Say Good Bye to the Hitachi Name

[email protected] wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 21:09:27 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Markem wrote:
>>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 20:16:45 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 23:51:44 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 10:39:37 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
>>>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just imagine if GM or Ford or Fiat told every car dealer selling their brand that they will only sell the cars/trucks for the price on the sticker. No dickering, no bargaining with customers. If you do then your car dealer lot will be closed before the sun sets and every car will be taken back and you will be sued in court. I'm guessing this is illegal in the USA for cars. But somehow its allowed for tools.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If they were the only tool supplier, I believe things would be
>>>>>> different. Festool does not have a monopoly (except on Festool tools),
>>>>>> as there are plenty of suitably-equivalent tools.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not sure what you mean. Ford, GM, Fiat all make cars/trucks that compete with each other. Add in Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Hundai, Kia from Asia. And add in BMW, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Audi, Volvo from Europe. No car dealer has a monopoly. But you can and do negotiate an individual price from every car dealer for every brand. DeWalt, Makita, Milwaukee, Porter Cable all have different prices for every tool from all the different vendors selling these brands. Only Festool has one price no matter who sells it. It is the oddball out here.
>>>>
>>>> Remember Saturn? They tried the one price fits all. There's nothing
>>>> stopping Ford from doing it, except bankruptcy.
>>>>
>>>> The reason Festool controls price is that it entices their retailers
>>>> to sell by service, rather than price. It's why I buy from Highland
>>>> rather than Amazon (or even Woodcraft). Highland does a better job of
>>>> stocking and selling. OTOH, if I could save a Franklin, I'd likely
>>>> buy from Amazon, or even <gack> eBay.
>>>>
>>>>> After rereading your post I think I might grasp what you are saying. Maybe. But how can Festool control its retailers and no other company or product in the USA can exercise the same control? If Festool owned, controlled everyone who sells its products, then yes they can dictate prices. But all of the vendors for Festool are privately owned businesses. They are not Festool owned sellers, distributors. All of these companies sell Festool and a thousand other items. And I'm sure they compete on price with everyone else on all these other items. I guess SawStop is similar to Festool. I think, not positive, that SawStop also dictates a price for every saw they sell and that is the price. No competition for SawStop on price. Odd that Festool now owns SawStop.
>>>>
>>>> Others don't *choose* to control their retailers. Festool certainly
>>>> isn't unique, either.
>>>
>>> Having a set retail price also offers the retailer a set margin.
>>
>> That would make more sense to me if the product was sold online only.
>> Certainly the costs to be retailer in CA differ from those in OH, and
>> the former could probably deal with the higher margins better. Think of
>> the cost of the tool as a percentage of the price of a typical house in
>> an area.
>
> OTOH, where housing prices are high, wages tend to also be high. High
> wages allow high-priced toys so they may sell more.
>

That's exactly the point I was making. Maybe it would make sense to
retail some for less in OH where the cost of conducting business isn't
as high... That's sort of the equilibrium for an unregulated market, I
think.

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 10:01:44 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 3/14/18 9:24 AM, Leon wrote:
>> http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/power-tools/hitachi-power-tools-gets-a-new-name_o?utm_source=newsletter&utm_content=Product-Article&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=TOTT_031318A%20%281%29%20A&he=bec4d8d422980f163c46356739c05c6eecb92632
>>
>>
>
>Interesting! I've always been intrigued by the Metabo brand.
>Funny that Hitachi buys the company for name recognition, but folks in
>the US (for the most part) have never heard of Metabo but everyone knows
>Hitachi. Apparently, they want more of the Euro market.

...and less of the US market.

On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 1:43:38 PM UTC-4, Bill wrote:
> DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 11:30:57 PM UTC-4, Bill wrote:
> >> [email protected] wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 23:04:24 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote=
:
> >>>
> >>>> [email protected] wrote:
> >>>>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 21:09:27 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wro=
te:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Markem wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 20:16:45 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 23:51:44 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.=
com"
> >>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 10:39:37 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Just imagine if GM or Ford or Fiat told every car dealer sell=
ing their brand that they will only sell the cars/trucks for the price on t=
he sticker. No dickering, no bargaining with customers. If you do then yo=
ur car dealer lot will be closed before the sun sets and every car will be =
taken back and you will be sued in court. I'm guessing this is illegal in =
the USA for cars. But somehow its allowed for tools.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> If they were the only tool supplier, I believe things would be
> >>>>>>>>>> different. Festool does not have a monopoly (except on Festoo=
l tools),
> >>>>>>>>>> as there are plenty of suitably-equivalent tools.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Not sure what you mean. Ford, GM, Fiat all make cars/trucks th=
at compete with each other. Add in Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Hundai, =
Kia from Asia. And add in BMW, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Audi, Volvo from Euro=
pe. No car dealer has a monopoly. But you can and do negotiate an individ=
ual price from every car dealer for every brand. DeWalt, Makita, Milwaukee=
, Porter Cable all have different prices for every tool from all the differ=
ent vendors selling these brands. Only Festool has one price no matter who=
sells it. It is the oddball out here.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Remember Saturn? They tried the one price fits all. There's no=
thing
> >>>>>>>> stopping Ford from doing it, except bankruptcy.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The reason Festool controls price is that it entices their retai=
lers
> >>>>>>>> to sell by service, rather than price. It's why I buy from High=
land
> >>>>>>>> rather than Amazon (or even Woodcraft). Highland does a better =
job of
> >>>>>>>> stocking and selling. OTOH, if I could save a Franklin, I'd lik=
ely
> >>>>>>>> buy from Amazon, or even <gack> eBay.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> After rereading your post I think I might grasp what you are sa=
ying. Maybe. But how can Festool control its retailers and no other compa=
ny or product in the USA can exercise the same control? If Festool owned, =
controlled everyone who sells its products, then yes they can dictate price=
s. But all of the vendors for Festool are privately owned businesses. The=
y are not Festool owned sellers, distributors. All of these companies sell=
Festool and a thousand other items. And I'm sure they compete on price wi=
th everyone else on all these other items. I guess SawStop is similar to F=
estool. I think, not positive, that SawStop also dictates a price for ever=
y saw they sell and that is the price. No competition for SawStop on price=
. Odd that Festool now owns SawStop.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Others don't *choose* to control their retailers. Festool certa=
inly
> >>>>>>>> isn't unique, either.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Having a set retail price also offers the retailer a set margin.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> That would make more sense to me if the product was sold online on=
ly.
> >>>>>> Certainly the costs to be retailer in CA differ from those in OH, =
and
> >>>>>> the former could probably deal with the higher margins better. Thi=
nk of
> >>>>>> the cost of the tool as a percentage of the price of a typical hou=
se in
> >>>>>> an area.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> OTOH, where housing prices are high, wages tend to also be high. H=
igh
> >>>>> wages allow high-priced toys so they may sell more.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> That's exactly the point I was making. Maybe it would make sense to
> >>>> retail some for less in OH where the cost of conducting business isn=
't
> >>>> as high... That's sort of the equilibrium for an unregulated market=
, I
> >>>> think.
> >>>
> >>> My point was that there may be a comparable profit between the two.
> >>> The retailer in the not-so-expensive area can't sell as many units bu=
t
> >>> he doesn't have to. The opposite is also likely. However, there
> >>> isn't a lot of incentive to sell (buy, really) in the other's
> >>> territory.
> >>>
> >>
> >> As far as I'm concerned, they can sell them for whatever they want sin=
ce
> >> I'm not in their target audience. I watched some interesting videos=
on
> >> YouTube this week, for car salesman, on "Closing the sale and getting
> >> the sticker price". Festool's philosophy appears to be not so much
> >> different.
> >=20
> > Car case: Product has an MSRP on the sticker. The S stands for "suggest=
ed". Suggested implies
> > negotiable. A slimy sales dweep talks some poor slug into paying full =
price. The next customer
> > is more savvy than the last. (S)he buys the same car for thousands less=
.
> >=20
> > Festool case: That's the price. Non-negotiable. The salesman says "Woul=
d you like to buy it?"
> >=20
> > How are those things "not so much different"?
>=20
> The manufacturer is playing the role of the "slimy sales dweep"?

No, they are not. Festool's policy is clear and upfront. There is no MSRP=
=20
on their label, there is only an MRP. Take it or leave it. Nothing slimy
about that and everyone pays the same price - if they want to. Customer's
choice, clear and simple.

Slimy is the guy that shows the customer an "invoice" and says "Look, see? =
I'm only making $200 on this vehicle."

On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 21:09:27 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Markem wrote:
>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 20:16:45 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 23:51:44 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 10:39:37 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
>>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Just imagine if GM or Ford or Fiat told every car dealer selling their brand that they will only sell the cars/trucks for the price on the sticker. No dickering, no bargaining with customers. If you do then your car dealer lot will be closed before the sun sets and every car will be taken back and you will be sued in court. I'm guessing this is illegal in the USA for cars. But somehow its allowed for tools.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If they were the only tool supplier, I believe things would be
>>>>> different. Festool does not have a monopoly (except on Festool tools),
>>>>> as there are plenty of suitably-equivalent tools.
>>>>
>>>> Not sure what you mean. Ford, GM, Fiat all make cars/trucks that compete with each other. Add in Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Hundai, Kia from Asia. And add in BMW, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Audi, Volvo from Europe. No car dealer has a monopoly. But you can and do negotiate an individual price from every car dealer for every brand. DeWalt, Makita, Milwaukee, Porter Cable all have different prices for every tool from all the different vendors selling these brands. Only Festool has one price no matter who sells it. It is the oddball out here.
>>>
>>> Remember Saturn? They tried the one price fits all. There's nothing
>>> stopping Ford from doing it, except bankruptcy.
>>>
>>> The reason Festool controls price is that it entices their retailers
>>> to sell by service, rather than price. It's why I buy from Highland
>>> rather than Amazon (or even Woodcraft). Highland does a better job of
>>> stocking and selling. OTOH, if I could save a Franklin, I'd likely
>>> buy from Amazon, or even <gack> eBay.
>>>
>>>> After rereading your post I think I might grasp what you are saying. Maybe. But how can Festool control its retailers and no other company or product in the USA can exercise the same control? If Festool owned, controlled everyone who sells its products, then yes they can dictate prices. But all of the vendors for Festool are privately owned businesses. They are not Festool owned sellers, distributors. All of these companies sell Festool and a thousand other items. And I'm sure they compete on price with everyone else on all these other items. I guess SawStop is similar to Festool. I think, not positive, that SawStop also dictates a price for every saw they sell and that is the price. No competition for SawStop on price. Odd that Festool now owns SawStop.
>>>
>>> Others don't *choose* to control their retailers. Festool certainly
>>> isn't unique, either.
>>
>> Having a set retail price also offers the retailer a set margin.
>
>That would make more sense to me if the product was sold online only.
>Certainly the costs to be retailer in CA differ from those in OH, and
>the former could probably deal with the higher margins better. Think of
>the cost of the tool as a percentage of the price of a typical house in
>an area.

OTOH, where housing prices are high, wages tend to also be high. High
wages allow high-priced toys so they may sell more.

On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 20:10:02 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>By sale price on Festool I mean every vendor is free to sell the tool at a different price. Today every online seller, and every store in person sells every Festool for the exact same price. No one varies that price by $1 or $10 or $25. All exactly the same. I know Festool has reduced prices sort of when you combine a vacuum and big tool. Or a track saw and a track. Price is less than if you bought each item separately. But that is not what I am talking about when I say sale price. And all of these combination prices are the exact same with every single retailer. No one varies the bundled price by even $1. All are required, instructed by Festool to sell every single Festool tool at the prescribed MSRP that Festool states. In contrast, do a Google search for a Makita or DeWalt SCMS. You will have 20 Amazon vendors selling the saws for 20 different prices. And clicking on various Google links will turn up 25 other vendors all with different prices for the same SCMS. With
>Festool, every Kapex is sold for the exact same price no matter who or where you buy it. No freedom for the vendor to distinguish based on price.
>
>Just imagine if GM or Ford or Fiat told every car dealer selling their brand that they will only sell the cars/trucks for the price on the sticker. No dickering, no bargaining with customers. If you do then your car dealer lot will be closed before the sun sets and every car will be taken back and you will be sued in court.

You mean like Saturn and Tesla were "closed before the sun sets and
every car taken back and sued in court"?

I'm guessing this is illegal in the USA for cars. But somehow its
allowed for tools.

It is not illegal for a manufacturer to require resellers to charge a
specific price for a product. What is illegal is for manufacturers to
get together and decide that they are _all_ going to charge the same
price for a kind of product.

On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 20:16:45 -0400, [email protected] wrote:

>On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 23:51:44 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 10:39:37 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>> > Just imagine if GM or Ford or Fiat told every car dealer selling their brand that they will only sell the cars/trucks for the price on the sticker. No dickering, no bargaining with customers. If you do then your car dealer lot will be closed before the sun sets and every car will be taken back and you will be sued in court. I'm guessing this is illegal in the USA for cars. But somehow its allowed for tools.
>>> >
>>>
>>> If they were the only tool supplier, I believe things would be
>>> different. Festool does not have a monopoly (except on Festool tools),
>>> as there are plenty of suitably-equivalent tools.
>>
>>Not sure what you mean. Ford, GM, Fiat all make cars/trucks that compete with each other. Add in Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Hundai, Kia from Asia. And add in BMW, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Audi, Volvo from Europe. No car dealer has a monopoly. But you can and do negotiate an individual price from every car dealer for every brand. DeWalt, Makita, Milwaukee, Porter Cable all have different prices for every tool from all the different vendors selling these brands. Only Festool has one price no matter who sells it. It is the oddball out here.
>
>Remember Saturn? They tried the one price fits all. There's nothing
>stopping Ford from doing it, except bankruptcy.
>
>The reason Festool controls price is that it entices their retailers
>to sell by service, rather than price. It's why I buy from Highland
>rather than Amazon (or even Woodcraft). Highland does a better job of
>stocking and selling. OTOH, if I could save a Franklin, I'd likely
>buy from Amazon, or even <gack> eBay.
>
>>After rereading your post I think I might grasp what you are saying. Maybe. But how can Festool control its retailers and no other company or product in the USA can exercise the same control? If Festool owned, controlled everyone who sells its products, then yes they can dictate prices. But all of the vendors for Festool are privately owned businesses. They are not Festool owned sellers, distributors. All of these companies sell Festool and a thousand other items. And I'm sure they compete on price with everyone else on all these other items. I guess SawStop is similar to Festool. I think, not positive, that SawStop also dictates a price for every saw they sell and that is the price. No competition for SawStop on price. Odd that Festool now owns SawStop.
>
>Others don't *choose* to control their retailers. Festool certainly
>isn't unique, either.

Having a set retail price also offers the retailer a set margin.

On 3/16/2018 1:51 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 10:39:37 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> Just imagine if GM or Ford or Fiat told every car dealer selling their brand that they will only sell the cars/trucks for the price on the sticker. No dickering, no bargaining with customers. If you do then your car dealer lot will be closed before the sun sets and every car will be taken back and you will be sued in court. I'm guessing this is illegal in the USA for cars. But somehow its allowed for tools.
>>>
>>
>> If they were the only tool supplier, I believe things would be
>> different. Festool does not have a monopoly (except on Festool tools),
>> as there are plenty of suitably-equivalent tools.
>
> Not sure what you mean. Ford, GM, Fiat all make cars/trucks that compete with each other. Add in Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Hundai, Kia from Asia. And add in BMW, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Audi, Volvo from Europe. No car dealer has a monopoly. But you can and do negotiate an individual price from every car dealer for every brand.

As mentioned on another post, GM's Saturn line of vehicles only sold for
sticker. there was no negotiation on the price of the car as built by
Saturn. You could negotiate dealer add ons.




DeWalt, Makita, Milwaukee, Porter Cable all have different prices for
every tool from all the different vendors selling these brands. Only
Festool has one price no matter who sells it. It is the oddball out here.

SawStop also has fixed pricing. The other manufacturers allow discount
pricing because they want to up the volume of sales. And that typically
affects build quality.



>
> After rereading your post I think I might grasp what you are saying. Maybe. But how can Festool control its retailers and no other company or product in the USA can exercise the same control? If Festool owned, controlled everyone who sells its products, then yes they can dictate prices. But all of the vendors for Festool are privately owned businesses. They are not Festool owned sellers, distributors. All of these companies sell Festool and a thousand other items. And I'm sure they compete on price with everyone else on all these other items. I guess SawStop is similar to Festool. I think, not positive, that SawStop also dictates a price for every saw they sell and that is the price. No competition for SawStop on price. Odd that Festool now owns SawStop.
>

Actually I think the company that owns Festool bought SawStop.
TTS Tooltechnic Systems

On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 2:56:13 PM UTC-4, Bill wrote:
> Leon wrote:
> > On 3/16/2018 10:49 PM, Bill wrote:
> >> [email protected] wrote:
> >>
> >>> Wah!=C2=A0 I can't afford Festool!=C2=A0 Good grief, they're not comp=
arable at
> >>> all.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> I bought myself a belt/disk sander for Christmas on sale for $80.
> >> That's my idea of fun.=C2=A0 : )=C2=A0 If it turns out I really use it=
, I can=20
> >> always upgrade it.
> >=20
> >=20
> > And that is kind of an expensive sander.=C2=A0 If you really use it?=C2=
=A0 Why buy=20
> > it if you do not have a use for it?
>=20
>=20
> Come spring, when I unpack it I will learn better what it can, or=20
> perhaps cannot, do. I hope my 6" disk sander can do some of the things=
=20
> that you use your 12" disk sander for. If the belt works on metal, that=
=20
> will be nice. Along with the tool will come the learning...try to buy=20
> "learning" anywhere these days for $80! ; )

At $80, one of the things that you might learn is that it's pretty easy to=
=20
stall. DAMHIKT

On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 13:52:16 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wednesday, March 14, 2018 at 9:24:48 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>> http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/power-tools/hitachi-power-tools-gets-a-new-name_o?utm_source=newsletter&utm_content=Product-Article&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=TOTT_031318A%20%281%29%20A&he=bec4d8d422980f163c46356739c05c6eecb92632
>
>I've known about Hitachi for awhile. Air nailers and miter saws were the two most common Hitachi tools. Always considered them construction crew tools. Not fine woodworking tools used inside a shop. Always use them outside in the rain and dirt making houses, never furniture. Never heard of Metabo until pretty recently. Had heard of Hilti before Metabo. Got lucky (Ha Ha) being introduced to Festool about 10 years ago when a big tool store in town brought them in and had a big sale on them. I guess back then the no sale prices on Festool rule, everyone must sell the tools at the exact same price rule, was not as rigidly enforced by Festool.

Festool does run sales occasionally. I've bought a few of their tools
on sale.

>Metabo HPT (Hitachi Power Tools).

On 3/14/2018 12:18 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:02:42 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/14/2018 10:01 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/14/18 9:24 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>> http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/power-tools/hitachi-power-tools-gets-a-new-name_o?utm_source=newsletter&utm_content=Product-Article&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=TOTT_031318A%20%281%29%20A&he=bec4d8d422980f163c46356739c05c6eecb92632
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting!   I've always been intrigued by the Metabo brand.
>>> Funny that Hitachi buys the company for name recognition, but folks in
>>> the US (for the most part) have never heard of Metabo but everyone knows
>>> Hitachi.   Apparently, they want more of the Euro market.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Yes very interesting. But my thoughts, I have known about Metabo,
>> probably longer than Festool. I knew it was an upper end brand, German
>> IIRC. IMHO Hitachi has always been a good value tool but again IMHO did
>> not ever have unique features, other then their tools looking a lot like
>> a fancy design tennis shoe. Perhaps, like you said, they want to profit
>> more from Euro sales of Metabo products. Hopefully the Hitachi built
>> tools with the Metabo name plate will retain the same quality and
>> features that the Metabo brand has offered in the past. One might
>> imagine that Hitachi hopes to boost sales with the Metabo name plate
>> here in the US.
>
> Unless they market more of their tools here, I don't see that
> happening. I wouldn't buy a Metabo nailer unless there was a wide
> variety of other tools for sale right next to it.

It seems most major cities, at least in Texas, has a Metabo service
center. There are multiple on-line sources, including Amazon, that sell
their products. Looking at their web page they offer, a variety of
drills, grinders, track saws, vacs, etc.




>
> My Hitachi framing nailer does resemble a tennierunner. ;-)
>

On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 2:51:47 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 10:39:37 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
> > [email protected] wrote:
> >=20
> > > Just imagine if GM or Ford or Fiat told every car dealer selling thei=
r brand that they will only sell the cars/trucks for the price on the stick=
er. No dickering, no bargaining with customers. If you do then your car d=
ealer lot will be closed before the sun sets and every car will be taken ba=
ck and you will be sued in court. I'm guessing this is illegal in the USA =
for cars. But somehow its allowed for tools.
> > >=20
> >=20
> > If they were the only tool supplier, I believe things would be=20
> > different. Festool does not have a monopoly (except on Festool tools),=
=20
> > as there are plenty of suitably-equivalent tools.
>=20
> Not sure what you mean. Ford, GM, Fiat all make cars/trucks that compete=
with each other. Add in Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Hundai, Kia from A=
sia. And add in BMW, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Audi, Volvo from Europe. No ca=
r dealer has a monopoly. But you can and do negotiate an individual price =
from every car dealer for every brand. DeWalt, Makita, Milwaukee, Porter C=
able all have different prices for every tool from all the different vendor=
s selling these brands. Only Festool has one price no matter who sells it.=
It is the oddball out here.
>=20
> After rereading your post I think I might grasp what you are saying. May=
be. But how can Festool control its retailers and no other company or prod=
uct in the USA can exercise the same control? =20

If I'm not mistaken, Ariens, of snow blower fame, does the same thing.

They set the regular price and they tell the vendors when to run a sale and=
set those prices too.

I'd bet there are other companies that do the same thing,


If Festool owned, controlled everyone who sells its products, then yes they=
can dictate prices. But all of the vendors for Festool are privately owne=
d businesses. They are not Festool owned sellers, distributors. All of th=
ese companies sell Festool and a thousand other items. And I'm sure they c=
ompete on price with everyone else on all these other items. I guess SawSt=
op is similar to Festool. I think, not positive, that SawStop also dictate=
s a price for every saw they sell and that is the price. No competition fo=
r SawStop on price. Odd that Festool now owns SawStop.

On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 11:30:57 PM UTC-4, Bill wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 23:04:24 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> >=20
> >> [email protected] wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 21:09:27 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote=
:
> >>>
> >>>> Markem wrote:
> >>>>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 20:16:45 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 23:51:44 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]=
m"
> >>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 10:39:37 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
> >>>>>>>> [email protected] wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Just imagine if GM or Ford or Fiat told every car dealer sellin=
g their brand that they will only sell the cars/trucks for the price on the=
sticker. No dickering, no bargaining with customers. If you do then your=
car dealer lot will be closed before the sun sets and every car will be ta=
ken back and you will be sued in court. I'm guessing this is illegal in th=
e USA for cars. But somehow its allowed for tools.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> If they were the only tool supplier, I believe things would be
> >>>>>>>> different. Festool does not have a monopoly (except on Festool =
tools),
> >>>>>>>> as there are plenty of suitably-equivalent tools.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Not sure what you mean. Ford, GM, Fiat all make cars/trucks that=
compete with each other. Add in Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Hundai, Ki=
a from Asia. And add in BMW, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Audi, Volvo from Europe=
. No car dealer has a monopoly. But you can and do negotiate an individua=
l price from every car dealer for every brand. DeWalt, Makita, Milwaukee, =
Porter Cable all have different prices for every tool from all the differen=
t vendors selling these brands. Only Festool has one price no matter who s=
ells it. It is the oddball out here.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Remember Saturn? They tried the one price fits all. There's noth=
ing
> >>>>>> stopping Ford from doing it, except bankruptcy.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The reason Festool controls price is that it entices their retaile=
rs
> >>>>>> to sell by service, rather than price. It's why I buy from Highla=
nd
> >>>>>> rather than Amazon (or even Woodcraft). Highland does a better jo=
b of
> >>>>>> stocking and selling. OTOH, if I could save a Franklin, I'd likel=
y
> >>>>>> buy from Amazon, or even <gack> eBay.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> After rereading your post I think I might grasp what you are sayi=
ng. Maybe. But how can Festool control its retailers and no other company=
or product in the USA can exercise the same control? If Festool owned, co=
ntrolled everyone who sells its products, then yes they can dictate prices.=
But all of the vendors for Festool are privately owned businesses. They =
are not Festool owned sellers, distributors. All of these companies sell F=
estool and a thousand other items. And I'm sure they compete on price with=
everyone else on all these other items. I guess SawStop is similar to Fes=
tool. I think, not positive, that SawStop also dictates a price for every =
saw they sell and that is the price. No competition for SawStop on price. =
Odd that Festool now owns SawStop.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Others don't *choose* to control their retailers. Festool certain=
ly
> >>>>>> isn't unique, either.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Having a set retail price also offers the retailer a set margin.
> >>>>
> >>>> That would make more sense to me if the product was sold online only=
.
> >>>> Certainly the costs to be retailer in CA differ from those in OH, an=
d
> >>>> the former could probably deal with the higher margins better. Think=
of
> >>>> the cost of the tool as a percentage of the price of a typical house=
in
> >>>> an area.
> >>>
> >>> OTOH, where housing prices are high, wages tend to also be high. Hig=
h
> >>> wages allow high-priced toys so they may sell more.
> >>>
> >>
> >> That's exactly the point I was making. Maybe it would make sense to
> >> retail some for less in OH where the cost of conducting business isn't
> >> as high... That's sort of the equilibrium for an unregulated market, =
I
> >> think.
> >=20
> > My point was that there may be a comparable profit between the two.
> > The retailer in the not-so-expensive area can't sell as many units but
> > he doesn't have to. The opposite is also likely. However, there
> > isn't a lot of incentive to sell (buy, really) in the other's
> > territory.
> >=20
>=20
> As far as I'm concerned, they can sell them for whatever they want since=
=20
> I'm not in their target audience. I watched some interesting videos on=
=20
> YouTube this week, for car salesman, on "Closing the sale and getting=20
> the sticker price". Festool's philosophy appears to be not so much=20
> different.

Car case: Product has an MSRP on the sticker. The S stands for "suggested".=
Suggested implies
negotiable. A slimy sales dweep talks some poor slug into paying full pric=
e. The next customer=20
is more savvy than the last. (S)he buys the same car for thousands less.

Festool case: That's the price. Non-negotiable. The salesman says "Would yo=
u like to buy it?"

How are those things "not so much different"?

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Leon wrote:

> I would imagine that to become a SawStop or Festool dealer you probably
> sign a contract that says that you will sell at suggested retail pricing
> or lose your license to sell their products.


Or, maybe all it takes is a clause that Festool can rescind your
privilege to retail their products at any time, or for any reason.

On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 16:11:42 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 3/15/2018 3:52 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wednesday, March 14, 2018 at 9:24:48 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>>> http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/power-tools/hitachi-power-tools-gets-a-new-name_o?utm_source=newsletter&utm_content=Product-Article&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=TOTT_031318A%20%281%29%20A&he=bec4d8d422980f163c46356739c05c6eecb92632
>>
>> I've known about Hitachi for awhile. Air nailers and miter saws were the two most common Hitachi tools. Always considered them construction crew tools. Not fine woodworking tools used inside a shop. Always use them outside in the rain and dirt making houses, never furniture. Never heard of Metabo until pretty recently. Had heard of Hilti before Metabo. Got lucky (Ha Ha) being introduced to Festool about 10 years ago when a big tool store in town brought them in and had a big sale on them. I guess back then the no sale prices on Festool rule, everyone must sell the tools at the exact same price rule, was not as rigidly enforced by Festool.
>>
>> Metabo HPT (Hitachi Power Tools).
>>
>
>
>I recall Lowe's selling Hitachi Table Saws, Miter Saws, Drills, and
>probably 15-20+ years ago the Canadian father and son show, The Router
>Workshop, almost exclusively used Hitachi routers. It seems back in the
>late 90's many on this news group had Hitachi routers hanging in a
>router table.

Lowes still sells Hitachi tools.

>I probably heard about Metabo about 25 years ago. IIRC Steve Night Tool
>Works used Metabo drills.

I've certainly heard of them but have never seen one in the wild.

>I think Festool went with fixed pricing when they quit selling direct to
>the customer. But you can still get discount pricing on Festool Tools
>if you buy combinations of tools. I got a significant discount when
>buying the Dust Extractor and buying another power tool, in my case the
>Domino, to go with it. When I bought the Kapex, it's mobile cart plus
>the left and right wing extensions I got a discount on the cart and wing
>extensions. If you bought the cart and both wing extensions as a
>combination you paid the same price as the cart and 1 wing extension.

They've run sales every once in a while, too. I've bought a few tools
on sale. Remember the Pro-5 sale? ;-)

On Wednesday, March 14, 2018 at 9:24:48 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/power-tools/hitachi-power-tools-gets-a-new=
-name_o?utm_source=3Dnewsletter&utm_content=3DProduct-Article&utm_medium=3D=
email&utm_campaign=3DTOTT_031318A%20%281%29%20A&he=3Dbec4d8d422980f163c4635=
6739c05c6eecb92632

I've known about Hitachi for awhile. Air nailers and miter saws were the t=
wo most common Hitachi tools. Always considered them construction crew too=
ls. Not fine woodworking tools used inside a shop. Always use them outsid=
e in the rain and dirt making houses, never furniture. Never heard of Meta=
bo until pretty recently. Had heard of Hilti before Metabo. Got lucky (Ha=
Ha) being introduced to Festool about 10 years ago when a big tool store i=
n town brought them in and had a big sale on them. I guess back then the n=
o sale prices on Festool rule, everyone must sell the tools at the exact sa=
me price rule, was not as rigidly enforced by Festool.

Metabo HPT (Hitachi Power Tools).

On 3/15/2018 3:52 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 14, 2018 at 9:24:48 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>> http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/power-tools/hitachi-power-tools-gets-a-new-name_o?utm_source=newsletter&utm_content=Product-Article&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=TOTT_031318A%20%281%29%20A&he=bec4d8d422980f163c46356739c05c6eecb92632
>
> I've known about Hitachi for awhile. Air nailers and miter saws were the two most common Hitachi tools. Always considered them construction crew tools. Not fine woodworking tools used inside a shop. Always use them outside in the rain and dirt making houses, never furniture. Never heard of Metabo until pretty recently. Had heard of Hilti before Metabo. Got lucky (Ha Ha) being introduced to Festool about 10 years ago when a big tool store in town brought them in and had a big sale on them. I guess back then the no sale prices on Festool rule, everyone must sell the tools at the exact same price rule, was not as rigidly enforced by Festool.
>
> Metabo HPT (Hitachi Power Tools).
>


I recall Lowe's selling Hitachi Table Saws, Miter Saws, Drills, and
probably 15-20+ years ago the Canadian father and son show, The Router
Workshop, almost exclusively used Hitachi routers. It seems back in the
late 90's many on this news group had Hitachi routers hanging in a
router table.

I probably heard about Metabo about 25 years ago. IIRC Steve Night Tool
Works used Metabo drills.

I think Festool went with fixed pricing when they quit selling direct to
the customer. But you can still get discount pricing on Festool Tools
if you buy combinations of tools. I got a significant discount when
buying the Dust Extractor and buying another power tool, in my case the
Domino, to go with it. When I bought the Kapex, it's mobile cart plus
the left and right wing extensions I got a discount on the cart and wing
extensions. If you bought the cart and both wing extensions as a
combination you paid the same price as the cart and 1 wing extension.

[email protected] wrote:
> On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 10:39:37 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> Just imagine if GM or Ford or Fiat told every car dealer selling their brand that they will only sell the cars/trucks for the price on the sticker. No dickering, no bargaining with customers. If you do then your car dealer lot will be closed before the sun sets and every car will be taken back and you will be sued in court. I'm guessing this is illegal in the USA for cars. But somehow its allowed for tools.
>>>
>>
>> If they were the only tool supplier, I believe things would be
>> different. Festool does not have a monopoly (except on Festool tools),
>> as there are plenty of suitably-equivalent tools.
>
> Not sure what you mean. Ford, GM, Fiat all make cars/trucks that compete with each other. Add in Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Hundai, Kia from Asia. And add in BMW, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Audi, Volvo from Europe. No car dealer has a monopoly. But you can and do negotiate an individual price from every car dealer for every brand. DeWalt, Makita, Milwaukee, Porter Cable all have different prices for every tool from all the different vendors selling these brands. Only Festool has one price no matter who sells it. It is the oddball out here.
>
> After rereading your post I think I might grasp what you are saying. Maybe. But how can Festool control its retailers and no other company or product in the USA can exercise the same control? If Festool owned, controlled everyone who sells its products, then yes they can dictate prices. But all of the vendors for Festool are privately owned businesses.

Yes, but evidently, if you wish to be a Festool dealer you have to
follow Festool's rules. I am not a lawyer, so I don't know anything
about the legality of fixing a uniform price. Below you say that
Festool now owns SawStop. I didn't realize that. It makes perfect sense
though to me, based upon the price-point of the products. Marketing will
be easier--"economies of scale", and all that...

Bill


They are not Festool owned sellers, distributors. All of these
companies sell Festool and a thousand other items. And I'm sure they
compete on price with everyone else on all these other items. I guess
SawStop is similar to Festool. I think, not positive, that SawStop also
dictates a price for every saw they sell and that is the price. No
competition for SawStop on price. Odd that Festool now owns SawStop.
>

On 3/16/2018 10:49 PM, Bill wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>> Wah!  I can't afford Festool!  Good grief, they're not comparable at
>> all.
>>
>
>
> I bought myself a belt/disk sander for Christmas on sale for $80.
> That's my idea of fun.  : )  If it turns out I really use it, I can
> always upgrade it.


And that is kind of an expensive sander. If you really use it? Why buy
it if you do not have a use for it?

Unfortunately almost all of us have bought a neat tool, because it was
cool, and then never use it.

;~) I have one of those belt/disk sanders too, it was given to me.
Because I mostly build furniture it is way too small to be useful. I do
have a 12" disk sander that is great for smoothing convex curves,
rounding corners, and shortening Domino tenons to name a few. Oh and
also putting the round profile on the drawer pulls that I make.

[email protected] wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 23:04:24 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 21:09:27 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Markem wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 20:16:45 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 23:51:44 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 10:39:37 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just imagine if GM or Ford or Fiat told every car dealer selling their brand that they will only sell the cars/trucks for the price on the sticker. No dickering, no bargaining with customers. If you do then your car dealer lot will be closed before the sun sets and every car will be taken back and you will be sued in court. I'm guessing this is illegal in the USA for cars. But somehow its allowed for tools.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If they were the only tool supplier, I believe things would be
>>>>>>>> different. Festool does not have a monopoly (except on Festool tools),
>>>>>>>> as there are plenty of suitably-equivalent tools.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not sure what you mean. Ford, GM, Fiat all make cars/trucks that compete with each other. Add in Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Hundai, Kia from Asia. And add in BMW, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Audi, Volvo from Europe. No car dealer has a monopoly. But you can and do negotiate an individual price from every car dealer for every brand. DeWalt, Makita, Milwaukee, Porter Cable all have different prices for every tool from all the different vendors selling these brands. Only Festool has one price no matter who sells it. It is the oddball out here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Remember Saturn? They tried the one price fits all. There's nothing
>>>>>> stopping Ford from doing it, except bankruptcy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The reason Festool controls price is that it entices their retailers
>>>>>> to sell by service, rather than price. It's why I buy from Highland
>>>>>> rather than Amazon (or even Woodcraft). Highland does a better job of
>>>>>> stocking and selling. OTOH, if I could save a Franklin, I'd likely
>>>>>> buy from Amazon, or even <gack> eBay.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After rereading your post I think I might grasp what you are saying. Maybe. But how can Festool control its retailers and no other company or product in the USA can exercise the same control? If Festool owned, controlled everyone who sells its products, then yes they can dictate prices. But all of the vendors for Festool are privately owned businesses. They are not Festool owned sellers, distributors. All of these companies sell Festool and a thousand other items. And I'm sure they compete on price with everyone else on all these other items. I guess SawStop is similar to Festool. I think, not positive, that SawStop also dictates a price for every saw they sell and that is the price. No competition for SawStop on price. Odd that Festool now owns SawStop.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Others don't *choose* to control their retailers. Festool certainly
>>>>>> isn't unique, either.
>>>>>
>>>>> Having a set retail price also offers the retailer a set margin.
>>>>
>>>> That would make more sense to me if the product was sold online only.
>>>> Certainly the costs to be retailer in CA differ from those in OH, and
>>>> the former could probably deal with the higher margins better. Think of
>>>> the cost of the tool as a percentage of the price of a typical house in
>>>> an area.
>>>
>>> OTOH, where housing prices are high, wages tend to also be high. High
>>> wages allow high-priced toys so they may sell more.
>>>
>>
>> That's exactly the point I was making. Maybe it would make sense to
>> retail some for less in OH where the cost of conducting business isn't
>> as high... That's sort of the equilibrium for an unregulated market, I
>> think.
>
> My point was that there may be a comparable profit between the two.
> The retailer in the not-so-expensive area can't sell as many units but
> he doesn't have to. The opposite is also likely. However, there
> isn't a lot of incentive to sell (buy, really) in the other's
> territory.
>

As far as I'm concerned, they can sell them for whatever they want since
I'm not in their target audience. I watched some interesting videos on
YouTube this week, for car salesman, on "Closing the sale and getting
the sticker price". Festool's philosophy appears to be not so much
different.

On 3/16/2018 2:22 AM, Bill wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>> On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 10:39:37 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>> Just imagine if GM or Ford or Fiat told every car dealer selling
>>>> their brand that they will only sell the cars/trucks for the price
>>>> on the sticker.  No dickering, no bargaining with customers.  If you
>>>> do then your car dealer lot will be closed before the sun sets and
>>>> every car will be taken back and you will be sued in court.  I'm
>>>> guessing this is illegal in the USA for cars.  But somehow its
>>>> allowed for tools.
>>>>
>>>
>>> If they were the only tool supplier, I believe things would be
>>> different.  Festool does not have a monopoly (except on Festool tools),
>>> as there are plenty of suitably-equivalent tools.
>>
>> Not sure what you mean.  Ford, GM, Fiat all make cars/trucks that
>> compete with each other.  Add in Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru,
>> Hundai, Kia from Asia.  And add in BMW, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Audi,
>> Volvo from Europe.  No car dealer has a monopoly.  But you can and do
>> negotiate an individual price from every car dealer for every brand.
>> DeWalt, Makita, Milwaukee, Porter Cable all have different prices for
>> every tool from all the different vendors selling these brands.  Only
>> Festool has one price no matter who sells it.  It is the oddball out
>> here.
>>
>> After rereading your post I think I might grasp what you are saying.
>> Maybe.  But how can Festool control its retailers and no other company
>> or product in the USA can exercise the same control?  If Festool
>> owned, controlled everyone who sells its products, then yes they can
>> dictate prices.  But all of the vendors for Festool are privately
>> owned businesses.
>
> Yes, but evidently, if you wish to be a Festool dealer you have to
> follow Festool's rules. I am not a lawyer, so I don't know anything
> about the legality of fixing a uniform price.  Below you say that
> Festool now owns SawStop.  I didn't realize that. It makes perfect sense
> though to me, based upon the price-point of the products. Marketing will
> be easier--"economies of scale", and all that...

The inventor/developer of the SawStop was a lawyer. I think the
monopoly thing is if the dealers agree to fix pricing and that is where
there problem comes in. They also probably sign a contract with the
manufacturer to sell at suggested retail or loose their license to sell
their products.



>
> Bill
>
>
> They are not Festool owned sellers, distributors.  All of these
> companies sell Festool and a thousand other items.  And I'm sure they
> compete on price with everyone else on all these other items.  I guess
> SawStop is similar to Festool.  I think, not positive, that SawStop also
> dictates a price for every saw they sell and that is the price.  No
> competition for SawStop on price.  Odd that Festool now owns SawStop.
>>
>

[email protected] wrote:

> Just imagine if GM or Ford or Fiat told every car dealer selling their brand that they will only sell the cars/trucks for the price on the sticker. No dickering, no bargaining with customers. If you do then your car dealer lot will be closed before the sun sets and every car will be taken back and you will be sued in court. I'm guessing this is illegal in the USA for cars. But somehow its allowed for tools.
>

If they were the only tool supplier, I believe things would be
different. Festool does not have a monopoly (except on Festool tools),
as there are plenty of suitably-equivalent tools.

[email protected] wrote:

> Wah! I can't afford Festool! Good grief, they're not comparable at
> all.
>


I bought myself a belt/disk sander for Christmas on sale for $80.
That's my idea of fun. : ) If it turns out I really use it, I can
always upgrade it.

On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 11:04:30 PM UTC-4, Bill wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 21:09:27 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> >=20
> >> Markem wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 20:16:45 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 23:51:44 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
> >>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 10:39:37 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
> >>>>>> [email protected] wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Just imagine if GM or Ford or Fiat told every car dealer selling =
their brand that they will only sell the cars/trucks for the price on the s=
ticker. No dickering, no bargaining with customers. If you do then your c=
ar dealer lot will be closed before the sun sets and every car will be take=
n back and you will be sued in court. I'm guessing this is illegal in the =
USA for cars. But somehow its allowed for tools.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If they were the only tool supplier, I believe things would be
> >>>>>> different. Festool does not have a monopoly (except on Festool to=
ols),
> >>>>>> as there are plenty of suitably-equivalent tools.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Not sure what you mean. Ford, GM, Fiat all make cars/trucks that c=
ompete with each other. Add in Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Hundai, Kia =
from Asia. And add in BMW, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Audi, Volvo from Europe. =
No car dealer has a monopoly. But you can and do negotiate an individual =
price from every car dealer for every brand. DeWalt, Makita, Milwaukee, Po=
rter Cable all have different prices for every tool from all the different =
vendors selling these brands. Only Festool has one price no matter who sel=
ls it. It is the oddball out here.
> >>>>
> >>>> Remember Saturn? They tried the one price fits all. There's nothin=
g
> >>>> stopping Ford from doing it, except bankruptcy.
> >>>>
> >>>> The reason Festool controls price is that it entices their retailers
> >>>> to sell by service, rather than price. It's why I buy from Highland
> >>>> rather than Amazon (or even Woodcraft). Highland does a better job =
of
> >>>> stocking and selling. OTOH, if I could save a Franklin, I'd likely
> >>>> buy from Amazon, or even <gack> eBay.
> >>>>
> >>>>> After rereading your post I think I might grasp what you are saying=
. Maybe. But how can Festool control its retailers and no other company o=
r product in the USA can exercise the same control? If Festool owned, cont=
rolled everyone who sells its products, then yes they can dictate prices. =
But all of the vendors for Festool are privately owned businesses. They ar=
e not Festool owned sellers, distributors. All of these companies sell Fes=
tool and a thousand other items. And I'm sure they compete on price with e=
veryone else on all these other items. I guess SawStop is similar to Festo=
ol. I think, not positive, that SawStop also dictates a price for every sa=
w they sell and that is the price. No competition for SawStop on price. O=
dd that Festool now owns SawStop.
> >>>>
> >>>> Others don't *choose* to control their retailers. Festool certainly
> >>>> isn't unique, either.
> >>>
> >>> Having a set retail price also offers the retailer a set margin.
> >>
> >> That would make more sense to me if the product was sold online only.
> >> Certainly the costs to be retailer in CA differ from those in OH, and
> >> the former could probably deal with the higher margins better. Think o=
f
> >> the cost of the tool as a percentage of the price of a typical house i=
n
> >> an area.
> >=20
> > OTOH, where housing prices are high, wages tend to also be high. High
> > wages allow high-priced toys so they may sell more.
> >=20
>=20
> That's exactly the point I was making. Maybe it would make sense to=20
> retail some for less in OH where the cost of conducting business isn't=20
> as high... That's sort of the equilibrium for an unregulated market, I=
=20
> think.

Some folks will drive quite a distance to get a better price, especially if=
they can combine the
trip with other reasons. Trying to set prices in neighboring areas such tha=
t one area doesn't=20
steal customers from the other can be quite a chore. Try doing that all acr=
oss the country and
not harm any given retailer.

On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 23:30:51 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 23:04:24 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 21:09:27 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Markem wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 20:16:45 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 23:51:44 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 10:39:37 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Just imagine if GM or Ford or Fiat told every car dealer selling their brand that they will only sell the cars/trucks for the price on the sticker. No dickering, no bargaining with customers. If you do then your car dealer lot will be closed before the sun sets and every car will be taken back and you will be sued in court. I'm guessing this is illegal in the USA for cars. But somehow its allowed for tools.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If they were the only tool supplier, I believe things would be
>>>>>>>>> different. Festool does not have a monopoly (except on Festool tools),
>>>>>>>>> as there are plenty of suitably-equivalent tools.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not sure what you mean. Ford, GM, Fiat all make cars/trucks that compete with each other. Add in Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Hundai, Kia from Asia. And add in BMW, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Audi, Volvo from Europe. No car dealer has a monopoly. But you can and do negotiate an individual price from every car dealer for every brand. DeWalt, Makita, Milwaukee, Porter Cable all have different prices for every tool from all the different vendors selling these brands. Only Festool has one price no matter who sells it. It is the oddball out here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Remember Saturn? They tried the one price fits all. There's nothing
>>>>>>> stopping Ford from doing it, except bankruptcy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The reason Festool controls price is that it entices their retailers
>>>>>>> to sell by service, rather than price. It's why I buy from Highland
>>>>>>> rather than Amazon (or even Woodcraft). Highland does a better job of
>>>>>>> stocking and selling. OTOH, if I could save a Franklin, I'd likely
>>>>>>> buy from Amazon, or even <gack> eBay.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> After rereading your post I think I might grasp what you are saying. Maybe. But how can Festool control its retailers and no other company or product in the USA can exercise the same control? If Festool owned, controlled everyone who sells its products, then yes they can dictate prices. But all of the vendors for Festool are privately owned businesses. They are not Festool owned sellers, distributors. All of these companies sell Festool and a thousand other items. And I'm sure they compete on price with everyone else on all these other items. I guess SawStop is similar to Festool. I think, not positive, that SawStop also dictates a price for every saw they sell and that is the price. No competition for SawStop on price. Odd that Festool now owns SawStop.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Others don't *choose* to control their retailers. Festool certainly
>>>>>>> isn't unique, either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Having a set retail price also offers the retailer a set margin.
>>>>>
>>>>> That would make more sense to me if the product was sold online only.
>>>>> Certainly the costs to be retailer in CA differ from those in OH, and
>>>>> the former could probably deal with the higher margins better. Think of
>>>>> the cost of the tool as a percentage of the price of a typical house in
>>>>> an area.
>>>>
>>>> OTOH, where housing prices are high, wages tend to also be high. High
>>>> wages allow high-priced toys so they may sell more.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's exactly the point I was making. Maybe it would make sense to
>>> retail some for less in OH where the cost of conducting business isn't
>>> as high... That's sort of the equilibrium for an unregulated market, I
>>> think.
>>
>> My point was that there may be a comparable profit between the two.
>> The retailer in the not-so-expensive area can't sell as many units but
>> he doesn't have to. The opposite is also likely. However, there
>> isn't a lot of incentive to sell (buy, really) in the other's
>> territory.
>>
>
>As far as I'm concerned, they can sell them for whatever they want since
> I'm not in their target audience. I watched some interesting videos on
>YouTube this week, for car salesman, on "Closing the sale and getting
>the sticker price". Festool's philosophy appears to be not so much
>different.
>
Wah! I can't afford Festool! Good grief, they're not comparable at
all.

DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 11:30:57 PM UTC-4, Bill wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 23:04:24 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 21:09:27 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Markem wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 20:16:45 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 23:51:44 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 10:39:37 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Just imagine if GM or Ford or Fiat told every car dealer selling their brand that they will only sell the cars/trucks for the price on the sticker. No dickering, no bargaining with customers. If you do then your car dealer lot will be closed before the sun sets and every car will be taken back and you will be sued in court. I'm guessing this is illegal in the USA for cars. But somehow its allowed for tools.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If they were the only tool supplier, I believe things would be
>>>>>>>>>> different. Festool does not have a monopoly (except on Festool tools),
>>>>>>>>>> as there are plenty of suitably-equivalent tools.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not sure what you mean. Ford, GM, Fiat all make cars/trucks that compete with each other. Add in Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Hundai, Kia from Asia. And add in BMW, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Audi, Volvo from Europe. No car dealer has a monopoly. But you can and do negotiate an individual price from every car dealer for every brand. DeWalt, Makita, Milwaukee, Porter Cable all have different prices for every tool from all the different vendors selling these brands. Only Festool has one price no matter who sells it. It is the oddball out here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Remember Saturn? They tried the one price fits all. There's nothing
>>>>>>>> stopping Ford from doing it, except bankruptcy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The reason Festool controls price is that it entices their retailers
>>>>>>>> to sell by service, rather than price. It's why I buy from Highland
>>>>>>>> rather than Amazon (or even Woodcraft). Highland does a better job of
>>>>>>>> stocking and selling. OTOH, if I could save a Franklin, I'd likely
>>>>>>>> buy from Amazon, or even <gack> eBay.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> After rereading your post I think I might grasp what you are saying. Maybe. But how can Festool control its retailers and no other company or product in the USA can exercise the same control? If Festool owned, controlled everyone who sells its products, then yes they can dictate prices. But all of the vendors for Festool are privately owned businesses. They are not Festool owned sellers, distributors. All of these companies sell Festool and a thousand other items. And I'm sure they compete on price with everyone else on all these other items. I guess SawStop is similar to Festool. I think, not positive, that SawStop also dictates a price for every saw they sell and that is the price. No competition for SawStop on price. Odd that Festool now owns SawStop.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Others don't *choose* to control their retailers. Festool certainly
>>>>>>>> isn't unique, either.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Having a set retail price also offers the retailer a set margin.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That would make more sense to me if the product was sold online only.
>>>>>> Certainly the costs to be retailer in CA differ from those in OH, and
>>>>>> the former could probably deal with the higher margins better. Think of
>>>>>> the cost of the tool as a percentage of the price of a typical house in
>>>>>> an area.
>>>>>
>>>>> OTOH, where housing prices are high, wages tend to also be high. High
>>>>> wages allow high-priced toys so they may sell more.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's exactly the point I was making. Maybe it would make sense to
>>>> retail some for less in OH where the cost of conducting business isn't
>>>> as high... That's sort of the equilibrium for an unregulated market, I
>>>> think.
>>>
>>> My point was that there may be a comparable profit between the two.
>>> The retailer in the not-so-expensive area can't sell as many units but
>>> he doesn't have to. The opposite is also likely. However, there
>>> isn't a lot of incentive to sell (buy, really) in the other's
>>> territory.
>>>
>>
>> As far as I'm concerned, they can sell them for whatever they want since
>> I'm not in their target audience. I watched some interesting videos on
>> YouTube this week, for car salesman, on "Closing the sale and getting
>> the sticker price". Festool's philosophy appears to be not so much
>> different.
>
> Car case: Product has an MSRP on the sticker. The S stands for "suggested". Suggested implies
> negotiable. A slimy sales dweep talks some poor slug into paying full price. The next customer
> is more savvy than the last. (S)he buys the same car for thousands less.
>
> Festool case: That's the price. Non-negotiable. The salesman says "Would you like to buy it?"
>
> How are those things "not so much different"?

The manufacturer is playing the role of the "slimy sales dweep"?

By sale price on Festool I mean every vendor is free to sell the tool at a =
different price. Today every online seller, and every store in person sell=
s every Festool for the exact same price. No one varies that price by $1 o=
r $10 or $25. All exactly the same. I know Festool has reduced prices sor=
t of when you combine a vacuum and big tool. Or a track saw and a track. =
Price is less than if you bought each item separately. But that is not wha=
t I am talking about when I say sale price. And all of these combination p=
rices are the exact same with every single retailer. No one varies the bun=
dled price by even $1. All are required, instructed by Festool to sell eve=
ry single Festool tool at the prescribed MSRP that Festool states. In cont=
rast, do a Google search for a Makita or DeWalt SCMS. You will have 20 Ama=
zon vendors selling the saws for 20 different prices. And clicking on vari=
ous Google links will turn up 25 other vendors all with different prices fo=
r the same SCMS. With Festool, every Kapex is sold for the exact same pric=
e no matter who or where you buy it. No freedom for the vendor to distingu=
ish based on price.

Just imagine if GM or Ford or Fiat told every car dealer selling their bran=
d that they will only sell the cars/trucks for the price on the sticker. N=
o dickering, no bargaining with customers. If you do then your car dealer =
lot will be closed before the sun sets and every car will be taken back and=
you will be sued in court. I'm guessing this is illegal in the USA for ca=
rs. But somehow its allowed for tools.

On 3/17/2018 1:56 PM, Bill wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 3/16/2018 10:49 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wah!  I can't afford Festool!  Good grief, they're not comparable at
>>>> all.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I bought myself a belt/disk sander for Christmas on sale for $80.
>>> That's my idea of fun.  : )  If it turns out I really use it, I can
>>> always upgrade it.
>>
>>
>> And that is kind of an expensive sander.  If you really use it?  Why
>> buy it if you do not have a use for it?
>
>
> Come spring, when I unpack it I will learn better what it can,  or
> perhaps cannot, do.  I hope my 6" disk sander can do some of the things
> that you use your 12" disk sander for.

Not likely, but don't take that the wrong way. I use the outer edge of
the disk sander. Soooo the outer perimeter speed is much faster than
the one on a 6" sander. The larger and probably much heavier disk will
cut through wood with little effort. If both disks are turning the same
RPM my 12" disk will be cutting twice as fast and the paper will be
lasting twice as long. And with the 12" cast iron disk it takes a lot
of pressure to slow it down.

I would love to have an even larger disk sander.




If the belt works on metal, that
> will be nice.  Along with the tool will come the learning...try to buy
> "learning" anywhere these days for $80!  ; )

The belt is good for rough sanding and or shaping.


>
>
>>
>> Unfortunately almost all of us have bought a neat tool, because it was
>> cool, and then never use it.
>
> My toolbox has paid for itself many times over and continues to do so.
> Every once in while I buy it "gifts".  : )

;~)

On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 10:39:37 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>=20
> > Just imagine if GM or Ford or Fiat told every car dealer selling their =
brand that they will only sell the cars/trucks for the price on the sticker=
. No dickering, no bargaining with customers. If you do then your car dea=
ler lot will be closed before the sun sets and every car will be taken back=
and you will be sued in court. I'm guessing this is illegal in the USA fo=
r cars. But somehow its allowed for tools.
> >=20
>=20
> If they were the only tool supplier, I believe things would be=20
> different. Festool does not have a monopoly (except on Festool tools),=
=20
> as there are plenty of suitably-equivalent tools.

Not sure what you mean. Ford, GM, Fiat all make cars/trucks that compete w=
ith each other. Add in Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Hundai, Kia from Asi=
a. And add in BMW, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Audi, Volvo from Europe. No car =
dealer has a monopoly. But you can and do negotiate an individual price fr=
om every car dealer for every brand. DeWalt, Makita, Milwaukee, Porter Cab=
le all have different prices for every tool from all the different vendors =
selling these brands. Only Festool has one price no matter who sells it. =
It is the oddball out here.

After rereading your post I think I might grasp what you are saying. Maybe=
. But how can Festool control its retailers and no other company or produc=
t in the USA can exercise the same control? If Festool owned, controlled e=
veryone who sells its products, then yes they can dictate prices. But all =
of the vendors for Festool are privately owned businesses. They are not Fe=
stool owned sellers, distributors. All of these companies sell Festool and=
a thousand other items. And I'm sure they compete on price with everyone =
else on all these other items. I guess SawStop is similar to Festool. I t=
hink, not positive, that SawStop also dictates a price for every saw they s=
ell and that is the price. No competition for SawStop on price. Odd that =
Festool now owns SawStop.

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 12:57:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 3/14/2018 12:18 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:02:42 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/14/2018 10:01 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/14/18 9:24 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/power-tools/hitachi-power-tools-gets-a-new-name_o?utm_source=newsletter&utm_content=Product-Article&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=TOTT_031318A%20%281%29%20A&he=bec4d8d422980f163c46356739c05c6eecb92632
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Interesting!   I've always been intrigued by the Metabo brand.
>>>> Funny that Hitachi buys the company for name recognition, but folks in
>>>> the US (for the most part) have never heard of Metabo but everyone knows
>>>> Hitachi.   Apparently, they want more of the Euro market.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes very interesting. But my thoughts, I have known about Metabo,
>>> probably longer than Festool. I knew it was an upper end brand, German
>>> IIRC. IMHO Hitachi has always been a good value tool but again IMHO did
>>> not ever have unique features, other then their tools looking a lot like
>>> a fancy design tennis shoe. Perhaps, like you said, they want to profit
>>> more from Euro sales of Metabo products. Hopefully the Hitachi built
>>> tools with the Metabo name plate will retain the same quality and
>>> features that the Metabo brand has offered in the past. One might
>>> imagine that Hitachi hopes to boost sales with the Metabo name plate
>>> here in the US.
>>
>> Unless they market more of their tools here, I don't see that
>> happening. I wouldn't buy a Metabo nailer unless there was a wide
>> variety of other tools for sale right next to it.
>
>It seems most major cities, at least in Texas, has a Metabo service
>center. There are multiple on-line sources, including Amazon, that sell
>their products. Looking at their web page they offer, a variety of
>drills, grinders, track saws, vacs, etc.

I've seen nowhere that I can actually touch one. Festools are
"everywhere".

On 3/15/2018 7:32 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 22:34:07 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/14/2018 7:48 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 12:57:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/14/2018 12:18 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:02:42 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/14/2018 10:01 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/14/18 9:24 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>> http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/power-tools/hitachi-power-tools-gets-a-new-name_o?utm_source=newsletter&utm_content=Product-Article&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=TOTT_031318A%20%281%29%20A&he=bec4d8d422980f163c46356739c05c6eecb92632
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interesting!   I've always been intrigued by the Metabo brand.
>>>>>>> Funny that Hitachi buys the company for name recognition, but folks in
>>>>>>> the US (for the most part) have never heard of Metabo but everyone knows
>>>>>>> Hitachi.   Apparently, they want more of the Euro market.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes very interesting. But my thoughts, I have known about Metabo,
>>>>>> probably longer than Festool. I knew it was an upper end brand, German
>>>>>> IIRC. IMHO Hitachi has always been a good value tool but again IMHO did
>>>>>> not ever have unique features, other then their tools looking a lot like
>>>>>> a fancy design tennis shoe. Perhaps, like you said, they want to profit
>>>>>> more from Euro sales of Metabo products. Hopefully the Hitachi built
>>>>>> tools with the Metabo name plate will retain the same quality and
>>>>>> features that the Metabo brand has offered in the past. One might
>>>>>> imagine that Hitachi hopes to boost sales with the Metabo name plate
>>>>>> here in the US.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unless they market more of their tools here, I don't see that
>>>>> happening. I wouldn't buy a Metabo nailer unless there was a wide
>>>>> variety of other tools for sale right next to it.
>>>>
>>>> It seems most major cities, at least in Texas, has a Metabo service
>>>> center. There are multiple on-line sources, including Amazon, that sell
>>>> their products. Looking at their web page they offer, a variety of
>>>> drills, grinders, track saws, vacs, etc.
>>>
>>> I've seen nowhere that I can actually touch one. Festools are
>>> "everywhere".
>>>
>>
>> No, That will be the rub, they may not be available to touch until the
>> Hitachi tools have the new name plate. ;~) I remember when Festool was
>> pretty much the same, about 11~12 years ago.
>
> We'll see. When Metabo has their tractor-trailer at Highland and
> gives away batteries, I may show up and try out their tools. ;-)
>

Yeah!

On 3/15/2018 7:37 PM, [email protected] wrote:

>
> They've run sales every once in a while, too. I've bought a few tools
> on sale. Remember the Pro-5 sale? ;-)
>

No, what was that?

I will say that when a new tool came out there would be an introductory
discount. I took advantage of that with the Domino. I'm not sure if
they still do this or not.

Markem wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 20:16:45 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 23:51:44 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 10:39:37 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Just imagine if GM or Ford or Fiat told every car dealer selling their brand that they will only sell the cars/trucks for the price on the sticker. No dickering, no bargaining with customers. If you do then your car dealer lot will be closed before the sun sets and every car will be taken back and you will be sued in court. I'm guessing this is illegal in the USA for cars. But somehow its allowed for tools.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If they were the only tool supplier, I believe things would be
>>>> different. Festool does not have a monopoly (except on Festool tools),
>>>> as there are plenty of suitably-equivalent tools.
>>>
>>> Not sure what you mean. Ford, GM, Fiat all make cars/trucks that compete with each other. Add in Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Hundai, Kia from Asia. And add in BMW, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Audi, Volvo from Europe. No car dealer has a monopoly. But you can and do negotiate an individual price from every car dealer for every brand. DeWalt, Makita, Milwaukee, Porter Cable all have different prices for every tool from all the different vendors selling these brands. Only Festool has one price no matter who sells it. It is the oddball out here.
>>
>> Remember Saturn? They tried the one price fits all. There's nothing
>> stopping Ford from doing it, except bankruptcy.
>>
>> The reason Festool controls price is that it entices their retailers
>> to sell by service, rather than price. It's why I buy from Highland
>> rather than Amazon (or even Woodcraft). Highland does a better job of
>> stocking and selling. OTOH, if I could save a Franklin, I'd likely
>> buy from Amazon, or even <gack> eBay.
>>
>>> After rereading your post I think I might grasp what you are saying. Maybe. But how can Festool control its retailers and no other company or product in the USA can exercise the same control? If Festool owned, controlled everyone who sells its products, then yes they can dictate prices. But all of the vendors for Festool are privately owned businesses. They are not Festool owned sellers, distributors. All of these companies sell Festool and a thousand other items. And I'm sure they compete on price with everyone else on all these other items. I guess SawStop is similar to Festool. I think, not positive, that SawStop also dictates a price for every saw they sell and that is the price. No competition for SawStop on price. Odd that Festool now owns SawStop.
>>
>> Others don't *choose* to control their retailers. Festool certainly
>> isn't unique, either.
>
> Having a set retail price also offers the retailer a set margin.

That would make more sense to me if the product was sold online only.
Certainly the costs to be retailer in CA differ from those in OH, and
the former could probably deal with the higher margins better. Think of
the cost of the tool as a percentage of the price of a typical house in
an area.

Leon wrote:
> On 3/16/2018 10:49 PM, Bill wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> Wah!  I can't afford Festool!  Good grief, they're not comparable at
>>> all.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I bought myself a belt/disk sander for Christmas on sale for $80.
>> That's my idea of fun.  : )  If it turns out I really use it, I can
>> always upgrade it.
>
>
> And that is kind of an expensive sander.  If you really use it?  Why buy
> it if you do not have a use for it?


Come spring, when I unpack it I will learn better what it can, or
perhaps cannot, do. I hope my 6" disk sander can do some of the things
that you use your 12" disk sander for. If the belt works on metal, that
will be nice. Along with the tool will come the learning...try to buy
"learning" anywhere these days for $80! ; )


>
> Unfortunately almost all of us have bought a neat tool, because it was
> cool, and then never use it.

My toolbox has paid for itself many times over and continues to do so.
Every once in while I buy it "gifts". : )

Bill


>
> ;~)  I have one of those belt/disk sanders too, it was given to me.
> Because I mostly build furniture it is way too small to be useful.  I do
> have a 12" disk sander that is great for smoothing convex curves,
> rounding corners, and shortening Domino tenons to name a few.  Oh and
> also putting the round profile on the drawer pulls that I make.

On 3/14/2018 10:01 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/14/18 9:24 AM, Leon wrote:
>> http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/power-tools/hitachi-power-tools-gets-a-new-name_o?utm_source=newsletter&utm_content=Product-Article&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=TOTT_031318A%20%281%29%20A&he=bec4d8d422980f163c46356739c05c6eecb92632
>>
>>
>>
>
> Interesting!   I've always been intrigued by the Metabo brand.
> Funny that Hitachi buys the company for name recognition, but folks in
> the US (for the most part) have never heard of Metabo but everyone knows
> Hitachi.   Apparently, they want more of the Euro market.
>
>

Yes very interesting. But my thoughts, I have known about Metabo,
probably longer than Festool. I knew it was an upper end brand, German
IIRC. IMHO Hitachi has always been a good value tool but again IMHO did
not ever have unique features, other then their tools looking a lot like
a fancy design tennis shoe. Perhaps, like you said, they want to profit
more from Euro sales of Metabo products. Hopefully the Hitachi built
tools with the Metabo name plate will retain the same quality and
features that the Metabo brand has offered in the past. One might
imagine that Hitachi hopes to boost sales with the Metabo name plate
here in the US.

On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 23:51:44 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 10:39:37 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> > Just imagine if GM or Ford or Fiat told every car dealer selling their brand that they will only sell the cars/trucks for the price on the sticker. No dickering, no bargaining with customers. If you do then your car dealer lot will be closed before the sun sets and every car will be taken back and you will be sued in court. I'm guessing this is illegal in the USA for cars. But somehow its allowed for tools.
>> >
>>
>> If they were the only tool supplier, I believe things would be
>> different. Festool does not have a monopoly (except on Festool tools),
>> as there are plenty of suitably-equivalent tools.
>
>Not sure what you mean. Ford, GM, Fiat all make cars/trucks that compete with each other. Add in Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Hundai, Kia from Asia. And add in BMW, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Audi, Volvo from Europe. No car dealer has a monopoly. But you can and do negotiate an individual price from every car dealer for every brand. DeWalt, Makita, Milwaukee, Porter Cable all have different prices for every tool from all the different vendors selling these brands. Only Festool has one price no matter who sells it. It is the oddball out here.

Remember Saturn? They tried the one price fits all. There's nothing
stopping Ford from doing it, except bankruptcy.

The reason Festool controls price is that it entices their retailers
to sell by service, rather than price. It's why I buy from Highland
rather than Amazon (or even Woodcraft). Highland does a better job of
stocking and selling. OTOH, if I could save a Franklin, I'd likely
buy from Amazon, or even <gack> eBay.

>After rereading your post I think I might grasp what you are saying. Maybe. But how can Festool control its retailers and no other company or product in the USA can exercise the same control? If Festool owned, controlled everyone who sells its products, then yes they can dictate prices. But all of the vendors for Festool are privately owned businesses. They are not Festool owned sellers, distributors. All of these companies sell Festool and a thousand other items. And I'm sure they compete on price with everyone else on all these other items. I guess SawStop is similar to Festool. I think, not positive, that SawStop also dictates a price for every saw they sell and that is the price. No competition for SawStop on price. Odd that Festool now owns SawStop.

Others don't *choose* to control their retailers. Festool certainly
isn't unique, either.

So what name will the Magic Wand be, it is a tool you know?

On 3/14/18 9:24 AM, Leon wrote:
> http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/power-tools/hitachi-power-tools-gets-a-new-name_o?utm_source=newsletter&utm_content=Product-Article&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=TOTT_031318A%20%281%29%20A&he=bec4d8d422980f163c46356739c05c6eecb92632
>
>

Interesting! I've always been intrigued by the Metabo brand.
Funny that Hitachi buys the company for name recognition, but folks in
the US (for the most part) have never heard of Metabo but everyone knows
Hitachi. Apparently, they want more of the Euro market.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 10:19:56 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 3/15/2018 7:37 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>
>> They've run sales every once in a while, too. I've bought a few tools
>> on sale. Remember the Pro-5 sale? ;-)
>>
>
>No, what was that?

<http://toolguyd.com/festool-pro-5-ltd-sander-deal/>

>I will say that when a new tool came out there would be an introductory
>discount. I took advantage of that with the Domino. I'm not sure if
>they still do this or not.

I bought my CT48 on a 20% (IIRC) sale, without buying a tool. At
least two of my other tools were on sale. They used to run a sale
once a year, or so.

On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 23:04:24 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 21:09:27 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Markem wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 20:16:45 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 23:51:44 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 10:39:37 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just imagine if GM or Ford or Fiat told every car dealer selling their brand that they will only sell the cars/trucks for the price on the sticker. No dickering, no bargaining with customers. If you do then your car dealer lot will be closed before the sun sets and every car will be taken back and you will be sued in court. I'm guessing this is illegal in the USA for cars. But somehow its allowed for tools.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If they were the only tool supplier, I believe things would be
>>>>>>> different. Festool does not have a monopoly (except on Festool tools),
>>>>>>> as there are plenty of suitably-equivalent tools.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not sure what you mean. Ford, GM, Fiat all make cars/trucks that compete with each other. Add in Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Hundai, Kia from Asia. And add in BMW, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Audi, Volvo from Europe. No car dealer has a monopoly. But you can and do negotiate an individual price from every car dealer for every brand. DeWalt, Makita, Milwaukee, Porter Cable all have different prices for every tool from all the different vendors selling these brands. Only Festool has one price no matter who sells it. It is the oddball out here.
>>>>>
>>>>> Remember Saturn? They tried the one price fits all. There's nothing
>>>>> stopping Ford from doing it, except bankruptcy.
>>>>>
>>>>> The reason Festool controls price is that it entices their retailers
>>>>> to sell by service, rather than price. It's why I buy from Highland
>>>>> rather than Amazon (or even Woodcraft). Highland does a better job of
>>>>> stocking and selling. OTOH, if I could save a Franklin, I'd likely
>>>>> buy from Amazon, or even <gack> eBay.
>>>>>
>>>>>> After rereading your post I think I might grasp what you are saying. Maybe. But how can Festool control its retailers and no other company or product in the USA can exercise the same control? If Festool owned, controlled everyone who sells its products, then yes they can dictate prices. But all of the vendors for Festool are privately owned businesses. They are not Festool owned sellers, distributors. All of these companies sell Festool and a thousand other items. And I'm sure they compete on price with everyone else on all these other items. I guess SawStop is similar to Festool. I think, not positive, that SawStop also dictates a price for every saw they sell and that is the price. No competition for SawStop on price. Odd that Festool now owns SawStop.
>>>>>
>>>>> Others don't *choose* to control their retailers. Festool certainly
>>>>> isn't unique, either.
>>>>
>>>> Having a set retail price also offers the retailer a set margin.
>>>
>>> That would make more sense to me if the product was sold online only.
>>> Certainly the costs to be retailer in CA differ from those in OH, and
>>> the former could probably deal with the higher margins better. Think of
>>> the cost of the tool as a percentage of the price of a typical house in
>>> an area.
>>
>> OTOH, where housing prices are high, wages tend to also be high. High
>> wages allow high-priced toys so they may sell more.
>>
>
>That's exactly the point I was making. Maybe it would make sense to
>retail some for less in OH where the cost of conducting business isn't
>as high... That's sort of the equilibrium for an unregulated market, I
>think.

My point was that there may be a comparable profit between the two.
The retailer in the not-so-expensive area can't sell as many units but
he doesn't have to. The opposite is also likely. However, there
isn't a lot of incentive to sell (buy, really) in the other's
territory.

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:02:42 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 3/14/2018 10:01 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 3/14/18 9:24 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/power-tools/hitachi-power-tools-gets-a-new-name_o?utm_source=newsletter&utm_content=Product-Article&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=TOTT_031318A%20%281%29%20A&he=bec4d8d422980f163c46356739c05c6eecb92632
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Interesting!   I've always been intrigued by the Metabo brand.
>> Funny that Hitachi buys the company for name recognition, but folks in
>> the US (for the most part) have never heard of Metabo but everyone knows
>> Hitachi.   Apparently, they want more of the Euro market.
>>
>>
>
>Yes very interesting. But my thoughts, I have known about Metabo,
>probably longer than Festool. I knew it was an upper end brand, German
>IIRC. IMHO Hitachi has always been a good value tool but again IMHO did
>not ever have unique features, other then their tools looking a lot like
>a fancy design tennis shoe. Perhaps, like you said, they want to profit
>more from Euro sales of Metabo products. Hopefully the Hitachi built
>tools with the Metabo name plate will retain the same quality and
>features that the Metabo brand has offered in the past. One might
>imagine that Hitachi hopes to boost sales with the Metabo name plate
>here in the US.

Unless they market more of their tools here, I don't see that
happening. I wouldn't buy a Metabo nailer unless there was a wide
variety of other tools for sale right next to it.

My Hitachi framing nailer does resemble a tennierunner. ;-)

On 3/14/2018 7:48 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 12:57:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/14/2018 12:18 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:02:42 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/14/2018 10:01 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/14/18 9:24 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>> http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/power-tools/hitachi-power-tools-gets-a-new-name_o?utm_source=newsletter&utm_content=Product-Article&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=TOTT_031318A%20%281%29%20A&he=bec4d8d422980f163c46356739c05c6eecb92632
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting!   I've always been intrigued by the Metabo brand.
>>>>> Funny that Hitachi buys the company for name recognition, but folks in
>>>>> the US (for the most part) have never heard of Metabo but everyone knows
>>>>> Hitachi.   Apparently, they want more of the Euro market.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes very interesting. But my thoughts, I have known about Metabo,
>>>> probably longer than Festool. I knew it was an upper end brand, German
>>>> IIRC. IMHO Hitachi has always been a good value tool but again IMHO did
>>>> not ever have unique features, other then their tools looking a lot like
>>>> a fancy design tennis shoe. Perhaps, like you said, they want to profit
>>>> more from Euro sales of Metabo products. Hopefully the Hitachi built
>>>> tools with the Metabo name plate will retain the same quality and
>>>> features that the Metabo brand has offered in the past. One might
>>>> imagine that Hitachi hopes to boost sales with the Metabo name plate
>>>> here in the US.
>>>
>>> Unless they market more of their tools here, I don't see that
>>> happening. I wouldn't buy a Metabo nailer unless there was a wide
>>> variety of other tools for sale right next to it.
>>
>> It seems most major cities, at least in Texas, has a Metabo service
>> center. There are multiple on-line sources, including Amazon, that sell
>> their products. Looking at their web page they offer, a variety of
>> drills, grinders, track saws, vacs, etc.
>
> I've seen nowhere that I can actually touch one. Festools are
> "everywhere".
>

No, That will be the rub, they may not be available to touch until the
Hitachi tools have the new name plate. ;~) I remember when Festool was
pretty much the same, about 11~12 years ago.

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 22:34:07 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 3/14/2018 7:48 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 12:57:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/14/2018 12:18 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:02:42 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/14/2018 10:01 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/14/18 9:24 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>> http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/power-tools/hitachi-power-tools-gets-a-new-name_o?utm_source=newsletter&utm_content=Product-Article&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=TOTT_031318A%20%281%29%20A&he=bec4d8d422980f163c46356739c05c6eecb92632
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interesting!   I've always been intrigued by the Metabo brand.
>>>>>> Funny that Hitachi buys the company for name recognition, but folks in
>>>>>> the US (for the most part) have never heard of Metabo but everyone knows
>>>>>> Hitachi.   Apparently, they want more of the Euro market.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes very interesting. But my thoughts, I have known about Metabo,
>>>>> probably longer than Festool. I knew it was an upper end brand, German
>>>>> IIRC. IMHO Hitachi has always been a good value tool but again IMHO did
>>>>> not ever have unique features, other then their tools looking a lot like
>>>>> a fancy design tennis shoe. Perhaps, like you said, they want to profit
>>>>> more from Euro sales of Metabo products. Hopefully the Hitachi built
>>>>> tools with the Metabo name plate will retain the same quality and
>>>>> features that the Metabo brand has offered in the past. One might
>>>>> imagine that Hitachi hopes to boost sales with the Metabo name plate
>>>>> here in the US.
>>>>
>>>> Unless they market more of their tools here, I don't see that
>>>> happening. I wouldn't buy a Metabo nailer unless there was a wide
>>>> variety of other tools for sale right next to it.
>>>
>>> It seems most major cities, at least in Texas, has a Metabo service
>>> center. There are multiple on-line sources, including Amazon, that sell
>>> their products. Looking at their web page they offer, a variety of
>>> drills, grinders, track saws, vacs, etc.
>>
>> I've seen nowhere that I can actually touch one. Festools are
>> "everywhere".
>>
>
>No, That will be the rub, they may not be available to touch until the
>Hitachi tools have the new name plate. ;~) I remember when Festool was
>pretty much the same, about 11~12 years ago.

We'll see. When Metabo has their tractor-trailer at Highland and
gives away batteries, I may show up and try out their tools. ;-)

On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 10:41:31 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 3/16/2018 2:22 AM, Bill wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 10:39:37 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Just imagine if GM or Ford or Fiat told every car dealer selling
>>>>> their brand that they will only sell the cars/trucks for the price
>>>>> on the sticker.  No dickering, no bargaining with customers.  If you
>>>>> do then your car dealer lot will be closed before the sun sets and
>>>>> every car will be taken back and you will be sued in court.  I'm
>>>>> guessing this is illegal in the USA for cars.  But somehow its
>>>>> allowed for tools.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If they were the only tool supplier, I believe things would be
>>>> different.  Festool does not have a monopoly (except on Festool tools),
>>>> as there are plenty of suitably-equivalent tools.
>>>
>>> Not sure what you mean.  Ford, GM, Fiat all make cars/trucks that
>>> compete with each other.  Add in Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru,
>>> Hundai, Kia from Asia.  And add in BMW, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Audi,
>>> Volvo from Europe.  No car dealer has a monopoly.  But you can and do
>>> negotiate an individual price from every car dealer for every brand.
>>> DeWalt, Makita, Milwaukee, Porter Cable all have different prices for
>>> every tool from all the different vendors selling these brands.  Only
>>> Festool has one price no matter who sells it.  It is the oddball out
>>> here.
>>>
>>> After rereading your post I think I might grasp what you are saying.
>>> Maybe.  But how can Festool control its retailers and no other company
>>> or product in the USA can exercise the same control?  If Festool
>>> owned, controlled everyone who sells its products, then yes they can
>>> dictate prices.  But all of the vendors for Festool are privately
>>> owned businesses.
>>
>> Yes, but evidently, if you wish to be a Festool dealer you have to
>> follow Festool's rules. I am not a lawyer, so I don't know anything
>> about the legality of fixing a uniform price.  Below you say that
>> Festool now owns SawStop.  I didn't realize that. It makes perfect sense
>> though to me, based upon the price-point of the products. Marketing will
>> be easier--"economies of scale", and all that...
>
>The inventor/developer of the SawStop was a lawyer. I think the
>monopoly thing is if the dealers agree to fix pricing and that is where
>there problem comes in. They also probably sign a contract with the
>manufacturer to sell at suggested retail or loose their license to sell
>their products.

Correct. Both parties agree to the contract. What's the problem?