy to replace.
>
> It's a learning experience.
>

If you are going cross grain with your supports leave the screw holes a
little big to give the wood some wiggle room during seasonal climate
changes.

Your joints should not fail... ;~)

On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 10:06:05 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Jan 2018 16:21:56 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 7:04:56 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
> >> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 5:42:02 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >> > On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 6:07:52 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
> >> > > On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 3:10:56 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >> > > > I'm trying to joint some 1 x 8 poplar on my router table so I can glue up
> >> > > > a panel. Each piece is 36" long. I have the out-feed fence 1/16" proud of
> >> > > > the in-feed fence.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I understand that you are supposed to keep pressure on the out-feed fence
> >> > > > but I can't seem to keep even pressure as I move the board along. At 36"
> >> > > > long I have to move my hands and when I do, I get a bump in the jointed
> >> > > > edge. I tried to clamp 2 feather boards to the table on the out-feed side,
> >> > > > but I'm still getting 2-3 bumps on the jointed edge because of hand
> >> > > > movement.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Neither fence nor the table is long enough to use push paddles for the
> >> > > > entire 36". Is that part of the problem?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Is there any way to get rid of the bumps so I can do a gap free glue-up?
> >> > >
> >> > > I have had good results clamping an aluminum straight edge to the top of the board and running a router along the side with a longish bit. I don't think I'd want to try using the router table for this purpose.
> >> > >
> >> > > Best of luck.
> >> >
> >> > That is an option and may be my next step. However, jointing on a router
> >> > table is fairly common. I suspect my long boards relative to the fence
> >> > may be the issue. I'm fine most of the time, but all it takes is a just
> >> > a little less pressure on out-feed fence to cause the bump.
> >> >
> >> > https://derbydad03.imgur.com/all/
> >> >
> >> > See here for one of many vids on jointing with a router table.
> >> >
> >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6nql7mlSOo
> >>
> >> I am curious. Are you not able to glue from the table saw rips?
> >
> >It is my understanding that the best glue-ups come via this process:
> >
> >1 - Joint one edge to make it perfect straight and square
> >2 - Rip the board parallel on the TS with the jointed edge against the fence
>
> 2a - Make sure you've used your Glue Line Rip blade.
>
> >3 - Very lightly joint the ripped edge to remove any saw marks.
>
> Nope. No saw marks needed. See 2a (above).
>
> >My table saw leaves a very clean edge, but my router table leaves a edge
> >that is buttery smooth.
>
> Not the best for a glue up.

So you're saying that jointing with a router should be avoided?

Why are there so many articles and videos from so many sources detailing the technique?

On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 9:06:05 PM UTC-6, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Jan 2018 16:21:56 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 7:04:56 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
> >> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 5:42:02 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >> > On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 6:07:52 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
> >> > > On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 3:10:56 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >> > > > I'm trying to joint some 1 x 8 poplar on my router table so I can glue up
> >> > > > a panel. Each piece is 36" long. I have the out-feed fence 1/16" proud of
> >> > > > the in-feed fence.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I understand that you are supposed to keep pressure on the out-feed fence
> >> > > > but I can't seem to keep even pressure as I move the board along. At 36"
> >> > > > long I have to move my hands and when I do, I get a bump in the jointed
> >> > > > edge. I tried to clamp 2 feather boards to the table on the out-feed side,
> >> > > > but I'm still getting 2-3 bumps on the jointed edge because of hand
> >> > > > movement.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Neither fence nor the table is long enough to use push paddles for the
> >> > > > entire 36". Is that part of the problem?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Is there any way to get rid of the bumps so I can do a gap free glue-up?
> >> > >
> >> > > I have had good results clamping an aluminum straight edge to the top of the board and running a router along the side with a longish bit. I don't think I'd want to try using the router table for this purpose.
> >> > >
> >> > > Best of luck.
> >> >
> >> > That is an option and may be my next step. However, jointing on a router
> >> > table is fairly common. I suspect my long boards relative to the fence
> >> > may be the issue. I'm fine most of the time, but all it takes is a just
> >> > a little less pressure on out-feed fence to cause the bump.
> >> >
> >> > https://derbydad03.imgur.com/all/
> >> >
> >> > See here for one of many vids on jointing with a router table.
> >> >
> >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6nql7mlSOo
> >>
> >> I am curious. Are you not able to glue from the table saw rips?
> >
> >It is my understanding that the best glue-ups come via this process:
> >
> >1 - Joint one edge to make it perfect straight and square
> >2 - Rip the board parallel on the TS with the jointed edge against the fence
>
> 2a - Make sure you've used your Glue Line Rip blade.
>
> >3 - Very lightly joint the ripped edge to remove any saw marks.
>
> Nope. No saw marks needed. See 2a (above).
>
> >My table saw leaves a very clean edge, but my router table leaves a edge
> >that is buttery smooth.
>
> Not the best for a glue up.

I wondered about that as well. A really smooth surface won't soak up the glue as well and you could squeeze out too much when clamping.

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 12:48:33 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 1/14/18 11:22 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 1/13/2018 10:56 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 11:41:57 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 10:11:09 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 6:07:52 PM UTC-5, Michael
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 3:10:56 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> I'm trying to joint some 1 x 8 poplar on my router table so
>>>>>>> I can glue up a panel. Each piece is 36" long. I have the
>>>>>>> out-feed fence 1/16" proud of the in-feed fence.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I understand that you are supposed to keep pressure on the
>>>>>>> out-feed fence but I can't seem to keep even pressure as I
>>>>>>> move the board along. At 36" long I have to move my hands
>>>>>>> and when I do, I get a bump in the jointed edge. I tried to
>>>>>>> clamp 2 feather boards to the table on the out-feed side,
>>>>>>> but I'm still getting 2-3 bumps on the jointed edge because
>>>>>>> of hand movement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Neither fence nor the table is long enough to use push
>>>>>>> paddles for the entire 36". Is that part of the problem?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there any way to get rid of the bumps so I can do a gap
>>>>>>> free glue-up?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have had good results clamping an aluminum straight edge to
>>>>>> the top of the board and running a router along the side with
>>>>>> a longish bit. I don't think I'd want to try using the router
>>>>>> table for this purpose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best of luck.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's an option that uses aluminum a slightly different
>>>>> manner.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.finewoodworking.com/2005/10/25/jointing-boards-with-the-router
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've used this method also but I couldn't get it to work as well.
>>>> I can't remember exactly why but I had to make several passes to
>>>> get it perfect. User operator error of some kind, I'm sure.
>>>
>>> Join the club! I'm sure I'm doing something wrong too.
>>>
>>
>> I can guarantee you that aluminum angle is not straight enough to
>> form a glue line surface.
>
>It's only straight if it's attached to something straight. :-)
>I think in the article in the link, it's attached to a straight board
>and hopefully triple checked. I believe the aluminum is there to give
>the router bit bearing a hard, smooth surface to reference.

But why does the bearing need a surface harder than a board. It's not
very sharp. ;-)

On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 1:34:32 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 7:38:29 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> >> On 1/13/2018 5:37 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 5:55:47 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
> >>>> On 1/13/2018 4:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>>>> I'm trying to joint some 1 x 8 poplar on my router table so I can glue up
> >>>>> a panel. Each piece is 36" long. I have the out-feed fence 1/16" proud of
> >>>>> the in-feed fence.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I understand that you are supposed to keep pressure on the out-feed fence
> >>>>> but I can't seem to keep even pressure as I move the board along. At 36"
> >>>>> long I have to move my hands and when I do, I get a bump in the jointed
> >>>>> edge. I tried to clamp 2 feather boards to the table on the out-feed side,
> >>>>> but I'm still getting 2-3 bumps on the jointed edge because of hand
> >>>>> movement.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Neither fence nor the table is long enough to use push paddles for the
> >>>>> entire 36". Is that part of the problem?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Is there any way to get rid of the bumps so I can do a gap free glue-up?
> >>>>>
> >>>> I have not joined on a router, but frequently use the router to create
> >>>> profiles on picture frames. I have found that I get the best results
> >>>> using feather boards on the in fed and out feed ends of the router.
> >>>> This then keeps the piece firmly against the fence on both sides to the
> >>>> bit for the length of the piece. With the fence I only have to keep the
> >>>> piece flat against the table, which I fine easier that trying to keep it
> >>>> against the fence and the table. Without the feather board I find the I
> >>>> tend to get waves in the route.
> >>>>
> >>>> The router table is a Sears router table to which I attache a standard
> >>>> router. The fence is only about 18". I use a one piece fence with an
> >>>> opening for the bit. I have had good results using this technique with
> >>>> frames as long as 40 inches.
> >>>>
> >>>> I suspect that the same technique may work when joining.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Just FYI...It's jointing, not joining.
> >>
> >> I think it is joining.
> >
> > I'm pretty sure it's jointing
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jointer
> > http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1&p=41801
> >
> >
> >>
> No, it us a little confusing. A jointer is a machine, what Lee Valley is
> selling. The apparatus. To prepaid and join., is joining. :-)

By "prepaid", I assume you mean "prepare". If that's the case, I have to
respectfully disagree.

Maybe we aren't talking about the same thing or using the words in the
same context. I was responding to Keith's comments, which involve the
preparation step only.

First he said: "I have not joined on a router"

Then, after discusses his use of feathers boards on the in-feed and out-feed
side he said "I suspect that the same technique may work when joining."

Therefore he is talking about the preparation of the edges only. As far as
I can tell from everything I've read, the preparation step is called jointing.

From the same Veritas page:

"One of the great advantages of the Veritas router table fence is that it makes jointing easy." Jointing, as in the process, not the apparatus.

From (if you trust wikipedia): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edge_jointing

Here they discuss both the preparation process (jointing), the apparatus
(jointer) and the subsequent operation of putting the components together
(joining).

"Edge jointing or just jointing is the process of making the edge of a wooden
board straight and true in preparation for subsequent operations, often
ultimately leading to joining two or more components together. Traditionally,
jointing was performed using a jointer plane. Modern techniques include the
use of a jointer machine, a hand held router and straight edge, or a table-
mounted router. Although the process derives its name from the primary task of
straightening an edge prior to joining, the term jointing is used whenever
this process is performed, regardless of the application."

From: http://www.finewoodworking.com/2014/02/19/jointing-boards-for-dead-flat-panel-glue-ups

The title of article and video is "Jointing Boards for Dead-Flat Panel
Glue-Ups"

I could go on. Everything I can find refers to the process of prepping the
board as jointing. Then you join them, creating a joint.

I am certainly willing to admit being wrong, but then so must be all the
sources that use the term jointing for the preparation process.

On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 11:54:31 PM UTC-6, Sonny wrote:
> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 5:31:12 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>=20
> >=20
> > When jointing on a router table, the fences are *supposed* to be mis-al=
igned.
>=20
> Correct!
>=20
> > The out-feed fence is supposed to be about 1/16" closer to the operator=
than
> > the in-feed fence.
>=20
> Correct!
>=20
> > The bit is then aligned flush with the face of the out-feed
> > fence.
>=20
> Correct!
>=20
> I'm suspecting the two fences, outfeed and infeed, are not parallel, desp=
ite their being offset. They are not exactly coplanar. They need to be =
offset and they also need to be perfectly coplanar.
>=20
> I suspect your hand movement is giving you a misjudged idea of why you ar=
e having the bump. It's not your hand movement that's the (main, if at al=
l) problem. Check to make sure your fences are coplanar, despite their bei=
ng offset.
>=20
> Sonny

As to a dedicated jointer, both infeed and outfeed tables are normally para=
llel to one another. They need to be perfectly parallel. They are also o=
ffset, depending on how much wood thickness one wants to remove, and the in=
feed table is lowered by that much.

With the outfeed table lowered well below the infeed table (and cutter head=
), one can purposely joint an arch, along the edge. In this case, the tabl=
es still remain coplanar. =20

The arch can also be done if the back end of the outfeed table is lowered r=
elative to the front end, i.e., angled, hence, the two tables are no longer=
coplanar, since the outfeed has been angled. This technique is rarely us=
ed, except for larger than "normal" arches, because it's sometimes difficul=
t to realign the table, perfectly parallel, to the infeed table. Once set=
, one should not mess with the alignment (coplanar) of the tables.

Again, check that your fences are coplanar, despite their being offset. W=
hatever straight edge you use for this gauging, double check that its edge =
is, in fact, straight. ....and the offset is what it's suppose to be all =
along the whole length of the outfeed fence, relative to the infeed fence. =
Relative to the infeed fence, if the offset is not the same all along the=
full length of the outfeed fence, then your fences are not coplanar.

Sonny

On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 7:41:56 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> On 1/13/2018 6:21 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 7:04:56 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
> >> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 5:42:02 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 6:07:52 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
> >>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 3:10:56 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>>>> I'm trying to joint some 1 x 8 poplar on my router table so I can glue up
> >>>>> a panel. Each piece is 36" long. I have the out-feed fence 1/16" proud of
> >>>>> the in-feed fence.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I understand that you are supposed to keep pressure on the out-feed fence
> >>>>> but I can't seem to keep even pressure as I move the board along. At 36"
> >>>>> long I have to move my hands and when I do, I get a bump in the jointed
> >>>>> edge. I tried to clamp 2 feather boards to the table on the out-feed side,
> >>>>> but I'm still getting 2-3 bumps on the jointed edge because of hand
> >>>>> movement.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Neither fence nor the table is long enough to use push paddles for the
> >>>>> entire 36". Is that part of the problem?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Is there any way to get rid of the bumps so I can do a gap free glue-up?
> >>>>
> >>>> I have had good results clamping an aluminum straight edge to the top of the board and running a router along the side with a longish bit. I don't think I'd want to try using the router table for this purpose.
> >>>>
> >>>> Best of luck.
> >>>
> >>> That is an option and may be my next step. However, jointing on a router
> >>> table is fairly common. I suspect my long boards relative to the fence
> >>> may be the issue. I'm fine most of the time, but all it takes is a just
> >>> a little less pressure on out-feed fence to cause the bump.
> >>>
> >>> https://derbydad03.imgur.com/all/
> >>>
> >>> See here for one of many vids on jointing with a router table.
> >>>
> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6nql7mlSOo
> >>
> >> I am curious. Are you not able to glue from the table saw rips?
> >
> > It is my understanding that the best glue-ups come via this process:
> >
> > 1 - Joint one edge to make it perfect straight and square
>
> yes
>
> > 2 - Rip the board parallel on the TS with the jointed edge against the fence
>
> yes
>
> > 3 - Very lightly joint the ripped edge to remove any saw marks.
>
>
> NO! This introduces error, the same you are having problems with.

While the second pass may not be needed (more on that later) I don't see the
connection between the second jointing pass and my problem. My problem is
a pressure related problem that has nothing to do with a second pass. There
doesn't even need to be table saw in the room for my problem to occur. ;-)
I'm not even getting past Step 1.

> If
> you have tooth marks you need to set you saw up better and or be using a
> better blade. Joining the opposite side after the rip can cause the
> board to taper.
> >

They talk about a very light pass in this thread:

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/edge-jointing-both-sides-board-126194/

I don't have a jointer (obviously) but how can a light pass cause the
board to taper? Whether jointing on a router table or on a jointer, aren't
you taking off the same amount of wood along the entire length of the board?

On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 6:07:52 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 3:10:56 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > I'm trying to joint some 1 x 8 poplar on my router table so I can glue up
> > a panel. Each piece is 36" long. I have the out-feed fence 1/16" proud of
> > the in-feed fence.
> >
> > I understand that you are supposed to keep pressure on the out-feed fence
> > but I can't seem to keep even pressure as I move the board along. At 36"
> > long I have to move my hands and when I do, I get a bump in the jointed
> > edge. I tried to clamp 2 feather boards to the table on the out-feed side,
> > but I'm still getting 2-3 bumps on the jointed edge because of hand
> > movement.
> >
> > Neither fence nor the table is long enough to use push paddles for the
> > entire 36". Is that part of the problem?
> >
> > Is there any way to get rid of the bumps so I can do a gap free glue-up?
>
> I have had good results clamping an aluminum straight edge to the top of the board and running a router along the side with a longish bit. I don't think I'd want to try using the router table for this purpose.
>
> Best of luck.

That is an option and may be my next step. However, jointing on a router
table is fairly common. I suspect my long boards relative to the fence
may be the issue. I'm fine most of the time, but all it takes is a just
a little less pressure on out-feed fence to cause the bump.

https://derbydad03.imgur.com/all/

See here for one of many vids on jointing with a router table.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6nql7mlSOo

On 1/13/2018 10:05 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 10:06:05 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2018 16:21:56 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 7:04:56 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 5:42:02 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 6:07:52 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 3:10:56 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>>>> I'm trying to joint some 1 x 8 poplar on my router table so I can glue up
>>>>>>> a panel. Each piece is 36" long. I have the out-feed fence 1/16" proud of
>>>>>>> the in-feed fence.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I understand that you are supposed to keep pressure on the out-feed fence
>>>>>>> but I can't seem to keep even pressure as I move the board along. At 36"
>>>>>>> long I have to move my hands and when I do, I get a bump in the jointed
>>>>>>> edge. I tried to clamp 2 feather boards to the table on the out-feed side,
>>>>>>> but I'm still getting 2-3 bumps on the jointed edge because of hand
>>>>>>> movement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Neither fence nor the table is long enough to use push paddles for the
>>>>>>> entire 36". Is that part of the problem?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there any way to get rid of the bumps so I can do a gap free glue-up?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have had good results clamping an aluminum straight edge to the top of the board and running a router along the side with a longish bit. I don't think I'd want to try using the router table for this purpose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best of luck.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is an option and may be my next step. However, jointing on a router
>>>>> table is fairly common. I suspect my long boards relative to the fence
>>>>> may be the issue. I'm fine most of the time, but all it takes is a just
>>>>> a little less pressure on out-feed fence to cause the bump.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://derbydad03.imgur.com/all/
>>>>>
>>>>> See here for one of many vids on jointing with a router table.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6nql7mlSOo
>>>>
>>>> I am curious. Are you not able to glue from the table saw rips?
>>>
>>> It is my understanding that the best glue-ups come via this process:
>>>
>>> 1 - Joint one edge to make it perfect straight and square
>>> 2 - Rip the board parallel on the TS with the jointed edge against the fence
>>
>> 2a - Make sure you've used your Glue Line Rip blade.
>>
>>> 3 - Very lightly joint the ripped edge to remove any saw marks.
>>
>> Nope. No saw marks needed. See 2a (above).
>>
>>> My table saw leaves a very clean edge, but my router table leaves a edge
>>> that is buttery smooth.
>>
>> Not the best for a glue up.
>
> So you're saying that jointing with a router should be avoided?
>
> Why are there so many articles and videos from so many sources detailing the technique?
>

Many articles and videos are simply some one repeating what they saw or
heard, right or wrong. Joining with a router table is much like hand
nailing with nail gun nails. It can be done but is it the preferred or
best way to do it?

Why does a jointer work better than using a router table to join boards?

To begin with "mass", the jointer is heavy and absorbs vibration and is
typically all iron so that it does not flex. The router table is pretty
much light weight by comparison and not as stiff.

When you are joining on a jointer you use the weight of the material to
help hold the work against the cutter and indexing surfaces. Not to
mention it is easier to push down vs. sideways like on a RT. And you
can use your body weight to pus down on the work as it goes through a
jointer. Your weight is not used to keep the work against the cutter on
a router table.

One more thing on you technique that may not have been covered. When
you are running the work on the RT are you straightening the convex edge
of the board? If not you will be changing feed direction all through
the cut if the fence on both sides is not as long as the work.

On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 5:14:12 PM UTC-5, Sonny wrote:
> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 3:10:56 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>=20
> > At 36" long I have to move my hands and when I do, I get a bump in the=
=20
> jointed edge.
>=20
> Bumps, not indents. Can you sand the bumps off? I'm aware you prefer t=
o get the best results using the router, but sanding may be your last resor=
t. Unless someone has a resolution to your issue.
>=20
> I'm suspecting your fences are not in line, on the same plane, parallel..=
.. hence the "wobble" in the motion of the run through the cutter, i.e., it=
's not the movement of your hands or hands' position. Mis-aligned fences =
would make the ends of your finished (erred) cut be out of line with the r=
est of the length of the board/edge, despite any bumps, i.e., even if you s=
and them down. Does that make sense?
>=20
> Sonny

Either I'm not understanding what you are saying or you misunderstand me.
Not arguing, just trying to clarify.

Here's my side of it...let me know if I'm missing what you are saying.

When jointing on a router table, the fences are *supposed* to be mis-aligne=
d.
The out-feed fence is supposed to be about 1/16" closer to the operator tha=
n
the in-feed fence. The bit is then aligned flush with the face of the out-f=
eed
fence. With pressure kept on the out-feed table, you are supposed to
get an edge that is flat and perfect square with the face of the board,
just like on a jointer.

My problem is that I am not able to keep consistent pressure on the=20
out-feed fence as I reposition my hands. I get the bump shown below because
board is moving away from the bit just a little, therefore less than 1/16"=
=20
of wood is being removed until my hands are back in place applying pressure=
=20
against the fence.

https://i.imgur.com/hjSOHrP.jpg

While sanding or planing is a possible solution, there is always the danger=
=20
of taking off just a little to much and causing a gap. From what I've read
or watched, this method is supposed to work, so ether it's my technique
or my equipment.

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 11:02:00 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 1/13/2018 9:43 PM, Michael wrote:
>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 9:06:05 PM UTC-6, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2018 16:21:56 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 7:04:56 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 5:42:02 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 6:07:52 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 3:10:56 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>>>>> I'm trying to joint some 1 x 8 poplar on my router table so I can glue up
>>>>>>>> a panel. Each piece is 36" long. I have the out-feed fence 1/16" proud of
>>>>>>>> the in-feed fence.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I understand that you are supposed to keep pressure on the out-feed fence
>>>>>>>> but I can't seem to keep even pressure as I move the board along. At 36"
>>>>>>>> long I have to move my hands and when I do, I get a bump in the jointed
>>>>>>>> edge. I tried to clamp 2 feather boards to the table on the out-feed side,
>>>>>>>> but I'm still getting 2-3 bumps on the jointed edge because of hand
>>>>>>>> movement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Neither fence nor the table is long enough to use push paddles for the
>>>>>>>> entire 36". Is that part of the problem?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is there any way to get rid of the bumps so I can do a gap free glue-up?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have had good results clamping an aluminum straight edge to the top of the board and running a router along the side with a longish bit. I don't think I'd want to try using the router table for this purpose.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best of luck.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is an option and may be my next step. However, jointing on a router
>>>>>> table is fairly common. I suspect my long boards relative to the fence
>>>>>> may be the issue. I'm fine most of the time, but all it takes is a just
>>>>>> a little less pressure on out-feed fence to cause the bump.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://derbydad03.imgur.com/all/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See here for one of many vids on jointing with a router table.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6nql7mlSOo
>>>>>
>>>>> I am curious. Are you not able to glue from the table saw rips?
>>>>
>>>> It is my understanding that the best glue-ups come via this process:
>>>>
>>>> 1 - Joint one edge to make it perfect straight and square
>>>> 2 - Rip the board parallel on the TS with the jointed edge against the fence
>>>
>>> 2a - Make sure you've used your Glue Line Rip blade.
>>>
>>>> 3 - Very lightly joint the ripped edge to remove any saw marks.
>>>
>>> Nope. No saw marks needed. See 2a (above).
>>>
>>>> My table saw leaves a very clean edge, but my router table leaves a edge
>>>> that is buttery smooth.
>>>
>>> Not the best for a glue up.
>>
>> I wondered about that as well. A really smooth surface won't soak up the glue as well and you could squeeze out too much when clamping.
>>
>
>There is a lot of back and forth on this. Typical yellow/wood glue is
>not a good gap filler and works best with a minimum of product in the
>joint. Tooth marks create gaps.
>Additionally there is a lot of back and forth talk on starving a joint
>by squeezing glue out of it. Glue starvation as it is often called is
>when there is no or not enough glue on the surface to begin with not
>because you had squeeze out. You get squeeze out because there was too
>much glue in the joint to begin with. If you don't get squeeze out you
>have no indicator that the joint is tight. I have never had a joint
>fail because of too much clamping pressure and causing too much glue to
>squeeze out. Remember, a quality glue joint line is one that is almost
>invisible.

I don't think the issue is tooth marks (there shouldn't be any). The
issue is the "polished surface". The glue has to have something to
bite into. A polished surface doesn't work. Try using Titebond on
glass.

You're not taking a big bite out of the wood. I can't imagine that your h=
and control is not adequate for stable/controlled cutting. If the coplana=
r hypothesis is not the problem, then the only other things I can think of =
is a dull bit or it's turning in the wrong direction.

Sonny

On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 5:42:02 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 6:07:52 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 3:10:56 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > > I'm trying to joint some 1 x 8 poplar on my router table so I can glue up
> > > a panel. Each piece is 36" long. I have the out-feed fence 1/16" proud of
> > > the in-feed fence.
> > >
> > > I understand that you are supposed to keep pressure on the out-feed fence
> > > but I can't seem to keep even pressure as I move the board along. At 36"
> > > long I have to move my hands and when I do, I get a bump in the jointed
> > > edge. I tried to clamp 2 feather boards to the table on the out-feed side,
> > > but I'm still getting 2-3 bumps on the jointed edge because of hand
> > > movement.
> > >
> > > Neither fence nor the table is long enough to use push paddles for the
> > > entire 36". Is that part of the problem?
> > >
> > > Is there any way to get rid of the bumps so I can do a gap free glue-up?
> >
> > I have had good results clamping an aluminum straight edge to the top of the board and running a router along the side with a longish bit. I don't think I'd want to try using the router table for this purpose.
> >
> > Best of luck.
>
> That is an option and may be my next step. However, jointing on a router
> table is fairly common. I suspect my long boards relative to the fence
> may be the issue. I'm fine most of the time, but all it takes is a just
> a little less pressure on out-feed fence to cause the bump.
>
> https://derbydad03.imgur.com/all/
>
> See here for one of many vids on jointing with a router table.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6nql7mlSOo

I am curious. Are you not able to glue from the table saw rips?

On 1/14/2018 9:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 1:34:32 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>> DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 7:38:29 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 1/13/2018 5:37 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 5:55:47 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/13/2018 4:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>>>> I'm trying to joint some 1 x 8 poplar on my router table so I can glue up
>>>>>>> a panel. Each piece is 36" long. I have the out-feed fence 1/16" proud of
>>>>>>> the in-feed fence.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I understand that you are supposed to keep pressure on the out-feed fence
>>>>>>> but I can't seem to keep even pressure as I move the board along. At 36"
>>>>>>> long I have to move my hands and when I do, I get a bump in the jointed
>>>>>>> edge. I tried to clamp 2 feather boards to the table on the out-feed side,
>>>>>>> but I'm still getting 2-3 bumps on the jointed edge because of hand
>>>>>>> movement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Neither fence nor the table is long enough to use push paddles for the
>>>>>>> entire 36". Is that part of the problem?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there any way to get rid of the bumps so I can do a gap free glue-up?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have not joined on a router, but frequently use the router to create
>>>>>> profiles on picture frames. I have found that I get the best results
>>>>>> using feather boards on the in fed and out feed ends of the router.
>>>>>> This then keeps the piece firmly against the fence on both sides to the
>>>>>> bit for the length of the piece. With the fence I only have to keep the
>>>>>> piece flat against the table, which I fine easier that trying to keep it
>>>>>> against the fence and the table. Without the feather board I find the I
>>>>>> tend to get waves in the route.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The router table is a Sears router table to which I attache a standard
>>>>>> router. The fence is only about 18". I use a one piece fence with an
>>>>>> opening for the bit. I have had good results using this technique with
>>>>>> frames as long as 40 inches.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suspect that the same technique may work when joining.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Just FYI...It's jointing, not joining.
>>>>
>>>> I think it is joining.
>>>
>>> I'm pretty sure it's jointing
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jointer
>>> http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1&p=41801
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>> No, it us a little confusing. A jointer is a machine, what Lee Valley is
>> selling. The apparatus. To prepaid and join., is joining. :-)
>
> By "prepaid", I assume you mean "prepare". If that's the case, I have to
> respectfully disagree.

Yes, prepare. And NP if you disagree.

>
> Maybe we aren't talking about the same thing or using the words in the
> same context. I was responding to Keith's comments, which involve the
> preparation step only.
>
> First he said: "I have not joined on a router"
>
> Then, after discusses his use of feathers boards on the in-feed and out-feed
> side he said "I suspect that the same technique may work when joining."
>
> Therefore he is talking about the preparation of the edges only. As far as
> I can tell from everything I've read, the preparation step is called jointing.
>
> From the same Veritas page:
>
> "One of the great advantages of the Veritas router table fence is that it makes jointing easy." Jointing, as in the process, not the apparatus.
>
> From (if you trust wikipedia): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edge_jointing
>
> Here they discuss both the preparation process (jointing), the apparatus
> (jointer) and the subsequent operation of putting the components together
> (joining).
>
> "Edge jointing or just jointing is the process of making the edge of a wooden
> board straight and true in preparation for subsequent operations, often
> ultimately leading to joining two or more components together. Traditionally,
> jointing was performed using a jointer plane. Modern techniques include the
> use of a jointer machine, a hand held router and straight edge, or a table-
> mounted router. Although the process derives its name from the primary task of
> straightening an edge prior to joining, the term jointing is used whenever
> this process is performed, regardless of the application."
>
> From: http://www.finewoodworking.com/2014/02/19/jointing-boards-for-dead-flat-panel-glue-ups
>
> The title of article and video is "Jointing Boards for Dead-Flat Panel
> Glue-Ups"
>
> I could go on. Everything I can find refers to the process of prepping the
> board as jointing. Then you join them, creating a joint.
>
> I am certainly willing to admit being wrong, but then so must be all the
> sources that use the term jointing for the preparation process.
>

FWIW I used to call it jointing long ago....

But, https://www.festoolusa.com/products/domino-joining-system

We can leave it there. ;~)

On 1/14/2018 9:06 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 12:54:31 AM UTC-5, Sonny wrote:
>> On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 5:31:12 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> When jointing on a router table, the fences are *supposed* to be mis-aligned.
>>
>> Correct!
>>
>>> The out-feed fence is supposed to be about 1/16" closer to the operator than
>>> the in-feed fence.
>>
>> Correct!
>>
>>> The bit is then aligned flush with the face of the out-feed
>>> fence.
>>
>> Correct!
>>
>> I'm suspecting the two fences, outfeed and infeed, are not parallel, despite their being offset. They are not exactly coplanar. They need to be offset and they also need to be perfectly coplanar.
>
>
>>
>> I suspect your hand movement is giving you a misjudged idea of why you are having the bump. It's not your hand movement that's the (main, if at all) problem. Check to make sure your fences are coplanar, despite their being offset.
>
> Sonny, I'd love to agree with you here, but when I can hear the router change sounds
> and see the wood move away from the fence as I shift my hands, and then see the bump
> (or bumps) exactly where I expect them to be, I have to blame it on my hands.
>
> Sometimes I get one if I am ever, so so careful and slow, others times I get 2 or 3, but they
> are *always* positioned exactly where the wood is contacting the bit when my hands shift
> position.
>
>>
>> Sonny
>


There is also the possibility that you are applying too much pressure
and slightly bending the board as you are feeding it. If so the board
could spring back slightly if even pressure is not applied.