start all over again in this hobby / business / trade, what mistakes did
you make the first time around that you'd skip on the second go around?
I'm kind of looking for arrows pointing to where the land mines are.
I think I'd skip HF for my mainstay tools EXCEPT where I had carefully
specced the exact tool I needed to buy and HF had a tool that EXACTLY met
that spec or exceeded it. I just bought a Milwaukee 5625-29 router and
it's a real eye-opener. Can't get anything like this at HF.
I also think I'd downplay my willingness to do custom work and put more
effort into building inventory to sell from.
And I'd also give more thought to cost tracking so I'd be collecting
needed data from day one.
I find that I have a LOT of pen blanks cut from unremarkable wood. Skip
that ... anything that isn't eye candy is firewood.
I've got others ... but I'd like to hear from you.
Bill
Bill wrote:
> start all over again in this hobby / business / trade, what mistakes did
> you make the first time around that you'd skip on the second go around?
>
It's easy to say that I would have not purchased a small Craftsman
table saw 7 years ago, and instead saved up for a really nice table
saw. Then again, 7 years ago I had no idea that I'd be so into
woodworking years down the road - so maybe that $200 saw shouldn't be
considered a mistake.
Here's one though: We decided that buying rough cut lumber beat the
pants off of dealing with the garbage available at HD/Lowes, and
purchased a 6" Jet jointer and a planer. A year and a half later, I'm
wishing that we'd gone with an 8" jointer, with longer tables. (Why
does it seem like most of the boards we end up with are 6.5 or 7 inches
wide?!?!)
Mike
>start all over again in this hobby / business / trade, what mistakes did
>you make the first time around that you'd skip on the second go around?
Instruction. If I had it to do over again, I'd get lots of expert
instruction from day one. It's too hard to try to discover everything
about woodturning on your own. Getting started right can save years and
years of mistakes and frustration. Musicians take lessons, athletes have
coaches, why would we as woodturners want to give up the advantage of
instruction and learn the hard way? I know it's fun to tinker and figure
things out for ourselves, but it's called "learning the hard way" for a
reason. Woodturning should be fun. How many beginners experience catches
or are afraid of their skew? How fun is that? And learn from true
experts - they won't start you down the wrong path like some
less-than-experts who only think they know what they are doing. Learn to
be versatile. Learn many ways to make a cut, mount a blank, apply a
finish, or anything else we do. Then you can choose the most ideal method
for each particular instance and not do everything the same way because
it's the only way you know. Knowledge is the key to fun and success in
woodturning. Books, videos, demonstrations, and symposiums are all
sources of woodturning knowledge, but private instruction is *BY FAR* the
best way to mastery. Do yourself a favor, treat yourself to some lessons,
and maximize the fun and satisfaction from your time spent at the lathe.
-mike paulson, fort collins, co
Bill wrote:
> start all over again in this hobby / business / trade, what mistakes did
> you make the first time around that you'd skip on the second go around?
For me, it's a hobby. So I have that slant. The rest of your post
sounds like a business so I'm not sure I can help. But fwiw:
I'd avoid benchtop tools entirely.
I'd find grizzly first (rather than after buying the tools), go there
to check things out in person (which I still haven't done), then not be
a delta snob. Now that I have several delta and several grizzly tools,
I'm kicking myself for not finding griz sooner.
I'd always buy the best tools I could afford even if it meant getting
one good tool instead of two medeocre ones.
I'd give more thought to (pricey) hand tools up front rather than
buying the cheap ones, skipping all that useless info about sharpening,
then passing judgement on hand tools as too hard to use. :-)
I'd start out on smaller projects first rather than aiming big up
front.
I'd give a lot more thought to where the shop is and how nice it is to
be there. I'm getting sick of sharing the garage with all the bikes
and lawn equipment and putting up with the cold weather. We're getting
ready to move. As soon as we're in the new place, i'm building a
dedicated shop. SWMBO is on board already. :-)
I'd start out with more disposable income. :-)
> I think I'd skip HF for my mainstay tools EXCEPT where I had carefully
> specced the exact tool I needed to buy and HF had a tool that EXACTLY met
> that spec or exceeded it. I just bought a Milwaukee 5625-29 router and
> it's a real eye-opener. Can't get anything like this at HF.
Yeah, i'd skip HF for almost everything except the really cheap
odd-ball stuff. I might buy a bench grinder or a vice from them for
example, but never anything that I would need or expect to be accurate.
> I also think I'd downplay my willingness to do custom work and put more
> effort into building inventory to sell from.
The down side here is that you may get bored with what you're making.
The upside is that you'll nail the process and get really efficient.
You'll also have all the jigs and patterns figured out.
> And I'd also give more thought to cost tracking so I'd be collecting
> needed data from day one.
This is just good business sense.
> I find that I have a LOT of pen blanks cut from unremarkable wood. Skip
> that ... anything that isn't eye candy is firewood.
Maybe you could come up with a jig that would let you crank them out in
seconds rather than hand-turning each one. Then you could sell them as
discount models.
brian
Mike wrote:
> Here's one though: We decided that buying rough cut lumber beat the
> pants off of dealing with the garbage available at HD/Lowes, and
> purchased a 6" Jet jointer and a planer. A year and a half later, I'm
> wishing that we'd gone with an 8" jointer, with longer tables. (Why
> does it seem like most of the boards we end up with are 6.5 or 7 inches
> wide?!?!)
Ha! This is exactly why I started with a riser block when I bought my
14" bandsaw. It wasn't because I wanted to resaw 12" boards. It was
because I wanted to resaw 7" boards.
After the delta benchtop jointer mistake, I jumped right to the 8"
grizzly dj-20 clone.
I can't believe I actually had foresight for a change. :-)
brian
Frank Boettcher wrote:
> That's easy. When I built my shop (hobby), I would have made it twice
> as large
So how big would you make it to start? I'm in a three car garage now
that I share with a motorcade of bycicles and a lot of yard equipment.
So really, it's like 2.5 instead of 3. For me, I feel like it's not
enough space. And considering that I'd like a separate finishing room
and a separate room for the DC and compressor, what should I aim for?
4-car garage size? Should I make the steel building taller so I can
build up inside?
>and immediately installed a 60 amp subpanel.
Agreed. I went with the 100, not for the extra juice, but for the
extra breaker positions. The flexability of a subpanel makes a big
difference. And the 100 would allow a 3-phase converter if I really go
off the deep end.
brian
Frank Boettcher wrote:
> On 25 Oct 2006 15:11:13 -0700, "brianlanning" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> My current is just under 400 sq.ft., dedicated only to woodworking.
> I did a layout that works for me at 1000 sq.ft. and was planning to
> move and build same. Katrina changed those plans, so I am now
> contemplating staying put and doubling the current to 800 feet which
> is all I can get on the lot without removing some very established
> native trees (that provide great shade for the shop).
We haven't bought the lot yet, so the shop plans (and long term plans
for a couple other extra buildings) are definitly factored in to the
house shopping.
> The 1000 ft layout included a finishing booth, but with swing away
> walls.
That's interesting. I was thinking that I would try to seal the
finishing room in an attempt to keep out as much dust as possible. The
swing away walls will make that tough. On the other hand, you'd get
that space for other purposes if you need it. There's also the problem
of getting big pieces in and out of the finishing room.
>I'm not sure I can get that in the 800 ft layout but going to
> try, however both have separate rooms or actually closets for an air
> compressor and a cyclone dust collector.
Separate the compressor and DC? I had planned to put them in the same
room. It seems a waste to devote an entire room to just the compressor
no matter how big it is, but it would probably help the air filter and
longevity of the compressor.
> What I need most is a separate assembly table. I currently use my
> extension and outfeed tables for assembly. Not the best.
I agree. My table saw is integrated into a cabinet with the outfeed
table and side tables. I'm always worried about dropping glue on the
cast iron under the workpiece and not catching it before it rusts. It
would be nice to have a big table with a surface that would make glue
pop off and a hand crank to raise and lower it. I don't have the space
now though.
> So when I add on I'll pull wire for a 60 amp sub. and
> scrap the other two circuits. About the same amount of work to run
> the sub as to run each of those individual circuits.
Over-do the conduit diameter even though it will cost a lot more. It
will make pulling the wire *a lot* easier (damhikt). Buy the separate
big radius curves or bend your own rather than those small 90 degree
fittings. Also, if you cut your own conduit, buy that expensive reamer
thing that reburs the insides of the pipe ends. Otherwise when you
pull the wires, it will rip the insulation and make the pull harder to
do.
Other people here have recommended separate 120 circuits for tools vs
lights. The reasoning is that if a power tool trips a circuit breaker,
the lights won't go out. I agree with this completely. Especially
since my TS is back on 120 now. I'm far more likely to trip the
breaker. So that's two 120 lines. I also bought an 80 gal upright
compressor that runs on 240. That one gets it's own breaker. Same for
the DC. So that's three 240 breakers. We're up to eight positions
which I think is the limit for 60 amp boxes. I'm considering adding an
electric heater to the shop. I would probably put that on it's own 240
circuit also.
For the OP, I would also give a lot of thought to, and spare no expense
for, dust collection from the start. It's always been an after-thought
for me. In the new building, I'm planning to have an elevated wood
floor with removable plywood panels and 2x6 or 2x8 sleepers on the
concrete slab. This will allow me to run the DC and electric through
the floor. With a steel building, you can make the eve height whatever
you want so the loss of headroom would be a non-issue. I also plan on
running separate small diameter pipe for high velocity dust collection
shop-vac style. Then I'd install either one of those GUV things or a
home central vac type thing in the DC room. Oneida (iirc) makes this
mini cyclone for shop vacs now. I'd use that also.
brian
Prometheus wrote:
> On 25 Oct 2006 15:11:13 -0700, "brianlanning" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> Jeez, guys. What are you all building in your shops? Passenger jets?
> I've got 1050 sq ft that I share with a small bathroom, washer, dryer,
> chest freezer, water heater, and furnace- and there's a stairwell
> right in the middle of it. To tell you the truth, it's enough space
> to do most projects in, even with a reasonably complete compliment of
> full-sized tools that are *not* on mobile bases, and the lathes even
> have their own room to boot (part of the 1050 sq ft) It's not like I
> need room to dance in the shop. Might need to use the shed or garage
> for a short time if I was making a full set of kitchen cabinets, but
> that's about it. Ditto for the electrical- even with seperate
> breakers for each major machine, I haven't needed a subpanel yet.
> Just have to wonder if the shop really needs to be bigger in a lot of
> cases, or if it just needs a little rearranging.
What you have is about the size of a four car garage. If I had the
whole three car garage, I'd have enough space, but no separate room for
the DC, compressor, or finishing.
I also work on cars though and I'm thinking about space for a lift.
And it would be nice to have a separate area for pottery and a kiln and
other things like stained glass or sculputre. My 14yo daughter would
spend a lot of time there. Then I start thinking that it would be nice
to have a sparate weight room so I can work out after the kids go to
bed and not worry about the noise. Oh, then I can put in a hottub...
and a separate bathroom so I can just change over there rather than
having to come back to the main house. Then a few months ago my wife
(who worked in an emergency room and is staunchly anti-pool with little
kids around) agreed that a pool would be ok if it were indoors in a
separate building and could be locked up. Then I could swim in the
winter. lol Anyone got a spare million lying around?
brian
If I was starting over again I would first decide exactly what type of
things I wanted to make, build, turn. I'd stick with one area ie.
turning or carving or furniture etc. until I became "expert" at it.
I'd talk to those that I admire that do the same type of work. I'd
pick their brain for advice much as you are doing here. I find a good
mentor. I'd take lessons.
I'd start with the minimum number of tools I could get by with and they
would be the best I could afford. I'd think twice or thrice before
buying a new tool once the basics were bought.
I'd do it for my own pleasure rather than selling at least until my own
and family needs for what I produced was satisfied. I would enter
competitions if available in the field I chose.
Then I might try selling, but on my terms at my prices for quality
work!
For what its worth
Bob
London, Ontario
Bill wrote:
> start all over again in this hobby / business / trade, what mistakes did
> you make the first time around that you'd skip on the second go around?
>
> I'm kind of looking for arrows pointing to where the land mines are.
>
If I was starting over again I would first decide exactly what type of
things I wanted to make, build, turn. I'd stick with one area ie.
turning or carving or furniture etc. until I became "expert" at it.
I'd talk to those that I admire that do the same type of work. I'd
pick their brain for advice much as you are doing here. I find a good
mentor. I'd take lessons.
I'd start with the minimum number of tools I could get by with and they
would be the best I could afford. I'd think twice or thrice before
buying a new tool once the basics were bought.
I'd do it for my own pleasure rather than selling at least until my own
and family needs for what I produced was satisfied. I would enter
competitions if available in the field I chose.
Then I might try selling, but on my terms at my prices for quality
work!
For what its worth
Bob
London, Ontario
Bill wrote:
> start all over again in this hobby / business / trade, what mistakes did
> you make the first time around that you'd skip on the second go around?
>
> I'm kind of looking for arrows pointing to where the land mines are.
>
If I was starting over again I would first decide exactly what type of
things I wanted to make, build, turn. I'd stick with one area ie.
turning or carving or furniture etc. until I became "expert" at it.
I'd talk to those that I admire that do the same type of work. I'd
pick their brain for advice much as you are doing here. I find a good
mentor. I'd take lessons.
I'd start with the minimum number of tools I could get by with and they
would be the best I could afford. I'd think twice or thrice before
buying a new tool once the basics were bought.
I'd do it for my own pleasure rather than selling at least until my own
and family needs for what I produced was satisfied. I would enter
competitions if available in the field I chose.
Then I might try selling, but on my terms at my prices for quality
work!
For what its worth
Bob
London, Ontario
Bill wrote:
> start all over again in this hobby / business / trade, what mistakes did
> you make the first time around that you'd skip on the second go around?
>
> I'm kind of looking for arrows pointing to where the land mines are.
>
If I was starting over again I would first decide exactly what type of
things I wanted to make, build, turn. I'd stick with one area ie.
turning or carving or furniture etc. until I became "expert" at it.
I'd talk to those that I admire that do the same type of work. I'd
pick their brain for advice much as you are doing here. I find a good
mentor. I'd take lessons.
I'd start with the minimum number of tools I could get by with and they
would be the best I could afford. I'd think twice or thrice before
buying a new tool once the basics were bought.
I'd do it for my own pleasure rather than selling at least until my own
and family needs for what I produced was satisfied. I would enter
competitions if available in the field I chose.
Then I might try selling, but on my terms at my prices for quality
work!
For what its worth
Bob
London, Ontario
Bill wrote:
> start all over again in this hobby / business / trade, what mistakes did
> you make the first time around that you'd skip on the second go around?
>
> I'm kind of looking for arrows pointing to where the land mines are.
>
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 15:52:15 +0000, Mike Paulson wrote:
>>start all over again in this hobby / business / trade, what mistakes did
> Books, videos, demonstrations, and symposiums are all
> sources of woodturning knowledge, but private instruction is *BY FAR* the
> best way to mastery. Do yourself a favor, treat yourself to some lessons,
> and maximize the fun and satisfaction from your time spent at the lathe.
>
> -mike paulson, fort collins, co
While I have not yet had any private instruction, I did just recently view
my first video (Woodturning: Fundamentals of Sharpening) from AAW. It was
a good thing to see skilled hands performing this essential skill.
I'll take that back ... I took a class at Woodcraft in using the router.
In that case (and having been an instructor myself) I don't think I got my
money's worth. But there are any number of individuals (including a
couple I know locally) who I'd like to learn from. Although I'll agree
that the education I might get from it would be more than worth the
expense, traveling somewhere in order to pay a high tuition for a week or
even a weekend, just isn't possible for me just yet.
I had high hopes for that router class, but the joints I made (using the
instructors jigs) were better than the ones he made using the same jigs.
Printed material for the class consisted of Shop Notes photocopies and he
touched on too many topics to actually teach any of them ... finally
ending the class a half-hour early so some of the guys could go watch some
game or other.
Even so, I'll be keeping an eye out for a local class from a better
instructor.
Good tip.
Thanks,
Bill
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 21:55:10 -0500, Henry St.Pierre wrote:
>
> What subject did you instruct/teach?
Well, it was unrealated to this forum, but I taught adult HS dropouts (the
PC term is "non-completers") how to use computers in a business setting.
I taught word processing, database and spreadsheet design, operating
system manipulation. I had 480 class hours and I beat up on them.
But any who passed were hireable ... and that was the goal.
Bill
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 18:07:06 +0000, B A R R Y wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> start all over again in this hobby / business / trade, what mistakes
>> did you make the first time around that you'd skip on the second go
>> around?
>>
>>
> Read this, by Mike Dunbar:
>
> <http://www.americanfurnituredsgn.com/Top10UnavTruthsofWoodwrkin.htm>
>
>
> Read #5 over and over... Read it again before applyign a finish. <G>
>
> To relate it to my own experience, money spent on hands-on instruction
> and books related to woodworking, finishing, and sharpening, has
> returned a far better profit than most of the "time and labor saving"
> gadgets I purchased as a beginner.
>
> Luckily, much of the crap was easily sold on eBay.
That page is now a permanent part of the hard-copy manual I am making for
myself. Page one.
I am just now learning (thunk, thunk, thunk ... anyone in there?) about
good tools vs cheaply made tools.
I still think that the best overall strategy includes a mix of top end
tools and barely-adequate tools. And I think that it takes actual shop
experience to know where to shave the corners and where to pay top dollar.
When I came into a LOT of "rough-sawn but worth having" salvage stock
(including 10/4 tamarind) I bought a jointer and a planer ... at HF. Though
miles away from being 'top end', the jointer is more than adequate for my
current, and currently envisioned, uses. But that planer is on the jettison
list because of an inherent design flaw ... the table moves rather than
the head. That makes it effectively impossible to give it larger feed
tables and reduce or eliminate the snipe.
I scraped my knee on that one, but, because it didn't nick me for big
bucks, I didn't shoot my foot off. I now have enough experience that I
will be able to purchase my next one in a reasonably intelligent fashion.
Would I buy HF again? Maybe.
Their nitrile gloves seem to be plenty good enough to protect my hands
from finishes and adhesives. Their 8 pc lathe tool set is (and I HAVE
now bought a few high-end tools) an excellent value for the money. I
would urge new turners to begin there and build out from that starting
point. Their bar clamps work about like brand-name bar clamps of similar
design. Their respirators seem to meet the same standards as others with
the same gubmint ratings.
I doubt if I'll ever buy another of their lathes (I own two)and I am MUCHO
not happy about having to order replacement blades for the planer and the
jointer online.
The old principle still applies ... caveat emptor. That is, let the 'buyer
beware'. Not all HF stuff is of inadequate quality, not everything at
Woodcraft or Rocklers is worth hauling home, either. Sit up straight, look
directly ahead, get rid of that gum and fer cryin' out loud, pay attention!
If someone is a hobbyist I would urge them to go slowly with major tool
acquisitions, taking the time to do careful research. If a business
person, there is no substitute for knowing your business ... all of it.
Bill
On 25 Oct 2006 15:11:13 -0700, "brianlanning" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Frank Boettcher wrote:
>> That's easy. When I built my shop (hobby), I would have made it twice
>> as large
>
>So how big would you make it to start? I'm in a three car garage now
>that I share with a motorcade of bycicles and a lot of yard equipment.
>So really, it's like 2.5 instead of 3. For me, I feel like it's not
>enough space. And considering that I'd like a separate finishing room
>and a separate room for the DC and compressor, what should I aim for?
>4-car garage size? Should I make the steel building taller so I can
>build up inside?
>
>>and immediately installed a 60 amp subpanel.
>
>Agreed. I went with the 100, not for the extra juice, but for the
>extra breaker positions. The flexability of a subpanel makes a big
>difference. And the 100 would allow a 3-phase converter if I really go
>off the deep end.
Jeez, guys. What are you all building in your shops? Passenger jets?
I've got 1050 sq ft that I share with a small bathroom, washer, dryer,
chest freezer, water heater, and furnace- and there's a stairwell
right in the middle of it. To tell you the truth, it's enough space
to do most projects in, even with a reasonably complete compliment of
full-sized tools that are *not* on mobile bases, and the lathes even
have their own room to boot (part of the 1050 sq ft) It's not like I
need room to dance in the shop. Might need to use the shed or garage
for a short time if I was making a full set of kitchen cabinets, but
that's about it. Ditto for the electrical- even with seperate
breakers for each major machine, I haven't needed a subpanel yet.
Just have to wonder if the shop really needs to be bigger in a lot of
cases, or if it just needs a little rearranging.
"Mike" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Here's one though: We decided that buying rough cut lumber beat the
> pants off of dealing with the garbage available at HD/Lowes, and
> purchased a 6" Jet jointer and a planer. A year and a half later, I'm
> wishing that we'd gone with an 8" jointer, with longer tables. (Why
> does it seem like most of the boards we end up with are 6.5 or 7 inches
> wide?!?!)
Same reason that if you had the 8" your boards would be 8.5" wide.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 09:15:40 -0500, Frank Boettcher
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 04:29:30 -0500, Prometheus
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On 25 Oct 2006 15:11:13 -0700, "brianlanning" <[email protected]>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Frank Boettcher wrote:
>>>> That's easy. When I built my shop (hobby), I would have made it twice
>>>> as large
>>>
>>>So how big would you make it to start? I'm in a three car garage now
>>>that I share with a motorcade of bycicles and a lot of yard equipment.
>>>So really, it's like 2.5 instead of 3. For me, I feel like it's not
>>>enough space. And considering that I'd like a separate finishing room
>>>and a separate room for the DC and compressor, what should I aim for?
>>>4-car garage size? Should I make the steel building taller so I can
>>>build up inside?
>>>
>>>>and immediately installed a 60 amp subpanel.
>>>
>>>Agreed. I went with the 100, not for the extra juice, but for the
>>>extra breaker positions. The flexability of a subpanel makes a big
>>>difference. And the 100 would allow a 3-phase converter if I really go
>>>off the deep end.
>>
>>Jeez, guys. What are you all building in your shops? Passenger jets?
>>I've got 1050 sq ft that I share with a small bathroom, washer, dryer,
>>chest freezer, water heater, and furnace- and there's a stairwell
>>right in the middle of it. To tell you the truth, it's enough space
>>to do most projects in, even with a reasonably complete compliment of
>>full-sized tools that are *not* on mobile bases, and the lathes even
>>have their own room to boot (part of the 1050 sq ft) It's not like I
>>need room to dance in the shop. Might need to use the shed or garage
>>for a short time if I was making a full set of kitchen cabinets, but
>>that's about it.
>
>
>
> Ditto for the electrical- even with seperate
>>breakers for each major machine, I haven't needed a subpanel yet.
>
>The issue in my case is distance from the house main panel to the
>point of use in the shop. About 150' of wire per circuit. Much
>better to run one large wire set and avoid multiples and the voltage
>drops associated with long runs. It would have been better, more cost
>effective to start with the sub panel, and certainly less labor
>crawling through the attic every time I need a new circuit.
Now that makes some sense. I guess I'm spoiled by having the circut
breaker for the house on one wall of the shop.
>>Just have to wonder if the shop really needs to be bigger in a lot of
>>cases, or if it just needs a little rearranging.
>
>1000 OK. 800 probably OK. 400 all the rearranging in the world isn't
>going to get me there.
Yep. I was poking fun at the guys who say [ I've got a 4,000 square
foot shop, but if I'd have been thinking ahead, I'd have made it
12,000 feet, because there just isn't enough room! ]
400 square feet is a little tight, but you can still do some good work
in a space that size.
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 05:45:28 -0000, "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:
>start all over again in this hobby / business / trade, what mistakes did
>you make the first time around that you'd skip on the second go around?
>
>I'm kind of looking for arrows pointing to where the land mines are.
>
>I think I'd skip HF for my mainstay tools EXCEPT where I had carefully
>specced the exact tool I needed to buy and HF had a tool that EXACTLY met
>that spec or exceeded it. I just bought a Milwaukee 5625-29 router and
>it's a real eye-opener. Can't get anything like this at HF.
>
>I also think I'd downplay my willingness to do custom work and put more
>effort into building inventory to sell from.
>
>And I'd also give more thought to cost tracking so I'd be collecting
>needed data from day one.
>
>I find that I have a LOT of pen blanks cut from unremarkable wood. Skip
>that ... anything that isn't eye candy is firewood.
>
>I've got others ... but I'd like to hear from you.
>
>Bill
That's easy. When I built my shop (hobby), I would have made it twice
as large and immediately installed a 60 amp subpanel.
Frank
"efgh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:bUK%g.71723$E67.13449@clgrps13...
>
> "Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 05:45:28 -0000, "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>start all over again in this hobby / business / trade, what mistakes did
>>>you make the first time around that you'd skip on the second go around?
>>>
>>>I'm kind of looking for arrows pointing to where the land mines are.
>>>
>>>I think I'd skip HF for my mainstay tools EXCEPT where I had carefully
>>>specced the exact tool I needed to buy and HF had a tool that EXACTLY met
>>>that spec or exceeded it. I just bought a Milwaukee 5625-29 router and
>>>it's a real eye-opener. Can't get anything like this at HF.
>>>
>>>I also think I'd downplay my willingness to do custom work and put more
>>>effort into building inventory to sell from.
>>>
>>>And I'd also give more thought to cost tracking so I'd be collecting
>>>needed data from day one.
>>>
>>>I find that I have a LOT of pen blanks cut from unremarkable wood. Skip
>>>that ... anything that isn't eye candy is firewood.
>>>
>>>I've got others ... but I'd like to hear from you.
>>>
>>>Bill
>>
>>
>> That's easy. When I built my shop (hobby), I would have made it twice
>> as large and immediately installed a 60 amp subpanel.
>>
>> Frank
>
> And I bet if you had built twice as big, you'd still wish you had more
> room. :)
My first shop was 480 sq.ft. Second one is 1060 sq.ft. Wish I had 2500.
:-(
Max
--
Want change? Vote out the incumbents.
"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 15:52:15 +0000, Mike Paulson wrote:
>>>start all over again in this hobby / business / trade, what mistakes
>>>did
>> Books, videos, demonstrations, and symposiums are all
>> sources of woodturning knowledge, but private instruction is *BY FAR*
>> the best way to mastery. Do yourself a favor, treat yourself to some
>> lessons, and maximize the fun and satisfaction from your time spent
>> at the lathe.
>>
>> -mike paulson, fort collins, co
>
> While I have not yet had any private instruction, I did just recently
> view my first video (Woodturning: Fundamentals of Sharpening) from
> AAW. It was a good thing to see skilled hands performing this
> essential skill.
>
> I'll take that back ... I took a class at Woodcraft in using the
> router. In that case (and having been an instructor myself) I don't
> think I got my money's worth. But there are any number of individuals
> (including a couple I know locally) who I'd like to learn from.
> Although I'll agree that the education I might get from it would be
> more than worth the expense, traveling somewhere in order to pay a
> high tuition for a week or even a weekend, just isn't possible for me
> just yet.
>
> I had high hopes for that router class, but the joints I made (using
> the instructors jigs) were better than the ones he made using the same
> jigs. Printed material for the class consisted of Shop Notes
> photocopies and he touched on too many topics to actually teach any of
> them ... finally ending the class a half-hour early so some of the
> guys could go watch some game or other.
>
> Even so, I'll be keeping an eye out for a local class from a better
> instructor.
>
> Good tip.
>
> Thanks,
> Bill
>
What subject did you instruct/teach?
"Mike" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> It's easy to say that I would have not purchased a small Craftsman
> table saw 7 years ago, and instead saved up for a really nice table
> saw. Then again, 7 years ago I had no idea that I'd be so into
> woodworking years down the road - so maybe that $200 saw shouldn't be
> considered a mistake.
Not a mistake at all. I did the same thing, not knowing if I had the talent
to do reasonably decent woodwork; turns out I can do OK. I used that saw
for two years and gave it away and bought a Delta contractors saw.
I do regret buying that Craftsman router though. I've not bought a cheap
tool since so it was a lesson learned.
"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 05:45:28 -0000, "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>start all over again in this hobby / business / trade, what mistakes did
>>you make the first time around that you'd skip on the second go around?
>>
>>I'm kind of looking for arrows pointing to where the land mines are.
>>
>>I think I'd skip HF for my mainstay tools EXCEPT where I had carefully
>>specced the exact tool I needed to buy and HF had a tool that EXACTLY met
>>that spec or exceeded it. I just bought a Milwaukee 5625-29 router and
>>it's a real eye-opener. Can't get anything like this at HF.
>>
>>I also think I'd downplay my willingness to do custom work and put more
>>effort into building inventory to sell from.
>>
>>And I'd also give more thought to cost tracking so I'd be collecting
>>needed data from day one.
>>
>>I find that I have a LOT of pen blanks cut from unremarkable wood. Skip
>>that ... anything that isn't eye candy is firewood.
>>
>>I've got others ... but I'd like to hear from you.
>>
>>Bill
>
>
> That's easy. When I built my shop (hobby), I would have made it twice
> as large and immediately installed a 60 amp subpanel.
>
> Frank
And I bet if you had built twice as big, you'd still wish you had more room.
:)
On 25 Oct 2006 15:11:13 -0700, "brianlanning" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Frank Boettcher wrote:
>> That's easy. When I built my shop (hobby), I would have made it twice
>> as large
>
>So how big would you make it to start? I'm in a three car garage now
>that I share with a motorcade of bycicles and a lot of yard equipment.
>So really, it's like 2.5 instead of 3. For me, I feel like it's not
>enough space. And considering that I'd like a separate finishing room
>and a separate room for the DC and compressor, what should I aim for?
>4-car garage size? Should I make the steel building taller so I can
>build up inside?
My current is just under 400 sq.ft., dedicated only to woodworking.
I did a layout that works for me at 1000 sq.ft. and was planning to
move and build same. Katrina changed those plans, so I am now
contemplating staying put and doubling the current to 800 feet which
is all I can get on the lot without removing some very established
native trees (that provide great shade for the shop).
The 1000 ft layout included a finishing booth, but with swing away
walls. I'm not sure I can get that in the 800 ft layout but going to
try, however both have separate rooms or actually closets for an air
compressor and a cyclone dust collector.
What I need most is a separate assembly table. I currently use my
extension and outfeed tables for assembly. Not the best.
>
>>and immediately installed a 60 amp subpanel.
>
>Agreed. I went with the 100, not for the extra juice, but for the
>extra breaker positions. The flexability of a subpanel makes a big
>difference. And the 100 would allow a 3-phase converter if I really go
>off the deep end.
That was my biggest mistake. When I started I only ran one 120V
circuit from the house main and split it to two circuits in the shop.
I had no 220V tools. When I added them I ran another circuit to
handle them, again from the house main. Worked OK, I'm normally a one
man shop. But with an air compressor and dust collector kicking on on
demand I'll need more. Plus I like to edge joint/trim leaving both
tools running while I do so, sometimes with a friend doing one of the
operations. So when I add on I'll pull wire for a 60 amp sub. and
scrap the other two circuits. About the same amount of work to run
the sub as to run each of those individual circuits.
Frank
>
>brian
Bill wrote:
> start all over again in this hobby / business / trade, what mistakes did
> you make the first time around that you'd skip on the second go around?
>
Read this, by Mike Dunbar:
<http://www.americanfurnituredsgn.com/Top10UnavTruthsofWoodwrkin.htm>
Read #5 over and over... Read it again before applyign a finish. <G>
To relate it to my own experience, money spent on hands-on instruction
and books related to woodworking, finishing, and sharpening, has
returned a far better profit than most of the "time and labor saving"
gadgets I purchased as a beginner.
Luckily, much of the crap was easily sold on eBay.
On 25 Oct 2006 06:14:36 -0700, "Mike" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Bill wrote:
>> start all over again in this hobby / business / trade, what mistakes did
>> you make the first time around that you'd skip on the second go around?
>>
>
>It's easy to say that I would have not purchased a small Craftsman
>table saw 7 years ago, and instead saved up for a really nice table
>saw. Then again, 7 years ago I had no idea that I'd be so into
>woodworking years down the road - so maybe that $200 saw shouldn't be
>considered a mistake.
>
>Here's one though: We decided that buying rough cut lumber beat the
>pants off of dealing with the garbage available at HD/Lowes, and
>purchased a 6" Jet jointer and a planer. A year and a half later, I'm
>wishing that we'd gone with an 8" jointer, with longer tables. (Why
>does it seem like most of the boards we end up with are 6.5 or 7 inches
>wide?!?!)
>
>Mike
And when you have that 8" jointer, it's remarkable how many nice
boards are wider than that. Now, if only I'd have bought that 15"
Northfield....
It never ends.
Back the what the OP said, I'm not sure (as a hobbyist) I would have
done anything different. Maybe I could have avoided a few turkeys
masquerading as tools, but for the most part it's been a learning
experience. An education costs money. No way around that.
BTW, in the beginning, all my tools were Craftsman. Not all were bad.
The floor standing ones were good, the hand held ones (power) were/are
uniformly bad. In every case they provided a learning experience.
Not only in how to use it but also what to look for in a better
example of it's kind.
On 26 Oct 2006 09:22:05 -0700, "brianlanning" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Frank Boettcher wrote:
>> On 25 Oct 2006 15:11:13 -0700, "brianlanning" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>> My current is just under 400 sq.ft., dedicated only to woodworking.
>> I did a layout that works for me at 1000 sq.ft. and was planning to
>> move and build same. Katrina changed those plans, so I am now
>> contemplating staying put and doubling the current to 800 feet which
>> is all I can get on the lot without removing some very established
>> native trees (that provide great shade for the shop).
>
>We haven't bought the lot yet, so the shop plans (and long term plans
>for a couple other extra buildings) are definitly factored in to the
>house shopping.
>
>
>> The 1000 ft layout included a finishing booth, but with swing away
>> walls.
>
>That's interesting. I was thinking that I would try to seal the
>finishing room in an attempt to keep out as much dust as possible. The
>swing away walls will make that tough. On the other hand, you'd get
>that space for other purposes if you need it. There's also the problem
>of getting big pieces in and out of the finishing room.
>
Not enough space for a completely separate room. Wish there was.
Dust will be an issue. Still going to have to clean up the shop and
run the air cleaners for a while before spraying. But better than
what I have now. The back yard in good weather and taking the whole
shop out of service to apply a finish schedule in bad weather or in
the fall when the leaves are dropping. And no exhausting or
containment of overspray in the shop.
>
>>I'm not sure I can get that in the 800 ft layout but going to
>> try, however both have separate rooms or actually closets for an air
>> compressor and a cyclone dust collector.
>
>Separate the compressor and DC? I had planned to put them in the same
>room. It seems a waste to devote an entire room to just the compressor
>no matter how big it is, but it would probably help the air filter and
>longevity of the compressor.
On the addition, on either side of a drive in door there is a short
(5') dead corner. Going to make each a closet that will house the two
items. Sound and dust containment
>
>> What I need most is a separate assembly table. I currently use my
>> extension and outfeed tables for assembly. Not the best.
>
>I agree. My table saw is integrated into a cabinet with the outfeed
>table and side tables. I'm always worried about dropping glue on the
>cast iron under the workpiece and not catching it before it rusts. It
>would be nice to have a big table with a surface that would make glue
>pop off and a hand crank to raise and lower it. I don't have the space
>now though.
>
>
>> So when I add on I'll pull wire for a 60 amp sub. and
>> scrap the other two circuits. About the same amount of work to run
>> the sub as to run each of those individual circuits.
>
>Over-do the conduit diameter even though it will cost a lot more. It
>will make pulling the wire *a lot* easier (damhikt). Buy the separate
>big radius curves or bend your own rather than those small 90 degree
>fittings. Also, if you cut your own conduit, buy that expensive reamer
>thing that reburs the insides of the pipe ends. Otherwise when you
>pull the wires, it will rip the insulation and make the pull harder to
>do.
The run is considered dry, protected, and isolated from contact so I'm
considering Type-SER cable, however, would need to go to 4/3 wg to get
the 60 amps. If I pull through conduit, I can go to #6 instead of #4.
SER would be easier, I think.
>
>Other people here have recommended separate 120 circuits for tools vs
>lights. The reasoning is that if a power tool trips a circuit breaker,
>the lights won't go out. I agree with this completely. Especially
>since my TS is back on 120 now. I'm far more likely to trip the
>breaker. So that's two 120 lines. I also bought an 80 gal upright
>compressor that runs on 240. That one gets it's own breaker. Same for
>the DC. So that's three 240 breakers. We're up to eight positions
>which I think is the limit for 60 amp boxes. I'm considering adding an
>electric heater to the shop. I would probably put that on it's own 240
>circuit also.
>
>For the OP, I would also give a lot of thought to, and spare no expense
>for, dust collection from the start. It's always been an after-thought
>for me. In the new building, I'm planning to have an elevated wood
>floor with removable plywood panels and 2x6 or 2x8 sleepers on the
>concrete slab. This will allow me to run the DC and electric through
>the floor. With a steel building, you can make the eve height whatever
>you want so the loss of headroom would be a non-issue. I also plan on
>running separate small diameter pipe for high velocity dust collection
>shop-vac style. Then I'd install either one of those GUV things or a
>home central vac type thing in the DC room. Oneida (iirc) makes this
>mini cyclone for shop vacs now. I'd use that also.
>
>brian
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 04:29:30 -0500, Prometheus
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On 25 Oct 2006 15:11:13 -0700, "brianlanning" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>Frank Boettcher wrote:
>>> That's easy. When I built my shop (hobby), I would have made it twice
>>> as large
>>
>>So how big would you make it to start? I'm in a three car garage now
>>that I share with a motorcade of bycicles and a lot of yard equipment.
>>So really, it's like 2.5 instead of 3. For me, I feel like it's not
>>enough space. And considering that I'd like a separate finishing room
>>and a separate room for the DC and compressor, what should I aim for?
>>4-car garage size? Should I make the steel building taller so I can
>>build up inside?
>>
>>>and immediately installed a 60 amp subpanel.
>>
>>Agreed. I went with the 100, not for the extra juice, but for the
>>extra breaker positions. The flexability of a subpanel makes a big
>>difference. And the 100 would allow a 3-phase converter if I really go
>>off the deep end.
>
>Jeez, guys. What are you all building in your shops? Passenger jets?
>I've got 1050 sq ft that I share with a small bathroom, washer, dryer,
>chest freezer, water heater, and furnace- and there's a stairwell
>right in the middle of it. To tell you the truth, it's enough space
>to do most projects in, even with a reasonably complete compliment of
>full-sized tools that are *not* on mobile bases, and the lathes even
>have their own room to boot (part of the 1050 sq ft) It's not like I
>need room to dance in the shop. Might need to use the shed or garage
>for a short time if I was making a full set of kitchen cabinets, but
>that's about it.
Ditto for the electrical- even with seperate
>breakers for each major machine, I haven't needed a subpanel yet.
The issue in my case is distance from the house main panel to the
point of use in the shop. About 150' of wire per circuit. Much
better to run one large wire set and avoid multiples and the voltage
drops associated with long runs. It would have been better, more cost
effective to start with the sub panel, and certainly less labor
crawling through the attic every time I need a new circuit.
>
>Just have to wonder if the shop really needs to be bigger in a lot of
>cases, or if it just needs a little rearranging.
1000 OK. 800 probably OK. 400 all the rearranging in the world isn't
going to get me there.
Frank
"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> start all over again in this hobby / business / trade, what mistakes did
> you make the first time around that you'd skip on the second go around?
>
> I'm kind of looking for arrows pointing to where the land mines are.
>
> I think I'd skip HF for my mainstay tools EXCEPT where I had carefully
> specced the exact tool I needed to buy and HF had a tool that EXACTLY met
> that spec or exceeded it. I just bought a Milwaukee 5625-29 router and
> it's a real eye-opener. Can't get anything like this at HF.
>
> I also think I'd downplay my willingness to do custom work and put more
> effort into building inventory to sell from.
>
> And I'd also give more thought to cost tracking so I'd be collecting
> needed data from day one.
>
> I find that I have a LOT of pen blanks cut from unremarkable wood. Skip
> that ... anything that isn't eye candy is firewood.
>
> I've got others ... but I'd like to hear from you.
>
I agree with you about HF, but not about custom work. What fun is building
inventory? It is the challenge of doing something I haven't done before
that is enjoyable.
On 26 Oct 2006 09:45:42 -0700, "brianlanning" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>What you have is about the size of a four car garage. If I had the
>whole three car garage, I'd have enough space, but no separate room for
>the DC, compressor, or finishing.
>
>I also work on cars though and I'm thinking about space for a lift.
>And it would be nice to have a separate area for pottery and a kiln and
>other things like stained glass or sculputre. My 14yo daughter would
>spend a lot of time there. Then I start thinking that it would be nice
>to have a sparate weight room so I can work out after the kids go to
>bed and not worry about the noise. Oh, then I can put in a hottub...
>and a separate bathroom so I can just change over there rather than
>having to come back to the main house. Then a few months ago my wife
>(who worked in an emergency room and is staunchly anti-pool with little
>kids around) agreed that a pool would be ok if it were indoors in a
>separate building and could be locked up. Then I could swim in the
>winter. lol Anyone got a spare million lying around?
Aha! The plot thickens. I guess I can't argue with that, as I've
been contemplating expanding the shed so I can start a machine shop to
complement the wood shop. Start adding multiple uses in, then I can
see the value of a giant building. I just have this persistant image
of people making pukey ducks in aircraft hangers when someone claims
they need over 2000 sq feet for a woodworking hobby. (A business is,
of course, a different story altogether)