I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely people
here will argue about it. This should be interesting.
I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two
bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom
rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp.
I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go. I find
that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the clamps at
hand and set to something like the right opening before I apply any
glue.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8583909737/in/photostream/lightbox/
and
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8585009670/in/photostream/lightbox/
I have two questions:
Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would
two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units
are 21" wide.
I have shown five pipe-style clamps on each side (one at each T
intersection) plus some cheap bar clamps in between the shelves that
are further apart. Do I also need clamps between the shelves that are
closer together? Those are 11.25" apart on center.
I feel I'm going to get a lesson on cauls, which, if quick and simple,
I could consider. But my spare time has become very spare indeed
lately.
Thanks in advance.
On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 11:32:48 -0400, Greg Guarino <[email protected]>
>On 3/25/2013 2:31 AM, Dave wrote:
>> I've*never* been able
>> glue wood to plywood edging and been able to call it a strong
>> connection.
>
>I'm curious, did any such joints actually come loose? Did you perhaps
>try to pry one apart and find that it was indeed weaker than you would
>like?
Initially, I glued a 1" thick strip of pine to a plywood veneered
table edge that I built. It started coming off about a month after I
built the table.
I removed all the pine edging and then shaved about 1/4" off the
plywood table edge to remove the remnants of soaked in hardened glue.
Then I tried gluing again with a different brand of yellow carpenter's
glue. Same problem happened again about two months later.
All of this seems really strange because after the second try, I glued
on a roll of veneer stripping and that's stayed on quite well ever
since then.
I can only surmise, that pressure (such as elbows) put downwards force
on the table edge. Other than that, to be honest, I'm not sure where
the problem lay. Maybe it was me and my technique, the type of glue I
used or something else.
That's my limited experience with it. I've never tried again.
On 3/23/2013 11:19 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would
> two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units
> are 21" wide.
It's hard to use too many, and easy to not use enough.
Base it on the material, and the particular job ... if there is any
doubt whether you have enough by the way the job is clamping up (as in
is some of the material bowed and not making good contact?), add more to
those spots, it will rarely hurt to do so; if not, don't worry about it.
Your photos appear to be just about right for most face frame glue-ups.
Just remember, to effectively glue two wood parts together with most
modern wood glues you need both contact between the parts, and adequate
pressure (which may vary with the application).
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 10:42:11 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>My second is wet wood-- the pine, maybe. Silly question, but was either
>product pressure treated in any way? Was the pine recycled from another
>project and treated with any kind of finish or solvent?
Nothing pressure treated or finished in any way ~ at least before the
glue dried and then I applied a Minwax stain and finish.
It occurred to me that the glue I applied didn't adhere well to the
layers of wood already glued together with the plywood. Or maybe,
just really poor quality plywood. In any event, it was a number of
years ago that I last worked on this and I haven't tried a similar
construction since.
Maybe it's time to try again, if only for information's sake.
On Mar 24, 8:16=A0am, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> dadiOH wrote:
> > Greg Guarino wrote:
> >> I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely
> >> people here will argue about it. This should be interesting.
>
> >> I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two
> >> bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom
> >> rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and
> >> clamp. I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go.
> >> I find that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the
> >> clamps at hand and set to something like the right opening before I
> >> apply any glue.
>
> >>http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8583909737/in/photostream/ligh..=
.
>
> >> and
>
> >>http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8585009670/in/photostream/ligh..=
.
>
> >> I have two questions:
>
> >> Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or
> >> would two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The
> >> units are 21" wide.
>
> > Two would be enough, three won't hurt.
>
> > Why no clamps on top & bottom rails?
>
> Because he has stated that he used pocket screws for the top and bottom
> rails. That lead me though, why not just use pocket screws for all of the
> rails, since they won't be seen.
Well, they could be seen, if one were to look under the shelves. This
will be easy to do for the upper shelves, as these units will rest on
existing boxes that raise them up about 30". The top shelf will be
above eye height, at least for height-challenged folks like me.
The better question is why I shouldn't use pocket screws for the
stiles, drilled in from the outside of the boxes. These two bookcase
units will be flanked on one side by another bookcase and on the other
by the side walls of the room. The answer is that I did consider it,
and haven't entirely rejected the idea. I just wonder if I'll regret
it someday. By Murphy's Law, putting pocket holes in the outside walls
of the cabinets will guarantee that we'll need to re-purpose them at
some point; the new configuration exposing the sides.
Now this is a pretty minor concern, and I could be convinced otherwise
if I thought it was structurally necessary to reinforce the glue. Is
it?
On Mar 24, 12:51=A0am, Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 21:19:32 -0700 (PDT), Greg Guarino
>
> >bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom
> >rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp.
>
> =A0Despite the holding properties of proper glue usage and clamping, I'd
> never just glue on any part of your project. Almost everything I
> build, I overbuild. To that end, I'd use my Domino and/or my Kreg
> wherever possible.
That's one of the reasons that I made all of the shelves fixed, in
dadoes. My experience is limited, but I have trouble imagining these
boxes failing with so many glued joints. They will also have backs,
rabbeted in, and the face frames.
Greg Guarino wrote:
I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely people
here will argue about it. This should be interesting.
I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two
bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom
rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp.
I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go. I find
that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the clamps at
hand and set to something like the right opening before I apply any
glue.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8583909737/in/photostream/lightbox/
and
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8585009670/in/photostream/lightbox/
I have two questions:
Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would
two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units
are 21" wide.
I have shown five pipe-style clamps on each side (one at each T
intersection) plus some cheap bar clamps in between the shelves that
are further apart. Do I also need clamps between the shelves that are
closer together? Those are 11.25" apart on center.
I feel I'm going to get a lesson on cauls, which, if quick and
simple,
I could consider. But my spare time has become very spare indeed
lately.
--------------------------------------------------
Other than use biscuits to maintain registration between carcass
and F/F, what does your gut tell you?
Lew
Dave wrote:
>> Despite the holding properties of proper glue usage and clamping,
>> I'd
>> never just glue on any part of your project. Almost everything I
>> build, I overbuild. To that end, I'd use my Domino and/or my Kreg
>> wherever possible.
"-MIKE-" wrote:
> Coming from someone (me) who generally over-engineers everything,
> your
> statement in way too general to be good advice. :-)
>
> You said it yourself in your first sentence, "Despite the holding
> properties of proper glue usage and clamping..."
> If there's no load on a joint, it's just plain silly to use
> dowel/tenons
> or screws for strength. In any non-load bearing joint, if the glue
> alone
> isn't strong enough, the joint isn't designed properly. Even a butt
> joint with modern glue is strong enough.
>
> Unless they are serving another purpose, screws or dowels/tenons are
> a
> waste of time and resources. Tenons for alignment are a another
> story.
> They are great way to help perfectly align a joint while clamping or
> until the glue cures.
>
> Pocket screws are a great way to clamp, but according to Kreg and
> confirmed by my experience, they negate the need for glue. I use
> pocket
> screws to clamp all the time, in places they won't be seen, when I
> don't
> have enough clamps or I don't want to wait for the glue to cure
> before
> moving to the next step in the project. Sometimes, after the glue
> dries,
> I'll take the screws out and recycle them because the are no longer
> doing anything useful-- they were simply tiny clamps.
>
> For the OP's bookcase project, assuming he used dado joints for the
> shelves, I see nothing that requires anything other than glue for
> strength and holding.
------------------------------------------------------------
With the advent of modern day adhesives, the relative strength
advantage of fastners v. adhesives for joints is greatly over rated.
Ever wonder how Boeing is securing all that carbon fiber they
are using to build the current airplanes they are producing?
Think maybe various epoxy formulations might be involved?
Adhesive for shear load applications is a tough joint to beat.
Tensile load joints, not so much, but then tensile joints are no
winner for fastners either.
Lew
"dadiOH" wrote:
> Given the usefulness of plywood and the ugliness of the edges, the
> ability to glue solid wood to the edges should be cultivated. It
> isn't hard either; all you need is...
>
> 1. smooth, square edges on both ply and wood
>
> 2. sufficient glue
>
> 3. sufficient pressure to hold them together until the glue dries.
>
> Your previous failure may have been due to any or all of the above
> but I'm thinking the most likely is insufficient glue. You don't
> want so much that gobs squeeze out but enough to get a line of
> roughly pin head sized globules.
>
> All in all, much easier to apply than to trim flush.
--------------------------------------------------------------
IMHO, exposed raw plywood edges are like ugly on an ape.
I prefer to band plywood visible edges with an interlocked tongue
and groove glued joint as follows:
(Think of tongue and groove construction used with wooden siding
of years ago.)
Assume a 3/4" plywood and a visible 3/4" solid wood edge.
Run a 1/4" x 9/32" deep dado centered on the 3/4" plywood edge.
Starting with a 1" x 3/4" solid wood piece, cut a 1/4" thick x 1/4"
long
tenon centered on the 3/4" solid wood piece.
(This yields a 3/4" x 3/4" solid wood band when assembled.)
The assembled edge banding yield a 33% increase in the gluing area of
the final joint (3/4"^2 vs, 1"^2) as well as creating a 3/4" vertical
interlock of solid wood.
Quick, low cost, and strong like bull.
The biggest PITA of the whole process is making sure the wood is flush
with the plywood after assembly, IMHO.
BTW, have used rubber bands and a dowel pin as clamps while the glue
dries. Surgical tubing also works.
Lew
"-MIKE-" wrote:
> I gave up spending the time and effort to even try to make them
> flush
> when gluing and setting up. Now I simply make install them a bit
> proud
> on purpose and then trim them flush with a pattern bit in the
> router.
------------------------------------------
Be carefull.
I've used this technique and had a bit that cleaned up the wood
but also left cutter marks on the plywood.
After that ran test cuts with a different bit.
No problems.
Lew
Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> The biggest PITA of the whole process is making sure the wood is
>> flush with the plywood after assembly, IMHO.
-------------------------------------------------------
"-MIKE-" wrote:
> I gave up spending the time and effort to even try to make them
> flush
> when gluing and setting up. Now I simply make install them a bit
> proud
> on purpose and then trim them flush with a pattern bit in the
> router.
--------------------------------------------------------------
The "Tongue and Groove" technique minimizes this problem.
Start by measuring the thickness of the plywood using a dial caliper.
Plane the wood equal to the thickness of the plywood + 0.020".
Center cut the "tongue" and "groove" cuts on the respective parts.
Glue the assembly together.
The result will be a joint that leaves the solid wood 0,010" proud
on both top and bottom surfaces, well within the scope of a scraper
for final finish.
The scraper can easily be positioned to clear the plywood surface.
Just another way to skin a cat,
Lew
On Mar 24, 3:44=A0pm, woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3/24/2013 12:19 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely people
> > here will argue about it. This should be interesting.
>
> > I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two
> > bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom
> > rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp.
> > I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go. I find
> > that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the clamps at
> > hand and set to something like the right opening before I apply any
> > glue.
>
> >http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8583909737/in/photostream/ligh...
>
> > and
>
> >http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8585009670/in/photostream/ligh...
>
> > I have two questions:
>
> > Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would
> > two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units
> > are 21" wide.
>
> > I have shown five pipe-style clamps on each side (one at each T
> > intersection) plus some cheap bar clamps in between the shelves that
> > are further apart. Do I also need clamps between the shelves that are
> > closer together? Those are 11.25" apart on center.
>
> > I feel I'm going to get a lesson on cauls, which, if quick and simple,
> > I could consider. But my spare time has become very spare indeed
> > lately.
>
> > Thanks in advance.
>
> Of course you realize that there is no hard and fast rule. and opinions
> will vary.
>
> I have no rule. Just what I feel. Sometimes I over clamp... looks like a
> porcupine, sometimes not. Cauls are nice if you have them made ahead of
> time. I tooks some 2x4's and ripped them in half then I planed them so
> that they have a nice bow. so one side is flat and one arches.
> I use either depending.
>
> Now that I haven't given you an answer, are you finishing the face frame
> first? or after?
>
> --
> Jeff
First. They're done, actually.
On 3/24/2013 12:19 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely people
> here will argue about it. This should be interesting.
>
> I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two
> bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom
> rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp.
> I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go. I find
> that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the clamps at
> hand and set to something like the right opening before I apply any
> glue.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8583909737/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
> and
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8585009670/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
> I have two questions:
>
> Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would
> two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units
> are 21" wide.
>
> I have shown five pipe-style clamps on each side (one at each T
> intersection) plus some cheap bar clamps in between the shelves that
> are further apart. Do I also need clamps between the shelves that are
> closer together? Those are 11.25" apart on center.
>
> I feel I'm going to get a lesson on cauls, which, if quick and simple,
> I could consider. But my spare time has become very spare indeed
> lately.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
Greg, see the binaries...
--
Jeff
Greg Guarino <[email protected]> wrote:
> I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely people
> here will argue about it. This should be interesting.
>
> I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two
> bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom
> rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp.
> I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go. I find
> that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the clamps at
> hand and set to something like the right opening before I apply any
> glue.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8583909737/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
> and
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8585009670/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
> I have two questions:
>
> Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would
> two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units
> are 21" wide
You only need enough to eliminate/close the gap.
>
> I have shown five pipe-style clamps on each side (one at each T
> intersection) plus some cheap bar clamps in between the shelves that
> are further apart. Do I also need clamps between the shelves that are
> closer together? Those are 11.25" apart on center.
See above.
>
> I feel I'm going to get a lesson on cauls, which, if quick and simple,
> I could consider. But my spare time has become very spare indeed
> lately.
>
Calls would eliminate the need for so many clamps b
> Thanks in advance.
On 3/26/2013 2:14 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 3/25/2013 8:55 AM, woodchucker wrote:
>> Just meant to show that cauls can be simple and also used for other
>> things.
>
> So enlighten me here. I've seen cauls (pictures of them anyway) that
> have a very slight curve on the surface that will touch the work. Your
> picture has a much sharper curve at each end than I would have expected,
> and I can't tell if the middle is curved or not.
>
> My understanding is that the curve on the business edge is to provide
> clamping pressure in the middle even though the clamps are only applied
> to the ends. What is the pronounced curvature near the ends of your
> cauls for?
Different caulse for different purposes.
I can bend these puppies very well, all the way flat. That's why they
taper so much.
Yes the middle gets a lot of pressure. There is a slight flat in the
middle, I started with a smooth radius. They were too thick in the
middle. As I played with them, I got them so that I can use most or all
of the caul. I have cauls that are less pronounced, but these are my
favorite. They haven't split, and do many different tasks. They are
super light, they work well on dovetails since they will imprint a
little. They don't mar.
My maple cauls are heavy less radiused.. lift about 1/8 from center to
end .
One of the great things about making things is being willing to
experiment. When the cost is not high try it. Try different things.
Sometimes what you hear is not always true. Sometimes there is good
reason that everyone does it one way. Cauls can be totally flat and just
spread the clamping pressure out. I chose to try something that would
fit many uses. As you can see, I use it for my dovetailing. I started
using it the opposite way, but it required a lot more turning of the
clamps. turning it over required less (why because of the large crown
that you asked about). But in an instant i can turn it over and squeeze
the living snot out of that board and have it so rigid I could drive a
chisel into the end if I wanted to.
So much for my book on a little question.
_So what stain did you use on your Shelves.. I like it and want the same._
--
Jeff
On 3/25/2013 11:32 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 3/25/2013 2:31 AM, Dave wrote:
>> I've*never* been able
>> glue wood to plywood edging and been able to call it a strong
>> connection.
>
> I'm curious, did any such joints actually come loose? Did you perhaps
> try to pry one apart and find that it was indeed weaker than you would
> like?
Greg, you won't have a problem with the face frame coming off.
it will be fine.
--
Jeff
On 3/26/2013 8:50 PM, Amy Guarino wrote:
> On Mar 26, 6:35 pm, woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 3/26/2013 2:14 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:> On 3/25/2013 8:55 AM, woodchucker wrote:
>>>> Just meant to show that cauls can be simple and also used for other
>>>> things.
>>
>>> So enlighten me here. I've seen cauls (pictures of them anyway) that
>>> have a very slight curve on the surface that will touch the work. Your
>>> picture has a much sharper curve at each end than I would have expected,
>>> and I can't tell if the middle is curved or not.
>>
>>> My understanding is that the curve on the business edge is to provide
>>> clamping pressure in the middle even though the clamps are only applied
>>> to the ends. What is the pronounced curvature near the ends of your
>>> cauls for?
>>
>> Different caulse for different purposes.
>>
>> I can bend these puppies very well, all the way flat. That's why they
>> taper so much.
>>
>> Yes the middle gets a lot of pressure. There is a slight flat in the
>> middle, I started with a smooth radius. They were too thick in the
>> middle. As I played with them, I got them so that I can use most or all
>> of the caul. I have cauls that are less pronounced, but these are my
>> favorite. They haven't split, and do many different tasks. They are
>> super light, they work well on dovetails since they will imprint a
>> little. They don't mar.
>>
>> My maple cauls are heavy less radiused.. lift about 1/8 from center to
>> end .
>>
>> One of the great things about making things is being willing to
>> experiment. When the cost is not high try it. Try different things.
>> Sometimes what you hear is not always true. Sometimes there is good
>> reason that everyone does it one way. Cauls can be totally flat and just
>> spread the clamping pressure out. I chose to try something that would
>> fit many uses. As you can see, I use it for my dovetailing. I started
>> using it the opposite way, but it required a lot more turning of the
>> clamps. turning it over required less (why because of the large crown
>> that you asked about). But in an instant i can turn it over and squeeze
>> the living snot out of that board and have it so rigid I could drive a
>> chisel into the end if I wanted to.
>>
>> So much for my book on a little question.
>> _So what stain did you use on your Shelves.. I like it and want the same._
>>
>> --
>> Jeff
>
> Funny thing, that. I experimented with various combinations of MinWax
> (Wood Finish) stains and came up with a small sample that I liked.
> Then I tried to recreate it in a larger batch. Needless to say, it
> never came out quite the same. I came up with a pretty decent mix, but
> in the end decided to go with Gunstock, right out of the can. This is
> partly because I knew I'd be able to recreate it anytime. I left it on
> for just about the maximum recommended time before wiping.
>
> I'm pleased with the results, although I'm not sure the combination of
> my camera, a mix of fluorescent and incandescent lights and the
> monitor on your computer adds up to faithful reproduction.
>
Thanks, was that a gel or oil based solvent stain?
--
Jeff
On 3/24/2013 11:24 PM, Amy Guarino wrote:
> On Mar 24, 6:14 pm, woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 3/24/2013 12:19 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> Greg, see the binaries...
>>
>> --
>> Jeff
>
> No binary access. I use Eternal September on one computer and GG
> (until I get around to fixing it) on this one.
>
Greg see the first two images in:
http://imgur.com/a/YbWt2#0
Just meant to show that cauls can be simple and also used for other
things. I turn them around at times to lightly clamp for dovetailing.
BTW what stain did you use on your inside. I like the color.
--
Jeff
Greg Guarino <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> I have two questions:
>
> Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would
> two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units
> are 21" wide.
>
regardless of the project size I always use 36 8' 3/4" pipe bar clamps.
:)
On 3/27/2013 8:21 PM, Amy Guarino wrote:
>> --
>> Jeff
>
> Oil based.
>
Thanks I like that Gunstock... never worked with it.
A friend that is moving just unloaded all of his stains on me.. I'll
have to see if there's any in there.
I added a few more pics to show how much I can bend these cauls.
I can get them flat, but with different clamps . Not enough travel with
those.
http://imgur.com/a/wLzRs#0
A woodworker can never have too many clamps, or enough clamp helpers.
They are quick to make, can be changed easily with a handplane.
you can cut v notches if you had to hold a bunch of dowels...
Cauls can be anything flat, round to hold staves for a barrel. etc..
They can save you when you run out of clamps.
I have over 200 clamps, but sometimes that is not enough, not the right
kind or enough of the right length. These can help get you through.
I also have what I call squaring corners. Another type of caul that has
facets on it. I can pull an out of square box into square and hold it
while the glue sets. It also pulls the joint tight.
Not like the wire spring clamps, but these do the trick.
--
Jeff
On Mar 24, 2:17=A0pm, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Greg Guarino wrote:
> > Well, they could be seen, if one were to look under the shelves. This
> > will be easy to do for the upper shelves, as these units will rest on
> > existing boxes that raise them up about 30". The top shelf will be
> > above eye height, at least for height-challenged folks like me.
>
> Got it. =A0In that case, would the plugs that are designed for pocket hol=
es be
> unacceptable to you? =A0They'd still show somewhat, but not to the casual
> observer.
True, and I did consider doing that. But it turns out that the plugs
are a little too long for 3/4" material and would need to be cut down.
And as I stained the ply, they'd have to be stained as well, and
surely wouldn't quite match. All of that could be acceptable if I was
convinced that there was some need. But my sense of it is that the
glue alone will be adequate. I could be wrong; a common enough
occurrence when the topic is woodworking.
On Mar 28, 5:29=A0am, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
> > On 3/27/13 1:48 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> >> "-MIKE-" wrote:
>
> >>> I gave up spending the time and effort to even try to make them
> >>> flush when gluing and setting up. =A0Now I simply make install them a
> >>> bit proud on purpose and then trim them flush with a pattern bit in
> >>> the router.
> >> ------------------------------------------ Be carefull.
>
> >> I've used this technique and had a bit that cleaned up the wood but
> >> also left cutter marks on the plywood.
>
> >> After that ran test cuts with a different bit.
>
> >> No problems.
>
> >> Lew
>
> > You are correct, not all bits are the same. =A0I prefer a to start with
> > a quality bit that is more likely to have an exact match between the
> > cutter and the bearing.
>
> > This isn't to say that a cheap bit will be off, but testing on some
> > scrap is recommended. =A0We talking thou's here, so it's not something
> > you can see by looking at the edge of the bit or even using a
> > straight edge to check.
>
> > ALSO... if you're not perfectly square to the table, meaning there
> > will be a slight angle to the pattern bit, you can end up cutting
> > into the plywood surface. =A0DAMHIKT. =A0 :-)
>
> > You can also guard against this by raising your bit *only* high enough
> > to cut the solid wood and not the plywood. =A0It's tricky, but I've
> > gotten pretty good and fast at it.
>
> For those less experienced, one can also leave a sliver of wood which is
> then easily removed with a chisel. =A0Or file.
>
> It can also be done other ways; by hand, eg. =A0I've also done it with pl=
aner
> blades in a molding head on a radial arm saw.
I used a rabbet plane to trim down the solid oak edging around a
desktop I made. The picture quality is lacking, but these photos
illustrate the concept:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6248117874/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/6247597691/lightbox/
It was easy to set the plane's fence to cut only the edging. I think I
may even have set the depth stop to be flush with the bottom of the
plane iron at first, but I may have been afraid it would leave
scratches; I don't see it in the pictures I took.
On Mar 24, 6:14=A0pm, woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3/24/2013 12:19 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely people
> > here will argue about it. This should be interesting.
>
> > I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two
> > bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom
> > rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp.
> > I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go. I find
> > that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the clamps at
> > hand and set to something like the right opening before I apply any
> > glue.
>
> >http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8583909737/in/photostream/ligh...
>
> > and
>
> >http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8585009670/in/photostream/ligh...
>
> > I have two questions:
>
> > Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would
> > two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units
> > are 21" wide.
>
> > I have shown five pipe-style clamps on each side (one at each T
> > intersection) plus some cheap bar clamps in between the shelves that
> > are further apart. Do I also need clamps between the shelves that are
> > closer together? Those are 11.25" apart on center.
>
> > I feel I'm going to get a lesson on cauls, which, if quick and simple,
> > I could consider. But my spare time has become very spare indeed
> > lately.
>
> > Thanks in advance.
>
> Greg, see the binaries...
>
> --
> Jeff
No binary access. I use Eternal September on one computer and GG
(until I get around to fixing it) on this one.
On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 10:48:21 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>In the case of gluing *and* finish-nailing a face frame, I still contend
>that the purpose of the nails is to act as clamps until the glue dries.
>Norm used to mention this a lot on his show.
I always thought, maybe mistakenly that the glue was just to add some
extra holding power. And yes, I've read the articles stating that a
properly glued wood connection is superior strength to the wood
surrounding the joint.
On Mar 26, 6:35=A0pm, woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3/26/2013 2:14 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:> On 3/25/2013 8:55 AM, woodchuc=
ker wrote:
> >> Just meant to show that cauls can be simple and also used for other
> >> things.
>
> > So enlighten me here. I've seen cauls (pictures of them anyway) that
> > have a very slight curve on the surface that will touch the work. Your
> > picture has a much sharper curve at each end than I would have expected=
,
> > and I can't tell if the middle is curved or not.
>
> > My understanding is that the curve on the business edge is to provide
> > clamping pressure in the middle even though the clamps are only applied
> > to the ends. What is the pronounced curvature near the ends of your
> > cauls for?
>
> Different caulse for different purposes.
>
> I can bend these puppies very well, all the way flat. That's why they
> taper so much.
>
> Yes the middle gets a lot of pressure. There is a slight flat in the
> middle, I started with a smooth radius. They were too thick in the
> middle. As I played with them, I got them so that I can use most or all
> of the caul. =A0I have cauls that are less pronounced, but these are my
> favorite. They haven't split, and do many different tasks. They are
> super light, they work well on dovetails since they will imprint a
> little. =A0They don't mar.
>
> My maple cauls are heavy less radiused.. lift about 1/8 from center to
> end .
>
> One of the great things about making things is being willing to
> experiment. When the cost is not high try it. Try different things.
> Sometimes what you hear is not always true. Sometimes there is good
> reason that everyone does it one way. Cauls can be totally flat and just
> spread the clamping pressure out. I chose to try something that would
> fit many uses. As you can see, I use it for my dovetailing. I started
> using it the opposite way, but it required a lot more turning of the
> clamps. turning it over required less (why because of the large crown
> that you asked about). But in an instant i can turn it over and squeeze
> the living snot out of that board and have it so rigid I could drive a
> chisel into the end if I wanted to.
>
> So much for my book on a little question.
> _So what stain did you use on your Shelves.. I like it and want the same.=
_
>
> --
> Jeff
Funny thing, that. I experimented with various combinations of MinWax
(Wood Finish) stains and came up with a small sample that I liked.
Then I tried to recreate it in a larger batch. Needless to say, it
never came out quite the same. I came up with a pretty decent mix, but
in the end decided to go with Gunstock, right out of the can. This is
partly because I knew I'd be able to recreate it anytime. I left it on
for just about the maximum recommended time before wiping.
I'm pleased with the results, although I'm not sure the combination of
my camera, a mix of fluorescent and incandescent lights and the
monitor on your computer adds up to faithful reproduction.
On 3/24/2013 12:19 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely people
> here will argue about it. This should be interesting.
>
> I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two
> bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom
> rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp.
> I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go. I find
> that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the clamps at
> hand and set to something like the right opening before I apply any
> glue.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8583909737/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
> and
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8585009670/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
> I have two questions:
>
> Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would
> two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units
> are 21" wide.
>
> I have shown five pipe-style clamps on each side (one at each T
> intersection) plus some cheap bar clamps in between the shelves that
> are further apart. Do I also need clamps between the shelves that are
> closer together? Those are 11.25" apart on center.
>
> I feel I'm going to get a lesson on cauls, which, if quick and simple,
> I could consider. But my spare time has become very spare indeed
> lately.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
Of course you realize that there is no hard and fast rule. and opinions
will vary.
I have no rule. Just what I feel. Sometimes I over clamp... looks like a
porcupine, sometimes not. Cauls are nice if you have them made ahead of
time. I tooks some 2x4's and ripped them in half then I planed them so
that they have a nice bow. so one side is flat and one arches.
I use either depending.
Now that I haven't given you an answer, are you finishing the face frame
first? or after?
--
Jeff
On Mar 27, 6:33=A0pm, woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3/26/2013 8:50 PM, Amy Guarino wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 26, 6:35 pm, woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> On 3/26/2013 2:14 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:> On 3/25/2013 8:55 AM, woodc=
hucker wrote:
> >>>> Just meant to show that cauls can be simple and also used for other
> >>>> things.
>
> >>> So enlighten me here. I've seen cauls (pictures of them anyway) that
> >>> have a very slight curve on the surface that will touch the work. You=
r
> >>> picture has a much sharper curve at each end than I would have expect=
ed,
> >>> and I can't tell if the middle is curved or not.
>
> >>> My understanding is that the curve on the business edge is to provide
> >>> clamping pressure in the middle even though the clamps are only appli=
ed
> >>> to the ends. What is the pronounced curvature near the ends of your
> >>> cauls for?
>
> >> Different caulse for different purposes.
>
> >> I can bend these puppies very well, all the way flat. That's why they
> >> taper so much.
>
> >> Yes the middle gets a lot of pressure. There is a slight flat in the
> >> middle, I started with a smooth radius. They were too thick in the
> >> middle. As I played with them, I got them so that I can use most or al=
l
> >> of the caul. =A0I have cauls that are less pronounced, but these are m=
y
> >> favorite. They haven't split, and do many different tasks. They are
> >> super light, they work well on dovetails since they will imprint a
> >> little. =A0They don't mar.
>
> >> My maple cauls are heavy less radiused.. lift about 1/8 from center to
> >> end .
>
> >> One of the great things about making things is being willing to
> >> experiment. When the cost is not high try it. Try different things.
> >> Sometimes what you hear is not always true. Sometimes there is good
> >> reason that everyone does it one way. Cauls can be totally flat and ju=
st
> >> spread the clamping pressure out. I chose to try something that would
> >> fit many uses. As you can see, I use it for my dovetailing. I started
> >> using it the opposite way, but it required a lot more turning of the
> >> clamps. turning it over required less (why because of the large crown
> >> that you asked about). But in an instant i can turn it over and squeez=
e
> >> the living snot out of that board and have it so rigid I could drive a
> >> chisel into the end if I wanted to.
>
> >> So much for my book on a little question.
> >> _So what stain did you use on your Shelves.. I like it and want the sa=
me._
>
> >> --
> >> Jeff
>
> > Funny thing, that. I experimented with various combinations of MinWax
> > (Wood Finish) stains and came up with a small sample that I liked.
> > Then I tried to recreate it in a larger batch. Needless to say, it
> > never came out quite the same. I came up with a pretty decent mix, but
> > in the end decided to go with Gunstock, right out of the can. This is
> > partly because I knew I'd be able to recreate it anytime. I left it on
> > for just about the maximum recommended time before wiping.
>
> > I'm pleased with the results, although I'm not sure the combination of
> > my camera, a mix of fluorescent and incandescent lights and the
> > monitor on your computer adds up to faithful reproduction.
>
> Thanks, was that a gel or oil based solvent stain?
>
> --
> Jeff
Oil based.
http://www.flooranddecoroutlets.com/s51417956.html
On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 12:46:22 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>will add some strength, especially if glued. But glue AND fasteners is
>beyond overkill and simply a waste.
Possibly. Much of what we build is dependent on how we've built things
through the years. For quite a few years, I used a blind nailer on my
face frames, something I bought a long, long time ago from Lee Valley
Tools.
Essentially, it's a mini-plane that raises a thin shaving of wood. I'd
then drill a slightly undersized hole in that space and drive in a
countersunk finishing nail. The raised shaving would then be glued
back down and clamped in place for about ten minutes. I produced an
invisible method of joining my face frames.
That method worked really well for a long time. Then I bought a Domino
and just like the biscuit joiner, I haven't used the blind nailer
since.
On Mar 24, 9:22=A0am, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Greg Guarino wrote:
>
> I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely people
> here will argue about it. This should be interesting.
>
> I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two
> bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom
> rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp.
> I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go. I find
> that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the clamps at
> hand and set to something like the right opening before I apply any
> glue.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8583909737/in/photostream/ligh...
>
> and
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8585009670/in/photostream/ligh...
>
> I have two questions:
>
> Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would
> two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units
> are 21" wide.
>
> I have shown five pipe-style clamps on each side (one at each T
> intersection) plus some cheap bar clamps in between the shelves that
> are further apart. Do I also need clamps between the shelves that are
> closer together? Those are 11.25" apart on center.
>
> =A0I feel I'm going to get a lesson on cauls, which, if quick and
> simple,
> I could consider. But my spare time has become very spare indeed
> lately.
> --------------------------------------------------
> Other than use biscuits to maintain registration between carcass
> and F/F, what does your gut tell you?
>
> Lew
I have a few ideas on the subject of "gut". What we call "gut" or
"feel" is a mental association built up over multiple repetitions of
some observation or activity. It's what allows people to accomplish
tasks that are too complex for conscious calculation, like hitting a
curve ball, or playing music without a written score. (In my case,
that would be "yes" for the latter, "no" for the former)
I think I have developed a reasonable mechanical sense over the years,
and what "gut" I have tells me that it will probably work fine, even
with fewer clamps than I show. But I am always willing to learn from
people with better-developed "guts".
On Mar 25, 6:35=A0pm, "Mr. SmartyPants" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Greg Guarino <[email protected]> wrote innews:3a54eb29-212f-4c14-8105-2=
[email protected]:
>
>
>
> > I have two questions:
>
> > Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would
> > two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units
> > are 21" wide.
>
> regardless of the project size I always use 36 8' 3/4" pipe bar clamps.
> :)
Mostly jewelry boxes then?
On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 21:19:32 -0700 (PDT), Greg Guarino
>bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom
>rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp.
Despite the holding properties of proper glue usage and clamping, I'd
never just glue on any part of your project. Almost everything I
build, I overbuild. To that end, I'd use my Domino and/or my Kreg
wherever possible.
But, if I was just gluing, I'd clamp the face frame enough to close
any gaps.
On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 06:51:25 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>> That's my reasoning for more than just glue.
>
>Yeahbut he does have pocket screws holding the face frame on at both the top
>and the bottom rails.
Oh, I'm not saying that the face frame will move, just that my
building preferences demand that most of what I build are comparable
to a tank.
In article <[email protected]>,
Greg Guarino <[email protected]> wrote:
>I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely people
>here will argue about it. This should be interesting.
>
>I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two
>bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom
>rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp.
>I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go. I find
>that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the clamps at
>hand and set to something like the right opening before I apply any
>glue.
>
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8583909737/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
>and
>
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8585009670/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
>I have two questions:
>
>Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would
>two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units
>are 21" wide.
>
>I have shown five pipe-style clamps on each side (one at each T
>intersection) plus some cheap bar clamps in between the shelves that
>are further apart. Do I also need clamps between the shelves that are
>closer together? Those are 11.25" apart on center.
>
>I feel I'm going to get a lesson on cauls, which, if quick and simple,
>I could consider. But my spare time has become very spare indeed
>lately.
>
>Thanks in advance.
Looks like enought to me if you use some cauls or blocks with those bar
clamps.
--
Often wrong, never in doubt.
Larry W. - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org
Greg Guarino wrote:
> I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely people
> here will argue about it. This should be interesting.
>
> I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two
> bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom
> rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp.
> I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go. I find
> that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the clamps at
> hand and set to something like the right opening before I apply any
> glue.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8583909737/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
> and
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8585009670/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
> I have two questions:
>
> Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would
> two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units
> are 21" wide.
Two would be enough, three won't hurt.
Why no clamps on top & bottom rails?
> I have shown five pipe-style clamps on each side (one at each T
> intersection) plus some cheap bar clamps in between the shelves that
> are further apart. Do I also need clamps between the shelves that are
> closer together? Those are 11.25" apart on center.
No.
> I feel I'm going to get a lesson on cauls, which, if quick and simple,
> I could consider. But my spare time has become very spare indeed
> lately.
Faster to eschew clamps and use countersunk screws and face grain bpugs.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net
dadiOH wrote:
> Greg Guarino wrote:
>> I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely
>> people here will argue about it. This should be interesting.
>>
>> I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two
>> bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom
>> rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and
>> clamp. I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go.
>> I find that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the
>> clamps at hand and set to something like the right opening before I
>> apply any glue.
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8583909737/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>
>> and
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8585009670/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>
>> I have two questions:
>>
>> Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or
>> would two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The
>> units are 21" wide.
>
> Two would be enough, three won't hurt.
>
> Why no clamps on top & bottom rails?
>
Because he has stated that he used pocket screws for the top and bottom
rails. That lead me though, why not just use pocket screws for all of the
rails, since they won't be seen.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Mike Marlow wrote:
> dadiOH wrote:
>> Greg Guarino wrote:
>>> I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely
>>> people here will argue about it. This should be interesting.
>>>
>>> I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two
>>> bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom
>>> rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and
>>> clamp. I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go.
>>> I find that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the
>>> clamps at hand and set to something like the right opening before I
>>> apply any glue.
>>>
>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8583909737/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8585009670/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>>
>>> I have two questions:
>>>
>>> Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or
>>> would two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The
>>> units are 21" wide.
>>
>> Two would be enough, three won't hurt.
>>
>> Why no clamps on top & bottom rails?
>>
>
> Because he has stated that he used pocket screws for the top and
> bottom rails. That lead me though, why not just use pocket screws for
> all of the rails, since they won't be seen.
Should have read - That lead me though, to wonder why not...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 3/23/13 11:51 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 21:19:32 -0700 (PDT), Greg Guarino
>> bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom
>> rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp.
>
> Despite the holding properties of proper glue usage and clamping, I'd
> never just glue on any part of your project. Almost everything I
> build, I overbuild. To that end, I'd use my Domino and/or my Kreg
> wherever possible.
>
Coming from someone (me) who generally over-engineers everything, your
statement in way too general to be good advice. :-)
You said it yourself in your first sentence, "Despite the holding
properties of proper glue usage and clamping..."
If there's no load on a joint, it's just plain silly to use dowel/tenons
or screws for strength. In any non-load bearing joint, if the glue alone
isn't strong enough, the joint isn't designed properly. Even a butt
joint with modern glue is strong enough.
Unless they are serving another purpose, screws or dowels/tenons are a
waste of time and resources. Tenons for alignment are a another story.
They are great way to help perfectly align a joint while clamping or
until the glue cures.
Pocket screws are a great way to clamp, but according to Kreg and
confirmed by my experience, they negate the need for glue. I use pocket
screws to clamp all the time, in places they won't be seen, when I don't
have enough clamps or I don't want to wait for the glue to cure before
moving to the next step in the project. Sometimes, after the glue dries,
I'll take the screws out and recycle them because the are no longer
doing anything useful-- they were simply tiny clamps.
For the OP's bookcase project, assuming he used dado joints for the
shelves, I see nothing that requires anything other than glue for
strength and holding.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Greg Guarino wrote:
> Well, they could be seen, if one were to look under the shelves. This
> will be easy to do for the upper shelves, as these units will rest on
> existing boxes that raise them up about 30". The top shelf will be
> above eye height, at least for height-challenged folks like me.
Got it. In that case, would the plugs that are designed for pocket holes be
unacceptable to you? They'd still show somewhat, but not to the casual
observer.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Amy Guarino wrote:
> On Mar 24, 2:17 pm, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> Greg Guarino wrote:
>>> Well, they could be seen, if one were to look under the shelves.
>>> This will be easy to do for the upper shelves, as these units will
>>> rest on existing boxes that raise them up about 30". The top shelf
>>> will be above eye height, at least for height-challenged folks like
>>> me.
>>
>> Got it. In that case, would the plugs that are designed for pocket
>> holes be unacceptable to you? They'd still show somewhat, but not to
>> the casual observer.
>
> True, and I did consider doing that. But it turns out that the plugs
> are a little too long for 3/4" material and would need to be cut down.
> And as I stained the ply, they'd have to be stained as well, and
> surely wouldn't quite match. All of that could be acceptable if I was
> convinced that there was some need. But my sense of it is that the
> glue alone will be adequate. I could be wrong; a common enough
> occurrence when the topic is woodworking.
Oh yeah - don't get me wrong... I believe the glue alone will be sufficient
in conjunction with the pocket screws you already have in place. I was just
thinking out loud so to speak, because I thought you were looking for ideas
to augment the glue some more.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 11:50:15 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> For the OP's bookcase project, assuming he used dado joints for the
>> shelves, I see nothing that requires anything other than glue for
>> strength and holding.
>
> The cabinet sides and shelving are plywood. That being the case, he
> would be gluing hardwood face frames to plywood edging. Maybe I've
> been doing something wrong all these years, but I've *never* been able
> glue wood to plywood edging and been able to call it a strong
> connection.
>
> That's my reasoning for more than just glue.
Yeahbut he does have pocket screws holding the face frame on at both the top
and the bottom rails.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 3/24/2013 12:32 AM, Leon wrote:
>> Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would
>> >two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units
>> >are 21" wide
> You only need enough to eliminate/close the gap.
Thanks for the helpful advice. I inspected the contact between the face
frame and the unit with the clamps on (dry) as shown in the photos I
posted. I could see a gap in one spot and made a mental note to add a
clamp there as per your suggestion.
When I removed the clamps and the face frame to prepare for the actual
gluing, I noticed that there was a very slight "lump" of glue near where
I had seen the gap; it must have squeezed out of the end of the dado
when I glued in the shelves. A few passes with a block plane evened it
out nicely, there, and in another location. After I applied the glue,
face frame and clamps, I inspected that area again: No gap.
On 3/24/2013 7:06 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On Mar 24, 8:16 am, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> dadiOH wrote:
>>> Greg Guarino wrote:
>>>> I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely
>>>> people here will argue about it. This should be interesting.
>>
>>>> I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two
>>>> bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom
>>>> rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and
>>>> clamp. I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go.
>>>> I find that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the
>>>> clamps at hand and set to something like the right opening before I
>>>> apply any glue.
>>
>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8583909737/in/photostream/ligh...
>>
>>>> and
>>
>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/8585009670/in/photostream/ligh...
>>
>>>> I have two questions:
>>
>>>> Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or
>>>> would two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The
>>>> units are 21" wide.
>>
>>> Two would be enough, three won't hurt.
>>
>>> Why no clamps on top & bottom rails?
>>
>> Because he has stated that he used pocket screws for the top and bottom
>> rails. That lead me though, why not just use pocket screws for all of the
>> rails, since they won't be seen.
>
> Well, they could be seen, if one were to look under the shelves. This
> will be easy to do for the upper shelves, as these units will rest on
> existing boxes that raise them up about 30". The top shelf will be
> above eye height, at least for height-challenged folks like me.
you make them be a feature, not a bug. glue in either matching, or
contrasting pocket hole plugs.
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=5756&site=ROCKLER
On 3/25/2013 11:43 AM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 3/25/2013 11:32 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>> On 3/25/2013 2:31 AM, Dave wrote:
>>> I've*never* been able
>>> glue wood to plywood edging and been able to call it a strong
>>> connection.
>>
>> I'm curious, did any such joints actually come loose? Did you perhaps
>> try to pry one apart and find that it was indeed weaker than you would
>> like?
> Greg, you won't have a problem with the face frame coming off.
> it will be fine.
>
>
At this point it really was more curiosity than worry. I'm always up for
learning something more. In any case, the gluing was done yesterday
evening. :)
On 3/25/13 1:31 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 11:50:15 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> For the OP's bookcase project, assuming he used dado joints for the
>> shelves, I see nothing that requires anything other than glue for
>> strength and holding.
>
> The cabinet sides and shelving are plywood. That being the case, he
> would be gluing hardwood face frames to plywood edging. Maybe I've
> been doing something wrong all these years, but I've *never* been able
> glue wood to plywood edging and been able to call it a strong
> connection.
>
> That's my reasoning for more than just glue.
>
I can't speak to your experience or process, but I glue thick, solid
edge banding/reinforcement to plywood all the time and get very strong
results. I routinely test small sections of the joint from where I've
cut a shelf to length and end up with a cut-off piece of shelf that is
1/4" to 1" wide. It is very difficult to break this joint and it rarely
fails at the glue line. I stopped using fasteners (screws or nails) for
this joint, several projects ago, as they proved to be unnecessary
overkill.
As to strong.... well, strong is relative, isn't it. In the case of the
OP's bookcase, the shelves look to be about 18" wide in my estimation.
Not only does he not need any reinforcement on those shelves, he could
probably store electric motors on them with no deflection. :-)
The face frames in the OP's bookshelf are just that, face frames. Face
frames in cabinetry *do* add rigidity and strength, but in modern
cabinetry are much more cosmetic/esthetic. I know of designs in which
the face frames of a cabinet is intended to provide critical strength to
the construction. This is certainly not the case in the OP's bookcase.
The OP's face frame, IMO, is purely cosmetic and could be attached with
18ga trim nails and it would be stronger than needed for the intended
purpose.
Gluing it on now means it would likely hold up in a circus elephant act.
:-)
Moving on to a broader discussion of solid edge support....
If I get to the point where I want the edge banding on a plywood shelf
to act as reinforcement against deflection, I will often cut a rabbet in
the solid wood banding to add strength, like this...
http://www.mikedrums.com/shelf_edge_top.jpg
http://www.mikedrums.com/shelf_edge_bot.jpg
This is generally for shelves that are very wide, like 3feet and more.
This adds a great deal of strength and gives the shelves a thinker front
profile, which I think looks better. So, it serves a dual purpose. I
would never think (any longer) to have any fasteners in this joint. But
I can assure you, even without the rabbet, I would use only glue.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 3/25/13 5:51 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Dave wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 11:50:15 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>> For the OP's bookcase project, assuming he used dado joints for the
>>> shelves, I see nothing that requires anything other than glue for
>>> strength and holding.
>>
>> The cabinet sides and shelving are plywood. That being the case, he
>> would be gluing hardwood face frames to plywood edging. Maybe I've
>> been doing something wrong all these years, but I've *never* been able
>> glue wood to plywood edging and been able to call it a strong
>> connection.
>>
>> That's my reasoning for more than just glue.
>
> Yeahbut he does have pocket screws holding the face frame on at both the top
> and the bottom rails.
>
I addressed this in my previous post, but from the OP's pictures, that
face frame could be more than adequately attached with trim nails. Those
shelves are very narrow and are glued/dadoed in as integral segments of
the case. IMO, they need no reinforcement at all. The frame certainly
will add some strength, especially if glued. But glue AND fasteners is
beyond overkill and simply a waste.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 3/25/2013 2:31 AM, Dave wrote:
>> I've*never* been able
>> glue wood to plywood edging and been able to call it a strong
>> connection.
>
> I'm curious, did any such joints actually come loose? Did you perhaps
> try to pry one apart and find that it was indeed weaker than you would
> like?
I don't know about him but I have *NEVER* had a glued joint fail. One of
mine, that is.
A while back I had to make a couple of glued up arched jambs. I drew my arc
on a piece of ply, put short pieces of 2x4 on edge at a few tangents. I
attached them by squirting some yellow glue on them and pressing in place
(no clamps). When I finished with the jig I reclaimed the plywood by
knocking off the 2x4 pieces with a hammer. Generally took more than one
hard blow and each one took plywood with it. NP, other side is still good.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
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In article <[email protected]>,
Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 06:51:25 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>>> That's my reasoning for more than just glue.
>>
>>Yeahbut he does have pocket screws holding the face frame on at both the top
>>and the bottom rails.
>
>Oh, I'm not saying that the face frame will move, just that my
>building preferences demand that most of what I build are comparable
>to a tank.
If you have kidds and especially if some of them are boys that is the wise
thing to do!
--
Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one.
Larry W. - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org
On 3/26/13 3:40 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 11:32:48 -0400, Greg Guarino <[email protected]>
>> On 3/25/2013 2:31 AM, Dave wrote:
>>> I've*never* been able
>>> glue wood to plywood edging and been able to call it a strong
>>> connection.
>>
>> I'm curious, did any such joints actually come loose? Did you perhaps
>> try to pry one apart and find that it was indeed weaker than you would
>> like?
>
> Initially, I glued a 1" thick strip of pine to a plywood veneered
> table edge that I built. It started coming off about a month after I
> built the table.
>
> I removed all the pine edging and then shaved about 1/4" off the
> plywood table edge to remove the remnants of soaked in hardened glue.
> Then I tried gluing again with a different brand of yellow carpenter's
> glue. Same problem happened again about two months later.
>
> All of this seems really strange because after the second try, I glued
> on a roll of veneer stripping and that's stayed on quite well ever
> since then.
>
> I can only surmise, that pressure (such as elbows) put downwards force
> on the table edge. Other than that, to be honest, I'm not sure where
> the problem lay. Maybe it was me and my technique, the type of glue I
> used or something else.
>
> That's my limited experience with it. I've never tried again.
>
I wish you had pictures so we could help you out better.
My first instinct is not tight enough clamping. Long shot, though, since
it doesn't take much pressure at all. As another poster stated, just
enough to close the gap.
My second is wet wood-- the pine, maybe. Silly question, but was either
product pressure treated in any way? Was the pine recycled from another
project and treated with any kind of finish or solvent?
(Please don't think I'm trying argue, here.)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 3/26/13 3:50 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 12:46:22 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> will add some strength, especially if glued. But glue AND fasteners is
>> beyond overkill and simply a waste.
>
> Possibly. Much of what we build is dependent on how we've built things
> through the years. For quite a few years, I used a blind nailer on my
> face frames, something I bought a long, long time ago from Lee Valley
> Tools.
>
> Essentially, it's a mini-plane that raises a thin shaving of wood. I'd
> then drill a slightly undersized hole in that space and drive in a
> countersunk finishing nail. The raised shaving would then be glued
> back down and clamped in place for about ten minutes. I produced an
> invisible method of joining my face frames.
>
> That method worked really well for a long time. Then I bought a Domino
> and just like the biscuit joiner, I haven't used the blind nailer
> since.
>
I love the blind nailing technique.
I don't know who invented it or when, but I think it's brilliant.
In the case of gluing *and* finish-nailing a face frame, I still contend
that the purpose of the nails is to act as clamps until the glue dries.
Norm used to mention this a lot on his show.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 3/25/2013 8:55 AM, woodchucker wrote:
> Just meant to show that cauls can be simple and also used for other things.
So enlighten me here. I've seen cauls (pictures of them anyway) that
have a very slight curve on the surface that will touch the work. Your
picture has a much sharper curve at each end than I would have expected,
and I can't tell if the middle is curved or not.
My understanding is that the curve on the business edge is to provide
clamping pressure in the middle even though the clamps are only applied
to the ends. What is the pronounced curvature near the ends of your
cauls for?
On 3/26/13 1:14 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 3/25/2013 8:55 AM, woodchucker wrote:
>> Just meant to show that cauls can be simple and also used for other
>> things.
>
> So enlighten me here. I've seen cauls (pictures of them anyway) that
> have a very slight curve on the surface that will touch the work. Your
> picture has a much sharper curve at each end than I would have expected,
> and I can't tell if the middle is curved or not.
>
> My understanding is that the curve on the business edge is to provide
> clamping pressure in the middle even though the clamps are only applied
> to the ends. What is the pronounced curvature near the ends of your
> cauls for?
I don't want to answer for him, but... well, here I go. :-)
You are right about long cauls having a slight curve on the clamping
side, and you're correct on the reason for that curve. It would nice if
there was a formula for that curve in relation to the length of the
caul. Maybe the same guy who did the on-line shelf "sagulator" will do
one for cauls.
However, in the case of woodchucker's photo, in that application, the
curve is acting like a truss (think steel arch bridge) that keeps the
caul straight and able to clamp that distance without bending.
The difference between the two applications is in the former, you want
the caul to bend until it's touching all the boards, applying
(hopefully) equal pressure. In the latter, you don't want it to bend so
it keeps touching all the board(s) allowing it to apply equal pressure.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 3/26/13 4:26 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 10:42:11 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> My second is wet wood-- the pine, maybe. Silly question, but was either
>> product pressure treated in any way? Was the pine recycled from another
>> project and treated with any kind of finish or solvent?
>
> Nothing pressure treated or finished in any way ~ at least before the
> glue dried and then I applied a Minwax stain and finish.
>
> It occurred to me that the glue I applied didn't adhere well to the
> layers of wood already glued together with the plywood. Or maybe,
> just really poor quality plywood. In any event, it was a number of
> years ago that I last worked on this and I haven't tried a similar
> construction since.
>
> Maybe it's time to try again, if only for information's sake.
>
I would encourage you to try it again if the need arises.
It really is an easy and effective way to make plywood stronger and look
a lot better.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 3/26/13 4:30 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 10:48:21 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> In the case of gluing *and* finish-nailing a face frame, I still contend
>> that the purpose of the nails is to act as clamps until the glue dries.
>> Norm used to mention this a lot on his show.
>
> I always thought, maybe mistakenly that the glue was just to add some
> extra holding power. And yes, I've read the articles stating that a
> properly glued wood connection is superior strength to the wood
> surrounding the joint.
>
Those articles are correct. And honestly, if the wood breaks before the
glue joint, isn't that stronger than it ever needs to be?
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
In article <[email protected]>,
woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
<<...snipped...>>
>Different cauls for different purposes.
Absolutely! It's your call! :)
--
There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat,
plausible, and wrong." (H L Mencken)
Larry W. - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org
Dave wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 10:42:11 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> My second is wet wood-- the pine, maybe. Silly question, but was
>> either product pressure treated in any way? Was the pine recycled
>> from another project and treated with any kind of finish or solvent?
>
> Nothing pressure treated or finished in any way ~ at least before the
> glue dried and then I applied a Minwax stain and finish.
>
> It occurred to me that the glue I applied didn't adhere well to the
> layers of wood already glued together with the plywood. Or maybe,
> just really poor quality plywood. In any event, it was a number of
> years ago that I last worked on this and I haven't tried a similar
> construction since.
>
> Maybe it's time to try again, if only for information's sake.
Given the usefulness of plywood and the ugliness of the edges, the ability
to glue solid wood to the edges should be cultivated. It isn't hard either;
all you need is...
1. smooth, square edges on both ply and wood
2. sufficient glue
3. sufficient pressure to hold them together until the glue dries.
Your previous failure may have been due to any or all of the above but I'm
thinking the most likely is insufficient glue. You don't want so much that
gobs squeeze out but enough to get a line of roughly pin head sized
globules.
All in all, much easier to apply than to trim flush.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net
On 3/27/13 6:30 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> Dave wrote:
>> On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 10:42:11 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>> My second is wet wood-- the pine, maybe. Silly question, but was
>>> either product pressure treated in any way? Was the pine
>>> recycled from another project and treated with any kind of finish
>>> or solvent?
>>
>> Nothing pressure treated or finished in any way ~ at least before
>> the glue dried and then I applied a Minwax stain and finish.
>>
>> It occurred to me that the glue I applied didn't adhere well to
>> the layers of wood already glued together with the plywood. Or
>> maybe, just really poor quality plywood. In any event, it was a
>> number of years ago that I last worked on this and I haven't tried
>> a similar construction since.
>>
>> Maybe it's time to try again, if only for information's sake.
>
> Given the usefulness of plywood and the ugliness of the edges, the
> ability to glue solid wood to the edges should be cultivated. It
> isn't hard either; all you need is...
>
> 1. smooth, square edges on both ply and wood
>
> 2. sufficient glue
>
> 3. sufficient pressure to hold them together until the glue dries.
>
> Your previous failure may have been due to any or all of the above
> but I'm thinking the most likely is insufficient glue. You don't
> want so much that gobs squeeze out but enough to get a line of
> roughly pin head sized globules.
>
> All in all, much easier to apply than to trim flush.
>
I'm not saying the OP did this, but it bears mentioning, because who
knows what might have happened or what he may have been told to do,
technique wise....
I was sort of mentoring a young man in the shop who was building a gift
for his wife. When we were in the process of gluing something, he asked
why I didn't let the glue "set-up" first before joining the parts.
Apparently, at some point in his life, he was building something with
someone else and from what I could surmise, they were using contact
cement. Well, he obviously had taken what he learned about contact
cement and falsely applied it to all gluing, in general.
It makes me wonder about the current condition of anything this young
man has ever glued before. :-)
There *are* techniques many of us have used where you apply glue to a
surfaces, especially porous ones like plywood, let it soak in a little,
then join together... or even add a bit more glue to the surface, and
join and clamp.
But that's not what I got from my experience with this gentleman. This
was more waiting so long that the glue was setting already. In any
case, those things always make me wonder what's "not' being said when
subjects like this come up.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 3/27/13 11:06 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> The biggest PITA of the whole process is making sure the wood is
> flush with the plywood after assembly, IMHO.
>
I gave up spending the time and effort to even try to make them flush
when gluing and setting up. Now I simply make install them a bit proud
on purpose and then trim them flush with a pattern bit in the router.
I have a jig for running them vertically. I can do that in less time
than it would take to try to glue them flush.... plus, I never get it
perfect and end up going to the router, anyway, so why not cut to the
chase.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 3/27/13 1:48 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "-MIKE-" wrote:
>
>> I gave up spending the time and effort to even try to make them
>> flush when gluing and setting up. Now I simply make install them a
>> bit proud on purpose and then trim them flush with a pattern bit in
>> the router.
> ------------------------------------------ Be carefull.
>
> I've used this technique and had a bit that cleaned up the wood but
> also left cutter marks on the plywood.
>
> After that ran test cuts with a different bit.
>
> No problems.
>
> Lew
>
You are correct, not all bits are the same. I prefer a to start with a
quality bit that is more likely to have an exact match between the
cutter and the bearing.
This isn't to say that a cheap bit will be off, but testing on some
scrap is recommended. We talking thou's here, so it's not something you
can see by looking at the edge of the bit or even using a straight edge
to check.
ALSO... if you're not perfectly square to the table, meaning there will
be a slight angle to the pattern bit, you can end up cutting into the
plywood surface. DAMHIKT. :-)
You can also guard against this by raising your bit *only* high enough
to cut the solid wood and not the plywood. It's tricky, but I've gotten
pretty good and fast at it.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
-MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/27/13 1:48 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> "-MIKE-" wrote:
>>
>>> I gave up spending the time and effort to even try to make them
>>> flush when gluing and setting up. Now I simply make install them a
>>> bit proud on purpose and then trim them flush with a pattern bit in
>>> the router.
>> ------------------------------------------ Be carefull.
>>
>> I've used this technique and had a bit that cleaned up the wood but
>> also left cutter marks on the plywood.
>>
>> After that ran test cuts with a different bit.
>>
>> No problems.
>>
>> Lew
>>
>
> You are correct, not all bits are the same. I prefer a to start with
> a quality bit that is more likely to have an exact match between the
> cutter and the bearing.
>
> This isn't to say that a cheap bit will be off, but testing on some
> scrap is recommended. We talking thou's here, so it's not something
> you can see by looking at the edge of the bit or even using a
> straight edge to check.
>
> ALSO... if you're not perfectly square to the table, meaning there
> will be a slight angle to the pattern bit, you can end up cutting
> into the plywood surface. DAMHIKT. :-)
>
> You can also guard against this by raising your bit *only* high enough
> to cut the solid wood and not the plywood. It's tricky, but I've
> gotten pretty good and fast at it.
For those less experienced, one can also leave a sliver of wood which is
then easily removed with a chisel. Or file.
It can also be done other ways; by hand, eg. I've also done it with planer
blades in a molding head on a radial arm saw.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
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On 3/27/2013 9:42 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> I added a few more pics to show how much I can bend these cauls.
> I can get them flat, but with different clamps . Not enough travel with
> those.
>
> http://imgur.com/a/wLzRs#0
>
> A woodworker can never have too many clamps, or enough clamp helpers.
Thanks for the added pictures. That was very helpful of you.
How did you determine the curvature for the long cauls, trial and error?
Cauls like that could have simplified my bookcase glue-up, and I have 3
more to do. I also might not have bought 8 of The World's Cheapest Bar
Clamps (tm). They were of some use - I put them on last to fill in
between other clamps - but I have half a mind to cut six inches off
them. They are 24" long, but it's hard to imagine them being of any use
at that length. They bowed quite "gracefully" at the 13" or so I had
them open.
I like your corner cauls too, but I wonder if a curve on the outside
corner might be an improvement over the "flat". With anything other than
a square box, the clamp will only contact one corner of your cauls
anyway. With a slight curve, the clamp could make the same amount of
contact, but more "centered" (or so it seems to my untutored eye).
On Thu, 28 Mar 2013 10:20:34 -0400, Greg Guarino wrote:
> How did you determine the curvature for the long cauls, trial and error?
I can tell you what I did. I set a hand plane to take off a fairly thin
shaving, but not a see-through. Leaving about 10% of the middle of the
caul flat, I took one or two passes out to each end, then moved out about
1/3 of the planed distance and did it again. A final pass or two over
the last 1/3 and a couple of short swipes to round the transitions and I
was done.
--
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and
carrying a cross.
On 3/28/2013 7:06 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> As far as the curve, it's trial and error, you want the pressure to keep
> from picking up in the middle.
I just remembered something. I was putting an edge around a desktop a
couple of years ago, back before I had all of my current woodworking
savvy. :) The desktop is pretty large; 72" by 30" if memory serves. I
had not yet discovered pocket screws (along with many other useful
techniques). I decided to use glue, dowels and clamps.
I had only two clamps long enough for the long dimension. Adding to the
problem, the piece of oak 1x2 I used for one end piece was bowed a bit.
When I applied the two clamps I still had a small gap in the middle. I
decided to take another piece of 1x2 oak and put it in as a "caul", a
word and concept I had not yet heard of.
I have a reasonably intuitive grasp of physics, but somehow it didn't
occur to me to put the "caul" on edge for greater rigidity. Or to use
something thicker. In the heat of the (glue drying) moment, I grabbed
for the first thing at hand.
The thin pseudo-caul helped a little, but there still wasn't enough
pressure in the middle. I grabbed a small piece of very thin plywood,
maybe 3/16", and inserted it between my "caul" and the middle section of
the edging. Then I cranked down the clamps tight, bending the "caul".
That did it.
I didn't occur to me until now that I had in effect made a crude
"stepped" version of your curved caul; a piece that protruded more in
the middle than at the ends.
I have since been advised that there were any number of better and
easier ways to accomplish the whole task, but it's funny that I ended up
reinventing the wheel to solve a problem in a time-sensitive moment.
On 3/23/2013 11:19 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely people
> here will argue about it. This should be interesting.
...
> Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would
> two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units
> are 21" wide.
...
None. Shoot some brads to "hold it in place while the glue dries..."
<GDR>
--
Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 3/28/2013 7:06 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>> As far as the curve, it's trial and error, you want the pressure to
>> keep from picking up in the middle.
>
> I just remembered something. I was putting an edge around a desktop a
> couple of years ago, back before I had all of my current woodworking
> savvy. :) The desktop is pretty large; 72" by 30" if memory serves. I
> had not yet discovered pocket screws (along with many other useful
> techniques). I decided to use glue, dowels and clamps.
>
> I had only two clamps long enough for the long dimension.
With a pipe coupling and a piece of threaded pipe you can make your pipe
clamps any length you want.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net
On 3/29/2013 1:33 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> Greg Guarino wrote:
>> On 3/28/2013 7:06 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>> As far as the curve, it's trial and error, you want the pressure to
>>> keep from picking up in the middle.
>>
>> I just remembered something. I was putting an edge around a desktop a
>> couple of years ago, back before I had all of my current woodworking
>> savvy. :) The desktop is pretty large; 72" by 30" if memory serves. I
>> had not yet discovered pocket screws (along with many other useful
>> techniques). I decided to use glue, dowels and clamps.
>>
>> I had only two clamps long enough for the long dimension.
>
> With a pipe coupling and a piece of threaded pipe you can make your pipe
> clamps any length you want.
>
Yup. Some of the ones I used were of exactly that sort. And I might have
gone out for another length of pipe and a coupler, had I not already
applied the glue.
On 3/31/13 3:06 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>>> The biggest PITA of the whole process is making sure the wood is
>>> flush with the plywood after assembly, IMHO.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> "-MIKE-" wrote:
>
>> I gave up spending the time and effort to even try to make them
>> flush
>> when gluing and setting up. Now I simply make install them a bit
>> proud
>> on purpose and then trim them flush with a pattern bit in the
>> router.
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> The "Tongue and Groove" technique minimizes this problem.
>
> Start by measuring the thickness of the plywood using a dial caliper.
>
> Plane the wood equal to the thickness of the plywood + 0.020".
>
> Center cut the "tongue" and "groove" cuts on the respective parts.
>
> Glue the assembly together.
>
> The result will be a joint that leaves the solid wood 0,010" proud
> on both top and bottom surfaces, well within the scope of a scraper
> for final finish.
>
> The scraper can easily be positioned to clear the plywood surface.
>
> Just another way to skin a cat,
>
> Lew
>
It is another way and I realize the strength of that joint. But by the
time I measure and cut the tongue and grooves with the set-up involved,
I can have them glued on and trimmed with the flush bit. (glue drying
time being subtracted from both equations.)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 11:50:15 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>For the OP's bookcase project, assuming he used dado joints for the
>shelves, I see nothing that requires anything other than glue for
>strength and holding.
The cabinet sides and shelving are plywood. That being the case, he
would be gluing hardwood face frames to plywood edging. Maybe I've
been doing something wrong all these years, but I've *never* been able
glue wood to plywood edging and been able to call it a strong
connection.
That's my reasoning for more than just glue.
On 3/28/2013 10:20 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 3/27/2013 9:42 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>> I added a few more pics to show how much I can bend these cauls.
>> I can get them flat, but with different clamps . Not enough travel with
>> those.
>>
>> http://imgur.com/a/wLzRs#0
>>
>> A woodworker can never have too many clamps, or enough clamp helpers.
>
> Thanks for the added pictures. That was very helpful of you.
>
> How did you determine the curvature for the long cauls, trial and error?
> Cauls like that could have simplified my bookcase glue-up, and I have 3
> more to do. I also might not have bought 8 of The World's Cheapest Bar
> Clamps (tm). They were of some use - I put them on last to fill in
> between other clamps - but I have half a mind to cut six inches off
> them. They are 24" long, but it's hard to imagine them being of any use
> at that length. They bowed quite "gracefully" at the 13" or so I had
> them open.
>
> I like your corner cauls too, but I wonder if a curve on the outside
> corner might be an improvement over the "flat". With anything other than
> a square box, the clamp will only contact one corner of your cauls
> anyway. With a slight curve, the clamp could make the same amount of
> contact, but more "centered" (or so it seems to my untutored eye).
Yep you are right a curve would improve it.
I was thinking the same thing.
They are easy to make, 2x4's make excellent corners.
As far as the curve, it's trial and error, you want the pressure to keep
from picking up in the middle.
When you have too much flat, you will see the middle rise and not offer
pressure. Then you have to think, did I tighten the clamps too much, or
are the cauls just defective. Me I'd rather put more pressure on, and
have full contact in the contact area. Then if I Put less pressure on, I
have a smaller contact area (edges recede). But I never want to have
alot of pressure and a void in the middle.... just play with it.
it's cheap wood and you can use them for something else if they don't
come out right.
--
Jeff
On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 13:49:27 -0400, "dadiOH" <[email protected]>
>I don't know about him but I have *NEVER* had a glued joint fail. One of
>mine, that is.
I've glued hardwood to hardwood, pine to pine and a combination of
both and they've stood up well. It's just the gluing of solid wood to
plywood edging that I've had this problem. Never could figure out why.