Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote:
>Douglas Johnson wrote:
>> Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> None of these sexually molested small boys as best we know.
>>> MJ almost certainly did.
>>
>> Do you have first hand knowledge or are you believing press accounts?
>>
>> -- Doug
>
>I have the knowledge of multiple sources of reporting,
In other words, you are believing press accounts.
> a criminal trial,
Acquitted. Which doesn't prove innocence, but is certainly not evidence of
guilt.
> and civil lawsuits (all matters of public record) that resulted
>in MJ paying 10s of *millions* of dollars to make the problem go away.
Only one related to child molestation, which never went to trial. He paid $22
million as best I can tell. See
http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2009-06-26-jackson-faces_N.htm
if you would like to believe press accounts.
>Innocent people - especially if charged with sexual predation - would
>not behave that way.
Actually they do. $22 million is cheap to make the problem go away. It would
have cost him more to defend it. With all the attendant publicity.
> He was an evil and wretched man and the
>international adoration of him in death is sickening.
According to the same article, he donated millions to charity. But we do get to
some agreement. He had to be wretched. Evil? Possibly, but nothing has ever
been substantiated that I have seen.
The international reaction is proof that people need to find some real heroes.
They're around, but are usually too busy doing good things to get much press.
-- Doug
Robatoy wrote:
> On Jun 26, 11:39 am, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Douglas Johnson wrote:
>>> Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>>> Living the life he lived, can understand why his lifestyle can only be
>>>>> described weird.
>>>> Sexual molesting children is not "weird", it is evil...
>>> He was acquitted, no?
>>> -- Doug
>> So was OJ ...
>>
> Indeed.
> In some European countries, IMMSMC, Switzerland being one, they not
> only have a Found Not Guilty finding but also one that say Found
> Innocent. MJ and OJ were not likely to be blessed with a Found
> Innocent finding. In OJ's case the civil suit kind of shows that.
Maybe it's a "glove" thing, eh? :(
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Amadeus suffered from severe manic depression. In his manic
periods he gave us an amazing quantity of amazing music. But
he did a lot of crazy things that make much of what's done today
look pretty tame.
Gaugan - dead beat dad who skipped the country and hung out with
"half naked" (not sure which half was naked) polynesian girls.
Lautrec - addicted to absinthe and hung out in bars and bordellos.
Died of syphillis.
Van Gough - started out borderline insane then probably ingested
some of the recently introduced Cadmium Yellow he used so much.
Think cutting off your ear and sending it to a woman you lusted
after would take up a day of two on Fox News?
Oscar Wilde - hardly a role model for "proper people".
Beardsley - an opium user and a perv.
Poppa Hemingway - drunk, beligerant drunk who blew his brains out
with a shot gun. Nice thing to leave your family to deal with huh?
Picasso? Not likely to be elected Father of The Year, or Husband
of the Year either.
Salvador Dali - clearly what would be called A Nut Case.
Sinatra? Not exactly a Pillar of the Community - barring the
community of Las Vegas, and maybe Jersey.
The list is endless.
But judge the Art for what it is - and judge the Artist and his/her
personal life separately.
Micheal Jackson revived the music industry and put the
New Medium - music videos into the culture - like it or not.
He had a significant impact on popular music and culture
- and saved the Gloves Industry - "single handedly" ; )
In article
<[email protected]>,
Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> What is the difference between a shopping bag and Michael jackson?
> One is plastic and dangerous to children, the other is used to carry
> groceries.
I heard he was going to be re-cycled into Lego bricks so that chidren
could play with him instead of the other way round!
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Robatoy" wrote:
>
>> Michael Jackson dead.
>> Helluva talent
>
> Not my kind of entertainment.
>
>> Helluva freak.
>
> Living the life he lived, can understand why his lifestyle can only be
> described weird.
>
> Lew
>
>
Sexual molesting children is not "weird", it is evil...
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk [email protected]
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
Douglas Johnson wrote:
> Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Douglas Johnson wrote:
>>> Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> None of these sexually molested small boys as best we know.
>>>> MJ almost certainly did.
>>> Do you have first hand knowledge or are you believing press accounts?
>>>
>>> -- Doug
>> I have the knowledge of multiple sources of reporting,
>
> In other words, you are believing press accounts.
When multiple, independent sources describe more-or-less the
same events, there's a reasonable justification for "believing"
the gist of the story. There is essentially no question that
this guy was a child molester except for the music groupies
who place their (bad) taste in entertainment above moral judgment.
>
>> a criminal trial,
>
> Acquitted. Which doesn't prove innocence, but is certainly not evidence of
> guilt.
>
>> and civil lawsuits (all matters of public record) that resulted
>> in MJ paying 10s of *millions* of dollars to make the problem go away.
>
> Only one related to child molestation, which never went to trial. He paid $22
> million as best I can tell. See
> http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2009-06-26-jackson-faces_N.htm
> if you would like to believe press accounts.
>
>> Innocent people - especially if charged with sexual predation - would
>> not behave that way.
>
> Actually they do. $22 million is cheap to make the problem go away. It would
> have cost him more to defend it. With all the attendant publicity.
>
>> He was an evil and wretched man and the
>> international adoration of him in death is sickening.
>
> According to the same article, he donated millions to charity. But we do get to
> some agreement. He had to be wretched. Evil? Possibly, but nothing has ever
> been substantiated that I have seen.
This level of disbelief is not skepticism. It is denial.
>
> The international reaction is proof that people need to find some real heroes.
It is proof that they have very low standards for both entertainment
and heroes.
> They're around, but are usually too busy doing good things to get much press.
MJ was no hero except, perhaps, to people who do not understand the term.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk [email protected]
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
In article <[email protected]>, Douglas Johnson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Would I let my grandchildren in the same room with him? No way in hell.
I wouldn't have before last Thursday.... but I would now.
Seriously, though, doesn't that mean that you believe he really *was* a child
molester?
Douglas Johnson wrote:
> Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>>> Living the life he lived, can understand why his lifestyle can only be
>>> described weird.
>
>> Sexual molesting children is not "weird", it is evil...
>
> He was acquitted, no?
>
> -- Doug
So was OJ ...
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"J. Clarke" wrote:
> If you've never seen a Micheal Jackson video you should. Great fun.
> Gets
> old fairly quickly though. It's like he was _made_ for that
> medium.
I grew up with radio.
I listen to music, not watch it.
As far as dance is concerned, Gene Kelly, Fred Astaire, Donald
O'Conner, Gregory Hines, Ginger Rogers were all accomplished dancers,
but their movies bored me to death, just not my style of
entertainment.
Lew
In article <f7bab348-bed5-4a87-ab07-88a6633a02b6
@p23g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>, [email protected] says...
> On Jun 26, 11:39=A0am, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Douglas Johnson wrote:
> > > Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >> Lew Hodgett wrote:
> >
> > >>> Living the life he lived, can understand why his lifestyle can only=
be
> > >>> described weird.
> >
> > >> Sexual molesting children is not "weird", it is evil...
> >
> > > He was acquitted, no?
> >
> > > -- Doug
> >
> > So was OJ ...
> >
> Indeed.
> In some European countries, IMMSMC, Switzerland being one, they not
> only have a Found Not Guilty finding but also one that say Found
> Innocent. MJ and OJ were not likely to be blessed with a Found
> Innocent finding. In OJ's case the civil suit kind of shows that.
Which seems to work out to exactly the same thing.
Scotland has a "Not Guilty" and "Not Proven." There is a nuance in the=20
sensibility but legally they mean "Not Guilty."
after so much plastic surgery, maybe he can be recycled ...
"HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Robatoy wrote:
>> Michael Jackson dead.
>> Helluva talent
>> Helluva freak.
>
> He was proof that America is great!
>
> Where else could a poor black boy grow up to be a rich white man and marry
> Elvis Presley's daughter?
>
charlieb wrote:
> Micheal Jackson revived the music industry and put the
> New Medium - music videos into the culture - like it or not.
Not ... music videos were around long before said self-mutilator/pervert
came on the scene, and, I was firmly in the "music industry" at the time
and to say that he "revived the music industry" is to not have had an
understanding of it in the first place ... AAMOF, it is plain, outright,
utter nonsense.
Sorry, Charlie ... but my take is a "boots on the ground' one, not from
what is being spewed forth from the revisionists in the media.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
J. Clarke wrote:
> If you've never seen a Micheal Jackson video you should. Great fun. Gets
> old fairly quickly though. It's like he was _made_ for that medium.
I'm too young to really have an informed opinion, but others have been
saying that he practically *defined* that medium in the early 80s.
Chris
I wonder what his jeweled "Jock Strap" would go for on EBay?
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> charlieb wrote:
>
>
>> Micheal Jackson revived the music industry and put the
>> New Medium - music videos into the culture - like it or not.
>
> Not ... music videos were around long before said self-mutilator/pervert
> came on the scene, and, I was firmly in the "music industry" at the time
> and to say that he "revived the music industry" is to not have had an
> understanding of it in the first place ... AAMOF, it is plain, outright,
> utter nonsense.
>
> Sorry, Charlie ... but my take is a "boots on the ground' one, not from
> what is being spewed forth from the revisionists in the media.
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 10/22/08
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
> signature database 4193 (20090626) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 4193 (20090626) __________
The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
http://www.eset.com
"Douglas Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message > Tim Daneliuk
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >None of these sexually molested small boys as best we know.
> >MJ almost certainly did.
>
> Do you have first hand knowledge or are you believing press accounts?
If you're asking that about Tim, then you must be new here. (no offence
intended)
Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote:
>None of these sexually molested small boys as best we know.
>MJ almost certainly did.
Do you have first hand knowledge or are you believing press accounts?
-- Doug
On Jun 25, 8:38=A0pm, "Matt" <[email protected]> wrote:
> after so much plastic surgery, maybe he can be recycled ...
>
> "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > Robatoy wrote:
> >> Michael Jackson dead.
> >> Helluva talent
> >> Helluva freak.
>
> > He was proof that America is great!
>
> > Where else could a poor black boy grow up to be a rich white man and ma=
rry
> > Elvis Presley's daughter?
What is the difference between a shopping bag and Michael jackson?
One is plastic and dangerous to children, the other is used to carry
groceries.
Douglas Johnson wrote:
> Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> When multiple, independent sources describe more-or-less the
>> same events, there's a reasonable justification for "believing"
>> the gist of the story.
>
> The multiple sources are rarely independent. They are almost all using the same
> primary source. e.g. "Prosecutors today filed charges..."
>
>> This level of disbelief is not skepticism. It is denial.
>
> Nope. I just want some facts before publicly accusing someone of being an evil
> child molester. Real, substantiated facts seem to be pretty scarce. There is
> certainly an ample supply of accusations and rumors.
>
> Would I let my grandchildren in the same room with him? No way in hell.
The last two paragraphs taken together cause a level of cognitive
dissonance that is painful ...
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk [email protected]
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
On Jun 26, 11:39=A0am, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> Douglas Johnson wrote:
> > Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
> >>> Living the life he lived, can understand why his lifestyle can only b=
e
> >>> described weird.
>
> >> Sexual molesting children is not "weird", it is evil...
>
> > He was acquitted, no?
>
> > -- Doug
>
> So was OJ ...
>
Indeed.
In some European countries, IMMSMC, Switzerland being one, they not
only have a Found Not Guilty finding but also one that say Found
Innocent. MJ and OJ were not likely to be blessed with a Found
Innocent finding. In OJ's case the civil suit kind of shows that.
charlieb wrote:
> Amadeus suffered from severe manic depression. In his manic
> periods he gave us an amazing quantity of amazing music. But
> he did a lot of crazy things that make much of what's done today
> look pretty tame.
>
> Gaugan - dead beat dad who skipped the country and hung out with
> "half naked" (not sure which half was naked) polynesian girls.
>
> Lautrec - addicted to absinthe and hung out in bars and bordellos.
> Died of syphillis.
>
> Van Gough - started out borderline insane then probably ingested
> some of the recently introduced Cadmium Yellow he used so much.
> Think cutting off your ear and sending it to a woman you lusted
> after would take up a day of two on Fox News?
>
> Oscar Wilde - hardly a role model for "proper people".
>
> Beardsley - an opium user and a perv.
>
> Poppa Hemingway - drunk, beligerant drunk who blew his brains out
> with a shot gun. Nice thing to leave your family to deal with huh?
>
> Picasso? Not likely to be elected Father of The Year, or Husband
> of the Year either.
>
> Salvador Dali - clearly what would be called A Nut Case.
>
> Sinatra? Not exactly a Pillar of the Community - barring the
> community of Las Vegas, and maybe Jersey.
>
> The list is endless.
>
> But judge the Art for what it is - and judge the Artist and his/her
> personal life separately.
>
None of these sexually molested small boys as best we know.
MJ almost certainly did.
> Micheal Jackson revived the music industry and put the
> New Medium - music videos into the culture - like it or not.
The Beatles, Stones, and Zeppelin had done "music video"
long before this little pervert every showed up.
> He had a significant impact on popular music and culture
> - and saved the Gloves Industry - "single handedly" ; )
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk [email protected]
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Robatoy" wrote:
>
>> Michael Jackson dead.
>> Helluva talent
>
> Not my kind of entertainment.
I didn't think he was mine either, until I caught one of his videos while I
was waiting for a diagnostic to complete on a computer I was fixing at a
video store.
If you've never seen a Micheal Jackson video you should. Great fun. Gets
old fairly quickly though. It's like he was _made_ for that medium.
>> Helluva freak.
>
> Living the life he lived, can understand why his lifestyle can only be
> described weird.
Yep.
Lee Michaels wrote:
> "Tim Daneliuk" wrote
>> Oh ... and he wasn't much of
>> a musician in the grand scheme of things either. Bach will live
>> forever. MJ will be forgotten in a few generations...
>>
> One comment I heard was that his gretest musical accomplishment was buying
> the beatle's song library.
His greatest non-musical accomplishment was to make HUGE sums of money
and die $500,000,000 in debt. Bank of America alone loaned him
$200,000,000.
Seems strange (to me) that an individual could get himself 1/2 a Billion
dollars in debt. The town (not the school district) I live in could run
for years on that amount...
--
Jack
Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org/
http://jbstein.com
Chris Friesen wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> If you've never seen a Micheal Jackson video you should. Great fun.
>> Gets old fairly quickly though. It's like he was _made_ for that
>> medium.
>
> I'm too young to really have an informed opinion, but others have been
> saying that he practically *defined* that medium in the early 80s.
Yeah, that can be a problem--his videos were smooth and slick in their day,
but I can see where they might look a little dated and rough now.
I ignored him for most of his career, thought of him as just "the kid in the
Jackson 5". I kind of liked "Thriller" on the radio, in part because of the
Vincent Price voiceover, but not enough to buy it. But then I saw the
video. Like, wow.
charlieb wrote:
> Amadeus suffered from severe manic depression. In his manic
> periods he gave us an amazing quantity of amazing music. But
> he did a lot of crazy things that make much of what's done today
> look pretty tame.
>
> Gaugan - dead beat dad who skipped the country and hung out with
> "half naked" (not sure which half was naked) polynesian girls.
>
> Lautrec - addicted to absinthe and hung out in bars and bordellos.
> Died of syphillis.
>
> Van Gough - started out borderline insane then probably ingested
> some of the recently introduced Cadmium Yellow he used so much.
> Think cutting off your ear and sending it to a woman you lusted
> after would take up a day of two on Fox News?
>
> Oscar Wilde - hardly a role model for "proper people".
>
> Beardsley - an opium user and a perv.
>
> Poppa Hemingway - drunk, beligerant drunk who blew his brains out
> with a shot gun. Nice thing to leave your family to deal with huh?
>
> Picasso? Not likely to be elected Father of The Year, or Husband
> of the Year either.
>
> Salvador Dali - clearly what would be called A Nut Case.
>
> Sinatra? Not exactly a Pillar of the Community - barring the
> community of Las Vegas, and maybe Jersey.
>
> The list is endless.
>
> But judge the Art for what it is - and judge the Artist and his/her
> personal life separately.
>
> Micheal Jackson revived the music industry and put the
> New Medium - music videos into the culture - like it or not.
> He had a significant impact on popular music and culture
> - and saved the Gloves Industry - "single handedly" ; )
Nicely done, charlie.
Tanus
Lee Michaels wrote:
> "Tim Daneliuk" wrote
>> Oh ... and he wasn't much of
>> a musician in the grand scheme of things either. Bach will live
>> forever. MJ will be forgotten in a few generations...
>>
> One comment I heard was that his gretest musical accomplishment was buying
> the beatle's song library.
>
>
>
;)
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk [email protected]
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
Douglas Johnson wrote:
> Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> None of these sexually molested small boys as best we know.
>> MJ almost certainly did.
>
> Do you have first hand knowledge or are you believing press accounts?
>
> -- Doug
I have the knowledge of multiple sources of reporting, a criminal
trial, and civil lawsuits (all matters of public record) that resulted
in MJ paying 10s of *millions* of dollars to make the problem go away.
Innocent people - especially if charged with sexual predation - would
not behave that way. He was an evil and wretched man and the
international adoration of him in death is sickening.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk [email protected]
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote:
>Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> Living the life he lived, can understand why his lifestyle can only be
>> described weird.
>Sexual molesting children is not "weird", it is evil...
He was acquitted, no?
-- Doug
Douglas Johnson wrote:
> Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>>> Living the life he lived, can understand why his lifestyle can only be
>>> described weird.
>
>> Sexual molesting children is not "weird", it is evil...
>
> He was acquitted, no?
>
> -- Doug
That was a legal finding. Even a casual inspection of the evidence
clearly demonstrated he was a pederast. That, in and of itself,
is revolting. Almost as revolting the the popular culture lovefest
in every paper and on every TV show today that manages to ignore the
harm he inflicted on young boys. Oh ... and he wasn't much of
a musician in the grand scheme of things either. Bach will live
forever. MJ will be forgotten in a few generations...
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk [email protected]
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote:
>When multiple, independent sources describe more-or-less the
>same events, there's a reasonable justification for "believing"
>the gist of the story.
The multiple sources are rarely independent. They are almost all using the same
primary source. e.g. "Prosecutors today filed charges..."
>This level of disbelief is not skepticism. It is denial.
Nope. I just want some facts before publicly accusing someone of being an evil
child molester. Real, substantiated facts seem to be pretty scarce. There is
certainly an ample supply of accusations and rumors.
Would I let my grandchildren in the same room with him? No way in hell.
-- Doug