Use for a finish sander?

On 7/22/2014 7:37 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 7/22/2014 6:08 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>> On 7/21/2014 10:05 AM, Leon wrote:
>>
>>> Once every thing is smooth I move to the next grit and typically to my
>>> finish sander and only moving the sander in the direction of the grain.
>>
>> And right at the tee-joint line ... what? Do you try to just barely
>> touch the edge? I'm trying to get an idea of how big an issue this is.
>
> If you are talking about the butt joint where like a rail and stile
> join, I sand that with ROS usually down to 150 grit and pay no
> attention to grain. Then the transition or joint is smooth I switch to
> my finish sander and the same 150 grit and will try to only move the
> sander in the direction of the grain. I first run the sander along the
> piece that runs into the other. If I go too far, into the mating board
> with the grain running 90 degrees to the piece I am sanding, I work that
> out when I sand the other piece. It is easier sanding in this order
> than sanding in reverse to that order. Then I do the same with 180
> grit and the finish sander. Because finish sanders typically use
> rectangular pieces of sand paper it is easier to control exactly what
> you are sanding.
>
> I have always looked at the round disk ROS sander as one to remove bulk
> but with much more fineness than a belt sander. For the last grits I
> almost always use a finish sander so that I can have more control with
> direction. About the only time I will finish sand with a ROS is when
> sanding large non-enclosed panels, cabinet sides or tops. ROS's can't
> get into inside corners and are tough to hold flat on the edge surface
> of a face frame, doors, drawers, anything narrow..
>
>
>
>>
>> I'm thinking I could machine sand as carefully as possible up to the
>> line on the "bottom" piece of the "T", inevitably going over a little.
>> But on the "top" piece, I could hand-sand without going over the edge at
>> all for the last grit, especially if I were to make a custom sanding
>> block with a "stop".

Exactly what I was attempting to explain in the previous reply. BUT if
you have a small finish sander it is easily done with that instead of
using brute force. ;~)




>>
>> Like this:
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/14529789927/
>>
>> But I have a feeling you guys don't do anything like that.

That is a little over kill. LOL BUT it should work. You don't quite
have to be that anal, sanding should be FUN! ;~)

If you fold the paper into the corner of the block it will also ease the
outside edge and sand the outer edge at the same time. BUT unless
executed perfectly it could round the outer edge more than you want.
Better to use two pieces, one for the outer edge surface short of the
corner and one for the surface short of the corner, come back and get
the corner.

Free hand sanding with a block of wood or finish sander should allow you
to get close enough with out going over on the pieces that butt. Once
yu get into the finer grits the stray scratches tend to be overshadowed
by that line at the joint where the two pieces meet.

One other thing, I buy foam backed 4x4 sheets of finish grit sand paper.
The makes for great hand sanding with out a block, the foam prevents
you fingers from slipping and is great for quickly easing over edges in
tight spots and corners. I typically use Mirka brand found at Woodcraft.







>>
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On 6/26/2014 1:26 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 6/22/2014 12:47 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Jun 2014 12:18:20 -0400, Greg Guarino wrote:
>>
>>>> Absolutely use both. IME, even those old "finish" sanders that don't
>>>> orbit should do nicely for your final grit as long as you sand with the
>>>> grain. Especially important to either dust or blow off each piece after
>>>> each grit.
>>>
>>> This one (an old Rockwell) orbits.
>>
>> Make sure the "orbit" is random. I seem to remember the orbits were not
>> random. If you use one of those you'll get cross-grain scratches.
>>
> Well it isn't random, of course. These sanders predate Random-Orbit
> action by over a decade. As far as I know, most "rectangular" sanders
> are still not "random-orbit". Which is why I asked my original question.

OK, some of the OLD orbital disk sanders were essentially a disk
spinning on the end of a drill, like a grinder. You do not want that.

For the most part finish sanders are typically only orbital, not random
orbit, however their pattern is so small it does not matter. ROS's
sanders are a nice alternative to using a belt sander when you want
something that can be more aggressive than a finish sander but still
almost have the same finesse as a finish sander.




>
> Was everything that was machine-sanded before 1982 (and considerably
> after, as ROS sanders didn't replace everything else all at once)
> covered in nasty cross grain scratches?
>
> The crux of my question was "can I profitably use orbital (not random)
> sanders for finer grits?" My purpose is to avoid changing grits on my
> (one) ROS repeatedly (or setting up each set of parts repeatedly) as I
> sand the 56 (mostly very small) pieces that make up the frames of my
> current project.
>
> A couple of people have said yes, which makes sense to me as I never had
> a ROS before recently and I don't remember poor results with the
> Orbitals I used before. Of course, most of that work was with fine grits
> on ply and some S4S trim. Or maybe I never looked closely enough?
>
> I'm inclined to set up the three sanders I have with 120, 150 and
> (perhaps) 180 for all of the Red Oak I need to sand. I'd use the ROS for
> the coarsest grit, mostly to remove the planer marks from the
> store-bought S4S lumber.
>
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In article <[email protected]>, Larry Blanchard
<[email protected]> wrote:

> On Sun, 22 Jun 2014 12:18:20 -0400, Greg Guarino wrote:
>
> >> Absolutely use both. IME, even those old "finish" sanders that don't
> >> orbit should do nicely for your final grit as long as you sand with the
> >> grain. Especially important to either dust or blow off each piece after
> >> each grit.
> >
> > This one (an old Rockwell) orbits.
>
> Make sure the "orbit" is random. I seem to remember the orbits were not
> random. If you use one of those you'll get cross-grain scratches.

And regardless, very light pressure downwards, letting the paper cut by
itself.

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sobered, but stupid lasts forever.² -- Aristophanes

On 7/21/2014 3:03 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 7/21/2014 3:23 PM, Swingman wrote:
>
>> Many folks who own one, as well as just about every cabinet shop that
>> specializes in items that use that type joinery, will routinely run all
>> their doors, face frames, door fronts, and anything with that similar
>> type joinery, through a large drum sander as a matter of course.
>
> I'm aware of this. But it has often made me wonder how the cross-grain
> sanding doesn't produce bad effects.

Not the final sanding...


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On 7/21/2014 12:52 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:

> I had considered easing the edges on the parts (including the ends of
> the "rungs") before assembly, leaving an deliberate line between the
> rungs and uprights. But the fit was pretty good in the dry fit, leading
> me to wonder if I could sand over the joints somehow to fix any
> imperfections.

Having that deliberate line is often done to hide joinery imperfections;
it can also be a deliberate design feature; and it can certainly serve
both purposes at the same time.

The decision is entirely up to you, so keep'em guessing. ;)


> I would normally have guessed the answer was "no". But Larry Blanchard's
> suggested otherwise. So do you guys simply have sufficient accuracy that
> this never comes up? Or is there some method you use to sand the joints
> flat?

I personally have rarely used that particular method/device to hide
inaccurate joinery in face frames ... can't remember the last time.

The issue where it would be necessary is mostly one of project parts not
being cut or milled perfectly square/at right angles.

By insuring your stock is prepared with square edges during milling,
ripping, and crosscutting, and by batch cutting ALL parts, you can
pretty well discount that being a problem.

That notwithstanding, that does not preclude the occasional need to sand
some joints to insure their adjoining exposed faces are level with each
other ... a not uncommon occurrence when gluing up parts using any
joinery; often a byproduct of clamping issues, like slight slipping
under pressure.

Depending upon the severity, most of these can be taken care with a
finish sander, or the "aggressive" setting on a ROS if need be, and you
have one that will do that.

However, when installing a 15' run of face frame, base or wall cabinets
to each other, a ROS (preferably one with an "aggressive" setting, like
the Festool 5 and 6" Rotex sanders) is often essential in getting an
evenly matching surface between adjacent cabinets so the doors and
drawer fronts are in the same plane to those in adjacent cabinets.

Many folks who own one, as well as just about every cabinet shop that
specializes in items that use that type joinery, will routinely run all
their doors, face frames, door fronts, and anything with that similar
type joinery, through a large drum sander as a matter of course.

IOW, it's not like its an uncommon issue.

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On 7/21/2014 3:03 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 7/21/2014 3:23 PM, Swingman wrote:
>
>> Many folks who own one, as well as just about every cabinet shop that
>> specializes in items that use that type joinery, will routinely run all
>> their doors, face frames, door fronts, and anything with that similar
>> type joinery, through a large drum sander as a matter of course.
>
> I'm aware of this. But it has often made me wonder how the cross-grain
> sanding doesn't produce bad effects.
>


The drum sander is not the final pass. I have a drum sander and use a
relatively coarse grit. I use the drum sander to make everything flat
and smooth. I follow up with a ROS and then a finish sander. Keep in
mind that the drum sander normally removes the problem areas so the ROS
and finish sanders are simply smoothing out the scratch pattern produced
by the drum sander.

On 7/21/2014 11:13 AM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Jul 2014 10:54:06 -0400, Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Actually the direction that you move the sander, ROS or finish sander,
>>> is more important.
>>
>> I have to disagree with this statement Leon. It has nothing at all to
>> do with direction. I would say that it has something to do with the
>> speed at which you move in any direction - so as to allow the orbital
>> action to do its thing, but most certainly - not to do with the
>> direction. It's orbital - direction has no meaning. With a finish
>> sander - ok - might agree on that point.
>
> Since I seem to have triggered this discussion, I'll chime in.
>
> I agree with Mike. I've never had a problem with cross grain scratches
> using my ROS. Sure, you can see scratches in coarser grits, but they're
> orbital, not directional. If Leon is seeing scratches most likely he's
> either not going to a fine enough grit, he's bearing down too hard, or he
> has an orbital sander, not a *random* orbital sander.
>
> I can't state that there's no ROS that will do what Leon's does, but I
> can state that mine (an old Bosch) doesn't.
>
> Can the mechanism in an ROS fail in such a way as to eliminate the
> randomness?
>

FWIW I used a PC Right angle ROS starting in the late 80's and used it
until going to the Rotex 5~6 years ago.

Revisiting the ROS action, yes it is a random action but if you are
going cross grain you are still moving the cutting edges of the grit
across the grain. Yes the ROS is better than a regular "non random"
orbit sander but I can't get away with what I see if I get up close and
personal. I very very very seldom have ever used a ROS as the last step
for sanding regardless of grit.

Now having said that I too have used a Bosch ROS. By comparison it was
much less aggressive and beyond noticeably slower than both the PC and
the Rotex in ROS mode so perhaps some ROS sanders don't display that
scratch pattern but IMHO the whole purpose to use a ROS over a finish
sander is to speed up the sanding process.

On 6/22/2014 8:44 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> The last couple of weekends have been busy and thus unproductive
> woodworking-wise. I'm trying to come up with an efficient regime to sand
> the lots and lots of repetitive parts that make up the two shelf units
> I'm building.
>
> I made myself a little "corral" just big enough to immobilize four 9" x
> 1.5" pieces at a time (four 1/2" ply "fences" in a rectangle) for
> sanding. I will probably do something similar for the other size parts.
> Per advice here (distilled from several posters) I'm going to use (at
> least) 120 and 150 grit. The project is made of standard Lowe's-issue
> S4S red oak.

Sand the pieces in larger sections "before" you cut them apart. Sand a
9" x 7" piece first then rip them apart. Now you only have a half the
edges to sand.

Stack several pieces together on a flat surface. On both sides of the
stack lay a longer piece of wood, thinner than the stack. Use a bar
clamp on both ends of the boards to squeeze every thing together.

Or lay them all down on double stick tape

Or http://www.jettools.com/us/en/p/10-20-plus-benchtop-sander/628900

Definitely use all of your sanders with different grits attached.


>
> I have a random orbit sander and an old (1960's vintage, chrome)
> third-sheet finish sander. I'm wondering if I could possibly streamline
> the process by using both. I know it's easy enough to slap on another
> hook and loop disk, but I'll be doing that every minute or two, or
> alternatively setting up each batch of parts twice (or 3 times).
>
> If I can get good results using the finish sander for the finer grit, or
> possibly even for only the 180 if I decide that's necessary, it could
> save me from having to repeat one little irritating step over and over.
>
> I can imagine several possible flaws in this plan, but I really don't
> have enough experience to know how much of a problem any of them would
> be. Until recently, finish sanders were all I had. Of course, my
> previous projects were composed mostly of plywood.
>
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On 7/21/2014 11:13 AM, Larry Blanchard wrote:

> Sure, you can see scratches in coarser grits, but they're
> orbital, not directional.

OK, I'm taking sides here. ;)

My experience in that regard more closely matches Leon's.

IME, ROS sanding scratches do show up on crossgrain (proportionate to
the coarseness of the grit) much more than on long grain when using a
ROS across a crossgrain joint, like a rail and stile, even with a top
quality random orbit sander.

Unfinished, you might never see them, but they have a tendency to become
much more evident under a stain and topcoat.

> If Leon is seeing scratches most likely he's
> either not going to a fine enough grit, he's bearing down too hard, or he
> has an orbital sander, not a*random* orbital sander.

Leon uses a 5" Festool ROS, IIRC ... and one look, up close and
personal, at anything he builds and finishes will tell you, without
equivocation, that he indeed he is a master at using it. ;)

Again IME, and because there are a myriad of reasons where you do not
want to sand past a certain grit, heeding Leon's advice regarding
following grain direction when using a ROS, may well save a project you
just thought that, by using a ROS without regard to grain, there would
be no problems with sanding marks showing up after a stain and topcoat
was applied.

YMMV ...

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On 7/21/2014 11:27 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:

>> Some times Mike you can be a real putz.
>
> Sometimes?

At least he didn't capitalize it like I would have. <g,d&r>

BTW, enjoyed our phone conversation this morning. Now, if we could only
get the rest of this country to heed our advice.


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On 7/21/2014 9:49 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Greg Guarino wrote:
>> On 6/26/2014 7:36 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
>>
>>> I was amazed at how easy face frames became when my first ROS sanded
>>> right across the corners with no scratches:-)
>>
>> So, is this the consensus? I can sand over the joints in a face frame
>> with a random-orbit sander without cross-grain scratches? Is this only
>> for finer grits?
>
> Try it Greg - you will see whatever you need to see. Better than asking
> here.
>

Some times Mike you can be a real putz.

On 7/21/2014 9:54 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> Actually the direction that you move the sander, ROS or finish sander,
>> is more important.
>
> I have to disagree with this statement Leon. It has nothing at all to do
> with direction. I would say that it has something to do with the speed at
> which you move in any direction - so as to allow the orbital action to do
> its thing, but most certainly - not to do with the direction. It's
> orbital - direction has no meaning. With a finish sander - ok - might agree
> on that point.
>
>
>


Well Mike, I am not just making this stuff up. The proof is in the
pudding, Try moving you finish sander and or ROS in a direction other
than with the grain and you will end up with scratches that go across
the grain. Regardless of which direction the small scratch pattern the
ROS or finish sanders make when you drag across the grain the scratch
patterns are no longer hidden by the grain. Been there Done that.

FWIW the ideal sander speed is 1" per second.

On 7/21/2014 4:57 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 7/21/2014 1:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> dadiOH wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> It has nothing to do with randomness, nor orbital for that matter.
>>>> It has to do with the movement of the sander itself, not the motion
>>>> generated by the sander.
>>>
>>> I happen to agree with that statement and that's what I had said in
>>> my reply. But... I do defer to those who do finer work than I do
>>> (like Leon and Karl), and I do accept their opinions since they go
>>> way beyond the level of acceptance that I do.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Actually that is pretty much what I said and you disagreed.
>>
>> What I said,
>>
>> Actually the direction that you move the sander, ROS or finish sander,
>> is more important.
>>
>> What you said,
>>
>> I have to disagree with this statement Leon. It has nothing at all to
>> do with direction. I would say that it has something to do with the
>> speed at which you move in any direction - so as to allow the orbital
>> action to do its thing, but most certainly - not to do with the
>> direction.
>
> So - you are correct Leon. Allow me to explain if I may. You are correct
> in calling me out on this but my point is that the negative affect of cross
> hatch is going to be more driven by how the sander is used than by its
> direction. I know - that is a complete contradiction to what I said above,
> and I apologize for that. The direction is somewhat irrelevant because it
> is an orbital sander. What really plays into the finish is how long one
> keeps the sander in any given area - how slowly or how quicly they move the
> sander to minimize the effect of crosshatch. I know - I said it completely
> wrong the first time - my bad.
>
>>
>> Basically if the ROS's direction of movement is against the grain you
>> are more likely to see scratches than if the direction of movement is
>> in the direction of the grain.
>
> But ROS isn't really "against" or "with" the grain - it's always both.

That is correct. BUT if you move it across the grain you are
introducing a non random direction as is with the grain. Now if you
move very slowly the effect might be less. Move fast enough so as to
not sand through the veneer on a piece of plywood and you see scratches
across the grain. I;m going to leave this where it is. I understand
the principal behind the random orbit, it creates scratch patterns that
are irregular. The moment you move the sander in any direction the more
that irregular pattern begins to leave a particular pattern.
When I bought my first ROS I thought differently too. 25 years of
experience is what I go by and going with the grain gives me better
results. Remember I am the guy that likes to sand, If I was not getting
good results I would not like it so much.

Ultimately do it the way you like.

Greg Guarino <[email protected]> writes:
>On 7/22/2014 9:11 AM, Leon wrote:
>> That is a little over kill. LOL BUT it should work. You don't quite
>> have to be that anal, sanding should be FUN! ;~)
>
>The proper degree of "anality" is what I've mostly been trying to get a
>grasp on with these questions. As always, the "answer" is a stew of all
>of the various responses I get here coupled with a bit of my own sense
>of things.
>
>As for sanding being fun ..


If you're not doing production work, you might find a hand scraper
superior to sandpaper, particularly when leveling face frames
and glued-up panels.

scott

On 7/21/2014 8:49 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 6/26/2014 7:36 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
>
>> I was amazed at how easy face frames became when my first ROS sanded
>> right across the corners with no scratches:-)
>
> So, is this the consensus? I can sand over the joints in a face frame
> with a random-orbit sander without cross-grain scratches? Is this only
> for finer grits?

What Leon, said.


> While we're at it: what about easing the edges on a face frame? Do you
> ease all the edges, thus making a visible line at each joint? Or do you
> assemble the face frame and then ease the exposed edges only; leaving
> the joint lines flush? (this question has nothing to do with a
> random-orbit sander, by the way)

Again, what Leon said, except add to that, "breaking"/easing the edges
has a valid purpose in finishing, other than mentioned by posters thus
far, such as for feel, appearance, and protection of edges from breaks
and splintering on impact.

Sprayed and/or painted top coat finishes have a tendency to build up on
sharp edges, which can often result in areas that may flake and/or show
an unevenness, sometimes even in shade/color.

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On 7/22/2014 6:08 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:

> I'm thinking I could machine sand as carefully as possible up to the
> line on the "bottom" piece of the "T", inevitably going over a little.
> But on the "top" piece, I could hand-sand without going over the edge at
> all for the last grit, especially if I were to make a custom sanding
> block with a "stop".

That's making this a bigger issue than it is in practice.

The rectangular pad of most "finish" sanders, and the small round pad of
most "compact" finish sanders, allows you to sand up to a line, or
joint, with enough accuracy for 99.9% of any desired sanding results,
and certainly without need of a "stop".

Mechanical sanders are tools, and like all tools, some use the same
tools in different ways to get the same result.

And, like all tools, you generally get what you pay for in performance.

I use a ROS (Festool Rotex 125) basically for rough sanding (60,80,100g)
and minor material removal;

...a finish sander (Festool RTS400EQ w/orbital motion) for finish
sanding (100, 120, 150, 180, 220);

...and a detail sander (Festool DTS400EQ w/orbital motion) for places
where I can't get the ROS or a finish sander.

90% of my sanding is done with the finish sander/RTS400EQ. YMMV

YMMV...

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On 7/21/2014 1:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> dadiOH wrote:
>
>>
>> It has nothing to do with randomness, nor orbital for that matter. It has
>> to do with the movement of the sander itself, not the motion
>> generated by the sander.
>
> I happen to agree with that statement and that's what I had said in my
> reply. But... I do defer to those who do finer work than I do (like Leon
> and Karl), and I do accept their opinions since they go way beyond the level
> of acceptance that I do.
>


Actually that is pretty much what I said and you disagreed.

What I said,

Actually the direction that you move the sander, ROS or finish sander,
is more important.

What you said,

I have to disagree with this statement Leon. It has nothing at all to
do with direction. I would say that it has something to do with the
speed at which you move in any direction - so as to allow the orbital
action to do its thing, but most certainly - not to do with the direction.


Basically if the ROS's direction of movement is against the grain you
are more likely to see scratches than if the direction of movement is in
the direction of the grain.

On Sunday, June 22, 2014 6:44:23 AM UTC-7, Greg Guarino wrote:
> The last couple of weekends have been busy and thus unproductive=20
>=20
> woodworking-wise. I'm trying to come up with an efficient regime to sand=
=20
>=20
> the lots and lots of repetitive parts that make up the two shelf units=20
>=20
> I'm building.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I made myself a little "corral" just big enough to immobilize four 9" x=
=20
>=20
> 1.5" pieces at a time (four 1/2" ply "fences" in a rectangle) for=20
>=20
> sanding. I will probably do something similar for the other size parts.=
=20
>=20
> Per advice here (distilled from several posters) I'm going to use (at=20
>=20
> least) 120 and 150 grit. The project is made of standard Lowe's-issue=20
>=20
> S4S red oak.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I have a random orbit sander and an old (1960's vintage, chrome)=20
>=20
> third-sheet finish sander. I'm wondering if I could possibly streamline=
=20
>=20
> the process by using both. I know it's easy enough to slap on another=20
>=20
> hook and loop disk, but I'll be doing that every minute or two, or=20
>=20
> alternatively setting up each batch of parts twice (or 3 times).
>=20
>=20
>=20
> If I can get good results using the finish sander for the finer grit, or=
=20
>=20
> possibly even for only the 180 if I decide that's necessary, it could=20
>=20
> save me from having to repeat one little irritating step over and over.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I can imagine several possible flaws in this plan, but I really don't=20
>=20
> have enough experience to know how much of a problem any of them would=20
>=20
> be. Until recently, finish sanders were all I had. Of course, my=20
>=20
> previous projects were composed mostly of plywood.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ---
>=20
> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus prot=
ection is active.
>=20
> http://www.avast.com

Wll, around my shop you will find those hard rubber sanding blocks with lab=
els painted on them of 100, 150, 220. I have at least two complete sets. Ke=
eping fresh paper on these you can sand just as fast, stay with the grain s=
wap grits in a second by dropping one block and grabbing the next.

For all projects, I power sand all the lumber to 150 after thicknessing is =
done and before cutting parts. I do the same for ply. I always start with 1=
00.

Then once the pats are just ready for assembly, I do a light 100, then a go=
od full pass with 150, using a light hand and then an even lighter hand wit=
h 220.

After assembly, it is a once over with worn 220 free hand before finishing.

On 7/22/2014 11:12 AM, Leon wrote:

> LOL, well hopefully one day you will be able to obtain equipment that
> works better and has stellar dust retention. When you can sand for
> hours, stop and walk inside and sit down with out bringing any dust it
> becomes more fun. ;)

Hey, I can do that! ... all but the "fun" part, that is. ;)

What I like about our particular choice of sanding equipment is how much
less time and effort it takes.

... giving me more time to find "fun" somewhere else. LOL

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On 7/22/2014 8:03 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> I have always looked at the round disk ROS sander as one to remove
>> bulk but with much more fineness than a belt sander. For the last
>> grits I almost always use a finish sander so that I can have more
>> control with direction. About the only time I will finish sand with
>> a ROS is when sanding large non-enclosed panels, cabinet sides or
>> tops. ROS's can't get into inside corners and are tough to hold flat
>> on the edge surface of a face frame, doors, drawers, anything narrow..
>>
>
> What do you use for a finish sander Leon?
>


For probably 25 years I used these. These would raise a cloud of dust
that you would not believe.

http://www.amazon.com/PORTER-CABLE-330-Speed-Bloc-Sheet-Sander/dp/B0000222Y9

After initially buying a Festool CT22 vac with the Domino, I eventually
added the Rotex sander and replaced the above sander with this.

http://festoolusa.com/power-tools/sanders/rts-400-eq-orbital-finish-sander-567863


As a side note here, unless I do some hand sanding I rarely will wipe
down or blow off a sanded surface before applying a finish. It works
that well at dust control.

On 7/21/2014 8:49 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 6/26/2014 7:36 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
>
>> I was amazed at how easy face frames became when my first ROS sanded
>> right across the corners with no scratches:-)
>
> So, is this the consensus? I can sand over the joints in a face frame
> with a random-orbit sander without cross-grain scratches? Is this only
> for finer grits?

Actually the direction that you move the sander, ROS or finish sander,
is more important. The scratches from both sanders are difficult to see
unless you work the sanders across the grain. I use a ROS on joints and
for my first 120 or 150 grit pass. Once every thing is smooth I move to
the next grit and typically to my finish sander and only moving the
sander in the direction of the grain.




>
> I can see that the random-orbit action does not obviously favor any
> particular direction, so I guess that answers the question. But being a
> novice, I have to ask.

See above.


>
> While we're at it: what about easing the edges on a face frame? Do you
> ease all the edges, thus making a visible line at each joint? Or do you
> assemble the face frame and then ease the exposed edges only; leaving
> the joint lines flush? (this question has nothing to do with a
> random-orbit sander, by the way)

Ease any edges that might become vulnerable to hits thus causing the
edge to break off. Also ease all edges that your body parts might come
in contact with. Ease only edges that are on the outside after
assembly. Don't ease the edge that will be a part of the joint surface.
Some styles of furniture have chamfered edges on all edges, meaning
all edges are given that profile before assembly. Don't do this when
simply easing the edges.



>
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On 7/21/2014 11:27 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 7/21/2014 9:49 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Greg Guarino wrote:
>>>> On 6/26/2014 7:36 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I was amazed at how easy face frames became when my first ROS
>>>>> sanded right across the corners with no scratches:-)
>>>>
>>>> So, is this the consensus? I can sand over the joints in a face
>>>> frame with a random-orbit sander without cross-grain scratches? Is
>>>> this only for finer grits?
>>>
>>> Try it Greg - you will see whatever you need to see. Better than
>>> asking here.
>>>
>>
>> Some times Mike you can be a real putz.
>
> Sometimes?
>
I was trying to be as gentle as I could. ;~)

My tolerance level is low lately. I'm the "asked to join" secretary of
the HOA and the VP has been setting a piss poor example of keeping the
appearance of his home up to the HOA rules and regulations. But I guess
like most politicians he must feel that he is exempt from the rules.

On 7/22/2014 11:29 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2014-07-22, Scott Lurndal <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> If you're not doing production work, you might find a hand scraper
>> superior to sandpaper, particularly when leveling face frames and
>> glued-up panels.
>
> Does anybody use a plane for tasks like this?

Absolutely, when I feel I will get better results, mainly due to the
wood and grain, by doing so.

On face frames, door and drawer frames, and other butt joins, I will
often start with a low angle block plane to get close enough to not
affect the adjoining piece, and maybe a card scraper, then follow up
with the appropriate sanding to get it to the final finished state.

It's never all brute sanding.

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"Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> The last couple of weekends have been busy and thus unproductive
> woodworking-wise. I'm trying to come up with an efficient regime to sand
> the lots and lots of repetitive parts that make up the two shelf units
> I'm building.
>
> I made myself a little "corral" just big enough to immobilize four 9" x
> 1.5" pieces at a time (four 1/2" ply "fences" in a rectangle) for
> sanding. I will probably do something similar for the other size parts.
> Per advice here (distilled from several posters) I'm going to use (at
> least) 120 and 150 grit. The project is made of standard Lowe's-issue
> S4S red oak.
>
> I have a random orbit sander and an old (1960's vintage, chrome)
> third-sheet finish sander. I'm wondering if I could possibly streamline
> the process by using both.

Sure. One grit on one, the other grit on the other.

Keep in mind that the finer grit is just to remove scratch marks made by the
coarser; that means that the coarser grit sanding should be thorough to
remove any mill marks, etc. IME, the proper sanding time is about twice as
long as what I think it should be :)

You might want to invest in a 1/4 sheet orbital sander; they are inexpensive
and I still prefer then to the ROS. And if you ever come across a now
defunct Porter-Cable 505 half sheet sander I would strongly suggest that you
buy it. They aren't much good on small things but on larger ones they are
the best finishing sanders I have ever used due, primarily, to the weight
and the thick felt pad.

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On 6/22/2014 11:53 AM, dadiOH wrote:

> They aren't much good on small things but on larger ones they are
> the best finishing sanders I have ever used due, primarily, to the weight
> and the thick felt pad.

That's exactly what I like about the old Rockwell I appropriated from my
Dad's garage.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6410114261/in/set-72157627751790027

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/10168131233/in/set-72157628183501013

That's not "chrome-ized" plastic; it's all metal. And the pad is dense
felt. Prior to digging out that sander I had a quarter-sheet Craftsman.
The vibration used to make my hand go numb after a while. Not so with
the Rockwell. Maybe it's just the weight, but the vibration transmitted
to my hand is greatly less.

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On 6/22/2014 10:09 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 6/22/2014 8:44 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>
>> I made myself a little "corral" just big enough to immobilize four 9" x
>> 1.5" pieces at a time (four 1/2" ply "fences" in a rectangle) for
>> sanding. I will probably do something similar for the other size parts.
>
> Much, much more efficient and time saving:
>
> http://www.rockler.com/non-slip-router-mat?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=&utm_content=pla&utm_campaign=PL&sid=V9146&gclid=CjkKEQjw_ZmdBRD1qNKXhomX_sEBEiQAc9XNULIspd_HTDYnPyI711_hjM2F_6UN9CcdVkDR-w4J_bTw_wcB

That looks exactly like something I've seen in my house somewhere; some
kind of non-skid stuff my wife bought in a housewares store. I'll bet
it's the same material. I'll have to ask her where it is.

But does that work decently for very small pieces?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/14211762232/

I've got a lot of them.

>
>> Per advice here (distilled from several posters) I'm going to use (at
>> least) 120 and 150 grit. The project is made of standard Lowe's-issue
>> S4S red oak.
>>
>> I have a random orbit sander and an old (1960's vintage, chrome)
>> third-sheet finish sander. I'm wondering if I could possibly streamline
>> the process by using both. I know it's easy enough to slap on another
>> hook and loop disk, but I'll be doing that every minute or two, or
>> alternatively setting up each batch of parts twice (or 3 times).
>
> Absolutely use both. IME, even those old "finish" sanders that don't
> orbit should do nicely for your final grit as long as you sand with the
> grain. Especially important to either dust or blow off each piece after
> each grit.

This one (an old Rockwell) orbits.

> Factors are any milling/sanding marks, and also the color of the stain.
> IME, and in most common woods, darker colored stains often highlight
> milling/sanding marks less than lighter colors.
>
>>
>> If I can get good results using the finish sander for the finer grit, or
>> possibly even for only the 180 if I decide that's necessary, it could
>> save me from having to repeat one little irritating step over and over.
>
> Can see no reason not. Be doing a lot of sanding this past week in
> preparation for staining a much larger project and used three sanders,
> with 100, 120, 150g respectively.




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On Sun, 22 Jun 2014 12:18:20 -0400, Greg Guarino wrote:

>> Absolutely use both. IME, even those old "finish" sanders that don't
>> orbit should do nicely for your final grit as long as you sand with the
>> grain. Especially important to either dust or blow off each piece after
>> each grit.
>
> This one (an old Rockwell) orbits.

Make sure the "orbit" is random. I seem to remember the orbits were not
random. If you use one of those you'll get cross-grain scratches.

"Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On 6/22/2014 11:53 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>
> > They aren't much good on small things but on larger ones they are
> > the best finishing sanders I have ever used due, primarily, to the
> > weight and the thick felt pad.
>
> That's exactly what I like about the old Rockwell I appropriated from my
> Dad's garage.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6410114261/in/set-72157627751790027
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/10168131233/in/set-72157628183501013
>
> That's not "chrome-ized" plastic; it's all metal. And the pad is dense
> felt. Prior to digging out that sander I had a quarter-sheet Craftsman.
> The vibration used to make my hand go numb after a while. Not so with
> the Rockwell. Maybe it's just the weight, but the vibration transmitted
> to my hand is greatly less.

There have been so many tool company buyouts/mergers that it is hard to know
who made what but yours looks basically the same as the one I mentioned. If
it works well, treat it well, it is a definite keeper.



--

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____________________________

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On 6/22/2014 4:59 PM, dadiOH wrote:> "Greg Guarino"
<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> On 6/22/2014 11:53 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>>
>>> They aren't much good on small things but on larger ones they are
>>> the best finishing sanders I have ever used due, primarily, to the
>>> weight and the thick felt pad.
>>
>> That's exactly what I like about the old Rockwell I appropriated from my
>> Dad's garage.
>>
>>
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6410114261/in/set-72157627751790027
>>
>>
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/10168131233/in/set-72157628183501013
>>
>> That's not "chrome-ized" plastic; it's all metal. And the pad is dense
>> felt. Prior to digging out that sander I had a quarter-sheet Craftsman.
>> The vibration used to make my hand go numb after a while. Not so with
>> the Rockwell. Maybe it's just the weight, but the vibration transmitted
>> to my hand is greatly less.
>
> There have been so many tool company buyouts/mergers that it is hard
to know
> who made what but yours looks basically the same as the one I
mentioned. If
> it works well, treat it well, it is a definite keeper.
>
>
>
There's one on Ebay for $40, but it's not as shiny. :)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Porter-Cable-Rockwell-Model-106B-1-3-Sheet-Sander-CLEAN-WORKING-/121350318232?pt=Sanders_Sandblasters&hash=item1c410ae898

I visit my parents most evenings these days. I had another browse in the
garage this evening. I found another sander, a Black and Decker 7320 1/3
sheet. It's probably of a similar vintage, all metal, chrome finish. No
corrosion at all. I suppose the sealed ammo box it's been in for the
past several decades might have helped.

I turned it on briefly and tried sanding a piece of scrap. It doesn't
feel quite as solid and smooth as the Rockwell, but it wasn't too bad.
Noisier too. It could still be of some use. The pad is some sort of foam
rubber rather than felt and is a little beaten around the edges. Still
seems flat over the active area though.

Interestingly, there is a lever that selects between "orbital" and
"straight-line" action. The manual (which can be found here:

http://servicenet.blackanddecker.com/Products/Detail/7420#

... in all it's typewritten glory)

recommends orbital for faster material removal and straight-line for a
fine finish.

I couldn't move the lever at first (it's almost inaccessible between the
plate and the main housing), but knowing that my Dad wouldn't have
thrown out any accessories, I had a look in the ammo box. Lo and behold;
a little plastic "handle" that slips over the lever.

I tried both settings. There is definitely a difference; the "orbital"
setting is significantly more "orbital" than the straight-line setting.
But judging by eye, there seems to still be a minor amount of "orbit" in
the straight-line setting as well. I'll give it a more thorough test at
some point.

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On 6/22/2014 7:55 PM, Leon wrote:> On 6/22/2014 8:44 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>> The last couple of weekends have been busy and thus unproductive
>> woodworking-wise. I'm trying to come up with an efficient regime to sand
>> the lots and lots of repetitive parts that make up the two shelf units
>> I'm building.
>>
>> I made myself a little "corral" just big enough to immobilize four 9" x
>> 1.5" pieces at a time (four 1/2" ply "fences" in a rectangle) for
>> sanding. I will probably do something similar for the other size parts.
>> Per advice here (distilled from several posters) I'm going to use (at
>> least) 120 and 150 grit. The project is made of standard Lowe's-issue
>> S4S red oak.
>
> Sand the pieces in larger sections "before" you cut them apart. Sand a
> 9" x 7" piece first then rip them apart. Now you only have a half the
> edges to sand.

I thought of that, *after* I cut up all of the pieces, naturally . I'm
afraid that ripping small pieces like that is difficult with my tool
(and personal) limitations; I started with stock of the proper finished
cross-section (1x3 and 1x2). Still, I think I could have sanded the
uncut stock.

> Stack several pieces together on a flat surface. On both sides of the
> stack lay a longer piece of wood, thinner than the stack. Use a bar
> clamp on both ends of the boards to squeeze every thing together.

I set up something similar without clamps, a four-sided "corral" made of
thinner stock (1/2" ply) screwed into the work surface. The pieces fit
in it snugly. It may work out.
>
> Or lay them all down on double stick tape
>
> Or http://www.jettools.com/us/en/p/10-20-plus-benchtop-sander/628900

Extravagant for a guy who doesn't even have a table saw. :)
>
> Definitely use all of your sanders with different grits attached.

I just unearthed a third sander. I may indeed use three sanders and
avoid changing paper entirely, but we'll see how well the "new" (circa
1970 I'm guessing) one works.





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"Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> I visit my parents most evenings these days. I had another browse in the
> garage this evening. I found another sander, a Black and Decker 7320 1/3
> sheet. It's probably of a similar vintage, all metal, chrome finish. No
> corrosion at all. I suppose the sealed ammo box it's been in for the
> past several decades might have helped.
>
> I turned it on briefly and tried sanding a piece of scrap. It doesn't
> feel quite as solid and smooth as the Rockwell, but it wasn't too bad.
> Noisier too. It could still be of some use. The pad is some sort of foam
> rubber rather than felt and is a little beaten around the edges. Still
> seems flat over the active area though.
>
> Interestingly, there is a lever that selects between "orbital" and
> "straight-line" action.

I have one of those too, circa 1965-70. Mine is Craftsman but may well be a
branded B&D. Works OK but I rarely use it, not nearly as good as the Porter
Cable 1/2 sheet sander. I also have a Hitachi 1/2 sheet, rarely use it
either for the same reason; also, not as heavy, hard rubber platen...works
best if stuff is already dead flat.

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On 6/22/2014 12:47 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jun 2014 12:18:20 -0400, Greg Guarino wrote:
>
>>> Absolutely use both. IME, even those old "finish" sanders that don't
>>> orbit should do nicely for your final grit as long as you sand with the
>>> grain. Especially important to either dust or blow off each piece after
>>> each grit.
>>
>> This one (an old Rockwell) orbits.
>
> Make sure the "orbit" is random. I seem to remember the orbits were not
> random. If you use one of those you'll get cross-grain scratches.
>
Well it isn't random, of course. These sanders predate Random-Orbit
action by over a decade. As far as I know, most "rectangular" sanders
are still not "random-orbit". Which is why I asked my original question.

Was everything that was machine-sanded before 1982 (and considerably
after, as ROS sanders didn't replace everything else all at once)
covered in nasty cross grain scratches?

The crux of my question was "can I profitably use orbital (not random)
sanders for finer grits?" My purpose is to avoid changing grits on my
(one) ROS repeatedly (or setting up each set of parts repeatedly) as I
sand the 56 (mostly very small) pieces that make up the frames of my
current project.

A couple of people have said yes, which makes sense to me as I never had
a ROS before recently and I don't remember poor results with the
Orbitals I used before. Of course, most of that work was with fine grits
on ply and some S4S trim. Or maybe I never looked closely enough?

I'm inclined to set up the three sanders I have with 120, 150 and
(perhaps) 180 for all of the Red Oak I need to sand. I'd use the ROS for
the coarsest grit, mostly to remove the planer marks from the
store-bought S4S lumber.

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On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 14:26:12 -0400, Greg Guarino wrote:

>> Make sure the "orbit" is random. I seem to remember the orbits were not
>> random. If you use one of those you'll get cross-grain scratches.
>>
> Well it isn't random, of course. These sanders predate Random-Orbit
> action by over a decade. As far as I know, most "rectangular" sanders
> are still not "random-orbit". Which is why I asked my original question.
>
> Was everything that was machine-sanded before 1982 (and considerably
> after, as ROS sanders didn't replace everything else all at once)
> covered in nasty cross grain scratches?

IIRC, the one I had (from Sears) did have the nasties. I used the
orbital mode for the coarsest grits and the straight line (with the
grain) for the finer ones.

I was amazed at how easy face frames became when my first ROS sanded
right across the corners with no scratches :-)

On 6/22/14 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 6/22/2014 8:44 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>> The last couple of weekends have been busy and thus unproductive
>> woodworking-wise. I'm trying to come up with an efficient regime to sand
>> the lots and lots of repetitive parts that make up the two shelf units
>> I'm building.
>>
>> I made myself a little "corral" just big enough to immobilize four 9" x
>> 1.5" pieces at a time (four 1/2" ply "fences" in a rectangle) for
>> sanding. I will probably do something similar for the other size parts.
>> Per advice here (distilled from several posters) I'm going to use (at
>> least) 120 and 150 grit. The project is made of standard Lowe's-issue
>> S4S red oak.
>
> Sand the pieces in larger sections "before" you cut them apart. Sand a
> 9" x 7" piece first then rip them apart. Now you only have a half the
> edges to sand.
>
> Stack several pieces together on a flat surface. On both sides of the
> stack lay a longer piece of wood, thinner than the stack. Use a bar
> clamp on both ends of the boards to squeeze every thing together.

Amen to this!
I do this often for end grain on shelves and such. It also has the
benefit of avoiding rounding over the edges.

-BR

>
> Or lay them all down on double stick tape
>
> Or http://www.jettools.com/us/en/p/10-20-plus-benchtop-sander/628900
>
> Definitely use all of your sanders with different grits attached.
>
>
>>
>> I have a random orbit sander and an old (1960's vintage, chrome)
>> third-sheet finish sander. I'm wondering if I could possibly streamline
>> the process by using both. I know it's easy enough to slap on another
>> hook and loop disk, but I'll be doing that every minute or two, or
>> alternatively setting up each batch of parts twice (or 3 times).
>>
>> If I can get good results using the finish sander for the finer grit, or
>> possibly even for only the 180 if I decide that's necessary, it could
>> save me from having to repeat one little irritating step over and over.
>>
>> I can imagine several possible flaws in this plan, but I really don't
>> have enough experience to know how much of a problem any of them would
>> be. Until recently, finish sanders were all I had. Of course, my
>> previous projects were composed mostly of plywood.
>>
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On 6/26/2014 7:36 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:

> I was amazed at how easy face frames became when my first ROS sanded
> right across the corners with no scratches:-)

So, is this the consensus? I can sand over the joints in a face frame
with a random-orbit sander without cross-grain scratches? Is this only
for finer grits?

I can see that the random-orbit action does not obviously favor any
particular direction, so I guess that answers the question. But being a
novice, I have to ask.

While we're at it: what about easing the edges on a face frame? Do you
ease all the edges, thus making a visible line at each joint? Or do you
assemble the face frame and then ease the exposed edges only; leaving
the joint lines flush? (this question has nothing to do with a
random-orbit sander, by the way)

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"Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> While we're at it: what about easing the edges on a face frame? Do you
> ease all the edges, thus making a visible line at each joint? Or do you
> assemble the face frame and then ease the exposed edges only; leaving
> the joint lines flush? (this question has nothing to do with a
> random-orbit sander, by the way)

I ease edges after assembly; however, unlike Leon, I do the inside edges
as well simply because I like the look. One needs to exercise a bit of
caution where two pieces meet; if oneis really anal, one can make that
union look like it had been coped.

There are times when an eased inside edge is useful (as well as esthetic),
either between two pieces in the same component or two different
components. For example, the inside edge of a breadboard end is often
eased as are the butting face frame edges in a row of cabinets. It is
called a "quirk" and is useful because - expecially in the case of
cabinets - it is close to impossible to get the abutting face frame edges
perfectly aligned.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
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Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 6/26/2014 7:36 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
>
>> I was amazed at how easy face frames became when my first ROS sanded
>> right across the corners with no scratches:-)
>
> So, is this the consensus? I can sand over the joints in a face frame
> with a random-orbit sander without cross-grain scratches? Is this only
> for finer grits?

Try it Greg - you will see whatever you need to see. Better than asking
here.

>
> I can see that the random-orbit action does not obviously favor any
> particular direction, so I guess that answers the question. But being
> a novice, I have to ask.

Oh... no you don't. You've proven yourself pretty adept at putting your
hand to new ideas. Just put your hand to this. Give it a try...


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Leon wrote:

>
> Actually the direction that you move the sander, ROS or finish sander,
> is more important.

I have to disagree with this statement Leon. It has nothing at all to do
with direction. I would say that it has something to do with the speed at
which you move in any direction - so as to allow the orbital action to do
its thing, but most certainly - not to do with the direction. It's
orbital - direction has no meaning. With a finish sander - ok - might agree
on that point.



--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 7/21/2014 10:49 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> So, is this the consensus? I can sand over the joints in a face frame
>> >with a random-orbit sander without cross-grain scratches? Is this only
>> >for finer grits?

> Try it Greg - you will see whatever you need to see. Better than asking
> here.

Family obligations have whittled (sanded? planed? sawn?) down my "hobby"
time to nearly nil lately. And anyway, without ignorant questions as a
seed, how would any woodworking discussions get stated around here?


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On Mon, 21 Jul 2014 10:54:06 -0400, Mike Marlow wrote:

> Leon wrote:
>
>
>> Actually the direction that you move the sander, ROS or finish sander,
>> is more important.
>
> I have to disagree with this statement Leon. It has nothing at all to
> do with direction. I would say that it has something to do with the
> speed at which you move in any direction - so as to allow the orbital
> action to do its thing, but most certainly - not to do with the
> direction. It's orbital - direction has no meaning. With a finish
> sander - ok - might agree on that point.

Since I seem to have triggered this discussion, I'll chime in.

I agree with Mike. I've never had a problem with cross grain scratches
using my ROS. Sure, you can see scratches in coarser grits, but they're
orbital, not directional. If Leon is seeing scratches most likely he's
either not going to a fine enough grit, he's bearing down too hard, or he
has an orbital sander, not a *random* orbital sander.

I can't state that there's no ROS that will do what Leon's does, but I
can state that mine (an old Bosch) doesn't.

Can the mechanism in an ROS fail in such a way as to eliminate the
randomness?

Leon wrote:
> On 7/21/2014 9:49 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Greg Guarino wrote:
>>> On 6/26/2014 7:36 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
>>>
>>>> I was amazed at how easy face frames became when my first ROS
>>>> sanded right across the corners with no scratches:-)
>>>
>>> So, is this the consensus? I can sand over the joints in a face
>>> frame with a random-orbit sander without cross-grain scratches? Is
>>> this only for finer grits?
>>
>> Try it Greg - you will see whatever you need to see. Better than
>> asking here.
>>
>
> Some times Mike you can be a real putz.

Sometimes?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 7/21/2014 12:37 PM, Swingman wrote:
>
> IME, ROS sanding scratches do show up on crossgrain (proportionate to
> the coarseness of the grit) much more than on long grain when using a
> ROS across a crossgrain joint, like a rail and stile, even with a top
> quality random orbit sander.
>
> Unfinished, you might never see them, but they have a tendency to become
> much more evident under a stain and topcoat.
>
>> If Leon is seeing scratches most likely he's
>> either not going to a fine enough grit, he's bearing down too hard, or he
>> has an orbital sander, not a*random* orbital sander.
>
> Leon uses a 5" Festool ROS, IIRC ... and one look, up close and
> personal, at anything he builds and finishes will tell you, without
> equivocation, that he indeed he is a master at using it. ;)
>
> Again IME, and because there are a myriad of reasons where you do not
> want to sand past a certain grit, heeding Leon's advice regarding
> following grain direction when using a ROS, may well save a project you
> just thought that, by using a ROS without regard to grain, there would
> be no problems with sanding marks showing up after a stain and topcoat
> was applied.

As often happens, I don't see a clear answer. Still, I usually learn
something. Here's why I asked:

For those of you who have forgotten, or figure I MUST have moved on to
a new project by now, I'm building two of these:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/14345718026/in/set-72157644207411490

(plus shelves and a top, of course)

I've made essentially no progress at all since the dry fit pictured in
the photo. (family obligations) As you can see, the project is composed
practically entirely of face-frame-like components. I think I did a fair
job of lining up the dowel holes that will hold it all together, but
especially after sanding all of the pieces individually, I'm sure the
joints on the ladder sides won't be exactly flat.

I had considered easing the edges on the parts (including the ends of
the "rungs") before assembly, leaving an deliberate line between the
rungs and uprights. But the fit was pretty good in the dry fit, leading
me to wonder if I could sand over the joints somehow to fix any
imperfections.

I would normally have guessed the answer was "no". But Larry Blanchard's
suggested otherwise. So do you guys simply have sufficient accuracy that
this never comes up? Or is there some method you use to sand the joints
flat?

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"Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On Mon, 21 Jul 2014 10:54:06 -0400, Mike Marlow wrote:
>
> > Leon wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Actually the direction that you move the sander, ROS or finish
> > > sander,
> > > is more important.
> >
> > I have to disagree with this statement Leon. It has nothing at all to
> > do with direction. I would say that it has something to do with the
> > speed at which you move in any direction - so as to allow the orbital
> > action to do its thing, but most certainly - not to do with the
> > direction. It's orbital - direction has no meaning. With a finish
> > sander - ok - might agree on that point.
>
> Since I seem to have triggered this discussion, I'll chime in.
>
> I agree with Mike. I've never had a problem with cross grain scratches
> using my ROS. Sure, you can see scratches in coarser grits, but they're
> orbital, not directional. If Leon is seeing scratches most likely he's
> either not going to a fine enough grit, he's bearing down too hard, or
> he
> has an orbital sander, not a *random* orbital sander.
>
> I can't state that there's no ROS that will do what Leon's does, but I
> can state that mine (an old Bosch) doesn't.
>
> Can the mechanism in an ROS fail in such a way as to eliminate the
> randomness?

It has nothing to do with randomness, nor orbital for that matter. It has
to do with the movement of the sander itself, not the motion generated by
the sander.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> I had considered easing the edges on the parts (including the ends of
> the "rungs") before assembly, leaving an deliberate line between the
> rungs and uprights. But the fit was pretty good in the dry fit, leading
> me to wonder if I could sand over the joints somehow to fix any
> imperfections.
>
> I would normally have guessed the answer was "no". But Larry Blanchard's
> suggested otherwise. So do you guys simply have sufficient accuracy that
> this never comes up? Or is there some method you use to sand the joints
> flat?

I always do finish sanding afrer assembly. My only method is to use a
1/2 sheet - sometimes - 1/4 sheet depending upon area - which gets joints
nice and even. I don't use my ROS for two reasons...1. I don't like them
and, 2. the 1/2 sheet does a better job IME.

In the case of your "ladders". I might well have cut a "small V" quirk; it
could save a lot of work and could look good.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

dadiOH wrote:

>
> It has nothing to do with randomness, nor orbital for that matter. It has
> to do with the movement of the sander itself, not the motion
> generated by the sander.

I happen to agree with that statement and that's what I had said in my
reply. But... I do defer to those who do finer work than I do (like Leon
and Karl), and I do accept their opinions since they go way beyond the level
of acceptance that I do.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote

> Can the mechanism in an ROS fail in such a way as to eliminate the
> randomness?

Most definitely. You would notice it, because the normally tame sander
turns into a grinding disk instead of a ROS.

There is a ball bearing that can tie up due to the fine dust, but a high
quality sander has a good enough seal that it is unlikely to seize. That
being said, I have seen it happen.
--
Jim in NC


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On 7/21/2014 3:23 PM, Swingman wrote:

> Depending upon the severity, most of these can be taken care with a
> finish sander, or the "aggressive" setting on a ROS if need be, and you
> have one that will do that.

I have finish sanders and a single-setting ROS (DeWalt). But what I'm
asking is, do I sand right over the joint? Grits?


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On 7/21/2014 3:23 PM, Swingman wrote:

> Many folks who own one, as well as just about every cabinet shop that
> specializes in items that use that type joinery, will routinely run all
> their doors, face frames, door fronts, and anything with that similar
> type joinery, through a large drum sander as a matter of course.

I'm aware of this. But it has often made me wonder how the cross-grain
sanding doesn't produce bad effects.


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Leon wrote:
> On 7/21/2014 1:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> dadiOH wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> It has nothing to do with randomness, nor orbital for that matter.
>>> It has to do with the movement of the sander itself, not the motion
>>> generated by the sander.
>>
>> I happen to agree with that statement and that's what I had said in
>> my reply. But... I do defer to those who do finer work than I do
>> (like Leon and Karl), and I do accept their opinions since they go
>> way beyond the level of acceptance that I do.
>>
>
>
> Actually that is pretty much what I said and you disagreed.
>
> What I said,
>
> Actually the direction that you move the sander, ROS or finish sander,
> is more important.
>
> What you said,
>
> I have to disagree with this statement Leon. It has nothing at all to
> do with direction. I would say that it has something to do with the
> speed at which you move in any direction - so as to allow the orbital
> action to do its thing, but most certainly - not to do with the
> direction.

So - you are correct Leon. Allow me to explain if I may. You are correct
in calling me out on this but my point is that the negative affect of cross
hatch is going to be more driven by how the sander is used than by its
direction. I know - that is a complete contradiction to what I said above,
and I apologize for that. The direction is somewhat irrelevant because it
is an orbital sander. What really plays into the finish is how long one
keeps the sander in any given area - how slowly or how quicly they move the
sander to minimize the effect of crosshatch. I know - I said it completely
wrong the first time - my bad.

>
> Basically if the ROS's direction of movement is against the grain you
> are more likely to see scratches than if the direction of movement is
> in the direction of the grain.

But ROS isn't really "against" or "with" the grain - it's always both.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> I have finish sanders and a single-setting ROS (DeWalt). But what I'm
> asking is, do I sand right over the joint? Grits?

Belt sand any really bad high spots with 120, go to 120 with ROS and sand
over the whole thing, joints and all, then 150 if painted, and 220 if
stained. I threw away my finish sanders. It always seemed I got a piece of
sandpaper that had some larger rocks in them, then it mad swirls all in my
piece. Not a problem with the ROS. Also, speed is key. If you have a
single speed, go down and get a ceiling fan motor speed controller, and put
it in a box with a male and female plug to run the sander. Not ideal, but it
works.

That is what I do, anyway. YMMV.
--
Jim in NC


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On 7/21/2014 10:05 AM, Leon wrote:

> Once every thing is smooth I move to the next grit and typically to my
> finish sander and only moving the sander in the direction of the grain.

And right at the tee-joint line ... what? Do you try to just barely
touch the edge? I'm trying to get an idea of how big an issue this is.

I'm thinking I could machine sand as carefully as possible up to the
line on the "bottom" piece of the "T", inevitably going over a little.
But on the "top" piece, I could hand-sand without going over the edge at
all for the last grit, especially if I were to make a custom sanding
block with a "stop".

Like this:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/14529789927/

But I have a feeling you guys don't do anything like that.


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Leon wrote:

>
> I have always looked at the round disk ROS sander as one to remove
> bulk but with much more fineness than a belt sander. For the last
> grits I almost always use a finish sander so that I can have more
> control with direction. About the only time I will finish sand with
> a ROS is when sanding large non-enclosed panels, cabinet sides or
> tops. ROS's can't get into inside corners and are tough to hold flat
> on the edge surface of a face frame, doors, drawers, anything narrow..
>

What do you use for a finish sander Leon?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On 7/21/2014 10:05 AM, Leon wrote:
>
> > Once every thing is smooth I move to the next grit and typically to my
> > finish sander and only moving the sander in the direction of the
> > grain.
>
> And right at the tee-joint line ... what? Do you try to just barely
> touch the edge? I'm trying to get an idea of how big an issue this is.
>
> I'm thinking I could machine sand as carefully as possible up to the
> line on the "bottom" piece of the "T", inevitably going over a little.
> But on the "top" piece, I could hand-sand without going over the edge at
> all for the last grit, especially if I were to make a custom sanding
> block with a "stop".
>
> Like this:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/14529789927/
>
> But I have a feeling you guys don't do anything like that.

Right.

You are making a bigger deal out of this than it is. Just sand the damn
thing :)

While I do try to direct sanding to the high edge, if the sander slops
over a bit onto the lower, just move it away a little. If you are
skeptical, just make a throwaway joint and sand it to prove to yourself
that all will be fine.

Regardless of how carefully you sand, there is going to be an area that is
not in the same plane as the rest; however, it is minute and not
noticeable. The only way to avoid it is to take down the WHOLE assembly
until the joints are flush and then finish sand. That is one of the handy
features of a drum sander. Of course, when you do that, the whole
assembly is a skosh thinner than you planned. No big deal, it doesn't
matter...in my life, at least, a face frame etc. that winds up 47/64
hick - or even less - rather than 3/4 is perfectly fine.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 7/22/2014 9:11 AM, Leon wrote:
> That is a little over kill. LOL BUT it should work. You don't quite
> have to be that anal, sanding should be FUN! ;~)

The proper degree of "anality" is what I've mostly been trying to get a
grasp on with these questions. As always, the "answer" is a stew of all
of the various responses I get here coupled with a bit of my own sense
of things.

As for sanding being fun ...

I have to say, I got a small amount of pleasure from hand-sanding the
curved surfaces. But repetitive machine sanding is still a chore.

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On Mon, 21 Jul 2014 16:21:38 -0500, Leon wrote:

> Now having said that I too have used a Bosch ROS. By comparison it was
> much less aggressive and beyond noticeably slower than both the PC and
> the Rotex in ROS mode so perhaps some ROS sanders don't display that
> scratch pattern but IMHO the whole purpose to use a ROS over a finish
> sander is to speed up the sanding process.

Well, I certainly don't tout the Bosch for stock removal :-). I use it
as a finish sander. It is less aggressive and is variable speed, so
perhaps that accounts for the lack of scratches I see.

All sanders leave scratches, but by the time I get to 220 I can't see
them. And I usually finish with clear shellac (SealCoat). I do work
through all the grits - it seems to be faster than skipping grits.

P.S. I hand sand the shellac - a power sander melts it :-).

On 2014-07-22, Scott Lurndal <[email protected]> wrote:

> If you're not doing production work, you might find a hand scraper
> superior to sandpaper, particularly when leveling face frames and
> glued-up panels.

Does anybody use a plane for tasks like this?

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! Where's th' DAFFY
at DUCK EXHIBIT??
gmail.com

"Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote
>
> How do you sand inside corners with a round disk?

Inside corners, are inside. Don't need sanded, do they? <g>

Really, I guess I did not get rid of everything that is not a ROS. I still
have a couple triangle shaped detail sanders for inside corners and such.
It still seems to save a lot of time using the ROS for all that I am able to
reach.
--
Jim in NC


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"Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote
>
> LOL, well hopefully one day you will be able to obtain equipment that
> works better and has stellar dust retention. When you can sand for hours,
> stop and walk inside and sit down with out bringing any dust it becomes
> more fun. ;)

Dust? That's what I like about my ROS. It makes lots of it. Tons. I got
a motor off of a 5 HP air compressor and converted it into a ROS. It is
heavy, but it will sand like a Manchurian Devil digging in the desert.
Using a 220 3 phase drop cord is cumbersome, but you get used to it, in the
search for the ultimate sanding job. I use 5/4" rough sawn lumber for face
frames and sand it all down to 3/4". I start out with # 2 grit sandpaper,
moving 1/2 grit closer to 1000 grit on every pass. Yep, that's right.
Almost 2,000 different grits before I use any finish.

Nothing is more satisfying than coming out of the woodshop, and shaking like
a dog, and seeing the whole neighborhood disappear under a fine coating of
dust. Honey bees flee in confusion, as they can't tell what is pollen and
what is dust. I also try to remember to blow my nose every time I stop
sanding. You have instant wood putty for cracks and nail holes that match
the wood you are working on sanding, and because it is water based, it takes
stain perfectly once it gets dry. Then I immediately start up the stairs
and track footprints through the house on the way to the den and my beloved
LazyBoy to take a break. When I get up, I beat on the chair with a broom to
get all of the dust back up into the air. After all, the multiple HEPA air
filters I have are expensive and should have to do some heavy lifting in
order to be justified in running 24/7. I had to upgrade to a 400 Amp
service to keep from blowing the main breaker with all of these magnificent
machines running all day and night.

To get the dust off of the frames, and out of the shop, I usually get the
water hose out, and spray down the entire shop. I can then tell which
machines are low on wax, when they immediately start to rust. Part of my
preventative maintenance program. The water goes on the wood I had been
sanding, of course, and raises all of the grain, which is why I sand it all
to 1000 grit to start with. After the grain raises, it looks like everyone
else's sanding jobs, less all of the swirls and marks that you get from all
of the finish sanders and such most people use.

So there, the real secret is out. How to sand stuff before you put smooth
stuff over it. <g>

Gosh sakes, people. Experiment a little. Each wood, each sander, each
project is different. Sand it until it looks good, then put some shiny stuff
on it.

I hope my guide has been useful, or at least entertaining.

PS. Not too many forests were harmed in the making of these cabinets. Just
2 or 3. The particulates that went into the air are my way of combating
global warming, which makes up for it.
--
Jim in NC


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Morgans wrote:

>
> Nothing is more satisfying than coming out of the woodshop, and
> shaking like a dog, and seeing the whole neighborhood disappear under
> a fine coating of dust. Honey bees flee in confusion, as they can't
> tell what is pollen and what is dust. I also try to remember to
> blow my nose every time I stop sanding.

I just let it harden in and then pick it out...

> You have instant wood putty

Yup!


> Then I immediately start up the stairs and track
> footprints through the house on the way to the den and my beloved
> LazyBoy to take a break. When I get up, I beat on the chair with a
> broom to get all of the dust back up into the air.

Now this is a guy that is just after a man's heart!


>
> So there, the real secret is out. How to sand stuff before you put
> smooth stuff over it. <g>
>
> Gosh sakes, people. Experiment a little. Each wood, each sander,
> each project is different. Sand it until it looks good, then put some
> shiny stuff on it.

And... if you've got some swirl marks, put more of that stuff on to fill
them...


>
> I hope my guide has been useful, or at least entertaining.

Very!


>
> PS. Not too many forests were harmed in the making of these
> cabinets. Just 2 or 3. The particulates that went into the air are
> my way of combating global warming, which makes up for it.

Plus - they are organic and must provide some sort of gardening benefit.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 7/21/2014 10:53 PM, Morgans wrote:
>
>
> "Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>> I have finish sanders and a single-setting ROS (DeWalt). But what I'm
>> asking is, do I sand right over the joint? Grits?
>
> Belt sand any really bad high spots with 120, go to 120 with ROS and
> sand over the whole thing, joints and all, then 150 if painted, and 220
> if stained. I threw away my finish sanders.

How do you sand inside corners with a round disk?



It always seemed I got a
> piece of sandpaper that had some larger rocks in them, then it mad
> swirls all in my piece.

This can easily happen with any sander if you are not using a vac to
capture dust and or do not wipe down the surface between grits. OR if
you are using marginal quality sand paper.



Not a problem with the ROS. Also, speed is
> key. If you have a single speed, go down and get a ceiling fan motor
> speed controller, and put it in a box with a male and female plug to run
> the sander. Not ideal, but it works.
>
> That is what I do, anyway. YMMV.

On 6/22/2014 8:44 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:

> I made myself a little "corral" just big enough to immobilize four 9" x
> 1.5" pieces at a time (four 1/2" ply "fences" in a rectangle) for
> sanding. I will probably do something similar for the other size parts.

Much, much more efficient and time saving:

http://www.rockler.com/non-slip-router-mat?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=&utm_content=pla&utm_campaign=PL&sid=V9146&gclid=CjkKEQjw_ZmdBRD1qNKXhomX_sEBEiQAc9XNULIspd_HTDYnPyI711_hjM2F_6UN9CcdVkDR-w4J_bTw_wcB


> Per advice here (distilled from several posters) I'm going to use (at
> least) 120 and 150 grit. The project is made of standard Lowe's-issue
> S4S red oak.
>
> I have a random orbit sander and an old (1960's vintage, chrome)
> third-sheet finish sander. I'm wondering if I could possibly streamline
> the process by using both. I know it's easy enough to slap on another
> hook and loop disk, but I'll be doing that every minute or two, or
> alternatively setting up each batch of parts twice (or 3 times).

Absolutely use both. IME, even those old "finish" sanders that don't
orbit should do nicely for your final grit as long as you sand with the
grain. Especially important to either dust or blow off each piece after
each grit.

Factors are any milling/sanding marks, and also the color of the stain.
IME, and in most common woods, darker colored stains often highlight
milling/sanding marks less than lighter colors.

>
> If I can get good results using the finish sander for the finer grit, or
> possibly even for only the 180 if I decide that's necessary, it could
> save me from having to repeat one little irritating step over and over.

Can see no reason not. Be doing a lot of sanding this past week in
preparation for staining a much larger project and used three sanders,
with 100, 120, 150g respectively.

--
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 7/22/2014 3:46 PM, Morgans wrote:

> Nothing is more satisfying than coming out of the woodshop, and shaking
> like a dog, and seeing the whole neighborhood disappear under a fine
> coating of dust.

> So there, the real secret is out. How to sand stuff before you put
> smooth stuff over it. <g>

LOL ... reminds of the time I was required to remove, as the contractor,
a tree that we supposedly murdered as a result of new residential
construction a few months before ... bogus, but you can't fight city
hall and expect to get permits approved in a timely manner ... and yes,
they actually do hold what is in effect a "tree murder" court.

A 30" in diameter pecan tree, and when the removal crew felled it, it
was basically a thin shell, from roots to top branches, full of dust
from years of an insect infestation, and the cloud of dust that ensued
in cutting it up in pieces small enough to haul off blanketed the
neighborhood for blocks.

Saw the cloud of dust as I was driving to the site, knew instinctively
what had happened, and without stopping, went straight to the local car
wash and purchased $200 worth of gift cards to present to the adjacent
neighbors on two streets to get their vehicles washed ... turned out to
have been a prudent, cost of doing business, move. ;)

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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 7/22/2014 8:55 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 7/22/2014 9:11 AM, Leon wrote:
>> That is a little over kill. LOL BUT it should work. You don't quite
>> have to be that anal, sanding should be FUN! ;~)
>
> The proper degree of "anality" is what I've mostly been trying to get a
> grasp on with these questions. As always, the "answer" is a stew of all
> of the various responses I get here coupled with a bit of my own sense
> of things.

Let results be your gauge. Don't be afraid of a project not being
perfect as you will certainly be over doing on many steps. Build a
small and a bit complicated shop box and stain it and don't over think
it. Learn from those results.




>
> As for sanding being fun ...
>
> I have to say, I got a small amount of pleasure from hand-sanding the
> curved surfaces. But repetitive machine sanding is still a chore.
>


LOL, well hopefully one day you will be able to obtain equipment that
works better and has stellar dust retention. When you can sand for
hours, stop and walk inside and sit down with out bringing any dust it
becomes more fun. ;)



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On 7/22/2014 6:08 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 7/21/2014 10:05 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>> Once every thing is smooth I move to the next grit and typically to my
>> finish sander and only moving the sander in the direction of the grain.
>
> And right at the tee-joint line ... what? Do you try to just barely
> touch the edge? I'm trying to get an idea of how big an issue this is.

If you are talking about the butt joint where like a rail and stile
join, I sand that with ROS usually down to 150 grit and pay no
attention to grain. Then the transition or joint is smooth I switch to
my finish sander and the same 150 grit and will try to only move the
sander in the direction of the grain. I first run the sander along the
piece that runs into the other. If I go too far, into the mating board
with the grain running 90 degrees to the piece I am sanding, I work that
out when I sand the other piece. It is easier sanding in this order
than sanding in reverse to that order. Then I do the same with 180
grit and the finish sander. Because finish sanders typically use
rectangular pieces of sand paper it is easier to control exactly what
you are sanding.

I have always looked at the round disk ROS sander as one to remove bulk
but with much more fineness than a belt sander. For the last grits I
almost always use a finish sander so that I can have more control with
direction. About the only time I will finish sand with a ROS is when
sanding large non-enclosed panels, cabinet sides or tops. ROS's can't
get into inside corners and are tough to hold flat on the edge surface
of a face frame, doors, drawers, anything narrow..



>
> I'm thinking I could machine sand as carefully as possible up to the
> line on the "bottom" piece of the "T", inevitably going over a little.
> But on the "top" piece, I could hand-sand without going over the edge at
> all for the last grit, especially if I were to make a custom sanding
> block with a "stop".
>
> Like this:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/14529789927/
>
> But I have a feeling you guys don't do anything like that.
>
>
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On 7/22/2014 11:22 AM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Jul 2014 16:21:38 -0500, Leon wrote:
>
>> Now having said that I too have used a Bosch ROS. By comparison it was
>> much less aggressive and beyond noticeably slower than both the PC and
>> the Rotex in ROS mode so perhaps some ROS sanders don't display that
>> scratch pattern but IMHO the whole purpose to use a ROS over a finish
>> sander is to speed up the sanding process.
>
> Well, I certainly don't tout the Bosch for stock removal :-). I use it
> as a finish sander. It is less aggressive and is variable speed, so
> perhaps that accounts for the lack of scratches I see.
>
> All sanders leave scratches, but by the time I get to 220 I can't see
> them. And I usually finish with clear shellac (SealCoat). I do work
> through all the grits - it seems to be faster than skipping grits.
>
> P.S. I hand sand the shellac - a power sander melts it :-).
>


And your methods very well may work better for you than they would for
me. I am not sure I even own any grit past 180. ;~) And I mostly only
use rub on gel varnishes and stains on occasion.

On 7/22/2014 11:42 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 7/22/2014 11:12 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>> LOL, well hopefully one day you will be able to obtain equipment that
>> works better and has stellar dust retention. When you can sand for
>> hours, stop and walk inside and sit down with out bringing any dust it
>> becomes more fun. ;)
>
> Hey, I can do that! ... all but the "fun" part, that is. ;)
>
> What I like about our particular choice of sanding equipment is how much
> less time and effort it takes.
>
> ... giving me more time to find "fun" somewhere else. LOL
>


;!) I was actually surprised at how long the paper lasts

On 7/21/2014 9:28 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> "Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>
>> While we're at it: what about easing the edges on a face frame? Do you
>> ease all the edges, thus making a visible line at each joint? Or do you
>> assemble the face frame and then ease the exposed edges only; leaving
>> the joint lines flush? (this question has nothing to do with a
>> random-orbit sander, by the way)
>
> I ease edges after assembly; however, unlike Leon, I do the inside edges
> as well simply because I like the look. One needs to exercise a bit of
> caution where two pieces meet; if oneis really anal, one can make that
> union look like it had been coped.

Actually I do ease inside edges, If I can touch the edge I ease it no
matter where it is. I simply don't ease edges before assembly as some
of those edges will no longer be exposed. I don't ease the edge of the
end of a rail where it joins a stile.






>
> There are times when an eased inside edge is useful (as well as
> esthetic), either between two pieces in the same component or two
> different components. For example, the inside edge of a breadboard end
> is often eased as are the butting face frame edges in a row of
> cabinets. It is called a "quirk" and is useful because - expecially in
> the case of cabinets - it is close to impossible to get the abutting
> face frame edges perfectly aligned.
>
>

This is as I mentioned where all edges including those in the joint have
a chamfer or other profile on all edges of the rails and stiles.

On 7/21/2014 3:01 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>
> I have finish sanders and a single-setting ROS (DeWalt). But what I'm
> asking is, do I sand right over the joint? Grits?

Can't advise you on your specifics because every situation is different.
But, I can tell you what I usually do:

Almost always run through 100, 120, 150 with a finish sander, with the
grain on real wood; I generally start with 120 or 150 with plywood.

Use the ROS, on the high side only of problem area, with the coarser
grits as necessary (run through 60?, 80 and 100) for problem areas.
Switch to a finish sander, with the grain, and with 100 (over above
sanding), 120, 150.

Then, depending upon the project, 220 by hand to lightly sand the faces
and break edges.

On bath and kitchen cabinet wood that will be stained/painted I usually
go through 100, 120 and 150; stop at 150 and break the edges, by hand,
with that.

On stain grade veneered plywood parts, I finish sand lightly at 120, 150.

In all case for the final three grits (100, 120, 150), I use a finish
sander, with the grain only; and sand up to, but do not sand across, the
joint in either direction.

YMMV ...

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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)