I got a steal (maybe) on a Jet dust collector. The tag says it draws 23
amps, which I assume is the peak amperagw on start up. I have a new 30
amp circuit in the shop. It's popping the 30 amp fuse each time I try
to start her up. Any ideas? I need to get my $2/BF 4/4 clear walnut
(minor gloat) cleaned up and the planer is spitting shavings all over
the shop, some of which I managed to track across SWMBO's rug. Not
pleased with me, is she. She fails to see the value in me spending six
of what we used to call boat units on this set up when I could buy
perfectly good finished stock at the lumber yard.
Larry
"[email protected]" wrote:
>I got a steal (maybe) on a Jet dust collector. The tag says it draws
>23 amps, which I assume is the peak amperagw on start up. I have a
>new 30 amp circuit in the shop. It's popping the 30 amp fuse each
>time I try to start her up. Any ideas?
Think INRUSH.
23A on a nameplate would indicate FLA, not PEAK.
My guess you are going to need a 50A service to handle the inrush
problem.
Lew
TEMPORARILY,
"[email protected]" wrote:
> Here's all the data from the plate, Lew:
>
> Here's all the data from the motor plate, Lew.
>
> Volts: 115/230
> Amps: 23/15
> 2 hp
> 1 ph
> 3450 RPM
> 2 pole
> 60 cycle
Bingo,
This is a classic case where you want to operate at 240V.
Reconnect the motor to operate at 240V.
Pull a 2P-30A service from your service panel and you are good to go.
Ain't life grand?
Have fuin.
Lew
[email protected] wrote:
> So ... can I swap use the #10 wire and up the circuit to 50 amps or
> do I need to run #8?
You need #6AWG for a 50A service.
Do your self a favor and post the following name plate data from the
motor as follows:
Volts:_____________
Amps:_____________
Life may not be all that difficult.
Lew
"Tom Veatch" wrote:
> 23 amps is 76% of 30 amps. I run a 21 FLA motor on a 30 amp circuit
> (70%) and a 14 FLA motor on a 20 amp circuit (70%) with multiple,
> frequent starts every day. Not a single breaker trip yet. During
> testing of the 21 FLA motor, I had it on a 20 amp circuit. Multiple
> starts, no trips and 105% load to capacity.. The only time it did
> trip
> the breaker was in an overloaded condition when it was drawing 44
> measured amps (on a 20 amp breaker) and the breaker still didn't
> trip
> for about 30-45 seconds.
----------------------------------------------------
The above would cause me considerable concern about whether the above
c'bkrs are still functioning as designed.
(See comments below about service life)
----------------------------------------------------
> If his motor is tripping a 30 amp breaker within a few seconds of
> startup, there's something definitely wrong. But startup surge is
> not
> it. Residential type breakers, unlike the old fusible link "fuses",
> are "time-delay" devices and have a overload/time to trip curve.
> They
> will accept very significant overloads (see above - 44 on a 20) for
> varying durations. Very high overloads for short durations, low
> overloads for long duration. Unless the breaker is defective, a 30
> amp
> residential service circuit breaker will accept the start surge from
> a
> 23 FLA motor for a much longer time than that necessary to get the
> motor up to rated RPM.
----------------------------------------------------
The above refers to the thermal and ignores the magnetic portion of a
thermal-magnetic c'bkr.
Tripping on start up is definitely an infrequent problem.
----------------------------------------------------
> Even on motor circuits, and this isn't one of those, the NEC calls
> for
> a 25% headroom (if I remember correctly) on the circuit.
----------------------------------------------------
If not a motor circuit, what would you call it?
----------------------------------------------------
> That is
> essentially what the OP has. The oversizing breakers, again, if I
> remember correctly, is to accommodate very hard starting systems,
> for
> example, conveyor belt systems that may have to start under load and
> take an extended time to come up to rated RPM, during which time the
> motor(s) draw much higher current than normal - the "inrush"
> current.
----------------------------------------------------
Inrush is independant of motor type; however starting current of a
function of motor design and connected load.
----------------------------------------------------
> And, again, IIRC, motors on such circuits have to either have
> internal
> thermal protection or overload protected starters.
----------------------------------------------------
The ONLY way to protect a motor is with an overload relay which
usually is, but not limited to thermal devices.
----------------------------------------------------
>
> Although a Dust Collector motor has a harder job bringing a high
> inertia impeller up to speed than does, say, a table saw bringing a
> 10" blade disk up to speed, it still doesn't qualify as "hard to
> start". Incidentally, the 21 FLA motor mentioned above is the motor
> on
> my Dust Collector and was driving the DC impeller during all the
> testing - including the time it spent on the 20 amp circuit.
>
> Also consider this. I know the breaker is there to protect the
> wiring,
> not the load, but if the motor is not equipped with an external
> starter with overload protection (most 2HP motors aren't) and
> doesn't
> have internal thermal protection breakers (some do, many don't) the
> breaker in the panel is the only overload protection the motor has.
> If
> whatever is wrong is something that will trip the 30 but wouldn't
> trip
> the 50 amp breaker (unlikely, but possible), then plugging it into a
> 50 amp circuit will essentially impose a death sentence on the
> motor -
> assuming it's not already shot.
----------------------------------------------------
As you state above, a c'bkr NEVER provides protection for the load, in
this a case a motor.
An overload relay is required to protect a motor(load).
----------------------------------------------------
Some molded case, thermal-magnetic, circuit breaker basics.
1) The only purpose of a circuit breaker is to protect the integrity
of the distribution system insulation. If the load destroys itself ,
but the distribution system insulation is saved, the breaker has done
it's job.
2) A circuit breaker only has to clear a fault one time to have done
its designed task. If the circuit breaker fails or destroys itself in
the process of clearing that fault, it has still done it's job.
3) Circuit breakers are not switches. Switching a breaker on-off on a
regular basis is outside the design parameters and can lead to
premature failure.
4) Thermal-magnetic breakers contain a magnetic portion which reacts
immediately in the case of high over current flow such as a short
circuit or motor start up. The thermal portion contains the time delay
portion which is inversely proportional to the current being carried.
This allows the breaker to monitor overloads within range for short
periods without tripping.
5) Circuit breakers operating under load on a continuous basis have a
service life. I have been away from the business for far too long to
remember all the specifics, but those breakers that see a lot of
service either as mechanical switching or electrical devices are
candidates for replacement at least every 10 years.
HTH
Lew
"Tom Veatch" wrote:
> You got the DC used. It's a 120/240 dual voltage motor. Is it setup
> for 120v or 240v? Is your new 30amp circuit 240 or 120. 120v/30a
> circuits are not particularly common so I'm guessing that it's 240v.
> If your DC is setup for 120 and you're plugging it into 240, that
> might be your problem.
>
> If you got it used, don't go by what kind of plug is on the power
> cord. Who knows what kind of games the previous owner might have
> played. Open the motor's J-box (unplug it first, of course), compare
> the wiring diagram on the motor to the way it's actually wired and
> insure that it's connected for low voltage if your circuit is 120
> and
> for high voltage if your circuit is 240.
>
> The motor should run perfectly well on a 30 amp circuit, even at
> 120v,
> if the motor is set up to match the voltage being supplied. A
> properly
> functioning 30 amp breaker will not trip from the startup surge from
> a
> 23 amp motor unless the motor is mechanically prevented from
> starting
> or the motor is defective. A 50 amp circuit is definitely not
> required.
----------------------------------------------
Tom brings up some very good points; however, must take exception to
his comment about a 30A c'bkr being able to handle a 23FLA motor.
You will never get past the inrush of the magnetic portion of the
thermal-magnetic c'bkr.
Buried in the NEC some place long forgotten, is a paragraph allowing
thermal-magnetic c'bkrs used as motor protectors to be sized up to at
least 250% of the FLA of the motor, simply to overcome the inrush
problem which in the above example would mean at least a 50A c'bkr.
It's one of the reasons time delay fuses for motor loads have been so
popular over the years.
Lew
On Sep 19, 10:51=A0am, Jim Weisgram <[email protected]>
wrote:
> [...snip...]
>
> >Pull a 2P-30A service from your service panel and you are good to go.
>
> [...snip...]
>
> I'd suggest putting a 240V 30A type plug on your DC and matching
> socket on that circuit as well. In the future, you don't want someone
> plugging in a 120V device to that outlet.
Not only a good idea, but required by code.
Allen98 wrote:
> On Sep 17, 9:23 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I got a steal (maybe) on a Jet dust collector. The tag says it draws 23
>> amps, which I assume is the peak amperagw on start up. I have a new 30
>> amp circuit in the shop. It's popping the 30 amp fuse each time I try
>> to start her up. Any ideas? I need to get my $2/BF 4/4 clear walnut
>> (minor gloat) cleaned up and the planer is spitting shavings all over
>> the shop, some of which I managed to track across SWMBO's rug. Not
>> pleased with me, is she. She fails to see the value in me spending six
>> of what we used to call boat units on this set up when I could buy
>> perfectly good finished stock at the lumber yard.
>>
>> Larry
>
> Is the motor jamming up? It may have a large chip in the impeller
> stopping it from turning...that would cause it to overload your cb. If
> the impeller is turning it should suck air. Does it start sucking air
> right away? If not unplug it and take it apart to check for
> obstruction near or within the impeller assebly.
It sucks for a few seconds on start up, then pops the fuse. The top bag
fills up with air.
On Sep 17, 9:23=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I got a steal (maybe) on a Jet dust collector. =A0The tag says it draws 2=
3
> amps, which I assume is the peak amperagw on start up. =A0I have a new 30
> amp circuit in the shop. =A0It's popping the 30 amp fuse each time I try
> to start her up. =A0Any ideas? =A0I need to get my $2/BF 4/4 clear walnut
> (minor gloat) cleaned up and the planer is spitting shavings all over
> the shop, some of which I managed to track across SWMBO's rug. =A0Not
> pleased with me, is she. =A0She fails to see the value in me spending six
> of what we used to call boat units on this set up when I could buy
> perfectly good finished stock at the lumber yard.
Do you have anything else running on that circuit - like the planer?
JP
On Sep 18, 9:49=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> It sucks for a few seconds on start up, then pops the fuse. =A0The top ba=
g
> fills up with air.
You could run an experiment to find out if its startup (temporary peak
current) that's popping the breaker, or its the normal load that is
doing it.
A dust collector is a centrifugal device. The amount of load (aka
current) is dependent on the amount of air its moving. If you
completely close the blast gate(s) in your DC system, the only air
that will move is small (leaks in the system) and should pose minimum
load on the motor.
Close the blast gates and start the dust collector and let it run. If
it continues running, then gradually slide open the blast gate to your
planer. If it continues running after a few seconds, then its the
startup current that's popping the breaker and changing to a different
characteristic breaker will fix the problem. You won't need to
increase your wire size or change to 220v service.
Having said all that, I am with the others and recommend changing to
220v service. Your DC motor will start faster and last longer running
on 220v.
Bob
On Sep 19, 10:29=A0pm, charlieb <[email protected]> wrote:
> 746 watts per horsepower
> volts x amps =3D watts
Don't forget this is AC, not DC (arghh - electrical threads and
harangues emerging) - For ac, its volts x amps x power factor.
Bob
Here's all the data from the plate, Lew:
Here's all the data from the motor plate, Lew.
Volts: 115/230
Amps: 23/15
2 hp
1 ph
3450 RPM
2 pole
60 cycle
Any ideas will be appreciated.
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>> So ... can I swap use the #10 wire and up the circuit to 50 amps or
>> do I need to run #8?
>
> You need #6AWG for a 50A service.
>
> Do your self a favor and post the following name plate data from the
> motor as follows:
>
> Volts:_____________
>
> Amps:_____________
>
> Life may not be all that difficult.
>
> Lew
>
>
>
dpb wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>> I got a steal (maybe) on a Jet dust collector. The tag says it draws
>> 23 amps, which I assume is the peak amperagw on start up. I have a
>> new 30 amp circuit in the shop. It's popping the 30 amp fuse each
>> time I try to start her up. Any ideas?
>
> What voltage? 23A @ 120V would be something otoh 2 hp so I'm guessing
> that's it. Running a 240V circuit would probably be cheaper than a time
> delay relay if it is simply the starting surge.
>
> Of course, as someone else noted, you got anything else on that circuit?
> And it's run w/ 10ga, right?
>
> --
Nothing else running on the circuit. It's 10 wire. I know just enough
about electricity to know not to stick my fingers in the socket. So ...
can I swap use the #10 wire and up the circuit to 50 amps or do I need
to run #8?
How good is the circuit ?
Is the cable going to the collector dropping voltage - making the collector
draw more to get it on ?
Might be wire size.
[email protected] wrote:
> I got a steal (maybe) on a Jet dust collector. The tag says it draws 23
> amps, which I assume is the peak amperagw on start up. I have a new 30
> amp circuit in the shop. It's popping the 30 amp fuse each time I try
> to start her up. Any ideas? I need to get my $2/BF 4/4 clear walnut
> (minor gloat) cleaned up and the planer is spitting shavings all over
> the shop, some of which I managed to track across SWMBO's rug. Not
> pleased with me, is she. She fails to see the value in me spending six
> of what we used to call boat units on this set up when I could buy
> perfectly good finished stock at the lumber yard.
>
> Larry
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 20:23:02 -0500, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I got a steal (maybe) on a Jet dust collector. The tag says it draws 23
>amps, which I assume is the peak amperagw on start up. I have a new 30
>amp circuit in the shop. It's popping the 30 amp fuse each time I try
>to start her up. Any ideas? I need to get my $2/BF 4/4 clear walnut
>(minor gloat) cleaned up and the planer is spitting shavings all over
>the shop, some of which I managed to track across SWMBO's rug. Not
>pleased with me, is she. She fails to see the value in me spending six
>of what we used to call boat units on this set up when I could buy
>perfectly good finished stock at the lumber yard.
>
>Larry
You got the DC used. It's a 120/240 dual voltage motor. Is it setup
for 120v or 240v? Is your new 30amp circuit 240 or 120. 120v/30a
circuits are not particularly common so I'm guessing that it's 240v.
If your DC is setup for 120 and you're plugging it into 240, that
might be your problem.
If you got it used, don't go by what kind of plug is on the power
cord. Who knows what kind of games the previous owner might have
played. Open the motor's J-box (unplug it first, of course), compare
the wiring diagram on the motor to the way it's actually wired and
insure that it's connected for low voltage if your circuit is 120 and
for high voltage if your circuit is 240.
The motor should run perfectly well on a 30 amp circuit, even at 120v,
if the motor is set up to match the voltage being supplied. A properly
functioning 30 amp breaker will not trip from the startup surge from a
23 amp motor unless the motor is mechanically prevented from starting
or the motor is defective. A 50 amp circuit is definitely not
required.
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:18:32 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>----------------------------------------------
>Tom brings up some very good points; however, must take exception to
>his comment about a 30A c'bkr being able to handle a 23FLA motor.
>
>You will never get past the inrush of the magnetic portion of the
>thermal-magnetic c'bkr.
>
>Buried in the NEC some place long forgotten, is a paragraph allowing
>thermal-magnetic c'bkrs used as motor protectors to be sized up to at
>least 250% of the FLA of the motor, simply to overcome the inrush
>problem which in the above example would mean at least a 50A c'bkr.
>
>It's one of the reasons time delay fuses for motor loads have been so
>popular over the years.
>
>Lew
>
>
23 amps is 76% of 30 amps. I run a 21 FLA motor on a 30 amp circuit
(70%) and a 14 FLA motor on a 20 amp circuit (70%) with multiple,
frequent starts every day. Not a single breaker trip yet. During
testing of the 21 FLA motor, I had it on a 20 amp circuit. Multiple
starts, no trips and 105% load to capacity.. The only time it did trip
the breaker was in an overloaded condition when it was drawing 44
measured amps (on a 20 amp breaker) and the breaker still didn't trip
for about 30-45 seconds.
If his motor is tripping a 30 amp breaker within a few seconds of
startup, there's something definitely wrong. But startup surge is not
it. Residential type breakers, unlike the old fusible link "fuses",
are "time-delay" devices and have a overload/time to trip curve. They
will accept very significant overloads (see above - 44 on a 20) for
varying durations. Very high overloads for short durations, low
overloads for long duration. Unless the breaker is defective, a 30 amp
residential service circuit breaker will accept the start surge from a
23 FLA motor for a much longer time than that necessary to get the
motor up to rated RPM.
Even on motor circuits, and this isn't one of those, the NEC calls for
a 25% headroom (if I remember correctly) on the circuit. That is
essentially what the OP has. The oversizing breakers, again, if I
remember correctly, is to accommodate very hard starting systems, for
example, conveyor belt systems that may have to start under load and
take an extended time to come up to rated RPM, during which time the
motor(s) draw much higher current than normal - the "inrush" current.
And, again, IIRC, motors on such circuits have to either have internal
thermal protection or overload protected starters.
Although a Dust Collector motor has a harder job bringing a high
inertia impeller up to speed than does, say, a table saw bringing a
10" blade disk up to speed, it still doesn't qualify as "hard to
start". Incidentally, the 21 FLA motor mentioned above is the motor on
my Dust Collector and was driving the DC impeller during all the
testing - including the time it spent on the 20 amp circuit.
Also consider this. I know the breaker is there to protect the wiring,
not the load, but if the motor is not equipped with an external
starter with overload protection (most 2HP motors aren't) and doesn't
have internal thermal protection breakers (some do, many don't) the
breaker in the panel is the only overload protection the motor has. If
whatever is wrong is something that will trip the 30 but wouldn't trip
the 50 amp breaker (unlikely, but possible), then plugging it into a
50 amp circuit will essentially impose a death sentence on the motor -
assuming it's not already shot.
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
Contact your electrician or electrical supply house. You need a
"slow blow" fuse to get everything up and running. The newer
SquareD breakers wouldn't run in my shop - the electrician changed
them all out in the panel. No problems.
--
______________________________
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)
[email protected]
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Here's all the data from the plate, Lew:
>
> Here's all the data from the motor plate, Lew.
>
> Volts: 115/230
> Amps: 23/15
> 2 hp
> 1 ph
> 3450 RPM
> 2 pole
> 60 cycle
>
> Any ideas will be appreciated.
>
>
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> So ... can I swap use the #10 wire and up the circuit to 50
>>> amps or do I need to run #8?
>>
>> You need #6AWG for a 50A service.
>>
>> Do your self a favor and post the following name plate data
>> from the motor as follows:
>>
>> Volts:_____________
>>
>> Amps:_____________
>>
>> Life may not be all that difficult.
>>
>> Lew
>>
>>
On Sep 17, 9:23=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I got a steal (maybe) on a Jet dust collector. =A0The tag says it draws 2=
3
> amps, which I assume is the peak amperagw on start up. =A0I have a new 30
> amp circuit in the shop. =A0It's popping the 30 amp fuse each time I try
> to start her up. =A0Any ideas? =A0I need to get my $2/BF 4/4 clear walnut
> (minor gloat) cleaned up and the planer is spitting shavings all over
> the shop, some of which I managed to track across SWMBO's rug. =A0Not
> pleased with me, is she. =A0She fails to see the value in me spending six
> of what we used to call boat units on this set up when I could buy
> perfectly good finished stock at the lumber yard.
>
> Larry
Is the motor jamming up? It may have a large chip in the impeller
stopping it from turning...that would cause it to overload your cb. If
the impeller is turning it should suck air. Does it start sucking air
right away? If not unplug it and take it apart to check for
obstruction near or within the impeller assebly.
[email protected] wrote:
> I got a steal (maybe) on a Jet dust collector. The tag says it draws 23
> amps, which I assume is the peak amperagw on start up. I have a new 30
> amp circuit in the shop. It's popping the 30 amp fuse each time I try
> to start her up. Any ideas?
What voltage? 23A @ 120V would be something otoh 2 hp so I'm guessing
that's it. Running a 240V circuit would probably be cheaper than a time
delay relay if it is simply the starting surge.
Of course, as someone else noted, you got anything else on that circuit?
And it's run w/ 10ga, right?
--
[email protected] wrote:
...
> Volts: 115/230
> Amps: 23/15
...
> Any ideas will be appreciated.
...
As I suspected, it's 2hp dual-voltage motor--convert the circuit to 230V
and rewire the motor connections for 230V and you'll halve the current
draw.
--
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I got a steal (maybe) on a Jet dust collector. The tag says it draws 23
>amps, which I assume is the peak amperagw on start up. I have a new 30 amp
>circuit in the shop. It's popping the 30 amp fuse each time I try to start
>her up. Any ideas? I need to get my $2/BF 4/4 clear walnut (minor gloat)
>cleaned up and the planer is spitting shavings all over the shop, some of
>which I managed to track across SWMBO's rug. Not pleased with me, is she.
>She fails to see the value in me spending six of what we used to call boat
>units on this set up when I could buy perfectly good finished stock at the
>lumber yard.
>
> Larry
I seriousely doubt the tag is indicating peek. That is probably indicating
normal draw and starting up is going to be considerably more.
23 amp is pretty high, how big is the motor?