Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
impacts of debris.
You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
necessary.
How should this house be built and what should it have?
--
|||||||||||||||| Nehmo Sergheyev ||||||||||||||||
"Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
> been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
> damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>
> You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
> wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
> before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
> impacts of debris.
>
> You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>
> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
> And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
> necessary.
>
> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
> --
> |||||||||||||||| Nehmo Sergheyev ||||||||||||||||
>
>
100% Hurricane Proof homes here.
www.winnebagoind.com
Just add a good weather-radio and make sure the tank is always full.
AMUN
On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 18:08:19 -0400, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>"Notan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> Underground would prevent *all* wind damage, but the house
>> would have to be 110% waterproof/watertight, and have some
>> type of above-ground ventilation system.
>
>House built into the side of a mountain that is above sea level. ~
>preferably in a lesser earthquake zone.
Here's a turn-key design, courtesy of Uncle Sam:
https://www.cheyennemountain.af.mil/thedesign.htm
Lee
snip>
> Would one of those transparent plastic tent/ water purifiers that they say
> to use if you're adrift at sea work on nasty flood waters? Or is it just
> for getting the salt out of sea water? Anyoone know?
>
They work by evaporating water, which is volatile, and then condensing it on
the cool surface. Depends on the other contents, like salt, not being
volatile. For the nasty mix along the gulf coast, part of the problem is
petroleum components, which are also volatile. So it might actually produce
a product water with a higher concentration of some of the impurities.
Depends on vapor pressure, condensation temperature, etc.
Steve
"Upscale" wrote in message
> > How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
> Considering that no type of house is ever going to be absolutely safe,
The basic design is already at least a few thousand years old, on more than
one continent.
... pyramid.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05
"Duane Bozarth"> wrote
> Precisely my point...to do what HMFIC wants in general is a very
> difficult and expensive task. You can be prepared for ordinary events
> pretty well and make things a lot easier on yourself, but in a
> catastrophic situation things are likely to get out of hand for almost
> everybody in the affected area.
I design large scale custom homes on the barrier islands off the coast of SW
Florida.
These homes are inherently expensive for several reasons, not just because
of the so called *personal greed* of the owners.
I've heard that upwards of 60% of the residents of NOLA were at the poverty
level or lower.
The buildings that housed these people probably won't be rebuilt.
I've also heard that most of those folks in that 60% have already been
relocated, some have jobs and are moving on with their lives, probably
aren't concerned with moving back to NOLA.
So what's left?
The infrastructure, businesses and residences.
Here, in the 130mph wind zone we address the issue 2 ways.
Either the land under the structure must place the finished floor at 10.0'
above sea level, which is what is done here on the mainland.
Or the home has got to be elevated on driven of jetted pilings so the the
finished floor is at least 10.0' above sea level.
My own home, built 3 years ago on the mainland, required more than 60 truck
loads of fill dirt to get the concrete slab up to the requirement, it also
required an additional 15 loads to do the finish grading at the end.
Each year the height requirement seems to increase, the new home across the
street from me is at least 1-1/2' higher than mine.
Its never ending around here.
In 20 years the only thing that will be allowed to be built around here will
be poured in place solid concrete domes anchored to the mantle itself with
precast 80' pilings 4' on center both ways. ;-(
"Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
> been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
> damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>
> You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
> wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
> before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
> impacts of debris.
>
> You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>
> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
> And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
> necessary.
>
> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
> --
> |||||||||||||||| Nehmo Sergheyev ||||||||||||||||
>
>
It would be far cheaper to buy a house in some distant locale. At least,
you could use for some purpose all the time.
Jim
On 9-Sep-2005, "Don" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 2x8 jambs & head and 4"x1/4" tapcons 6" o/c staggered.
> steel clad or solid core outswing door.
> triple nickel 40 threshhold.
> that'll stop em in their tracks.
Local Hell's Angel hangout was raided - the cops used a backhoe
to open the door. The HA rebuilt with a concrete wall in front
to the door so they couldn't use a backhoe again.
Mike
Why have a foundation?
"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>A boat on a foundation. It would break away and float in the event that
>the
> water got too high. Or one on pilings high enough to withstand Katrina.
> "Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
>> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
>> been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
>> damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>>
>> You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
>> wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
>> before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
>> impacts of debris.
>>
>> You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>>
>> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
>> And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
>> necessary.
>>
>> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>>
>> --
>> |||||||||||||||| Nehmo Sergheyev ||||||||||||||||
>>
>>
>
>
In article <[email protected]>, Adam Weiss
<[email protected]> wrote:
> If you're looking to build a house that can not only withstand a
> hurricane but can also allow you to live relatively comfortably while
> the power and water is still out, this sort of adaptive reuse of human
> waste makes alot of sense.
As long as you understand the limitations.
Look into the NASA research on toilets related to manned flight to Mars.
--
Go read this. Now.
<http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000129.html>
Nehmo wrote:
> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
> been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
> damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>
> You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
> wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
> before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
> impacts of debris.
>
> You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>
> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
> And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
> necessary.
>
> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
> --
> |||||||||||||||| Nehmo Sergheyev ||||||||||||||||
For one, an address farther inland.
Nehmo wrote:
> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
> been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
> damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>
> You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
> wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
> before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
> impacts of debris.
>
> You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>
> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
> And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
> necessary.
>
> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
> --
> |||||||||||||||| Nehmo Sergheyev ||||||||||||||||
Dr. Evil's lair with attached Big Boy escape rocket?
This should be a good discussion.
My suggestions are
1. A moat made up of Weber grill burners. Anyone trys to get accross,
you instantly BBQ there ass.
2. Rifle tower, lots of amunition. (5 bullets for each member of
surrounding population)
3. two of each animal to restart population. (preferably opposite
gender).
4. Tele-porter to escape. If you go with a tunnel, it would be
flooded. If you go jet pack, the guy across in his castle will snipe
you from his rifle tower. (Check e-bay for a cheap teleporter.)
5. Seperate ecosystem/ oxygen supply - As ecoli and other diseases
break out, you don't want to be breathing this stuff.
I like the three little pigs idea.
Make sure you don't talk to the first two.
Adam Weiss wrote:
>
>
> 2: The dutch have designed well for slow rising water. They've built
> houses that float. Not house boats, mind you. These homes have
> floating concrete foundations that will rise and fall with rising water
> levels. (I knew that thesis I heard of where a stoner physics student
> designd and floated a concrete boat and got credit for it would have
> some use somewhere, but I digress).
>
The English were using concrete boats in 1910 or so, and a Frenchman
patented a wire reinforced concrete boat in 1847. It wasn't exactly a
stoner physic student's brainstorm.
Adam Weiss wrote:
> Charlie Self wrote:
> > Adam Weiss wrote:
> >
> >
> >>2: The dutch have designed well for slow rising water. They've built
> >>houses that float. Not house boats, mind you. These homes have
> >>floating concrete foundations that will rise and fall with rising water
> >>levels. (I knew that thesis I heard of where a stoner physics student
> >>designd and floated a concrete boat and got credit for it would have
> >>some use somewhere, but I digress).
> >>
> >
> >
> > The English were using concrete boats in 1910 or so, and a Frenchman
> > patented a wire reinforced concrete boat in 1847. It wasn't exactly a
> > stoner physic student's brainstorm.
> >
>
> I didn't know that.
>
> But here it is, all online and easily accessed for those too lazy to do
> real research in a library:
>
> http://www.concreteships.org/history/
>
>
> Very interesting and thanks.
You're welcome. One of the benefits of reading Popular Mechanics as a
kid 50 years ago.
A forgotten tecnique for lumber framing and putting on plywood and
waferboard is to toe nail. Nails driven straight into end grain don't
hold diddly. When you angle all stud wall nails, the holding power is
much greater. The same with sheeting. If all of the nails are driven in
at the same angle, you can knock it out with your hands, and the nails
will still be in the sheet. When the nails are driven in at opposing
angles, the only way to get a sheet back off is to destroy the sheet
because the nails will pull through the sheet, and not come off with
it.
robo hippy
You know because my girlfirend lives in Monroe, LA she deserves nothing
less than a 15,000 square foor mansion. See my new post asking about
the Richardsonian Romanesque style house since my dream is to build her
(&me) a huge tornado proof mansion if I ever become rich enough. But
all of your ideas are good though.
Don wrote:
> "Cherokee-Ltd"> wrote
> > "The length of the Ark shall be 300 cubits, the breadth of it 50 cubits,
> > and the height of it 30 cubits. A window shall thou make to the Ark and in
> > a cubit shalt thou finish it above." - God
>
> Tell god to transfer all that stuff into standard architectural dimensions,
> please.
> Thanks, Mgt.
Metric?
Upscale wrote:
> "Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
> A $10,000,000 budget.
This is already provided, Joe Taxpayer is footing the bill.
A boat on a foundation. It would break away and float in the event that the
water got too high. Or one on pilings high enough to withstand Katrina.
"Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
> been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
> damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>
> You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
> wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
> before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
> impacts of debris.
>
> You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>
> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
> And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
> necessary.
>
> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
> --
> |||||||||||||||| Nehmo Sergheyev ||||||||||||||||
>
>
"Notan" <[email protected]> wrote
> but it's only lately that I've begun
> to see you as nothing more than a non-religious bible thumper.
Well, you're wrong Larry and its only been lately that you've been acting
like a dumbass.
Perhaps I have been slack in my estimatation of you.
Nehmo wrote:
> How should this house be built and what should it have?
There's a big clue whenever you see news shots of the flooded city.
What structures are still standing, almost completely untouched?
The big apartment buildings.
Just build multistory buildings, and put all essential building
utilities on the second floor or higher. Let the bottom floor have only
easily repaired interiors and utilities. Connect the second floors
of the buildings using a system of walkways just like in Minneapolis.
You could even build the walkways open air, using the wrought iron
balcony style popular for Mardi Gras in New Orleans. This would make
the city a fun place to visit.
Essentially this is the "house on stilts" idea but on a big enough scale
you could house a population of 500,000 in a densely populated area.
For car storage some buildings would use the lower 3 or 4 stories for
car parks. Again, visit Minneapolis to see this sort of structure.
You'd need fewer cars since this would be a densely populated area with
lots of people able to walk to work.
This is the future.
Of course, this doesn't fit in with the real estate agent / developer
scenaria where every American is isolated on his own lot with 2 acres of
grass to mow every weekend. That's going to prove economically
non-viable when fuel prices rise, anyway.
Max
On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 20:54:44 GMT
Matt Whiting <[email protected]> wrote:
> Nehmo wrote:
> > Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
> > sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
> > been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
> > damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
> >
> > You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
> > wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
> > before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
> > impacts of debris.
> >
> > You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
> >
> > The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
> > And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
> > necessary.
> >
> > How should this house be built and what should it have?
> >
>
> I'd build it using reinforced concrete with metal shutters to close over
> the windows, it's own 30 day water supply and enough fuel to power a
> backup generator for that same amount of time, and I'd build it on
> columns at least 20' tall above the ground, or whatever the storm surge
> level from a cat 5 storm is expected to be in that area.
>
> Matt
This sounds possible though, not out of the question.
-
On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 16:11:19 -0400
"Chris" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>, "Chris" <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Asking the "Three Little Pigs" comes to mind. That is of course if they
> >> are still around
> >
> > Didn't one of them go to market?
>
> Yes, but he was looting, so it was ok.
>
>
So let's do a FULL recap of this house. I am going to save this for future use and reference.
Let's fill in the blanks and develope this and have it stand the test of back-and-forth until we ALL agree on the resultant.
Let's also be realistic, but don't limit yourself. Let's be practical but without any sacrifice on anything for the sake of safety & security most importantly.
HURRICANE-HOUSE
--------------------
FUTURE BUILDING SITE: N.O.
FOUNDATION SYSTEM: ?
FLOOR SYSTEM: ?
WALL SYSTEM: ?
ROOF SYSTEM: ?
DOORS & WINDOWS: ?
MOISTURE & THERMAL PROTECTION: ?
FORCE PROTECTION: ?
MECHANICAL SYSTEMS: ?
ELECTRICAL SYSTEMS: ?
On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 15:28:38 -0600
Notan <[email protected]> wrote:
> Matt Whiting wrote:
> >
> > Nehmo wrote:
> > > Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
> > > sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
> > > been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
> > > damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
> > >
> > > You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
> > > wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
> > > before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
> > > impacts of debris.
> > >
> > > You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
> > >
> > > The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
> > > And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
> > > necessary.
> > >
> > > How should this house be built and what should it have?
> > >
> >
> > I'd build it using reinforced concrete with metal shutters to close over
> > the windows, it's own 30 day water supply and enough fuel to power a
> > backup generator for that same amount of time, and I'd build it on
> > columns at least 20' tall above the ground, or whatever the storm surge
> > level from a cat 5 storm is expected to be in that area.
>
> And, while building it off the ground, to get out of harm's way of the water,
> aren't you exposing it to more potential wind damage?
>
> Notan
So let's do a FULL recap of this house. I am going to save this for future use and reference.
Let's fill in the blanks and develope this and have it stand the test of back-and-forth until we ALL agree on the resultant.
Let's also be realistic, but don't limit yourself. Let's be practical but without any sacrifice on anything for the sake of safety & security most importantly.
HURRICANE-HOUSE
--------------------
FUTURE BUILDING SITE: N.O.
FOUNDATION SYSTEM: ?
FLOOR SYSTEM: ?
WALL SYSTEM: ?
ROOF SYSTEM: ?
DOORS & WINDOWS: ?
MOISTURE & THERMAL PROTECTION: ?
FORCE PROTECTION: ?
MECHANICAL SYSTEMS: ?
ELECTRICAL SYSTEMS: ?
Dr. Hardcrab wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>gruhn wrote:
>>
>>>>I nominate this thread as the most retarded ever in the history of
>>>>these groups.
>>>
>>>Second nomination of "Prize winner?" as most retarded thread ever.
>>>
>>I nominate you both as the most retarded posters to a thread ever.
>>
>
> I know you are butt what am I????
>
> ;-]
>
>
Nah. Robin's butt. Just ask Ms Hartl and Mr Lee.
j4
>
>As the cop was armed, and was approaching the cameraman with a threatening
>tone, he deserved to be shot right in the face.
>Wouldn't his wife and kids like that?
>
>Why would a grown man (the cop) act that way?
>
The excuse is that the presence of a camera encourages people play TO
the camera, and thus makes them harder to control than otherwise.
The REASON is because cops are control freaks.
"Adam Weiss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> But really, your idea of putting essential building utilities on the above
> the water line in floods is one I had before (re: thread titled "why don't
> they" on alt.architecture.
>
> I suggested it for certain buildings that are of importance during
> catastrophes - hospitals in particular.
In certain flood prone areas it is already requird by code. Has been for a
number of years in some places. It is js ut common sense if you are prone
to flooding either on the coast or the banks of a river. Houses in Florida
and the New Jersey shore have been rasied on pilings for the same reason.
>
> But doing it for every apartment building? Very excessive. Unless the
> people who choose to live in apartment buildings want it and the people
> leasing apartments can sell it.
Every building? Yes, but for many it makes a lot of sense. In some areas
there are even basement apartments that are about six feet below grade.
Makes for some interesting things in the bathtub when plumbing problems
happen.
>
>>
>> You could even build the walkways open air, using the wrought iron
>> balcony style popular for Mardi Gras in New Orleans. This would make the
>> city a fun place to visit.
Las Vegas is using elevated walkways to avoid traffic. It can easily be used
in other areas too. Well, maybe not always easily, but it is not a bad
idea.
>
> Car storage?
>
> People use their cars.
Maybe. In New York it is common to leave a car parked or "stored" for weeks
at a time. Parking, storeage, just variations on termonology.
We don't get much Cat 5's up here!!!!
"Duane Bozarth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Don wrote:
> >
> > "HMFIC-1369"> wrote
> > > Bottom line is 30 days! Katrina shows areas still under flood waters,
well
> > > after a week. The object is NOT rescue! I maintain 6 months food and
water
> > > in my food cellar.
> >
> > How much space does 6 months worth of food and water occupy?
>
> More significantly, how does one prevent the flooding of the cellar or
> the complete destruction of the entire dwelling given a Cat 5 or Fujita
> 5 storm?
On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 19:14:27 GMT, "Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
>sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
>been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
>damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>
>You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
>wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
>before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
>impacts of debris.
>
>You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>
You had a shot up until the "unwanted government interference". There is
nothing that can be built to stand up or resist that.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 22:10:29 GMT, "Jim-Poncin"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Notan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> Matt Whiting wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Nehmo wrote:
>>>> > Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
>>>> > sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water
>>>> > has
>>>> > been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
>>>> > damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>>>> >
>>>> > You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
>>>> > wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had
>>>> > subsided
>>>> > before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and
>>>> > the
>>>> > impacts of debris.
>>>> >
>>>> > You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>>>> >
>>>> > The house would have independent utilities, communication, and
>>>> > supplies.
>>>> > And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape
>>>> > if
>>>> > necessary.
>>>> >
>>>> > How should this house be built and what should it have?
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> I'd build it using reinforced concrete with metal shutters to close
>>>> over
>>>> the windows, it's own 30 day water supply and enough fuel to power a
>>>> backup generator for that same amount of time, and I'd build it on
>>>> columns at least 20' tall above the ground, or whatever the storm surge
>>>> level from a cat 5 storm is expected to be in that area.
>>>
>>> And, while building it off the ground, to get out of harm's way of the
>>> water,
>>> aren't you exposing it to more potential wind damage?
>>
>>Yes, and if subjected to heavy wave action it would probably fail. Cat 3
>>Katrina tore up a lot of heavy duty structures. But even before those
>>considerations it would cost way too much and would not pass residential
>>codes because it would be an eyesore.
>> A realistic house would have to be one at ground level that could
>>survive immersion. I think that means a heavy stone/cement igloo shaped
>>structure.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> iisn't new orleans on a sand bar? make it too heavy and it will just
> sink when the ground gets saturated. a bunch of buildings did that on
> sand fill in san francisco during one of the big earthquakes.
No, it lies on delta muds and silts that slowly de-water, compact and
subside. There are many tall masonry buildings in downtown N.O. that are on
the same foundation.
Nehmo wrote:
> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
> been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
> damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>
> You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
> wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
> before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
> impacts of debris.
>
> You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>
> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
> And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
> necessary.
>
> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
I was just wondering about how to reinforce the front door so the cops
couldn't kick it open -- even with that little battering ram they use,
unless they want to keep pounding on it for 20 minutes. I think the
door frame and the latch are probably more important than the actual
door. Of course, it would have to have a chain so you could crack it
open to talk to people on the other side if you wanted to. 5/16" safety
chain? If they tried to kick it in while the door was cracked, it would
bounce shut (breaking someone's foot, hopefully) and you could latch the
bolt if you were fast.
An antique-looking 4 inch cannon in the front room would make a great
conversation piece. Hopefully no one would ever have to find out that
it was real and loaded with grapeshot.
Wood-frame construction (except for the heavy steel door frames) with
lots of metal ties to hold the roof joists to the wall plates, and steel
siding.
No basement, obviously.
Heavy full-sized shutters to cover the windows.
Small generator and transfer switch.
Best regards,
Bob
[email protected] wrote:
>
> >> Just went looking for it and couldn't find it, but, a couple weeks ago my
> >> brother sent me a link for a chainsaw that cuts concrete.
> >> It might not do much regarding Hoover, but I'd still like to have one in my
> >> stable.
> >
> >While I've never heard of a concrete chainsaw, they *do* make portable
> >concrete circular saws.
> >
> >Notan
>
> http://www.jimslimstools.com/Cat_ICS_Concrete_Chainsaw.aspx
OK, *now* I've heard of a concrete chainsaw!
Notan
Notan wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>>>>Just went looking for it and couldn't find it, but, a couple weeks ago my
>>>>brother sent me a link for a chainsaw that cuts concrete.
>>>>It might not do much regarding Hoover, but I'd still like to have one in my
>>>>stable.
>>>
>>>While I've never heard of a concrete chainsaw, they *do* make portable
>>>concrete circular saws.
>>>
>>>Notan
>>
>>http://www.jimslimstools.com/Cat_ICS_Concrete_Chainsaw.aspx
>
>
> OK, *now* I've heard of a concrete chainsaw!
It didn't look to be made of concrete to me.
Matt
Guess I should have threaded ahead.....
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>>> Just went looking for it and couldn't find it, but, a couple weeks ago
>>> my
>>> brother sent me a link for a chainsaw that cuts concrete.
>>> It might not do much regarding Hoover, but I'd still like to have one in
>>> my
>>> stable.
>>
>>While I've never heard of a concrete chainsaw, they *do* make portable
>>concrete circular saws.
>>
>>Notan
>
>
> http://www.jimslimstools.com/Cat_ICS_Concrete_Chainsaw.aspx
>> Just went looking for it and couldn't find it, but, a couple weeks ago my
>> brother sent me a link for a chainsaw that cuts concrete.
>> It might not do much regarding Hoover, but I'd still like to have one in my
>> stable.
>
>While I've never heard of a concrete chainsaw, they *do* make portable
>concrete circular saws.
>
>Notan
http://www.jimslimstools.com/Cat_ICS_Concrete_Chainsaw.aspx
Heavy stone, "igloo" shape, surrounded by heavy duty wall to take up wind,
flying object, and wave impacts.
"Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
> been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
> damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>
> You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
> wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
> before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
> impacts of debris.
>
> You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>
> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
> And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
> necessary.
>
> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
> --
> |||||||||||||||| Nehmo Sergheyev ||||||||||||||||
>
>
Matt Whiting wrote:
>
> Nehmo wrote:
> > Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
> > sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
> > been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
> > damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
> >
> > You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
> > wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
> > before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
> > impacts of debris.
> >
> > You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
> >
> > The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
> > And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
> > necessary.
> >
> > How should this house be built and what should it have?
> >
>
> I'd build it using reinforced concrete with metal shutters to close over
> the windows, it's own 30 day water supply and enough fuel to power a
> backup generator for that same amount of time, and I'd build it on
> columns at least 20' tall above the ground, or whatever the storm surge
> level from a cat 5 storm is expected to be in that area.
And, while building it off the ground, to get out of harm's way of the water,
aren't you exposing it to more potential wind damage?
Notan
CWatters wrote:
>
> "Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
> Underground?
That thought, too, crossed my mind.
Underground would prevent *all* wind damage, but the house
would have to be 110% waterproof/watertight, and have some
type of above-ground ventilation system.
Notan
Chris wrote:
>
> "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Notan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> >> Underground would prevent *all* wind damage, but the house
> >> would have to be 110% waterproof/watertight, and have some
> >> type of above-ground ventilation system.
> >
> > House built into the side of a mountain that is above sea level. ~
> > preferably in a lesser earthquake zone.
> >
> >
>
> Versus the mountains that are below sea-level????????????????????
While the wording *is* a bit ambiguous, I think he probably meant,
not at the bottom of a mountain, whose base is at sea level. <g>
Notan
Nehmo wrote:
> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
> been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
> damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>
> You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
> wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
> before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
> impacts of debris.
>
> You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>
> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
> And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
> necessary.
>
> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
Some places to start:
1: The buildings at the top of Mount Washington are a good example to
follow for wind resistance. They withstood a storm in which gusts
topped 230mph, the highest winds ever recorded. Worth a look if you
want a house that'll handle any winds Mother Nature might blow its way.
2: The dutch have designed well for slow rising water. They've built
houses that float. Not house boats, mind you. These homes have
floating concrete foundations that will rise and fall with rising water
levels. (I knew that thesis I heard of where a stoner physics student
designd and floated a concrete boat and got credit for it would have
some use somewhere, but I digress).
An idea I had was a house with a two story garage and an amphibian car
in it. Living area on the second floor. When slow rising water comes,
the car/boat rises up, and I can go out of my house like I normally
would, climb into my car/boat, and drive off.
3: Storm surge is already designed for in many parts of the Gulf Coast.
Houses are up on stilts, as many of our Florida contingent here on
alt.architecture can explain.
4: As for unwanted government and looter home invasion, the best
defense is you. Your eyes and ears, a video camera, and a gun. If you
design your home to physically withstand the worst storms, it logically
follows that you should be able to stay there safely during the worst
storms, and the best defense against looters is a physical presence and
a gun; the best defense against government is a video camera.
A house that's a veritable fortress against intruders wouldn't be
pleasant to live during the 99.9% of the time when there's not a
hurricane pummelling it or looters attacking it. That's my view anyway.
5: Another thing to think about is plumbing. Namely, when the power
goes out, the water will as well. I've seen and smelled a toilet that's
been full and not flushed for 2 weeks straight; you -do not- want that
in your house.
Some auxiliary toilet, an out house even, that doesn't rely on running
water is certainly in-order for a hurricane proof house.
Charlie Self wrote:
> Adam Weiss wrote:
>
>
>>2: The dutch have designed well for slow rising water. They've built
>>houses that float. Not house boats, mind you. These homes have
>>floating concrete foundations that will rise and fall with rising water
>>levels. (I knew that thesis I heard of where a stoner physics student
>>designd and floated a concrete boat and got credit for it would have
>>some use somewhere, but I digress).
>>
>
>
> The English were using concrete boats in 1910 or so, and a Frenchman
> patented a wire reinforced concrete boat in 1847. It wasn't exactly a
> stoner physic student's brainstorm.
>
I didn't know that.
But here it is, all online and easily accessed for those too lazy to do
real research in a library:
http://www.concreteships.org/history/
Very interesting and thanks.
[email protected] wrote:
> Nehmo wrote:
>
>> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
>
> There's a big clue whenever you see news shots of the flooded city. What
> structures are still standing, almost completely untouched?
>
> The big apartment buildings.
And big office buildings.
And big hospitals.
And big hotels.
And big police stations are also all standing.
>
> Just build multistory buildings, and put all essential building
> utilities on the second floor or higher. Let the bottom floor have only
> easily repaired interiors and utilities. Connect the second floors
> of the buildings using a system of walkways just like in Minneapolis.
1970s style megastructures. Yeehah!
But really, your idea of putting essential building utilities on the
above the water line in floods is one I had before (re: thread titled
"why don't they" on alt.architecture.
I suggested it for certain buildings that are of importance during
catastrophes - hospitals in particular. They are often full of people
who are in various states of disability who would have difficulty
evacuating or may not survive evacuation. Furthermore, hospitals should
be up and running during natural disasters and other catastrophes in
order to be used by those suffering injury during the natural disaster.
In retrospect, it would be a good idea, though not as crucial, for fire
stations and police stations to have the same hurricane resistance and
auxiliary power systems as the hospitals. That way first responders can
better do their jobs.
But doing it for every apartment building? Very excessive. Unless the
people who choose to live in apartment buildings want it and the people
leasing apartments can sell it.
>
> You could even build the walkways open air, using the wrought iron
> balcony style popular for Mardi Gras in New Orleans. This would make
> the city a fun place to visit.
>
> Essentially this is the "house on stilts" idea but on a big enough scale
> you could house a population of 500,000 in a densely populated area.
I shudder to think of the poor old woman stuck on the 17th floor,
surrounded by gangs of roaming youths who are ready to break in at any
moment.
This is what happens when you ignore peoples' desires for open space and
the privacy of private homes and cram them into giant megastructures
where the identity of their home is reduced to a mere number on a door.
Just go over to Yahoo and do a search for "Housing Projects, Chicago" -
you'll see what I mean.
>
> For car storage some buildings would use the lower 3 or 4 stories for
> car parks. Again, visit Minneapolis to see this sort of structure.
> You'd need fewer cars since this would be a densely populated area with
> lots of people able to walk to work.
Car storage?
People use their cars.
And Katrina showed us just how vital cars are to the evacuation of
cities. Simply put, if you were in New Orleans and could get a car out,
you were MUCH better off than you would have been if you were one of the
thousands who didn't have a car or a spot in someone else's car.
Access to transportation was really the issue in New Orleans; not
directly socio-economics or race. The rich new urbanist yuppie lawyer
who refused to drive on principal was stuck in New Orleans. (He was
interviewed on NPR) The cabbie who recently arrived from Pakistan and
works 18 hours a day 6 days a week so his family can live at the poverty
level could use his cab to get out of the city. (I saw him driving down
the road in Houston right after I heard the first guy's interview on the
radio).
>
> This is the future.
No it's not.
>
> Of course, this doesn't fit in with the real estate agent / developer
> scenaria where every American is isolated on his own lot with 2 acres of
> grass to mow every weekend. That's going to prove economically
> non-viable when fuel prices rise, anyway.
Bullshit. And I know what you're saying is bullshit because if you
visit France, or Spain, or Germany, you'll see people living in private
suburban houses and driving cars to and from work. Meanwhile they
snicker when America goes into crisis over $3 a gallon prices at the
pump, because that's what they've been paying all along. In fact, many
Europeans pay significantly more than that for gas, and it hasn't
dampened their desire for comfortable, private, individual houses.
Their entire nation of Holland is like the city of New Orleans - below
sea level and prone to very nasty storms and floods. It's also a nation
with all of the high fuel prices and gas taxes as the rest of Europe.
But the Dutch haven't abandoned private houses and cars - they've
adapted them.
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>
> "Notan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> Built properly, a concrete wall can stop just about anything.
> >> Think: Hoover Dam.
> >
> > Constant, evenly dispersed pressure.
>
> How long will it take a backhoe to get through it?
>
> >
> >> A backhoe is a lightweight device, all things considered.
> >
> > Not.
>
> Relative to what? There are many mechanical or structurally made 10 x or
> more heavier than even a big backhoe.
My point is, it's not the material that's used, it's how
the structure is designed.
Notan
Michael Daly wrote:
> On 9-Sep-2005, "Don" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>2x8 jambs & head and 4"x1/4" tapcons 6" o/c staggered.
>>steel clad or solid core outswing door.
>>triple nickel 40 threshhold.
>>that'll stop em in their tracks.
>
>
> Local Hell's Angel hangout was raided - the cops used a backhoe
> to open the door. The HA rebuilt with a concrete wall in front
> to the door so they couldn't use a backhoe again.
>
> Mike
Cameras, man, cameras.
Cops, whether local guys on the beat, DEA agents, Secret Service, swat
teams, or anything, don't fear guns. They make sure they're always more
heavily armed than and outnumber the people they've been told to take out.
And they don't worry too much about heavily fortified buildings. As
your post states, if they find a door or wall that their battering rams
can't take down, they'll use a backhoe; if that doesn't work, a bulldozer.
What law enforcement fears; what can really put a stop to what they're
doing, is cameras. A single video of a cop doing something that doesn't
look right, sent to the media, will be more damaging to a cop than a
million guns, and a bigger impedement to their goals than a house built
like Fort Knox.
I saw video today of a scuffle between cops and evacuees. One of the
cops completely ignored his cohorts efforts to get a handle on the
situation, and instead approached the camera-man - yelling "TURN OFF THE
CAMERA! TURN OFF THE CAMERA NOW!"
Michael Daly wrote:
> On 9-Sep-2005, [email protected] (Bob Vaughan) wrote:
>
>
>>If not, you could use some form of camp toilet, with collection bags, and
>>store them in a larger drum when full.
>
>
> Composting toilet. Pricier, but works just fine. Put one on the second
> floor to avoid the flood.
>
> Mike
I like the way you think.
Put a composting toilet on the second floor.
And add a rooftop vegetable garden.
And a cistern to catch rain water.
Life could be sustained indefinitely.
Would one of those transparent plastic tent/ water purifiers that they
say to use if you're adrift at sea work on nasty flood waters? Or is it
just for getting the salt out of sea water? Anyoone know?
Don wrote:
> "Adam Weiss"> wrote
>
>>I saw video today of a scuffle between cops and evacuees. One of the cops
>>completely ignored his cohorts efforts to get a handle on the situation,
>>and instead approached the camera-man - yelling "TURN OFF THE CAMERA!
>>TURN OFF THE CAMERA NOW!"
>
>
> As the cop was armed, and was approaching the cameraman with a threatening
> tone, he deserved to be shot right in the face.
I'd warn against shooting a cop surrounded by other cops (with guns) in
the face.
I'd say the camera guy should have kept rolling, braced himself, and
seen if he could get the coming assault by an officer caught on film.
> Wouldn't his wife and kids like that?
>
> Why would a grown man (the cop) act that way?
>
Easy.
He had something to fear.
Remember Rodney King? It wasn't a gun that brought the LAPD to its
knees. It was a camera. Cameras are better than any other thing at
capturing the truth. And when the truth is leaked about police
activity, it's often rough for the cops involved.
Witness Amadou Diallo.
41 shots.
Don wrote:
>
> "Notan"> wrote
> > Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> >> "Notan"> wrote in message
> >> >> Built properly, a concrete wall can stop just about anything.
> >> >> Think: Hoover Dam.
> >> >
> >> > Constant, evenly dispersed pressure.
> >>
> >> How long will it take a backhoe to get through it?
> >> >
> >> >> A backhoe is a lightweight device, all things considered.
> >> >
> >> > Not.
> >>
> >> Relative to what? There are many mechanical or structurally made 10 x or
> >> more heavier than even a big backhoe.
> >
> > My point is, it's not the material that's used, it's how
> > the structure is designed.
>
> Duh.
> Thats why I said this:
> > Built properly, a concrete wall can stop just about anything.
> Pay attention.
If I'm not mistaken, my post was in response to Edwin's post.
I must've missed the point at which you started speaking for him.
Notan
Don wrote:
>
> "Notan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Don wrote:
> >>
> >> "Notan"> wrote
> >> > Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> >> >> "Notan"> wrote in message
> >> >> >> Built properly, a concrete wall can stop just about anything.
> >> >> >> Think: Hoover Dam.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Constant, evenly dispersed pressure.
> >> >>
> >> >> How long will it take a backhoe to get through it?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> A backhoe is a lightweight device, all things considered.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Not.
> >> >>
> >> >> Relative to what? There are many mechanical or structurally made 10 x
> >> >> or
> >> >> more heavier than even a big backhoe.
> >> >
> >> > My point is, it's not the material that's used, it's how
> >> > the structure is designed.
> >>
> >> Duh.
> >> Thats why I said this:
> >> > Built properly, a concrete wall can stop just about anything.
> >> Pay attention.
> >
> > If I'm not mistaken, my post was in response to Edwin's post.
> >
> > I must've missed the point at which you started speaking for him.
>
> There's lots of stuff you're missing.
> I'm hoping you'll catch up.
As I've said before, I can respect the fact that you're opinionated,
and stand firmly for the things you think are important.
But, you have this attitude, where anyone that disagrees with you is
unitelligent, uneducated, and <fill in any/all of your usual descriptors>.
You like to portray yourself as holier-than-everyone-else. You have *the*
answer, while no one else comes close.
Maybe you've always been this way, but it's only lately that I've begun
to see you as nothing more than a non-religious bible thumper.
While I'm sure that you couldn't care less about my opinions (or anyone
else's, for that matter), you *don't* have all the answers.
There's lots of stuff you're missing.
I'm hoping you'll catch up.
Notan
Notan wrote:
>
> Don wrote:
> >
> > "Notan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Don wrote:
> > >>
> > >> "Notan"> wrote
> > >> > Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> > >> >> "Notan"> wrote in message
> > >> >> >> Built properly, a concrete wall can stop just about anything.
> > >> >> >> Think: Hoover Dam.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Constant, evenly dispersed pressure.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> How long will it take a backhoe to get through it?
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >> A backhoe is a lightweight device, all things considered.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Not.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Relative to what? There are many mechanical or structurally made 10 x
> > >> >> or
> > >> >> more heavier than even a big backhoe.
> > >> >
> > >> > My point is, it's not the material that's used, it's how
> > >> > the structure is designed.
> > >>
> > >> Duh.
> > >> Thats why I said this:
> > >> > Built properly, a concrete wall can stop just about anything.
> > >> Pay attention.
> > >
> > > If I'm not mistaken, my post was in response to Edwin's post.
> > >
> > > I must've missed the point at which you started speaking for him.
> >
> > There's lots of stuff you're missing.
> > I'm hoping you'll catch up.
>
> As I've said before, I can respect the fact that you're opinionated,
> and stand firmly for the things you think are important.
>
> But, you have this attitude, where anyone that disagrees with you is
> unitelligent, uneducated, and <fill in any/all of your usual descriptors>.
> You like to portray yourself as holier-than-everyone-else. You have *the*
> answer, while no one else comes close.
>
> Maybe you've always been this way, but it's only lately that I've begun
> to see you as nothing more than a non-religious bible thumper.
>
> While I'm sure that you couldn't care less about my opinions (or anyone
> else's, for that matter), you *don't* have all the answers.
>
> There's lots of stuff you're missing.
> I'm hoping you'll catch up.
Spell-checker turned back on... That was "unintelligent."
Notan
Don wrote:
> "Adam Weiss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Don wrote:
>>
>>>"Adam Weiss"> wrote
>>>
>>>
>>>>I saw video today of a scuffle between cops and evacuees. One of the
>>>>cops completely ignored his cohorts efforts to get a handle on the
>>>>situation, and instead approached the camera-man - yelling "TURN OFF THE
>>>>CAMERA! TURN OFF THE CAMERA NOW!"
>>>
>>>
>>>As the cop was armed, and was approaching the cameraman with a
>>>threatening tone, he deserved to be shot right in the face.
>>
>>I'd warn against shooting a cop surrounded by other cops (with guns) in
>>the face.
>>
>>I'd say the camera guy should have kept rolling, braced himself, and seen
>>if he could get the coming assault by an officer caught on film.
>>
>>
>>>Wouldn't his wife and kids like that?
>>>
>>>Why would a grown man (the cop) act that way?
>>
>>Easy.
>>
>>He had something to fear.
>>
>>Remember Rodney King? It wasn't a gun that brought the LAPD to its knees.
>>It was a camera. Cameras are better than any other thing at capturing the
>>truth. And when the truth is leaked about police activity, it's often
>>rough for the cops involved.
>>
>>Witness Amadou Diallo.
>>
>>41 shots.
>
>
> Precisely.
> When cops start fearing for their lives, then they may adjust their
> behavior.
> I;m not against the *concept* of cops, but I believe they have been largely
> perverted these days.
> Tazing 13 yo gurls and and handicapped old ladies, etc. You know what I
> mean.
Tasing 6 year olds is what they do now.
Didn't you see the news? It was right there in FLA if I remember. Miami.
> Most are OK but the bad ones drag all of them down.
Totally true.
I would add that the blue wall of silence doesn't help matters.
Otherwise good cops seem to unwaveringly stand by their bad colleagues
even when they know it's wrong.
But that's not all. District Attorneys who have learned to trust and
work with cops to jail criminals wind up being the ones who prosecute
those very same cops when people are brutalized. Talk about a system
open to corruption.
> If they policed themselves a lot of this stuff would be history.
> But they don't, so they all suffer.
>
Thanks to Frank Serpico there is an internal affairs unit with most
large forces now, and they are theoretically supposed to police the
police. But if internal affairs were really enough, Amadou Diallo and
Rodney King wouldn't have fallen victim.
Don wrote:
>
> "Notan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Notan wrote:
> >>
> >> Don wrote:
> >> >
> >> > "Notan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> > news:[email protected]...
> >> > > Don wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> "Notan"> wrote
> >> > >> > Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> >> > >> >> "Notan"> wrote in message
> >> > >> >> >> Built properly, a concrete wall can stop just about anything.
> >> > >> >> >> Think: Hoover Dam.
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >> > Constant, evenly dispersed pressure.
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> How long will it take a backhoe to get through it?
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >> A backhoe is a lightweight device, all things considered.
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >> > Not.
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> Relative to what? There are many mechanical or structurally made
> >> > >> >> 10 x
> >> > >> >> or
> >> > >> >> more heavier than even a big backhoe.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > My point is, it's not the material that's used, it's how
> >> > >> > the structure is designed.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Duh.
> >> > >> Thats why I said this:
> >> > >> > Built properly, a concrete wall can stop just about anything.
> >> > >> Pay attention.
> >> > >
> >> > > If I'm not mistaken, my post was in response to Edwin's post.
> >> > >
> >> > > I must've missed the point at which you started speaking for him.
> >> >
> >> > There's lots of stuff you're missing.
> >> > I'm hoping you'll catch up.
> >>
> >> As I've said before, I can respect the fact that you're opinionated,
> >> and stand firmly for the things you think are important.
> >>
> >> But, you have this attitude, where anyone that disagrees with you is
> >> unitelligent, uneducated, and <fill in any/all of your usual
> >> descriptors>.
> >> You like to portray yourself as holier-than-everyone-else. You have *the*
> >> answer, while no one else comes close.
> >>
> >> Maybe you've always been this way, but it's only lately that I've begun
> >> to see you as nothing more than a non-religious bible thumper.
> >>
> >> While I'm sure that you couldn't care less about my opinions (or anyone
> >> else's, for that matter), you *don't* have all the answers.
> >>
> >> There's lots of stuff you're missing.
> >> I'm hoping you'll catch up.
> >
> > Spell-checker turned back on... That was "unintelligent."
>
> You mean *grammer checker*.
No, spell-checker.
And, that's exactly what I'm talking about... You always *think* you
know better.
I *misspelled* a word, which a spell-checker would have caught.
A *grammar checker* (By the way, you should've used your *spell checker*
on that one! <g>) would have told me if my sentence was grammatically
incorrect.
Notan
Don wrote:
> "Adam Weiss"> wrote
>
>>Put a composting toilet on the second floor.
>>And add a rooftop vegetable garden.
>
>
> I hope you're not going to connect the two!
>
>
Why not? A composting toilet works like a compost pile. Basically it
turns waste into nutrient-rich topsoil.
The topsoil is then used to help grow the plants in the vegetable garden.
If you're looking to build a house that can not only withstand a
hurricane but can also allow you to live relatively comfortably while
the power and water is still out, this sort of adaptive reuse of human
waste makes alot of sense.
Don wrote:
>
> "Matt Whiting"> wrote
> > Don wrote:
> >> "Matt Whiting"> wrote
> >>>Don wrote:
> >>>>"EagleMtn"> wrote
> >>>>>I dobt that a concrete wall will stop a backhoe.
> >>>>
> >>>>Built properly, a concrete wall can stop just about anything.
> >>>>Think: Hoover Dam.
> >>>
> >>>Think shaped charge. :-)
> >>
> >> Think collateral damage.
> >> Rather than try to get in the heavily reinforced front door, just
> >> chainsaw a hole through the wall.
> >
> > I was talking about the dam. I'm not sure a chainsaw would be that
> > effective... :-)
>
> Just went looking for it and couldn't find it, but, a couple weeks ago my
> brother sent me a link for a chainsaw that cuts concrete.
> It might not do much regarding Hoover, but I'd still like to have one in my
> stable.
While I've never heard of a concrete chainsaw, they *do* make portable
concrete circular saws.
Notan
On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 18:12:50 -0400, "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> "Notan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>>> Underground would prevent *all* wind damage, but the house
>>> would have to be 110% waterproof/watertight, and have some
>>> type of above-ground ventilation system.
>>
>> House built into the side of a mountain that is above sea level. ~
>> preferably in a lesser earthquake zone.
>>
>>
>
>Versus the mountains that are below sea-level????????????????????
>
>
Looks like all of the major concrete buildings in downtown N.O.
"survived" Katrina noting the obvious problems with windows being
blown out and the roof of the Superdome falling apart.
The dumb decicions would be the placement of critical facilities at
the ground (flooding level), for locating emergency generators,
electrical rooms, HVAC, etc. It would seem that if these were
located at higher floors to begin with, coupled with larger emergency
water tanks and fuel supplies, and perhaps a 2 week pre-placed food
supply, that these buildings would make nice shelters against future
hurricanes (even cat. 5).
Elsewhere in the city, critical cellular and municipal communications
towers should have been hardened for maximum strength and have all
generators and ground facilities elevated above the flooding level.
Beachcomber
Don wrote:
>
> "HMFIC-1369"> wrote
> > Bottom line is 30 days! Katrina shows areas still under flood waters, well
> > after a week. The object is NOT rescue! I maintain 6 months food and water
> > in my food cellar.
>
> How much space does 6 months worth of food and water occupy?
More significantly, how does one prevent the flooding of the cellar or
the complete destruction of the entire dwelling given a Cat 5 or Fujita
5 storm?
Don wrote:
>
> "Duane Bozarth"> wrote
> > Don wrote:
> >> "HMFIC-1369"> wrote
> >> > Bottom line is 30 days! Katrina shows areas still under flood waters,
> >> > well
> >> > after a week. The object is NOT rescue! I maintain 6 months food and
> >> > water
> >> > in my food cellar.
> >>
> >> How much space does 6 months worth of food and water occupy?
> >
> > More significantly, how does one prevent the flooding of the cellar or
> > the complete destruction of the entire dwelling given a Cat 5 or Fujita
> > 5 storm?
>
> Here in SW FL, home of the 4 hellraisers of 04', everything below the 10'
> level (10' above sea level) is considered a lost cause.
> FEMA specifically addresses these items in the building codes.
Precisely my point...to do what HMFIC wants in general is a very
difficult and expensive task. You can be prepared for ordinary events
pretty well and make things a lot easier on yourself, but in a
catastrophic situation things are likely to get out of hand for almost
everybody in the affected area.
Don wrote:
>
> "Duane Bozarth"> wrote
> > Precisely my point...to do what HMFIC wants in general is a very
> > difficult and expensive task. You can be prepared for ordinary events
> > pretty well and make things a lot easier on yourself, but in a
> > catastrophic situation things are likely to get out of hand for almost
> > everybody in the affected area.
>
> I design large scale custom homes on the barrier islands off the coast of SW
> Florida.
> These homes are inherently expensive for several reasons, not just because
> of the so called *personal greed* of the owners.
Yes, when one attempts to do something inherently fool^h^h^h^hrisky, one
should at least make the effort to protect the investment. It's still
an area not really suitable for the use.
> I've heard that upwards of 60% of the residents of NOLA were at the poverty
> level or lower.
> The buildings that housed these people probably won't be rebuilt.
Those that were flooded, probably not, although what is going to be done
is pretty well still in the future...
> I've also heard that most of those folks in that 60% have already been
> relocated, some have jobs and are moving on with their lives, probably
> aren't concerned with moving back to NOLA.
Relocated, yes. Permanent location, job? I suspect that would probably
be <<1%, so far.
> So what's left?
> The infrastructure, businesses and residences.
Some is, a of lot that isn't even left or worth the cost of rebuilding,
either. They're talking of trashing the Superdome, even, which was a
pretty substantial structure and investment.
> Here, in the 130mph wind zone we address the issue 2 ways.
130 mph is strong, but certainly far below the full-force 200+ mph plus
storm surge of a head-on coastal barrage. 130 mph is "designable" for
survival at a cost that isn't <totally> prohibitive. As you're well
aware, that cost will escalate rapidly as the design criteria rise.
...
> Each year the height requirement seems to increase, the new home across the
> street from me is at least 1-1/2' higher than mine.
Guaranteeing, after the rest are elevated that the low spots will then
be flooded.
> In 20 years the only thing that will be allowed to be built around here will
> be poured in place solid concrete domes anchored to the mantle itself with
> precast 80' pilings 4' on center both ways. ;-(
As it should be if in such a location. It simply isn't a very good
choice of location for building permanent structures. I've thought what
folks who want to live in such places should do would be to simply build
disposable houses and when the big one comes leave, planning from the
beginning to simply bulldoze and start again. Be cheaper, structurally,
albeit less convenient.
Michael Daly wrote:
>
> On 12-Sep-2005, "Don" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > FEMA specifically addresses these items in the building codes.
>
> FEMA sets building codes?
No, not specifically. They have made some efforts particularly since
the spate of FL hurricanes to address design issues regarding roofs,
etc., for enhancing survivability. The results I've seen haven't been
uniformly successful attempts as, for one example, the guidelines for
upgrading asbestos shingle roofs apparently were developed and published
internally or w/ consulting input but not using any input from any of
the manufacturers, etc. Consequently, there are published guidelines
for which there are no commercially available materials to meet.
Goedjn wrote:
>
> >Why have a foundation?
> >
>
> It makes it easier to figure out where to park
> the house, it keeps the house from sinking
> wandering around during normal weather, it keeps the
> wooden bits away from the wood-eating dirt, and it
> gives you a fixed point to which you can
> anchor your utilities.
... and provides an attractive launching pad.
Notan
Don wrote:
>
> "Cato"> wrote
> > Don wrote:
> >> "Cherokee-Ltd"> wrote
> >> > "The length of the Ark shall be 300 cubits, the breadth of it 50
> >> > cubits,
> >> > and the height of it 30 cubits. A window shall thou make to the Ark and
> >> > in
> >> > a cubit shalt thou finish it above." - God
> >>
> >> Tell god to transfer all that stuff into standard architectural
> >> dimensions,
> >> please.
> >> Thanks, Mgt.
> >
> > Metric?
>
> Sure, thats better than that biblical stuff.
I don't know, at least there was always a standard at hand (so to
speak)... :)
"Matt Whiting" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> gruhn wrote:
>>>I nominate this thread as the most retarded ever in the history of
>>>these groups.
>>
>>
>> Second nomination of "Prize winner?" as most retarded thread ever.
>>
>>
>
> I nominate you both as the most retarded posters to a thread ever.
>
I know you are butt what am I????
;-]
Don wrote:
> "jo4hn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Dr. Hardcrab wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Matt Whiting" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>
>>>>gruhn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>I nominate this thread as the most retarded ever in the history of
>>>>>>these groups.
>>>>>
>>>>>Second nomination of "Prize winner?" as most retarded thread ever.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I nominate you both as the most retarded posters to a thread ever.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I know you are butt what am I????
>>>
>>>;-]
>>
>>Nah. Robin's butt. Just ask Ms Hartl and Mr Lee.
>
>
> OK, I know robin hartl's butt quite well but who is mr lee?
>
>
ummm. Lee Valley ring a bell?
On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 19:14:27 GMT, "Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote:
>How should this house be built and what should it have?
Best would be to build it in Britain, not America. (after all, "in
Hertford, Hereford and Hampshire hurricanes hardly ever happen")
Second best would be to build it in America, in the way the British have
always, and still do, build perfectly average houses. They're not great
in earthquakes and in hurricanes the roof comes off (just look at
Birmingham a month or two back) but the expensive structure stays intact
and doesn't crush the inhabitants.
If you're worried about flooding, ask the Netherlanders, who have done
this stuff quietly and competently for centuries.
"SwampBug" wrote in message
> but it is those rounded edges that make it work. . .flat surface collect
wind or sail boats would not work.
Yabbut ... a pyramid deflects wind like a wing, plus you can cover all
avenues of approach from one location.
You're in S Louisiana, right? ... how'd you fare in the latest hurricane?
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05
Steve (in [email protected]) said:
| A boat on a foundation. It would break away and float in the event
| that the water got too high. Or one on pilings high enough to
| withstand Katrina
You mean like one of those big casino boats?
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html
On 9-Sep-2005, [email protected] (Bob Vaughan) wrote:
> If not, you could use some form of camp toilet, with collection bags, and
> store them in a larger drum when full.
Composting toilet. Pricier, but works just fine. Put one on the second
floor to avoid the flood.
Mike
Don wrote:
> "Matt Whiting"> wrote
>
>>Don wrote:
>>
>>>"EagleMtn"> wrote
>>>
>>>
>>>>I dobt that a concrete wall will stop a backhoe.
>>>
>>>Built properly, a concrete wall can stop just about anything.
>>>Think: Hoover Dam.
>>
>>Think shaped charge. :-)
>
>
> Think collateral damage.
> Rather than try to get in the heavily reinforced front door, just chainsaw a
> hole through the wall.
I was talking about the dam. I'm not sure a chainsaw would be that
effective... :-)
Matt
"Cherokee-Ltd"> wrote
> "The length of the Ark shall be 300 cubits, the breadth of it 50 cubits,
> and the height of it 30 cubits. A window shall thou make to the Ark and in
> a cubit shalt thou finish it above." - God
Tell god to transfer all that stuff into standard architectural dimensions,
please.
Thanks, Mgt.
"Joseph Meehan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Nehmo wrote:
>> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
>> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
>> been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
>> damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>>
>> You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
>> wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
>> before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
>> impacts of debris.
>>
>> You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>>
>> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and
>> supplies. And the house would need a secure means of transportation
>> for escape if necessary.
>>
>> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>>
>>|||||||||||||||| Nehmo Sergheyev ||||||||||||||||
>
>
> Easy answer. Just build it in Antarctica. It has not had a hurricane
> in millions of years.
>
> --
> Joseph Meehan
>
> Dia duit
>
Plus no germs or bacteria. Food would stay longer for the survivalist.
Saw a show once about Antarctica. They came across a dead seal, looked
like it died yesterday. Narrator mentioned that it had died 300 years ago.
Wonder if the meat was still good?
--
Chris
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.
"Notan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> CWatters wrote:
>>
>> "Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> >
>> > How should this house be built and what should it have?
>>
>> Underground?
>
> That thought, too, crossed my mind.
>
> Underground would prevent *all* wind damage, but the house
> would have to be 110% waterproof/watertight, and have some
> type of above-ground ventilation system.
>
I knew someone who lived in an underground house on a river plain. It was
underwater at least a month out of the year. The entrance, power, water,
etc. all came in from up the hill. The waste was pumped out to a holding
tank that was emptied regularly.
It was a comfortable house too. No idea how it was constructed. I was a
little young at the time or I would have inquired.
Notan wrote:
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>
>>Nehmo wrote:
>>
>>>Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
>>>sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
>>>been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
>>>damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>>>
>>>You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
>>>wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
>>>before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
>>>impacts of debris.
>>>
>>>You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>>>
>>>The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
>>>And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
>>>necessary.
>>>
>>>How should this house be built and what should it have?
>>>
>>
>>I'd build it using reinforced concrete with metal shutters to close over
>>the windows, it's own 30 day water supply and enough fuel to power a
>>backup generator for that same amount of time, and I'd build it on
>>columns at least 20' tall above the ground, or whatever the storm surge
>>level from a cat 5 storm is expected to be in that area.
>
>
> And, while building it off the ground, to get out of harm's way of the water,
> aren't you exposing it to more potential wind damage?
Possibly, hence the use of reinforced concrete and the steel shutters.
Matt
On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 20:32:20 GMT, Matt Whiting <[email protected]>
wrote:
>robo hippy wrote:
>
>> A forgotten tecnique for lumber framing and putting on plywood and
>> waferboard is to toe nail.
>Except that this is largely irrelevant when it comes to installing
>sheathing.
The junk the call plywood these days makes it all irrelevant. Full of
unfilled knotholes, inferior lumber, and glue that really isn't, make
it largely unsuitable for normal use let alone as a deterrant to a
major hurricane .
but it is those rounded edges that make it work. . .flat surface collect =
wind or sail boats would not work.
--=20
SwampBug
- - - - - - - - - - - -
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
"SwampBug" wrote in message
>>http://www.monolithic.com/gallery/homes/eye/pictorial1.html
That's just a pyramid with the edges rounded off.
--=20
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05
Since everybody for the most part overlooked the obvious........ I'd say it
may stand, just nothing at home upstairs!
"Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
> been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
> damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>
> You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
> wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
> before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
> impacts of debris.
>
> You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>
> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
> And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
> necessary.
>
> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
> --
> |||||||||||||||| Nehmo Sergheyev ||||||||||||||||
>
>
"Don" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> I'm funny that way.
> I'll eat veggies grown in cow shit but not human shit.
> Its complex.....
Some sewage treatment plants are making a compost as a by-product. Maybe it
goes through a turd sorter first.
I'm sure there are.
"Don" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Then there's 1/2 a million idiots living rather well here in the target
zone
> of Lee County, Florida.
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Don" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> I'm funny that way.
>> I'll eat veggies grown in cow shit but not human shit.
>> Its complex.....
>
> Some sewage treatment plants are making a compost as a by-product. Maybe
> it goes through a turd sorter first.
He said turd sorter. LOL
"Duane Bozarth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Don wrote:
>>
>> "Cato"> wrote
>> > Don wrote:
>> >> "Cherokee-Ltd"> wrote
>> >> > "The length of the Ark shall be 300 cubits, the breadth of it 50
>> >> > cubits,
>> >> > and the height of it 30 cubits. A window shall thou make to the Ark
>> >> > and
>> >> > in
>> >> > a cubit shalt thou finish it above." - God
>> >>
>> >> Tell god to transfer all that stuff into standard architectural
>> >> dimensions,
>> >> please.
>> >> Thanks, Mgt.
>> >
>> > Metric?
>>
>> Sure, thats better than that biblical stuff.
>
> I don't know, at least there was always a standard at hand (so to
> speak)... :)
heh-heh
"Jim-Poncin"> wrote
> Yes, and if subjected to heavy wave action it would probably fail. Cat 3
> Katrina tore up a lot of heavy duty structures. But even before those
> considerations it would cost way too much and would not pass residential
> codes because it would be an eyesore.
> A realistic house would have to be one at ground level that could
> survive immersion. I think that means a heavy stone/cement igloo shaped
> structure.
Nope.
I've done over 300 hpmes in the 130mph wind zone during the past 15 years
and all of them sustained the 4 terrors last year.
No ONE thing will do it, it takes a *system*.
Clue: Abiding by FEMA dictates will get people killed.
"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Notan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> Underground would prevent *all* wind damage, but the house
>> would have to be 110% waterproof/watertight, and have some
>> type of above-ground ventilation system.
>
> House built into the side of a mountain that is above sea level. ~
> preferably in a lesser earthquake zone.
>
>
Versus the mountains that are below sea-level????????????????????
"Notan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Don wrote:
>>
>> "Notan"> wrote
>> > Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>> >> "Notan"> wrote in message
>> >> >> Built properly, a concrete wall can stop just about anything.
>> >> >> Think: Hoover Dam.
>> >> >
>> >> > Constant, evenly dispersed pressure.
>> >>
>> >> How long will it take a backhoe to get through it?
>> >> >
>> >> >> A backhoe is a lightweight device, all things considered.
>> >> >
>> >> > Not.
>> >>
>> >> Relative to what? There are many mechanical or structurally made 10 x
>> >> or
>> >> more heavier than even a big backhoe.
>> >
>> > My point is, it's not the material that's used, it's how
>> > the structure is designed.
>>
>> Duh.
>> Thats why I said this:
>> > Built properly, a concrete wall can stop just about anything.
>> Pay attention.
>
> If I'm not mistaken, my post was in response to Edwin's post.
>
> I must've missed the point at which you started speaking for him.
There's lots of stuff you're missing.
I'm hoping you'll catch up.
"Joseph Meehan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>Easy answer. Just build it in Antarctica. It has not had a hurricane
> in millions of years.
> --
> Joseph Meehan
> Dia duit
BETTER answer.... Just build it in Canada...we have plenty of flood planes
for the moronic and a well established reputation for helping our neighbours
as opposed to using high powered fire arms to solve all our problems.
Regards,
Doug
"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 19:14:27 GMT, "Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> [asinine proposition snipped]
>
> I nominate this thread as the most retarded ever in the history of
> these groups.
So said the boy that lives in the cave. LOL
"Notan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> Built properly, a concrete wall can stop just about anything.
>> Think: Hoover Dam.
>
> Constant, evenly dispersed pressure.
How long will it take a backhoe to get through it?
>
>> A backhoe is a lightweight device, all things considered.
>
> Not.
Relative to what? There are many mechanical or structurally made 10 x or
more heavier than even a big backhoe.
"Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
> been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
> damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>
> You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
> wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
> before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
> impacts of debris.
>
> You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>
> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
> And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
> necessary.
>
> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
> --
> |||||||||||||||| Nehmo Sergheyev ||||||||||||||||
>
>
A ferro cement geodesic dome.
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> I'd drill the little fucker that went "WEE WEE WEE" all the way
>> home...
You mean you'd "pork" him?
--
"New Wave" Dave In Houston
"zxcvbob"> wrote
> I was just wondering about how to reinforce the front door so the cops
> couldn't kick it open -- even with that little battering ram they use,
> unless they want to keep pounding on it for 20 minutes. I think the door
> frame and the latch are probably more important than the actual door.
2x8 jambs & head and 4"x1/4" tapcons 6" o/c staggered.
steel clad or solid core outswing door.
triple nickel 40 threshhold.
that'll stop em in their tracks.
"Duane Bozarth"> wrote
> Michael Daly wrote:
>> "Don"> wrote:
>> > FEMA specifically addresses these items in the building codes.
>>
>> FEMA sets building codes?
>
> No, not specifically. They have made some efforts particularly since
> the spate of FL hurricanes to address design issues regarding roofs,
> etc., for enhancing survivability. The results I've seen haven't been
> uniformly successful attempts as, for one example, the guidelines for
> upgrading asbestos shingle roofs apparently were developed and published
> internally or w/ consulting input but not using any input from any of
> the manufacturers, etc. Consequently, there are published guidelines
> for which there are no commercially available materials to meet.
Here in Lee County they use sort of a hybrid code, geared specifically for
this area.
Its rooted in the FBC but has many added rules.
The FEMA parameters take precedent.
This whole code thing is getting to be out of control.
Its to the point now that most people design the building and then submit
for a permit and let the plans examiner determine what works and what
doesn't.
I've dotted every I and crossed the T's and still get rejected.
Its a good thing computers came along when they did because it would be very
difficult to do a set of plans by hand, with all the notes and details and
stuff that are required.
Nehmo wrote:
> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
> been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
> damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>
> You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
> wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
> before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
> impacts of debris.
>
> You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>
> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
> And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
> necessary.
>
> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
It should (like all others that need to be rebuilt) be placed in a
different location that has stable soil, isn't below sea level and
further inland so it isn't prone to the significant force of a hurricane
coming ashore.
"Dr. Hardcrab" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:e3CUe.3223$8h6.770@trnddc09...
>
> "Don" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "jo4hn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Dr. Hardcrab wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Matt Whiting" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>>>gruhn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>I nominate this thread as the most retarded ever in the history of
>>>>>>>these groups.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Second nomination of "Prize winner?" as most retarded thread ever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>I nominate you both as the most retarded posters to a thread ever.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I know you are butt what am I????
>>>>
>>>> ;-]
>>> Nah. Robin's butt. Just ask Ms Hartl and Mr Lee.
>>
>> OK, I know robin hartl's butt quite well but who is mr lee?
>>
>
> I don't know who Robin is let alone her/his butt.
>
> If it's a him, I WILL let it alone....
If you saw Robin's butt you'd know right away her gender. heh-heh
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
>> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water
>> has been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer
>> zero damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>
>> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and
>> supplies. And the house would need a secure means of transportation
>> for escape if necessary.
>>
>> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
> Some of the codes for building at the shores take some of this into
> consideration already. Most have to be raised about eight feet and no
> utilities below that.
>
> I'd probably use ICF construction. www.polysteel.com or
> www.integraspec.com While the outside may have superficial damage,
> the walls would not collapse. Shutters for the windows.
>
> Plenty of supplies on hand, but I'd also have some sort of water
> filtration/purification system. Generator, of course, but I'm now
> sure that the best fuel would be. You'd want at least a two week
> fuel supply and something easily replenished if longer term is needed.
Add Composting toilets, solar electric power and a large water storage tank
(3000+)
Dome type concrete construction with garage on bottom with water flow
through capability (open doors to let storm surge through) oh wait, I saw
one of these on Discovery channel already built in Florida. Built to
withstand over 300 mph winds.
Gary
Nehmo (in [email protected]) said:
| How should this house be built and what should it have?
Solid but light. Wheels.
[and anti-troll protection]
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html
"Don" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Lil' Dave"> wrote
> > "Nehmo"> wrote
> >> How should this house be built and what should it have?
> >>
> > Don't live there, don't build there. You're an idiot if you do.
>
> Then there's 1/2 a million idiots living rather well here in the target
zone
> of Lee County, Florida.
> You can look at history and become smarter for it, or you can go on USENET
> and blindly swing pointed sticks.
>
>
Cows have that too, its called herd instinct. Today's typical mindset,
impression that it qualifiies since the herd is doing it, doesn't involve
much higher thinking. Moo.
"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 19:14:27 GMT, "Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> [asinine proposition snipped]
>
> I nominate this thread as the most retarded ever in the history of
> these groups.
I have seen worst, but
<In my best Larry King voice>
"It's way up there...."
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Chris" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Asking the "Three Little Pigs" comes to mind. That is of course if they
>> are still around
>
> Didn't one of them go to market?
Yes, but he was looting, so it was ok.
"Cato"> wrote
> skroob wrote:
>> Surplus army submarine would solve all issues.
>
> How about a set of plane tickets set for parts far away?
Make that boat tickets and I'll order 2 right away.
When an airplane stops flying you can't get out and fly.
When a boat stops floating you can get out and swim.
Humans are more closely related to fish than birds. ;-)
I am in SW Louisiana and Katrina did not affect us at all. I am about 35 =
miles, as the crow flies, from the Gulf coast and at a 26 ft elevation. =
I live in a monolithic dome on the order of the site I posted and =
hurricane winds on this dome would be like you blowing on your truck. I =
may still loose windows and possibly one door but that can be addressed =
also. My philosophy, as a results of living thru many hurricanes =
including Audrey in '57 which came in right on top of us, is "You can't =
stop the wind from blowing, but you can decide what gets broke!".
--=20
SwampBug
- - - - - - - - - - - -
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
"SwampBug" wrote in message
> but it is those rounded edges that make it work. . .flat surface =
collect
wind or sail boats would not work.
Yabbut ... a pyramid deflects wind like a wing, plus you can cover all
avenues of approach from one location.
You're in S Louisiana, right? ... how'd you fare in the latest =
hurricane?
--=20
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05
Dr. Hardcrab wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>gruhn wrote:
>>
>>>>I nominate this thread as the most retarded ever in the history of
>>>>these groups.
>>>
>>>
>>>Second nomination of "Prize winner?" as most retarded thread ever.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I nominate you both as the most retarded posters to a thread ever.
>>
>
>
>
> I know you are butt what am I????
^^^^
I think you wrote it above! :-)
I'm not a survivor nut just a Cosco, BJ, Sams kind a guy. Food really not
much space, but water is a lot, but you can cut water if using a lot of
canned foods (because of water). I keep lots of dried legumes, nuts and
fruits. I also pick up cases of ensure and power bars when on sale. But
don't laugh I actually have a river next to the house... The water is for
the little woman. I got my filtration pac.
I use 1/2 Gal. perday this is good for heat of summer. I have 20 5 gallon
and 10 1 gallon and 6 32 bottle cases. With all the food and gear 12 foot
wide by 36" deep and 8 foot high. It takes up one small wall.
The water is really no problem I get it delivered, plus we don't use tap
here many years ago it was great but the last 10 heavy chlorination. and
normal daily use is pretty consistent with morning coffee to 1 G.
"Don" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "HMFIC-1369"> wrote
> > Bottom line is 30 days! Katrina shows areas still under flood waters,
well
> > after a week. The object is NOT rescue! I maintain 6 months food and
water
> > in my food cellar.
>
> How much space does 6 months worth of food and water occupy?
>
>
I'm sure you're sure.
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm sure there are.
>
> "Don" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Then there's 1/2 a million idiots living rather well here in the target
> zone
>> of Lee County, Florida.
>
>
"MaxChunk"> wrote
> This is the future.
Might be your future but I'll have no part of it, thanks.
> Of course, this doesn't fit in with the real estate agent / developer
> scenaria where every American is isolated on his own lot with 2 acres of
> grass to mow every weekend.
And then there's the millions of regular persons that want their own space,
to do with as they choose.
That's going to prove economically
> non-viable when fuel prices rise, anyway.
Cows have been keeping grasses closely trimmed for millenia, AND they afford
some payback!
(I'm not particularly fond of all that motorized lawn maintenance in the
first place) ;-)
As expected, the gov't staggered around like a drunken giant and the
citizenry got stuff done on its own.
Common people working as individuals and teams to clear the roads, clean the
homes and get the power back up.
The street intersections with no traffic signals and NO cops ran the
smoothest.
The intersections with cops directing traffic were clogged continuously.
During a disaster the very last thing people need underfoot are groups of
braindead, unaccountable gov't employees stumbling around.
"JerryD(upstateNY)"> wrote
> Four Hellraisers in 04, huh ?
> How did FEMA do it these ?
> What was the difference between Florida and NO ?
> Was it Jeb Bush VS Kathleen Babineaux Blanco ?
>
> --
> JerryD(upstateNY)
>
> Here in SW FL, home of the 4 hellraisers of 04', everything below the 10'
> level (10' above sea level) is considered a lost cause.
> FEMA specifically addresses these items in the building codes.
>
"Saab Guy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> So let's do a FULL recap of this house. I am going to save this for
> future use and reference.
>
> Let's fill in the blanks and develope this and have it stand the test
> of back-and-forth until we ALL agree on the resultant.
>
> Let's also be realistic, but don't limit yourself. Let's be practical
> but without any sacrifice on anything for the sake of safety &
> security most importantly.
>
> HURRICANE-HOUSE
This is going to take a shitload of concrete.
--
"New Wave" Dave In Houston
Bottom line is 30 days! Katrina shows areas still under flood waters, well
after a week. The object is NOT rescue! I maintain 6 months food and water
in my food cellar. This will allow me to ride out the worst and be able to
relocate to safer area if need be and still maintain a solid homefront!
"Goedjn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> >
> >The answer will be a storm-proof safe room built on top of this
> >concrete structure. It will probably be the size of a large bathroom
> >and made of steel or concrete for protection against flying debris or
> >tree falls. It should be capable of being buttoned down and float
> >upright like a boat should it be dislodged. At that level of storm
> >intensity there is no longer any consideration of living in it to
> >guard your property. All you want is to survive the perfect storm and
> >get the hell out, a stay of less than 48 hours.
>
> Disagreement: If you're going to this length, you should use a more
> reasonable figure for time-to-rescue of 7 days. 72 hours
> is the figure used for people who are trying to do the best
> they can with what's available. 72 hours is what you should
> keep in the trunk of your car.
>
>
>
"zxcvbob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Chris wrote:
>>
>> Saw a show once about Antarctica. They came across a dead seal, looked
>> like it died yesterday. Narrator mentioned that it had died 300 years
>> ago. Wonder if the meat was still good?
>>
>
>
> How did the narrator know that?
>
> -Bob
Not sure, I suppose you could ask him. As I remember he was as scientist
stationed down there. Good enough for me. My guess would be carbon dating.
--
Chris
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.
"Cato"> wrote
> Don wrote:
>> "Cherokee-Ltd"> wrote
>> > "The length of the Ark shall be 300 cubits, the breadth of it 50
>> > cubits,
>> > and the height of it 30 cubits. A window shall thou make to the Ark and
>> > in
>> > a cubit shalt thou finish it above." - God
>>
>> Tell god to transfer all that stuff into standard architectural
>> dimensions,
>> please.
>> Thanks, Mgt.
>
> Metric?
Sure, thats better than that biblical stuff.
http://www.monolithic.com/gallery/homes/eye/pictorial1.html
--=20
SwampBug
- - - - - - - - - - - -
"Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
impacts of debris.
You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
necessary.
How should this house be built and what should it have?
--=20
|||||||||||||||| Nehmo Sergheyev ||||||||||||||||
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Upscale" wrote in message
>
>> > How should this house be built and what should it have?
>>
>> Considering that no type of house is ever going to be absolutely safe,
>
> The basic design is already at least a few thousand years old, on more
> than
> one continent.
>
> ... pyramid.
>
> --
Ya bit they got looted too!
--
Chris
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.
"Goedjn" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
|=20
| >
| >The answer will be a storm-proof safe room built on top of this
| >concrete structure. It will probably be the size of a large bathroom
| >and made of steel or concrete for protection against flying debris or
| >tree falls. It should be capable of being buttoned down and float
| >upright like a boat should it be dislodged. At that level of storm
| >intensity there is no longer any consideration of living in it to
| >guard your property. All you want is to survive the perfect storm =
and
| >get the hell out, a stay of less than 48 hours.
|=20
| Disagreement: If you're going to this length, you should use a more
| reasonable figure for time-to-rescue of 7 days. 72 hours
| is the figure used for people who are trying to do the best=20
| they can with what's available. 72 hours is what you should
| keep in the trunk of your car.
|=20
|=20
|=20
Seems to me Noah planned for a longer stay.
Also seems his structure was a bit bigger too.
<BG>
--=20
PDQ
--
"Adam Weiss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Don wrote:
>> "Adam Weiss"> wrote
>>
>>>I saw video today of a scuffle between cops and evacuees. One of the
>>>cops completely ignored his cohorts efforts to get a handle on the
>>>situation, and instead approached the camera-man - yelling "TURN OFF THE
>>>CAMERA! TURN OFF THE CAMERA NOW!"
>>
>>
>> As the cop was armed, and was approaching the cameraman with a
>> threatening tone, he deserved to be shot right in the face.
>
> I'd warn against shooting a cop surrounded by other cops (with guns) in
> the face.
>
> I'd say the camera guy should have kept rolling, braced himself, and seen
> if he could get the coming assault by an officer caught on film.
>
>> Wouldn't his wife and kids like that?
>>
>> Why would a grown man (the cop) act that way?
>
> Easy.
>
> He had something to fear.
>
> Remember Rodney King? It wasn't a gun that brought the LAPD to its knees.
> It was a camera. Cameras are better than any other thing at capturing the
> truth. And when the truth is leaked about police activity, it's often
> rough for the cops involved.
>
> Witness Amadou Diallo.
>
> 41 shots.
Precisely.
When cops start fearing for their lives, then they may adjust their
behavior.
I;m not against the *concept* of cops, but I believe they have been largely
perverted these days.
Tazing 13 yo gurls and and handicapped old ladies, etc. You know what I
mean.
Most are OK but the bad ones drag all of them down.
If they policed themselves a lot of this stuff would be history.
But they don't, so they all suffer.
On 9-Sep-2005, "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Plus no germs or bacteria.
It isn't that they aren't there - they do exist in certain
crevices in rock faces and survive in tiny microclimates.
Since they aren't too mobile, your dead seal on a beach
can last a long time.
Mike
"Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:J%[email protected]...
>
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, "Chris" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Asking the "Three Little Pigs" comes to mind. That is of course if
>>> they
>>> are still around
>>
>> Didn't one of them go to market?
>
> Yes, but he was looting, so it was ok.
But which one do you shoot?
One had roast beef and the other had nun........
--
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
|=20
| "PDQ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
| news:[email protected]...
| "Goedjn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
| news:[email protected]...
|=20
| Seems to me Noah planned for a longer stay.
| Also seems his structure was a bit bigger too.
|=20
| You were there?
|=20
|=20
There are days when I feel as if I were.
Mostly, I have to go by what I read.
--=20
PDQ
--
That *might* keep out the thug looters in Nawlins.
"Lee DeRaud" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 18:08:19 -0400, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>"Notan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>>> Underground would prevent *all* wind damage, but the house
>>> would have to be 110% waterproof/watertight, and have some
>>> type of above-ground ventilation system.
>>
>>House built into the side of a mountain that is above sea level. ~
>>preferably in a lesser earthquake zone.
>
> Here's a turn-key design, courtesy of Uncle Sam:
> https://www.cheyennemountain.af.mil/thedesign.htm
>
> Lee
"Notan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Notan wrote:
>>
>> Don wrote:
>> >
>> > "Notan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > news:[email protected]...
>> > > Don wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> "Notan"> wrote
>> > >> > Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>> > >> >> "Notan"> wrote in message
>> > >> >> >> Built properly, a concrete wall can stop just about anything.
>> > >> >> >> Think: Hoover Dam.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > Constant, evenly dispersed pressure.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> How long will it take a backhoe to get through it?
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >> A backhoe is a lightweight device, all things considered.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > Not.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Relative to what? There are many mechanical or structurally made
>> > >> >> 10 x
>> > >> >> or
>> > >> >> more heavier than even a big backhoe.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > My point is, it's not the material that's used, it's how
>> > >> > the structure is designed.
>> > >>
>> > >> Duh.
>> > >> Thats why I said this:
>> > >> > Built properly, a concrete wall can stop just about anything.
>> > >> Pay attention.
>> > >
>> > > If I'm not mistaken, my post was in response to Edwin's post.
>> > >
>> > > I must've missed the point at which you started speaking for him.
>> >
>> > There's lots of stuff you're missing.
>> > I'm hoping you'll catch up.
>>
>> As I've said before, I can respect the fact that you're opinionated,
>> and stand firmly for the things you think are important.
>>
>> But, you have this attitude, where anyone that disagrees with you is
>> unitelligent, uneducated, and <fill in any/all of your usual
>> descriptors>.
>> You like to portray yourself as holier-than-everyone-else. You have *the*
>> answer, while no one else comes close.
>>
>> Maybe you've always been this way, but it's only lately that I've begun
>> to see you as nothing more than a non-religious bible thumper.
>>
>> While I'm sure that you couldn't care less about my opinions (or anyone
>> else's, for that matter), you *don't* have all the answers.
>>
>> There's lots of stuff you're missing.
>> I'm hoping you'll catch up.
>
> Spell-checker turned back on... That was "unintelligent."
You mean *grammer checker*.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Chris" wrote in message
>>
>> "Swingman" wrote in message
>
>> > "Upscale" wrote in message
>> >
>> >> > How should this house be built and what should it have?
>> >>
>> >> Considering that no type of house is ever going to be absolutely safe,
>> >
>> > The basic design is already at least a few thousand years old, on more
>> > than
>> > one continent.
>> >
>> > ... pyramid.
>> >
>> > --
>>
>> Ya bit they got looted too!
>
>
> Took a thousand years, or so, though ... besides, I've got the time, and
> the
> ammo, for a brief holdout, relatively speaking.
>
> --
So a little modern pyramid in order. With up to date arms and some electric
grates would do the trick.
--
Chris
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.
"Lil' Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Don" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Lil' Dave"> wrote
>> > "Nehmo"> wrote
>> >> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>> >>
>> > Don't live there, don't build there. You're an idiot if you do.
>>
>> Then there's 1/2 a million idiots living rather well here in the target
> zone
>> of Lee County, Florida.
>> You can look at history and become smarter for it, or you can go on
>> USENET
>> and blindly swing pointed sticks.
>>
>>
>
> Cows have that too, its called herd instinct. Today's typical mindset,
> impression that it qualifiies since the herd is doing it, doesn't involve
> much higher thinking. Moo.
I can't argue with that.
I'll make sure I never own more than 1 cow at a time. ;-)
"jo4hn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Don wrote:
>> "jo4hn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Dr. Hardcrab wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Matt Whiting" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>gruhn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>I nominate this thread as the most retarded ever in the history of
>>>>>>>these groups.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Second nomination of "Prize winner?" as most retarded thread ever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I nominate you both as the most retarded posters to a thread ever.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I know you are butt what am I????
>>>>
>>>>;-]
>>>
>>>Nah. Robin's butt. Just ask Ms Hartl and Mr Lee.
>>
>>
>> OK, I know robin hartl's butt quite well but who is mr lee?
>>
>>
> ummm. Lee Valley ring a bell?
Oh My GAWD!!
And I grew up in Valley Lee!!!!
"Notan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Underground would prevent *all* wind damage, but the house
> would have to be 110% waterproof/watertight, and have some
> type of above-ground ventilation system.
House built into the side of a mountain that is above sea level. ~
preferably in a lesser earthquake zone.
"Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
> And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
> necessary.
>
> How should this house be built and what should it have?
Considering that no type of house is ever going to be absolutely safe, one
might also plan for the type of statement you want made in your afterlife.
http://www.pulse24.com/Business/Top_Story/20050909-002/page.asp
The food is expensive? Look if need be I can pack a canoe or the Kayaks and
head where ever!
Don't over estimate the fear factor, in a catastrophic event, you already
beat the system if you live. Then you have to address what and where. I'm
located in a pretty good valley that protects is from all directions because
of how it follows the river. I could flood but that would have to be enough
to flood the whole valley and since it's most narrow miles north the flood
plains will handle it there. and honestly if anything does flood the food
and gear are all sealed.
I wouldn't build a house to take a Cat 5, I'd let it go and move!!!
"Duane Bozarth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Don wrote:
> >
> > "Duane Bozarth"> wrote
> > > Don wrote:
> > >> "HMFIC-1369"> wrote
> > >> > Bottom line is 30 days! Katrina shows areas still under flood
waters,
> > >> > well
> > >> > after a week. The object is NOT rescue! I maintain 6 months food
and
> > >> > water
> > >> > in my food cellar.
> > >>
> > >> How much space does 6 months worth of food and water occupy?
> > >
> > > More significantly, how does one prevent the flooding of the cellar or
> > > the complete destruction of the entire dwelling given a Cat 5 or
Fujita
> > > 5 storm?
> >
> > Here in SW FL, home of the 4 hellraisers of 04', everything below the
10'
> > level (10' above sea level) is considered a lost cause.
> > FEMA specifically addresses these items in the building codes.
>
> Precisely my point...to do what HMFIC wants in general is a very
> difficult and expensive task. You can be prepared for ordinary events
> pretty well and make things a lot easier on yourself, but in a
> catastrophic situation things are likely to get out of hand for almost
> everybody in the affected area.
Poland? ;)
nice catch, though.
"Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "skroob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Surplus army submarine would solve all issues.
>>
>>
> For a hurricane? Last thing I would want to be in.
>
> What Army has submarines anyways.
>
>
> --
> Chris
>
> If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
> soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.
>
"Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> How should this house be built and what should it have?
A $10,000,000 budget.
"jo4hn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Don wrote:
>
>> "jo4hn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Don wrote:
>>>
>>>>"jo4hn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Dr. Hardcrab wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Matt Whiting" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>gruhn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I nominate this thread as the most retarded ever in the history of
>>>>>>>>>these groups.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Second nomination of "Prize winner?" as most retarded thread ever.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I nominate you both as the most retarded posters to a thread ever.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I know you are butt what am I????
>>>>>>
>>>>>>;-]
>>>>>
>>>>>Nah. Robin's butt. Just ask Ms Hartl and Mr Lee.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>OK, I know robin hartl's butt quite well but who is mr lee?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>ummm. Lee Valley ring a bell?
>>
>>
>> Ahhhh, ain't I the dumbass?
>> (now I'm trying to figure the connection between Robin and Mr Lee)
>> Hmmmm.....
> same first name.
jeezis.
Think I'll just quietly back out of this one due to being unqualified. ;-)
For now.
Easy.... Find a Mountain in the Rockies build a deep shaft........ Building
in New Orleans disregards your own concerns. You can't account for all the
possibilities of a Hurricane it's to independent and random, best you can do
is work from historical data. By it's own design if a storm impacted the
area, you would become an oasis, and if offering no assistance most likely
you will simply be destroyed using most readily a flammable liquid.
I see you account for your own failure? And the house would need a secure
means of transportation for escape if
necessary. I'd say the best would be a hot air balloon..................
"Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
> been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
> damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>
> You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
> wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
> before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
> impacts of debris.
>
> You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>
> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
> And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
> necessary.
>
> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
> --
> |||||||||||||||| Nehmo Sergheyev ||||||||||||||||
>
>
Nehmo wrote:
> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
> been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
> damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>
> You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
> wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
> before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
> impacts of debris.
>
> You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>
> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
> And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
> necessary.
>
> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
On the North Carolina shore - near the mouth of the Cape Fear, one fellow
built shacks on stilts. They get some fearsome hurricanes in those parts.
The stilts, he claimed, allowed the house to sway in the wind (rather than
resist and get pushed over). And the stilts kept the house from flooding in
the surge.
--
Saville
Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:
http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html
Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:
http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm
Steambending FAQ with photos:
http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm
"Chris" wrote in message
>
> "Swingman" wrote in message
> > "Upscale" wrote in message
> >
> >> > How should this house be built and what should it have?
> >>
> >> Considering that no type of house is ever going to be absolutely safe,
> >
> > The basic design is already at least a few thousand years old, on more
> > than
> > one continent.
> >
> > ... pyramid.
> >
> > --
>
> Ya bit they got looted too!
Took a thousand years, or so, though ... besides, I've got the time, and the
ammo, for a brief holdout, relatively speaking.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05
"Matt Whiting"> wrote
> Don wrote:
>> "Matt Whiting"> wrote
>>>Don wrote:
>>>>"EagleMtn"> wrote
>>>>>I dobt that a concrete wall will stop a backhoe.
>>>>
>>>>Built properly, a concrete wall can stop just about anything.
>>>>Think: Hoover Dam.
>>>
>>>Think shaped charge. :-)
>>
>> Think collateral damage.
>> Rather than try to get in the heavily reinforced front door, just
>> chainsaw a hole through the wall.
>
> I was talking about the dam. I'm not sure a chainsaw would be that
> effective... :-)
Just went looking for it and couldn't find it, but, a couple weeks ago my
brother sent me a link for a chainsaw that cuts concrete.
It might not do much regarding Hoover, but I'd still like to have one in my
stable.
In article <[email protected]>, Notan <[email protected]>
wrote:
> and have some
> type of above-ground ventilation system.
(in my best Python voice) " I would find it and fart in it!"
In article <[email protected]>,
Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 22:27:47 -0500, zxcvbob <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Chris wrote:
> >>
> >> Saw a show once about Antarctica. They came across a dead seal, looked
> >> like it died yesterday. Narrator mentioned that it had died 300 years
> >> ago.
> >> Wonder if the meat was still good?
> >>
> >
> >
> >How did the narrator know that?
> >
>
> Easy, he counted the rings. ;-)
>
I usually hang up after 3-4 rings.
In article <[email protected]>, "Chris" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Asking the "Three Little Pigs" comes to mind. That is of course if they
> are still around
Didn't one of them go to market?
In article <[email protected]>, "Chris" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Notan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> >> Underground would prevent *all* wind damage, but the house
> >> would have to be 110% waterproof/watertight, and have some
> >> type of above-ground ventilation system.
> >
> > House built into the side of a mountain that is above sea level. ~
> > preferably in a lesser earthquake zone.
> >
> >
>
> Versus the mountains that are below sea-level????????????????????
Too dangerous... subs run into them...
In article <[email protected]>,
"D. J. MCBRIDE" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> I'd drill the little fucker that went "WEE WEE WEE" all the way
> >> home...
>
> You mean you'd "pork" him?
...my sex life is none of yoink business...
In article <S7nUe.498$Hs6.48@trnddc07>,
"Dr. Hardcrab" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:J%[email protected]...
> >
> > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> In article <[email protected]>, "Chris" <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Asking the "Three Little Pigs" comes to mind. That is of course if
> >>> they
> >>> are still around
> >>
> >> Didn't one of them go to market?
> >
> > Yes, but he was looting, so it was ok.
>
> But which one do you shoot?
>
> One had roast beef and the other had nun........
I'd drill the little fucker that went "WEE WEE WEE" all the way home...
In article <[email protected]>,
Duane Bozarth <[email protected]> wrote:
> I've thought what
> folks who want to live in such places should do would be to simply build
> disposable houses and when the big one comes leave, planning from the
> beginning to simply bulldoze and start again. Be cheaper, structurally,
> albeit less convenient.
Interesting angle. You'd get to change the design every so many years.
I like the concept. Let the old one blow away.
I guess it's all in how one looks at things, eh?
"Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus
> garage on a
> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the
> water has
> been drained. You want to build so that the house would
> suffer zero
> damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as
> Katrina.
>
> You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood
> water, the
> wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind
> had subsided
> before water came in; this may not be the case in the
> future), and the
> impacts of debris.
>
> You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government
> interference.
>
> The house would have independent utilities, communication,
> and supplies.
> And the house would need a secure means of transportation
> for escape if
> necessary.
>
> How should this house be built and what should it have?
Tilt up concrete walls with rebar from slab foundation...
foundation anchored with 24" diameter deep piles at each
corner.
Flat metal storm roof under the mostly decorative pitched
roof. The storm roof would be poured concrete at 10'.. actual
ceiling in the house would be at 8' or 9'.
Glass would be tempered 1/2" glass. Steel shutters outside.
Doors would be heavy metal, tight sealing that swing out, not
in.
Generator would be propane powered (because it stores well and
doesnt cloggup the generator carb while sitting idle)...Id
have two smaller gen sets..rather than one large one. one
very small honda silent generator.
Sump in the middle of the slab, slope slab to drain 1/8" per
ft. fit a small little giant sump pump in the sump, powered
by the small generator.
Optionally: Put all this on stilts with fold down stairs.
What not to have. Bay windows facing the storm surge. or
sliding doors if you are at ground level..for views and nice
living have wide decks, enclosed with AC or open.. around the
house those will be sacrificed in a storm. Dont build 20'
below sea level. or lower than you are willing to have
pilings to compensate.
Escape: keep an aluminum boat in the garage and a motorcycle
with 150 mile range on a tank of gas.
Costs: You can make the secure core as small as want. Many
people could have paddled out on 4" thick sheets of styrofoam
available at home depot. Anyone could keep a sheet of that
around.
Phil Scott
>
> --
> |||||||||||||||| Nehmo Sergheyev ||||||||||||||||
>
>
In article <[email protected]>,
Adam Weiss <[email protected]> wrote:
>Nehmo wrote:
>> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
>> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
>> been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
>> damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>>
>> You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
>> wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
>> before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
>> impacts of debris.
>>
>> You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>>
>> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
>> And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
>> necessary.
>>
>> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>>
>
>5: Another thing to think about is plumbing. Namely, when the power
>goes out, the water will as well. I've seen and smelled a toilet that's
>been full and not flushed for 2 weeks straight; you -do not- want that
>in your house.
>
>Some auxiliary toilet, an out house even, that doesn't rely on running
>water is certainly in-order for a hurricane proof house.
>
If you have power, you can use an electric toilet..
www.incinolet.com
If not, you could use some form of camp toilet, with collection bags, and
store them in a larger drum when full.
You'll want a holding tank and filtering system for showers, etc using
recycled water. maybe some form of solar heating? You'll also want a
storage system for potable water.
Use several smaller generators that can be synced together to form a larger
one if needed. Propane/natural gas provides the best long term storage,
but diesel is easier to resupply, and can be hauled in drums, or jerrycans.
Make sure you have a stock of suitable containers to transfer fuel.
Gasoline is not a good choice for long term storage.
A storage battery/inverter system could also be used to reduce generator
run times, possibly with photovoltaics, although the survivability of
photovoltaics in the storm is highly questionable.
--
-- Welcome My Son, Welcome To The Machine --
Bob Vaughan | techie @ tantivy.net |
| P.O. Box 19792, Stanford, Ca 94309 |
-- I am Me, I am only Me, And no one else is Me, What could be simpler? --
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Don" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > I'm funny that way.
> > I'll eat veggies grown in cow shit but not human shit.
> > Its complex.....
>
> Some sewage treatment plants are making a compost as a by-product. Maybe
it
> goes through a turd sorter first.
>
It's a growth industry. Which other essential industry has an escalating
supply of materials piped in for free? What could be more essential then
boosting food production ?
"Don" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "jo4hn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Dr. Hardcrab wrote:
>>
>>> "Matt Whiting" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>>gruhn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>I nominate this thread as the most retarded ever in the history of
>>>>>>these groups.
>>>>>
>>>>>Second nomination of "Prize winner?" as most retarded thread ever.
>>>>>
>>>>I nominate you both as the most retarded posters to a thread ever.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I know you are butt what am I????
>>>
>>> ;-]
>> Nah. Robin's butt. Just ask Ms Hartl and Mr Lee.
>
> OK, I know robin hartl's butt quite well but who is mr lee?
>
I don't know who Robin is let alone her/his butt.
If it's a him, I WILL let it alone....
"PDQ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
"Goedjn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Seems to me Noah planned for a longer stay.
Also seems his structure was a bit bigger too.
You were there?
Thanks for that. Best laugh I've had all day.
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I'd drill the little fucker that went "WEE WEE WEE" all the way home...
"Duane Bozarth"> wrote
> Don wrote:
>> "HMFIC-1369"> wrote
>> > Bottom line is 30 days! Katrina shows areas still under flood waters,
>> > well
>> > after a week. The object is NOT rescue! I maintain 6 months food and
>> > water
>> > in my food cellar.
>>
>> How much space does 6 months worth of food and water occupy?
>
> More significantly, how does one prevent the flooding of the cellar or
> the complete destruction of the entire dwelling given a Cat 5 or Fujita
> 5 storm?
Here in SW FL, home of the 4 hellraisers of 04', everything below the 10'
level (10' above sea level) is considered a lost cause.
FEMA specifically addresses these items in the building codes.
"Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
> been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
> damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>
> You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
> wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
> before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
> impacts of debris.
>
> You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>
> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
> And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
> necessary.
>
> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
> --
> |||||||||||||||| Nehmo Sergheyev ||||||||||||||||
>
>
Don't live there, don't build there. You're an idiot if you do.
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Nehmo wrote:
> > How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
(snip)
> The big apartment buildings.
>
> Just build multistory buildings, and put all essential building
> utilities on the second floor or higher. Let the bottom floor have only
> easily repaired interiors and utilities. Connect the second floors
> of the buildings using a system of walkways just like in Minneapolis.
>
> You could even build the walkways open air, using the wrought iron
> balcony style popular for Mardi Gras in New Orleans. This would make
> the city a fun place to visit.
>
> Essentially this is the "house on stilts" idea but on a big enough scale
> you could house a population of 500,000 in a densely populated area.
>
> For car storage some buildings would use the lower 3 or 4 stories for
> car parks. Again, visit Minneapolis to see this sort of structure.
> You'd need fewer cars since this would be a densely populated area with
> lots of people able to walk to work.
>
> This is the future.
>
> Of course, this doesn't fit in with the real estate agent / developer
> scenaria where every American is isolated on his own lot with 2 acres of
> grass to mow every weekend. That's going to prove economically
> non-viable when fuel prices rise, anyway.
>
Some of us <like> a little isolation. Not all of us can stand to live in a
beehive, or care to live in densely populated areas. Not slamming people
that like that lifestyle, but the times I've had to live in structures like
that (ie, college dorms, big-city apartment blocks), I found it highly
irritating. I don't wanna hear when the neighbors flush, fight, or f**k, and
I don't wanna irritate the neighbors when I turn up the TV loud. I also like
sitting quietly on the back porch at dawn, trying to be still enough that
the birds will come to the feeder while I am on 'their' side of the glass.
Can't do that in a high-rise, or even in most condos. Suburbia has its
downsides of course- mowing/raking/snow shoveling being 3 of them. If I
didn't have to worry about resale, I'd live in a shack on the edge of the
woods. But you have to be well off to live like Thoreau these days.
aem sends...
On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 11:39:12 GMT, "HMFIC-1369" <[email protected]
Baa> wrote:
>Since everybody for the most part overlooked the obvious........ I'd say it
>may stand, just nothing at home upstairs!
>
>
>
>
>
>"Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
>> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
>> been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
>> damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>>
Normal houses should be able to survive a direct hit Cat 2 hurricane
(correct me if I am wrong). A direct hit from anything above that
will cause damage however strong you build it. Once there is damage
and the rainwater/floofwater gets in the inside contents that can
absorb water are toast. And the stronger and heavier your building
the more damage there will be to your house and to your neighbor's as
the parts tear off in the high wind or flood surge. You also don't
want to build a house so heavy that it looks like a prison and cost
more than one. You'll never pass the guidelines for neighbourhood
architectural conformity anyway.
So we can presume that your house will look be built like one of those
antebellum houses that makes New Orleans so charming. It should also
be a two storey house so that you will have a place of refuge in case
of flooding
If I were to rebuild what I will do is to design a house that will
have a concrete structural frame that will stand intact in a Cat 5
storm. Presumably the main panels and outlets for utility llines,
water pipes and other services will be attached to or be protected by
this concrete frame. This is so that while the service runs to the
rest of the house can be destroyed one can easily re-establish new
connections to the main panels and outlets.
Everything else of regular construction can tbe damaged, be blown or
washed away but the frame stands. That way I can easily tear down the
roof and walls and quickly rebuild without having to bulldoze the
whole structure or having to resubmit the building approvals.
A refinement to this house design will be to make the first floor
level a sacrificial part that a storm surge can wash away without
bringing the second floor with it, or damaging the structure of the
house. I saw some TV shots of a breachfront house in the Carolinas
that survived such a surge. That left the house looking like it was
built on stilits. The second floor was damaged and not worth
salvaging. But had someone taken refuge there (none) that person
would have survived. A conventionally build house would have been
totalled and killed everyone within it.
One can understand the desire to stay in and sit out the storm, mainly
to prevent looting, and perhaps to fix fixable damage on the fly
before it becomes a big one. The chances of a direct hurricane hit are
small enough for most homeowners to take this risk. The chances of a
direct hit is nonetheless there and it will seem very stupid by then
to risk life and limb for a house.
Therefore the problem should be recast as how can one stay for a less
threatening storm and yet survive the perfect storm?
The answer will be a storm-proof safe room built on top of this
concrete structure. It will probably be the size of a large bathroom
and made of steel or concrete for protection against flying debris or
tree falls. It should be capable of being buttoned down and float
upright like a boat should it be dislodged. At that level of storm
intensity there is no longer any consideration of living in it to
guard your property. All you want is to survive the perfect storm and
get the hell out, a stay of less than 48 hours.
>> You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
>> wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
>> before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
>> impacts of debris.
>>
>> You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>>
>> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
>> And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
>> necessary.
>>
>> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>>
>> --
>> |||||||||||||||| Nehmo Sergheyev ||||||||||||||||
>>
>>
>
On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 21:26:21 -0700, Mark & Juanita
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 19:14:27 GMT, "Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
>>sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
>>been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
>>damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>>
>>You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
>>wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
>>before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
>>impacts of debris.
>>
>>You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>>
>
> You had a shot up until the "unwanted government interference". There is
>nothing that can be built to stand up or resist that.
More to the point, you wouldn't be able to break ground on the house's
foundation without having to deal with it.
Lee
Four Hellraisers in 04, huh ?
How did FEMA do it these ?
What was the difference between Florida and NO ?
Was it Jeb Bush VS Kathleen Babineaux Blanco ?
--
JerryD(upstateNY)
Here in SW FL, home of the 4 hellraisers of 04', everything below the 10'
level (10' above sea level) is considered a lost cause.
FEMA specifically addresses these items in the building codes.
On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 22:10:29 GMT, "Jim-Poncin"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Notan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Matt Whiting wrote:
>>>
>>> Nehmo wrote:
>>> > Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
>>> > sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
>>> > been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
>>> > damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>>> >
>>> > You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
>>> > wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
>>> > before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
>>> > impacts of debris.
>>> >
>>> > You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>>> >
>>> > The house would have independent utilities, communication, and
>>> > supplies.
>>> > And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
>>> > necessary.
>>> >
>>> > How should this house be built and what should it have?
>>> >
>>>
>>> I'd build it using reinforced concrete with metal shutters to close over
>>> the windows, it's own 30 day water supply and enough fuel to power a
>>> backup generator for that same amount of time, and I'd build it on
>>> columns at least 20' tall above the ground, or whatever the storm surge
>>> level from a cat 5 storm is expected to be in that area.
>>
>> And, while building it off the ground, to get out of harm's way of the
>> water,
>> aren't you exposing it to more potential wind damage?
>
>Yes, and if subjected to heavy wave action it would probably fail. Cat 3
>Katrina tore up a lot of heavy duty structures. But even before those
>considerations it would cost way too much and would not pass residential
>codes because it would be an eyesore.
> A realistic house would have to be one at ground level that could
>survive immersion. I think that means a heavy stone/cement igloo shaped
>structure.
>
>
>
iisn't new orleans on a sand bar? make it too heavy and it will just
sink when the ground gets saturated. a bunch of buildings did that on
sand fill in san francisco during one of the big earthquakes.
"jo4hn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Don wrote:
>> "jo4hn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Dr. Hardcrab wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Matt Whiting" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>gruhn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>I nominate this thread as the most retarded ever in the history of
>>>>>>>these groups.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Second nomination of "Prize winner?" as most retarded thread ever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I nominate you both as the most retarded posters to a thread ever.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I know you are butt what am I????
>>>>
>>>>;-]
>>>
>>>Nah. Robin's butt. Just ask Ms Hartl and Mr Lee.
>>
>>
>> OK, I know robin hartl's butt quite well but who is mr lee?
>>
>>
> ummm. Lee Valley ring a bell?
Ahhhh, ain't I the dumbass?
(now I'm trying to figure the connection between Robin and Mr Lee)
Hmmmm.....
Sorry, unsnipped on purpose...
On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 19:25:22 -0700, jo4hn <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Don wrote:
>
>> "jo4hn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Don wrote:
>>>
>>>>"jo4hn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Dr. Hardcrab wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Matt Whiting" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>gruhn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I nominate this thread as the most retarded ever in the history of
>>>>>>>>>these groups.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Second nomination of "Prize winner?" as most retarded thread ever.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I nominate you both as the most retarded posters to a thread ever.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I know you are butt what am I????
>>>>>>
>>>>>>;-]
>>>>>
>>>>>Nah. Robin's butt. Just ask Ms Hartl and Mr Lee.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>OK, I know robin hartl's butt quite well but who is mr lee?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>ummm. Lee Valley ring a bell?
>>
>>
>> Ahhhh, ain't I the dumbass?
>> (now I'm trying to figure the connection between Robin and Mr Lee)
>> Hmmmm.....
>>
>>
>same first name.
Now I have to nominate this thread as the new prize winner.
Nehmo wrote:
> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
> been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
> damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>
> You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
> wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
> before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
> impacts of debris.
>
> You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>
> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and
> supplies. And the house would need a secure means of transportation
> for escape if necessary.
>
> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
>|||||||||||||||| Nehmo Sergheyev ||||||||||||||||
Easy answer. Just build it in Antarctica. It has not had a hurricane
in millions of years.
--
Joseph Meehan
Dia duit
W Canaday (in [email protected]) said:
<snip>
| Carry enough food to serve as an ark for those on the outside for a
| week with a one-way door to ration it out.
If it's to be an ark, then stretch that week to forty days (to allow
FEMA adequate time for response). Add a helipad for Coast Guard
evacuation of the hangers-on.
Caution: Federal law prohibits direct discharge of raw sewage into
coastal waters. Your ark may require sanitation systems of heroic
proportion.
--
Morris Dovey
"Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> How should this house be built and what should it have?
Underground?
"skroob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Surplus army submarine would solve all issues.
>
>
For a hurricane? Last thing I would want to be in.
What Army has submarines anyways.
--
Chris
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.
Don wrote:
> "jo4hn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Don wrote:
>>
>>>"jo4hn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Dr. Hardcrab wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Matt Whiting" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>gruhn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I nominate this thread as the most retarded ever in the history of
>>>>>>>>these groups.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Second nomination of "Prize winner?" as most retarded thread ever.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I nominate you both as the most retarded posters to a thread ever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I know you are butt what am I????
>>>>>
>>>>>;-]
>>>>
>>>>Nah. Robin's butt. Just ask Ms Hartl and Mr Lee.
>>>
>>>
>>>OK, I know robin hartl's butt quite well but who is mr lee?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>ummm. Lee Valley ring a bell?
>
>
> Ahhhh, ain't I the dumbass?
> (now I'm trying to figure the connection between Robin and Mr Lee)
> Hmmmm.....
>
>
same first name.
Surplus army submarine would solve all issues.
"Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
> been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
> damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>
> You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
> wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
> before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
> impacts of debris.
>
> You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>
> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
> And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
> necessary.
>
> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
> --
> |||||||||||||||| Nehmo Sergheyev ||||||||||||||||
>
>
>>>Why have a foundation?
>>
>> It makes it easier to figure out where to park
>> the house, it keeps the house from sinking . . .
>
>Well, if you built a concrete boat with a flat bottom.....
>
Possible, but I'd think it would be easier, cheaper,
and less of a shock to the local code inspector if
you build a concrete cellar... no this is N'Orleans,
so there is no cellar.. I'm still voting for
a concrete perimeter foundation, 12" above grade,
with a 24" sealed "barge" platform as the ground floor.
that gives you a displacement of 2cuft per square-foot
or area, which means a total building+occupancy
weight of around 120psf.. so you're limited to
heavy 1-story buildings, or light 2-story ones.
When you outgrow the house, though, you can jack the
whole thing up 10', and build a (floodable) ground
floor underneath, on the existing footings.
>Put a composting toilet on the second floor.
>
>And add a rooftop vegetable garden.
>And a cistern to catch rain water.
>Life could be sustained indefinitely.
Only if you've got a really big freaking roof.
What you really want is to replace the attic and
roof with a greenhouse, so as to control pests
and weather. But the people/sqft ratio is
really low, until you start investing in some
serious intensive gardening equipment.
--Goedjn
>You know because my girlfirend lives in Monroe, LA she deserves nothing
>less than a 15,000 square foor mansion. See my new post asking about
>the Richardsonian Romanesque style house since my dream is to build her
>(&me) a huge tornado proof mansion if I ever become rich enough. But
>all of your ideas are good though.
Cat-5 Hurricane winds start at 155mph.
Tornados start at around 200mph, and
a Cat-5 tornado has wind speeds in excess of 300mph.
Wind loads appear to be calculated according to
the formula PSF=(mph^2)/250, or thereabouts.
So for a worst-case hurricane, you have to design
for side-loads (and uplift) of 160PSF, whereas
for tornadoes, its around 360PSF. For comparison,
the floor of your house is typically designed
for around 60PSF. (Of course the limit for
the floor is acceptable deflection, rather than
yield strength, so if you built your house so that
any face could be the floor, you'd probably be
OK in the hurricane.)
The good news is, if you can manage this,
floodwaters should be trivial, at least in
terms of mechanical damage.
"Lil' Dave"> wrote
> "Nehmo"> wrote
>> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>>
> Don't live there, don't build there. You're an idiot if you do.
Then there's 1/2 a million idiots living rather well here in the target zone
of Lee County, Florida.
You can look at history and become smarter for it, or you can go on USENET
and blindly swing pointed sticks.
On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 22:27:47 -0500, zxcvbob <[email protected]> wrote:
>Chris wrote:
>>
>> Saw a show once about Antarctica. They came across a dead seal, looked
>> like it died yesterday. Narrator mentioned that it had died 300 years ago.
>> Wonder if the meat was still good?
>>
>
>
>How did the narrator know that?
>
Easy, he counted the rings. ;-)
>-Bob
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 00:18:18 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"PDQ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>"Goedjn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>Seems to me Noah planned for a longer stay.
>Also seems his structure was a bit bigger too.
>
>You were there?
>
I think he read about it somewhere. I believe that story is in a book
that's an anthology of sorts. ;)
On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 19:14:27 GMT, "Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote:
<snipped>
>How should this house be built and what should it have?
A competent architect, good general contractor and large credit line.
Mark
"Matt Whiting"> wrote
> Don wrote:
>> "EagleMtn"> wrote
>>
>>>I dobt that a concrete wall will stop a backhoe.
>>
>> Built properly, a concrete wall can stop just about anything.
>> Think: Hoover Dam.
>
> Think shaped charge. :-)
Think collateral damage.
Rather than try to get in the heavily reinforced front door, just chainsaw a
hole through the wall.
"Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
> been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
> damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
> And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
> necessary.
>
> How should this house be built and what should it have?
Some of the codes for building at the shores take some of this into
consideration already. Most have to be raised about eight feet and no
utilities below that.
I'd probably use ICF construction. www.polysteel.com or
www.integraspec.com While the outside may have superficial damage, the
walls would not collapse. Shutters for the windows.
Plenty of supplies on hand, but I'd also have some sort of water
filtration/purification system. Generator, of course, but I'm now sure that
the best fuel would be. You'd want at least a two week fuel supply and
something easily replenished if longer term is needed.
On 12-Sep-2005, "Don" <[email protected]> wrote:
> FEMA specifically addresses these items in the building codes.
FEMA sets building codes?
Mike
Saab Guy wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 20:54:44 GMT
> Matt Whiting <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Nehmo wrote:
>>
>>>Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
>>>sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
>>>been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
>>>damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>>>
>>>You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
>>>wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
>>>before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
>>>impacts of debris.
>>>
>>>You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>>>
>>>The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
>>>And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
>>>necessary.
>>>
>>>How should this house be built and what should it have?
>>>
>>
>>I'd build it using reinforced concrete with metal shutters to close over
>>the windows, it's own 30 day water supply and enough fuel to power a
>>backup generator for that same amount of time, and I'd build it on
>>columns at least 20' tall above the ground, or whatever the storm surge
>>level from a cat 5 storm is expected to be in that area.
>>
>>Matt
>
>
>
> This sounds possible though, not out of the question.
>
> -
It is absolutely possible, but I'm not sure it is economically feasible.
I guess if you REALLY want to live in a below sea level area, it might
be worth it to you.
Matt
On 10-Sep-2005, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote:
> How long will it take a backhoe to get through it?
In the case of the HA, their primary goal was to slow down,
not necessarily stop the cops. The large concrete blocks
in front of the concrete wall keep a backhoe at a significant
distance too. All in all, the design looks like a typical
US embassy or consulate.
Mike
"SwampBug" wrote in message
>>I am in SW Louisiana and Katrina did not affect us at all. I am about 35
miles, as the crow flies, from the Gulf coast and at a 26 ft elevation. I
live in a monolithic dome on the order of the site I posted and hurricane
winds on this dome would be like you blowing on your truck. I may still
loose windows and possibly one door but that can be addressed also. My
philosophy, as a results of living thru many hurricanes including Audrey in
'57 which came in right on top of us, is "You can't stop the wind from
blowing, but you can decide what gets broke!".<<
Good to hear that you fared well ... keep it up, cher!
Eunice born and bred ...
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05
Nehmo wrote:
> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
> been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
> damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>
> You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
> wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
> before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
> impacts of debris.
>
> You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>
> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
> And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
> necessary.
>
> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
I'd build it using reinforced concrete with metal shutters to close over
the windows, it's own 30 day water supply and enough fuel to power a
backup generator for that same amount of time, and I'd build it on
columns at least 20' tall above the ground, or whatever the storm surge
level from a cat 5 storm is expected to be in that area.
Matt
Phil Scott wrote:
> "Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus
>>garage on a
>>sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the
>>water has
>>been drained. You want to build so that the house would
>>suffer zero
>>damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as
>>Katrina.
>>
>>You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood
>>water, the
>>wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind
>>had subsided
>>before water came in; this may not be the case in the
>>future), and the
>>impacts of debris.
>>
>>You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government
>>interference.
>>
>>The house would have independent utilities, communication,
>>and supplies.
>>And the house would need a secure means of transportation
>>for escape if
>>necessary.
>>
>>How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
>
>
> Tilt up concrete walls with rebar from slab foundation...
> foundation anchored with 24" diameter deep piles at each
> corner.
>
> Flat metal storm roof under the mostly decorative pitched
> roof. The storm roof would be poured concrete at 10'.. actual
> ceiling in the house would be at 8' or 9'.
>
> Glass would be tempered 1/2" glass. Steel shutters outside.
>
> Doors would be heavy metal, tight sealing that swing out, not
> in.
>
>
> Generator would be propane powered (because it stores well and
> doesnt cloggup the generator carb while sitting idle)...Id
> have two smaller gen sets..rather than one large one. one
> very small honda silent generator.
>
> Sump in the middle of the slab, slope slab to drain 1/8" per
> ft. fit a small little giant sump pump in the sump, powered
> by the small generator.
>
> Optionally: Put all this on stilts with fold down stairs.
>
> What not to have. Bay windows facing the storm surge. or
> sliding doors if you are at ground level..for views and nice
> living have wide decks, enclosed with AC or open.. around the
> house those will be sacrificed in a storm. Dont build 20'
> below sea level. or lower than you are willing to have
> pilings to compensate.
>
>
> Escape: keep an aluminum boat in the garage and a motorcycle
> with 150 mile range on a tank of gas.
>
> Costs: You can make the secure core as small as want. Many
> people could have paddled out on 4" thick sheets of styrofoam
> available at home depot. Anyone could keep a sheet of that
> around.
>
> Phil Scott
>
>
>
>
>
>>--
>>|||||||||||||||| Nehmo Sergheyev ||||||||||||||||
>>
>>
>
>
>
swap the tempered glass for bullet-proof. I've broken tempered glass
patio doors. It's not that hard.
"Notan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Don wrote:
>>
>> "Notan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > Notan wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Don wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > "Notan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >> > news:[email protected]...
>> >> > > Don wrote:
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> "Notan"> wrote
>> >> > >> > Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>> >> > >> >> "Notan"> wrote in message
>> >> > >> >> >> Built properly, a concrete wall can stop just about
>> >> > >> >> >> anything.
>> >> > >> >> >> Think: Hoover Dam.
>> >> > >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> > Constant, evenly dispersed pressure.
>> >> > >> >>
>> >> > >> >> How long will it take a backhoe to get through it?
>> >> > >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >> A backhoe is a lightweight device, all things considered.
>> >> > >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> > Not.
>> >> > >> >>
>> >> > >> >> Relative to what? There are many mechanical or structurally
>> >> > >> >> made
>> >> > >> >> 10 x
>> >> > >> >> or
>> >> > >> >> more heavier than even a big backhoe.
>> >> > >> >
>> >> > >> > My point is, it's not the material that's used, it's how
>> >> > >> > the structure is designed.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Duh.
>> >> > >> Thats why I said this:
>> >> > >> > Built properly, a concrete wall can stop just about anything.
>> >> > >> Pay attention.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > If I'm not mistaken, my post was in response to Edwin's post.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I must've missed the point at which you started speaking for him.
>> >> >
>> >> > There's lots of stuff you're missing.
>> >> > I'm hoping you'll catch up.
>> >>
>> >> As I've said before, I can respect the fact that you're opinionated,
>> >> and stand firmly for the things you think are important.
>> >>
>> >> But, you have this attitude, where anyone that disagrees with you is
>> >> unitelligent, uneducated, and <fill in any/all of your usual
>> >> descriptors>.
>> >> You like to portray yourself as holier-than-everyone-else. You have
>> >> *the*
>> >> answer, while no one else comes close.
>> >>
>> >> Maybe you've always been this way, but it's only lately that I've
>> >> begun
>> >> to see you as nothing more than a non-religious bible thumper.
>> >>
>> >> While I'm sure that you couldn't care less about my opinions (or
>> >> anyone
>> >> else's, for that matter), you *don't* have all the answers.
>> >>
>> >> There's lots of stuff you're missing.
>> >> I'm hoping you'll catch up.
>> >
>> > Spell-checker turned back on... That was "unintelligent."
>>
>> You mean *grammer checker*.
>
> No, spell-checker.
yawn
> And, that's exactly what I'm talking about... You always *think* you
> know better.
>
> I *misspelled* a word, which a spell-checker would have caught.
>
> A *grammar checker* (By the way, you should've used your *spell checker*
> on that one! <g>) would have told me if my sentence was grammatically
> incorrect.
touche'
"Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
> been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
> damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>
> You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
> wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
> before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
> impacts of debris.
>
> You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>
> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
> And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
> necessary.
>
> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
> --
> |||||||||||||||| Nehmo Sergheyev ||||||||||||||||
>
>
Asking the "Three Little Pigs" comes to mind. That is of course if they
are still around.
--
Chris
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.
robo hippy wrote:
> A forgotten tecnique for lumber framing and putting on plywood and
> waferboard is to toe nail. Nails driven straight into end grain don't
> hold diddly. When you angle all stud wall nails, the holding power is
> much greater. The same with sheeting. If all of the nails are driven in
> at the same angle, you can knock it out with your hands, and the nails
> will still be in the sheet. When the nails are driven in at opposing
> angles, the only way to get a sheet back off is to destroy the sheet
> because the nails will pull through the sheet, and not come off with
> it.
> robo hippy
>
Except that this is largely irrelevant when it comes to installing
sheathing. The main force that sheathing needs to resist is shear, not
withdrawal. And nailing at an angle can reduce the ability to resist
shear, not increase it.
Matt
"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 19:14:27 GMT, "Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
> Best would be to build it in Britain, not America. (after all, "in
> Hertford, Hereford and Hampshire hurricanes hardly ever happen")
>
> Second best would be to build it in America, in the way the British have
> always, and still do, build perfectly average houses. They're not great
> in earthquakes and in hurricanes the roof comes off (just look at
> Birmingham a month or two back) but the expensive structure stays intact
> and doesn't crush the inhabitants.
>
> If you're worried about flooding, ask the Netherlanders, who have done
> this stuff quietly and competently for centuries.
And what percentage of the British population actually own homes?
"Notan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>>
>> Nehmo wrote:
>> > Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
>> > sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
>> > been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
>> > damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>> >
>> > You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
>> > wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
>> > before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
>> > impacts of debris.
>> >
>> > You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>> >
>> > The house would have independent utilities, communication, and
>> > supplies.
>> > And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
>> > necessary.
>> >
>> > How should this house be built and what should it have?
>> >
>>
>> I'd build it using reinforced concrete with metal shutters to close over
>> the windows, it's own 30 day water supply and enough fuel to power a
>> backup generator for that same amount of time, and I'd build it on
>> columns at least 20' tall above the ground, or whatever the storm surge
>> level from a cat 5 storm is expected to be in that area.
>
> And, while building it off the ground, to get out of harm's way of the
> water,
> aren't you exposing it to more potential wind damage?
Yes, and if subjected to heavy wave action it would probably fail. Cat 3
Katrina tore up a lot of heavy duty structures. But even before those
considerations it would cost way too much and would not pass residential
codes because it would be an eyesore.
A realistic house would have to be one at ground level that could
survive immersion. I think that means a heavy stone/cement igloo shaped
structure.
On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 23:30:52 -0400, Chris wrote:
>> How did the narrator know that?
>>
>> -Bob
>
> Not sure, I suppose you could ask him. As I remember he was as scientist
> stationed down there. Good enough for me. My guess would be carbon dating.
IIRC, carbon dating isn't useful for such a short time span. Most likely
it was dated by its location in a snowbank or some similar natural /
quantifiable phenomenon.
How the the reporter know this? Easy. It's what his editor told him to say.
On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 21:29:53 +0000, Saab Guy wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 15:28:38 -0600
> Notan <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Matt Whiting wrote:
>> >
>> > Nehmo wrote:
>> > > Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on
>> > > a sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the
>> > > water has been drained. You want to build so that the house would
>> > > suffer zero damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as
>> > > Katrina.
>> > >
>> > > You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
>> > > wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had
>> > > subsided before water came in; this may not be the case in the
>> > > future), and the impacts of debris.
>> > >
>> > > You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government
>> > > interference.
>> > >
>> > > The house would have independent utilities, communication, and
>> > > supplies. And the house would need a secure means of transportation
>> > > for escape if necessary.
>> > >
>> > > How should this house be built and what should it have?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > I'd build it using reinforced concrete with metal shutters to close
>> > over the windows, it's own 30 day water supply and enough fuel to
>> > power a backup generator for that same amount of time, and I'd build
>> > it on columns at least 20' tall above the ground, or whatever the
>> > storm surge level from a cat 5 storm is expected to be in that area.
>>
>> And, while building it off the ground, to get out of harm's way of the
>> water, aren't you exposing it to more potential wind damage?
>>
>> Notan
>
>
> So let's do a FULL recap of this house. I am going to save this for
> future use and reference.
>
> Let's fill in the blanks and develope this and have it stand the test of
> back-and-forth until we ALL agree on the resultant.
>
> Let's also be realistic, but don't limit yourself. Let's be practical
> but without any sacrifice on anything for the sake of safety & security
> most importantly.
>
> HURRICANE-HOUSE
> --------------------
>
> FUTURE BUILDING SITE: N.O.
>
> FOUNDATION SYSTEM: ? Steel Pilings driven deep
>
> FLOOR SYSTEM: ? Flotation system. Building may float free of / detach
> from pilings if flooding exceeds predictions.
>
> WALL SYSTEM: ? re-bar reinforced plastcrete
>
> ROOF SYSTEM: ? same as walls with standard shingles glued on for
> appearance conformity. High winds should push slightly downward.
> DOORS & WINDOWS: ? Standard windows & doors with retractable shutters
> (manual crank) Shutters to be waterproof to at least the overall heighth
> of the building.
> MOISTURE & THERMAL PROTECTION: ? insulated outer skin, sealed or one
> piece
>
> FORCE PROTECTION: ? 1) shape 2) materials
>
> MECHANICAL SYSTEMS: ? self-sufficient off-grid for 10 days without
> degeration of services, 30 days with rationing
>
> ELECTRICAL SYSTEMS: ? on grids, standard. off grid battery backup /
> generator (floats with building)
Additionally, some means of steerage / propulsion when floating. Fish
traps while afloat. Ability to remain floating and maintain steerageway
while covered with humans clinging to the outside. Possibly embed rebar
handles for same to hold onto in the roof.
Carry enough food to serve as an ark for those on the outside for a week
with a one-way door to ration it out.
The idea is to keep the owner relatively safe while keeping in mind that
if it breaks free of its pilings, it will likely be the largest thing
afloat for miles.
Jes' my 'first approximation' thoughts on the matter. High winds argue for
a rounded shape. High waters argue for flotability. Loss of external
services argues for self-containment following the incident. Inability to
predict the actual threat argues against anchoring it permenently. Any
storm large enough to dislodge it argues for secondary use as a life boat.
Personal security argues for waterproof and force (crowbar) resistant
shutters under manual control.
I would also argue for stocking a Bible and becoming thoroughly familiar
with it beforehand because there are some things that simply can't be
engineered against. Ever. Like the earthquake the day of the storm that
wedges the pilings too tight for the structure to float free and the 80
foot tsunami that renders the shutters useless. Or the aftermath of the
storm when you realize that you are bobbing in a two inch thick layer of
kerosene ... and surrounded by flames.
Having a house that is ONLY hurricane proof ONLY works if the disaster
that strikes looks a lot like a hurricane. Not much use against falling
Stealth bombers or bulldozers under a court order. Or pestilence. Or food
shortages.
"Amun" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:%[email protected]...
>
> "Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
>> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
>> been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
>> damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>>
>> You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
>> wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
>> before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
>> impacts of debris.
>>
>> You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>>
>> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
>> And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
>> necessary.
>>
>> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>>
>> --
>> |||||||||||||||| Nehmo Sergheyev ||||||||||||||||
>>
>>
>
>
>
> 100% Hurricane Proof homes here.
>
> www.winnebagoind.com
>
> Just add a good weather-radio and make sure the tank is always full.
>
> AMUN
I was going to suggest a trailer hitch.
Charlie
>
On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 21:27:49 -0400, "PDQ" <[email protected]> wrote:
>--
>"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>|
>| "PDQ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>| news:[email protected]...
>| "Goedjn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>| news:[email protected]...
>|
>| Seems to me Noah planned for a longer stay.
>| Also seems his structure was a bit bigger too.
>|
>| You were there?
>|
>|
>
>There are days when I feel as if I were.
>
>Mostly, I have to go by what I read.
>
>--
>PDQ
well, here... read this:
http://www.venganza.org/
"The length of the Ark shall be 300 cubits, the breadth of it 50 cubits, and
the height of it 30 cubits. A window shall thou make to the Ark and in a
cubit shalt thou finish it above." - God
"Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
> sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
> been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
> damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>
> You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
> wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
> before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
> impacts of debris.
>
> You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>
> The house would have independent utilities, communication, and supplies.
> And the house would need a secure means of transportation for escape if
> necessary.
>
> How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
> --
> |||||||||||||||| Nehmo Sergheyev ||||||||||||||||
>
>
"Notan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Don wrote:
>>
>> "Matt Whiting"> wrote
>> > Don wrote:
>> >> "Matt Whiting"> wrote
>> >>>Don wrote:
>> >>>>"EagleMtn"> wrote
>> >>>>>I dobt that a concrete wall will stop a backhoe.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Built properly, a concrete wall can stop just about anything.
>> >>>>Think: Hoover Dam.
>> >>>
>> >>>Think shaped charge. :-)
>> >>
>> >> Think collateral damage.
>> >> Rather than try to get in the heavily reinforced front door, just
>> >> chainsaw a hole through the wall.
>> >
>> > I was talking about the dam. I'm not sure a chainsaw would be that
>> > effective... :-)
>>
>> Just went looking for it and couldn't find it, but, a couple weeks ago my
>> brother sent me a link for a chainsaw that cuts concrete.
>> It might not do much regarding Hoover, but I'd still like to have one in
>> my
>> stable.
>
> While I've never heard of a concrete chainsaw, they *do* make portable
> concrete circular saws.
Yeah, my brother has one of those, we used it for score cutting my driveway,
and I have blades for cutting concrete/masonry for my saws.
You have to wear goggles and an aspirator, lots of smoke.
http://www.jimslimstools.com/detail.aspx?ID=1734
http://www.cessco.us/concrete_chainsaws.html
Pine Island born , , ,<g>
merci mon ami
--=20
SwampBug
- - - - - - - - - - - -
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
"SwampBug" wrote in message
>>I am in SW Louisiana and Katrina did not affect us at all. I am about =
35
miles, as the crow flies, from the Gulf coast and at a 26 ft elevation. =
I
live in a monolithic dome on the order of the site I posted and =
hurricane
winds on this dome would be like you blowing on your truck. I may still
loose windows and possibly one door but that can be addressed also. My
philosophy, as a results of living thru many hurricanes including Audrey =
in
'57 which came in right on top of us, is "You can't stop the wind from
blowing, but you can decide what gets broke!".<<
Good to hear that you fared well ... keep it up, cher!
Eunice born and bred ...
--=20
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05
>
>The answer will be a storm-proof safe room built on top of this
>concrete structure. It will probably be the size of a large bathroom
>and made of steel or concrete for protection against flying debris or
>tree falls. It should be capable of being buttoned down and float
>upright like a boat should it be dislodged. At that level of storm
>intensity there is no longer any consideration of living in it to
>guard your property. All you want is to survive the perfect storm and
>get the hell out, a stay of less than 48 hours.
Disagreement: If you're going to this length, you should use a more
reasonable figure for time-to-rescue of 7 days. 72 hours
is the figure used for people who are trying to do the best
they can with what's available. 72 hours is what you should
keep in the trunk of your car.
On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 19:14:27 GMT, "Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote:
[asinine proposition snipped]
I nominate this thread as the most retarded ever in the history of
these groups.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
"Mark & Juanita"> wrote
> "Nehmo"> wrote:
>>Let's say you're building a 1,500 square foot house plus garage on a
>>sufficiently sized lot from scratch in New Orleans after the water has
>>been drained. You want to build so that the house would suffer zero
>>damage should it endure a hurricane of similar size as Katrina.
>>
>>You would have to build to survive the wind, the flood water, the
>>wind-caused waves in the water (In Katrina-NOLA, the wind had subsided
>>before water came in; this may not be the case in the future), and the
>>impacts of debris.
>>
>>You need to anticipate looters and unwanted government interference.
>
> You had a shot up until the "unwanted government interference". There is
> nothing that can be built to stand up or resist that.
So true.
<wry grin>
CWatters wrote:
> "Nehmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
>
>>How should this house be built and what should it have?
>
>
> Underground?
>
>
Yep, that would be a great place to be when the flood waters came in.
Unless, of course, your underground house is a buried submarine. :-)
Matt
>> Bottom line is 30 days! Katrina shows areas still under flood waters, well
>> after a week. The object is NOT rescue! I maintain 6 months food and water
>> in my food cellar.
>
>How much space does 6 months worth of food and water occupy?
Less than 50 cubic feet, but not much less.
If you stored it under the bed,
the bed would have to be 32" high, plus the mattress.
It would also weigh in excess of one US statute ton,
so you might want to spread it around a bit.
(Reality check:
Dinty Moore Beef stew is 222 calories/cup,
so you need 10 cups/day. Since it comes in cans,
there's wasted space to the tune of an extra 25%
so the storage volume is 12.5 cups/day or
around 10 days/cubic foot, for food.
Counting the wasted space, water is around
7 gallons/cubic foot. with around, .4cuft
wasted space.
Figure 2000 calories/day, and 1 gallon of water.)
Use the space between cans and bottles for
vitamin supplements, other drugs, variety-food)
Each of your 1,800 cups of stew weighs
236 grams, or around 1/2 a pound,
call it 1,000 pounds of stew and can.
Each of your 180 gallons of water
weighs 8 1/3 pounds or 1500 pounds,
total.)
Note that you can probably get your food
volume/weight down if you work at it,
but most of the really lightweight/small
packaged foods depend on having a ready
supply of water to re-constitute.
Rumor has it that eating a dehydrated
ration without rehydrating it FIRST is really,
really bad. As in, may well kill you bad.
--Goedjn
"Notan"> wrote
> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>> "Notan"> wrote in message
>> >> Built properly, a concrete wall can stop just about anything.
>> >> Think: Hoover Dam.
>> >
>> > Constant, evenly dispersed pressure.
>>
>> How long will it take a backhoe to get through it?
>> >
>> >> A backhoe is a lightweight device, all things considered.
>> >
>> > Not.
>>
>> Relative to what? There are many mechanical or structurally made 10 x or
>> more heavier than even a big backhoe.
>
> My point is, it's not the material that's used, it's how
> the structure is designed.
Duh.
Thats why I said this:
> Built properly, a concrete wall can stop just about anything.
Pay attention.
"jo4hn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dr. Hardcrab wrote:
>
>> "Matt Whiting" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>gruhn wrote:
>>>
>>>>>I nominate this thread as the most retarded ever in the history of
>>>>>these groups.
>>>>
>>>>Second nomination of "Prize winner?" as most retarded thread ever.
>>>>
>>>I nominate you both as the most retarded posters to a thread ever.
>>>
>>
>> I know you are butt what am I????
>>
>> ;-]
> Nah. Robin's butt. Just ask Ms Hartl and Mr Lee.
OK, I know robin hartl's butt quite well but who is mr lee?
"Goedjn"> wrote
> Dinty Moore Beef stew is 222 calories/cup,
> so you need 10 cups/day.
Jeez, 10 cups a day?
I'd be as big as a whale if I ate all that stuff! LOL
During the 5 days of Charley last year I ate very little, maybe 2 or 3 cold
chicken breasts and 3 or 4 cold sandwiches.
But I was drinking about 4 gallons of water a day, at least.
(I rigged a 220v jumper to my generator to charge the well equipment each
day. Our aerator holds 80 gallons)
The thing is, we were waiting on the edge of our seats for the power to come
back on the whole time. We were hearing on the radio the power was coming
back on in various parts of the city each day and it took a full 5 days to
restore ours. So the whole time we were sort of in turmoil, not knowing what
was going on. If we knew we'd be without power for a month or more we would
have done things differently. We had one generator but we had to use it
sparingly cause we couldn't get fuel. For a long term endeavor I'd probably
get a 2nd generator and then drive long distance to get some serious
quantities of fuel. Also, I didn't take the storm warning too seriously
(Charley made a last minute change of course and headed straight for us 3
hours prior to impact) so I was cash poor at the time and with the power out
all over the city I couldn't access any funds. The stores that were open
were accepting cash only as their equipment was down. Next time I'll have at
least $1000 cash on me.
The very center of Charley passed about 4 miles to the west of us, right up
through the Pine Island Sound and then straight up the Peace River to Punta
Gorda / Port Charlotte, so we were right on the worst edge. And yes, it does
sound like what you'd imagine a freight train sounds like. You can't really
appreciate the magnitude of 150mph wind and 300 mph microbursts by watching
it on TV, it has to be felt in person. Its a little overwhelming to realize
the very earth is attempting to kill you. LOL
"Goedjn"> wrote
>
>>Why have a foundation?
>
> It makes it easier to figure out where to park
> the house, it keeps the house from sinking
> wandering around during normal weather, it keeps the
> wooden bits away from the wood-eating dirt, and it
> gives you a fixed point to which you can
> anchor your utilities.
Well, if you built a concrete boat with a flat bottom.....
"Adam Weiss"> wrote
> I saw video today of a scuffle between cops and evacuees. One of the cops
> completely ignored his cohorts efforts to get a handle on the situation,
> and instead approached the camera-man - yelling "TURN OFF THE CAMERA!
> TURN OFF THE CAMERA NOW!"
As the cop was armed, and was approaching the cameraman with a threatening
tone, he deserved to be shot right in the face.
Wouldn't his wife and kids like that?
Why would a grown man (the cop) act that way?
"Adam Weiss"> wrote
> Don wrote:
>> "Adam Weiss"> wrote
>>
>>>Put a composting toilet on the second floor.
>>>And add a rooftop vegetable garden.
>>
>>
>> I hope you're not going to connect the two!
> Why not? A composting toilet works like a compost pile. Basically it
> turns waste into nutrient-rich topsoil.
I'm funny that way.
I'll eat veggies grown in cow shit but not human shit.
Its complex.....