Saw Stop - Oregon

"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:cf8759ea-40db-46da-a6f0-ee7de522bd0e@t20g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 13, 7:53 pm, "LDosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
> http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2010/03/sawstop_saw_brak...
>
> Some of the comments track remarkably with what has been said here.

>This is absolutely frightening. That a small number of lawyers and
>liberal courts can make decisions like this.

>Also frightening is the comment made by the high school teacher who
>has them in his shop.

>"Two of them have been in John Stearns' woodshop class at Amity High
>School. Stearns applied for grants to pay for two SawStop saws in
>2008, which cost $7,400, about three times the price of other brands.
>"I would pay twice as much for those saws to keep my kids from losing
>their fingers," Stearns said. "Those two kids walked away without a
>scratch. That's amazing. I don't know if I would go back to any other
>saw."

>I know his intentions are good. But the kids who walk out of his shop
>class are not going to be scared enough. It used to piss me off when
>my high school shop teacher yelled about safety. I understand now.

>If they start filling the schools with that technology, guess
>what...............

>RonB

"The ultimate result of shielding men from folly is to fill the world with
fools."
Herbert Spencer, 1891

"Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote
>> I know his intentions are good. But the kids who walk out of his shop
>> class are not going to be scared enough. It used to piss me off when
>> my high school shop teacher yelled about safety. I understand now.
>>
>> If they start filling the schools with that technology, guess
>> what...............
>>
>> RonB
>
> So you think it is better to have a finger or two cut off to keep the kids
> attention up?


*I* think it's better if the shop teacher does a better job of instruction
and supervision.
He said he would pay twice as much.................
If it's the school's money?

Max

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 22:45:31 -0400, Maxwell Lol <[email protected]> wrote:

>"[email protected]" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> On Mar 15, 2:44 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On 3/15/2010 3:23 PM, Max wrote:
>>>
>>> > "hex" <[email protected]> wrote
>>> >> As far as the "don't make shop too safe" part of this whole thread
>>> >> tree. How about this: make the kids who trigger the safety buy new
>>> >> cartridges and new blades. That is, make the mistake a pain in the
>>> >> wallet -- just like real life.
>>>
>>> >> hex
>>> >> -30-
>>>
>>> > Now there's a worthwhile suggestion.
>>>
>>> The trouble is it ends up a pain in Daddy's wallet because most kids
>>> don't have that much money that they've earned.
>>
>> Nothing wrong with that. Daddy can then extract his pound...
>
>....Assuming there is a Dad present, of course.

If there is no daddy, then it's pretty hard to be a pain to daddy's wallet,
no?

[email protected] wrote:
>>
>> Nope. The evil is solely in the methods and effects of following
>> your heart. Many a woman marries for the love of money, to the
>> gratification of all involved.
>
> ...but in particular, the lawyers.

???

What would a lawyer do with a woman?

On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 11:41:20 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>> Does anyone remember the Mercedes Benz commercials about 10 to 15 years
>> ago where an MB engineer mentions the fact that they were the ones who
>> developed air-bag technology for their cars. He is asked why they did not
>> patent the invention and instead shared the technology with other car
>> manufacturers. He replies that "some inventions are too important not to
>> share". It seems to me that the Saw Stop people could do the same by
>> allowing their technology to be used by others at a small fixed price per
>> unit and still make a nice return on their design.
>>
>> Just wondering...
>>
>> Steve
>
>Actually before even attempting to build the SawStop the inventors did
>indeed offer the license to the other manufacturers. They of course having
>poor insight turnd down the offer.

You mean, having poor insight, they refused to pay their protection so had
their business burned.

On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:20:30 -0700, the infamous "Max"
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:

>"Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>> "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote
>>> I know his intentions are good. But the kids who walk out of his shop
>>> class are not going to be scared enough. It used to piss me off when
>>> my high school shop teacher yelled about safety. I understand now.
>>>
>>> If they start filling the schools with that technology, guess
>>> what...............
>>>
>>> RonB
>>
>> So you think it is better to have a finger or two cut off to keep the kids
>> attention up?
>
>
>*I* think it's better if the shop teacher does a better job of instruction
>and supervision.
>He said he would pay twice as much.................
>If it's the school's money?

What is a (known liberal) teacher supposed to say, Max?

And at double Gass' prices, that's 6x the going rate for a top-notch
saw. After hearing Gass discuss it in that video for the Oregonian, I
see that he couldn't care less about fingers. He's simply going after
(a minimum of) half the difference between the cost of a saw and the
cost of an amputation repair. It's all financial to him.

Typical speaking weasel crap. A pox on all their houses.

--
No matter how cynical you are, it is impossible to keep up.
--Lily Tomlin

"LDosser" wrote:

> It never was "the school's money".

Sorry, but as long as you are part of society, membership has a cost
that is paid for by the individual.

A portion of what you pay becomes "the school's money" and is their
income which allows them to function as specified by the board.

It never was an individual's money in the first place.


Lew

"CW" wrote:

> Less that 15% of US manufacturing is union. This "unions are ruining
> manufacturing in this country" line that some like to harp on is
> just BS.
-----------------------------------
Yabut it's such a convenient whipping boy.

Lew

"hex" <[email protected]> wrote

>As far as the "don't make shop too safe" part of this whole thread
>tree. How about this: make the kids who trigger the safety buy new
>cartridges and new blades. That is, make the mistake a pain in the
>wallet -- just like real life.

>hex
>-30-

Now there's a worthwhile suggestion.

Max

On 2010-03-15 10:48:34 -0400, "Leon" <[email protected]> said:

> Unions are ruining this country used to be true 20-30 years ago. Now,
> they have actually succeeded to help ruin the economy.

Don't forget the big boys.

Here's the smoking gun(s):

http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/10/20/the-secret-paulson-goldman-meeting/
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/repo-105-scam-how-lehman-fooled-everyone-including-allegedly-dick-fuld-and-how-other-banks-a
http://lehmanreport.jenner.com/
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/business/13lehman.html?ref=business

Bunch

o' links here:
http://www.metafilter.com/90063/Repo-Lehmen

Bottom line: Paulson and Bernanke are stinkers.

On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 11:44:57 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>> "Steve" <[email protected]> wrote
>>> Does anyone remember the Mercedes Benz commercials about 10 to 15 years
>>> ago where an MB engineer mentions the fact that they were the ones who
>>> developed air-bag technology for their cars. He is asked why they did not
>>> patent the invention and instead shared the technology with other car
>>> manufacturers. He replies that "some inventions are too important not to
>>> share". It seems to me that the Saw Stop people could do the same by
>>> allowing their technology to be used by others at a small fixed price per
>>> unit and still make a nice return on their design.
>>>
>>> Just wondering...
>>>
>>> Steve
>>
>> I see the problem.
>>
>> "SawStop asks for licensing fees of 3 percent of the saw's wholesale price
>> to start. As the device becomes more widespread, the fees could increase
>> to 8 percent. The price of table saws range from $200 to several thousand
>> dollars."
>>
>> If he was closer to the 3% than the 8% it may fly, but adding a couple
>> hundred bucks for the actual hardware and then 8% on top, the saw becomes
>> uncompetitive.
>
>On the other hand, if you customer base is not buying your product because
>it lacks this popular safety feature they also become uncompetitive.

Choice is a good thing. I have no issue with SawStop making that argument to
consumers. They didn't succeed with their 100% margin over a Unisaw, though.

>If the unions would bow out and let the manufacturers pay what the skill of
>putting together a TS is "actually" worth the company could pay the license
>fee and make a profit, probably a larger profit. If your productions costs
>are in excess to start with it is also very hard to be competitive.

OTOH, the unions could force a higher wage and manufacturing might move to
China. Oh, wait.

On Mar 15, 7:13=A0am, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
> > I know his intentions are good. =A0But the kids who walk out of his sho=
p
> > class are not going to be scared enough. =A0It used to piss me off when
> > my high school shop teacher yelled about safety. =A0I understand now.
>
> > I think you are perhaps thinking that knowing that the blade will not
> > cut your digits off will also not be scary. =A0I highly suspect that
> > the blade spinning at 100 mph is still going to be intemidating.
>
> I agree Leon. =A0The arguement that the saw won't be scarey enough does n=
ot
> seem to work on me. =A0I've always held - or been taught the idea that on=
e
> does not put his confidence in "safety" devices, and assumes that they ca=
n
> or will fail, leaving you exposed to the original danger. =A0I don't beli=
eve
> that the shop classes that have installed Saw Stop saws are teaching thei=
r
> kids that they don't have to worry about anything becasue it's a Saw Stop=
.
> I suspect quite the opposite is true.

Don't tell the kids about the safety feature. But of course you can't
yell at the kiddies to get the point across anymore. That would
damage their self esteem.

> Having said that, I don't believe the quoted statistics about the number =
of
> incidents that Saw Stop has prevented.

On Mar 14, 11:41=A0am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > Does anyone remember the Mercedes Benz commercials about 10 to 15 years
> > ago where an MB engineer mentions the fact that they were the ones who
> > developed air-bag technology for their cars. He is asked why they did n=
ot
> > patent the invention and instead shared the technology with other car
> > manufacturers. He replies that "some inventions are too important not t=
o
> > share". It seems to me that the Saw Stop people could do the same by
> > allowing their technology to be used by others at a small fixed price p=
er
> > unit and still make a nice return on their design.
>
> > Just wondering...
>
> > Steve
>
> Actually before even attempting to build the SawStop the inventors did
> indeed offer the license to the other manufacturers. =A0They of course ha=
ving
> poor insight turnd down the offer.

IIRC, lawyers were at the heart of the decision to turn down the
technology. Paraphrasing: "If you put this technology in some of your
saws, then you are admitting that the rest are inherently
dangerous." What frosted me was that the fine folks at SawStop
tried to use the Consumer Product Safety folks to jam this down our
throats.

Neither side was right; consumers get hosed; typical state of
affairs.

As far as the "don't make shop too safe" part of this whole thread
tree. How about this: make the kids who trigger the safety buy new
cartridges and new blades. That is, make the mistake a pain in the
wallet -- just like real life.

hex
-30-

On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:50:43 -0800, "LDosser" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>On Mar 13, 10:12 pm, "Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>> > I know his intentions are good. But the kids who walk out of his shop
>> > class are not going to be scared enough. It used to piss me off when
>> > my high school shop teacher yelled about safety. I understand now.
>>
>> > If they start filling the schools with that technology, guess
>> > what...............
>>
>> > RonB
>>
>> So you think it is better to have a finger or two cut off to keep the kids
>> attention up?
>
>No. But I went through two years of high school shop and one college
>cabinet course where safety was stressed on a continuous basis. I
>never knew of a student who had a serious problem, but I know problems
>do happen.
>
>My first few encounters with a Unisaw scared the hell out of me, and I
>believe that was a very health emotion at that point of my life. But
>if the kid walks up to a machine that he/she knows cannot injure, how
>do they learn respect? Frankly, it is difficult enough to teach some
>of these kids respect anyway. Some of them will learn when the walk
>onto a job site with a conventional machine, then their boss will get
>his ass sued off because they did something stupid.

My Unisaw still scares me. I have a *very* healthy respect for that chunk of
iron. So far it hasn't tried any nasties, like my RAS has.

>Even worse, they might not learn at all. The budget crunches are
>making it difficult enough to keep wood technology in the school's
>curriculums. Our school has had a wood-shop since the early 1950's.
>The lone remaining, ancient Unisaw is on its last legs (I swear it is
>the same one I used in the late 60's). The teacher went to the board
>with a proposal to buy a couple of new Grizzly's that would set them
>back about $2,300. Guess what? The school counselor advised her to
>hold off because, guess what?.... the court cases regarding Saw-Stop.
>She said if she has to cough up $6-7K, she is going to have to shut
>down the wood shop and go strictly to metal fab and welding. Then they
>will be open to litigation when some day-dreaming kid forgets to pull
>the hood down and injures his or her eyes.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>The school mentioned in the article (Amity, OR) sure isn't going to come up
>with that kind of money either.

That's going to be the result. No one will be able to afford the hobby.

"[email protected]" <[email protected]> writes:

> On Mar 15, 2:44 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 3/15/2010 3:23 PM, Max wrote:
>>
>> > "hex" <[email protected]> wrote
>> >> As far as the "don't make shop too safe" part of this whole thread
>> >> tree. How about this: make the kids who trigger the safety buy new
>> >> cartridges and new blades. That is, make the mistake a pain in the
>> >> wallet -- just like real life.
>>
>> >> hex
>> >> -30-
>>
>> > Now there's a worthwhile suggestion.
>>
>> The trouble is it ends up a pain in Daddy's wallet because most kids
>> don't have that much money that they've earned.
>
> Nothing wrong with that. Daddy can then extract his pound...

....Assuming there is a Dad present, of course.

HeyBub wrote:

> Interesting idea. Several years ago, our betters decreed that a
> washing machine must stop its spin cycle within just few seconds (I
> think three or five) after the lid is opened. Wonder why the safety
> mavens haven't decreed similar for table saws and the like?
>

Yeah - no kiddin'. I just hate it when I open the lid on my table saw and
it don't stop spinning. Pisses me right off.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Mar 14, 12:32=A0pm, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> Nothing more than a self serving, liberal, pouring of perfumed
> altruistic spin on a pile of bullshit in an attempt to mask the stink of
> GREED.
>

Really now. I'd be interested to discover how you really feel.
.
.
.
*still laffin' me arse off*

"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Less that 15% of US manufacturing is union. This "unions are ruining
> manufacturing in this country" line that some like to harp on is just BS.


Unions are ruining this country used to be true 20-30 years ago. Now, they
have actually succeeded to help ruin the economy.

Less that 15% of US manufacturing is union. This "unions are ruining
manufacturing in this country" line that some like to harp on is just BS.

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> If the unions would bow out and let the manufacturers pay what the skill
> of putting together a TS is "actually" worth the company could pay the
> license fee and make a profit, probably a larger profit. If your
> productions costs are in excess to start with it is also very hard to be
> competitive.
>
>

Steve wrote:
>
> Does anyone remember the Mercedes Benz commercials about 10 to 15
> years ago where an MB engineer mentions the fact that they were the
> ones who developed air-bag technology for their cars. He is asked why
> they did not patent the invention and instead shared the technology
> with other car manufacturers. He replies that "some inventions are
> too important not to share". It seems to me that the Saw Stop people
> could do the same by allowing their technology to be used by others
> at a small fixed price per unit and still make a nice return on their
> design.

Even before that. Ben Franklin did not patent the lightning rod, the
Franklin stove, bifocals, the vehicle odometer, and, to bring it up to date,
Daylight Savings Time, for exactly the same reason.

Swingman wrote:
> Nothing more than a self serving, liberal, pouring of perfumed
> altruistic spin on a pile of bullshit in an attempt to mask the stink
> of GREED.

"Greed" is good. As one great worthy of antiquity said: "If not for greed,
no man would marry, build a home, or father a child."

If anything, it is the RESULT of some greed that is bad, not the inclination
itself.

"LDosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:50:43 -0800, "LDosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>The school mentioned in the article (Amity, OR) sure isn't going to come
>>>up
>>>with that kind of money either.
>>
>> That's going to be the result. No one will be able to afford the hobby.
>
> And more shop classes shut down.
>
>
Shop classes have been being eleminated long, long, long before the more
expensive safety equipment was introduced.

"LDosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message

>> But the saw stop technology does not stop kick back which is still a real
>> thread if the riving knife is not used, like during a dado operation.
>>
>
> Does the SawStop work at all with a dado blade or dado set?

Yes there is a special cartridge and the SawStop works even after you have
turned the motor off. When I first learned about the SawStop about 10 years
ago I inquired to see if it works during coast down. It does.

"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote
> I know his intentions are good. But the kids who walk out of his shop
> class are not going to be scared enough. It used to piss me off when
> my high school shop teacher yelled about safety. I understand now.
>
> If they start filling the schools with that technology, guess
> what...............
>
> RonB

So you think it is better to have a finger or two cut off to keep the kids
attention up?

RonB <[email protected]> wrote in news:cf8759ea-40db-46da-a6f0-
[email protected]:

> On Mar 13, 7:53 pm, "LDosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2010/03/sawstop_saw_brak...
>>
>> Some of the comments track remarkably with what has been said here.
>
> This is absolutely frightening. That a small number of lawyers and
> liberal courts can make decisions like this.
>
> Also frightening is the comment made by the high school teacher who
> has them in his shop.
>
> "Two of them have been in John Stearns' woodshop class at Amity High
> School. Stearns applied for grants to pay for two SawStop saws in
> 2008, which cost $7,400, about three times the price of other brands.
> "I would pay twice as much for those saws to keep my kids from losing
> their fingers," Stearns said. "Those two kids walked away without a
> scratch. That's amazing. I don't know if I would go back to any other
> saw."
>
> I know his intentions are good. But the kids who walk out of his shop
> class are not going to be scared enough. It used to piss me off when
> my high school shop teacher yelled about safety. I understand now.
>
> If they start filling the schools with that technology, guess
> what...............
>
> RonB
>

Does anyone remember the Mercedes Benz commercials about 10 to 15 years
ago where an MB engineer mentions the fact that they were the ones who
developed air-bag technology for their cars. He is asked why they did not
patent the invention and instead shared the technology with other car
manufacturers. He replies that "some inventions are too important not to
share". It seems to me that the Saw Stop people could do the same by
allowing their technology to be used by others at a small fixed price per
unit and still make a nice return on their design.

Just wondering...

Steve

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 19:25:24 -0700, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Less that 15% of US manufacturing is union. This "unions are ruining
>>manufacturing in this country" line that some like to harp on is just BS.
>
> How's GM working out for ya?


Ironically, I have a neighbor that has lots of famly in the Michigan area
and for generations have made their living with one of the Big 3. They are
now out of jobs, in rough shape, and have indicated that they have no one to
blame but themselves. They let the Union take care of them all these years
and never really learned how to survive on a wage that their skills were
actually worth.

On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 19:25:24 -0700, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Less that 15% of US manufacturing is union. This "unions are ruining
>manufacturing in this country" line that some like to harp on is just BS.

How's GM working out for ya?

>"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>> If the unions would bow out and let the manufacturers pay what the skill
>> of putting together a TS is "actually" worth the company could pay the
>> license fee and make a profit, probably a larger profit. If your
>> productions costs are in excess to start with it is also very hard to be
>> competitive.
>>
>>
>

Leon wrote:
> "LDosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>>> But the saw stop technology does not stop kick back which is still
>>> a real thread if the riving knife is not used, like during a dado
>>> operation.
>>
>> Does the SawStop work at all with a dado blade or dado set?
>
> Yes there is a special cartridge and the SawStop works even after you
> have turned the motor off. When I first learned about the SawStop
> about 10 years ago I inquired to see if it works during coast down. It
> does.

Interesting idea. Several years ago, our betters decreed that a washing
machine must stop its spin cycle within just few seconds (I think three or
five) after the lid is opened. Wonder why the safety mavens haven't decreed
similar for table saws and the like?

Shhh! Don't tell anybody!

On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:51:43 -0800 (PST), the infamous RonB
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:

>On Mar 13, 7:53 pm, "LDosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2010/03/sawstop_saw_brak...
>>
>> Some of the comments track remarkably with what has been said here.
>
>This is absolutely frightening. That a small number of lawyers and
>liberal courts can make decisions like this.
>
>Also frightening is the comment made by the high school teacher who
>has them in his shop.
>
>"Two of them have been in John Stearns' woodshop class at Amity High
>School. Stearns applied for grants to pay for two SawStop saws in
>2008, which cost $7,400, about three times the price of other brands.
>"I would pay twice as much for those saws to keep my kids from losing
>their fingers," Stearns said. "Those two kids walked away without a
>scratch. That's amazing. I don't know if I would go back to any other
>saw."

They've gone up? They used to be "only" double the price of an
expensive saw. That effin', greedy, bastard attorney. (Yes, I'm being
redundant there.) And that brainless oaf, Stearns, playing right into
the other's hands. Sickening.


>I know his intentions are good. But the kids who walk out of his shop
>class are not going to be scared enough. It used to piss me off when
>my high school shop teacher yelled about safety. I understand now.
>
>If they start filling the schools with that technology, guess
>what...............

All the graduates will get nicknames within 2 years.
'Lefty', 'Stubby', or 'Stumpy', I guess.

--
I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study
mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and
philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation,
commerce, and agriculture, in order to give their children a right to
study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and
porcelain.
-- John Adams

On Mar 15, 2:44=A0pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3/15/2010 3:23 PM, Max wrote:
>
> > "hex" <[email protected]> wrote
> >> As far as the "don't make shop too safe" part of this whole thread
> >> tree. How about this: make the kids who trigger the safety buy new
> >> cartridges and new blades. That is, make the mistake a pain in the
> >> wallet -- just like real life.
>
> >> hex
> >> -30-
>
> > Now there's a worthwhile suggestion.
>
> The trouble is it ends up a pain in Daddy's wallet because most kids
> don't have that much money that they've earned.

Nothing wrong with that. Daddy can then extract his pound...

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> Having said that, I don't believe the quoted statistics about the number
> of incidents that Saw Stop has prevented.


I have not seen the numbers lately but in 1989 I whacked the end of my thumb
off on the TS. It was coasting down to a stop after performing a dado
operation. The ER nurses saw the cut and asked if I did that on a TS. They
also indicated that they pretty much saw this type accident on a daily
basis.

On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 11:41:20 -0500, the infamous "Leon"
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:

>
>"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>> Does anyone remember the Mercedes Benz commercials about 10 to 15 years
>> ago where an MB engineer mentions the fact that they were the ones who
>> developed air-bag technology for their cars. He is asked why they did not
>> patent the invention and instead shared the technology with other car
>> manufacturers. He replies that "some inventions are too important not to
>> share". It seems to me that the Saw Stop people could do the same by
>> allowing their technology to be used by others at a small fixed price per
>> unit and still make a nice return on their design.
>>
>> Just wondering...
>>
>> Steve
>
>Actually before even attempting to build the SawStop the inventors did
>indeed offer the license to the other manufacturers. They of course having
>poor insight turnd down the offer.

Did you see how he wanted to "share" that invention?
Altruistic he AIN'T! MB he AIN'T!

--
No matter how cynical you are, it is impossible to keep up.
--Lily Tomlin

On Mar 13, 7:53=A0pm, "LDosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
> http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2010/03/sawstop_saw_brak...
>
> Some of the comments track remarkably with what has been said here.

This is absolutely frightening. That a small number of lawyers and
liberal courts can make decisions like this.

Also frightening is the comment made by the high school teacher who
has them in his shop.

"Two of them have been in John Stearns' woodshop class at Amity High
School. Stearns applied for grants to pay for two SawStop saws in
2008, which cost $7,400, about three times the price of other brands.
"I would pay twice as much for those saws to keep my kids from losing
their fingers," Stearns said. "Those two kids walked away without a
scratch. That's amazing. I don't know if I would go back to any other
saw."

I know his intentions are good. But the kids who walk out of his shop
class are not going to be scared enough. It used to piss me off when
my high school shop teacher yelled about safety. I understand now.

If they start filling the schools with that technology, guess
what...............

RonB

On Mar 14, 6:26=A0pm, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
> > Nothing more than a self serving, liberal, pouring of perfumed
> > altruistic spin on a pile of bullshit in an attempt to mask the stink
> > of GREED.
>
> "Greed" is good. As one great worthy of antiquity said: "If not for greed=
,
> no man would marry, build a home, or father a child."
>
> If anything, it is the RESULT of some greed that is bad, not the inclinat=
ion
> itself.

IOW, Money is not the root of all evil... the love for it is.

Leon wrote:

>
> I know his intentions are good. But the kids who walk out of his shop
> class are not going to be scared enough. It used to piss me off when
> my high school shop teacher yelled about safety. I understand now.
>
> I think you are perhaps thinking that knowing that the blade will not
> cut your digits off will also not be scary. I highly suspect that
> the blade spinning at 100 mph is still going to be intemidating.

I agree Leon. The arguement that the saw won't be scarey enough does not
seem to work on me. I've always held - or been taught the idea that one
does not put his confidence in "safety" devices, and assumes that they can
or will fail, leaving you exposed to the original danger. I don't believe
that the shop classes that have installed Saw Stop saws are teaching their
kids that they don't have to worry about anything becasue it's a Saw Stop.
I suspect quite the opposite is true.

Having said that, I don't believe the quoted statistics about the number of
incidents that Saw Stop has prevented.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 23:12:45 -0500, the infamous "Ed Pawlowski"
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:

>
>
>"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote
>> I know his intentions are good. But the kids who walk out of his shop
>> class are not going to be scared enough. It used to piss me off when
>> my high school shop teacher yelled about safety. I understand now.
>>
>> If they start filling the schools with that technology, guess
>> what...............
>>
>> RonB
>
>So you think it is better to have a finger or two cut off to keep the kids
>attention up?

If it keeps the rest of the class (and everyone each of them knows)
safer for the rest of all their lives, HELL YES!

Tough love.

P.S: I'm still waiting for one of the punks to say "Oh, this tablesaw
can't hurt me, huh? We'll see about that."

--
No matter how cynical you are, it is impossible to keep up.
--Lily Tomlin

On Mar 14, 10:37=A0am, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mar 14, 12:32=A0pm, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Nothing more than a self serving, liberal, pouring of perfumed
> > altruistic spin on a pile of bullshit in an attempt to mask the stink o=
f
> > GREED.
>
> Really now. I'd be interested to discover how you really feel.
> .
> .
> .
> *still laffin' me arse off*

I was unclear as well, Karl.

Care to elaborate?


*snort*

And for the rest of you, I do certainly hope that your kids are
permanently hurt in a car wreck (kind of like getting fingers or hands
cut off in a saw) to keep them safe in their later years. Since
something like 93% of all car accidents are from careless errors, a
maiming accident could be of real value. That would help teach the
rest of the folks in your family (maybe even their friends!) about car
safety. That in turn might help keep me and mine safe. Thanks!

Or maybe in a moment of teenage distraction (we KNOW that never
happened to anyone here!) one of your children could lose half a hand
in a saw and be the proud example of tough love to teach the other
kids. That way he could go through life from age 16 a cripple.
BUT.... he would really *understand* saw safety, so you know the price
was right! After all, NO ONE should be allowed a lapse of reason or
attention. Especially not a kid. And if he has his whole life in
front of him, what could be better than to lose a hand early on to
give a lesson that would last a lifetime?

I can see a lot of good sense to being maimed to show tough love. I
don't personally know anyone that wouldn't want their kids to be in as
safe an environment as possible, but I applaud the kick ass
sonofabitches HERE that are glad to see the children of others
sacrificed to make them satisfied. No moral or ethical standard can
be too high when someone else is paying the freight, right?

Following your logic, as long as you tough love hard asses toe the
line at nothing, you could make this world a lot safer. Make sure you
follow this through though, and make sure your families are in this
with all safety devices in their everyday lives.. When a dumb, silly,
or careless mistake costs an eye, an arm, a hand, or a life (theirs or
someone else's) make sure you pat them on the back let them know it
was for their own good!

While I don't want to lose a body part or function of one to make a
point, I would be more than glad to hear or better yet see any
permanent, crippling or at least debilitating damage that you guys
have that you felt was particularly helpful in your personal
development. This doesn't have to be woodworking related.

I would love to see a proudly displayed stump of yours or maybe a
family member that you (and them) feel that the lesson learned from a
second of inattention or simple bad judgment was worth the price paid.

Pics or it didn't happen.

Robert

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 07:17:02 -0500, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Robatoy wrote:
>> On Mar 14, 6:26 pm, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Swingman wrote:
>>>> Nothing more than a self serving, liberal, pouring of perfumed
>>>> altruistic spin on a pile of bullshit in an attempt to mask the
>>>> stink of GREED.
>>>
>>> "Greed" is good. As one great worthy of antiquity said: "If not for
>>> greed, no man would marry, build a home, or father a child."
>>>
>>> If anything, it is the RESULT of some greed that is bad, not the
>>> inclination itself.
>>
>> IOW, Money is not the root of all evil... the love for it is.
>
>Nope. The evil is solely in the methods and effects of following your heart.
>Many a woman marries for the love of money, to the gratification of all
>involved.

...but in particular, the lawyers.

On Mar 13, 10:12=A0pm, "Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > I know his intentions are good. =A0But the kids who walk out of his sho=
p
> > class are not going to be scared enough. =A0It used to piss me off when
> > my high school shop teacher yelled about safety. =A0I understand now.
>
> > If they start filling the schools with that technology, guess
> > what...............
>
> > RonB
>
> So you think it is better to have a finger or two cut off to keep the kid=
s
> attention up?

No. But I went through two years of high school shop and one college
cabinet course where safety was stressed on a continuous basis. I
never knew of a student who had a serious problem, but I know problems
do happen.

My first few encounters with a Unisaw scared the hell out of me, and I
believe that was a very health emotion at that point of my life. But
if the kid walks up to a machine that he/she knows cannot injure, how
do they learn respect? Frankly, it is difficult enough to teach some
of these kids respect anyway. Some of them will learn when the walk
onto a job site with a conventional machine, then their boss will get
his ass sued off because they did something stupid.

Even worse, they might not learn at all. The budget crunches are
making it difficult enough to keep wood technology in the school's
curriculums. Our school has had a wood-shop since the early 1950's.
The lone remaining, ancient Unisaw is on its last legs (I swear it is
the same one I used in the late 60's). The teacher went to the board
with a proposal to buy a couple of new Grizzly's that would set them
back about $2,300. Guess what? The school counselor advised her to
hold off because, guess what?.... the court cases regarding Saw-Stop.
She said if she has to cough up $6-7K, she is going to have to shut
down the wood shop and go strictly to metal fab and welding. Then they
will be open to litigation when some day-dreaming kid forgets to pull
the hood down and injures his or her eyes.

I just think we should LEARN safety without the government standing
over us. We are becoming so regulated, a damned pocket knife will
cost $3000 one of these days.

RonB

On Mar 14, 11:39=A0am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
=A0I highly suspect that the blade spinning at 100 mph is still going to
be intimidating.


I would like to think so. But remember, we have a lot of high school
shop class aged folks who are not intimidated by driving a 3,500 car
at 65 mph while texting.

RonB.

Nothing more than a self serving, liberal, pouring of perfumed
altruistic spin on a pile of bullshit in an attempt to mask the stink of
GREED.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 3/13/2010 9:51 PM, Steve wrote:

> Does anyone remember the Mercedes Benz commercials about 10 to 15 years
> ago where an MB engineer mentions the fact that they were the ones who
> developed air-bag technology for their cars. He is asked why they did not
> patent the invention and instead shared the technology with other car
> manufacturers. He replies that "some inventions are too important not to
> share". It seems to me that the Saw Stop people could do the same by
> allowing their technology to be used by others at a small fixed price per
> unit and still make a nice return on their design.
>
> Just wondering...

Lawyers are trained to view life as a "zero sum game" - for them there
is no "win-win".

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

"Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>> "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote
>>> I know his intentions are good. But the kids who walk out of his shop
>>> class are not going to be scared enough. It used to piss me off when
>>> my high school shop teacher yelled about safety. I understand now.
>>>
>>> If they start filling the schools with that technology, guess
>>> what...............
>>>
>>> RonB
>>
>> So you think it is better to have a finger or two cut off to keep the
>> kids attention up?
>
>
> *I* think it's better if the shop teacher does a better job of instruction
> and supervision.
> He said he would pay twice as much.................
> If it's the school's money?
>
> Max


It never was "the school's money".

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 20:48:47 -0800, "LDosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> "Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>>> I know his intentions are good. But the kids who walk out of his shop
>>>>> class are not going to be scared enough. It used to piss me off when
>>>>> my high school shop teacher yelled about safety. I understand now.
>>>>>
>>>>> If they start filling the schools with that technology, guess
>>>>> what...............
>>>>>
>>>>> RonB
>>>>
>>>> So you think it is better to have a finger or two cut off to keep the
>>>> kids attention up?
>>>
>>>
>>> *I* think it's better if the shop teacher does a better job of
>>> instruction
>>> and supervision.
>>> He said he would pay twice as much.................
>>> If it's the school's money?
>>>
>>> Max
>>
>>
>>It never was "the school's money".
>
> Ain't his either.


Zackly!

"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Mar 13, 10:12 pm, "Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > I know his intentions are good. But the kids who walk out of his shop
> > class are not going to be scared enough. It used to piss me off when
> > my high school shop teacher yelled about safety. I understand now.
>
> > If they start filling the schools with that technology, guess
> > what...............
>
> > RonB
>
> So you think it is better to have a finger or two cut off to keep the kids
> attention up?

No. But I went through two years of high school shop and one college
cabinet course where safety was stressed on a continuous basis. I
never knew of a student who had a serious problem, but I know problems
do happen.

My first few encounters with a Unisaw scared the hell out of me, and I
believe that was a very health emotion at that point of my life. But
if the kid walks up to a machine that he/she knows cannot injure, how
do they learn respect? Frankly, it is difficult enough to teach some
of these kids respect anyway. Some of them will learn when the walk
onto a job site with a conventional machine, then their boss will get
his ass sued off because they did something stupid.

Even worse, they might not learn at all. The budget crunches are
making it difficult enough to keep wood technology in the school's
curriculums. Our school has had a wood-shop since the early 1950's.
The lone remaining, ancient Unisaw is on its last legs (I swear it is
the same one I used in the late 60's). The teacher went to the board
with a proposal to buy a couple of new Grizzly's that would set them
back about $2,300. Guess what? The school counselor advised her to
hold off because, guess what?.... the court cases regarding Saw-Stop.
She said if she has to cough up $6-7K, she is going to have to shut
down the wood shop and go strictly to metal fab and welding. Then they
will be open to litigation when some day-dreaming kid forgets to pull
the hood down and injures his or her eyes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The school mentioned in the article (Amity, OR) sure isn't going to come up
with that kind of money either.

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:cf8759ea-40db-46da-a6f0-ee7de522bd0e@t20g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 13, 7:53 pm, "LDosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> snip
>
>
> "Two of them have been in John Stearns' woodshop class at Amity High
> School. Stearns applied for grants to pay for two SawStop saws in
> 2008, which cost $7,400, about three times the price of other brands.
> "I would pay twice as much for those saws to keep my kids from losing
> their fingers," Stearns said. "Those two kids walked away without a
> scratch. That's amazing. I don't know if I would go back to any other
> saw."
>
> I know his intentions are good. But the kids who walk out of his shop
> class are not going to be scared enough. It used to piss me off when
> my high school shop teacher yelled about safety. I understand now.
>
> I think you are perhaps thinking that knowing that the blade will not cut
> your digits off will also not be scary. I highly suspect that the blade
> spinning at 100 mph is still going to be intemidating.
>
>


By the time I got to shop class, I'd injured myself enough with hand tools
to be leery of anything connected to the power grid. Particularly since I'd
also had a couple electric shocks by then also. :(

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:50:43 -0800, "LDosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>The school mentioned in the article (Amity, OR) sure isn't going to come
>>up
>>with that kind of money either.
>
> That's going to be the result. No one will be able to afford the hobby.

And more shop classes shut down.

On 3/15/2010 3:23 PM, Max wrote:
> "hex" <[email protected]> wrote
>> As far as the "don't make shop too safe" part of this whole thread
>> tree. How about this: make the kids who trigger the safety buy new
>> cartridges and new blades. That is, make the mistake a pain in the
>> wallet -- just like real life.
>
>> hex
>> -30-
>
> Now there's a worthwhile suggestion.

The trouble is it ends up a pain in Daddy's wallet because most kids
don't have that much money that they've earned.

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "LDosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:50:43 -0800, "LDosser" <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>The school mentioned in the article (Amity, OR) sure isn't going to come
>>>>up
>>>>with that kind of money either.
>>>
>>> That's going to be the result. No one will be able to afford the hobby.
>>
>> And more shop classes shut down.
>>
>>
> Shop classes have been being eleminated long, long, long before the more
> expensive safety equipment was introduced.
>

Apparently Not at Amity High School. And there are probably others.

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:ffa4bac6-23dc-4e6d-845e-b2c10ce2511a@g26g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 14, 11:39 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I highly suspect that the blade spinning at 100 mph is still going to
> be intimidating.
>
>
> I would like to think so. But remember, we have a lot of high school
> shop class aged folks who are not intimidated by driving a 3,500 car
> at 65 mph while texting.
>
>
> But the saw stop technology does not stop kick back which is still a real
> thread if the riving knife is not used, like during a dado operation.
>

Does the SawStop work at all with a dado blade or dado set?

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 20:54:13 -0700, "LDosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:ffa4bac6-23dc-4e6d-845e-b2c10ce2511a@g26g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Mar 14, 11:39 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> I highly suspect that the blade spinning at 100 mph is still going to
>>> be intimidating.
>>>
>>>
>>> I would like to think so. But remember, we have a lot of high school
>>> shop class aged folks who are not intimidated by driving a 3,500 car
>>> at 65 mph while texting.
>>>
>>>
>>> But the saw stop technology does not stop kick back which is still a
>>> real
>>> thread if the riving knife is not used, like during a dado operation.
>>>
>>
>>Does the SawStop work at all with a dado blade or dado set?
>
> From <http://www.sawstop.com/howitworks/sawstop_whitepaper.pdf>:
>
> "The brake mechanism is shown in the drawing to the right. The arrow
> shows how the aluminum brake pawl pivots into the teeth of the blade.
> The brake pawl is part of a replaceable cartridge that includes the
> spring, fuse wire and electronics necessary to burn the fuse wire.
> An optional dado cartridge provides the same protection for dado
> cuts.
>
> I wonder how easy it is to change to the dado blade set and cartridge?


I don't suppose they do a wobble blade.

On 3/16/2010 5:30 AM, LDosser wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 20:54:13 -0700, "LDosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>> "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:ffa4bac6-23dc-4e6d-845e-b2c10ce2511a@g26g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 14, 11:39 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> I highly suspect that the blade spinning at 100 mph is still going to
>>>> be intimidating.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would like to think so. But remember, we have a lot of high school
>>>> shop class aged folks who are not intimidated by driving a 3,500 car
>>>> at 65 mph while texting.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But the saw stop technology does not stop kick back which is still a
>>>> real
>>>> thread if the riving knife is not used, like during a dado operation.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Does the SawStop work at all with a dado blade or dado set?
>>
>> From <http://www.sawstop.com/howitworks/sawstop_whitepaper.pdf>:
>>
>> "The brake mechanism is shown in the drawing to the right. The arrow
>> shows how the aluminum brake pawl pivots into the teeth of the blade.
>> The brake pawl is part of a replaceable cartridge that includes the
>> spring, fuse wire and electronics necessary to burn the fuse wire.
>> An optional dado cartridge provides the same protection for dado
>> cuts.
>>
>> I wonder how easy it is to change to the dado blade set and cartridge?
>
>
> I don't suppose they do a wobble blade.

Supposedly changing to the dado cartridge is just a matter of changing
the cartridge like you would do if the saw triggered, and since the
major difference is that the dado cartridge is for a smaller diameter
blade it should work fine with a wobble dado as long as it's 8" diameter.

On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 20:48:47 -0800, "LDosser" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> "Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>
>>> "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>> I know his intentions are good. But the kids who walk out of his shop
>>>> class are not going to be scared enough. It used to piss me off when
>>>> my high school shop teacher yelled about safety. I understand now.
>>>>
>>>> If they start filling the schools with that technology, guess
>>>> what...............
>>>>
>>>> RonB
>>>
>>> So you think it is better to have a finger or two cut off to keep the
>>> kids attention up?
>>
>>
>> *I* think it's better if the shop teacher does a better job of instruction
>> and supervision.
>> He said he would pay twice as much.................
>> If it's the school's money?
>>
>> Max
>
>
>It never was "the school's money".

Ain't his either.

On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:51:43 -0800 (PST), RonB <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Mar 13, 7:53 pm, "LDosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2010/03/sawstop_saw_brak...
>>
>> Some of the comments track remarkably with what has been said here.
>
>This is absolutely frightening. That a small number of lawyers and
>liberal courts can make decisions like this.
>
>Also frightening is the comment made by the high school teacher who
>has them in his shop.
>
>"Two of them have been in John Stearns' woodshop class at Amity High
>School. Stearns applied for grants to pay for two SawStop saws in
>2008, which cost $7,400, about three times the price of other brands.
>"I would pay twice as much for those saws to keep my kids from losing
>their fingers," Stearns said. "Those two kids walked away without a
>scratch. That's amazing. I don't know if I would go back to any other
>saw."
>
>I know his intentions are good. But the kids who walk out of his shop
>class are not going to be scared enough. It used to piss me off when
>my high school shop teacher yelled about safety. I understand now.
>
>If they start filling the schools with that technology, guess
>what...............
>
>RonB

Courts awarded the plaintiff 1.5 million dollars in the case against
Ryobi. No wonder this country is going in debt. Stupid is profitble.

Mike M

"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Does anyone remember the Mercedes Benz commercials about 10 to 15 years
> ago where an MB engineer mentions the fact that they were the ones who
> developed air-bag technology for their cars. He is asked why they did not
> patent the invention and instead shared the technology with other car
> manufacturers. He replies that "some inventions are too important not to
> share". It seems to me that the Saw Stop people could do the same by
> allowing their technology to be used by others at a small fixed price per
> unit and still make a nice return on their design.
>
Nice idea but remember, these are lawyers you're talking about.

Robatoy wrote:
> On Mar 14, 6:26 pm, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>> Nothing more than a self serving, liberal, pouring of perfumed
>>> altruistic spin on a pile of bullshit in an attempt to mask the
>>> stink of GREED.
>>
>> "Greed" is good. As one great worthy of antiquity said: "If not for
>> greed, no man would marry, build a home, or father a child."
>>
>> If anything, it is the RESULT of some greed that is bad, not the
>> inclination itself.
>
> IOW, Money is not the root of all evil... the love for it is.

Nope. The evil is solely in the methods and effects of following your heart.
Many a woman marries for the love of money, to the gratification of all
involved.

On 3/14/2010 5:26 PM, HeyBub wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>> Nothing more than a self serving, liberal, pouring of perfumed
>> altruistic spin on a pile of bullshit in an attempt to mask the stink
>> of GREED.
>
> "Greed" is good. As one great worthy of antiquity said: "If not for greed,
> no man would marry, build a home, or father a child."
>
> If anything, it is the RESULT of some greed that is bad, not the inclination
> itself.

Not necessarily, depends on the definition and context, as in this case:

"excessive or rapacious desire, esp. for wealth or possessions"

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 20:54:13 -0700, "LDosser" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:ffa4bac6-23dc-4e6d-845e-b2c10ce2511a@g26g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
>> On Mar 14, 11:39 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I highly suspect that the blade spinning at 100 mph is still going to
>> be intimidating.
>>
>>
>> I would like to think so. But remember, we have a lot of high school
>> shop class aged folks who are not intimidated by driving a 3,500 car
>> at 65 mph while texting.
>>
>>
>> But the saw stop technology does not stop kick back which is still a real
>> thread if the riving knife is not used, like during a dado operation.
>>
>
>Does the SawStop work at all with a dado blade or dado set?

From <http://www.sawstop.com/howitworks/sawstop_whitepaper.pdf>:

"The brake mechanism is shown in the drawing to the right. The arrow
shows how the aluminum brake pawl pivots into the teeth of the blade.
The brake pawl is part of a replaceable cartridge that includes the
spring, fuse wire and electronics necessary to burn the fuse wire.
An optional dado cartridge provides the same protection for dado
cuts.

I wonder how easy it is to change to the dado blade set and cartridge?

"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> Does anyone remember the Mercedes Benz commercials about 10 to 15 years
> ago where an MB engineer mentions the fact that they were the ones who
> developed air-bag technology for their cars. He is asked why they did not
> patent the invention and instead shared the technology with other car
> manufacturers. He replies that "some inventions are too important not to
> share". It seems to me that the Saw Stop people could do the same by
> allowing their technology to be used by others at a small fixed price per
> unit and still make a nice return on their design.
>
> Just wondering...
>
> Steve

Actually before even attempting to build the SawStop the inventors did
indeed offer the license to the other manufacturers. They of course having
poor insight turnd down the offer.

On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 11:05:21 -0500, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Steve wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone remember the Mercedes Benz commercials about 10 to 15
>> years ago where an MB engineer mentions the fact that they were the
>> ones who developed air-bag technology for their cars. He is asked why
>> they did not patent the invention and instead shared the technology
>> with other car manufacturers. He replies that "some inventions are
>> too important not to share". It seems to me that the Saw Stop people
>> could do the same by allowing their technology to be used by others
>> at a small fixed price per unit and still make a nice return on their
>> design.
>
>Even before that. Ben Franklin did not patent the lightning rod, the
>Franklin stove, bifocals, the vehicle odometer, and, to bring it up to date,
>Daylight Savings Time, for exactly the same reason.

Well, there were no patents before 1790. ;-)

"hex" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:67e85e6d-2d68-466e-a97c-29603a07a3ab@a18g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 14, 11:41 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Actually before even attempting to build the SawStop the inventors did
> indeed offer the license to the other manufacturers. They of course having
> poor insight turnd down the offer.

IIRC, lawyers were at the heart of the decision to turn down the
technology. Paraphrasing: "If you put this technology in some of your
saws, then you are admitting that the rest are inherently
dangerous." What frosted me was that the fine folks at SawStop
tried to use the Consumer Product Safety folks to jam this down our
throats.

Well actually had the CPS gone with the suggestion of the SawStop technology
you would not have had anything jamed down your throat. You would still be
able to use your current saw or or any saw manufactured before the
requirement.
Or you simply do not buy a saw. It is your choice. Now if they made you
buy a more expensive saw with the technology wheter you wanted to buy a saw
or not, that would be another matter.


Neither side was right; consumers get hosed; typical state of
affairs.

Agreed but after the smoke cleared all was well except for those
manufacturers that did not or buy the technology or develope their own way
to prevents cuts. And no, Saw Stop does not have a patent on every way to
prevent a cut, perhaps just in stopping the blade or dropping the blade.
Nothing to stop a manufacturer to come up with a new way to cut a board that
would be less dangerious, like say how the Fein Multimaster cuts wood.



As far as the "don't make shop too safe" part of this whole thread
tree. How about this: make the kids who trigger the safety buy new
cartridges and new blades. That is, make the mistake a pain in the
wallet -- just like real life.

Actually that is a good idea with the prerequisite that the parents sign a
consent form for the child to be in the class with the understanding of the
dangers and expense of the engagement of a safety measure being used. The
parents could in their more effective way explain to the child what it will
cost him.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 11:44:57 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>>If the unions would bow out and let the manufacturers pay what the skill
>>of
>>putting together a TS is "actually" worth the company could pay the
>>license
>>fee and make a profit, probably a larger profit. If your productions
>>costs
>>are in excess to start with it is also very hard to be competitive.
>
> OTOH, the unions could force a higher wage and manufacturing might move to
> China. Oh, wait.

How about that.

"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ffa4bac6-23dc-4e6d-845e-b2c10ce2511a@g26g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 14, 11:39 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
I highly suspect that the blade spinning at 100 mph is still going to
be intimidating.


I would like to think so. But remember, we have a lot of high school
shop class aged folks who are not intimidated by driving a 3,500 car
at 65 mph while texting.


But the saw stop technology does not stop kick back which is still a real
thread if the riving knife is not used, like during a dado operation.

"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:cf8759ea-40db-46da-a6f0-ee7de522bd0e@t20g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 13, 7:53 pm, "LDosser" <[email protected]> wrote:

snip


"Two of them have been in John Stearns' woodshop class at Amity High
School. Stearns applied for grants to pay for two SawStop saws in
2008, which cost $7,400, about three times the price of other brands.
"I would pay twice as much for those saws to keep my kids from losing
their fingers," Stearns said. "Those two kids walked away without a
scratch. That's amazing. I don't know if I would go back to any other
saw."

I know his intentions are good. But the kids who walk out of his shop
class are not going to be scared enough. It used to piss me off when
my high school shop teacher yelled about safety. I understand now.

I think you are perhaps thinking that knowing that the blade will not cut
your digits off will also not be scary. I highly suspect that the blade
spinning at 100 mph is still going to be intemidating.

"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote
> Does anyone remember the Mercedes Benz commercials about 10 to 15 years
> ago where an MB engineer mentions the fact that they were the ones who
> developed air-bag technology for their cars. He is asked why they did not
> patent the invention and instead shared the technology with other car
> manufacturers. He replies that "some inventions are too important not to
> share". It seems to me that the Saw Stop people could do the same by
> allowing their technology to be used by others at a small fixed price per
> unit and still make a nice return on their design.
>
> Just wondering...
>
> Steve

I see the problem.

"SawStop asks for licensing fees of 3 percent of the saw's wholesale price
to start. As the device becomes more widespread, the fees could increase to
8 percent. The price of table saws range from $200 to several thousand
dollars."

If he was closer to the 3% than the 8% it may fly, but adding a couple
hundred bucks for the actual hardware and then 8% on top, the saw becomes
uncompetitive.

"Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> "Steve" <[email protected]> wrote
>> Does anyone remember the Mercedes Benz commercials about 10 to 15 years
>> ago where an MB engineer mentions the fact that they were the ones who
>> developed air-bag technology for their cars. He is asked why they did not
>> patent the invention and instead shared the technology with other car
>> manufacturers. He replies that "some inventions are too important not to
>> share". It seems to me that the Saw Stop people could do the same by
>> allowing their technology to be used by others at a small fixed price per
>> unit and still make a nice return on their design.
>>
>> Just wondering...
>>
>> Steve
>
> I see the problem.
>
> "SawStop asks for licensing fees of 3 percent of the saw's wholesale price
> to start. As the device becomes more widespread, the fees could increase
> to 8 percent. The price of table saws range from $200 to several thousand
> dollars."
>
> If he was closer to the 3% than the 8% it may fly, but adding a couple
> hundred bucks for the actual hardware and then 8% on top, the saw becomes
> uncompetitive.

On the other hand, if you customer base is not buying your product because
it lacks this popular safety feature they also become uncompetitive.
If the unions would bow out and let the manufacturers pay what the skill of
putting together a TS is "actually" worth the company could pay the license
fee and make a profit, probably a larger profit. If your productions costs
are in excess to start with it is also very hard to be competitive.