DeWalt News

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>>
>> This is really old news about the batteries. I don't remember the
>> exculpatory language on their boxes, but they make it plain that the
>> tool could hit a 20V output occasionally.
>>
>> I had a long talk with the rep that sold DeWalt for about 5 years when I
>> ran into him at HD, and he told me one of the reasons he left DeWalt/BD
>> was that he was tired of being screamed at for phony advertising from
>> not only the people that bought the tools but the vendors as well. He
>> also told me how many people tested the batteries and found that they
>> operated with the same output as their 18V tools, just did it longer.
>>
>> From 2011:
>>
>> http://www.coptool.com/dewalt-20v-max-cordless-tools-the-new-way-to-say-18v/
>>
>> http://www.finehomebuilding.com/item/17628/new-dewalt-cordless-in-a-world-of-18v-tools-why-go-20v-max
>>
>> http://goo.gl/xncWuc
>>
>> I remember how pissed off my contractor buddies were because there were
>> actual 20 and 24 volt tools out there, not 18s masquerading as 20V. A
>> great marketing coup for DeWalt as most people never read the packaging
>> or did any research on the new DeWalt schemes, never looked at an
>> article and never used the internet. Since they paid a premium for the
>> tools and the new side by side battery configuration wasn't compatible
>> with the rest of their 18V DeWalt tools, the took
> them back.
>>
>> Although I think DW was banking on the "Tim Taylor effect" of more power
>> is good (and it certainly has worked well for them!), they said we as
>> consumers were protected from our own weak minded confusion by their
>> false labels. I was happy to see that they lied for my benefit as I
>> thought they were being intentionally deceptive. I was pleased to hear
>> that corporate America was looking out for me.
>>
>> I feel that if they will lie about something that simple, they will lie
>> about other things. Unless I got a steal on a DeWalt tool, I wouldn't
>> touch them. My personal experience with them many years ago was great,
>> but has been so/so over the past few years, so they aren't anything I
>> look at for tool purchase/replacement.
>>
>> I doubt that "American made" will mean much as far as quality goes as
>> manufacturing skills have left us long ago. The hope would be that the
>> complicated pieces and parts for the tools would be made somewhere else
>> where they have the technology and quality control to make them and ship
>> them here for use. Then maybe, maybe they could train people to screw
>> the pieces together.
>>
>> Guess we'll see.
>
> I've got a question for you. How would YOU write an "honest label" for
> a Dewalt power tool that made it absolutely crystal clear that (a) it
> was an 18v tool and (b) there was no way to make the tool run in any
> useful manner on the batteries made for the previous series of 18v
> dewalt tools.

Ummmmm, 18 volt Lithium Ion

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
>>
>> On Wed, 19 Aug 2015 23:57:20 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Unless I got a steal on a DeWalt tool, I wouldn't touch them. My
>>> personal experience with them many years ago was great, but has been
>>> so/so over the past few years, so they aren't anything I look at for tool
>>> purchase/replacement.
>>>
>>> I doubt that "American made" will mean much as far as quality goes as
>>> manufacturing skills have left us long ago. The hope would be that the
>>> complicated pieces and parts for the tools would be made somewhere else
>>> where they have the technology and quality control to make them and
>>> ship them here for use. Then maybe, maybe they could train people to
>>> screw the pieces together.
>>>
>>> Guess we'll see.
>>>
>>> Robert
>>
>> The US has the ability to make a quality tool, but between Marketing
>> and Accounting, hitting a low price point with high volume is more
>> important. There was a time that Black & Decker meant quality too,
>> now they are cheapened for the mass market, not the skilled craftsman.
>> DeWalt is just a half step above that in yellow.
>>
>> I do have two DeWalt tools, a sander and miter saw. Both are
>> serviceable for the price, but there are better out there.
>
> Most of my deWalt tools have taken 15 years of beating. I do have some
> newer ones as I recently had a huge increase in disposable income and
> I'm looking to complete my 18v collection before they're discontinued.

No wonder you are so defensive. And judging by what you display that you
do with those tools it is no wonder that they have lasted 15 years. I
have a 30 year old B&D belt sander, the belt that is on it is 25 years old.

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Leon" wrote:
>
>> which failed before which?
> ----------------------------------------------------
> The battery had to fail by definition.
>
> No circuit protective devices were allowed.
>
> You should have seen the test to distruction when a large
> cranking motor for a large Cummins was bolted down in a
> large bench vice cranking locking the roter and stator
> together.
>
> A pair of 8D batteries were connected to the cranked motor
> via a 400 amp knife switch that was nailed to the the floor.
>
> The weldinq cable was doing a St. Vitas dance while the
> test was in progress.

I bet that was pretty interesting. Did the motor glow red? I have seen
the old style aluminum jumper cables dance when jumping a vehicle. Funny
and scary. Copper jumping is another story.

"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 5:01:51 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>> The US has the ability to make a quality tool, but between Marketing
>> and Accounting, hitting a low price point with high volume is more
>> important. There was a time that Black & Decker meant quality too,
>> now they are cheapened for the mass market, not the skilled craftsman.
>> DeWalt is just a half step above that in yellow.
>
> Well said. I remember going into the trades back in the early 70s, and
> it was a different world. There were NO foreign tools on the job.
> Porter Cable was king, and they made a fine grade of professional tools.
> They had some competition with the industrial line of Black and Decker
> (excellent tools, available only through a professional jobber), Millers
> Falls, the top line of Skil, and from a small company that made drills
> and the original Sawzall, Milwaukee. They were the kings of the job site
> as they cost a lot, but they lasted for years on site, and were
> rebuildable. I still have my Milwaukee Hole Shooter purchased in '76,
> and although it has had many cords, a few sets of brushes and a trigger
> or two, it still works! My last Milwaukee circular saw was rebuilt
> (bearings, brushes, triggers, cords) than I remember, and it finally had
> so many things wrong they couldn't get all the parts. My Porter Cable
> circular saw (346C) runs to this day. It is so old you have to load the
> grease cup every few days when you are using it.
>
> These were fine tools, engineered for professionals that put them to work
> all day long. I didn't cry about spending money on them; I dutifully
> waited until I could afford them as I knew they were a good investment in
> a quality tool. My last American made tools to do that for me are my
> Bosch router, my Bosch circular saw, and my Sioux circular
> sander/polisher. All of those models are made somewhere else now,
> somewhere other than here.
>
> So I know it can be done. ANYPLACE that can make a tool that will serve
> on the job for 30 years or more knows their stuff, and that used to be
> us. I just don't think there is that kind of desire for quality or the
> desire to make it by a manufacturer. "Good enough" is the manufacturing
> standard of the day, and I have adjusted my expectations accordingly.
>
> I think it odd to see foreign names on the tools being touted so highly.
> Thinking back on the old tools when I was reading this thread, I remember
> back in the early 70s there were NO foreign tools allowed. Period. If
> you hauled it out on site, you were warned to put it up or it got
> smashed. I live in "Military City USA" where we has at one time 8 military bases.
>
> So there were no Japanese tools. There were no German tools. There were
> no Italian tools. Thinking back, WWII was only about 25 - 27 years past
> us, and that wasn't far enough for the experienced hands on the job.
> Some of the guys I worked with weren't even 50, and they served in WWII,
> so they thought it disrespectful and disloyal to support our old enemies
> in any way. The local unions banished all foreign made tools from the
> jobs, period, no exceptions. We used American only and were damn proud of it.
>>
>> I do have two DeWalt tools, a sander and miter saw. Both are
>> serviceable for the price, but there are better out there.
>
> I like their 10" miter saw, and have a few other DeWalts and agree with
> your statement. No bad, but I quit seeing too many DeWalt products on
> the job for a real simple reason: they don't last well for site use.
> Their drills are still pretty good, and since they are now priced around
> the Ryobis, are probably a pretty good deal, as they now have the same
> warranty as the Ryobi products. I have never had a saw or drill from
> DeWalt last longer than 3 years, so I think their warranty reflects their
> product confidence. Hopefully, they would last a homeowner longer than
> that since I probably use saws and drills in a week more than some do in a year.
>
> Guess we will see what happens to the new made in America line. I have
> buddies that will buy those tools simply because they have that sticker.
> When I had three DW recips saws in a row fail in one week, a drill last
> about 2 years (one year warranty at that time) and had to return other DW
> tools simply due to poor quality of fit/finish/performance, that did it for me.
>
> Robert

I remember when Made in America meant a standard of quality. . Now it
simply means where it is built.

>DeWALT Focuses on “Made in the USA”

I don't have a cordless DeWalt anything.

Of the few cordless tools I have owned, I have had mixed success.
A life of 2-3 years for a battery pack at current replacement prices
($80+) doesn't cut it for me.

My Ryobi cordless weed trimmer and mower lasted over ten years before
needing a battery replacement. I got 15 years out of the trimmer and
still going with the cordless mower at over 20 years, both with one
battery replacement. My B&D trimmer came with two batteries and is
dying after 4-5 years. BD says to keep the batteries plugged in at all
times but only gives you one charger. My Makita handheld blower/vac
battery died year 2. Got a rebuildt replacement is on year 3 and
showing signs of end of life.

I was gifted a DeWalt corded drill [D21002] to use in a mount for
several projects but this model has no trigger lock-on. So, it is
still sitting new in the box.

I own a DeWalt scrollsaw with DeWalt attachments that is a joy to use.

As far as DeWalt goes, they're corded tools have worked fine for my
uses. I haven't tried their cordless and am a bit cordless-shy from
the trouble I have had and seen from friends and family with any brand
of cordless. The only successful cordless tool I have and still have,
is a Milwaukee cordless screw driver still going strong after 20 years
with only one battery replacement.

Just my 2 cents on DeWalt and cordless.

Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
> Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>> [email protected] says...
>>>>
>>>> This is really old news about the batteries. I don't remember the
>>>> exculpatory language on their boxes, but they make it plain that the
>>>> tool could hit a 20V output occasionally.
>>>>
>>>> I had a long talk with the rep that sold DeWalt for about 5 years when I
>>>> ran into him at HD, and he told me one of the reasons he left DeWalt/BD
>>>> was that he was tired of being screamed at for phony advertising from
>>>> not only the people that bought the tools but the vendors as well. He
>>>> also told me how many people tested the batteries and found that they
>>>> operated with the same output as their 18V tools, just did it longer.
>>>>
>>>> From 2011:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.coptool.com/dewalt-20v-max-cordless-tools-the-new-way-to-say-18v/
>>>>
>>>> http://www.finehomebuilding.com/item/17628/new-dewalt-cordless-in-a-world-of-18v-tools-why-go-20v-max
>>>>
>>>> http://goo.gl/xncWuc
>>>>
>>>> I remember how pissed off my contractor buddies were because there were
>>>> actual 20 and 24 volt tools out there, not 18s masquerading as 20V. A
>>>> great marketing coup for DeWalt as most people never read the packaging
>>>> or did any research on the new DeWalt schemes, never looked at an
>>>> article and never used the internet. Since they paid a premium for the
>>>> tools and the new side by side battery configuration wasn't compatible
>>>> with the rest of their 18V DeWalt tools, the took
>>> them back.
>>>>
>>>> Although I think DW was banking on the "Tim Taylor effect" of more power
>>>> is good (and it certainly has worked well for them!), they said we as
>>>> consumers were protected from our own weak minded confusion by their
>>>> false labels. I was happy to see that they lied for my benefit as I
>>>> thought they were being intentionally deceptive. I was pleased to hear
>>>> that corporate America was looking out for me.
>>>>
>>>> I feel that if they will lie about something that simple, they will lie
>>>> about other things. Unless I got a steal on a DeWalt tool, I wouldn't
>>>> touch them. My personal experience with them many years ago was great,
>>>> but has been so/so over the past few years, so they aren't anything I
>>>> look at for tool purchase/replacement.
>>>>
>>>> I doubt that "American made" will mean much as far as quality goes as
>>>> manufacturing skills have left us long ago. The hope would be that the
>>>> complicated pieces and parts for the tools would be made somewhere else
>>>> where they have the technology and quality control to make them and ship
>>>> them here for use. Then maybe, maybe they could train people to screw
>>>> the pieces together.
>>>>
>>>> Guess we'll see.
>>>
>>> I've got a question for you. How would YOU write an "honest label" for
>>> a Dewalt power tool that made it absolutely crystal clear that (a) it
>>> was an 18v tool and (b) there was no way to make the tool run in any
>>> useful manner on the batteries made for the previous series of 18v
>>> dewalt tools.
>>
>> Ummmmm, 18 volt Lithium Ion
>
> And just one more thing, there is no reason that an 18 volt battery of a
> different chemical make up should not work.
> Festool allows you to use any same shape battery, equal or lower voltage
> battery, or different chemical make up battery in their cordless tools.
> Their Li-ion charger will charge any same shape, regardless of chemical
> make up, battery.

Any same shape battery. Not different shape.

Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> [email protected] says...
>>>
>>> This is really old news about the batteries. I don't remember the
>>> exculpatory language on their boxes, but they make it plain that the
>>> tool could hit a 20V output occasionally.
>>>
>>> I had a long talk with the rep that sold DeWalt for about 5 years when I
>>> ran into him at HD, and he told me one of the reasons he left DeWalt/BD
>>> was that he was tired of being screamed at for phony advertising from
>>> not only the people that bought the tools but the vendors as well. He
>>> also told me how many people tested the batteries and found that they
>>> operated with the same output as their 18V tools, just did it longer.
>>>
>>> From 2011:
>>>
>>> http://www.coptool.com/dewalt-20v-max-cordless-tools-the-new-way-to-say-18v/
>>>
>>> http://www.finehomebuilding.com/item/17628/new-dewalt-cordless-in-a-world-of-18v-tools-why-go-20v-max
>>>
>>> http://goo.gl/xncWuc
>>>
>>> I remember how pissed off my contractor buddies were because there were
>>> actual 20 and 24 volt tools out there, not 18s masquerading as 20V. A
>>> great marketing coup for DeWalt as most people never read the packaging
>>> or did any research on the new DeWalt schemes, never looked at an
>>> article and never used the internet. Since they paid a premium for the
>>> tools and the new side by side battery configuration wasn't compatible
>>> with the rest of their 18V DeWalt tools, the took
>> them back.
>>>
>>> Although I think DW was banking on the "Tim Taylor effect" of more power
>>> is good (and it certainly has worked well for them!), they said we as
>>> consumers were protected from our own weak minded confusion by their
>>> false labels. I was happy to see that they lied for my benefit as I
>>> thought they were being intentionally deceptive. I was pleased to hear
>>> that corporate America was looking out for me.
>>>
>>> I feel that if they will lie about something that simple, they will lie
>>> about other things. Unless I got a steal on a DeWalt tool, I wouldn't
>>> touch them. My personal experience with them many years ago was great,
>>> but has been so/so over the past few years, so they aren't anything I
>>> look at for tool purchase/replacement.
>>>
>>> I doubt that "American made" will mean much as far as quality goes as
>>> manufacturing skills have left us long ago. The hope would be that the
>>> complicated pieces and parts for the tools would be made somewhere else
>>> where they have the technology and quality control to make them and ship
>>> them here for use. Then maybe, maybe they could train people to screw
>>> the pieces together.
>>>
>>> Guess we'll see.
>>
>> I've got a question for you. How would YOU write an "honest label" for
>> a Dewalt power tool that made it absolutely crystal clear that (a) it
>> was an 18v tool and (b) there was no way to make the tool run in any
>> useful manner on the batteries made for the previous series of 18v
>> dewalt tools.
>
> Ummmmm, 18 volt Lithium Ion

And just one more thing, there is no reason that an 18 volt battery of a
different chemical make up should not work.
Festool allows you to use any same shape battery, equal or lower voltage
battery, or different chemical make up battery in their cordless tools.
Their Li-ion charger will charge any same shape, regardless of chemical
make up, battery.

This is really old news about the batteries. I don't remember the exculpat=
ory language on their boxes, but they make it plain that the tool could hit=
a 20V output occasionally.=20

I had a long talk with the rep that sold DeWalt for about 5 years when I ra=
n into him at HD, and he told me one of the reasons he left DeWalt/BD was t=
hat he was tired of being screamed at for phony advertising from not only t=
he people that bought the tools but the vendors as well. He also told me h=
ow many people tested the batteries and found that they operated with the s=
ame output as their 18V tools, just did it longer.

From 2011:

http://www.coptool.com/dewalt-20v-max-cordless-tools-the-new-way-to-say-18v=
/

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/item/17628/new-dewalt-cordless-in-a-world-o=
f-18v-tools-why-go-20v-max

http://goo.gl/xncWuc

I remember how pissed off my contractor buddies were because there were act=
ual 20 and 24 volt tools out there, not 18s masquerading as 20V. A great ma=
rketing coup for DeWalt as most people never read the packaging or did any =
research on the new DeWalt schemes, never looked at an article and never us=
ed the internet. Since they paid a premium for the tools and the new side =
by side battery configuration wasn't compatible with the rest of their 18V =
DeWalt tools, the took them back.

Although I think DW was banking on the "Tim Taylor effect" of more power is=
good (and it certainly has worked well for them!), they said we as consume=
rs were protected from our own weak minded confusion by their false labels.=
I was happy to see that they lied for my benefit as I thought they were be=
ing intentionally deceptive. I was pleased to hear that corporate America =
was looking out for me.

I feel that if they will lie about something that simple, they will lie abo=
ut other things. Unless I got a steal on a DeWalt tool, I wouldn't touch t=
hem. My personal experience with them many years ago was great, but has be=
en so/so over the past few years, so they aren't anything I look at for too=
l purchase/replacement.

I doubt that "American made" will mean much as far as quality goes as manuf=
acturing skills have left us long ago. The hope would be that the complica=
ted pieces and parts for the tools would be made somewhere else where they =
have the technology and quality control to make them and ship them here for=
use. Then maybe, maybe they could train people to screw the pieces togeth=
er.

Guess we'll see.

Robert

=20

On 8/21/2015 8:16 AM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:21:27 -0500, Martin Eastburn
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
>> voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.
>>
>> New designs require new batteries.
>
> Bull! That is just an excuse for an incompetent engineer.
>


I think the engineer is probably competent but is doing what he is told.

On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 10:17:43 -0500, "Dave in SoTex" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Electric Comet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 19 Aug 2015 15:10:19 -0400
>> Casper <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> DeWALT Focuses on “Made in the USA”
>>
>> they should focus on quality control because no one focuses like we used
>> to on where it is made
>>
>>
>> it is a good trend but
>> i have one dewalt tool left
>> i would say too little too late
>>
>> their battery charging in their charger almost burned the house down
>> another hour and it would have succeeded
>> no longer have that drill
>>
>> got a makita now and do not know or care where it was made
>> it is a good drill
>
> My partner and I quit DeWalt cordless tools years ago account poor
>battery performance, primarily that they didn't seem to last more than two
>or three years. After which I acquired a Makita 18v kit whose batteries
>lasted seven or eight years.
> More recently one of two plumbers who did some work for me plugged his
>well-used DeWalt charger with battery into a nearby GFI receptacle. Some
>time after they left I discovered the GFI had tripped. Didn't surprise me.
>
Unless it was sitting in water, I doubt that it was a real ground
fault. Likely a bad GFCI (likely from China, too).

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> I've got a question for you. How would YOU write an "honest label"
> for a Dewalt power tool that made it absolutely crystal clear that (a)
> it was an 18v tool and (b) there was no way to make the tool run in
> any useful manner on the batteries made for the previous series of 18v
> dewalt tools.

I think the bigger problem was the 12V size drill/drivers. 3 3.6V cells
gives you 10.8V and not 12, and that would make a pretty big difference in
the minds of the assuming public. It happens that 5 3.6V cells equals 18V,
so there was no loss there, but the manufacturers are at least being
consistent in their exaggerations.

It's horsepower and CFM all over again.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

"Leon" wrote:



> Many Many years ago ,1979ish, I worked for a GM dealership and for
> specific reasons did my best to burn out a "defective" 12 volt
> window regulator motor, the motor that raises and lowers the window.
>
> I hooded it up to two brand new 12 volt batteries and the result was
> that the motor ran faster. Long story short I had the voltage up to
> 72 volts, 5 batteries, and the motor screamed for 1 minute and I
> gave up. I was unable to burn the motor up to that point
-------------------------------------------
During the mid sixties, I worked for a company that manufacturied
electric
motors for antennas, windows, etc.

We referred to these motors as powered guiltiness.

Part of the spec from the OEM was that the battery fail before the
battery.

Fires were another part of the spec. Didn't the door panel catching on
fire
if the motor locked up.

Lew

"Leon" wrote:

> which failed before which?
----------------------------------------------------
The battery had to fail by definition.

No circuit protective devices were allowed.

You should have seen the test to distruction when a large
cranking motor for a large Cummins was bolted down in a
large bench vice cranking locking the roter and stator
together.

A pair of 8D batteries were connected to the cranked motor
via a 400 amp knife switch that was nailed to the the floor.

The weldinq cable was doing a St. Vitas dance while the
test was in progress.

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
>
> I doubt that Li-Ion batteries will come with out protection circuitry.
> This circuitry communicates with the smart charger during recharge so
> that the charger does not damage the Li-Ion charger.
>

The problem Lithium-based batteries have is that they can overheat and then
literally burn up. They need some form of protection to keep them from
doing so and causing fire.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

"Leon" wrote:

>> I bet that was pretty interesting. Did the motor glow red? I
> have seen
> the old style aluminum jumper cables dance when jumping a vehicle.
> Funny
> and scary. Copper jumping is another story.

---------------------------------------------------------
You will have to define "glow red", but there was lots of smoke
and stink.

The cool down was over night as I remember.

You are talking about 4/0 CU welding cable.

Remember this is the 1960's.

Lew

On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 11:07:11 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 8/21/2015 9:58 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I doubt that Li-Ion batteries will come with out protection circuitry.
>>> This circuitry communicates with the smart charger during recharge so
>>> that the charger does not damage the Li-Ion charger.
>>>
>>
>> The problem Lithium-based batteries have is that they can overheat and then
>> literally burn up. They need some form of protection to keep them from
>> doing so and causing fire.
>>
>> Puckdropper
>>
>
>Right, and they need to be able to communicate through internal
>circuitry with the charger, that can all be handled within the battery.

No, the fire problem is not just during the charge cycle.

On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 23:44:08 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>says...
>>
>> On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:21:27 -0500, Martin Eastburn
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
>> >voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.
>> >
>> >New designs require new batteries.
>>
>> I would agree about the chargers but unless the protection circuits
>> are in the tool (rather than the battery pack) there is no reason a
>> the packs couldn't be made interchangeable. It would be a simple
>> matter to make the form factor enough different that people wouldn't
>> be tempted to use the wrong one anyway.
>> >
>
>I really wish you people would learn something about the products you
>are criticizing before you criticize.

I really wish "you people" would reply to the right person. I didn't
criticize anyone. Just stated a fact.
>
>DeWalt makea a line of 18v tools. For those tools they have NiCd packs
>and LiIon packs. The packs are interchangeable in the tools and the
>most recent chargers will charge either and NiMH as well.

Where did I say differently?
>
>But the packs fit tools that were not designed for lithium ion and
>there's a possibility that someone will try to charge one in an older
>charger that was not designed for lithium ion, so the packs have to have
>the protective circuits that are necessary to keep them from blowing
>somebody's ass to Hell. That adds to the cost of the packs.

OK, where did I say differently?

>The 20v tools have a differently SHAPED battery pack that is different
>so that nobody can put one in a tool that was not designed for lithium
>ion or in a charger that was not designed for lithium ion, and so the
>packs don't need to have the protective circuits and can thus be made
>and sold at significantly lower cost.

That doesn't change the fact that 20V LiIon batteries are the same
damned thing as 18V LiIon batteries.

>Saying "therei's no reason the packs couldn't be made interchangeable"
>just displays ignorance of the the fact that deWalt makes packe that ARE
>interchangeable.

See. There is no reason. Thank you for supporting my assertion.

BTW, I have several DeWalt cordless tools. They *rarely* get used.
With a few exceptions, they're junk.

On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 08:22:39 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 8/21/2015 8:16 AM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:21:27 -0500, Martin Eastburn
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
>>> voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.
>>>
>>> New designs require new batteries.
>>
>> Bull! That is just an excuse for an incompetent engineer.
>>
>
>
>I think the engineer is probably competent but is doing what he is told.

...by a lawyer. ;-)

On 8/19/2015 4:04 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 8/19/2015 2:10 PM, Casper wrote:
>> DeWALT Focuses on “Made in the USA”
>>
>> DeWALT’s 1.2-million square foot facility that straddles the
>> North/South Carolina border is now not only a distribution center, but
>> also DeWALT’s fully functional Charlotte Manufacturing Operation,
>> creating more than 350 new jobs.
>>
>> Craig Zielinski, director of manufacturing, says DeWALT has determined
>> that it now can make cordless power tools affordably and well here in
>> America. Plus, end users want American-made tools.
>>
>> Certain components of the tools are “globally sourced,” because,
>> Zielinski says, there simply aren’t stateside suppliers with the
>> expertise for everything these days.
>>
>> DeWALT currently maintains manufacturing facilities in six states,
>> with components and accessories coming from three states. Since
>> opening the Charlotte assembly plant, aka “Project Eagle,” the company
>> has launched Project Eagle II, to add cordless tool manufacturing in
>> Greenfield, Indiana. All told, DeWALT employs approximately 1,800
>> people stateside. — Chris Marsha
>>
>> *Tools produced at the Charlotte facility include variations of
>> 18-volt tools and 20V MAX* hammer drills, drill/drivers, impact
>> drivers and recip saws.
>>
>> **DeWALT’s Charlotte facility has assembled 4 million cordless tools,
>> built 2 million electric motors and driven around 45 million screws
>> since kicking off in 2013.
>>
>
>
> Good news
> Affordable cordless tools. This seems to be a trend or at least they
> are becoming less expensive. Several weeks ago Festool dropped the
> price of their replacement Li-Ion 5amp 15v battery to less that 1/2 of
> what it had been. Actually inexpensive compared to most any other brand.

I recently looked at the DeWalt tools and was unimpressed. They were
NICAD units, and were not marked on the outside. HD was selling them for
a premium price, made me think they were Lithium. Opened the box and
they were Nicad.. disappointed.

Also recently watched a YouTube video by this guy AVE, he opens the
tools and does reviews. Their 20v unit was only 18volt same as the
Milwakee, same batteries. ... Just a marketting sham.
The Dewalt Hammer drill did not hammer through rock in the test.

So Dewalt is on my Buyer Beware list. You don't always get what you pay
for.

--
Jeff

On Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 5:01:51 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> The US has the ability to make a quality tool, but between Marketing
> and Accounting, hitting a low price point with high volume is more
> important. There was a time that Black & Decker meant quality too,
> now they are cheapened for the mass market, not the skilled craftsman.
> DeWalt is just a half step above that in yellow.

Well said. I remember going into the trades back in the early 70s, and it =
was a different world. There were NO foreign tools on the job. Porter Cab=
le was king, and they made a fine grade of professional tools. They had so=
me competition with the industrial line of Black and Decker (excellent tool=
s, available only through a professional jobber), Millers Falls, the top li=
ne of Skil, and from a small company that made drills and the original Sawz=
all, Milwaukee. They were the kings of the job site as they cost a lot, bu=
t they lasted for years on site, and were rebuildable. I still have my Mil=
waukee Hole Shooter purchased in '76, and although it has had many cords, a=
few sets of brushes and a trigger or two, it still works! My last Milwauk=
ee circular saw was rebuilt (bearings, brushes, triggers, cords) than I rem=
ember, and it finally had so many things wrong they couldn't get all the pa=
rts. My Porter Cable circular saw (346C) runs to this day. It is so old y=
ou have to load the grease cup every few days when you are using it.

These were fine tools, engineered for professionals that put them to work a=
ll day long. I didn't cry about spending money on them; I dutifully waited=
until I could afford them as I knew they were a good investment in a quali=
ty tool. My last American made tools to do that for me are my Bosch router=
, my Bosch circular saw, and my Sioux circular sander/polisher. All of tho=
se models are made somewhere else now, somewhere other than here.

So I know it can be done. ANYPLACE that can make a tool that will serve on=
the job for 30 years or more knows their stuff, and that used to be us. I=
just don't think there is that kind of desire for quality or the desire to=
make it by a manufacturer. "Good enough" is the manufacturing standard of=
the day, and I have adjusted my expectations accordingly.

I think it odd to see foreign names on the tools being touted so highly. T=
hinking back on the old tools when I was reading this thread, I remember ba=
ck in the early 70s there were NO foreign tools allowed. Period. If you h=
auled it out on site, you were warned to put it up or it got smashed. I li=
ve in "Military City USA" where we has at one time 8 military bases.

So there were no Japanese tools. There were no German tools. There were n=
o Italian tools. Thinking back, WWII was only about 25 - 27 years past us,=
and that wasn't far enough for the experienced hands on the job. Some of =
the guys I worked with weren't even 50, and they served in WWII, so they th=
ought it disrespectful and disloyal to support our old enemies in any way. =
The local unions banished all foreign made tools from the jobs, period, no=
exceptions. We used American only and were damn proud of it.
>=20
> I do have two DeWalt tools, a sander and miter saw. Both are
> serviceable for the price, but there are better out there.

I like their 10" miter saw, and have a few other DeWalts and agree with you=
r statement. No bad, but I quit seeing too many DeWalt products on the job=
for a real simple reason: they don't last well for site use. Their drill=
s are still pretty good, and since they are now priced around the Ryobis, a=
re probably a pretty good deal, as they now have the same warranty as the R=
yobi products. I have never had a saw or drill from DeWalt last longer tha=
n 3 years, so I think their warranty reflects their product confidence. Ho=
pefully, they would last a homeowner longer than that since I probably use =
saws and drills in a week more than some do in a year.

Guess we will see what happens to the new made in America line. I have bud=
dies that will buy those tools simply because they have that sticker. When=
I had three DW recips saws in a row fail in one week, a drill last about 2=
years (one year warranty at that time) and had to return other DW tools si=
mply due to poor quality of fit/finish/performance, that did it for me.

Robert =20

On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 01:35:55 +0000 (UTC), John McCoy
<[email protected]> wrote:

>krw <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> That's not unusual. It's a matter of where you measure the voltage on
>> a battery. During charge, the voltage is a lot higher than a
>> discharged battery. Since LiIon batteries have a terminal voltage
>> somewhere in the 3.5V-4.2V range (depending on when you measure), it
>> would be impossible to have both an 18V battery and a 20V battery. The
>> same battery will be both, at different points in its charge cycle. I
>> have Bosch batteries that are marked 10.8V and 12V. They're exactly
>> the same batteries, for the same tools. The 10.8V batteries are the
>> older batteries. I suspect that they were losing market share to the
>> "more powerful" 12V tools, so the marketing department fixed the
>> problem.
>
>While what you say about charging is true, there is a standard
>way to measure battery cells, and by that standard a LiIon cell
>is 1.2V. Any rating which is not a multiple of 1.2V is not
>measured by the standard (or is a flat out lie), and should be
>considered to be false advertising.

That's completely wrong. NiCd is "accepted" to be 1.2V, but NiCd has
a very flat discharge curve. None of this is true with LiIon. LiIon
will be somewhere between about 3.5V at discharge and 4.2V when
charging (some charge to 4.1V). At a full charge, the terminal
voltage will be about 4V. At "complete" discharge (it varies a little
depending on how many cycles you want the battery to last, the
terminal voltage is 3.5V-3.6V. There is also a little difference
between LiIon varieties (LiIon vs. LiPo, for instance). An 18V or 20V
battery will be five of these cells. 5 x 4V is 20V. 5 x 3.6V is 18V.
Pick your poison. There is no 4.5 cell battery. An 18V LiIon battery
is *exactly* the same as a 20V LiIon battery.

On 8/19/2015 4:46 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 8/19/2015 4:04 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 8/19/2015 2:10 PM, Casper wrote:
>>> DeWALT Focuses on “Made in the USA”
>>>
>>> DeWALT’s 1.2-million square foot facility that straddles the
>>> North/South Carolina border is now not only a distribution center, but
>>> also DeWALT’s fully functional Charlotte Manufacturing Operation,
>>> creating more than 350 new jobs.
>>>
>>> Craig Zielinski, director of manufacturing, says DeWALT has determined
>>> that it now can make cordless power tools affordably and well here in
>>> America. Plus, end users want American-made tools.
>>>
>>> Certain components of the tools are “globally sourced,” because,
>>> Zielinski says, there simply aren’t stateside suppliers with the
>>> expertise for everything these days.
>>>
>>> DeWALT currently maintains manufacturing facilities in six states,
>>> with components and accessories coming from three states. Since
>>> opening the Charlotte assembly plant, aka “Project Eagle,” the company
>>> has launched Project Eagle II, to add cordless tool manufacturing in
>>> Greenfield, Indiana. All told, DeWALT employs approximately 1,800
>>> people stateside. — Chris Marsha
>>>
>>> *Tools produced at the Charlotte facility include variations of
>>> 18-volt tools and 20V MAX* hammer drills, drill/drivers, impact
>>> drivers and recip saws.
>>>
>>> **DeWALT’s Charlotte facility has assembled 4 million cordless tools,
>>> built 2 million electric motors and driven around 45 million screws
>>> since kicking off in 2013.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Good news
>> Affordable cordless tools. This seems to be a trend or at least they
>> are becoming less expensive. Several weeks ago Festool dropped the
>> price of their replacement Li-Ion 5amp 15v battery to less that 1/2 of
>> what it had been. Actually inexpensive compared to most any other brand.
>
> I recently looked at the DeWalt tools and was unimpressed. They were
> NICAD units, and were not marked on the outside. HD was selling them for
> a premium price, made me think they were Lithium. Opened the box and
> they were Nicad.. disappointed.
>
> Also recently watched a YouTube video by this guy AVE, he opens the
> tools and does reviews. Their 20v unit was only 18volt same as the
> Milwakee, same batteries. ... Just a marketting sham.
> The Dewalt Hammer drill did not hammer through rock in the test.
>
> So Dewalt is on my Buyer Beware list. You don't always get what you pay
> for.
>

Well they are a little deceptive. Festool IIRC does the same thing.
I noticed on the DeWalt site that the 20V would seem to indicate 20
volts. Oddly they don't say 20 volts. Their other tools do indicate
voltage. So while a person would naturally assume that 20V means 20
volts, that apparently is not so.

Equally odd is that like voltage competitors may or may not last as long
on a full charge doing the same thing as the others.

So when buying a cordless tool you can't really judge its power by it's
assumed voltage. My "15" volt Festool runs circles around my "12"
Makita impact and the impact would probably run circles around most any
20 volt driver drill.

I think the only thing that you can assume is that the larger the
number, within a product line, the better it will perform within that
product line. Not necessarily when compared to the competition with
like assumed voltages.


Given that it appears most Li-Ion cells are 3.7 or 4.2 volts nether
divides into 20 evenly. So they like Festool probably round the number.
Keep in mind also that a normally functioning battery will indicate a
higher voltage right after charging than it will a few minutes after use.

On 8/20/2015 9:47 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
>>
>> Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
>> voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.
>>
>> New designs require new batteries.
>
> It's my understanding that in deWalt's case the change was mostly driven
> by a desire to move the protective circuits from the battery to the tool
> and charger to allow a cheaper battery. They took the opportunity to
> redesign the battery to a more convenient shape in the process. And
> apparently they've standardized it across deWalt, Black and Decker, and
> Porter-Cable.


Well you understand the way they want you to understand...

But lets compare a fixed price Festool 15V Li-Ion 5.2 amp $55.00

http://www.shopfestool.com/festool-battery-14-4v-5-2-ah-for-c15-t15-500530/?gclid=CjwKEAjw9dWuBRDFs9mHv-C9_FkSJADo58iMs9rWou2hzWrtYg0yPM4k7za2yhGWqq8-bAuPff7GpBoCl6rw_wcB


to a

DeWalt 12V 2 amp XR Li-Ion compatible with MAX $46.00
http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DCB127-12V-Lithium-Battery-Pack/dp/B00KYQ1UVS/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1440125906&sr=8-9&keywords=dewalt+max+battery+2+pack

or


DeWalt 20V 2 Amp XR Li-Ion compatible with MAX $89.00
http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DCB203-Compact-Li-Ion-Battery/dp/B00BYKVMES/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1440126160&sr=8-4&keywords=dewalt+max+battery+2+pack

I'll stick with Festool for less expensive, considering what you are
getting.

Assuming you are still talking about Li_ion...

FWIW Li-Ion battery packs have the special built in circuitry to prevent
damage to the battery. This circuitry normally is custom for the
particular set of cells that go into a battery pack. Taking the
battery circuitry out of the battery means you are using a generic, one
size fits all, circuit that is not going to be the most efficient for
any particular Li-ion battery. This special internal matched circuitry
in Li-ion batteries is the number one reason that no reputable battery
rebuilder will rebuild Li-Ion batteries. It is way too complicated or
time consuming to measure every cell and match that group to that custom
circuitry. This circuitry in the battery communicates with the smart
Li-ion charger. It would be interesting to hear DeWalt's actual
explanation.

On 8/20/2015 9:49 PM, krw wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:21:27 -0500, Martin Eastburn
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
>> voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.
>>
>> New designs require new batteries.
>
> I would agree about the chargers but unless the protection circuits
> are in the tool (rather than the battery pack) there is no reason a
> the packs couldn't be made interchangeable. It would be a simple
> matter to make the form factor enough different that people wouldn't
> be tempted to use the wrong one anyway.
>>


I doubt that Li-Ion batteries will come with out protection circuitry.
This circuitry communicates with the smart charger during recharge so
that the charger does not damage the Li-Ion charger.

When I was in school, the college got some stuff from a big company.

There was a really neat spot welder in the stuff. Bunch of Solid state
stuff. But the spot welder was legend in the department.

When turned on - it was RF power dumping in the copper stranded cables
that were 1" in diameter and soft, soft copper. When the tips arc's
melting a spot - the cables would dance about the table. We saw they
were once bolted down and that is what we did. One fear was for the
cables (bare wire) to bounce into each other. Just short of doing it,
but heat expands metal. That was cool.

Martin

On 8/21/2015 7:13 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Leon" wrote:
>
>>> I bet that was pretty interesting. Did the motor glow red? I
>> have seen
>> the old style aluminum jumper cables dance when jumping a vehicle.
>> Funny
>> and scary. Copper jumping is another story.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> You will have to define "glow red", but there was lots of smoke
> and stink.
>
> The cool down was over night as I remember.
>
> You are talking about 4/0 CU welding cable.
>
> Remember this is the 1960's.
>
> Lew
>
>
>

On 8/19/2015 6:13 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
>>
>> On 8/19/2015 4:04 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 8/19/2015 2:10 PM, Casper wrote:
>>>> DeWALT Focuses on ?Made in the USA?
>>>>
>>>> DeWALT?s 1.2-million square foot facility that straddles the
>>>> North/South Carolina border is now not only a distribution center, but
>>>> also DeWALT?s fully functional Charlotte Manufacturing Operation,
>>>> creating more than 350 new jobs.
>>>>
>>>> Craig Zielinski, director of manufacturing, says DeWALT has determined
>>>> that it now can make cordless power tools affordably and well here in
>>>> America. Plus, end users want American-made tools.
>>>>
>>>> Certain components of the tools are ?globally sourced,? because,
>>>> Zielinski says, there simply aren?t stateside suppliers with the
>>>> expertise for everything these days.
>>>>
>>>> DeWALT currently maintains manufacturing facilities in six states,
>>>> with components and accessories coming from three states. Since
>>>> opening the Charlotte assembly plant, aka ?Project Eagle,? the company
>>>> has launched Project Eagle II, to add cordless tool manufacturing in
>>>> Greenfield, Indiana. All told, DeWALT employs approximately 1,800
>>>> people stateside. ? Chris Marsha
>>>>
>>>> *Tools produced at the Charlotte facility include variations of
>>>> 18-volt tools and 20V MAX* hammer drills, drill/drivers, impact
>>>> drivers and recip saws.
>>>>
>>>> **DeWALT?s Charlotte facility has assembled 4 million cordless tools,
>>>> built 2 million electric motors and driven around 45 million screws
>>>> since kicking off in 2013.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Good news
>>> Affordable cordless tools. This seems to be a trend or at least they
>>> are becoming less expensive. Several weeks ago Festool dropped the
>>> price of their replacement Li-Ion 5amp 15v battery to less that 1/2 of
>>> what it had been. Actually inexpensive compared to most any other brand.
>>
>> I recently looked at the DeWalt tools and was unimpressed. They were
>> NICAD units, and were not marked on the outside. HD was selling them for
>> a premium price, made me think they were Lithium. Opened the box and
>> they were Nicad.. disappointed.
>>
>> Also recently watched a YouTube video by this guy AVE, he opens the
>> tools and does reviews. Their 20v unit was only 18volt same as the
>> Milwakee, same batteries. ... Just a marketting sham.
>> The Dewalt Hammer drill did not hammer through rock in the test.
>>
>> So Dewalt is on my Buyer Beware list. You don't always get what you pay
>> for.
>
> WHICH DeWalt tools. All of the 18v tools run on your choice of NiCd or
> Lithium--you can also get NiMH rebuilt packs that the DeWalt charger
> will charge.
>
> The 20v MAX tools are lithium-only.
>
> And the 20v is not "a marketing sham", it uses a different pack from the
> 18v tools and the reason is that that way the battery manager can be in
> the tool and charger allowing for much less expensive lithium packs than
> for the 18v tools. Calling it "20v" just keeps it from being confused
> with the 18v.
>
So it was a drill.
Yes, but the box was not marked. You would think it would say Nicad or
Lithium on the box. That it would not have to be opened. two guys at HD
could not find a marking. So we opened it.

the 20V is the same as the Milwakee 18v 5 batteries. 8350 I think.See
the video where he take it apart.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHCS7JXfuv0



--
Jeff

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> On 8/19/2015 4:04 PM, Leon wrote:
> > On 8/19/2015 2:10 PM, Casper wrote:
> >> DeWALT Focuses on ?Made in the USA?
> >>
> >> DeWALT?s 1.2-million square foot facility that straddles the
> >> North/South Carolina border is now not only a distribution center, but
> >> also DeWALT?s fully functional Charlotte Manufacturing Operation,
> >> creating more than 350 new jobs.
> >>
> >> Craig Zielinski, director of manufacturing, says DeWALT has determined
> >> that it now can make cordless power tools affordably and well here in
> >> America. Plus, end users want American-made tools.
> >>
> >> Certain components of the tools are ?globally sourced,? because,
> >> Zielinski says, there simply aren?t stateside suppliers with the
> >> expertise for everything these days.
> >>
> >> DeWALT currently maintains manufacturing facilities in six states,
> >> with components and accessories coming from three states. Since
> >> opening the Charlotte assembly plant, aka ?Project Eagle,? the company
> >> has launched Project Eagle II, to add cordless tool manufacturing in
> >> Greenfield, Indiana. All told, DeWALT employs approximately 1,800
> >> people stateside. ? Chris Marsha
> >>
> >> *Tools produced at the Charlotte facility include variations of
> >> 18-volt tools and 20V MAX* hammer drills, drill/drivers, impact
> >> drivers and recip saws.
> >>
> >> **DeWALT?s Charlotte facility has assembled 4 million cordless tools,
> >> built 2 million electric motors and driven around 45 million screws
> >> since kicking off in 2013.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Good news
> > Affordable cordless tools. This seems to be a trend or at least they
> > are becoming less expensive. Several weeks ago Festool dropped the
> > price of their replacement Li-Ion 5amp 15v battery to less that 1/2 of
> > what it had been. Actually inexpensive compared to most any other brand.
>
> I recently looked at the DeWalt tools and was unimpressed. They were
> NICAD units, and were not marked on the outside. HD was selling them for
> a premium price, made me think they were Lithium. Opened the box and
> they were Nicad.. disappointed.
>
> Also recently watched a YouTube video by this guy AVE, he opens the
> tools and does reviews. Their 20v unit was only 18volt same as the
> Milwakee, same batteries. ... Just a marketting sham.
> The Dewalt Hammer drill did not hammer through rock in the test.
>
> So Dewalt is on my Buyer Beware list. You don't always get what you pay
> for.

WHICH DeWalt tools. All of the 18v tools run on your choice of NiCd or
Lithium--you can also get NiMH rebuilt packs that the DeWalt charger
will charge.

The 20v MAX tools are lithium-only.

And the 20v is not "a marketing sham", it uses a different pack from the
18v tools and the reason is that that way the battery manager can be in
the tool and charger allowing for much less expensive lithium packs than
for the 18v tools. Calling it "20v" just keeps it from being confused
with the 18v.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> On 8/19/2015 6:13 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> > says...
> >>
> >> On 8/19/2015 4:04 PM, Leon wrote:
> >>> On 8/19/2015 2:10 PM, Casper wrote:
> >>>> DeWALT Focuses on ?Made in the USA?
> >>>>
> >>>> DeWALT?s 1.2-million square foot facility that straddles the
> >>>> North/South Carolina border is now not only a distribution center, but
> >>>> also DeWALT?s fully functional Charlotte Manufacturing Operation,
> >>>> creating more than 350 new jobs.
> >>>>
> >>>> Craig Zielinski, director of manufacturing, says DeWALT has determined
> >>>> that it now can make cordless power tools affordably and well here in
> >>>> America. Plus, end users want American-made tools.
> >>>>
> >>>> Certain components of the tools are ?globally sourced,? because,
> >>>> Zielinski says, there simply aren?t stateside suppliers with the
> >>>> expertise for everything these days.
> >>>>
> >>>> DeWALT currently maintains manufacturing facilities in six states,
> >>>> with components and accessories coming from three states. Since
> >>>> opening the Charlotte assembly plant, aka ?Project Eagle,? the company
> >>>> has launched Project Eagle II, to add cordless tool manufacturing in
> >>>> Greenfield, Indiana. All told, DeWALT employs approximately 1,800
> >>>> people stateside. ? Chris Marsha
> >>>>
> >>>> *Tools produced at the Charlotte facility include variations of
> >>>> 18-volt tools and 20V MAX* hammer drills, drill/drivers, impact
> >>>> drivers and recip saws.
> >>>>
> >>>> **DeWALT?s Charlotte facility has assembled 4 million cordless tools,
> >>>> built 2 million electric motors and driven around 45 million screws
> >>>> since kicking off in 2013.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Good news
> >>> Affordable cordless tools. This seems to be a trend or at least they
> >>> are becoming less expensive. Several weeks ago Festool dropped the
> >>> price of their replacement Li-Ion 5amp 15v battery to less that 1/2 of
> >>> what it had been. Actually inexpensive compared to most any other brand.
> >>
> >> I recently looked at the DeWalt tools and was unimpressed. They were
> >> NICAD units, and were not marked on the outside. HD was selling them for
> >> a premium price, made me think they were Lithium. Opened the box and
> >> they were Nicad.. disappointed.
> >>
> >> Also recently watched a YouTube video by this guy AVE, he opens the
> >> tools and does reviews. Their 20v unit was only 18volt same as the
> >> Milwakee, same batteries. ... Just a marketting sham.
> >> The Dewalt Hammer drill did not hammer through rock in the test.
> >>
> >> So Dewalt is on my Buyer Beware list. You don't always get what you pay
> >> for.
> >
> > WHICH DeWalt tools. All of the 18v tools run on your choice of NiCd or
> > Lithium--you can also get NiMH rebuilt packs that the DeWalt charger
> > will charge.
> >
> > The 20v MAX tools are lithium-only.
> >
> > And the 20v is not "a marketing sham", it uses a different pack from the
> > 18v tools and the reason is that that way the battery manager can be in
> > the tool and charger allowing for much less expensive lithium packs than
> > for the 18v tools. Calling it "20v" just keeps it from being confused
> > with the 18v.
> >
> So it was a drill.
> Yes, but the box was not marked. You would think it would say Nicad or
> Lithium on the box. That it would not have to be opened. two guys at HD
> could not find a marking. So we opened it.
>
> the 20V is the same as the Milwakee 18v 5 batteries. 8350 I think.See
> the video where he take it apart.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHCS7JXfuv0

So sue them.

Why do you care so much?

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> This is really old news about the batteries. I don't remember the exculpatory language on their boxes, but they make it plain that the tool could hit a 20V output occasionally.
>
> I had a long talk with the rep that sold DeWalt for about 5 years when I ran into him at HD, and he told me one of the reasons he left DeWalt/BD was that he was tired of being screamed at for phony advertising from not only the people that bought the tools but the vendors as well. He also told me how many people tested the batteries and found that they operated with the same output as their 18V tools, just did it longer.
>
> From 2011:
>
> http://www.coptool.com/dewalt-20v-max-cordless-tools-the-new-way-to-say-18v/
>
> http://www.finehomebuilding.com/item/17628/new-dewalt-cordless-in-a-world-of-18v-tools-why-go-20v-max
>
> http://goo.gl/xncWuc
>
> I remember how pissed off my contractor buddies were because there were actual 20 and 24 volt tools out there, not 18s masquerading as 20V. A great marketing coup for DeWalt as most people never read the packaging or did any research on the new DeWalt schemes, never looked at an article and never used the internet. Since they paid a premium for the tools and the new side by side battery configuration wasn't compatible with the rest of their 18V DeWalt tools, the took
them back.
>
> Although I think DW was banking on the "Tim Taylor effect" of more power is good (and it certainly has worked well for them!), they said we as consumers were protected from our own weak minded confusion by their false labels. I was happy to see that they lied for my benefit as I thought they were being intentionally deceptive. I was pleased to hear that corporate America was looking out for me.
>
> I feel that if they will lie about something that simple, they will lie about other things. Unless I got a steal on a DeWalt tool, I wouldn't touch them. My personal experience with them many years ago was great, but has been so/so over the past few years, so they aren't anything I look at for tool purchase/replacement.
>
> I doubt that "American made" will mean much as far as quality goes as manufacturing skills have left us long ago. The hope would be that the complicated pieces and parts for the tools would be made somewhere else where they have the technology and quality control to make them and ship them here for use. Then maybe, maybe they could train people to screw the pieces together.
>
> Guess we'll see.

I've got a question for you. How would YOU write an "honest label" for
a Dewalt power tool that made it absolutely crystal clear that (a) it
was an 18v tool and (b) there was no way to make the tool run in any
useful manner on the batteries made for the previous series of 18v
dewalt tools.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> On Wed, 19 Aug 2015 23:57:20 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Unless I got a steal on a DeWalt tool, I wouldn't touch them. My personal experience with them many years ago was great, but has been so/so over the past few years, so they aren't anything I look at for tool purchase/replacement.
> >
> >I doubt that "American made" will mean much as far as quality goes as manufacturing skills have left us long ago. The hope would be that the complicated pieces and parts for the tools would be made somewhere else where they have the technology and quality control to make them and ship them here for use. Then maybe, maybe they could train people to screw the pieces together.
> >
> >Guess we'll see.
> >
> >Robert
>
> The US has the ability to make a quality tool, but between Marketing
> and Accounting, hitting a low price point with high volume is more
> important. There was a time that Black & Decker meant quality too,
> now they are cheapened for the mass market, not the skilled craftsman.
> DeWalt is just a half step above that in yellow.
>
> I do have two DeWalt tools, a sander and miter saw. Both are
> serviceable for the price, but there are better out there.

Most of my deWalt tools have taken 15 years of beating. I do have some
newer ones as I recently had a huge increase in disposable income and
I'm looking to complete my 18v collection before they're discontinued.

In article <1832125228461762060.310363lcb11211-
[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> > says...
> >>
> >> On Wed, 19 Aug 2015 23:57:20 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Unless I got a steal on a DeWalt tool, I wouldn't touch them. My
> >>> personal experience with them many years ago was great, but has been
> >>> so/so over the past few years, so they aren't anything I look at for tool
> >>> purchase/replacement.
> >>>
> >>> I doubt that "American made" will mean much as far as quality goes as
> >>> manufacturing skills have left us long ago. The hope would be that the
> >>> complicated pieces and parts for the tools would be made somewhere else
> >>> where they have the technology and quality control to make them and
> >>> ship them here for use. Then maybe, maybe they could train people to
> >>> screw the pieces together.
> >>>
> >>> Guess we'll see.
> >>>
> >>> Robert
> >>
> >> The US has the ability to make a quality tool, but between Marketing
> >> and Accounting, hitting a low price point with high volume is more
> >> important. There was a time that Black & Decker meant quality too,
> >> now they are cheapened for the mass market, not the skilled craftsman.
> >> DeWalt is just a half step above that in yellow.
> >>
> >> I do have two DeWalt tools, a sander and miter saw. Both are
> >> serviceable for the price, but there are better out there.
> >
> > Most of my deWalt tools have taken 15 years of beating. I do have some
> > newer ones as I recently had a huge increase in disposable income and
> > I'm looking to complete my 18v collection before they're discontinued.
>
> No wonder you are so defensive. And judging by what you display that you
> do with those tools it is no wonder that they have lasted 15 years. I
> have a 30 year old B&D belt sander, the belt that is on it is 25 years old.

I thought I killfiled you.

<plonk you, all Leons, and the domain your rode in on>

In article <174200608461761953.378665lcb11211-
[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > [email protected] says...
> >>
> >> This is really old news about the batteries. I don't remember the
> >> exculpatory language on their boxes, but they make it plain that the
> >> tool could hit a 20V output occasionally.
> >>
> >> I had a long talk with the rep that sold DeWalt for about 5 years when I
> >> ran into him at HD, and he told me one of the reasons he left DeWalt/BD
> >> was that he was tired of being screamed at for phony advertising from
> >> not only the people that bought the tools but the vendors as well. He
> >> also told me how many people tested the batteries and found that they
> >> operated with the same output as their 18V tools, just did it longer.
> >>
> >> From 2011:
> >>
> >> http://www.coptool.com/dewalt-20v-max-cordless-tools-the-new-way-to-say-18v/
> >>
> >> http://www.finehomebuilding.com/item/17628/new-dewalt-cordless-in-a-world-of-18v-tools-why-go-20v-max
> >>
> >> http://goo.gl/xncWuc
> >>
> >> I remember how pissed off my contractor buddies were because there were
> >> actual 20 and 24 volt tools out there, not 18s masquerading as 20V. A
> >> great marketing coup for DeWalt as most people never read the packaging
> >> or did any research on the new DeWalt schemes, never looked at an
> >> article and never used the internet. Since they paid a premium for the
> >> tools and the new side by side battery configuration wasn't compatible
> >> with the rest of their 18V DeWalt tools, the took
> > them back.
> >>
> >> Although I think DW was banking on the "Tim Taylor effect" of more power
> >> is good (and it certainly has worked well for them!), they said we as
> >> consumers were protected from our own weak minded confusion by their
> >> false labels. I was happy to see that they lied for my benefit as I
> >> thought they were being intentionally deceptive. I was pleased to hear
> >> that corporate America was looking out for me.
> >>
> >> I feel that if they will lie about something that simple, they will lie
> >> about other things. Unless I got a steal on a DeWalt tool, I wouldn't
> >> touch them. My personal experience with them many years ago was great,
> >> but has been so/so over the past few years, so they aren't anything I
> >> look at for tool purchase/replacement.
> >>
> >> I doubt that "American made" will mean much as far as quality goes as
> >> manufacturing skills have left us long ago. The hope would be that the
> >> complicated pieces and parts for the tools would be made somewhere else
> >> where they have the technology and quality control to make them and ship
> >> them here for use. Then maybe, maybe they could train people to screw
> >> the pieces together.
> >>
> >> Guess we'll see.
> >
> > I've got a question for you. How would YOU write an "honest label" for
> > a Dewalt power tool that made it absolutely crystal clear that (a) it
> > was an 18v tool and (b) there was no way to make the tool run in any
> > useful manner on the batteries made for the previous series of 18v
> > dewalt tools.
>
> Ummmmm, 18 volt Lithium Ion

And how does that distinguish from the 18v lithium ion DeWalt tools that
do not take the same battery?

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> On 8/20/2015 7:13 AM, Leon wrote:
> > "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> In article <[email protected]>,
> >> [email protected] says...
> >>>
> >>> This is really old news about the batteries. I don't remember the
> >>> exculpatory language on their boxes, but they make it plain that the
> >>> tool could hit a 20V output occasionally.
> >>>
> >>> I had a long talk with the rep that sold DeWalt for about 5 years when I
> >>> ran into him at HD, and he told me one of the reasons he left DeWalt/BD
> >>> was that he was tired of being screamed at for phony advertising from
> >>> not only the people that bought the tools but the vendors as well. He
> >>> also told me how many people tested the batteries and found that they
> >>> operated with the same output as their 18V tools, just did it longer.
> >>>
> >>> From 2011:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.coptool.com/dewalt-20v-max-cordless-tools-the-new-way-to-say-18v/
> >>>
> >>> http://www.finehomebuilding.com/item/17628/new-dewalt-cordless-in-a-world-of-18v-tools-why-go-20v-max
> >>>
> >>> http://goo.gl/xncWuc
> >>>
> >>> I remember how pissed off my contractor buddies were because there were
> >>> actual 20 and 24 volt tools out there, not 18s masquerading as 20V. A
> >>> great marketing coup for DeWalt as most people never read the packaging
> >>> or did any research on the new DeWalt schemes, never looked at an
> >>> article and never used the internet. Since they paid a premium for the
> >>> tools and the new side by side battery configuration wasn't compatible
> >>> with the rest of their 18V DeWalt tools, the took
> >> them back.
> >>>
> >>> Although I think DW was banking on the "Tim Taylor effect" of more power
> >>> is good (and it certainly has worked well for them!), they said we as
> >>> consumers were protected from our own weak minded confusion by their
> >>> false labels. I was happy to see that they lied for my benefit as I
> >>> thought they were being intentionally deceptive. I was pleased to hear
> >>> that corporate America was looking out for me.
> >>>
> >>> I feel that if they will lie about something that simple, they will lie
> >>> about other things. Unless I got a steal on a DeWalt tool, I wouldn't
> >>> touch them. My personal experience with them many years ago was great,
> >>> but has been so/so over the past few years, so they aren't anything I
> >>> look at for tool purchase/replacement.
> >>>
> >>> I doubt that "American made" will mean much as far as quality goes as
> >>> manufacturing skills have left us long ago. The hope would be that the
> >>> complicated pieces and parts for the tools would be made somewhere else
> >>> where they have the technology and quality control to make them and ship
> >>> them here for use. Then maybe, maybe they could train people to screw
> >>> the pieces together.
> >>>
> >>> Guess we'll see.
> >>
> >> I've got a question for you. How would YOU write an "honest label" for
> >> a Dewalt power tool that made it absolutely crystal clear that (a) it
> >> was an 18v tool and (b) there was no way to make the tool run in any
> >> useful manner on the batteries made for the previous series of 18v
> >> dewalt tools.
> >
> > Ummmmm, 18 volt Lithium Ion
> >
> +1 THAT'S NO BULLSHIT LABELING.
>
> I think the fact that they did not represent NICAD on their 18v was
> deceptive too.

OK, what do you put on the box so that even the most retarded moron can
figure out that what is in it works with THIS battery
<http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DCB203-Compact-Li-Ion-
Battery/dp/B00BYKVMES> and not THIS battery
<http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DC9182-18V-Lithium-Battery/dp/B00OKK87FG>

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
> voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.
>
> New designs require new batteries.

It's my understanding that in deWalt's case the change was mostly driven
by a desire to move the protective circuits from the battery to the tool
and charger to allow a cheaper battery. They took the opportunity to
redesign the battery to a more convenient shape in the process. And
apparently they've standardized it across deWalt, Black and Decker, and
Porter-Cable.


> Martin
>
> On 8/20/2015 6:13 AM, Leon wrote:
> > "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> In article <[email protected]>,
> >> [email protected] says...
> >>>
> >>> This is really old news about the batteries. I don't remember the
> >>> exculpatory language on their boxes, but they make it plain that the
> >>> tool could hit a 20V output occasionally.
> >>>
> >>> I had a long talk with the rep that sold DeWalt for about 5 years when I
> >>> ran into him at HD, and he told me one of the reasons he left DeWalt/BD
> >>> was that he was tired of being screamed at for phony advertising from
> >>> not only the people that bought the tools but the vendors as well. He
> >>> also told me how many people tested the batteries and found that they
> >>> operated with the same output as their 18V tools, just did it longer.
> >>>
> >>> From 2011:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.coptool.com/dewalt-20v-max-cordless-tools-the-new-way-to-say-18v/
> >>>
> >>> http://www.finehomebuilding.com/item/17628/new-dewalt-cordless-in-a-world-of-18v-tools-why-go-20v-max
> >>>
> >>> http://goo.gl/xncWuc
> >>>
> >>> I remember how pissed off my contractor buddies were because there were
> >>> actual 20 and 24 volt tools out there, not 18s masquerading as 20V. A
> >>> great marketing coup for DeWalt as most people never read the packaging
> >>> or did any research on the new DeWalt schemes, never looked at an
> >>> article and never used the internet. Since they paid a premium for the
> >>> tools and the new side by side battery configuration wasn't compatible
> >>> with the rest of their 18V DeWalt tools, the took
> >> them back.
> >>>
> >>> Although I think DW was banking on the "Tim Taylor effect" of more power
> >>> is good (and it certainly has worked well for them!), they said we as
> >>> consumers were protected from our own weak minded confusion by their
> >>> false labels. I was happy to see that they lied for my benefit as I
> >>> thought they were being intentionally deceptive. I was pleased to hear
> >>> that corporate America was looking out for me.
> >>>
> >>> I feel that if they will lie about something that simple, they will lie
> >>> about other things. Unless I got a steal on a DeWalt tool, I wouldn't
> >>> touch them. My personal experience with them many years ago was great,
> >>> but has been so/so over the past few years, so they aren't anything I
> >>> look at for tool purchase/replacement.
> >>>
> >>> I doubt that "American made" will mean much as far as quality goes as
> >>> manufacturing skills have left us long ago. The hope would be that the
> >>> complicated pieces and parts for the tools would be made somewhere else
> >>> where they have the technology and quality control to make them and ship
> >>> them here for use. Then maybe, maybe they could train people to screw
> >>> the pieces together.
> >>>
> >>> Guess we'll see.
> >>
> >> I've got a question for you. How would YOU write an "honest label" for
> >> a Dewalt power tool that made it absolutely crystal clear that (a) it
> >> was an 18v tool and (b) there was no way to make the tool run in any
> >> useful manner on the batteries made for the previous series of 18v
> >> dewalt tools.
> >
> > Ummmmm, 18 volt Lithium Ion
> >

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:21:27 -0500, Martin Eastburn
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
> >voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.
> >
> >New designs require new batteries.
>
> I would agree about the chargers but unless the protection circuits
> are in the tool (rather than the battery pack) there is no reason a
> the packs couldn't be made interchangeable. It would be a simple
> matter to make the form factor enough different that people wouldn't
> be tempted to use the wrong one anyway.
> >

I really wish you people would learn something about the products you
are criticizing before you criticize.

DeWalt makea a line of 18v tools. For those tools they have NiCd packs
and LiIon packs. The packs are interchangeable in the tools and the
most recent chargers will charge either and NiMH as well.

But the packs fit tools that were not designed for lithium ion and
there's a possibility that someone will try to charge one in an older
charger that was not designed for lithium ion, so the packs have to have
the protective circuits that are necessary to keep them from blowing
somebody's ass to Hell. That adds to the cost of the packs.

The 20v tools have a differently SHAPED battery pack that is different
so that nobody can put one in a tool that was not designed for lithium
ion or in a charger that was not designed for lithium ion, and so the
packs don't need to have the protective circuits and can thus be made
and sold at significantly lower cost.

Saying "therei's no reason the packs couldn't be made interchangeable"
just displays ignorance of the the fact that deWalt makes packe that ARE
interchangeable.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 23:44:08 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> >says...
> >>
> >> On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:21:27 -0500, Martin Eastburn
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
> >> >voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.
> >> >
> >> >New designs require new batteries.
> >>
> >> I would agree about the chargers but unless the protection circuits
> >> are in the tool (rather than the battery pack) there is no reason a
> >> the packs couldn't be made interchangeable. It would be a simple
> >> matter to make the form factor enough different that people wouldn't
> >> be tempted to use the wrong one anyway.
> >> >
> >
> >I really wish you people would learn something about the products you
> >are criticizing before you criticize.
>
> I really wish "you people" would reply to the right person. I didn't
> criticize anyone. Just stated a fact.
> >
> >DeWalt makea a line of 18v tools. For those tools they have NiCd packs
> >and LiIon packs. The packs are interchangeable in the tools and the
> >most recent chargers will charge either and NiMH as well.
>
> Where did I say differently?
> >
> >But the packs fit tools that were not designed for lithium ion and
> >there's a possibility that someone will try to charge one in an older
> >charger that was not designed for lithium ion, so the packs have to have
> >the protective circuits that are necessary to keep them from blowing
> >somebody's ass to Hell. That adds to the cost of the packs.
>
> OK, where did I say differently?
>
> >The 20v tools have a differently SHAPED battery pack that is different
> >so that nobody can put one in a tool that was not designed for lithium
> >ion or in a charger that was not designed for lithium ion, and so the
> >packs don't need to have the protective circuits and can thus be made
> >and sold at significantly lower cost.
>
> That doesn't change the fact that 20V LiIon batteries are the same
> damned thing as 18V LiIon batteries.
>
> >Saying "therei's no reason the packs couldn't be made interchangeable"
> >just displays ignorance of the the fact that deWalt makes packe that ARE
> >interchangeable.
>
> See. There is no reason. Thank you for supporting my assertion.
>
> BTW, I have several DeWalt cordless tools. They *rarely* get used.
> With a few exceptions, they're junk.

So why do you have them?

On 8/20/2015 9:21 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
> Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
> voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.
>
> New designs require new batteries.

Maybe, voltage to the motor is not as touchy as one might expect.
Although I am sure the "smart" part is how the charger deals with
different voltages and types of batteries. The Festool charger
basically will charge any battery that will fit, regardless of voltage
or chemical make up.


Many Many years ago ,1979ish, I worked for a GM dealership and for
specific reasons did my best to burn out a "defective" 12 volt window
regulator motor, the motor that raises and lowers the window.

I hooded it up to two brand new 12 volt batteries and the result was
that the motor ran faster. Long story short I had the voltage up to 72
volts, 5 batteries, and the motor screamed for 1 minute and I gave up.
I was unable to burn the motor up to that point

I seriously doubt if any power tool would reject being powered by as
much as double voltage. I could be wrong, there could actually be, as
you said, smart circuitry, that would prevent a consumer from doing
this. Again referring to Festool, their drills will work with any
battery that will fit regardless of chemical make up, there are two
extremely different styles and there is no mistaking one for the other,
as long as the voltage is equal to or less than the stated rating for
the tool. This is my charger,

http://festoolusa.com/power-tools/cordless-drills/batteries-and-chargers/battery-charger-tcl-3-499412






>
> Martin
>
> On 8/20/2015 6:13 AM, Leon wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>> [email protected] says...
>>>>
>>>> This is really old news about the batteries. I don't remember the
>>>> exculpatory language on their boxes, but they make it plain that the
>>>> tool could hit a 20V output occasionally.
>>>>
>>>> I had a long talk with the rep that sold DeWalt for about 5 years
>>>> when I
>>>> ran into him at HD, and he told me one of the reasons he left DeWalt/BD
>>>> was that he was tired of being screamed at for phony advertising from
>>>> not only the people that bought the tools but the vendors as well. He
>>>> also told me how many people tested the batteries and found that they
>>>> operated with the same output as their 18V tools, just did it longer.
>>>>
>>>> From 2011:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.coptool.com/dewalt-20v-max-cordless-tools-the-new-way-to-say-18v/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.finehomebuilding.com/item/17628/new-dewalt-cordless-in-a-world-of-18v-tools-why-go-20v-max
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://goo.gl/xncWuc
>>>>
>>>> I remember how pissed off my contractor buddies were because there were
>>>> actual 20 and 24 volt tools out there, not 18s masquerading as 20V. A
>>>> great marketing coup for DeWalt as most people never read the packaging
>>>> or did any research on the new DeWalt schemes, never looked at an
>>>> article and never used the internet. Since they paid a premium for the
>>>> tools and the new side by side battery configuration wasn't compatible
>>>> with the rest of their 18V DeWalt tools, the took
>>> them back.
>>>>
>>>> Although I think DW was banking on the "Tim Taylor effect" of more
>>>> power
>>>> is good (and it certainly has worked well for them!), they said we as
>>>> consumers were protected from our own weak minded confusion by their
>>>> false labels. I was happy to see that they lied for my benefit as I
>>>> thought they were being intentionally deceptive. I was pleased to hear
>>>> that corporate America was looking out for me.
>>>>
>>>> I feel that if they will lie about something that simple, they will lie
>>>> about other things. Unless I got a steal on a DeWalt tool, I wouldn't
>>>> touch them. My personal experience with them many years ago was great,
>>>> but has been so/so over the past few years, so they aren't anything I
>>>> look at for tool purchase/replacement.
>>>>
>>>> I doubt that "American made" will mean much as far as quality goes as
>>>> manufacturing skills have left us long ago. The hope would be that the
>>>> complicated pieces and parts for the tools would be made somewhere else
>>>> where they have the technology and quality control to make them and
>>>> ship
>>>> them here for use. Then maybe, maybe they could train people to screw
>>>> the pieces together.
>>>>
>>>> Guess we'll see.
>>>
>>> I've got a question for you. How would YOU write an "honest label" for
>>> a Dewalt power tool that made it absolutely crystal clear that (a) it
>>> was an 18v tool and (b) there was no way to make the tool run in any
>>> useful manner on the batteries made for the previous series of 18v
>>> dewalt tools.
>>
>> Ummmmm, 18 volt Lithium Ion
>>

On 8/20/2015 4:44 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <174200608461761953.378665lcb11211-
> [email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>>
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>> [email protected] says...
>>>>
>>>> This is really old news about the batteries. I don't remember the
>>>> exculpatory language on their boxes, but they make it plain that the
>>>> tool could hit a 20V output occasionally.
>>>>
>>>> I had a long talk with the rep that sold DeWalt for about 5 years when I
>>>> ran into him at HD, and he told me one of the reasons he left DeWalt/BD
>>>> was that he was tired of being screamed at for phony advertising from
>>>> not only the people that bought the tools but the vendors as well. He
>>>> also told me how many people tested the batteries and found that they
>>>> operated with the same output as their 18V tools, just did it longer.
>>>>
>>>> From 2011:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.coptool.com/dewalt-20v-max-cordless-tools-the-new-way-to-say-18v/
>>>>
>>>> http://www.finehomebuilding.com/item/17628/new-dewalt-cordless-in-a-world-of-18v-tools-why-go-20v-max
>>>>
>>>> http://goo.gl/xncWuc
>>>>
>>>> I remember how pissed off my contractor buddies were because there were
>>>> actual 20 and 24 volt tools out there, not 18s masquerading as 20V. A
>>>> great marketing coup for DeWalt as most people never read the packaging
>>>> or did any research on the new DeWalt schemes, never looked at an
>>>> article and never used the internet. Since they paid a premium for the
>>>> tools and the new side by side battery configuration wasn't compatible
>>>> with the rest of their 18V DeWalt tools, the took
>>> them back.
>>>>
>>>> Although I think DW was banking on the "Tim Taylor effect" of more power
>>>> is good (and it certainly has worked well for them!), they said we as
>>>> consumers were protected from our own weak minded confusion by their
>>>> false labels. I was happy to see that they lied for my benefit as I
>>>> thought they were being intentionally deceptive. I was pleased to hear
>>>> that corporate America was looking out for me.
>>>>
>>>> I feel that if they will lie about something that simple, they will lie
>>>> about other things. Unless I got a steal on a DeWalt tool, I wouldn't
>>>> touch them. My personal experience with them many years ago was great,
>>>> but has been so/so over the past few years, so they aren't anything I
>>>> look at for tool purchase/replacement.
>>>>
>>>> I doubt that "American made" will mean much as far as quality goes as
>>>> manufacturing skills have left us long ago. The hope would be that the
>>>> complicated pieces and parts for the tools would be made somewhere else
>>>> where they have the technology and quality control to make them and ship
>>>> them here for use. Then maybe, maybe they could train people to screw
>>>> the pieces together.
>>>>
>>>> Guess we'll see.
>>>
>>> I've got a question for you. How would YOU write an "honest label" for
>>> a Dewalt power tool that made it absolutely crystal clear that (a) it
>>> was an 18v tool and (b) there was no way to make the tool run in any
>>> useful manner on the batteries made for the previous series of 18v
>>> dewalt tools.
>>
>> Ummmmm, 18 volt Lithium Ion
>
> And how does that distinguish from the 18v lithium ion DeWalt tools that
> do not take the same battery?
>

What should it matter? You tool does not know what chemical make up of
the battery is nor does it matter.

And if the voltage is slightly different that does not matter either.

At this is all true with well designed tools.

On 8/20/2015 5:01 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
>>
>> On 8/20/2015 7:13 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>>> [email protected] says...
>>>>>
>>>>> This is really old news about the batteries. I don't remember the
>>>>> exculpatory language on their boxes, but they make it plain that the
>>>>> tool could hit a 20V output occasionally.
>>>>>
>>>>> I had a long talk with the rep that sold DeWalt for about 5 years when I
>>>>> ran into him at HD, and he told me one of the reasons he left DeWalt/BD
>>>>> was that he was tired of being screamed at for phony advertising from
>>>>> not only the people that bought the tools but the vendors as well. He
>>>>> also told me how many people tested the batteries and found that they
>>>>> operated with the same output as their 18V tools, just did it longer.
>>>>>
>>>>> From 2011:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.coptool.com/dewalt-20v-max-cordless-tools-the-new-way-to-say-18v/
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.finehomebuilding.com/item/17628/new-dewalt-cordless-in-a-world-of-18v-tools-why-go-20v-max
>>>>>
>>>>> http://goo.gl/xncWuc
>>>>>
>>>>> I remember how pissed off my contractor buddies were because there were
>>>>> actual 20 and 24 volt tools out there, not 18s masquerading as 20V. A
>>>>> great marketing coup for DeWalt as most people never read the packaging
>>>>> or did any research on the new DeWalt schemes, never looked at an
>>>>> article and never used the internet. Since they paid a premium for the
>>>>> tools and the new side by side battery configuration wasn't compatible
>>>>> with the rest of their 18V DeWalt tools, the took
>>>> them back.
>>>>>
>>>>> Although I think DW was banking on the "Tim Taylor effect" of more power
>>>>> is good (and it certainly has worked well for them!), they said we as
>>>>> consumers were protected from our own weak minded confusion by their
>>>>> false labels. I was happy to see that they lied for my benefit as I
>>>>> thought they were being intentionally deceptive. I was pleased to hear
>>>>> that corporate America was looking out for me.
>>>>>
>>>>> I feel that if they will lie about something that simple, they will lie
>>>>> about other things. Unless I got a steal on a DeWalt tool, I wouldn't
>>>>> touch them. My personal experience with them many years ago was great,
>>>>> but has been so/so over the past few years, so they aren't anything I
>>>>> look at for tool purchase/replacement.
>>>>>
>>>>> I doubt that "American made" will mean much as far as quality goes as
>>>>> manufacturing skills have left us long ago. The hope would be that the
>>>>> complicated pieces and parts for the tools would be made somewhere else
>>>>> where they have the technology and quality control to make them and ship
>>>>> them here for use. Then maybe, maybe they could train people to screw
>>>>> the pieces together.
>>>>>
>>>>> Guess we'll see.
>>>>
>>>> I've got a question for you. How would YOU write an "honest label" for
>>>> a Dewalt power tool that made it absolutely crystal clear that (a) it
>>>> was an 18v tool and (b) there was no way to make the tool run in any
>>>> useful manner on the batteries made for the previous series of 18v
>>>> dewalt tools.
>>>
>>> Ummmmm, 18 volt Lithium Ion
>>>
>> +1 THAT'S NO BULLSHIT LABELING.
>>
>> I think the fact that they did not represent NICAD on their 18v was
>> deceptive too.
>
> OK, what do you put on the box so that even the most retarded moron can
> figure out that what is in it works with THIS battery
> <http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DCB203-Compact-Li-Ion-
> Battery/dp/B00BYKVMES> and not THIS battery
> <http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DC9182-18V-Lithium-Battery/dp/B00OKK87FG>

Maybe you should be the one answering that question.
>

On 8/20/2015 4:43 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <1832125228461762060.310363lcb11211-
> [email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>>
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>> says...
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 19 Aug 2015 23:57:20 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Unless I got a steal on a DeWalt tool, I wouldn't touch them. My
>>>>> personal experience with them many years ago was great, but has been
>>>>> so/so over the past few years, so they aren't anything I look at for tool
>>>>> purchase/replacement.
>>>>>
>>>>> I doubt that "American made" will mean much as far as quality goes as
>>>>> manufacturing skills have left us long ago. The hope would be that the
>>>>> complicated pieces and parts for the tools would be made somewhere else
>>>>> where they have the technology and quality control to make them and
>>>>> ship them here for use. Then maybe, maybe they could train people to
>>>>> screw the pieces together.
>>>>>
>>>>> Guess we'll see.
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert
>>>>
>>>> The US has the ability to make a quality tool, but between Marketing
>>>> and Accounting, hitting a low price point with high volume is more
>>>> important. There was a time that Black & Decker meant quality too,
>>>> now they are cheapened for the mass market, not the skilled craftsman.
>>>> DeWalt is just a half step above that in yellow.
>>>>
>>>> I do have two DeWalt tools, a sander and miter saw. Both are
>>>> serviceable for the price, but there are better out there.
>>>
>>> Most of my deWalt tools have taken 15 years of beating. I do have some
>>> newer ones as I recently had a huge increase in disposable income and
>>> I'm looking to complete my 18v collection before they're discontinued.
>>
>> No wonder you are so defensive. And judging by what you display that you
>> do with those tools it is no wonder that they have lasted 15 years. I
>> have a 30 year old B&D belt sander, the belt that is on it is 25 years old.
>
> I thought I killfiled you.
>
> <plonk you, all Leons, and the domain your rode in on>
>

Thought, there is only one way I get here.

ROTFLMAO

On 8/19/2015 2:10 PM, Casper wrote:
> DeWALT Focuses on “Made in the USA”
>
> DeWALT’s 1.2-million square foot facility that straddles the
> North/South Carolina border is now not only a distribution center, but
> also DeWALT’s fully functional Charlotte Manufacturing Operation,
> creating more than 350 new jobs.
>
> Craig Zielinski, director of manufacturing, says DeWALT has determined
> that it now can make cordless power tools affordably and well here in
> America. Plus, end users want American-made tools.
>
> Certain components of the tools are “globally sourced,” because,
> Zielinski says, there simply aren’t stateside suppliers with the
> expertise for everything these days.
>
> DeWALT currently maintains manufacturing facilities in six states,
> with components and accessories coming from three states. Since
> opening the Charlotte assembly plant, aka “Project Eagle,” the company
> has launched Project Eagle II, to add cordless tool manufacturing in
> Greenfield, Indiana. All told, DeWALT employs approximately 1,800
> people stateside. — Chris Marsha
>
> *Tools produced at the Charlotte facility include variations of
> 18-volt tools and 20V MAX* hammer drills, drill/drivers, impact
> drivers and recip saws.
>
> **DeWALT’s Charlotte facility has assembled 4 million cordless tools,
> built 2 million electric motors and driven around 45 million screws
> since kicking off in 2013.
>


Good news
Affordable cordless tools. This seems to be a trend or at least they
are becoming less expensive. Several weeks ago Festool dropped the
price of their replacement Li-Ion 5amp 15v battery to less that 1/2 of
what it had been. Actually inexpensive compared to most any other brand.

Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.

New designs require new batteries.

Martin

On 8/20/2015 6:13 AM, Leon wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> [email protected] says...
>>>
>>> This is really old news about the batteries. I don't remember the
>>> exculpatory language on their boxes, but they make it plain that the
>>> tool could hit a 20V output occasionally.
>>>
>>> I had a long talk with the rep that sold DeWalt for about 5 years when I
>>> ran into him at HD, and he told me one of the reasons he left DeWalt/BD
>>> was that he was tired of being screamed at for phony advertising from
>>> not only the people that bought the tools but the vendors as well. He
>>> also told me how many people tested the batteries and found that they
>>> operated with the same output as their 18V tools, just did it longer.
>>>
>>> From 2011:
>>>
>>> http://www.coptool.com/dewalt-20v-max-cordless-tools-the-new-way-to-say-18v/
>>>
>>> http://www.finehomebuilding.com/item/17628/new-dewalt-cordless-in-a-world-of-18v-tools-why-go-20v-max
>>>
>>> http://goo.gl/xncWuc
>>>
>>> I remember how pissed off my contractor buddies were because there were
>>> actual 20 and 24 volt tools out there, not 18s masquerading as 20V. A
>>> great marketing coup for DeWalt as most people never read the packaging
>>> or did any research on the new DeWalt schemes, never looked at an
>>> article and never used the internet. Since they paid a premium for the
>>> tools and the new side by side battery configuration wasn't compatible
>>> with the rest of their 18V DeWalt tools, the took
>> them back.
>>>
>>> Although I think DW was banking on the "Tim Taylor effect" of more power
>>> is good (and it certainly has worked well for them!), they said we as
>>> consumers were protected from our own weak minded confusion by their
>>> false labels. I was happy to see that they lied for my benefit as I
>>> thought they were being intentionally deceptive. I was pleased to hear
>>> that corporate America was looking out for me.
>>>
>>> I feel that if they will lie about something that simple, they will lie
>>> about other things. Unless I got a steal on a DeWalt tool, I wouldn't
>>> touch them. My personal experience with them many years ago was great,
>>> but has been so/so over the past few years, so they aren't anything I
>>> look at for tool purchase/replacement.
>>>
>>> I doubt that "American made" will mean much as far as quality goes as
>>> manufacturing skills have left us long ago. The hope would be that the
>>> complicated pieces and parts for the tools would be made somewhere else
>>> where they have the technology and quality control to make them and ship
>>> them here for use. Then maybe, maybe they could train people to screw
>>> the pieces together.
>>>
>>> Guess we'll see.
>>
>> I've got a question for you. How would YOU write an "honest label" for
>> a Dewalt power tool that made it absolutely crystal clear that (a) it
>> was an 18v tool and (b) there was no way to make the tool run in any
>> useful manner on the batteries made for the previous series of 18v
>> dewalt tools.
>
> Ummmmm, 18 volt Lithium Ion
>

On 8/19/2015 5:13 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
>>
>> On 8/19/2015 4:04 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 8/19/2015 2:10 PM, Casper wrote:
>>>> DeWALT Focuses on ?Made in the USA?
>>>>
>>>> DeWALT?s 1.2-million square foot facility that straddles the
>>>> North/South Carolina border is now not only a distribution center, but
>>>> also DeWALT?s fully functional Charlotte Manufacturing Operation,
>>>> creating more than 350 new jobs.
>>>>
>>>> Craig Zielinski, director of manufacturing, says DeWALT has determined
>>>> that it now can make cordless power tools affordably and well here in
>>>> America. Plus, end users want American-made tools.
>>>>
>>>> Certain components of the tools are ?globally sourced,? because,
>>>> Zielinski says, there simply aren?t stateside suppliers with the
>>>> expertise for everything these days.
>>>>
>>>> DeWALT currently maintains manufacturing facilities in six states,
>>>> with components and accessories coming from three states. Since
>>>> opening the Charlotte assembly plant, aka ?Project Eagle,? the company
>>>> has launched Project Eagle II, to add cordless tool manufacturing in
>>>> Greenfield, Indiana. All told, DeWALT employs approximately 1,800
>>>> people stateside. ? Chris Marsha
>>>>
>>>> *Tools produced at the Charlotte facility include variations of
>>>> 18-volt tools and 20V MAX* hammer drills, drill/drivers, impact
>>>> drivers and recip saws.
>>>>
>>>> **DeWALT?s Charlotte facility has assembled 4 million cordless tools,
>>>> built 2 million electric motors and driven around 45 million screws
>>>> since kicking off in 2013.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Good news
>>> Affordable cordless tools. This seems to be a trend or at least they
>>> are becoming less expensive. Several weeks ago Festool dropped the
>>> price of their replacement Li-Ion 5amp 15v battery to less that 1/2 of
>>> what it had been. Actually inexpensive compared to most any other brand.
>>
>> I recently looked at the DeWalt tools and was unimpressed. They were
>> NICAD units, and were not marked on the outside. HD was selling them for
>> a premium price, made me think they were Lithium. Opened the box and
>> they were Nicad.. disappointed.
>>
>> Also recently watched a YouTube video by this guy AVE, he opens the
>> tools and does reviews. Their 20v unit was only 18volt same as the
>> Milwakee, same batteries. ... Just a marketting sham.
>> The Dewalt Hammer drill did not hammer through rock in the test.
>>
>> So Dewalt is on my Buyer Beware list. You don't always get what you pay
>> for.
>
> WHICH DeWalt tools. All of the 18v tools run on your choice of NiCd or
> Lithium--you can also get NiMH rebuilt packs that the DeWalt charger
> will charge.
>
> The 20v MAX tools are lithium-only.
>
> And the 20v is not "a marketing sham", it uses a different pack from the
> 18v tools and the reason is that that way the battery manager can be in
> the tool and charger allowing for much less expensive lithium packs than
> for the 18v tools. Calling it "20v" just keeps it from being confused
> with the 18v.
>

They could have made it a bit less misleading by calling it 20L MAX.
The "v" apparently does not represent actual voltage.

On 8/21/2015 12:08 PM, krw wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 22:23:06 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 8/20/2015 9:49 PM, krw wrote:
>>> On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:21:27 -0500, Martin Eastburn
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
>>>> voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.
>>>>
>>>> New designs require new batteries.
>>>
>>> I would agree about the chargers but unless the protection circuits
>>> are in the tool (rather than the battery pack) there is no reason a
>>> the packs couldn't be made interchangeable. It would be a simple
>>> matter to make the form factor enough different that people wouldn't
>>> be tempted to use the wrong one anyway.
>>>>
>>
>>
>> I doubt that Li-Ion batteries will come with out protection circuitry.
>
> Oh, they *certainly* do. Most have a small microprocessor in them, as
> well. LiIon has a nasty habit of letting out the magic smoke (and
> fire). A decent appliance will have a "gas gauge" chip built into the
> battery to remember its charge state. It's quite difficult, to
> impossible, to do this in the appliance.
>
>> This circuitry communicates with the smart charger during recharge so
>> that the charger does not damage the Li-Ion charger.
>
> No, the problem is *not* just during charge. It's possible to put the
> protection circuits into the tool but not advised. Each cell should
> be monitored.
>


I think we are saying the same thing here. I doubt they come
"with out" protection circuitry

krw <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> That's not unusual. It's a matter of where you measure the voltage on
> a battery. During charge, the voltage is a lot higher than a
> discharged battery. Since LiIon batteries have a terminal voltage
> somewhere in the 3.5V-4.2V range (depending on when you measure), it
> would be impossible to have both an 18V battery and a 20V battery. The
> same battery will be both, at different points in its charge cycle. I
> have Bosch batteries that are marked 10.8V and 12V. They're exactly
> the same batteries, for the same tools. The 10.8V batteries are the
> older batteries. I suspect that they were losing market share to the
> "more powerful" 12V tools, so the marketing department fixed the
> problem.

While what you say about charging is true, there is a standard
way to measure battery cells, and by that standard a LiIon cell
is 1.2V. Any rating which is not a multiple of 1.2V is not
measured by the standard (or is a flat out lie), and should be
considered to be false advertising.

John

On 8/21/2015 9:58 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>>
>> I doubt that Li-Ion batteries will come with out protection circuitry.
>> This circuitry communicates with the smart charger during recharge so
>> that the charger does not damage the Li-Ion charger.
>>
>
> The problem Lithium-based batteries have is that they can overheat and then
> literally burn up. They need some form of protection to keep them from
> doing so and causing fire.
>
> Puckdropper
>

Right, and they need to be able to communicate through internal
circuitry with the charger, that can all be handled within the battery.

On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 13:25:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 8/21/2015 12:08 PM, krw wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 22:23:06 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/20/2015 9:49 PM, krw wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:21:27 -0500, Martin Eastburn
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
>>>>> voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.
>>>>>
>>>>> New designs require new batteries.
>>>>
>>>> I would agree about the chargers but unless the protection circuits
>>>> are in the tool (rather than the battery pack) there is no reason a
>>>> the packs couldn't be made interchangeable. It would be a simple
>>>> matter to make the form factor enough different that people wouldn't
>>>> be tempted to use the wrong one anyway.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I doubt that Li-Ion batteries will come with out protection circuitry.
>>
>> Oh, they *certainly* do. Most have a small microprocessor in them, as
>> well. LiIon has a nasty habit of letting out the magic smoke (and
>> fire). A decent appliance will have a "gas gauge" chip built into the
>> battery to remember its charge state. It's quite difficult, to
>> impossible, to do this in the appliance.
>>
>>> This circuitry communicates with the smart charger during recharge so
>>> that the charger does not damage the Li-Ion charger.
>>
>> No, the problem is *not* just during charge. It's possible to put the
>> protection circuits into the tool but not advised. Each cell should
>> be monitored.
>>
>
>
>I think we are saying the same thing here. I doubt they come
> "with out" protection circuitry

Oopsie. Too many negatives. Nevermind!

The company I used to work for put the "gas gauge" in the "tool" but
the battery still had overload protection. You're right. The battery
supplier wouldn't have supplied the pack without at least the minimal
protection.

On 20 Aug 2015 15:13:29 GMT, Puckdropper
<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:

>"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> I've got a question for you. How would YOU write an "honest label"
>> for a Dewalt power tool that made it absolutely crystal clear that (a)
>> it was an 18v tool and (b) there was no way to make the tool run in
>> any useful manner on the batteries made for the previous series of 18v
>> dewalt tools.
>
>I think the bigger problem was the 12V size drill/drivers. 3 3.6V cells
>gives you 10.8V and not 12, and that would make a pretty big difference in
>the minds of the assuming public. It happens that 5 3.6V cells equals 18V,
>so there was no loss there, but the manufacturers are at least being
>consistent in their exaggerations.

But three 4V cells *is* 12V. LiIon is somewhere between 3.6V and 4V
(give or take a little), depending on its charge state.

>
>It's horsepower and CFM all over again.

No, Crapsman HP is a damned lie.

On 8/20/2015 10:44 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
>>
>> On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:21:27 -0500, Martin Eastburn
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
>>> voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.
>>>
>>> New designs require new batteries.
>>
>> I would agree about the chargers but unless the protection circuits
>> are in the tool (rather than the battery pack) there is no reason a
>> the packs couldn't be made interchangeable. It would be a simple
>> matter to make the form factor enough different that people wouldn't
>> be tempted to use the wrong one anyway.
>>>
>
> I really wish you people would learn something about the products you
> are criticizing before you criticize.
>
> DeWalt makea a line of 18v tools. For those tools they have NiCd packs
> and LiIon packs. The packs are interchangeable in the tools and the
> most recent chargers will charge either and NiMH as well.
>
> But the packs fit tools that were not designed for lithium ion and
> there's a possibility that someone will try to charge one in an older
> charger that was not designed for lithium ion, so the packs have to have
> the protective circuits that are necessary to keep them from blowing
> somebody's ass to Hell. That adds to the cost of the packs.

The circuits are to protect the battery regardless, with out the
circuitry the correct charger will damage the battery. It adds to the
cost of "ALL" Li-Ion batteries.



>
> The 20v tools have a differently SHAPED battery pack that is different
> so that nobody can put one in a tool that was not designed for lithium
> ion or in a charger that was not designed for lithium ion, and so the
> packs don't need to have the protective circuits and can thus be made
> and sold at significantly lower cost.


Does not matter if a Li-Ion battery is used in what ever tool. It is
all about the charging of Li-Ion.

>
> Saying "therei's no reason the packs couldn't be made interchangeable"
> just displays ignorance of the the fact that deWalt makes packe that ARE
> interchangeable.
>
Which backs up what we are saying.

On Wed, 19 Aug 2015 17:46:52 -0400, woodchucker <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 8/19/2015 4:04 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 8/19/2015 2:10 PM, Casper wrote:
>>> DeWALT Focuses on “Made in the USA”
>>>
>>> DeWALT’s 1.2-million square foot facility that straddles the
>>> North/South Carolina border is now not only a distribution center, but
>>> also DeWALT’s fully functional Charlotte Manufacturing Operation,
>>> creating more than 350 new jobs.
>>>
>>> Craig Zielinski, director of manufacturing, says DeWALT has determined
>>> that it now can make cordless power tools affordably and well here in
>>> America. Plus, end users want American-made tools.
>>>
>>> Certain components of the tools are “globally sourced,” because,
>>> Zielinski says, there simply aren’t stateside suppliers with the
>>> expertise for everything these days.
>>>
>>> DeWALT currently maintains manufacturing facilities in six states,
>>> with components and accessories coming from three states. Since
>>> opening the Charlotte assembly plant, aka “Project Eagle,” the company
>>> has launched Project Eagle II, to add cordless tool manufacturing in
>>> Greenfield, Indiana. All told, DeWALT employs approximately 1,800
>>> people stateside. — Chris Marsha
>>>
>>> *Tools produced at the Charlotte facility include variations of
>>> 18-volt tools and 20V MAX* hammer drills, drill/drivers, impact
>>> drivers and recip saws.
>>>
>>> **DeWALT’s Charlotte facility has assembled 4 million cordless tools,
>>> built 2 million electric motors and driven around 45 million screws
>>> since kicking off in 2013.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Good news
>> Affordable cordless tools. This seems to be a trend or at least they
>> are becoming less expensive. Several weeks ago Festool dropped the
>> price of their replacement Li-Ion 5amp 15v battery to less that 1/2 of
>> what it had been. Actually inexpensive compared to most any other brand.
>
>I recently looked at the DeWalt tools and was unimpressed. They were
>NICAD units, and were not marked on the outside. HD was selling them for
>a premium price, made me think they were Lithium. Opened the box and
>they were Nicad.. disappointed.
>
>Also recently watched a YouTube video by this guy AVE, he opens the
>tools and does reviews. Their 20v unit was only 18volt same as the
>Milwakee, same batteries. ... Just a marketting sham.

That's not unusual. It's a matter of where you measure the voltage on
a battery. During charge, the voltage is a lot higher than a
discharged battery. Since LiIon batteries have a terminal voltage
somewhere in the 3.5V-4.2V range (depending on when you measure), it
would be impossible to have both an 18V battery and a 20V battery. The
same battery will be both, at different points in its charge cycle. I
have Bosch batteries that are marked 10.8V and 12V. They're exactly
the same batteries, for the same tools. The 10.8V batteries are the
older batteries. I suspect that they were losing market share to the
"more powerful" 12V tools, so the marketing department fixed the
problem.


>The Dewalt Hammer drill did not hammer through rock in the test.


>
>So Dewalt is on my Buyer Beware list. You don't always get what you pay
>for.

On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 17:40:15 -0700, Electric Comet
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 20:15:58 -0400
>krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Unless it was sitting in water, I doubt that it was a real ground
>> fault. Likely a bad GFCI (likely from China, too).
>
>or more likely an overload
>GFI can be tripped by a current overload not just a short to ground
>
Then something is wrong with the GFCI. They are not circuit breakers
(well, unless they are GFCI breakers ;-). Some are sensitive to
harmonics (crappy waveforms) on the line, though. It's possible the
charger was putting crap on the line, too.

On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 07:49:07 -0500, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:

>"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 5:01:51 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>
>>> The US has the ability to make a quality tool, but between Marketing
>>> and Accounting, hitting a low price point with high volume is more
>>> important. There was a time that Black & Decker meant quality too,
>>> now they are cheapened for the mass market, not the skilled craftsman.
>>> DeWalt is just a half step above that in yellow.
>>
>> Well said. I remember going into the trades back in the early 70s, and
>> it was a different world. There were NO foreign tools on the job.
>> Porter Cable was king, and they made a fine grade of professional tools.
>> They had some competition with the industrial line of Black and Decker
>> (excellent tools, available only through a professional jobber), Millers
>> Falls, the top line of Skil, and from a small company that made drills
>> and the original Sawzall, Milwaukee. They were the kings of the job site
>> as they cost a lot, but they lasted for years on site, and were
>> rebuildable. I still have my Milwaukee Hole Shooter purchased in '76,
>> and although it has had many cords, a few sets of brushes and a trigger
>> or two, it still works! My last Milwaukee circular saw was rebuilt
>> (bearings, brushes, triggers, cords) than I remember, and it finally had
>> so many things wrong they couldn't get all the parts. My Porter Cable
>> circular saw (346C) runs to this day. It is so old you have to load the
>> grease cup every few days when you are using it.
>>
>> These were fine tools, engineered for professionals that put them to work
>> all day long. I didn't cry about spending money on them; I dutifully
>> waited until I could afford them as I knew they were a good investment in
>> a quality tool. My last American made tools to do that for me are my
>> Bosch router, my Bosch circular saw, and my Sioux circular
>> sander/polisher. All of those models are made somewhere else now,
>> somewhere other than here.
>>
>> So I know it can be done. ANYPLACE that can make a tool that will serve
>> on the job for 30 years or more knows their stuff, and that used to be
>> us. I just don't think there is that kind of desire for quality or the
>> desire to make it by a manufacturer. "Good enough" is the manufacturing
>> standard of the day, and I have adjusted my expectations accordingly.
>>
>> I think it odd to see foreign names on the tools being touted so highly.
>> Thinking back on the old tools when I was reading this thread, I remember
>> back in the early 70s there were NO foreign tools allowed. Period. If
>> you hauled it out on site, you were warned to put it up or it got
>> smashed. I live in "Military City USA" where we has at one time 8 military bases.
>>
>> So there were no Japanese tools. There were no German tools. There were
>> no Italian tools. Thinking back, WWII was only about 25 - 27 years past
>> us, and that wasn't far enough for the experienced hands on the job.
>> Some of the guys I worked with weren't even 50, and they served in WWII,
>> so they thought it disrespectful and disloyal to support our old enemies
>> in any way. The local unions banished all foreign made tools from the
>> jobs, period, no exceptions. We used American only and were damn proud of it.
>>>
>>> I do have two DeWalt tools, a sander and miter saw. Both are
>>> serviceable for the price, but there are better out there.
>>
>> I like their 10" miter saw, and have a few other DeWalts and agree with
>> your statement. No bad, but I quit seeing too many DeWalt products on
>> the job for a real simple reason: they don't last well for site use.
>> Their drills are still pretty good, and since they are now priced around
>> the Ryobis, are probably a pretty good deal, as they now have the same
>> warranty as the Ryobi products. I have never had a saw or drill from
>> DeWalt last longer than 3 years, so I think their warranty reflects their
>> product confidence. Hopefully, they would last a homeowner longer than
>> that since I probably use saws and drills in a week more than some do in a year.
>>
>> Guess we will see what happens to the new made in America line. I have
>> buddies that will buy those tools simply because they have that sticker.
>> When I had three DW recips saws in a row fail in one week, a drill last
>> about 2 years (one year warranty at that time) and had to return other DW
>> tools simply due to poor quality of fit/finish/performance, that did it for me.
>>
>> Robert
>
>I remember when Made in America meant a standard of quality. . Now it
>simply means where it is built.

Assembled

Leon wrote:
> On 8/19/2015 5:13 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>> says...
>>>
>>> On 8/19/2015 4:04 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 8/19/2015 2:10 PM, Casper wrote:
>>>>> DeWALT Focuses on ?Made in the USA?
>>>>>
>>>>> DeWALT?s 1.2-million square foot facility that straddles the
>>>>> North/South Carolina border is now not only a distribution center,
>>>>> but
>>>>> also DeWALT?s fully functional Charlotte Manufacturing Operation,
>>>>> creating more than 350 new jobs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Craig Zielinski, director of manufacturing, says DeWALT has
>>>>> determined
>>>>> that it now can make cordless power tools affordably and well here in
>>>>> America. Plus, end users want American-made tools.
>>>>>
>>>>> Certain components of the tools are ?globally sourced,? because,
>>>>> Zielinski says, there simply aren?t stateside suppliers with the
>>>>> expertise for everything these days.
>>>>>
>>>>> DeWALT currently maintains manufacturing facilities in six states,
>>>>> with components and accessories coming from three states. Since
>>>>> opening the Charlotte assembly plant, aka ?Project Eagle,? the
>>>>> company
>>>>> has launched Project Eagle II, to add cordless tool manufacturing in
>>>>> Greenfield, Indiana. All told, DeWALT employs approximately 1,800
>>>>> people stateside. ? Chris Marsha
>>>>>
>>>>> *Tools produced at the Charlotte facility include variations of
>>>>> 18-volt tools and 20V MAX* hammer drills, drill/drivers, impact
>>>>> drivers and recip saws.
>>>>>
>>>>> **DeWALT?s Charlotte facility has assembled 4 million cordless tools,
>>>>> built 2 million electric motors and driven around 45 million screws
>>>>> since kicking off in 2013.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good news
>>>> Affordable cordless tools. This seems to be a trend or at least they
>>>> are becoming less expensive. Several weeks ago Festool dropped the
>>>> price of their replacement Li-Ion 5amp 15v battery to less that 1/2 of
>>>> what it had been. Actually inexpensive compared to most any other
>>>> brand.
>>>
>>> I recently looked at the DeWalt tools and was unimpressed. They were
>>> NICAD units, and were not marked on the outside. HD was selling them
>>> for
>>> a premium price, made me think they were Lithium. Opened the box and
>>> they were Nicad.. disappointed.
>>>
>>> Also recently watched a YouTube video by this guy AVE, he opens the
>>> tools and does reviews. Their 20v unit was only 18volt same as the
>>> Milwakee, same batteries. ... Just a marketting sham.
>>> The Dewalt Hammer drill did not hammer through rock in the test.
>>>
>>> So Dewalt is on my Buyer Beware list. You don't always get what you
>>> pay
>>> for.
>>
>> WHICH DeWalt tools. All of the 18v tools run on your choice of NiCd or
>> Lithium--you can also get NiMH rebuilt packs that the DeWalt charger
>> will charge.
>>
>> The 20v MAX tools are lithium-only.
>>
>> And the 20v is not "a marketing sham", it uses a different pack from the
>> 18v tools and the reason is that that way the battery manager can be in
>> the tool and charger allowing for much less expensive lithium packs than
>> for the 18v tools. Calling it "20v" just keeps it from being confused
>> with the 18v.
>>
>
> They could have made it a bit less misleading by calling it 20L MAX.
> The "v" apparently does not represent actual voltage.

Yes, I guess we'll have to start relying on specifications rather than
meaningless labels..

On Wed, 19 Aug 2015 15:10:19 -0400
Casper <[email protected]> wrote:

> DeWALT Focuses on “Made in the USA”

they should focus on quality control because no one focuses like we used
to on where it is made


it is a good trend but
i have one dewalt tool left
i would say too little too late

their battery charging in their charger almost burned the house down
another hour and it would have succeeded
no longer have that drill

got a makita now and do not know or care where it was made
it is a good drill

On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 10:17:43 -0500
"Dave in SoTex" <[email protected]> wrote:

> My partner and I quit DeWalt cordless tools years ago account
> poor battery performance, primarily that they didn't seem to last
> more than two or three years. After which I acquired a Makita 18v kit
> whose batteries lasted seven or eight years.

hope mine last that long

> More recently one of two plumbers who did some work for me
> plugged his well-used DeWalt charger with battery into a nearby GFI
> receptacle. Some time after they left I discovered the GFI had
> tripped. Didn't surprise me.

maybe that is the answer
use gfi receptacles everywhere to protect us from this junk they
are shipping by the container full

Electric Comet wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 10:17:43 -0500
> "Dave in SoTex" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> My partner and I quit DeWalt cordless tools years ago account
>> poor battery performance, primarily that they didn't seem to last
>> more than two or three years. After which I acquired a Makita 18v kit
>> whose batteries lasted seven or eight years.
>
> hope mine last that long
>
>> More recently one of two plumbers who did some work for me
>> plugged his well-used DeWalt charger with battery into a nearby GFI
>> receptacle. Some time after they left I discovered the GFI had
>> tripped. Didn't surprise me.
>
> maybe that is the answer
> use gfi receptacles everywhere to protect us from this junk they
> are shipping by the container full

Yeah... whatever...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 20:15:58 -0400
krw <[email protected]> wrote:

> Unless it was sitting in water, I doubt that it was a real ground
> fault. Likely a bad GFCI (likely from China, too).

or more likely an overload
GFI can be tripped by a current overload not just a short to ground

Electric Comet wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 20:15:58 -0400
> krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Unless it was sitting in water, I doubt that it was a real ground
>> fault. Likely a bad GFCI (likely from China, too).
>
> or more likely an overload
> GFI can be tripped by a current overload not just a short to ground

More likely you're not correct.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 8/20/2015 10:28 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Leon" wrote:
>
>
>
>> Many Many years ago ,1979ish, I worked for a GM dealership and for
>> specific reasons did my best to burn out a "defective" 12 volt
>> window regulator motor, the motor that raises and lowers the window.
>>
>> I hooded it up to two brand new 12 volt batteries and the result was
>> that the motor ran faster. Long story short I had the voltage up to
>> 72 volts, 5 batteries, and the motor screamed for 1 minute and I
>> gave up. I was unable to burn the motor up to that point
> -------------------------------------------
> During the mid sixties, I worked for a company that manufacturied
> electric
> motors for antennas, windows, etc.
>
> We referred to these motors as powered guiltiness.
>
> Part of the spec from the OEM was that the battery fail before the
> battery.
>
> Fires were another part of the spec. Didn't the door panel catching on
> fire
> if the motor locked up.
>
> Lew
>
>
which failed before which? ;~)

If the regulator motor locked up a fuse should have blown and or a
breaker tripped.

On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 22:23:06 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 8/20/2015 9:49 PM, krw wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:21:27 -0500, Martin Eastburn
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
>>> voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.
>>>
>>> New designs require new batteries.
>>
>> I would agree about the chargers but unless the protection circuits
>> are in the tool (rather than the battery pack) there is no reason a
>> the packs couldn't be made interchangeable. It would be a simple
>> matter to make the form factor enough different that people wouldn't
>> be tempted to use the wrong one anyway.
>>>
>
>
>I doubt that Li-Ion batteries will come with out protection circuitry.

Oh, they *certainly* do. Most have a small microprocessor in them, as
well. LiIon has a nasty habit of letting out the magic smoke (and
fire). A decent appliance will have a "gas gauge" chip built into the
battery to remember its charge state. It's quite difficult, to
impossible, to do this in the appliance.

>This circuitry communicates with the smart charger during recharge so
>that the charger does not damage the Li-Ion charger.

No, the problem is *not* just during charge. It's possible to put the
protection circuits into the tool but not advised. Each cell should
be monitored.

On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:21:27 -0500, Martin Eastburn
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
>voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.
>
>New designs require new batteries.

I would agree about the chargers but unless the protection circuits
are in the tool (rather than the battery pack) there is no reason a
the packs couldn't be made interchangeable. It would be a simple
matter to make the form factor enough different that people wouldn't
be tempted to use the wrong one anyway.
>

On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:21:27 -0500, Martin Eastburn
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
>voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.
>
>New designs require new batteries.

Bull! That is just an excuse for an incompetent engineer.

"Electric Comet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 19 Aug 2015 15:10:19 -0400
> Casper <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> DeWALT Focuses on “Made in the USA”
>
> they should focus on quality control because no one focuses like we used
> to on where it is made
>
>
> it is a good trend but
> i have one dewalt tool left
> i would say too little too late
>
> their battery charging in their charger almost burned the house down
> another hour and it would have succeeded
> no longer have that drill
>
> got a makita now and do not know or care where it was made
> it is a good drill

My partner and I quit DeWalt cordless tools years ago account poor
battery performance, primarily that they didn't seem to last more than two
or three years. After which I acquired a Makita 18v kit whose batteries
lasted seven or eight years.
More recently one of two plumbers who did some work for me plugged his
well-used DeWalt charger with battery into a nearby GFI receptacle. Some
time after they left I discovered the GFI had tripped. Didn't surprise me.

Dave in SoTex

On Wed, 19 Aug 2015 23:57:20 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Unless I got a steal on a DeWalt tool, I wouldn't touch them. My personal experience with them many years ago was great, but has been so/so over the past few years, so they aren't anything I look at for tool purchase/replacement.
>
>I doubt that "American made" will mean much as far as quality goes as manufacturing skills have left us long ago. The hope would be that the complicated pieces and parts for the tools would be made somewhere else where they have the technology and quality control to make them and ship them here for use. Then maybe, maybe they could train people to screw the pieces together.
>
>Guess we'll see.
>
>Robert

The US has the ability to make a quality tool, but between Marketing
and Accounting, hitting a low price point with high volume is more
important. There was a time that Black & Decker meant quality too,
now they are cheapened for the mass market, not the skilled craftsman.
DeWalt is just a half step above that in yellow.

I do have two DeWalt tools, a sander and miter saw. Both are
serviceable for the price, but there are better out there.

On 8/20/2015 7:13 AM, Leon wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> [email protected] says...
>>>
>>> This is really old news about the batteries. I don't remember the
>>> exculpatory language on their boxes, but they make it plain that the
>>> tool could hit a 20V output occasionally.
>>>
>>> I had a long talk with the rep that sold DeWalt for about 5 years when I
>>> ran into him at HD, and he told me one of the reasons he left DeWalt/BD
>>> was that he was tired of being screamed at for phony advertising from
>>> not only the people that bought the tools but the vendors as well. He
>>> also told me how many people tested the batteries and found that they
>>> operated with the same output as their 18V tools, just did it longer.
>>>
>>> From 2011:
>>>
>>> http://www.coptool.com/dewalt-20v-max-cordless-tools-the-new-way-to-say-18v/
>>>
>>> http://www.finehomebuilding.com/item/17628/new-dewalt-cordless-in-a-world-of-18v-tools-why-go-20v-max
>>>
>>> http://goo.gl/xncWuc
>>>
>>> I remember how pissed off my contractor buddies were because there were
>>> actual 20 and 24 volt tools out there, not 18s masquerading as 20V. A
>>> great marketing coup for DeWalt as most people never read the packaging
>>> or did any research on the new DeWalt schemes, never looked at an
>>> article and never used the internet. Since they paid a premium for the
>>> tools and the new side by side battery configuration wasn't compatible
>>> with the rest of their 18V DeWalt tools, the took
>> them back.
>>>
>>> Although I think DW was banking on the "Tim Taylor effect" of more power
>>> is good (and it certainly has worked well for them!), they said we as
>>> consumers were protected from our own weak minded confusion by their
>>> false labels. I was happy to see that they lied for my benefit as I
>>> thought they were being intentionally deceptive. I was pleased to hear
>>> that corporate America was looking out for me.
>>>
>>> I feel that if they will lie about something that simple, they will lie
>>> about other things. Unless I got a steal on a DeWalt tool, I wouldn't
>>> touch them. My personal experience with them many years ago was great,
>>> but has been so/so over the past few years, so they aren't anything I
>>> look at for tool purchase/replacement.
>>>
>>> I doubt that "American made" will mean much as far as quality goes as
>>> manufacturing skills have left us long ago. The hope would be that the
>>> complicated pieces and parts for the tools would be made somewhere else
>>> where they have the technology and quality control to make them and ship
>>> them here for use. Then maybe, maybe they could train people to screw
>>> the pieces together.
>>>
>>> Guess we'll see.
>>
>> I've got a question for you. How would YOU write an "honest label" for
>> a Dewalt power tool that made it absolutely crystal clear that (a) it
>> was an 18v tool and (b) there was no way to make the tool run in any
>> useful manner on the batteries made for the previous series of 18v
>> dewalt tools.
>
> Ummmmm, 18 volt Lithium Ion
>
+1 THAT'S NO BULLSHIT LABELING.

I think the fact that they did not represent NICAD on their 18v was
deceptive too.

--
Jeff