Just Three

"Ray S. & Nayda Katzaman" wrote:

> If you were to build a garage shop, what would be the three (3) shop
> tools - like table saws, etc. - that you would absolutely need to
have
> (not including hand tools, manual or electric)?

1) Table Saw
2) Bench Top Planer
3) Bench Top Jointer (An old one with a belt drive)
4) 4x8 Table to serve as a runout table for the saw, and/or table for
planer and jointer.

Lew

"B A R R Y" wrote:

| For solid wood tops, I like shop-made wooden blocks that mate with
| grooves in the back of the apron, or metal "zee" fasteners in
similar
| apron grooves.

I just made some clips laminating some scrap 1/4 Birch ply pieces
together.

Lew

Jack Stein wrote:

> DAClark wrote:
>
> I was arguing in favor of the shaper for its woodworking
>> purposes.
>
... snip
> Agreed but not sure what learning you need for a shaper vs router table?
> Actually, I think a shaper is easier to use and does a better job with
> less burning issues and smoother cutting but really, not much different
> stuff to be learned.
>

... and a whole bunch quieter. Even with hearing protection, that's
something to be considered.

Thus far, I have found the Grizzly shaper cutters to be adequate for home
shop use and readily affordable.


--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>If you were to build a garage shop, what would be the three (3) shop
>tools - like table saws, etc. - that you would absolutely need to have
>(not including hand tools, manual or electric)? I need to work on my
>small garage and am undecided as to what it is that I really need.
>Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated.

Table saw, jointer, and band saw would be at the top of my list for stationary
equipment. Add a "portable" planer (as portable as anything weighing 80-100
pounds can be), a router table, and a compound miter saw, and you're in pretty
good shape.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Jay Pique wrote:
>
> How do you attach table tops to the apron?
> JP

For solid wood tops, I like shop-made wooden blocks that mate with
grooves in the back of the apron, or metal "zee" fasteners in similar
apron grooves.

Plywood or composite tops can be screwed dead tight with pocket screws
or corner blocks, as they won't move.

On Nov 18, 3:10 pm, "woodstuff" wrote:

> Disagree with your suggesting that a beginner...

I don't disagree with you, if it is a safety issue you refer to...but
the question was about equipment, not the qualification of the
operator.
The operation of the shaper is a learning process that hasn't
published much in the way of valid procedural literature in the last
thirty or forty years, so a beginner would want to research the
subject and seek experienced advice.
Shaper works have been displaced by other technologies, both machine
and value-added materials...but the best way to shape wood for
structure and aesthetics is the shaper. If you want to build serious
cabinet and furniture projects, you have to have a shaper, otherwise
you are just faking it. And why fake it, if you can do it right from
the beginning...?
And properly operated, the shaper is infinitely safer than the router.

Really want to thank all that have responded with advice on what I should
be getting. That is what I like about this group, you ask a question and
get strait forward answers.

Again, THANKS.

Ray
===

"Ray S. & Nayda Katzaman" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> If you were to build a garage shop, what would be the three (3) shop
> tools - like table saws, etc. - that you would absolutely need to have
> (not including hand tools, manual or electric)? I need to work on my
> small garage and am undecided as to what it is that I really need.
> Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ray
> ===
>

Table saw, Drill Press, Router (Look for a hand held that you can also
use in a table)

Circular saw as a "powered hand tool."

These tools should take care of 90% of what you'd ever want to do with a
wood working project. Other tools will make it cleaner, easier, faster,
etc, but these will handle the bulk of your projects.

Do I have to even mention the cordless drill/driver?

Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

sweet sawdust wrote:
> "Ray S. & Nayda Katzaman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> If you were to build a garage shop, what would be the three (3) shop
>> tools - like table saws, etc. - that you would absolutely need to have
>> (not including hand tools, manual or electric)? I need to work on my
>> small garage and am undecided as to what it is that I really need.
>> Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Ray
>> ===
>>
> 1st choice I used this combo for years and it worked well for me.
> Radial Arm Saw Can to most of what a TS can do with a little training
> and takes up less room.
> Band saw
> Drill Press
>
> 2nd choice
> Shop Smith
> Planner
> other tool to be determined by what type of work would be done, for me a
> band saw
>
>

My three power tools are
1. Radial Arm Saw
2. Drillpress
3. Bench grinder

I have room for one more stationary tool. Might be a lathe, might be a
bandsaw.

David Starr



David Starr

DAClark wrote:
> Ouch...
> I wasn't trying to put anyone's work down, or set up any pissing
> matches...I was arguing in favor of the shaper for its woodworking
> purposes.
> I do believe that this particular machine tool has lost a great deal
> of the understanding that it once enjoyed. I have been in many shops
> that didn't even have one, and others, where they had the machine but
> didn't use it...I think fear is the shaper's greatest adversary.
> There is a learning curve...and improperly operated, the machine could
> eat your hand...but I know of no such accident.
> I do know the results are worth the effort of learning to use it. And
> if you are serious about your woodworking, you have to...

Just finished doing 35 feet of molding with a molding head on the RAS.
I'm ready for a real shaper. The molding head works, but there is a lot
of unpleasant splintering, and it's hard to hand feed the work slow
enough to keep the cut smooth.
But, to be real about it, I don't do all that many moldings, the
molding head does work, abet crudely, and I don't really have either the
money or the floor space for a shaper.

David Starr

Let me preface what follows by noting that I've got a
3 hp TEFC shaper that spins a 7" diameter, 1 1/4"
bore 2 knives cutter head at 5000 rpms. The split
fence allows each to be set independent of the other
- and I've got a sliding table to deal with end grain
work. I've also got a Dewalt 621 plunge router and
a Dewalt 625 plunge router, each with their own
router table plate, the latter router for large diameter
bits (panel raising) AND a JoinTech Cabinet Maker
fence a fence positioning system (if you haven't
see the JoinTech set up you probably have seen
the Incra)

With both the shaper and the router set up, a major
issue is the size of the space around the cutter where
wood can be pulled in BEHIND the fence. With the JoinTech c
abinet maker fence, the fence is a two parter, with
replaceable Zero Clearance Inserts which you cut to
match the bit you're using (for smaller router bits
you get two "profiles" per ZC insert). The stock
CANNOT get behind the fence. With the shaper there
is no zero clearance capability and if you use multiple
passes - hog out close, finer semifinish pass and
then a final very light pass - you must reset the
fences farther apart with each pass AND farther
back - and you still have that "stock pull behind
the " problem. With the shaper, if you move the
fences back for the next pass - and -forget to
move the fences apart - you get a horrible noise
when you turn the shaper on because the cutter
will be cutting your fence first.

Depending on if you're using a cutter head with
changeable knives rather than a dedicated cutter
you have no depth of cut limiter as you do with
modern router bits. That means that the cutter
CAN try to bite off more than it can chew - the
result typically being the stock being flung back
and away from the cutter.

Handfeeding a router bit is common, Hand feeding
a shaper is - well lets just say a power feeder would
be a very handy thing to have - even with a set of
rub collars that let you do your multiple passes thing,'
one collar per type of pass.

For a newbie who is going to make solid wood furniture
I'd go with a decent cabinet saw, an 8" joiner, tables
the longer the better and a 12" bench top planer,
the Dewalt 755(or is it the 735? - the one with the
chip extractor fan.

charlie b

Jack Stein wrote:

> "I probably would buy a shaper before a planer, but you can get by with
> a router. I have a shaper which is is a lot better than a router table
> but more expensive as well."
>
> A lot of people mention a planer in the top 3, but I sure don't get it
> unless you have a lumber mill and make your own lumber.
>
> Also, shaper would be one of the last large tools I'd buy since you can
> get by with a router and a table saw with a molding cutter. I will say
> I'm a little intrigued by all the effort and money put into buying huge
> expensive routers and lift mechanisms just to stick them in fancy tables
> pretending they are shapers. Might as well buy a shaper and be done
> with it.

Hi, Jack...
Can't quite tell if you're for or against the shaper...I guess it is
like this...once you've had a good table saw, it is hard to go back to
cutting your stock with a skilsaw. When I was younger, I had a router
for everything and knew all the tricks, but after I became familiar
with shaper work, the router lost most of it's status in the woodwork
I could do...proving that sometimes the previous technologies derived
in the era of industrial revolution cannot be beat by the newer
technology...And I am a believer in technology.
When I was seventeen, working in a union store fixture manufacturer's
shop, the router was a little known and little used piece of
technology that had been around for about thirty years, but had not
progressed beyond the point of a half-dozen steel bits and could
hardly be used for anything...mostly for the 'new' laminate
work...there were only a dozen colors of plastic laminate then...by
the mid-seventies router work had become a revolution in woodwork and
I was a major proponent of the technology.
I still use a router everyday...but I can do so much more with the
shaper, that I would give up my router first, before I would ever give
up my shaper.
As far as the plane is concerned, I have the same opinion...I cannot
live without it. Being able to size multiple pieces of stock cleanly
on four sides is usually the first and most critical stage of
engineering a project.
With those three machines and a box of handtools, I can build most any
wood project.

Table saw (of course)
band saw
jointer

You can mount a router in one wing of the table saw and not have to
take up space with a router table.

Dick Durbin
Tallahassee

B A R R Y wrote:
> Lots of shaper tasks have been co-opted by better router tables.
> A buddy of mine has a cheaper 1 HP shaper that really
> doesn't have much to offer over a good router table, along with
> several negatives, including cutter cost.
> I would never recommend a shaper to a newbie as an early tool.

I disagree that there are better router tables...the very best of
router tables is just a light weight shaper, but without the
adjustability of the shaper and that 1hp shaper makes a very
functional router table utilizing a router bit collet.
As far as cutter cost, per production foot, you'll burn up a dozen
router bits before your shaper cutter even needs sharpening. So
economically, the shaper cutters are less expensive...the larger
diameters make cleaner cuts...and eases the entrance of the wood into
the cut...much safer.
Another thing is understanding the full potential of the shaper...each
cut is a joining action...so you straighten at the same time.
I pass each piece twice or three times at 1/32...the first pass is a
hogging cut...the second is a finish cut...and the third or even a
fourth is on an as needed basis.
I can joint a whole pile of lumber quicker on the shaper than a
joiner...the material lays flat...and you can read the cut.
With rub collars and pins, I can free hand most shapes...
Putting three of four or more boards together for a panel is a
snap...with a choice of interlocking shapes...corners, no problem.
What I am trying to impart, here, is the potential for working wood is
far greater with the shaper...than current thinking is willing to
allow...

Mark & Juanita wrote:
> If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Happy Thanksgiving Day, Gentlemen...
This is a tough group, alright...and the argument over which
technology is best for each application has infinite possibilities. I
grew up in this current era of technology, being young I accepted
technology as my inherent right over those men that had come
before...and it served me well.
I have had a dozen shops, from one-car garage to 60,000 square feet,
with a dozen sets of equipments, ranging in value from junk to a
$250,000 tool base, and employing up to a two-dozen qualified
cabinetmakers. I have designed and built commercial and residential
fixtures, furnitures, liturgical works, office furniture...and many
more things than I can remember...and I did it from the workbench, not
the front office.
Technology is more than a set of tools...it is a state of mind. A man
can build a box utilizing all of technology...or a better box with
simple handtools.
Wood was the first material that man could shape to his own
imagination...working wood is the original source of all technology.
The technology that each of us would embrace is the technology we
know...and isn't that the beauty of working wood...because the first
ways that man ever worked wood still applies. In fact, the greatest
detail in wood, still, may only be accomplished by hand with a single
edge of steel...
And the first principles of working wood...to cut, to shape, to
fasten...are the same as they have always been.
So, regardless of all technology, man remains the greatest technology
of all...and wood...an infinite phenomena.

DAClark wrote:

I was arguing in favor of the shaper for its woodworking
> purposes.

I agree with that, and I'm often amazed that people jump through so many
hoops to buy a giant router, lift mechanisms and all that and never
mention a shaper, which even the small 1/2" shaper is far more powerful
than a portable router I think. I know they rate them at 3.5 HP but my
shaper motor is much bigger and I'm pretty certain has more beef than
any portable shop router.

> I do believe that this particular machine tool has lost a great deal
> of the understanding that it once enjoyed.

Certainly it has lost out to the router. Big shops don't count as they
have specialty machines for everything. Home shops pressed for room
and/or money can get by with a good router.

I have been in many shops
> that didn't even have one, and others, where they had the machine but
> didn't use it...I think fear is the shaper's greatest adversary.
> There is a learning curve...and improperly operated, the machine could
> eat your hand...but I know of no such accident.

I don't see as any different than a router in a table. My router table
works the same as my shaper. I guess I have bigger cutters in my shaper
but they have some pretty beefy router cutters around that would be
pretty dangerous, particularly if you can't moderate the speed a little.

> I do know the results are worth the effort of learning to use it. And
> if you are serious about your woodworking, you have to...

Agreed but not sure what learning you need for a shaper vs router table?
Actually, I think a shaper is easier to use and does a better job with
less burning issues and smoother cutting but really, not much different
stuff to be learned.

--
Jack
http://jbstein.com

"DAClark" wrote in message:
| Not one person mentioned the shaper...
| The first principles of working wood...to cut, to shape, to
| fasten...are the same as they have always been.
| My choice of three would be the table saw, the plane, and the shaper.

Disagree with your suggesting that a beginner should start with a shaper.
I would suggest just a table saw, maybe a band saw, and a lunchbox planer
for a beginner.

I make my living in woodworking and have 4 shapers and never owned a router
table, except that I mounted router bases underneath the left table winges
since '84 for detail cuts and some grooves and dados.

have a good day, woodstuff

"Ray S. & Nayda Katzaman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> If you were to build a garage shop, what would be the three (3) shop
> tools - like table saws, etc. - that you would absolutely need to have
> (not including hand tools, manual or electric)? I need to work on my
> small garage and am undecided as to what it is that I really need.
> Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ray
> ===
>

Table Saw Router, Planer

Ray S. & Nayda Katzaman wrote:
> If you were to build a garage shop, what would be the three (3) shop
> tools - like table saws, etc. - that you would absolutely need to have
> (not including hand tools, manual or electric)? I need to work on my
> small garage and am undecided as to what it is that I really need.
> Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated.

Table saw, band saw, drill press
then next 3
6x48 belt sander/disk sander combo, lathe, dust collector
then next 3
jig saw, jointer, planer or large belt/drum sander.

I have all these in my home shop except the planer and drum sander and
tried to list them in the order I would miss the most, or most used. I
really haven't missed the planer at all but would love to have a 24 or
36 inch belt/drum sander... I probably would buy a shaper before a
planer, but you can get by with a router. I have a shaper which is is a
lot better than a router table but more expensive as well.

Whatever you get, make sure it is high quality stuff. Cheap tools
always suck. If you can't afford good new stuff, find good old stuff,
or do without until you can buy quality.

--
Jack
http://jbstein.com

"Ray S. & Nayda Katzaman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> If you were to build a garage shop, what would be the three (3) shop
> tools - like table saws, etc. - that you would absolutely need to have
> (not including hand tools, manual or electric)? I need to work on my
> small garage and am undecided as to what it is that I really need.
> Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ray
> ===
>

ts, jointer, planer.

Can't do much without square stock, and I don't have the patience to
four-square by hand.

jc

"Frank Drackman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>>
>
> MiniMax or Felder combo machine, bandsaw, drill press
>

Hey Frank, that is almost cheating. LOL Great suggestion, you get more
machines for a single choice.

DAClark wrote:

> Jack Stein wrote:
>
>
>>"I probably would buy a shaper before a planer, but you can get by with
>>a router. I have a shaper which is is a lot better than a router table
>>but more expensive as well."

> Hi, Jack...
> Can't quite tell if you're for or against the shaper...

I'm all for the shaper, just not if you are only got room or money for 3
large machines.

> I still use a router everyday...but I can do so much more with the
> shaper, that I would give up my router first, before I would ever give
> up my shaper.

A router wasn't the issue as that is a hand tool not a large cabinet
tool, so wasn't really part of the question. I think the guy should buy
a router long before a shaper because it does more than a shaper can do,
just not as well for many things. You can definitely get by with a
router for most home shops, so a shaper isn't one of the 3 large
machines I'd buy or recommend.

> As far as the plane is concerned, I have the same opinion...I cannot
> live without it. Being able to size multiple pieces of stock cleanly
> on four sides is usually the first and most critical stage of
> engineering a project.

I've made a ton of furniture w/o the need for a planer. I know it would
be nice to have, but unless I was logging my own wood, I can do just
fine with lumber straight from the lumber yard. I would much rather
have a 24 or 36 inch drum/belt sander than a plane, but I'd like to have
a plane as well, just again, not one of only 3.

> With those three machines and a box of handtools, I can build most any
> wood project.

I've watched the Woodright guy on TV with all his hand tools... not my
cup of tea. Nothing against it, I just like machinery of any kind and
hate doing anything by hand if it can be done with a machine. It's a
personality thing I guess, but I love machinery.

--
Jack
http://jbstein.com

"B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
| Jay Pique wrote:
| >
| > How do you attach table tops to the apron?
| > JP
|
| For solid wood tops, I like shop-made wooden blocks that mate with
| grooves in the back of the apron, or metal "zee" fasteners in similar
| apron grooves.
|
| Plywood or composite tops can be screwed dead tight with pocket screws
| or corner blocks, as they won't move.
|
Good post, this is a real good fastening method.

have a good day, woodstuff

No votes for the Festool Domino?!

JP

Ouch...
I wasn't trying to put anyone's work down, or set up any pissing
matches...I was arguing in favor of the shaper for its woodworking
purposes.
I do believe that this particular machine tool has lost a great deal
of the understanding that it once enjoyed. I have been in many shops
that didn't even have one, and others, where they had the machine but
didn't use it...I think fear is the shaper's greatest adversary.
There is a learning curve...and improperly operated, the machine could
eat your hand...but I know of no such accident.
I do know the results are worth the effort of learning to use it. And
if you are serious about your woodworking, you have to...

Mark & Juanita wrote:
> If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Happy Thanksgiving Day, Gentlemen...
This is a tough group, alright...and the argument over which
technology is best for each application has infinite possibilities. I
grew up in this current era of technology, being young I accepted
technology as my inherent right over those men that had come
before...and it served me well.
I have had a dozen shops, from one-car garage to 60,000 square feet,
with a dozen sets of equipments, ranging in value from junk to a
$250,000 tool base, and employing up to a two-dozen qualified
cabinetmakers. I have designed and built commercial and residential
fixtures, furnitures, liturgical works, office furniture...and many
more things than I can remember...and I did it from the workbench, not
the front office.
Technology is more than a set of tools...it is a state of mind. A man
can build a box utilizing all of technology...or a better box with
simple handtools.
Wood was the first material that man could shape to his own
imagination...working wood is the original source of all technology.
The technology that each of us would embrace is the technology we
know...and isn't that the beauty of working wood...because the first
ways that man ever worked wood still applies. In fact, the greatest
detail in wood, still, may only be accomplished by hand with a single
edge of steel...
And the first principles of working wood...to cut, to shape, to
fasten...are the same as they have always been.
So, regardless of all technology, man remains the greatest technology
of all...and wood...an infinite phenomena.

On Nov 20, 12:11 pm, DAClark <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Nov 19, 11:13 pm, "woodstuff" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "Jay Pique" wrote in message:
>
> > | No votes for the Festool Domino?!
> > I vote for the Domino thang, but just can't afford it right now: I'm doing
> > pocket screws and biscuits.
>
> That joke is on me, cause I have no idea what the festool domino is...
> But I can fully engineer wood for any structure without pocket screws
> or biscuits on the shaper.
> Any project, large or small, is the result of engineered
> parts...relying upon auxiliary fasteners only promotes the weakening
> of that structure by negating proper wood engineering.

How do you attach table tops to the apron?
JP

Ray,
I have to cite four tools that I feel are necessary - for me - three
just won't cut it (sorry about the pun)

Table saw
Jointer
Planer
Band saw.

A hand held plunge router with a good fence/guide system would be a
needed item and if posible a means to mount your router in the side
table of the table saw would be a great plus.
As has been pointed out elsewhere in this group, you could egde joint
on the router which could minimize the need for a jointer but I could
not get away with that for the stuff that I try to make.

Marc

Not one person mentioned the shaper...
The first principles of working wood...to cut, to shape, to
fasten...are the same as they have always been.
My choice of three would be the table saw, the plane, and the shaper.

On Nov 14, 11:22 pm, "Ray S. & Nayda Katzaman" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> If you were to build a garage shop, what would be the three (3) shop
> tools - like table saws, etc. - that you would absolutely need to have
> (not including hand tools, manual or electric)? I need to work on my
> small garage and am undecided as to what it is that I really need.
> Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ray
> ===

By far the most useful thing is a good bench -- hard to do anything
if you don't have a good flat spot on which to work. With a good
bench you can do lots of one-off things with hand tools about as fast
setting up a machine. Without a good bench, layout, dry fit and
glue up is much harder and more frustrating.

Everything else is an efficiency device. Since there is a three
device limit and it's a garshop, I'm guessing the limitation is really
on space and thigns have to be stowed when not in use. If so I'd put
efficiency per sq ft high for a smaller full-size band saw, and a
table saw (using the bench as outfeed table). I'd go with a dust
collector on wheels for the the third. Other stationary machines may
vary a lot in space efficiency depending on what you build.

hex
-30-

On Nov 19, 11:13 pm, "woodstuff" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Jay Pique" wrote in message:
>
> | No votes for the Festool Domino?!

> I vote for the Domino thang, but just can't afford it right now: I'm doing
> pocket screws and biscuits.

That joke is on me, cause I have no idea what the festool domino is...
But I can fully engineer wood for any structure without pocket screws
or biscuits on the shaper.
Any project, large or small, is the result of engineered
parts...relying upon auxiliary fasteners only promotes the weakening
of that structure by negating proper wood engineering.

Ray S. & Nayda Katzaman wrote:
> If you were to build a garage shop, what would be the three (3) shop
> tools - like table saws, etc. - that you would absolutely need to
> have
> (not including hand tools, manual or electric)? I need to work on
> my
> small garage and am undecided as to what it is that I really need.
> Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated.

What kind of work do you want to do? If you're primarily a turner
then the answer is going to be different from if you're primarily a
box maker or a furniture maker or whatever.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

David Starr wrote:
> DAClark wrote:
>> Ouch...
>> I wasn't trying to put anyone's work down, or set up any pissing
>> matches...I was arguing in favor of the shaper for its woodworking
>> purposes.
>> I do believe that this particular machine tool has lost a great
>> deal
>> of the understanding that it once enjoyed. I have been in many
>> shops
>> that didn't even have one, and others, where they had the machine
>> but
>> didn't use it...I think fear is the shaper's greatest adversary.
>> There is a learning curve...and improperly operated, the machine
>> could eat your hand...but I know of no such accident.
>> I do know the results are worth the effort of learning to use it.
>> And if you are serious about your woodworking, you have to...
>
> Just finished doing 35 feet of molding with a molding head on the
> RAS.
> I'm ready for a real shaper. The molding head works, but there is a
> lot of unpleasant splintering, and it's hard to hand feed the work
> slow enough to keep the cut smooth.
> But, to be real about it, I don't do all that many moldings, the
> molding head does work, abet crudely, and I don't really have either
> the money or the floor space for a shaper.

If you're not running a commercial molding shop a good router in a
table should do fine. Last time I was in Woodcraft they had 3-1/2 HP
Freuds on sale for a ridiculously low price. One of those in a table
will make molding in small volume just fine.
>
> David Starr

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

DAClark wrote:

> Not one person mentioned the shaper...
> The first principles of working wood...to cut, to shape, to
> fasten...are the same as they have always been.
> My choice of three would be the table saw, the plane, and the shaper.
>
I did:

"I probably would buy a shaper before a planer, but you can get by with
a router. I have a shaper which is is a lot better than a router table
but more expensive as well."

A lot of people mention a planer in the top 3, but I sure don't get it
unless you have a lumber mill and make your own lumber.

Also, shaper would be one of the last large tools I'd buy since you can
get by with a router and a table saw with a molding cutter. I will say
I'm a little intrigued by all the effort and money put into buying huge
expensive routers and lift mechanisms just to stick them in fancy tables
pretending they are shapers. Might as well buy a shaper and be done
with it.

--
Jack
http://jbstein.com

"Ray S. & Nayda Katzaman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> If you were to build a garage shop, what would be the three (3) shop
> tools - like table saws, etc. - that you would absolutely need to have
> (not including hand tools, manual or electric)? I need to work on my
> small garage and am undecided as to what it is that I really need.
> Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ray
> ===
>

MiniMax or Felder combo machine, bandsaw, drill press

on 15/11/2007, Ray S. & Nayda Katzaman supposed :
> If you were to build a garage shop, what would be the three (3) shop
> tools - like table saws, etc. - that you would absolutely need to have
> (not including hand tools, manual or electric)? I need to work on my
> small garage and am undecided as to what it is that I really need.
> Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ray
> ===

Table saw, band saw, drill press.

Mekon

"DAClark" wrote in message:
| On Nov 18, 3:10 pm, "woodstuff" wrote:
|
| > Disagree with your suggesting that a beginner...
|
| I don't disagree with you, if it is a safety issue you refer to...but
| the question was about equipment, not the qualification of the
| operator.

<respectfully snipped>

I guess it doesn't matter either way. Since the original poster didn't
state their intentions about what they wanted to do, I assumed that they
were going to build birdhouses and paper weights, maybe some front-yard
cutouts painted with Christmas stuff. Who knows?

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I agree about the router table and bits
costing more and doing less, but I have been unable in the past to explain
the difference to some who listen to the idiots at woodcraft and look at me
like I have 3 eyes...

Have a good day, woodstuff

Ray S. & Nayda Katzaman wrote:
> If you were to build a garage shop, what would be the three (3) shop
> tools - like table saws, etc. - that you would absolutely need to
> have (not including hand tools, manual or electric)? I need to
> work on my small garage and am undecided as to what it is that I
> really need. Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated.

1. Table saw, no doubt.

2. Drum sander (Performax). Not many would agree with me but it has
done more for my ability to "make stuff" than anything else after a
saw. I can dress raw lumber and thickness plane with it. A thickness
planer would do it faster but no better and probably not as well. It
is just wonderful to be able to easily get all parts of something the
same thickness AND well sanded. For all practical purposes, it also
surface joins...and up to 32" to boot :)

3. A harder choice and up for grabs...
(a) drill press - handy but I spent decades without one
(b) joiner - also handy, used to do it quite satisfactorily on a
router table
(c) lathe - lots of fun and a real time saver when you need round
stuff
(d) combo disc/belt sander - useful but one can do without
(e) scroll saw - unless you are into intricate things, not real
handy
(f) band saw - I think I'd opt for this as #3. I use mine quite a
bit mostly for resawing. In fact, if I had space & $$, I'd have TWO
of them...one for resawing, another set up with a narrow, fine blade
as they are a real PITA to change blades.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

"Ray S. & Nayda Katzaman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> If you were to build a garage shop, what would be the three (3) shop
> tools - like table saws, etc. - that you would absolutely need to have
> (not including hand tools, manual or electric)? I need to work on my
> small garage and am undecided as to what it is that I really need.
> Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ray
> ===
>
1st choice I used this combo for years and it worked well for me.
Radial Arm Saw Can to most of what a TS can do with a little training
and takes up less room.
Band saw
Drill Press

2nd choice
Shop Smith
Planner
other tool to be determined by what type of work would be done, for me a
band saw

"Jay Pique" <[email protected]> wrote in message:
|
| How do you attach table tops to the apron?

Pocket screws work well for me, but I am sure that there are better ways.

Have a good day,
woodstuff

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 05:22:48 GMT, "Ray S. & Nayda Katzaman"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>If you were to build a garage shop, what would be the three (3) shop
>tools - like table saws, etc. - that you would absolutely need to have
>(not including hand tools, manual or electric)?

What do you want to make to start out?

- Band saws aren't as useful for plywood cabinets as they might be for
fine furniture.

- Jointers and planers don't do well with plywood and MDF.

- Some fine furniture makes forgo a table saw, but live and die with a
band saw, jointer, and planer.

- Some guys don't use power tools at all, and still work pretty
quickly. Check this out:
<http://www.popularwoodworking.com/blog3/How+I+Became+A+Hand+Tool+Guru.aspx>

- Some folks have good access to good quality s4s lumber, and joint
well-enough using a router or a table saw.

For most woodworkers planning to use power tools, a table saw is a
necessity, and a good all-around first purchase. Don't scrimp here,
a good contractor's saw might be the only table saw you'll ever need.

From there, we need to think about the question at the beginning...

---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

"DAClark" wrote in message:
| Any project, large or small, is the result of engineered
| parts...relying upon auxiliary fasteners only promotes the weakening
| of that structure by negating proper wood engineering.

What you say is true and correct. I am also sure that you do outstanding
work, and maybe prettier than mine as well as more sound. I am also sure
that you have done things that I haven't and know things I don't know.

The problem for me with doing other types of joinery is that it takes more
time than I have, especially the construction of face frames and attaching
them to the cabinet body. I just don't have time to do a mortise and tenon
on such a volume.

When I do a furniture piece, I do better. I hope to reform myself soon. :-)

have a good day,
woodstuff http://www.tomswink.com/

DAClark wrote:
>
> I do believe that this particular machine tool has lost a great deal
> of the understanding that it once enjoyed.

Lots of shaper tasks have been co-opted by better router tables.

A big shaper can't be beat for handrails, entry doors, or all-day stile
and rail milling. A buddy of mine has a cheaper 1 HP shaper that really
doesn't have much to offer over a good router table, along with
several negatives, including cutter cost.

I would never recommend a shaper to a newbie as an early tool. A newbie
that wants to use power tools WILL need a router, so that moves a shaper
way down the list.

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:XA5%[email protected]...
>
> "Frank Drackman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>>
>>
>> MiniMax or Felder combo machine, bandsaw, drill press
>>
>
> Hey Frank, that is almost cheating. LOL Great suggestion, you get more
> machines for a single choice.
>

The key is "almost cheating."

I moved from a huge shop into a small one and had to ditch the separate
machines. The switch was not without some issues. I had to learn to be much
more organized and think through the steps for each phase of the project.

In a few years I will be building another shop and I am starting to think
about what machines I will use then.

"Jay Pique" wrote in message:
| No votes for the Festool Domino?!
|
| JP

I vote for the Domino thang, but just can't afford it right now: I'm doing
pocket screws and biscuits.
When my ship comes in...

have a good day, woodstuff