Anybody have any advice? I spent over an hour steaming the damn stuff,
and it was cool again before I could get it into my jig, and it
cracked as soon as I tried to bend it.
Various web searches indicate that you shouldn't try to bend
kiln-dried wood or wood that's old enough to have a moisture
content below 10%.
Has anybody else had any success here, or should I be checking
to see if there are any lumber yards with green redwood they can
sell me?
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
On 12/3/2013 4:03 PM, Edward A. Falk wrote:
> Actually, I'm quite worried about this. Redwood REALLY doesn't like to
> bend, and all the pieces I've made are undoubtedly under a lot of stress.
Relax, lots of folks have used TiteBond II for bent lamination and have
not had any problems whatsoever. And its cousin, TiteBond Extend, as well.
I wouldn't worry too much about it, mainly (and if I saw your photos
correctly) because you did yourself a big favor in making your
laminations very thin (1/16?), which should help tremendously with any
future springback regardless of the probably less than optimum rigidity
of pva glues for bent lamination.
Key with the TiteBond II pva is adequate clamping, and good surface
preparation so there are no voids and, as you found out, at least 24
hours clamp time. Also, IME, it does indeed have a tendency to develop
glue line ridges (creep), even with flat panel glueups.
And that's mainly why my favorite is the plastic resin (urea
formaldehyde) glue. It has its problems with absorbing moisture and
becoming grainy when mixed, if not kept tightly sealed, and it is also
very difficult to find fresh product on store shelves, otherwise it is,
IME, the best alternative for bentwood laminating, for its open time and
relative rigidity over pva and other glues.
Another plus is that none other than David J. Marks, of WoodWorks TV
fame, is an advocate of plastic resin glue for bentwood laminating. If
it's good enough for DJM, it's good enough for me.
Regardless, other glues will work if you pay attention to environmental
factors (temp/relative humidity/wood EMC), type of wood, etc., as well
as the idiosyncrasies of each type of adhesive, when doing bentwood
laminating.
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
google.com/+KarlCaillouet
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On Monday, September 23, 2013 2:57:22 AM UTC-5, Edward A. Falk wrote:
> > >Alternative plan: kerf it, then add lamination to hide the kerfing. Ye=
p; looks like this is what I'll be doing. I need to buy some more lumber ju=
st to resaw it into veneer. -- -Ed Falk,
Some sort of bent or laminate is most desirable, however below is a weak (s=
trength) design suggestion. Maybe test one 3" wide lapped form, to see how=
strong it is.
Half inch skin isn't too thick, for the below suggested technique (weak alo=
ng the formed curve). Maybe lapping short pieces between the upper and low=
er levels, then cut/form the desired curve. A framing/support piece ("roof=
rafter"), at the curve, would support the inherent weakness of the curved =
section.
Upper level ~~~> ____________
_____
Lapped short boards ~~~> ____
_____
Lower level ~~~> ____________
I assume the mollycroft is at least 24" wide or maybe about as wide as the =
doorway, below.
Sonny
"Edward A. Falk" wrote:
> Anybody have any advice? I spent over an hour steaming the damn
> stuff,
> and it was cool again before I could get it into my jig, and it
> cracked as soon as I tried to bend it.
>
> Various web searches indicate that you shouldn't try to bend
> kiln-dried wood or wood that's old enough to have a moisture
> content below 10%.
>
> Has anybody else had any success here, or should I be checking
> to see if there are any lumber yards with green redwood they can
> sell me?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
My gut tells me that patience is a virtue when steam bending.
Rather than an hour, try 5-6 hours, especially when working with stock
that has been kiln dried.
Lew
"HerHusband" wrote:
> Since then I have used my bandsaw to resaw 2" wide cedar boards to
> 1/4"
> thickness. Then I used exterior glue and a form to build laminated
> wood
> arches for a garden cover. The biggest problem here is getting
> everything
> clamped together before the glue sets up. And LOTS of clamps.
------------------------------------------------
It's time like these when epoxy is your friend.
Standard laminating resin and slow hardener will give you 25-30
minutes of open pot time at 75F.
Lew
Larry Blanchard wrote:
>>> > If you used yellow or white glue be prepared for some
>>> > more straightening over time. Those glues creep. Better to use
>>> > hide
>>> > glue, epoxy, or resorcinol.
"Edward A. Falk" wrote:
> What kind of epoxy do you recommend? I'm only familiar with the
> kind that comes in two little tubes. Or does this include Gorilla
> glue?
-----------------------------------------------------------
I use epoxy for laminations for the following reasons:
1* I had lots of it.
2* When using a slow hardener at 25C(77F), you have about a 25 minute
pot
life which can make all the difference how you do the job.
Gorilla glue is NOT epoxy, it's just another way to say GARBAGE.
I've used a lot of System3.
A gallon of resin and a couple of different speed hardeners and you
are good to go.
http://www.systemthree.com/
BTW, I still use a lot of Titebond II, just not for laminations or
where gap filling is req'd.
Have fun.
Lew
Larry Blanchard wrote:
>> I googled that, and came up with Weldwood. I used to use that stuff
>> all the time. Now to see if any of the local hardware stores or
>> lumber yards carry it. I've tried three so far, and struck out.
---------------------------------------------
"Swingman" wrote:
>> Might have to mail-order it, but I really don't have time for that.
>
> I buy it from Amazon/Prime and get it in two days:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/00203-Weldwood-Plastic-Resin-1-Pound/dp/B001003J16/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t
>
> Watch the expiration date, as I've to return some.
>
> Here's my review, which mentions the problem and what to look for:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/00203-Weldwood-Plastic-Resin-1-Pound/product-reviews/B001003J16/ref=cm_cr_pr_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending
---------------------------------------------
Question:
Why go thru the aggrivation when quality epoxies are available?
Lew
Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>Why go thru the aggrivation when quality epoxies are available?
"Edward A. Falk" wrote:
> Mostly got blank looks from the lumber yards and hardware
> stores I visited. They all pointed me to little tubes
> of A/B epoxies. Not what I need.
------------------------------------------------
Might as well ask for a steak, epoxies are not their business.
Go here and see if you have a local supplier other than WoodCraft.
If not S3 ships at reasonable cost.
http://www.systemthree.com
Lew
The wood will never bend like that. That is a very tight circle.
It bends 6 or so inches in 20 feet for facing boards on decks with heavy
work.
Redwood is used as structure beams and stuff because it doesn't bend.
I lived 2 miles from a 100+ year old saw mill and beam barn. I had been
in many a barn in the northern states for milk cows... but beam barns
were large enough to fit several teams of horses side by side and not
be in the way. Then you got to the large end that a railroad track
was a minor element on the side of the barn. Big place for big beams.
Martin
On 9/18/2013 8:40 PM, Edward A. Falk wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, and longer as others have said. Redwood isn't a good choice for
>> bending but if you can resaw it you should be able to get by....what
>> dimensions of piece and radius/radii?
>
> It's a 14' length, 1/2" thick, 3" wide. I want to bend a 9" section of
> it around maybe a 12" radius. I'll have to look into it.
>
> Lumber yard didn't have any green redwood other than some bender
> board, but I'm going to experiment with finishing it, bending it,
> and laminating it into 1/2" thickness. I don't really expect it
> to work.
>
> Alternative plan: kerf it, then add lamination to hide the kerfing.
>
What no green ? must not live in the belt.
That is all we could get when living out there. Had several hundred
board foot sawed up and some of it is with me here in projects.
Now I plan on sawing up some oak for projects here.
Martin
On 9/18/2013 8:40 PM, Edward A. Falk wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, and longer as others have said. Redwood isn't a good choice for
>> bending but if you can resaw it you should be able to get by....what
>> dimensions of piece and radius/radii?
>
> It's a 14' length, 1/2" thick, 3" wide. I want to bend a 9" section of
> it around maybe a 12" radius. I'll have to look into it.
>
> Lumber yard didn't have any green redwood other than some bender
> board, but I'm going to experiment with finishing it, bending it,
> and laminating it into 1/2" thickness. I don't really expect it
> to work.
>
> Alternative plan: kerf it, then add lamination to hide the kerfing.
>
On 12/3/2013 6:44 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 12/3/2013 4:03 PM, Edward A. Falk wrote:
>
>> Actually, I'm quite worried about this. Redwood REALLY doesn't like to
>> bend, and all the pieces I've made are undoubtedly under a lot of stress.
>
> Relax, lots of folks have used TiteBond II for bent lamination and have
> not had any problems whatsoever. And its cousin, TiteBond Extend, as well.
>
> I wouldn't worry too much about it, mainly (and if I saw your photos
> correctly) because you did yourself a big favor in making your
> laminations very thin (1/16?), which should help tremendously with any
> future springback regardless of the probably less than optimum rigidity
> of pva glues for bent lamination.
>
> Key with the TiteBond II pva is adequate clamping, and good surface
> preparation so there are no voids and, as you found out, at least 24
> hours clamp time. Also, IME, it does indeed have a tendency to develop
> glue line ridges (creep), even with flat panel glueups.
>
> And that's mainly why my favorite is the plastic resin (urea
> formaldehyde) glue. It has its problems with absorbing moisture and
> becoming grainy when mixed, if not kept tightly sealed, and it is also
> very difficult to find fresh product on store shelves, otherwise it is,
> IME, the best alternative for bentwood laminating, for its open time and
> relative rigidity over pva and other glues.
>
> Another plus is that none other than David J. Marks, of WoodWorks TV
> fame, is an advocate of plastic resin glue for bentwood laminating. If
> it's good enough for DJM, it's good enough for me.
I used to enjoy his show when my cable company carried it.
>
> Regardless, other glues will work if you pay attention to environmental
> factors (temp/relative humidity/wood EMC), type of wood, etc., as well
> as the idiosyncrasies of each type of adhesive, when doing bentwood
> laminating.
>
I like the epoxy, I had been building model gliders for so many years
using carbon, kevlar and fiberglass, it became second nature to work
with it. Like Lew said, different hardners control open time and cure
time. Plus add some cabosil or filler, or micro balloons to get the
consistency you want for the job you want... For laminations just
straight unless the wood were so thin that you didn't want bleed through.
--
Jeff
On 12/5/2013 1:51 PM, Edward A. Falk wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Larry Blanchard <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 17:44:23 -0600, Swingman wrote:
>>
>>> And that's mainly why my favorite is the plastic resin (urea
>>> formaldehyde) glue.
>>
>> I forgot that one - mea culpa. Would be (was) my favorite as well if I
>> still had a memory :-).
>
> I googled that, and came up with Weldwood. I used to use that stuff
> all the time. Now to see if any of the local hardware stores or
> lumber yards carry it. I've tried three so far, and struck out.
>
> Might have to mail-order it, but I really don't have time for that.
I buy it from Amazon/Prime and get it in two days:
http://www.amazon.com/00203-Weldwood-Plastic-Resin-1-Pound/dp/B001003J16/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t
Watch the expiration date, as I've to return some.
Here's my review, which mentions the problem and what to look for:
http://www.amazon.com/00203-Weldwood-Plastic-Resin-1-Pound/product-reviews/B001003J16/ref=cm_cr_pr_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
google.com/+KarlCaillouet
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
Edward A. Falk:
> Has anybody else had any success here, or should I be checking
> to see if there are any lumber yards with green redwood they can
> sell me?
>
Kiln dried woods don't bend well, the kiln collapses the cells and they lose
elasticity forever. Worse, redwood isn't particulary good for bending so depending
on how tight a radius you need, it may not work at all unless very green. Best bet
is probably a combination of kerfing and steaming.
Edward,
> Anybody have any advice? I spent over an hour steaming the damn stuff,
> and it was cool again before I could get it into my jig, and it
> cracked as soon as I tried to bend it.
> Various web searches indicate that you shouldn't try to bend
> kiln-dried wood or wood that's old enough to have a moisture
> content below 10%.
> Has anybody else had any success here, or should I be checking
> to see if there are any lumber yards with green redwood they can
> sell me?
I haven't bent redwood, but have made several laminated bends with kiln
dried cedar.
The first time was for trim for our arched living room window. I didn't
have a bandsaw at the time and the boards were about 7" wide, so my only
solution was to run them through the planer until they were 1/4" thick.
Then I slowly and carefully bent the boards to fit inside the window frame.
I heard a few cracking sounds that alarmed me, but the boards never broke.
Since then I have used my bandsaw to resaw 2" wide cedar boards to 1/4"
thickness. Then I used exterior glue and a form to build laminated wood
arches for a garden cover. The biggest problem here is getting everything
clamped together before the glue sets up. And LOTS of clamps. :)
Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com
On Saturday, September 14, 2013 9:10:06 PM UTC-5, Edward A. Falk wrote:
> Anybody have any advice?=20
Steam, for a longer time, thinner flitches/panels (more quantity than you n=
eed), bend to form/radius (plus a little more), allow to dry, then laminate=
. The wider the panels, the more difficult it will be. Some may break, s=
plit, hence the more quantity. As for the laminations, layer the flitches/=
panels opposite ends, as per in line as they were cut from the original boa=
rd, i.e., don't match the original faces.... does that make sense.
I bent walnut strips this way some years ago. After several failures of ot=
her techniques, I first soaked the laminates in hot water (I kept adding ho=
t water to the bath tub, as the water cooled) and I added glycerin to the w=
ater, to soften the laminates. =20
....Glycerin is also used to soften cane, for caning chairs.... makes the c=
ane more soft and supple, to weave, as opposed to soaking the cane in hot w=
ater, alone. Glycerin is the stuff added to soapy water that makes for the=
soluton for (kids) blowing bubbles.... you know the blowing bubbles "toy"?=
....
After the hot water/glycerin soaking (for at least an hour), then I steamed=
them.
The arch on the top-back of this maple chair (left) was similarly soaked, s=
teamed and laminate bent: =20
http://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/4032552238/
If I recall correctly, I cut 15 laminates and many broke or split during th=
e process. I needed eight 1/8" thick laminates (1-1/4" wide) for the form.=
That arc is certainly not a tight radius, either. The grain of the maple=
wasn't very straight, either, lots of unevenness (somewhat figured), so th=
at made for more difficult bending (without breaking/splitting around/along=
the figures). Your redwood may likely have straighter grain.
Sonny
>=20
>=20
> This picture shows what I'm building:
>=20
> http://www.efalk.org/Vardo/bigs/vardo002.jpg.html
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I'm talking about bending redwood boards to fit the shape of
>=20
> the upper section, called a mollycroft.
>=20
>=20
Cool build. I you talking about the structure or the panels? If it is the s=
tructural ribs, I would build them up out of several pieces and bandsaw the=
m. If it is the roof panels, I would just use thicker material and kind of =
barrel or conga drum them together and shape it out, leaving it flat undern=
eath unless you need to see it from inside also.
On 2/24/2014 4:51 PM, Edward A. Falk wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Morgans <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Btw, any suggestions on injecting caulk into the thin gaps between
>>> the pieces?
>>
>> Epoxy, heated with a heat gun to flow better, in a syringe with a big bore
>> needle. Tape as a dam if you cant rotate the part horizontal.
>
> I just went simple: cut the caulk tube near the tip to get a small
> hole, press the tip against the cracks and inject, wipe excess caulk
> off the surface. Worked pretty well.
>
> My progress so far:
>
> http://www.efalk.org/Vardo/bigs/vardo168.jpg.html
>
Looks good.
--
Jeff
On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 19:44:54 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Edward A. Falk" wrote:
>
>> Anybody have any advice? I spent over an hour steaming the damn
>> stuff,
>> and it was cool again before I could get it into my jig, and it
>> cracked as soon as I tried to bend it.
>>
>> Various web searches indicate that you shouldn't try to bend
>> kiln-dried wood or wood that's old enough to have a moisture
>> content below 10%.
>>
>> Has anybody else had any success here, or should I be checking
>> to see if there are any lumber yards with green redwood they can
>> sell me?
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>My gut tells me that patience is a virtue when steam bending.
>
>Rather than an hour, try 5-6 hours, especially when working with stock
>that has been kiln dried.
>
>Lew
>
If the final strength is not critical, try soaking in amonia for a
while to soften/disolve the lignin in the wood to allow the fibers to
"slip" - and the wood to bend
In article <[email protected]>,
Mac Cool <[email protected]> wrote:
>Edward A. Falk:
>
>> Has anybody else had any success here, or should I be checking
>> to see if there are any lumber yards with green redwood they can
>> sell me?
>>
>
>Kiln dried woods don't bend well, the kiln collapses the cells and they lose
>elasticity forever. Worse, redwood isn't particulary good for bending so depending
>on how tight a radius you need, it may not work at all unless very green. Best bet
>is probably a combination of kerfing and steaming.
I was thinking of kerfing, but the wood needs to be visible. Plus, this
is for an exposed section of a roof.
Maybe a laminate build-up in a form.
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
"Edward A. Falk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Anybody have any advice? I spent over an hour steaming
> the damn stuff, and it was cool again before I could get
> it into my jig, and it cracked as soon as I tried to bend
> it.
>
> Various web searches indicate that you shouldn't try to
> bend kiln-dried wood or wood that's old enough to have a
> moisture
> content below 10%.
Steam longer. A fellow I know in Indianapolis has a large veneer plant.
They cook their flitches for 24 hours before slicing them.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net
On 9/15/2013 12:27 AM, Edward A. Falk wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>,
> Mac Cool<[email protected]> wrote:
>> Edward A. Falk:
>>
>>> Has anybody else had any success here, or should I be checking
>>> to see if there are any lumber yards with green redwood they can
>>> sell me?
>>>
>>
>> Kiln dried woods don't bend well, the kiln collapses the cells and they lose
>> elasticity forever. Worse, redwood isn't particulary good for bending so depending
>> on how tight a radius you need, it may not work at all unless very green. Best bet
>> is probably a combination of kerfing and steaming.
>
> I was thinking of kerfing, but the wood needs to be visible. Plus, this
> is for an exposed section of a roof.
>
> Maybe a laminate build-up in a form.
Yeah, and longer as others have said. Redwood isn't a good choice for
bending but if you can resaw it you should be able to get by....what
dimensions of piece and radius/radii?
--
I can get green redwood.
It is quite flexible also.
Especially 1/2 "
The wood sold in yards that is green is usually a B grade of less quality.
Although you can find nice pieces in the stock.
I am not sure if you are talking about 1x6 width........or more.
2x6 comes in Hrt B. in the yard, and is green.
I would soak the wood if possible for a week or more.
I would also think about warm water soak.
If not possible, wrap in plastic with water inside.
Green would definitely warp best.
john
"Edward A. Falk" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
Anybody have any advice? I spent over an hour steaming the damn stuff,
and it was cool again before I could get it into my jig, and it
cracked as soon as I tried to bend it.
Various web searches indicate that you shouldn't try to bend
kiln-dried wood or wood that's old enough to have a moisture
content below 10%.
Has anybody else had any success here, or should I be checking
to see if there are any lumber yards with green redwood they can
sell me?
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
In article <[email protected]>, jloomis <[email protected]> wrote:
>I can get green redwood.
>It is quite flexible also.
>Especially 1/2 "
>
>The wood sold in yards that is green is usually a B grade of less quality.
>Although you can find nice pieces in the stock.
>I am not sure if you are talking about 1x6 width........or more.
I'll check the local lumber yard. I'm aiming for 1/2" thick,
3" wide. I was going to use tongue-and-groove to join them together,
but I'm willing to forego that if I need. Maybe use biscuit joints
instead.
This picture shows what I'm building:
http://www.efalk.org/Vardo/bigs/vardo002.jpg.html
I'm talking about bending redwood boards to fit the shape of
the upper section, called a mollycroft.
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
"Edward A. Falk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> In article <[email protected]>, jloomis
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I can get green redwood.
> > It is quite flexible also.
> > Especially 1/2 "
> >
> > The wood sold in yards that is green is usually a B
> > grade of less quality. Although you can find nice
> > pieces in the stock.
> > I am not sure if you are talking about 1x6
> > width........or more.
>
> I'll check the local lumber yard. I'm aiming for 1/2"
> thick, 3" wide. I was going to use tongue-and-groove to
> join them together,
> but I'm willing to forego that if I need. Maybe use
> biscuit joints
> instead.
>
> This picture shows what I'm building:
> http://www.efalk.org/Vardo/bigs/vardo002.jpg.html
>
> I'm talking about bending redwood boards to fit the shape
> of
> the upper section, called a mollycroft.
Are you talking about the board across the front or the roof skin itself?
If the former, forget it, you aren't going to get that bent. Laminated or
sawn or kerfed, sure; bent, no way.
________________
If the latter and you are going crosswise with the boards there should be no
need to bend them beforehand; they should bend just fine as you fasten them
down to whatever they fasten to. assuming that the supports define the
shape. It could be a bear securing them to each other though. Of
course,the simplest thing would be to lay them on length wise, easy to use T
& G for that.
Either way, it isn't going to keep out rain water. You would get lots of
info/ideas from books on boat building.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net
That is a common size and called "bender board" used for gardens etc.
It is usually a lower grade although if one is selective, you can get a nice
piece.
john
"Edward A. Falk" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
In article <[email protected]>, jloomis <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I can get green redwood.
>It is quite flexible also.
>Especially 1/2 "
>
>The wood sold in yards that is green is usually a B grade of less quality.
>Although you can find nice pieces in the stock.
>I am not sure if you are talking about 1x6 width........or more.
I'll check the local lumber yard. I'm aiming for 1/2" thick,
3" wide. I was going to use tongue-and-groove to join them together,
but I'm willing to forego that if I need. Maybe use biscuit joints
instead.
This picture shows what I'm building:
http://www.efalk.org/Vardo/bigs/vardo002.jpg.html
I'm talking about bending redwood boards to fit the shape of
the upper section, called a mollycroft.
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
In article <[email protected]>, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Yeah, and longer as others have said. Redwood isn't a good choice for
>bending but if you can resaw it you should be able to get by....what
>dimensions of piece and radius/radii?
It's a 14' length, 1/2" thick, 3" wide. I want to bend a 9" section of
it around maybe a 12" radius. I'll have to look into it.
Lumber yard didn't have any green redwood other than some bender
board, but I'm going to experiment with finishing it, bending it,
and laminating it into 1/2" thickness. I don't really expect it
to work.
Alternative plan: kerf it, then add lamination to hide the kerfing.
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
In article <[email protected]>, dadiOH <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> http://www.efalk.org/Vardo/bigs/vardo002.jpg.html
>
>Are you talking about the board across the front or the roof skin itself?
The roof skin. The board in the front is already made (three straight
pieces joined together, then cut on a bandsaw.)
In detail: the roof skin is about 50 twelve-foot-long 1x3's that have
been finished down to 1/2" thickness. Most of them run straight and
are no problem, and in fact are already finished and waiting to be
put on the roof.
But the very top of the roof, with the windows, is called a
"mollycroft". You can see that the boards need to bend up and
over and back again along the length of the wagon. That's the
bending I've been unable to do.
>If the latter and you are going crosswise with the boards there should be no
>need to bend them beforehand
Hmmm; I suppose I *could* go crosswise, but I've already made the other
long boards, I'm not sure I want the mollycroft roof going in the
opposite direction.
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
"Edward A. Falk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> In article <[email protected]>, dadiOH
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > http://www.efalk.org/Vardo/bigs/vardo002.jpg.html
> >
> > Are you talking about the board across the front or the
> > roof skin itself?
>
> The roof skin. The board in the front is already made
> (three straight pieces joined together, then cut on a
> bandsaw.)
>
> In detail: the roof skin is about 50 twelve-foot-long
> 1x3's that have
> been finished down to 1/2" thickness. Most of them run
> straight and
> are no problem, and in fact are already finished and
> waiting to be
> put on the roof.
>
> But the very top of the roof, with the windows, is called
> a "mollycroft". You can see that the boards need to bend
> up and
> over and back again along the length of the wagon. That's
> the
> bending I've been unable to do.
>
> > If the latter and you are going crosswise with the
> > boards there should be no need to bend them beforehand
>
> Hmmm; I suppose I *could* go crosswise, but I've already
> made the other long boards, I'm not sure I want the
> mollycroft roof going in the
> opposite direction.
Your choice, of course, but in the Sketchup the boards in that area look
like they are a bit higher than those in the roof proper. I don't think it
would look odd at all for them to go crosswise rather than lengthwise and it
would be just worlds easier to do.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
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In article <[email protected]>,
Edward A. Falk <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Alternative plan: kerf it, then add lamination to hide the kerfing.
Yep; looks like this is what I'll be doing. I need to buy some
more lumber just to resaw it into veneer.
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
Just for fun, I uploaded a picture of the part I'm making.
http://imgur.com/PTgIOW4
I just printed a template out, and the radius of curvature isn't
nearly as tight as I'd thought, so there's room to work here.
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
In article <[email protected]>,
Edward A. Falk <[email protected]> wrote:
>Anybody have any advice? I spent over an hour steaming the damn stuff,
>and it was cool again before I could get it into my jig, and it
>cracked as soon as I tried to bend it.
Well, all has been said and done, and I've come up with a solution I
can live with.
Kerfing worked, but the results were too fragile. See the series of
photos starting at http://www.efalk.org/Vardo/bigs/vardo140.jpg.html
Finally, I just went with laminating. Set up my table saw to cut 1/16"
slices from a redwood 2x4. Built a jig so I didn't lose my fingers
in the process. Built a crude form for layouts and starting making my
curved boards.
http://www.efalk.org/Vardo/bigs/vardo150.jpg.html
Fun fact: the bottle of glue says don't stress the joints before 24
hours. They mean it. One of my bent boards managed to straighten itself
out even after I thought the glue had dried.
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
"Edward A. Falk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Edward A. Falk <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Anybody have any advice? I spent over an hour steaming
> > the damn stuff, and it was cool again before I could
> > get it into my jig, and it cracked as soon as I tried
> > to bend it.
>
> Well, all has been said and done, and I've come up with a
> solution I can live with.
>
> Kerfing worked, but the results were too fragile. See the
> series of photos starting at
> http://www.efalk.org/Vardo/bigs/vardo140.jpg.html
>
> Finally, I just went with laminating. Set up my table saw
> to cut 1/16" slices from a redwood 2x4. Built a jig so I
> didn't lose my fingers
> in the process. Built a crude form for layouts and
> starting making my curved boards.
>
> http://www.efalk.org/Vardo/bigs/vardo150.jpg.html
>
> Fun fact: the bottle of glue says don't stress the joints
> before 24 hours. They mean it. One of my bent boards
> managed to straighten itself out even after I thought the
> glue had dried.
Good to hear you got'er done. It is an interesting project. Nice drawings
too, what program did you use for the rendering?
--
dadiOH
____________________________
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On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 00:49:59 +0000, Edward A. Falk wrote:
> Fun fact: the bottle of glue says don't stress the joints before 24
> hours. They mean it. One of my bent boards managed to straighten itself
> out even after I thought the glue had dried.
If you used yellow or white glue be prepared for some more straightening
over time. Those glues creep. Better to use hide glue, epoxy, or
resorcinol.
--
This message was for rec.woodworking - if it appears in homeownershub
they ripped it off.
Larry Blanchard wrote:
>
> If you used yellow or white glue be prepared for some more
> straightening over time. Those glues creep. Better to use hide
> glue, epoxy, or resorcinol.
So... let's talk about this. We have all used elmer's yellow, tightbond,
and whatever else, in both long grain and in cross grain situations. For
the most part - we have not experienced any creep issues over time. Not to
say it is not a problem, but I'm trying to raise the discussion about just
how real this creep problem really is. I would guess that some form of
yellow glue is the most commonly used wood glue, and across the spectrum of
glued up wood items, I'd say creep is only a problem in a miniscule amount
of the projects.
I submit that we tend to take one-off situations and make generalizations
out of them, to the discredit of the actual subject at hand. But - that's
my opinion, based on my experiences and things that I think I see in
woodworking in general.
So - for the rest of you... what say ye? But please... let's look at this
more from a perspective of actual experience and/or any "scientific"
perspective, rather than purely andectdotal one-off perspectives.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]
> Larry Blanchard wrote:
>
> >
> > If you used yellow or white glue be prepared for some
> > more straightening over time. Those glues creep. Better to use hide
> > glue, epoxy, or resorcinol.
>
> So... let's talk about this. We have all used elmer's
> yellow, tightbond, and whatever else, in both long grain
> and in cross grain situations. For the most part - we
> have not experienced any creep issues over time. Not to
> say it is not a problem, but I'm trying to raise the
> discussion about just how real this creep problem really
> is. I would guess that some form of yellow glue is the
> most commonly used wood glue, and across the spectrum of
> glued up wood items, I'd say creep is only a problem in a
> miniscule amount of the projects.
> I submit that we tend to take one-off situations and make
> generalizations out of them, to the discredit of the
> actual subject at hand. But - that's my opinion, based
> on my experiences and things that I think I see in
> woodworking in general.
> So - for the rest of you... what say ye? But please...
> let's look at this more from a perspective of actual
> experience and/or any "scientific" perspective, rather
> than purely andectdotal one-off perspectives.
I agree with you. IIRC, Mr. Falk laminated a bunch of 1/16" strips; I think
springback from that thickness would be non-existent.
Over the years, I have laminated several things; most recently four 1/4" x
5" x 72" strips to make a 1" thick arch top jamb for arches (I made two
jambs) I was making screen doors for. My bending jig was very simple...a
piece of 3/8" ply with pieces of 2x4 glued to it every 8" or so. I bent one
piece into the jig, held it with a clamp in the center then applied glue to
the second piece and - starting from one side - bent it onto the first; when
I had bent as far as I could go, I removed the one clamp holding the first
and continued clamping both. I then repeated all of that with the remaining
two pieces.
After drying, zero spring back. I don't recall ever having any on anything.
I don't recall the thickest pieces I have laminated to a curve, probably
1/4". However, I have dry bent numerous boards...when I had a sailboat I'd
occasionally need to replace a plank; those were 1 1/4 thick douglas fir on
the order of 5-6" x 10-16'. The longer the better for those :) And once
theyhave been on for a while, they take a "set" close to the curve to which
they were bent.
In general, I think people worry too much about stuff. And not only
woodworking...stuff like lead, asbestos, mold...all sorts of things. I'm
not suggesting people shouldn't exercise caution, merely that things like
some mold on a basement wall isn't the kiss of death for all inhabitants.
Relative to woodworking, if I have something I need to do that I haven't
done before I try to figure out various ways of accomplishing it, try what
seems easiest and has a reasonable chance of success and do it; if it
doesn't work, try another. generally, I hit it the first try, I HATE
re-doing anything :)
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
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In article <[email protected]>,
Larry Blanchard <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 00:49:59 +0000, Edward A. Falk wrote:
>
>> Fun fact: the bottle of glue says don't stress the joints before 24
>> hours. They mean it. One of my bent boards managed to straighten itself
>> out even after I thought the glue had dried.
>
>If you used yellow or white glue be prepared for some more straightening
>over time. Those glues creep. Better to use hide glue, epoxy, or
>resorcinol.
I used Tightbond II. I'm thinking of adding some 1/2" pins for
reinforcement, although it's likely they'll stick slightly out
the other side.
>--
>This message was for rec.woodworking - if it appears in homeownershub
>they ripped it off.
I'll be damned. My posts seem to be there too.
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
In article <[email protected]>, dadiOH <[email protected]> wrote:
>"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
>message news:[email protected]
>> Larry Blanchard wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > If you used yellow or white glue be prepared for some
>> > more straightening over time. Those glues creep. Better to use hide
>> > glue, epoxy, or resorcinol.
What kind of epoxy do you recommend? I'm only familiar with the
kind that comes in two little tubes. Or does this include Gorilla
glue?
>> So... let's talk about this. We have all used elmer's
>> yellow, tightbond, and whatever else, in both long grain
>> and in cross grain situations. For the most part - we
>> have not experienced any creep issues over time.
>> say it is not a problem, but I'm trying to raise the
>> discussion about just how real this creep problem really
>> is. I would guess that some form of yellow glue is the
>> most commonly used wood glue, and across the spectrum of
>> glued up wood items, I'd say creep is only a problem in a
>> miniscule amount of the projects.
>
>I agree with you. IIRC, Mr. Falk laminated a bunch of 1/16" strips; I think
>springback from that thickness would be non-existent.
Actually, I'm quite worried about this. Redwood REALLY doesn't like to
bend, and all the pieces I've made are undoubtedly under a lot of stress.
I removed one piece after about 12 hours in the
clamps, and by the next day, it had straightened
out. http://www.efalk.org/Vardo/bigs/vardo158.jpg.html
Now I leave the pieces in the clamps for 24 hours, but I still worry. I'm
afraid that ten or twenty years from now, those pieces will start popping
lose because they've been straightening out or delaminating over time.
I plan to keep the original gluing forms in storage permanently in case
I ever need to make replacement parts.
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
In article <[email protected]>, dadiOH <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Good to hear you got'er done. It is an interesting project. Nice drawings
>too, what program did you use for the rendering?
The modelling and most of the pictures were done with Sketchup (the
free version.)
The high-quality renderings were done with IDX Renditioner, which
is a plug-in for Sketchup.
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 17:44:23 -0600, Swingman wrote:
> And that's mainly why my favorite is the plastic resin (urea
> formaldehyde) glue.
I forgot that one - mea culpa. Would be (was) my favorite as well if I
still had a memory :-).
--
This message was for rec.woodworking - if it appears in homeownershub
they ripped it off.
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 13:31:01 -0500, Mike Marlow wrote:
> I would guess that some form
> of yellow glue is the most commonly used wood glue, and across the
> spectrum of glued up wood items, I'd say creep is only a problem in a
> miniscule amount of the projects.
>
> I submit that we tend to take one-off situations and make
> generalizations out of them, to the discredit of the actual subject at
> hand. But - that's my opinion, based on my experiences and things that
> I think I see in woodworking in general.
Certainly creep is not a problem in most joints because they're not under
constant pressure. But bent laminations are. Titebond says the following
about creep:
"Because PVA glues tend to âcreepâ, or slowly stretch under long-term
loads,they are not recommended for structural applications."
They make the stuff - I'll go by what they say.
--
This message was for rec.woodworking - if it appears in homeownershub
they ripped it off.
Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 13:31:01 -0500, Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> I would guess that some form
>> of yellow glue is the most commonly used wood glue, and across the
>> spectrum of glued up wood items, I'd say creep is only a problem in a
>> miniscule amount of the projects.
>>
>> I submit that we tend to take one-off situations and make
>> generalizations out of them, to the discredit of the actual subject
>> at hand. But - that's my opinion, based on my experiences and
>> things that I think I see in woodworking in general.
>
> Certainly creep is not a problem in most joints because they're not
> under constant pressure. But bent laminations are. Titebond says the
> following about creep:
>
> "Because PVA glues tend to "creep", or slowly stretch under long-term
> loads,they are not recommended for structural applications."
>
> They make the stuff - I'll go by what they say.
Excellent Larry. The very kind of thing I was hoping would come out of
initiating some dialog about the topic.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Edward A. Falk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> In article <[email protected]>, dadiOH
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
> > message news:[email protected]
> > > Larry Blanchard wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > If you used yellow or white glue be prepared for
> > > > some
> > > > more straightening over time. Those glues creep.
> > > > Better to use hide glue, epoxy, or resorcinol.
>
> What kind of epoxy do you recommend? I'm only familiar
> with the
> kind that comes in two little tubes. Or does this include
> Gorilla
> glue?
Gorrila glue isn't epoxy. If you want/need epoxy, this is a good source...
http://www.uscomposites.com/epoxy.html
One of the nice things about epoxy is that it can be thickened; that is nice
because it will fill voids. Another nice thing about it is that it needs
minimal clamping...just enough to keep things where they should be. That
latter nicety would have been of little value for your bending operation but
it can be very handy in other situations.
Other good choices wold be resorcinol or plastic resin glue. I used to use
the latter a lot when I had a boat, worked well but always seemed wierd to
me; I mean, mix the tan powder with water and the stuff wasn't even sticky
:)
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
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"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]
> Larry Blanchard wrote:
> > On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 13:31:01 -0500, Mike Marlow wrote:
> >
> > > I would guess that some form
> > > of yellow glue is the most commonly used wood glue,
> > > and across the spectrum of glued up wood items, I'd
> > > say creep is only a problem in a miniscule amount of
> > > the projects. I submit that we tend to take one-off situations and
> > > make generalizations out of them, to the discredit of
> > > the actual subject at hand. But - that's my opinion,
> > > based on my experiences and things that I think I see
> > > in woodworking in general.
> >
> > Certainly creep is not a problem in most joints because
> > they're not under constant pressure. But bent
> > laminations are. Titebond says the following about
> > creep: "Because PVA glues tend to "creep", or slowly stretch
> > under long-term loads,they are not recommended for
> > structural applications." They make the stuff - I'll go by what they
> > say.
>
> Excellent Larry. The very kind of thing I was hoping
> would come out of initiating some dialog about the topic.
Here's some discussion of glues/creep.
http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/adhesives.pl?read=703888
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
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In article <[email protected]>,
Larry Blanchard <[email protected]> wrote:
>"Because PVA glues tend to âcreepâ, or slowly stretch under long-term
>loads,they are not recommended for structural applications."
>
>They make the stuff - I'll go by what they say.
Crud. I'll go for epoxy then. Thanks for the info.
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
In article <[email protected]>,
Lew Hodgett <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Gorilla glue is NOT epoxy, it's just another way to say GARBAGE.
Ahh, thank you for that. Now I don't feel so bad hating it.
Although, it does have its uses.
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
In article <[email protected]>,
Larry Blanchard <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 17:44:23 -0600, Swingman wrote:
>
>> And that's mainly why my favorite is the plastic resin (urea
>> formaldehyde) glue.
>
>I forgot that one - mea culpa. Would be (was) my favorite as well if I
>still had a memory :-).
I googled that, and came up with Weldwood. I used to use that stuff
all the time. Now to see if any of the local hardware stores or
lumber yards carry it. I've tried three so far, and struck out.
Might have to mail-order it, but I really don't have time for that.
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
In article <[email protected]>,
Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Might have to mail-order it, but I really don't have time for that.
>
>I buy it from Amazon/Prime and get it in two days:
I wound up doing exactly that. The stuff seems to be
unobtanium in retail stores now.
>Watch the expiration date, as I've to return some.
>
>Here's my review, which mentions the problem and what to look for:
>
>http://www.amazon.com/00203-Weldwood-Plastic-Resin-1-Pound/product-reviews/B001003J16/ref=cm_cr_pr_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending
Ahh, yes. I already read it. It was very helpful.
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
In article <[email protected]>,
Lew Hodgett <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>Why go thru the aggrivation when quality epoxies are available?
Mostly got blank looks from the lumber yards and hardware
stores I visited. They all pointed me to little tubes
of A/B epoxies. Not what I need.
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
On 12/5/2013 1:48 PM, Edward A. Falk wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Lew Hodgett <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Gorilla glue is NOT epoxy, it's just another way to say GARBAGE.
>
> Ahh, thank you for that. Now I don't feel so bad hating it.
>
> Although, it does have its uses.
>
FWIW Gorilla glue is not a type of glue, it is a brand of glue.
Like Franklin, which makes the TiteBond glues they also make a
Polyurethane glue
http://www.titebond.com/product.aspx?id=78b95323-a09e-45c2-b5ad-7ea90b13c6ca
Gorilla, makes all types of glues also including that which is similar
to the TiteBond II type glues and the Gorilla white wood is actually
quite good and easy to work with.
http://www.gorillatough.com/index.php?page=wood-glue
And FWIW Gorilla glue can be an Epoxy if that is the type glue you purchase.
http://www.gorillatough.com/index.php?page=epoxy
Follow up:
I wound up making 1/16" laminations and gluing them in a form:
http://www.efalk.org/Vardo/bigs/vardo155.jpg.html
http://www.efalk.org/Vardo/bigs/vardo163.jpg.html
http://www.efalk.org/Vardo/bigs/vardo164.jpg.html
Doesn't really bear up to close examination, but looks good from a
dozen feet away.
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
On 1/24/14, 3:11 PM, Edward A. Falk wrote:
> Follow up:
>
> I wound up making 1/16" laminations and gluing them in a form:
>
> http://www.efalk.org/Vardo/bigs/vardo155.jpg.html
> http://www.efalk.org/Vardo/bigs/vardo163.jpg.html
> http://www.efalk.org/Vardo/bigs/vardo164.jpg.html
>
> Doesn't really bear up to close examination, but looks good from a
> dozen feet away.
>
They look pretty good to me for a first attempt.
Now that you know the pitfalls, I bet you can't wait for an excuse to
make some more.
By the way, your process is pretty much what the major furniture
industries do to make theirs, minus the giant hydraulic presses and
microwave resin curing, of course. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
In article <[email protected]>,
-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 1/24/14, 3:11 PM, Edward A. Falk wrote:
>> Follow up:
>>
>> I wound up making 1/16" laminations and gluing them in a form:
>>
>> http://www.efalk.org/Vardo/bigs/vardo155.jpg.html
>> http://www.efalk.org/Vardo/bigs/vardo163.jpg.html
>> http://www.efalk.org/Vardo/bigs/vardo164.jpg.html
>>
>> Doesn't really bear up to close examination, but looks good from a
>> dozen feet away.
>>
>
>They look pretty good to me for a first attempt.
>Now that you know the pitfalls, I bet you can't wait for an excuse to
>make some more.
Thanks for your vote of confidence, but I hope I *never* have to do
this again. The pieces just don't match each other very well. I have
no idea how major projects involving complex curves are done.
Btw, any suggestions on injecting caulk into the thin gaps between
the pieces?
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
> Btw, any suggestions on injecting caulk into the thin gaps between
> the pieces?
Epoxy, heated with a heat gun to flow better, in a syringe with a big bore
needle. Tape as a dam if you cant rotate the part horizontal.
--
Jim in NC
---
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In article <[email protected]>,
Morgans <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Btw, any suggestions on injecting caulk into the thin gaps between
>> the pieces?
>
> Epoxy, heated with a heat gun to flow better, in a syringe with a big bore
>needle. Tape as a dam if you cant rotate the part horizontal.
I just went simple: cut the caulk tube near the tip to get a small
hole, press the tip against the cracks and inject, wipe excess caulk
off the surface. Worked pretty well.
My progress so far:
http://www.efalk.org/Vardo/bigs/vardo168.jpg.html
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/