I must have read a jillion articles on Mortise and Tenon Joints in the last
few weeks and I'm having pretty good success making floating tenon joints
with a router, table saw and hand planes for touch up. Now I need to
emulate some wedged tenon joints.
In all the articles I've read, they show clear pictures of suggested
dimensions, ratios, angles etc. Lots of attention is paid to techniques for
cutting mortises and tenons. But everyone seems to gloss over techniques
for cutting these little wedges.
Now to describe my challenge.
I'm building a plywood rack which will have a base composed of 23 1" oak
dowels with PVC sleeves around them to act as little rollers. These dowels
will be mounted between two 2x6 rails. I've decided the best way to mount
them is to emulate a wedged tenon - cut a slot in each end of each dowel and
drive a wedge into it. Any commentary or suggestions on how to make the
wedges are welcome. I have a tablesaw, drill press, several hand planes, a
Japanese saw, and some chisels in my arsenal.
I know some of you will say "glue it like it is, that ought to hold just
fine". The problem is the logistics of such a glue-up. Each dowel will have
15 little sleeves on it. In order to just glue the ends in place, I'd have
to do it all at once - fitting 374 parts, 54 joints and trying to square an
8 foot by 2 foot assembly before the glue sets. No Way! I put the main
frame together, squared and glued it without a hassle. Now I've got to
install the dowels/sleeves doing it patiently one at a time.
I am chronicling my progress on a web page. I've got it through dry fit-up
and begun some gluing. Perhaps this will help you see what I'm trying to
do.
http://www.anneldavis.com/bobandanne/sheetgood_cart.htm
Bob Davis
Houston, Texas
On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 00:44:57 GMT, "Bob"
<[email protected]> calmly ranted:
>
>"Larry Jaques" <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>> I'll tell you right now what I found out in building a sheet goods
>> rack. They're MEGA top-heavy and will want to split the uprights apart
>> with any movement.
>
>I greatly respect your advice, Larry. I had that input from another user
>earlier. I do not view this design as final product. I originally intended
>to have a fixed rack, then realized I could put wheels on it to allow me to
>move it away from the wall a bit if needed for loading and unloading.
>
>I have considered adding fold-out "struts" with additional wheels to provide
>stability and may do that after I get it finished. I could also just take
>the wheels off and not use them.
The struts would be better. And if you're keeping it mobile and
not affixing it to something solid, fixed struts would be better.
Half a dozen sheets/part sheets of ply and MDF can cause a whole
lot of damage if they knock you into something solid or sharp and
spinny, knowwhatImean,Vern?
>I have some questions about your rack. I don't see any corner or side
>casters on it. Is that true? Its seems like it would have a very high
>propensity to turn over, if that's the case. What is built into the design
>to resist turning over?
I have the single 4" caster on one end and the other is attached to
the pipe which goes through the ceiling. The pipe supports it. I have
probably 400 lbs of lumber on it right now so the side loading is at
least 200 lbs. when it moves around. That relates to probably a ton on
the bolts (which is why the short pipe didn't work with half that
weight on it.)
-------------------------------------------------------------
* * Humorous T-shirts Online
* Norm's Got Strings * Wondrous Website Design
* * http://www.diversify.com
-------------------------------------------------------------
What worked well for me recently was to start by getting the stock down
to thickness and width, but leaving it long (1/8" x 1/2" x 24" in my
case). I then took the wedges-to-be over to the disc sander, sanded the
tip of my 'stick' into a wedge shape, and then cut the wedge off the
stick with a hand saw. Repeat as often as necessary.
-John
On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 04:21:48 GMT, "Bob"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I must have read a jillion articles on Mortise and Tenon Joints in the last
>few weeks and I'm having pretty good success making floating tenon joints
>with a router, table saw and hand planes for touch up. Now I need to
>emulate some wedged tenon joints.
>
>In all the articles I've read, they show clear pictures of suggested
>dimensions, ratios, angles etc. Lots of attention is paid to techniques for
>cutting mortises and tenons. But everyone seems to gloss over techniques
>for cutting these little wedges.
>
>Now to describe my challenge.
>
>I'm building a plywood rack which will have a base composed of 23 1" oak
>dowels with PVC sleeves around them to act as little rollers. These dowels
>will be mounted between two 2x6 rails. I've decided the best way to mount
>them is to emulate a wedged tenon - cut a slot in each end of each dowel and
>drive a wedge into it. Any commentary or suggestions on how to make the
>wedges are welcome. I have a tablesaw, drill press, several hand planes, a
>Japanese saw, and some chisels in my arsenal.
>
>I know some of you will say "glue it like it is, that ought to hold just
>fine". The problem is the logistics of such a glue-up. Each dowel will have
>15 little sleeves on it. In order to just glue the ends in place, I'd have
>to do it all at once - fitting 374 parts, 54 joints and trying to square an
>8 foot by 2 foot assembly before the glue sets. No Way! I put the main
>frame together, squared and glued it without a hassle. Now I've got to
>install the dowels/sleeves doing it patiently one at a time.
>
>I am chronicling my progress on a web page. I've got it through dry fit-up
>and begun some gluing. Perhaps this will help you see what I'm trying to
>do.
>
>http://www.anneldavis.com/bobandanne/sheetgood_cart.htm
>
>Bob Davis
>Houston, Texas
>
I'd say you have the perect excuse to get a band saw....
"Bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
(snip)
>
> I know some of you will say "glue it like it is, that ought to hold just
> fine". The problem is the logistics of such a glue-up. Each dowel will
> have
> 15 little sleeves on it. In order to just glue the ends in place, I'd
> have
> to do it all at once - fitting 374 parts, 54 joints and trying to square
> an
> 8 foot by 2 foot assembly before the glue sets. No Way! I put the main
> frame together, squared and glued it without a hassle. Now I've got to
> install the dowels/sleeves doing it patiently one at a time.
>
--------------
Why do you have to do it all in one go? Why not just glue the dowels in one
rail, ignore the sleeves for now, and dry fit the other rail. Let dry,
remove dry fit rail , slip on the sleeves and then glue the remaining rail
in position.
Also a thought regarding using wedges, if you don't flair the joint you
won't get any mechanical benefit - all you'll get is a tight friction fit,
which will likely fall apart when all the heavy sheets goods move.
Cedar shakes.
Other than that, as advertised, long slow slopes to prevent rejection.
"Bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:BDB59833.31D27%[email protected]...
> > It's easy. Tilt the miter gauge on your table saw. Dimension your stock
> for
> > width and length. For example, a 1 inch thick board, 3/4 inch wide and a
> > couple of feet long. Set the miter gauge to an angle such as 3 or 4
> degrees
> > (87 degrees). I am not in the shop so you need to experiment. Make the
> first
> > cut and then flip the board and take another thin cut. You now have a
> wedge.
> > You will need to flip the board for each cut. You will also need to make
a
> > stop so you get the same thickness wedge each time. I knock these things
> out
> > so fast it is scary. I can cut 20 or so a minute.
> > max
>
> Bless you! I get it and I can do it. I'll give it a whirl tomorrow.
>
> Bob
>
>
Kerf.
"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:12:05 -0500, "George" <george@least> wrote:
>
> >Cedar shakes.
>
> How are you going to drive in a cross-grain wedge in such a soft
> timber as cedar ?
>
> --
> Smert' spamionam
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:40:26 GMT, "Bob"
<[email protected]> calmly ranted:
>The other factor is whether the sheetgood gets a chance at tilting any at
>all. One finger can keep a 3/4' MDF sheet from falling over, if its
>perfectly vertical. But try that when its at a 60 degree angle. I'm
>guessing at the dimensions of your cart, but it looks like its pretty easy
>for a sheet to slide and reach a 60 degree angle. This is not really "top
>heavy". Its what I would call "catastrophic shift in turning moment".
The inside width is 7-1/4", height 35-1/4", you figure the angle. I'd
guess it would never get even CLOSE to 60 degrees.
>Well enough techno-babble. There's still your "knowwhatimeanvern" factor.
Indubitably.
>I plan to finish the cart, then put a couple of sheets of plywood in it and
>shake and wiggle it around to see how prone it is to falling over. I'll
>probably end up putting the struts on it.
I'd bet money on it. ;)
-------------------------------------------------
- Boldly going - * Wondrous Website Design
- nowhere. - * http://www.diversify.com
-------------------------------------------------
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:34:50 GMT, "Bob"
<[email protected]> calmly ranted:
>
>"Larry Jaques" <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>> The inside width is 7-1/4", height 35-1/4", you figure the angle. I'd
>> guess it would never get even CLOSE to 60 degrees.
>
>You are right. Its 78 degrees.
Did you figure in the width of the stock, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? ;)
>I'm not giving odds, because I think you are right. About 2 weeks ago, I
>decided to go forward with my design because it was dictated by space
>limitations. It originally was going against the wall and would never
>budge. The casters came as an afterthought, followed by the idea that I'll
>have to do something about them if I think they are going to kill me.
Nah, it'd prolly just maim ya. If it were going up against the wall
to begin with, 2 hinges would be in order. That way you can load it
at any angle up to 90° from the wall if needed.
I had seen this basic pivoting design in a couple of magazines.
The pineywood dovies were my idea, flaunting sanity.
>I will however buy you a cup of coffer or a beer whenever we're in the same
>neighborhood. I appreciate being able to have a civil discussion without
>the potential mudslinging that could occur.
It'd be my pleasure. Coffee, please, if that happens. I'm an
ex-drunk (heavy on the EX.) I'm in OR and you're in TX, and many
a mile separates us.
-------------------------------------------------
- Boldly going - * Wondrous Website Design
- nowhere. - * http://www.diversify.com
-------------------------------------------------
It's easy. Tilt the miter gauge on your table saw. Dimension your stock for
width and length. For example, a 1 inch thick board, 3/4 inch wide and a
couple of feet long. Set the miter gauge to an angle such as 3 or 4 degrees
(87 degrees). I am not in the shop so you need to experiment. Make the first
cut and then flip the board and take another thin cut. You now have a wedge.
You will need to flip the board for each cut. You will also need to make a
stop so you get the same thickness wedge each time. I knock these things out
so fast it is scary. I can cut 20 or so a minute.
max
> On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 04:21:48 GMT, "Bob"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I must have read a jillion articles on Mortise and Tenon Joints in the last
>> few weeks and I'm having pretty good success making floating tenon joints
>> with a router, table saw and hand planes for touch up. Now I need to
>> emulate some wedged tenon joints.
>>
>> In all the articles I've read, they show clear pictures of suggested
>> dimensions, ratios, angles etc. Lots of attention is paid to techniques for
>> cutting mortises and tenons. But everyone seems to gloss over techniques
>> for cutting these little wedges.
>>
>> Now to describe my challenge.
>>
>> I'm building a plywood rack which will have a base composed of 23 1" oak
>> dowels with PVC sleeves around them to act as little rollers. These dowels
>> will be mounted between two 2x6 rails. I've decided the best way to mount
>> them is to emulate a wedged tenon - cut a slot in each end of each dowel and
>> drive a wedge into it. Any commentary or suggestions on how to make the
>> wedges are welcome. I have a tablesaw, drill press, several hand planes, a
>> Japanese saw, and some chisels in my arsenal.
>>
>> I know some of you will say "glue it like it is, that ought to hold just
>> fine". The problem is the logistics of such a glue-up. Each dowel will have
>> 15 little sleeves on it. In order to just glue the ends in place, I'd have
>> to do it all at once - fitting 374 parts, 54 joints and trying to square an
>> 8 foot by 2 foot assembly before the glue sets. No Way! I put the main
>> frame together, squared and glued it without a hassle. Now I've got to
>> install the dowels/sleeves doing it patiently one at a time.
>>
>> I am chronicling my progress on a web page. I've got it through dry fit-up
>> and begun some gluing. Perhaps this will help you see what I'm trying to
>> do.
>>
>> http://www.anneldavis.com/bobandanne/sheetgood_cart.htm
>>
>> Bob Davis
>> Houston, Texas
>>
>
>
>
> I'd say you have the perect excuse to get a band saw....
max wrote:
> It's easy. Tilt the miter gauge on your table saw. Dimension your stock for
> width and length. For example, a 1 inch thick board, 3/4 inch wide and a
> couple of feet long. Set the miter gauge to an angle such as 3 or 4 degrees
> (87 degrees). I am not in the shop so you need to experiment. Make the first
> cut and then flip the board and take another thin cut. You now have a wedge.
> You will need to flip the board for each cut. You will also need to make a
> stop so you get the same thickness wedge each time. I knock these things out
> so fast it is scary. I can cut 20 or so a minute.
> max
>
>
[snip]
These probably should be cut with the grain rather than across it.
Crosscut something like a tubasix to the proper length and then follow
the instructions above, you should have it. If these are to come out of
hardwood, you will have to make a jig to hold the piece.
mahalo,
jo4hn
"gandalf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Why do you have to do it all in one go? Why not just glue the dowels in
one
> rail, ignore the sleeves for now, and dry fit the other rail. Let dry,
> remove dry fit rail , slip on the sleeves and then glue the remaining rail
> in position.
Well, gandalf, my inexperience shows. Your answer is what I should have
done. I was focused on getting the whole contraption square and viewing the
base as the most important part to square up to be sure the rollers aligned
with each other. So I got that job done (four 2x4 cross braces with M&T
joints) and then realized I was challenged with how to handle the dowels. I
thought I had all this figured out, then realized putting the sleeves on
would eliminate all the flexibility of setting the dowels.
> Also a thought regarding using wedges, if you don't flair the joint you
> won't get any mechanical benefit - all you'll get is a tight friction fit,
> which will likely fall apart when all the heavy sheets goods move.
I was thinking of drilling pilot holes above and below the dowel holes and
dumping glue in those holes, spinning the dowels to spread the glue, then
inserting the wedges.
I'm real close to a big screw up and any further advice is appreciated.
Bob
"Larry Jaques" <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'll tell you right now what I found out in building a sheet goods
> rack. They're MEGA top-heavy and will want to split the uprights apart
> with any movement.
I greatly respect your advice, Larry. I had that input from another user
earlier. I do not view this design as final product. I originally intended
to have a fixed rack, then realized I could put wheels on it to allow me to
move it away from the wall a bit if needed for loading and unloading.
I have considered adding fold-out "struts" with additional wheels to provide
stability and may do that after I get it finished. I could also just take
the wheels off and not use them.
I have some questions about your rack. I don't see any corner or side
casters on it. Is that true? Its seems like it would have a very high
propensity to turn over, if that's the case. What is built into the design
to resist turning over?
Bob
"Larry Jaques" <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have the single 4" caster on one end and the other is attached to
> the pipe which goes through the ceiling. The pipe supports it. I have
> probably 400 lbs of lumber on it right now so the side loading is at
> least 200 lbs. when it moves around. That relates to probably a ton on
> the bolts (which is why the short pipe didn't work with half that
> weight on it.)
Its been years since I took an engineering mechanics class, but I remember a
few basics. Assuming you have a two foot wide cart, a 200 lb force on the
side of the cart would equate to 4800 lb force at 1/2 inch from the center
line of the cart. In terms of support you would substantially increase the
strength of the system and resistance to turning over by putting casters on
the sides or corners instead of the center. That's why I mounted wheels on
the side of my cart-in-construction.
The other factor is whether the sheetgood gets a chance at tilting any at
all. One finger can keep a 3/4' MDF sheet from falling over, if its
perfectly vertical. But try that when its at a 60 degree angle. I'm
guessing at the dimensions of your cart, but it looks like its pretty easy
for a sheet to slide and reach a 60 degree angle. This is not really "top
heavy". Its what I would call "catastrophic shift in turning moment".
Well enough techno-babble. There's still your "knowwhatimeanvern" factor.
I plan to finish the cart, then put a couple of sheets of plywood in it and
shake and wiggle it around to see how prone it is to falling over. I'll
probably end up putting the struts on it.
Bob
On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 04:21:48 GMT, "Bob"
<[email protected]> calmly ranted:
>I must have read a jillion articles on Mortise and Tenon Joints in the last
>few weeks and I'm having pretty good success making floating tenon joints
>with a router, table saw and hand planes for touch up. Now I need to
>emulate some wedged tenon joints.
>
>In all the articles I've read, they show clear pictures of suggested
>dimensions, ratios, angles etc. Lots of attention is paid to techniques for
>cutting mortises and tenons. But everyone seems to gloss over techniques
>for cutting these little wedges.
>
>Now to describe my challenge.
>
>I'm building a plywood rack which will have a base composed of 23 1" oak
>dowels with PVC sleeves around them to act as little rollers. These dowels
I'll tell you right now what I found out in building a sheet goods
rack. They're MEGA top-heavy and will want to split the uprights apart
with any movement. My first assembly attempt pulled the 3" lags out of
the cement with the weight supported by a 4' pole. I then resunk them
and mounted a 9' 3/4" pipe through the ceiling. That did it. With
yours on wheels, you'll have to keep it to 2' tall sheets, MAX. Goto
www.diversify.com/wood to see the original product, before the tall
pole. I got it half loaded and it fell right over. <blush> That was a
humbling learning experience. ;)
>will be mounted between two 2x6 rails. I've decided the best way to mount
>them is to emulate a wedged tenon - cut a slot in each end of each dowel and
>drive a wedge into it. Any commentary or suggestions on how to make the
>wedges are welcome. I have a tablesaw, drill press, several hand planes, a
>Japanese saw, and some chisels in my arsenal.
Use the Japanese saw to slice a 3/4" length of wood, rip it to
just under 1" width, then use the saw to cut the wedges with the
grain vertical. Five degrees is a good angle.
>I know some of you will say "glue it like it is, that ought to hold just
>fine". The problem is the logistics of such a glue-up. Each dowel will have
>15 little sleeves on it. In order to just glue the ends in place, I'd have
>to do it all at once - fitting 374 parts, 54 joints and trying to square an
>8 foot by 2 foot assembly before the glue sets. No Way! I put the main
>frame together, squared and glued it without a hassle. Now I've got to
>install the dowels/sleeves doing it patiently one at a time.
Swab an inch of the ends and glue them in while assembling them
individually. The wedges are glued in, too. Tap them in with a
mallet. A bit of wax on the end keeps glue from sticking.
Again, I caution you to mount it to something on one end and let
it pivot from there. With those side-loading problems, they're just
too top-heavy for a mobile unit--unless you make it an A-frame and
balance the side loads.
--
Remember: Every silver lining has a cloud.
----
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development
"max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:BDB59833.31D27%[email protected]...
> It's easy. Tilt the miter gauge on your table saw. Dimension your stock
for
> width and length. For example, a 1 inch thick board, 3/4 inch wide and a
> couple of feet long. Set the miter gauge to an angle such as 3 or 4
degrees
> (87 degrees). I am not in the shop so you need to experiment. Make the
first
> cut and then flip the board and take another thin cut. You now have a
wedge.
> You will need to flip the board for each cut. You will also need to make a
> stop so you get the same thickness wedge each time. I knock these things
out
> so fast it is scary. I can cut 20 or so a minute.
> max
Bless you! I get it and I can do it. I'll give it a whirl tomorrow.
Bob
I made a jig to make wedges. Basically it is a hole that accepts the wedge
horizontally. I cut wedge blank on the bandsaw about a 16th of a inch away
from the line and place it in the hole. Then I plane the rough side smooth
and touch it up on the disc sander if I need to.
"Bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I must have read a jillion articles on Mortise and Tenon Joints in the last
> few weeks and I'm having pretty good success making floating tenon joints
> with a router, table saw and hand planes for touch up. Now I need to
> emulate some wedged tenon joints.
>
> In all the articles I've read, they show clear pictures of suggested
> dimensions, ratios, angles etc. Lots of attention is paid to techniques
> for
> cutting mortises and tenons. But everyone seems to gloss over techniques
> for cutting these little wedges.
>
> Now to describe my challenge.
>
> I'm building a plywood rack which will have a base composed of 23 1" oak
> dowels with PVC sleeves around them to act as little rollers. These
> dowels
> will be mounted between two 2x6 rails. I've decided the best way to mount
> them is to emulate a wedged tenon - cut a slot in each end of each dowel
> and
> drive a wedge into it. Any commentary or suggestions on how to make the
> wedges are welcome. I have a tablesaw, drill press, several hand planes,
> a
> Japanese saw, and some chisels in my arsenal.
>
> I know some of you will say "glue it like it is, that ought to hold just
> fine". The problem is the logistics of such a glue-up. Each dowel will
> have
> 15 little sleeves on it. In order to just glue the ends in place, I'd
> have
> to do it all at once - fitting 374 parts, 54 joints and trying to square
> an
> 8 foot by 2 foot assembly before the glue sets. No Way! I put the main
> frame together, squared and glued it without a hassle. Now I've got to
> install the dowels/sleeves doing it patiently one at a time.
>
> I am chronicling my progress on a web page. I've got it through dry fit-up
> and begun some gluing. Perhaps this will help you see what I'm trying to
> do.
>
> http://www.anneldavis.com/bobandanne/sheetgood_cart.htm
>
> Bob Davis
> Houston, Texas
>
>
"Larry Jaques" <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The inside width is 7-1/4", height 35-1/4", you figure the angle. I'd
> guess it would never get even CLOSE to 60 degrees.
You are right. Its 78 degrees.
> >probably end up putting the struts on it.
>
> I'd bet money on it. ;)
I'm not giving odds, because I think you are right. About 2 weeks ago, I
decided to go forward with my design because it was dictated by space
limitations. It originally was going against the wall and would never
budge. The casters came as an afterthought, followed by the idea that I'll
have to do something about them if I think they are going to kill me.
I will however buy you a cup of coffer or a beer whenever we're in the same
neighborhood. I appreciate being able to have a civil discussion without
the potential mudslinging that could occur.
Best regards,
Bob Davis
Houston, Texas
"Bob" <[email protected]> writes:
[...]
> drive a wedge into it. Any commentary or suggestions on how to make the
> wedges are welcome. I have a tablesaw, drill press, several hand planes, a
> Japanese saw, and some chisels in my arsenal.
I make my wedges usually from beech firewood stock using a hatchet, it
gives due to the optimal grain orientation achieved by that method the
most stable wedges. It takes a bit of experimenting until the wedges
look like you want them, but it's quick when learned.
--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
mailto:[email protected] Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23