OT: Plumbing with Pex!

On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 10:31:47 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 2/16/12 9:16 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
>> On 2/16/2012 5:04 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Now, I'm sure there will be a few of you geezers who will tell me all
>>>> about the dangers of this newfangled technology, like whoever it was
>>>> who said they preferred board lumber sub-floors over plywood. I'm
>>>> still LMAO at that. Whatever. Go chase the kids of your lawn.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm one of those die hards that warms slowly to new technologies
>>> sometimes -
>>> not always. I stayed away from Sharkbites for the longest time, and then
>>> while plumbing in a new bathroom in the basement, I finally broke down
>>> and
>>> used one. I was very familiar with how they worked, and I had sold a
>>> million of them to people before ever using one myself. Admitedly - it
>>> was
>>> slick. Cut the copper, insert the Sharkbite, and move on. The only
>>> thing I
>>> do not like is that it does not make a rigid assembly when done. The
>>> joint
>>> is leak proof, but the entire run of copper (in my case) is floppy at the
>>> joint, and it's not always so easy to install a clamp nearby to remedy
>>> that.
>>> If I had to plumb an entire house from scratch now, or install a major
>>> plumbing remodel, I'd probably go with PEX. That said - I hate seeing PEX
>>> just looped into place. Plumbing is supposed to have nice orderly
>>> lines...
>>>
>>
>> You also lose any electrical bonding there might have been there. Keep
>> that in mind. You may want to put and appropriate jumper across that
>> connection.
>>
>
>AFAIK, using the water pipe to ground the electric has been done away
>with long ago, so it's probably good practice to replacing it with a
>grounding rod, anyway.

As far as the grounding the service that is pretty much true as it
isn't always metal. The interior piping should have a jumper if you
don't have a mechanical joint. There are some exceptions for isolated
sections of pipe. But that bond is needed to protect your ass when
your touching the metal.

Mike M

On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 15:02:53 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>
>> I used PEX on my parent's farmhouse. Laying on the dirt in the two
>> foot tall crawl space and stringing gray plastic pipe was a lot easier
>> and quicker than trying to solder copper joints. Doesn't burst when
>> it freezes. Mostly I use CPVC and glue when adding in plumbing now.
>> Its easy to work with too. But I do some copper soldering when
>> required. I get some satisfaction out if it. Using the torch and
>> melting the solder and actually having the dang pipe not leak. I hate
>> plumbing. Love electrical, hate plumbing.
>>
>
>Ah... my son - you are speaking my language. I hate plumbing with a
>passion, but I love electrical. Plumbing is of the devil!

Having dug a few holes for my Uncle the plumber, and needing to dig
one here to fix the cast iron feeding the septic tank, I will say amen
to the devil once more.

On Feb 23, 9:53=A0pm, chaniarts <[email protected]> wrote:

> once my wife and i drove up and pulled out at the overlook there. the
> parking lot was filled with busloads of japanese tourists. we pulled up
> in a pair of corvettes, and watched the entire crowd slew cameras in
> unison, right before they stampeded over to have their pictures taken
> alongside our cars.
>
> we had to wait about 15 minutes before the crowd thinned enough to drive
> off safely.

Show-off :-D

It's a beautiful place.

Steve Barker wrote:
> On 2/16/2012 5:04 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:

>> I'm one of those die hards that warms slowly to new technologies
>> sometimes - not always. I stayed away from Sharkbites for the
>> longest time, and then while plumbing in a new bathroom in the
>> basement, I finally broke down and used one. I was very familiar
>> with how they worked, and I had sold a million of them to people
>> before ever using one myself. Admitedly - it was slick. Cut the
>> copper, insert the Sharkbite, and move on. The only thing I do not
>> like is that it does not make a rigid assembly when done. The joint
>> is leak proof, but the entire run of copper (in my case) is floppy
>> at the joint, and it's not always so easy to install a clamp nearby
>> to remedy that. If I had to plumb an entire house from scratch now,
>> or install a major plumbing remodel, I'd probably go with PEX. That
>> said - I hate seeing PEX just looped into place. Plumbing is
>> supposed to have nice orderly lines...
>
> You also lose any electrical bonding there might have been there. Keep
> that in mind. You may want to put and appropriate jumper across
> that connection.

Nope - I don't rely on my water pipes for earth ground. Sunk 2 ground rods
in for that purpose. Either way - a water pipe ground would occur at the
entrance to the house, and this particular modification was well downstream
of that.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

[email protected] wrote:

> I used PEX on my parent's farmhouse. Laying on the dirt in the two
> foot tall crawl space and stringing gray plastic pipe was a lot easier
> and quicker than trying to solder copper joints. Doesn't burst when
> it freezes. Mostly I use CPVC and glue when adding in plumbing now.
> Its easy to work with too. But I do some copper soldering when
> required. I get some satisfaction out if it. Using the torch and
> melting the solder and actually having the dang pipe not leak. I hate
> plumbing. Love electrical, hate plumbing.
>

Ah... my son - you are speaking my language. I hate plumbing with a
passion, but I love electrical. Plumbing is of the devil!

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Feb 19, 1:40=A0am, "m II" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I have never trusted the push fit connectors, Father in law redid an
> old house using them and when the house was left to freeze over the
> winter with antifreeze in the pipe

Just out of interest, why did he fill the pipes with anti-freeze
rather than just draining down the system and leaving it empty?

On 2/20/2012 8:39 AM, Dave In Texas wrote:
> "m II" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> Lines don't always drain and anti-freeze is the only way to insure they
> don't freeze in low spots. This is the same for lawn watering systems.
>
>
>
> One advantage I may have missed someone mention is how much more quickly
> the hot water arrives at the intended faucet.
> I had our small, rural San Antonio-area home-away-from home re-plumbed
> with PEX last year and the time from water heater to kitchen is about a
> fourth of the minute plus it used to take to travel the 35 or 40 feet.
> And, I do mean HOT.

That is directly attributable to the inexpensive ease with which you can
use PEX to effect a "manifold system" with "home run" plumbing, either
at the source, or in areas or zones.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Feb 22, 1:05=A0pm, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

> ... go to a RV supply store ...

Ah! RVs! I once drove to the Hoover Dam and saw the most amazing
collection of RVs, fifth wheels and caravans I've ever seen - some of
them were bigger than my house, I swear. Being on the shore of Lake
Mead, with endless blue skies, nice & warm... man, you couldn't blame
anyone for never moving from there!

On Feb 16, 2:02=A0am, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:

> I'm using this PEX plastic pipe and some of the
> SharkBite/GatorBite fittings and valves and may I just say, holy freakin
> WOW!!! =A0Is this stuff the $h!t or what? =A0Talk about fast and easy.


Yeah, it is great stuff indeed! I was surprised when I pulled up a few
floorboards to move a radiator last time I did some plumbing and found
that the water mains supply to the loft was plastic pipe - don't know
what brand it was as this must have been done about 40 years ago. The
central heating was still copper though.

This winter, the garden tap supply burst on the only section of copper
pipe there was (about 6 inches from the water company's plastic supply
pipe to the tap itself). Needless to say, this'll be replaced with PEX
when it warms up a bit!

I have to admit though, there is a lovely glow of satisfaction to be
had from a well-done bit of copper plumbing! And my grandad still
doesn't believe anyone has the right to call themselves a plumber
unless they know how to properly wipe a lead pipe joint!

"Mike Marlow" wrote
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>> I used PEX on my parent's farmhouse. Laying on the dirt in the two
>> foot tall crawl space and stringing gray plastic pipe was a lot easier
>> and quicker than trying to solder copper joints. Doesn't burst when
>> it freezes. Mostly I use CPVC and glue when adding in plumbing now.
>> Its easy to work with too. But I do some copper soldering when
>> required. I get some satisfaction out if it. Using the torch and
>> melting the solder and actually having the dang pipe not leak. I hate
>> plumbing. Love electrical, hate plumbing.
>>
>
> Ah... my son - you are speaking my language. I hate plumbing with a
> passion, but I love electrical. Plumbing is of the devil!
>
I know of what you speak. I can fix and build a lot of things. Plumbing
always gives me problems. The hardest part of plumbing is fitting my
considerable bulk under the sink to do some kind of repair. That is a job
where being small would be an asset.

I had a friend who was a bricklayer in a steel mill. They had to constantly
renew the brick work in the furnaces. This crew were all big, strong guys,
except him. He was quite small. And they took good care of him. He never
had to lift anything heavy. But every now and then, they had to do some
work in a small, cramped place. They would send him in. He fit. He was
almost like everybody's kid brother.

I was never very good at fitting into small places. I am not suited for it,
either physically or personality wise.

On 02/21/2012 05:43 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 2/20/2012 4:56 PM, David Paste wrote:
>> On Feb 20, 5:06 pm, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>>> On 2/20/2012 3:41 AM, David Paste wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Feb 19, 4:57 pm, -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I was thinking the same thing. You'd have to drain the antifreeze,
>>>>> anyway, right?
>>>
>>>> ...and then rinse! Dunno about you, but my liver and kidneys tend to
>>>> kick up a stink when I drink antifreeze! :-)
>>>
>>> Engine coolant, not antifreeze is what you don't want to drink.
>>
>> Same thing here. Ethylene Glycol for clarity!
>
> But antifreeze for/in a drinking water supply is not Ethylene Glycol,
> engine coolant.

Correct, the drinking water stuff contains Propylene Glycol.


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 02/21/2012 04:16 PM, David Paste wrote:
> On Feb 21, 12:43 pm, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> But antifreeze for/in a drinking water supply is not Ethylene Glycol,
>> engine coolant.
>
> I am not saying it is, but I have never encountered anti-freeze for
> potable water supply before!

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_glycol>


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 02/23/2012 02:31 PM, David Paste wrote:
> On Feb 22, 1:05 pm, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> ... go to a RV supply store ...
>
> Ah! RVs! I once drove to the Hoover Dam and saw the most amazing
> collection of RVs, fifth wheels and caravans I've ever seen - some of
> them were bigger than my house, I swear. Being on the shore of Lake
> Mead, with endless blue skies, nice& warm... man, you couldn't blame
> anyone for never moving from there!

You ought to see Quartzite, AZ in the winter. Thousands and thousands
of RVers boondocking.


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 02/23/2012 10:57 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Jack wrote:
>> On 2/22/2012 2:34 PM, Pat Barber wrote:
>>> On 2/21/2012 7:25 AM, Jack wrote:
>>> Trying to squeeze 260 lbs of death, fear and destruction
>>> into a one door hole is a bear.
>>>
>>> Maybe we should cut back on the honey buns and the
>>> Krispy Kreme donuts.
>>
>> That would get me down to 220, my fighting weight. Not enough to make
>> squeezing into a one door hole not a bear. I don't eat that crap
>> [much] anyway. At 200 I look like a scarecrow, 220, awesome, 260 old
>> and cuddly. Old's hard to change, so cuddly works:-)
>
> Oh Bullshit! Old is impossible to change and it just looks terrible!
> DAMHIKT! Cuddly? - well, I'm still trying to convince the wife on this
> point...
>

I just tell SWMBO that I'm 230 pounds of quivering passion. She does a
really good eye roll on that one.


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 02/24/2012 05:33 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 2/23/2012 4:30 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
>> On 02/23/2012 10:57 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Jack wrote:
>>>> On 2/22/2012 2:34 PM, Pat Barber wrote:
>>>>> On 2/21/2012 7:25 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>>> Trying to squeeze 260 lbs of death, fear and destruction
>>>>> into a one door hole is a bear.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe we should cut back on the honey buns and the
>>>>> Krispy Kreme donuts.
>>>>
>>>> That would get me down to 220, my fighting weight. Not enough to make
>>>> squeezing into a one door hole not a bear. I don't eat that crap
>>>> [much] anyway. At 200 I look like a scarecrow, 220, awesome, 260 old
>>>> and cuddly. Old's hard to change, so cuddly works:-)
>>>
>>> Oh Bullshit! Old is impossible to change and it just looks terrible!
>>> DAMHIKT! Cuddly? - well, I'm still trying to convince the wife on this
>>> point...
>>>
>>
>> I just tell SWMBO that I'm 230 pounds of quivering passion. She does a
>> really good eye roll on that one.
>>
>
>
> 5~6 years ago I topped out at 223 lbs, 6' tall. Last doctors visit in
> July, 181 lbs.
>
> Oh, and I can run again. ;~)
>

I'm 6'2" - 6'3" fresh from the chiropractor. Down from 260 to 230, but
have (temporarily) hit the wall.



--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

"Larry Jaques" wrote
>
> Congrats, Leon. That's even more motivation for me to lose my extra
> weight. I was 182-190 in high school as a swimmer and am 230 now.
> How'd you lose yours?
>
Doncha know Larry?? FESTOOL!!

That little vacuum of theirs is really versatile.

On 2/22/2012 4:05 AM, David Paste wrote:
> On Feb 22, 3:57 am, Steve Barker<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> where in the world do you live?
>
>
> North-west England. Not known for it's extreme weather!


ahhh. i c.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 21:24:06 -0600, Markem <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 15:02:53 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> I used PEX on my parent's farmhouse. Laying on the dirt in the two
>>> foot tall crawl space and stringing gray plastic pipe was a lot easier
>>> and quicker than trying to solder copper joints. Doesn't burst when
>>> it freezes. Mostly I use CPVC and glue when adding in plumbing now.
>>> Its easy to work with too. But I do some copper soldering when
>>> required. I get some satisfaction out if it. Using the torch and
>>> melting the solder and actually having the dang pipe not leak. I hate
>>> plumbing. Love electrical, hate plumbing.
>>>
>>
>>Ah... my son - you are speaking my language. I hate plumbing with a
>>passion, but I love electrical. Plumbing is of the devil!
>
>Having dug a few holes for my Uncle the plumber, and needing to dig
>one here to fix the cast iron feeding the septic tank, I will say amen
>to the devil once more.

_That_ is when you hire the teen down the road.

--
The ultimate result of shielding men from folly
is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer

On Feb 18, 3:17=A0am, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2/17/12 3:56 PM, m II wrote:
>
> > The pinch rings for the Watts PEX system sold at HD here are top of the
> > line. Tool is $30, the crimped joints will turn around many turns insid=
e
> > the joint without a drip, can be released easily with a needle nose
> > pliers and sharp screwdriver, and the pinch can be done in a tight
> > corner without the tool needing to be around the ring. Cheap and
> > reliable in the 5 years I have been using them. Never had a leak yet in
> > a house full of them.
>
> FWIW, I'm using the solid copper rings, not the steel clamps.


Do you have the push-fit systems with the PEX stuff over there?

http://www.speedfit.co.uk/Home/Technical-Support.aspx

Have a look at a video or two there.

Larry Jaques wrote:

>
> Oh, great one, Doug. Damnit, from now on, when I see your name, I'll
> think "Jello In Heat!"

Now I have to explain why I'm sitting in the den laughing out loud all by
myself... after I get done laughing. You earn a merit badge for that one
Larry.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Feb 22, 3:57=A0am, Steve Barker <[email protected]> wrote:

> where in the world do you live?


North-west England. Not known for it's extreme weather!

On 2/16/2012 11:10 AM, David Paste wrote:
> On Feb 16, 5:03 pm, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>
>> The houses in my tract (circa 1970) were plumbed from the street
>> using this grey PVC-like pipe. It deteriorated completely within the
>> first 10 years and had to be replaced at _every_ house (fortunately the
>> interiors were galvy).
>
> Just out of interest, do the houses in North America have their water
> supply through metal or polyethylene pipes now?

Both ... metal is still prevalent in many municipalities' _supply_ lines
to the residential cutoff.

CPVC is now very common from the house side of the cutoff in new
construction; with a mix of all three (CPVC, galvanized and copper)
still in common use.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 2/16/2012 10:31 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 2/16/12 9:16 AM, Steve Barker wrote:

>> You also lose any electrical bonding there might have been there. Keep
>> that in mind. You may want to put and appropriate jumper across that
>> connection.
>>
>
> AFAIK, using the water pipe to ground the electric has been done away
> with long ago, so it's probably good practice to replacing it with a
> grounding rod, anyway.

Particularly in "renovations", an inspector will still be very likely
looking for a jumper ... belt and suspenders for old folks and old
installations. :)

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 2/20/2012 4:56 PM, David Paste wrote:
> On Feb 20, 5:06 pm, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>> On 2/20/2012 3:41 AM, David Paste wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 19, 4:57 pm, -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>> I was thinking the same thing. You'd have to drain the antifreeze,
>>>> anyway, right?
>>
>>> ...and then rinse! Dunno about you, but my liver and kidneys tend to
>>> kick up a stink when I drink antifreeze! :-)
>>
>> Engine coolant, not antifreeze is what you don't want to drink.
>
> Same thing here. Ethylene Glycol for clarity!

But antifreeze for/in a drinking water supply is not Ethylene Glycol,
engine coolant.

On 2/20/2012 9:36 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 2/20/2012 8:39 AM, Dave In Texas wrote:
>> "m II" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Lines don't always drain and anti-freeze is the only way to insure they
>> don't freeze in low spots. This is the same for lawn watering systems.
>>
>>
>>
>> One advantage I may have missed someone mention is how much more quickly
>> the hot water arrives at the intended faucet.
>> I had our small, rural San Antonio-area home-away-from home re-plumbed
>> with PEX last year and the time from water heater to kitchen is about a
>> fourth of the minute plus it used to take to travel the 35 or 40 feet.
>> And, I do mean HOT.
>
> That is directly attributable to the inexpensive ease with which you can
> use PEX to effect a "manifold system" with "home run" plumbing, either
> at the source, or in areas or zones.


I suspect that with traditional pipe when everything t's off a central
pipe it probably mixes in the cold water from all of those other pipes.

I would also think a cold metallic pipe would absorb much of the heat
from the water. The pex probably changes temperature quickly.

On 2/20/2012 3:41 AM, David Paste wrote:
> On Feb 19, 4:57 pm, -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I was thinking the same thing. You'd have to drain the antifreeze,
>> anyway, right?
>
>
> ...and then rinse! Dunno about you, but my liver and kidneys tend to
> kick up a stink when I drink antifreeze! :-)

Engine coolant, not antifreeze is what you don't want to drink.

On 2/20/2012 9:29 AM, FrozenNorth wrote:
> On 2/20/12 8:39 AM, m II wrote:
>> Lines don't always drain and anti-freeze is the only way to insure they
>> don't freeze in low spots. This is the same for lawn watering systems.
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------
>> "FrozenNorth" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> Why even put anti freeze in the lines, turn the water off at the main,
>> and just drain the lines, especially easy if there is a basement sink.
>>
> Draining the lines and leaving taps open leaves plenty of room for
> expansion for whatever little water remains.
>

But those lines will still freeze and may prevent you from using the
pluming until it thaws.

On 2/24/2012 7:59 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 06:33:31 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2/23/2012 4:30 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
>>> On 02/23/2012 10:57 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>> Jack wrote:
>>>>> On 2/22/2012 2:34 PM, Pat Barber wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/21/2012 7:25 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>>>> Trying to squeeze 260 lbs of death, fear and destruction
>>>>>> into a one door hole is a bear.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe we should cut back on the honey buns and the
>>>>>> Krispy Kreme donuts.
>>>>>
>>>>> That would get me down to 220, my fighting weight. Not enough to make
>>>>> squeezing into a one door hole not a bear. I don't eat that crap
>>>>> [much] anyway. At 200 I look like a scarecrow, 220, awesome, 260 old
>>>>> and cuddly. Old's hard to change, so cuddly works:-)
>>>>
>>>> Oh Bullshit! Old is impossible to change and it just looks terrible!
>>>> DAMHIKT! Cuddly? - well, I'm still trying to convince the wife on this
>>>> point...
>>>>
>>>
>>> I just tell SWMBO that I'm 230 pounds of quivering passion. She does a
>>> really good eye roll on that one.
>>>
>>
>>
>> 5~6 years ago I topped out at 223 lbs, 6' tall. Last doctors visit in
>> July, 181 lbs.
>>
>> Oh, and I can run again. ;~)
>
> Congrats, Leon. That's even more motivation for me to lose my extra
> weight. I was 182-190 in high school as a swimmer and am 230 now.
> How'd you lose yours?

Eating right, correct portion sizes, most of the time, And lots of brisk
walking, 5 days a week I walk 2 miles at one time, in less than 30 minutes.

My previous visit to the doctors office had me at about 189, I was not
even really trying to loose any more weight and my walking had tapered
off because I was spending 6~8 hours days in the shop with temps
regularly above 95 degrees.

On 2/23/2012 4:30 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
> On 02/23/2012 10:57 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Jack wrote:
>>> On 2/22/2012 2:34 PM, Pat Barber wrote:
>>>> On 2/21/2012 7:25 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>> Trying to squeeze 260 lbs of death, fear and destruction
>>>> into a one door hole is a bear.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe we should cut back on the honey buns and the
>>>> Krispy Kreme donuts.
>>>
>>> That would get me down to 220, my fighting weight. Not enough to make
>>> squeezing into a one door hole not a bear. I don't eat that crap
>>> [much] anyway. At 200 I look like a scarecrow, 220, awesome, 260 old
>>> and cuddly. Old's hard to change, so cuddly works:-)
>>
>> Oh Bullshit! Old is impossible to change and it just looks terrible!
>> DAMHIKT! Cuddly? - well, I'm still trying to convince the wife on this
>> point...
>>
>
> I just tell SWMBO that I'm 230 pounds of quivering passion. She does a
> really good eye roll on that one.
>


5~6 years ago I topped out at 223 lbs, 6' tall. Last doctors visit in
July, 181 lbs.

Oh, and I can run again. ;~)

Just show her your PEX! That should do it for her!

-----------------
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
to change and it just looks terrible!
DAMHIKT! Cuddly? - well, I'm still trying to convince the wife on this
point...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"m II" wrote in message news:[email protected]...

Lines don't always drain and anti-freeze is the only way to insure they
don't freeze in low spots. This is the same for lawn watering systems.



One advantage I may have missed someone mention is how much more quickly
the hot water arrives at the intended faucet.
I had our small, rural San Antonio-area home-away-from home re-plumbed
with PEX last year and the time from water heater to kitchen is about a
fourth of the minute plus it used to take to travel the 35 or 40 feet. And,
I do mean HOT.

Dave in Houston

Lines don't always drain and anti-freeze is the only way to insure they
don't freeze in low spots. This is the same for lawn watering systems.



-------------
"FrozenNorth" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
Why even put anti freeze in the lines, turn the water off at the main,
and just drain the lines, especially easy if there is a basement sink.

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

On 2/21/2012 5:16 PM, David Paste wrote:
> On Feb 21, 12:43 pm, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> But antifreeze for/in a drinking water supply is not Ethylene Glycol,
>> engine coolant.
>
> I am not saying it is, but I have never encountered anti-freeze for
> potable water supply before!

So educate yourself, go to a RV supply store, they will direct you to
the item.

On 2/22/2012 4:05 AM, David Paste wrote:
> On Feb 22, 3:57 am, Steve Barker<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> where in the world do you live?
>
>
> North-west England. Not known for it's extreme weather!

Ohhhhhhh, that's different. ;~)

Although, I am in Texas and the product is easily obtainable.

On 2/20/2012 11:15 AM, FrozenNorth wrote:
> On 2/20/12 12:05 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 2/20/2012 9:29 AM, FrozenNorth wrote:
>>> On 2/20/12 8:39 AM, m II wrote:
>>>> Lines don't always drain and anti-freeze is the only way to insure they
>>>> don't freeze in low spots. This is the same for lawn watering systems.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------------
>>>> "FrozenNorth" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>>>> Why even put anti freeze in the lines, turn the water off at the main,
>>>> and just drain the lines, especially easy if there is a basement sink.
>>>>
>>> Draining the lines and leaving taps open leaves plenty of room for
>>> expansion for whatever little water remains.
>>>
>>
>> But those lines will still freeze and may prevent you from using the
>> pluming until it thaws.
>
> Agreed, but it beats damaged plumbing. :-)
>

That is correct. ;~)

The pinch rings for the Watts PEX system sold at HD here are top of the
line. Tool is $30, the crimped joints will turn around many turns
inside the joint without a drip, can be released easily with a needle
nose pliers and sharp screwdriver, and the pinch can be done in a tight
corner without the tool needing to be around the ring. Cheap and
reliable in the 5 years I have been using them. Never had a leak yet in
a house full of them.

Lead free solder doesn't work and I have had several "professional
joints" done by 40 year veterans leak already. PEX is always welcome
here. Over 4000' of it in my house.


------------
"-MIKE-" wrote in message news:[email protected]...

On 2/15/12 8:45 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 2/15/2012 8:02 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> Remodeling the bathrooms sure is a lot of work just to have an
>> excuse to
>> build a couple custom cabinets, but hey.
>>
>> It's been about 15 years since I built my previous home and had to
>> deal
>> with water supply. I'm using this PEX plastic pipe and some of the
>> SharkBite/GatorBite fittings and valves and may I just say, holy
>> freakin
>> WOW!!! Is this stuff the $h!t or what? Talk about fast and easy.
>>
>> Now, I'm sure there will be a few of you geezers who will tell me
>> all
>> about the dangers of this newfangled technology, like whoever it was
>> who
>> said they preferred board lumber sub-floors over plywood. I'm still
>> LMAO
>> at that. Whatever. Go chase the kids of your lawn.
>>
>> Anyway, just had to shout from the rooftops about how easy plumbing
>> water is compared to days gone by.
>
>
> No kidding, and I'm an old geezer, but not one of those. :)
>
> The ease with which you can fabricate a PEX manifold system to do
> plumbing "home runs", like electricians do with wiring, makes getting
> both hot and cold to all areas of a home a piece o' cake, and much
> cheaper, meaning you can put money elsewhere, where it can be seen by
> the buyer/customer.
>
> Too bad there are still municipalities where you can't use PEX. Like
> the
> area I've built most of the homes in the last ten years. ... it's
> against code here. :(
>
> Still, I use PEX whenever, and wherever, I can.
>

I ran the lines to the guest lav and toilet and couldn't believe how
easy it was to pull (much, much easier than romex wire). I connected up
a T in the line and the stub-outs all using the copper ring crimps and
again, couldn't believe how fast and easy. It felt like I was cheating.

If it was copper or CPVC it would've taken me all day to run it under
this weird dropped ceiling section of my basement. I have no idea how I
would've sweated or glued it, short of tearing the ceiling out.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:jhho4i$qn1$1
@speranza.aioe.org:

> Remodeling the bathrooms sure is a lot of work just to have an excuse
to
> build a couple custom cabinets, but hey.
>
> It's been about 15 years since I built my previous home and had to deal
> with water supply. I'm using this PEX plastic pipe and some of the
> SharkBite/GatorBite fittings and valves and may I just say, holy
freakin
> WOW!!! Is this stuff the $h!t or what? Talk about fast and easy.
>
> Now, I'm sure there will be a few of you geezers who will tell me all
> about the dangers of this newfangled technology, like whoever it was
who
> said they preferred board lumber sub-floors over plywood. I'm still
LMAO
> at that. Whatever. Go chase the kids of your lawn.
>
> Anyway, just had to shout from the rooftops about how easy plumbing
> water is compared to days gone by.

It's probably OK, but I prefer stuff that has been tested over a longer
time span.

I bought some grey plastic plumbing tubing for a non-plumbing application
about 25 years ago. 10 years ago, I wanted to get some more. I did a
search on-line, and all I found was law suits. Not a good sign...

Apparently after about 10 years it got brittle and exploded. It was very
popular in RV & mobile homes, and millions of dollars worth of vehicles &
homes were severely damaged by the stuff.

We just had our bathroom remodeled, and the bulk of the plumbing was done
with copper. The one place they used Pex was to hook a radiator into the
hot water heating system. Getting the fittings just the right spacing
was a pain in the neck, and using Pex gave them a little leeway. I think
we've got about 1 foot total in the house now.

On 2/20/2012 3:41 AM, David Paste wrote:
> On Feb 19, 4:57 pm, -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I was thinking the same thing. You'd have to drain the antifreeze,
>> anyway, right?
>
>
> ...and then rinse! Dunno about you, but my liver and kidneys tend to
> kick up a stink when I drink antifreeze! :-)

the kind you put in plumbing is non-toxic. and you don't have to drain
it. you just flush it through.

duh.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 2/16/2012 5:04 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>
>>
>> Now, I'm sure there will be a few of you geezers who will tell me all
>> about the dangers of this newfangled technology, like whoever it was
>> who said they preferred board lumber sub-floors over plywood. I'm
>> still LMAO at that. Whatever. Go chase the kids of your lawn.
>>
>
> I'm one of those die hards that warms slowly to new technologies sometimes -
> not always. I stayed away from Sharkbites for the longest time, and then
> while plumbing in a new bathroom in the basement, I finally broke down and
> used one. I was very familiar with how they worked, and I had sold a
> million of them to people before ever using one myself. Admitedly - it was
> slick. Cut the copper, insert the Sharkbite, and move on. The only thing I
> do not like is that it does not make a rigid assembly when done. The joint
> is leak proof, but the entire run of copper (in my case) is floppy at the
> joint, and it's not always so easy to install a clamp nearby to remedy that.
> If I had to plumb an entire house from scratch now, or install a major
> plumbing remodel, I'd probably go with PEX. That said - I hate seeing PEX
> just looped into place. Plumbing is supposed to have nice orderly lines...
>

You also lose any electrical bonding there might have been there. Keep
that in mind. You may want to put and appropriate jumper across that
connection.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 2/24/2012 8:08 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
> On 02/24/2012 05:33 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 2/23/2012 4:30 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
>>> On 02/23/2012 10:57 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>> Jack wrote:
>>>>> On 2/22/2012 2:34 PM, Pat Barber wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/21/2012 7:25 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>>>> Trying to squeeze 260 lbs of death, fear and destruction
>>>>>> into a one door hole is a bear.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe we should cut back on the honey buns and the
>>>>>> Krispy Kreme donuts.
>>>>>
>>>>> That would get me down to 220, my fighting weight. Not enough to make
>>>>> squeezing into a one door hole not a bear. I don't eat that crap
>>>>> [much] anyway. At 200 I look like a scarecrow, 220, awesome, 260 old
>>>>> and cuddly. Old's hard to change, so cuddly works:-)
>>>>
>>>> Oh Bullshit! Old is impossible to change and it just looks terrible!
>>>> DAMHIKT! Cuddly? - well, I'm still trying to convince the wife on this
>>>> point...
>>>>
>>>
>>> I just tell SWMBO that I'm 230 pounds of quivering passion. She does a
>>> really good eye roll on that one.
>>>
>>
>>
>> 5~6 years ago I topped out at 223 lbs, 6' tall. Last doctors visit in
>> July, 181 lbs.
>>
>> Oh, and I can run again. ;~)
>>
>
> I'm 6'2" - 6'3" fresh from the chiropractor. Down from 260 to 230, but
> have (temporarily) hit the wall.
>
>
>
The wall is normal as the rest of your body catches up and adjusts.
Just keep up what you were doing, it is a life style change. You will
eventually start loosing again.

Remember too if you are exercising and building muscle you will loose
inches but not necessarily pounds. There is no problem with that.

On Feb 20, 5:06=A0pm, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> On 2/20/2012 3:41 AM, David Paste wrote:
>
> > On Feb 19, 4:57 pm, -MIKE-<[email protected]> =A0wrote:
>
> >> I was thinking the same thing. =A0You'd have to drain the antifreeze,
> >> anyway, right?
>
> > ...and then rinse! Dunno about you, but my liver and kidneys tend to
> > kick up a stink when I drink antifreeze! :-)
>
> Engine coolant, not antifreeze is what you don't want to drink.

Same thing here. Ethylene Glycol for clarity!

I used PEX on my parent's farmhouse. Laying on the dirt in the two
foot tall crawl space and stringing gray plastic pipe was a lot easier
and quicker than trying to solder copper joints. Doesn't burst when
it freezes. Mostly I use CPVC and glue when adding in plumbing now.
Its easy to work with too. But I do some copper soldering when
required. I get some satisfaction out if it. Using the torch and
melting the solder and actually having the dang pipe not leak. I hate
plumbing. Love electrical, hate plumbing.


On Feb 15, 8:02=A0pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> Remodeling the bathrooms sure is a lot of work just to have an excuse to
> build a couple custom cabinets, but hey.
>
> It's been about 15 years since I built my previous home and had to deal
> with water supply. =A0I'm using this PEX plastic pipe and some of the
> SharkBite/GatorBite fittings and valves and may I just say, holy freakin
> WOW!!! =A0Is this stuff the $h!t or what? =A0Talk about fast and easy.
>
> Now, I'm sure there will be a few of you geezers who will tell me all
> about the dangers of this newfangled technology, like whoever it was who
> said they preferred board lumber sub-floors over plywood. =A0I'm still LM=
AO
> at that. =A0Whatever. =A0Go chase the kids of your lawn.
>
> Anyway, just had to shout from the rooftops about how easy plumbing
> water is compared to days gone by.
>
> --
>
> =A0 -MIKE-
>
> =A0 "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
> =A0 =A0 =A0--Elvin Jones =A0(1927-2004)
> =A0 --
> =A0http://mikedrums.com
> =A0 [email protected]
> =A0 ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Jack wrote:
> On 2/22/2012 2:34 PM, Pat Barber wrote:
>> On 2/21/2012 7:25 AM, Jack wrote:
>> Trying to squeeze 260 lbs of death, fear and destruction
>> into a one door hole is a bear.
>>
>> Maybe we should cut back on the honey buns and the
>> Krispy Kreme donuts.
>
> That would get me down to 220, my fighting weight. Not enough to make
> squeezing into a one door hole not a bear. I don't eat that crap
> [much] anyway. At 200 I look like a scarecrow, 220, awesome, 260 old
> and cuddly. Old's hard to change, so cuddly works:-)

Oh Bullshit! Old is impossible to change and it just looks terrible!
DAMHIKT! Cuddly? - well, I'm still trying to convince the wife on this
point...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

-MIKE- wrote:

>
> Now, I'm sure there will be a few of you geezers who will tell me all
> about the dangers of this newfangled technology, like whoever it was
> who said they preferred board lumber sub-floors over plywood. I'm
> still LMAO at that. Whatever. Go chase the kids of your lawn.
>

I'm one of those die hards that warms slowly to new technologies sometimes -
not always. I stayed away from Sharkbites for the longest time, and then
while plumbing in a new bathroom in the basement, I finally broke down and
used one. I was very familiar with how they worked, and I had sold a
million of them to people before ever using one myself. Admitedly - it was
slick. Cut the copper, insert the Sharkbite, and move on. The only thing I
do not like is that it does not make a rigid assembly when done. The joint
is leak proof, but the entire run of copper (in my case) is floppy at the
joint, and it's not always so easy to install a clamp nearby to remedy that.
If I had to plumb an entire house from scratch now, or install a major
plumbing remodel, I'd probably go with PEX. That said - I hate seeing PEX
just looped into place. Plumbing is supposed to have nice orderly lines...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Feb 20, 2:39=A0pm, "Dave In Texas" <[email protected]> wrote:

> =A0 =A0 One advantage I may have missed someone mention is how much more =
quickly
> the hot water arrives at the intended faucet.
> =A0 =A0 I had our small, rural San Antonio-area home-away-from home re-pl=
umbed
> with PEX last year and the time from water heater to kitchen is about a
> fourth of the minute plus it used to take to travel the 35 or 40 feet. =
=A0And,
> I do mean HOT.
>
> Dave in Houston

Yeah, it must have much worse thermal conductivity than copper (but
then, most things do!) - I can happily touch the hot water pipes here
in the bathroom, but the central heating pipes (copper) are too hot to
touch.

On Feb 19, 4:57=A0pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:

> I was thinking the same thing. =A0You'd have to drain the antifreeze,
> anyway, right?


...and then rinse! Dunno about you, but my liver and kidneys tend to
kick up a stink when I drink antifreeze! :-)

On 2/16/2012 10:12 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 2/16/12 5:04 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Cut the copper, insert the Sharkbite, and move on. The only thing I
>> do not like is that it does not make a rigid assembly when done. The
>> joint is leak proof, but the entire run of copper (in my case) is
>> floppy at the joint, and it's not always so easy to install a clamp
>> nearby to remedy that.
>
> Yes, it's a little strange to be able to spin a valve around the pipe
> and not see any water. :-) I've heard that developments are in place
> to make those connection more "secure" even if only to pacify the
> installer's doubts. I will probably use the crimp-on valves because
> that spinning might drive me nuts. :-)
>
>
>> If I had to plumb an entire house from scratch now, or install a
>> major plumbing remodel, I'd probably go with PEX. That said - I hate
>> seeing PEX just looped into place. Plumbing is supposed to have nice
>> orderly lines...
>>
>
> Blame the installer, right? I saw a wonder looking manifold
> installation on This Old House, all labeled and clipped and run in
> straight lines. It really tickled my OCD. :-)
>
>

I have the manifold in my home/laundry room. A valve for every hot and
cold connection in the house, 20 of the IIRC. In Houston we don't often
get a freeze that will freeze exterior pipes but it happens. Now
instead of leaving my water dripping or all water turned off with
drained lines I can simply turn off the exterior hose bibs and open
those valves leaving water in the rest of the house.

-MIKE- wrote:

>
> Blame the installer, right?

Of course...

> I saw a wonder looking manifold
> installation on This Old House, all labeled and clipped and run in
> straight lines. It really tickled my OCD. :-)

A thing of beauty!

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Feb 16, 5:03=A0pm, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> The houses in my tract (circa 1970) were plumbed from the street
> using this grey PVC-like pipe. =A0 It deteriorated completely within the
> first 10 years and had to be replaced at _every_ house (fortunately the
> interiors were galvy).

Just out of interest, do the houses in North America have their water
supply through metal or polyethylene pipes now?

On Feb 21, 12:43=A0pm, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

> But antifreeze for/in a drinking water supply is not Ethylene Glycol,
> engine coolant.

I am not saying it is, but I have never encountered anti-freeze for
potable water supply before!

On 2/19/2012 10:57 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 2/19/12 8:42 AM, David Paste wrote:
>> On Feb 19, 1:40 am, "m II"<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I have never trusted the push fit connectors, Father in law redid an
>>> old house using them and when the house was left to freeze over the
>>> winter with antifreeze in the pipe
>>
>> Just out of interest, why did he fill the pipes with anti-freeze
>> rather than just draining down the system and leaving it empty?
>
> I was thinking the same thing. You'd have to drain the antifreeze,
> anyway, right?
>
>

Oddly, it is common practice to fill the lines with antifreeze on motor
homes in the winter. I suspect that it is impossible to get "all" of
the water out and you flush with fresh water to get the antifreeze out.

On Feb 18, 6:09=A0pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:

> I've seen something similar looking to those in the stores.
> Expensive.

Yeah, but I wonder if a professional plumber could speed up his job as
a result to absorb that cost?

On 2/15/2012 8:44 PM, Doug White wrote:
> -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote in news:jhho4i$qn1$1

as been tested over a longer
> time span.

PEX has been in use in EU for forty years. While there is no such thing
as the "perfect" plumbing material, PEX does have a few drawbacks, but
the pluses far outweigh the drawbacks.

One thing about PEX is that it does deteriorate with exposure to
sunlight. It also must be protected from rodents. There were some
initial connection issues when it was first used in this country due to
plumbers not being familiar with the material ... that has been overcome
for years now.

> I bought some grey plastic plumbing tubing for a non-plumbing application
> about 25 years ago. 10 years ago, I wanted to get some more. I did a
> search on-line, and all I found was law suits. Not a good sign...

It is doubtful what you bought was PEX.

> Apparently after about 10 years it got brittle and exploded. It was very
> popular in RV& mobile homes, and millions of dollars worth of vehicles&
> homes were severely damaged by the stuff.

Once again, this was not the product PEX.

> We just had our bathroom remodeled, and the bulk of the plumbing was done
> with copper. The one place they used Pex was to hook a radiator into the
> hot water heating system. Getting the fittings just the right spacing
> was a pain in the neck, and using Pex gave them a little leeway. I think
> we've got about 1 foot total in the house now.

That should not concern you in the least, and it will most probably
outlast the rest of the plumbing.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 2/15/2012 8:02 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> Remodeling the bathrooms sure is a lot of work just to have an excuse to
> build a couple custom cabinets, but hey.
>
> It's been about 15 years since I built my previous home and had to deal
> with water supply. I'm using this PEX plastic pipe and some of the
> SharkBite/GatorBite fittings and valves and may I just say, holy freakin
> WOW!!! Is this stuff the $h!t or what? Talk about fast and easy.
>
> Now, I'm sure there will be a few of you geezers who will tell me all
> about the dangers of this newfangled technology, like whoever it was who
> said they preferred board lumber sub-floors over plywood. I'm still LMAO
> at that. Whatever. Go chase the kids of your lawn.
>
> Anyway, just had to shout from the rooftops about how easy plumbing
> water is compared to days gone by.


No kidding, and I'm an old geezer, but not one of those. :)

The ease with which you can fabricate a PEX manifold system to do
plumbing "home runs", like electricians do with wiring, makes getting
both hot and cold to all areas of a home a piece o' cake, and much
cheaper, meaning you can put money elsewhere, where it can be seen by
the buyer/customer.

Too bad there are still municipalities where you can't use PEX. Like the
area I've built most of the homes in the last ten years. ... it's
against code here. :(

Still, I use PEX whenever, and wherever, I can.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 2/21/2012 5:16 PM, David Paste wrote:
> On Feb 21, 12:43 pm, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> But antifreeze for/in a drinking water supply is not Ethylene Glycol,
>> engine coolant.
>
> I am not saying it is, but I have never encountered anti-freeze for
> potable water supply before!

where in the world do you live?


--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 22:27:21 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>
>> Oh, great one, Doug. Damnit, from now on, when I see your name, I'll
>> think "Jello In Heat!"
>
>Now I have to explain why I'm sitting in the den laughing out loud all by
>myself... after I get done laughing. You earn a merit badge for that one
>Larry.

<g>

--
Good ideas alter the power balance in relationships, that is why
good ideas are always initially resisted. Good ideas come with a
heavy burden. Which is why so few people have them. So few people
can handle it.
-- Hugh Macleod

Well that's not true. Lead free does work, its just a bitch to work with.

I have sweated a few that have not had a problem in 12 years.

I did try to use the lead free for a 000 welding wire to connector. That
didn't work well. Wound up crimping it. But for pipe I have been
successful. Just don't heat the joint too much.


On 2/17/2012 4:56 PM, m II wrote:
> free solder doesn't work and I have had several "professional joints"
> done by 40 year veterans leak already. PEX is always welcome here. Over
> 4000' of it in my house.

On 2/16/12 5:04 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Cut the copper, insert the Sharkbite, and move on. The only thing I
> do not like is that it does not make a rigid assembly when done. The
> joint is leak proof, but the entire run of copper (in my case) is
> floppy at the joint, and it's not always so easy to install a clamp
> nearby to remedy that.

Yes, it's a little strange to be able to spin a valve around the pipe
and not see any water. :-) I've heard that developments are in place
to make those connection more "secure" even if only to pacify the
installer's doubts. I will probably use the crimp-on valves because
that spinning might drive me nuts. :-)


> If I had to plumb an entire house from scratch now, or install a
> major plumbing remodel, I'd probably go with PEX. That said - I hate
> seeing PEX just looped into place. Plumbing is supposed to have nice
> orderly lines...
>

Blame the installer, right? I saw a wonder looking manifold
installation on This Old House, all labeled and clipped and run in
straight lines. It really tickled my OCD. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2/16/12 9:16 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
> On 2/16/2012 5:04 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Now, I'm sure there will be a few of you geezers who will tell me all
>>> about the dangers of this newfangled technology, like whoever it was
>>> who said they preferred board lumber sub-floors over plywood. I'm
>>> still LMAO at that. Whatever. Go chase the kids of your lawn.
>>>
>>
>> I'm one of those die hards that warms slowly to new technologies
>> sometimes -
>> not always. I stayed away from Sharkbites for the longest time, and then
>> while plumbing in a new bathroom in the basement, I finally broke down
>> and
>> used one. I was very familiar with how they worked, and I had sold a
>> million of them to people before ever using one myself. Admitedly - it
>> was
>> slick. Cut the copper, insert the Sharkbite, and move on. The only
>> thing I
>> do not like is that it does not make a rigid assembly when done. The
>> joint
>> is leak proof, but the entire run of copper (in my case) is floppy at the
>> joint, and it's not always so easy to install a clamp nearby to remedy
>> that.
>> If I had to plumb an entire house from scratch now, or install a major
>> plumbing remodel, I'd probably go with PEX. That said - I hate seeing PEX
>> just looped into place. Plumbing is supposed to have nice orderly
>> lines...
>>
>
> You also lose any electrical bonding there might have been there. Keep
> that in mind. You may want to put and appropriate jumper across that
> connection.
>

AFAIK, using the water pipe to ground the electric has been done away
with long ago, so it's probably good practice to replacing it with a
grounding rod, anyway.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 06:48:04 -0600, Leon wrote:

>> I bought some grey plastic plumbing tubing for a non-plumbing
>> application about 25 years ago. 10 years ago, I wanted to get some
>> more. I did a search on-line, and all I found was law suits. Not a
>> good sign...
>
> Sure you did not buy conduit???

Nope. What he bought was most likely polybutylene.





--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

On 2/16/12 11:46 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 2/16/2012 10:31 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 2/16/12 9:16 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
>
>>> You also lose any electrical bonding there might have been there. Keep
>>> that in mind. You may want to put and appropriate jumper across that
>>> connection.
>>>
>>
>> AFAIK, using the water pipe to ground the electric has been done away
>> with long ago, so it's probably good practice to replacing it with a
>> grounding rod, anyway.
>
> Particularly in "renovations", an inspector will still be very likely
> looking for a jumper ... belt and suspenders for old folks and old
> installations. :)
>

I told this story before....
I was framing a studio... ehem, I mean, in-law suite for a friend. The
*local community* building inspector came around the to fluff out his
tail feathers to make sure we knew who was the peacock. We had just
finished putting up the roof trusses.... trusses, not rafters.

He told me I needed to run 2x4's across the span of the exterior load
bearing walls to keep the rafters from pushing the walls out. At first,
I thought he just glanced and didn't notice the trusses, so I said, "I'm
sorry, I don't think you noticed that we used trusses." He said we still
needed the 2x4's to keep the walls from pushing out. I tried to explain
to him that there was absolutely no outward pressure with trusses, only
downward from gravity. I further explained that each truss already had a
2x4 running its entire length that was tied down to the walls with
butterfly hurricane clips. He looked at me like I was talking in French.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2/16/12 6:15 AM, steve robinson wrote:
> David Paste wrote:
>
>> On Feb 16, 2:02 am, -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm using this PEX plastic pipe and some of the
>>> SharkBite/GatorBite fittings and valves and may I just say, holy
>>> freakin WOW!!! Is this stuff the $h!t or what? Talk about fast
>>> and easy.
>>
>>
>> Yeah, it is great stuff indeed! I was surprised when I pulled up a
>> few floorboards to move a radiator last time I did some plumbing
>> and found that the water mains supply to the loft was plastic pipe
>> - don't know what brand it was as this must have been done about 40
>> years ago. The central heating was still copper though.
>>
>> This winter, the garden tap supply burst on the only section of
>> copper pipe there was (about 6 inches from the water company's
>> plastic supply pipe to the tap itself). Needless to say, this'll be
>> replaced with PEX when it warms up a bit!
>>
>> I have to admit though, there is a lovely glow of satisfaction to be
>> had from a well-done bit of copper plumbing! And my grandad still
>> doesn't believe anyone has the right to call themselves a plumber
>> unless they know how to properly wipe a lead pipe joint!
>
> Plumb is latin for lead so he is spot on


Car is short for carriage, as in, horseless, but I don't see too many
mechanics needing to know how to change broken spokes in wooden wheels. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2/15/12 8:45 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 2/15/2012 8:02 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> Remodeling the bathrooms sure is a lot of work just to have an excuse to
>> build a couple custom cabinets, but hey.
>>
>> It's been about 15 years since I built my previous home and had to deal
>> with water supply. I'm using this PEX plastic pipe and some of the
>> SharkBite/GatorBite fittings and valves and may I just say, holy freakin
>> WOW!!! Is this stuff the $h!t or what? Talk about fast and easy.
>>
>> Now, I'm sure there will be a few of you geezers who will tell me all
>> about the dangers of this newfangled technology, like whoever it was who
>> said they preferred board lumber sub-floors over plywood. I'm still LMAO
>> at that. Whatever. Go chase the kids of your lawn.
>>
>> Anyway, just had to shout from the rooftops about how easy plumbing
>> water is compared to days gone by.
>
>
> No kidding, and I'm an old geezer, but not one of those. :)
>
> The ease with which you can fabricate a PEX manifold system to do
> plumbing "home runs", like electricians do with wiring, makes getting
> both hot and cold to all areas of a home a piece o' cake, and much
> cheaper, meaning you can put money elsewhere, where it can be seen by
> the buyer/customer.
>
> Too bad there are still municipalities where you can't use PEX. Like the
> area I've built most of the homes in the last ten years. ... it's
> against code here. :(
>
> Still, I use PEX whenever, and wherever, I can.
>

I ran the lines to the guest lav and toilet and couldn't believe how
easy it was to pull (much, much easier than romex wire). I connected up
a T in the line and the stub-outs all using the copper ring crimps and
again, couldn't believe how fast and easy. It felt like I was cheating.

If it was copper or CPVC it would've taken me all day to run it under
this weird dropped ceiling section of my basement. I have no idea how I
would've sweated or glued it, short of tearing the ceiling out.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2/17/12 4:52 PM, Mike M wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 10:31:47 -0600, -MIKE-<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2/16/12 9:16 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
>>> On 2/16/2012 5:04 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, I'm sure there will be a few of you geezers who will tell me all
>>>>> about the dangers of this newfangled technology, like whoever it was
>>>>> who said they preferred board lumber sub-floors over plywood. I'm
>>>>> still LMAO at that. Whatever. Go chase the kids of your lawn.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm one of those die hards that warms slowly to new technologies
>>>> sometimes -
>>>> not always. I stayed away from Sharkbites for the longest time, and then
>>>> while plumbing in a new bathroom in the basement, I finally broke down
>>>> and
>>>> used one. I was very familiar with how they worked, and I had sold a
>>>> million of them to people before ever using one myself. Admitedly - it
>>>> was
>>>> slick. Cut the copper, insert the Sharkbite, and move on. The only
>>>> thing I
>>>> do not like is that it does not make a rigid assembly when done. The
>>>> joint
>>>> is leak proof, but the entire run of copper (in my case) is floppy at the
>>>> joint, and it's not always so easy to install a clamp nearby to remedy
>>>> that.
>>>> If I had to plumb an entire house from scratch now, or install a major
>>>> plumbing remodel, I'd probably go with PEX. That said - I hate seeing PEX
>>>> just looped into place. Plumbing is supposed to have nice orderly
>>>> lines...
>>>>
>>>
>>> You also lose any electrical bonding there might have been there. Keep
>>> that in mind. You may want to put and appropriate jumper across that
>>> connection.
>>>
>>
>> AFAIK, using the water pipe to ground the electric has been done away
>> with long ago, so it's probably good practice to replacing it with a
>> grounding rod, anyway.
>
> As far as the grounding the service that is pretty much true as it
> isn't always metal. The interior piping should have a jumper if you
> don't have a mechanical joint. There are some exceptions for isolated
> sections of pipe. But that bond is needed to protect your ass when
> your touching the metal.
>
> Mike M

Just when I thought I would ignore my anal side, I decided to replace
the copper from the water main and use some manifolds. Low and behold,
there's a ground wire on the water pipe coming in from the meter. I'm
going to replace everything "after" the grounding wire and leave the
ground, but I'm also going to look into sinking a grounding rod and
doing away with the pipe ground.

There are a few reasons I'm replacing the copper.
- They ran 1/2" from the galvanized meter feed instead of 3/4" and
reducing as the runs split, this included 1/2" to the water heater.
- There is no pressure regulator on the house and Nashville's water
pressure has been slowing rising due to all the new subdivisions around
here.
- I *really* love these manifolds and they need 3/4" input for good
pressure.

Let's just hope the galvanized from the meter isn't so corroded it snaps
when I try to tighten the adapter to it.
I'm also going to take the copper pipe I tear out down to the scrap yard.
With the price of copper, I should at least get a couple six packs out
of it. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2/17/12 3:56 PM, m II wrote:
> The pinch rings for the Watts PEX system sold at HD here are top of the
> line. Tool is $30, the crimped joints will turn around many turns inside
> the joint without a drip, can be released easily with a needle nose
> pliers and sharp screwdriver, and the pinch can be done in a tight
> corner without the tool needing to be around the ring. Cheap and
> reliable in the 5 years I have been using them. Never had a leak yet in
> a house full of them.
>

FWIW, I'm using the solid copper rings, not the steel clamps.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2/18/12 6:15 AM, David Paste wrote:
> On Feb 18, 3:17 am, -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 2/17/12 3:56 PM, m II wrote:
>>
>>> The pinch rings for the Watts PEX system sold at HD here are top of the
>>> line. Tool is $30, the crimped joints will turn around many turns inside
>>> the joint without a drip, can be released easily with a needle nose
>>> pliers and sharp screwdriver, and the pinch can be done in a tight
>>> corner without the tool needing to be around the ring. Cheap and
>>> reliable in the 5 years I have been using them. Never had a leak yet in
>>> a house full of them.
>>
>> FWIW, I'm using the solid copper rings, not the steel clamps.
>
>
> Do you have the push-fit systems with the PEX stuff over there?
>
> http://www.speedfit.co.uk/Home/Technical-Support.aspx
>
> Have a look at a video or two there.

I've seen something similar looking to those in the stores.
Expensive.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2/18/12 2:40 PM, Mike M wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 21:11:55 -0600, -MIKE-<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2/17/12 4:52 PM, Mike M wrote:
>>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 10:31:47 -0600, -MIKE-<[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2/16/12 9:16 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
>>>>> On 2/16/2012 5:04 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now, I'm sure there will be a few of you geezers who will tell me all
>>>>>>> about the dangers of this newfangled technology, like whoever it was
>>>>>>> who said they preferred board lumber sub-floors over plywood. I'm
>>>>>>> still LMAO at that. Whatever. Go chase the kids of your lawn.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm one of those die hards that warms slowly to new technologies
>>>>>> sometimes -
>>>>>> not always. I stayed away from Sharkbites for the longest time, and then
>>>>>> while plumbing in a new bathroom in the basement, I finally broke down
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> used one. I was very familiar with how they worked, and I had sold a
>>>>>> million of them to people before ever using one myself. Admitedly - it
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> slick. Cut the copper, insert the Sharkbite, and move on. The only
>>>>>> thing I
>>>>>> do not like is that it does not make a rigid assembly when done. The
>>>>>> joint
>>>>>> is leak proof, but the entire run of copper (in my case) is floppy at the
>>>>>> joint, and it's not always so easy to install a clamp nearby to remedy
>>>>>> that.
>>>>>> If I had to plumb an entire house from scratch now, or install a major
>>>>>> plumbing remodel, I'd probably go with PEX. That said - I hate seeing PEX
>>>>>> just looped into place. Plumbing is supposed to have nice orderly
>>>>>> lines...
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You also lose any electrical bonding there might have been there. Keep
>>>>> that in mind. You may want to put and appropriate jumper across that
>>>>> connection.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> AFAIK, using the water pipe to ground the electric has been done away
>>>> with long ago, so it's probably good practice to replacing it with a
>>>> grounding rod, anyway.
>>>
>>> As far as the grounding the service that is pretty much true as it
>>> isn't always metal. The interior piping should have a jumper if you
>>> don't have a mechanical joint. There are some exceptions for isolated
>>> sections of pipe. But that bond is needed to protect your ass when
>>> your touching the metal.
>>>
>>> Mike M
>>
>> Just when I thought I would ignore my anal side, I decided to replace
>> the copper from the water main and use some manifolds. Low and behold,
>> there's a ground wire on the water pipe coming in from the meter. I'm
>> going to replace everything "after" the grounding wire and leave the
>> ground, but I'm also going to look into sinking a grounding rod and
>> doing away with the pipe ground.
>>
>> There are a few reasons I'm replacing the copper.
>> - They ran 1/2" from the galvanized meter feed instead of 3/4" and
>> reducing as the runs split, this included 1/2" to the water heater.
>> - There is no pressure regulator on the house and Nashville's water
>> pressure has been slowing rising due to all the new subdivisions around
>> here.
>> - I *really* love these manifolds and they need 3/4" input for good
>> pressure.
>>
>> Let's just hope the galvanized from the meter isn't so corroded it snaps
>> when I try to tighten the adapter to it.
>> I'm also going to take the copper pipe I tear out down to the scrap yard.
>> With the price of copper, I should at least get a couple six packs out
>> of it. :-)
>
> This is from the NEC Handbook which pretty much explains the interior
> part. If your putting in plastic to replace the galvanized then
> obviously you can't ground. In my local they require two ground rods
> so you might check your local regulations on that. Better to have too
> much grounding then not enough.
>
> Bonding the metal water piping system of a building or
> structure, as required by 250.104(A) is not the same as using
> the metal water piping system as a grounding electrode.
> Bonding to the grounding electrode system places the
> bonded components at the same voltage level. For example,
> a current of 2000 amperes across 25 ft of 6 AWG copper
> conductor produces a voltage differential of approximately
> 26 volts. Sections 250.104(A)(1) and (A)(3) require the
> metal water piping system of a building or structure to be
> bonded to the service equipment or grounding electrode
> conductor or, where supplied by a feeder or branch circuit,
> to the building or structure disconnecting means or grounding
> electrode conductor. Bonding requirements for buildings
>
> Mike M
> with multiple occupancies and isolated metal water piping
> systems are specified in 250.104(A)(2). See the commentary
> associated with this section.
> Where it cannot be reasonably concluded that the hot
> and cold water pipes are reliably bonded through mechanical
> connections, an electrical bonding jumper is required to
> ensure that this connection is made. Some judgment must be
> exercised for each installation. Isolated sections of metal
> piping (such as may be used for a plumbing fixture connection)
> that are connected to an overall nonmetallic water piping
> system are not subject to the requirements of
> 250.104(A). The isolated sections are not a metal water piping
> system. The special installation requirements provided
> in 250.64(A), (B), and (E) also apply to the water piping
> bonding jumper.
> (2) Buildings of M


Just talked to my electrical engineer buddy and he said if it's not just
a bonding wire and it is truly the ground there could be current running
through it when I disconnect it so I need to turn the main breaker off.
Glad I called him. :-)

I can find no other ground wire coming out of the meter or breaker
panel, so I'm going to assume it's ground and follow his precautions.

If you don't hear back from me, Karl & Steve, help my wife sell off my
tools. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2/18/2012 5:06 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> Just talked to my electrical engineer buddy and he said if it's not just
> a bonding wire and it is truly the ground there could be current running
> through it when I disconnect it so I need to turn the main breaker off.
> Glad I called him. :-)
>
> I can find no other ground wire coming out of the meter or breaker
> panel, so I'm going to assume it's ground and follow his precautions.
>
> If you don't hear back from me, Karl & Steve, help my wife sell off my tools. :-)

I suppose you probably have a nice file containing the receipts for all the
tools so she knows exactly how much they're worth, right? You're no fun. :-)

--
Any given amount of traffic flow, no matter how
sparse, will expand to fill all available lanes.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On 2/19/12 8:42 AM, David Paste wrote:
> On Feb 19, 1:40 am, "m II"<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I have never trusted the push fit connectors, Father in law redid an
>> old house using them and when the house was left to freeze over the
>> winter with antifreeze in the pipe
>
> Just out of interest, why did he fill the pipes with anti-freeze
> rather than just draining down the system and leaving it empty?

I was thinking the same thing. You'd have to drain the antifreeze,
anyway, right?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2/19/12 11:57 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 2/19/12 8:42 AM, David Paste wrote:
>> On Feb 19, 1:40 am, "m II"<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I have never trusted the push fit connectors, Father in law redid an
>>> old house using them and when the house was left to freeze over the
>>> winter with antifreeze in the pipe
>>
>> Just out of interest, why did he fill the pipes with anti-freeze
>> rather than just draining down the system and leaving it empty?
>
> I was thinking the same thing. You'd have to drain the antifreeze,
> anyway, right?
>
>
Why even put anti freeze in the lines, turn the water off at the main,
and just drain the lines, especially easy if there is a basement sink.

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

On 2/20/12 8:39 AM, m II wrote:
> Lines don't always drain and anti-freeze is the only way to insure they
> don't freeze in low spots. This is the same for lawn watering systems.
>
>
>
> -------------
> "FrozenNorth" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Why even put anti freeze in the lines, turn the water off at the main,
> and just drain the lines, especially easy if there is a basement sink.
>
Draining the lines and leaving taps open leaves plenty of room for
expansion for whatever little water remains.

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

On 2/20/12 7:39 AM, m II wrote:
> Lines don't always drain and anti-freeze is the only way to insure they
> don't freeze in low spots. This is the same for lawn watering systems.
>

Ironically, one of the advantages of Pex is the ability to freeze with
water without breaking. I don't remember the scenario which brought
about this particular tangent of discussion, but the pipe used was
certainly not Pex pipe.



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2/20/12 12:05 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 2/20/2012 9:29 AM, FrozenNorth wrote:
>> On 2/20/12 8:39 AM, m II wrote:
>>> Lines don't always drain and anti-freeze is the only way to insure they
>>> don't freeze in low spots. This is the same for lawn watering systems.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------------
>>> "FrozenNorth" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>>> Why even put anti freeze in the lines, turn the water off at the main,
>>> and just drain the lines, especially easy if there is a basement sink.
>>>
>> Draining the lines and leaving taps open leaves plenty of room for
>> expansion for whatever little water remains.
>>
>
> But those lines will still freeze and may prevent you from using the
> pluming until it thaws.

Agreed, but it beats damaged plumbing. :-)

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

On 2/16/2012 4:17 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:

> I know of what you speak. I can fix and build a lot of things. Plumbing
> always gives me problems. The hardest part of plumbing is fitting my
> considerable bulk under the sink to do some kind of repair. That is a
> job where being small would be an asset.

Same. When building or buying a sink cabinet, make sure the two doors
don't have a style in the middle, that really sucks. Either use a door
with a "style" attached to the door so it looks like a style, or don't
use one at all. Trying to squeeze 260 lbs of death, fear and
destruction into a one door hole is a bear.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 2/21/12 9:25 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 2/16/2012 4:17 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>> I know of what you speak. I can fix and build a lot of things. Plumbing
>> always gives me problems. The hardest part of plumbing is fitting my
>> considerable bulk under the sink to do some kind of repair. That is a
>> job where being small would be an asset.
>
> Same. When building or buying a sink cabinet, make sure the two doors
> don't have a style in the middle, that really sucks. Either use a door
> with a "style" attached to the door so it looks like a style, or don't
> use one at all. Trying to squeeze 260 lbs of death, fear and destruction
> into a one door hole is a bear.
>

I'm only a buck-75 and I can't maneuver around those things.
In fact, last time I had to work under my sink, I cut.... or should I
say, "pulled" the thing off. It was held on by 4 correlated staples.

Soon after, I got rid of them on all the other cabinets.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2/21/2012 7:25 AM, Jack wrote:
Trying to squeeze 260 lbs of death, fear and destruction
into a one door hole is a bear.

Maybe we should cut back on the honey buns and the
Krispy Kreme donuts.

On 2/22/2012 2:34 PM, Pat Barber wrote:
> On 2/21/2012 7:25 AM, Jack wrote:
> Trying to squeeze 260 lbs of death, fear and destruction
> into a one door hole is a bear.
>
> Maybe we should cut back on the honey buns and the
> Krispy Kreme donuts.

That would get me down to 220, my fighting weight. Not enough to make
squeezing into a one door hole not a bear. I don't eat that crap [much]
anyway. At 200 I look like a scarecrow, 220, awesome, 260 old and
cuddly. Old's hard to change, so cuddly works:-)

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 2/23/2012 2:31 PM, David Paste wrote:
> On Feb 22, 1:05 pm, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> ... go to a RV supply store ...
>
> Ah! RVs! I once drove to the Hoover Dam and saw the most amazing
> collection of RVs, fifth wheels and caravans I've ever seen - some of
> them were bigger than my house, I swear. Being on the shore of Lake
> Mead, with endless blue skies, nice& warm... man, you couldn't blame
> anyone for never moving from there!

once my wife and i drove up and pulled out at the overlook there. the
parking lot was filled with busloads of japanese tourists. we pulled up
in a pair of corvettes, and watched the entire crowd slew cameras in
unison, right before they stampeded over to have their pictures taken
alongside our cars.

we had to wait about 15 minutes before the crowd thinned enough to drive
off safely.

Still, some great lines....

>> On 2/21/2012 7:25 AM, Jack wrote:
>> Trying to squeeze 260 lbs of death, fear and destruction
>> into a one door hole is a bear.

> That would get me down to 220, my fighting weight. Not enough to make
> squeezing into a one door hole not a bear. I don't eat that crap [much]
> anyway. At 200 I look like a scarecrow, 220, awesome, 260 old and
> cuddly. Old's hard to change, so cuddly works:-)
>

On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 21:11:55 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 2/17/12 4:52 PM, Mike M wrote:
>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 10:31:47 -0600, -MIKE-<[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/16/12 9:16 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
>>>> On 2/16/2012 5:04 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, I'm sure there will be a few of you geezers who will tell me all
>>>>>> about the dangers of this newfangled technology, like whoever it was
>>>>>> who said they preferred board lumber sub-floors over plywood. I'm
>>>>>> still LMAO at that. Whatever. Go chase the kids of your lawn.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm one of those die hards that warms slowly to new technologies
>>>>> sometimes -
>>>>> not always. I stayed away from Sharkbites for the longest time, and then
>>>>> while plumbing in a new bathroom in the basement, I finally broke down
>>>>> and
>>>>> used one. I was very familiar with how they worked, and I had sold a
>>>>> million of them to people before ever using one myself. Admitedly - it
>>>>> was
>>>>> slick. Cut the copper, insert the Sharkbite, and move on. The only
>>>>> thing I
>>>>> do not like is that it does not make a rigid assembly when done. The
>>>>> joint
>>>>> is leak proof, but the entire run of copper (in my case) is floppy at the
>>>>> joint, and it's not always so easy to install a clamp nearby to remedy
>>>>> that.
>>>>> If I had to plumb an entire house from scratch now, or install a major
>>>>> plumbing remodel, I'd probably go with PEX. That said - I hate seeing PEX
>>>>> just looped into place. Plumbing is supposed to have nice orderly
>>>>> lines...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You also lose any electrical bonding there might have been there. Keep
>>>> that in mind. You may want to put and appropriate jumper across that
>>>> connection.
>>>>
>>>
>>> AFAIK, using the water pipe to ground the electric has been done away
>>> with long ago, so it's probably good practice to replacing it with a
>>> grounding rod, anyway.
>>
>> As far as the grounding the service that is pretty much true as it
>> isn't always metal. The interior piping should have a jumper if you
>> don't have a mechanical joint. There are some exceptions for isolated
>> sections of pipe. But that bond is needed to protect your ass when
>> your touching the metal.
>>
>> Mike M
>
>Just when I thought I would ignore my anal side, I decided to replace
>the copper from the water main and use some manifolds. Low and behold,
>there's a ground wire on the water pipe coming in from the meter. I'm
>going to replace everything "after" the grounding wire and leave the
>ground, but I'm also going to look into sinking a grounding rod and
>doing away with the pipe ground.
>
>There are a few reasons I'm replacing the copper.
>- They ran 1/2" from the galvanized meter feed instead of 3/4" and
>reducing as the runs split, this included 1/2" to the water heater.
>- There is no pressure regulator on the house and Nashville's water
>pressure has been slowing rising due to all the new subdivisions around
>here.
>- I *really* love these manifolds and they need 3/4" input for good
>pressure.
>
>Let's just hope the galvanized from the meter isn't so corroded it snaps
>when I try to tighten the adapter to it.
>I'm also going to take the copper pipe I tear out down to the scrap yard.
>With the price of copper, I should at least get a couple six packs out
>of it. :-)

This is from the NEC Handbook which pretty much explains the interior
part. If your putting in plastic to replace the galvanized then
obviously you can't ground. In my local they require two ground rods
so you might check your local regulations on that. Better to have too
much grounding then not enough.

Bonding the metal water piping system of a building or
structure, as required by 250.104(A) is not the same as using
the metal water piping system as a grounding electrode.
Bonding to the grounding electrode system places the
bonded components at the same voltage level. For example,
a current of 2000 amperes across 25 ft of 6 AWG copper
conductor produces a voltage differential of approximately
26 volts. Sections 250.104(A)(1) and (A)(3) require the
metal water piping system of a building or structure to be
bonded to the service equipment or grounding electrode
conductor or, where supplied by a feeder or branch circuit,
to the building or structure disconnecting means or grounding
electrode conductor. Bonding requirements for buildings

Mike M
with multiple occupancies and isolated metal water piping
systems are specified in 250.104(A)(2). See the commentary
associated with this section.
Where it cannot be reasonably concluded that the hot
and cold water pipes are reliably bonded through mechanical
connections, an electrical bonding jumper is required to
ensure that this connection is made. Some judgment must be
exercised for each installation. Isolated sections of metal
piping (such as may be used for a plumbing fixture connection)
that are connected to an overall nonmetallic water piping
system are not subject to the requirements of
250.104(A). The isolated sections are not a metal water piping
system. The special installation requirements provided
in 250.64(A), (B), and (E) also apply to the water piping
bonding jumper.
(2) Buildings of M

I have never trusted the push fit connectors, Father in law redid an
old house using them and when the house was left to freeze over the
winter with antifreeze in the pipes the piping pulls out of the
fittings and flooded his house when he warmed it up again! Why would I
pay that huge expense when the pinch rings are so cheap and the tool so
cheap. Several ties I have crimped the PEX to a NPT adapter and then
had to screw the MPT into the FPT....no problem.


-------------------
"David Paste" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

On Feb 18, 6:09 pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:

> I've seen something similar looking to those in the stores.
> Expensive.

Yeah, but I wonder if a professional plumber could speed up his job as
a result to absorb that cost?

On 2/20/2012 3:41 AM, David Paste wrote:
> On Feb 19, 4:57 pm, -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I was thinking the same thing. You'd have to drain the antifreeze,
>> anyway, right?
>
>
> ...and then rinse! Dunno about you, but my liver and kidneys tend to
> kick up a stink when I drink antifreeze! :-)

There is a plumbing "anti-freeze" that is supposedly non-toxic for use
in water pipes ... the RV industry uses it often.

Still, if anything can take less effort than turning off the water and
draining pipes, I'd like to know about it.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>On 2/15/2012 8:44 PM, Doug White wrote:
>> -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote in news:jhho4i$qn1$1
>> @speranza.aioe.org:
>>
>>> Remodeling the bathrooms sure is a lot of work just to have an excuse
>> to
>>> build a couple custom cabinets, but hey.
>>>
>>> It's been about 15 years since I built my previous home and had to deal
>>> with water supply. I'm using this PEX plastic pipe and some of the
>>> SharkBite/GatorBite fittings and valves and may I just say, holy
>> freakin
>>> WOW!!! Is this stuff the $h!t or what? Talk about fast and easy.
>>>
>>> Now, I'm sure there will be a few of you geezers who will tell me all
>>> about the dangers of this newfangled technology, like whoever it was
>> who
>>> said they preferred board lumber sub-floors over plywood. I'm still
>> LMAO
>>> at that. Whatever. Go chase the kids of your lawn.
>>>
>>> Anyway, just had to shout from the rooftops about how easy plumbing
>>> water is compared to days gone by.
>>
>> It's probably OK, but I prefer stuff that has been tested over a longer
>> time span.
>>
>> I bought some grey plastic plumbing tubing for a non-plumbing application
>> about 25 years ago. 10 years ago, I wanted to get some more. I did a
>> search on-line, and all I found was law suits. Not a good sign...
>
>Sure you did not buy conduit???

The houses in my tract (circa 1970) were plumbed from the street
using this grey PVC-like pipe. It deteriorated completely within the
first 10 years and had to be replaced at _every_ house (fortunately the
interiors were galvy).

scott