I've never looked forward to applying contact cement with a paint roller, if
you're not careful things can get out of hand with globs and smearing and
uneven coating. As an alternative I was borrowing a friends pressurized
tank from time to time. If you're used to using that system, I guess that's
the state of the art. But I found something at the local lumberyard that
works better than anything I've ever tried. It's just a 9" roller cover made
specifically for applying adhesive. Its just a densely woven texture with
little bumps like berber carpeting. It puts the cement down in even little
dots at just the right thickness, totally foolproof. Unfortunately they
come in an unmarked wrapper so I don't have any information about
who makes them, but I got them at Fox Lumber, Alsip, IL. (708-636-
3500)
bub209 remarks:
>But I found something at the local lumberyard that
>works better than anything I've ever tried. It's just a 9" roller cover made
>specifically for applying adhesive. Its just a densely woven texture with
>little bumps like berber carpeting. It puts the cement down in even little
>dots at just the right thickness, totally foolproof. Unfortunately they
>come in an unmarked wrapper so I don't have any information about
>who makes them, but I got them at Fox Lumber, Alsip, IL. (708-636-
>3500)
A notched piece of scrap laminate works nicely, too. Make a series of notches
maybe 1/8" deep across the base, making the laminate piece as wide as you can
effectively use. Then use it as a spreader. Works really well.
If you do a lot of laminating, make a half dozen or more at one clip by taping
them together before cutting the notches.
Charlie Self
"Politics: A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The
conduct of public affairs for private advantage. " Ambrose Bierce
On 03 Nov 2003 13:24:23 GMT, [email protected] (BUB 209) wrote:
> It puts the cement down in even little
>dots at just the right thickness, totally foolproof. Unfortunately they
>come in an unmarked wrapper so I don't have any information about
>who makes them, but I got them at Fox Lumber, Alsip, IL. (708-636-
>3500)
The ones I use are Bestt Liebco Professional, fiberglass resin,
Tru-Pro, 9", 1/4" nap, 895009 Frieze 9V95.
Bestt Liebco
1800 Morris St.
Fond Du Lac, Wisconsin
54935
"Charlie Self" writes:
> A notched piece of scrap laminate works nicely, too. Make a series of
notches
> maybe 1/8" deep across the base, making the laminate piece as wide as you
can
> effectively use. Then use it as a spreader. Works really well.
If I'm going to do some serious laminate work, then it is spray gun time.
Having said that, I go thru a lot of notched trowels laying epoxy fairing
compound which serves as a cement to hold foam against a fiberglass surface
to form a sandwich construction. Very similar to laying floor tile.
These trowels are strictly a one time use item. Forget about trying to clean
them.
I use 1/4" scrap acrylic plastic and a 1/4" box joint jig on a table saw.
Make up a couple of dozen at a crack, say about 3"-4" wide, x 12" lg.
Same technique would also work with counter top grade laminate.
Vertical grade might be a little "iffy" since it is so thin.
HTH
--
Lew
S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> for Pictures
"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 3 Nov 2003 13:46:09 -0800, [email protected] (Mike) wrote:
>
>
> >Do yourself and your brain cells a favor and use the
> >water based stuff. It is a better quality product, easier to use,
> >bonds better, spreads easier and more evenly, and much safer, superior
> >in all respects. There is no reason other that habit (or lack of brain
> >cells) to use that old stuff anymore.
>
>
> I don't think that most professionals would agree with you that water
> based is a better quality product, bonds better and is superior in all
> respects.
>
> If that is true then why does Wilsonart make fourteen flammable
> formulations of contact adhesive and only one of water based?
>
> cf:
> http://www.wilsonart.com/adhesives/techdata/techdata.asp
>
> I'll go along with you that the flammable is nastier to be around but
> it doesn't take any more care than using nitro lacquer, which is still
> the most used finish in small cabinet shops.
>
> My own experience tells me that the flammable adhesive sets up
> quicker, gives a stronger initial bond and is more resistant to
> delaminating over time.
>
> I'll be glad for the day that this is no longer true but I don't think
> we're there yet.
>
>
> Regards, Tom
> Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker
> Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
> http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson
Tom
I agree with you. I have been using 3M 1357 pro contact adhesive for about
15 years now with great success. I have tried other contact cement,
including many water based products, and they do not come close to the
performance of the 3M product. In fact, the bond gets stronger with age. It
is pricey and you can not buy it at the local lumber house.
Tom Plamann
www.plamann.com
On 3 Nov 2003 21:10:25 -0800, [email protected] (Mike) wrote:
>> On 3 Nov 2003 13:46:09 -0800, [email protected] (Mike) wrote:
> Do yourself and those around you a
>favor and give it another try. There are only a few diehards left
>around here who still use the bad stuff.
Fair enough. When I have some time I'll get a quart and try it out.
The last time I tried it was about five years ago and the results were
bad.
I'd like to switch over to water based spray finishes too, but the
last time I tried them they weren't up to the job.
My guess is that most of the the high VOC stuff will be legislated out
of existence one of these days in any case and we'll all just have to
make do with whatever the industrial chemist fellas can come up with.
Regards, Tom
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker
Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson
[email protected] (BUB 209) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I've never looked forward to applying contact cement with a paint roller, if
> you're not careful things can get out of hand with globs and smearing and
> uneven coating. As an alternative I was borrowing a friends pressurized
> tank from time to time. If you're used to using that system, I guess that's
> the state of the art. But I found something at the local lumberyard that
> works better than anything I've ever tried. It's just a 9" roller cover made
> specifically for applying adhesive. Its just a densely woven texture with
> little bumps like berber carpeting. It puts the cement down in even little
> dots at just the right thickness, totally foolproof. Unfortunately they
> come in an unmarked wrapper so I don't have any information about
> who makes them, but I got them at Fox Lumber, Alsip, IL. (708-636-
> 3500)
I've been rolling contact cement for years with no problems using the
cheapest roller I can find. I suspect you are still using the nasty
old type which works best with spray equipment and in commercial
applications. Do yourself and your brain cells a favor and use the
water based stuff. It is a better quality product, easier to use,
bonds better, spreads easier and more evenly, and much safer, superior
in all respects. There is no reason other that habit (or lack of brain
cells) to use that old stuff anymore.
Mike
>I suspect you are still using the nasty
>old type which works best with spray equipment and in commercial
>applications.
I would be sold on the waterproof stuff
if you'd be willing to give me a tour of
all the projects you've done "over the
years" to see how well everything's
held up. Seriously though, you don't
get callbacks for delamination?
how are you applying it Mike? spray or roll? If spray, what rig and
tip? TIA
dave
Mike wrote:
> [email protected] (BUB 209) wrote in message
>
>>I would be sold on the waterproof stuff
>>if you'd be willing to give me a tour of
>>all the projects you've done "over the
>>years" to see how well everything's
>>held up. Seriously though, you don't
>>get callbacks for delamination?
>
>
> Well, laminate counter tops is one of the things I do for a living so
> if you want the tour, better set aside a few months :>) Zero callbacks
> for delamination using the waterbased stuff. I did have a couple of
> problems using the nasty stuff before i switched. See post above for
> the reasons. The only problems I've had are usually things beyond my
> control e.g. the cabinets shrinking down away from the backsplash in
> new construction.
>
> Mike
[email protected] (BUB 209) wrote in message
>
> I would be sold on the waterproof stuff
> if you'd be willing to give me a tour of
> all the projects you've done "over the
> years" to see how well everything's
> held up. Seriously though, you don't
> get callbacks for delamination?
Well, laminate counter tops is one of the things I do for a living so
if you want the tour, better set aside a few months :>) Zero callbacks
for delamination using the waterbased stuff. I did have a couple of
problems using the nasty stuff before i switched. See post above for
the reasons. The only problems I've had are usually things beyond my
control e.g. the cabinets shrinking down away from the backsplash in
new construction.
Mike
> On 3 Nov 2003 13:46:09 -0800, [email protected] (Mike) wrote:
>
>
> >Do yourself and your brain cells a favor and use the
> >water based stuff. It is a better quality product, easier to use,
> >bonds better, spreads easier and more evenly, and much safer, superior
> >in all respects. There is no reason other that habit (or lack of brain
> >cells) to use that old stuff anymore.
>
Tom Watson <[email protected]> replied in message
>
> I don't think that most professionals would agree with you that water
> based is a better quality product, bonds better and is superior in all
> respects.
>
> If that is true then why does Wilsonart make fourteen flammable
> formulations of contact adhesive and only one of water based?
>
> cf:
> http://www.wilsonart.com/adhesives/techdata/techdata.asp
>
> I'll go along with you that the flammable is nastier to be around but
> it doesn't take any more care than using nitro lacquer, which is still
> the most used finish in small cabinet shops.
>
> My own experience tells me that the flammable adhesive sets up
> quicker, gives a stronger initial bond and is more resistant to
> delaminating over time.
>
> I'll be glad for the day that this is no longer true but I don't think
> we're there yet.
>
>
> Regards, Tom
>
Tom, I respectfully disagree. The flammable solvent based product has
it's place in a commercial production environment where precautions
can be taken. Hence the various formulations fine tuned to the job.
For the small cabinet shop, subcontractor or homeowner it's a no
brainer, the water based stuff wins hands down. There are no air
quality problems or fire hazard, important considerations on a jobsite
with other workers or in a home/remodel. Application is easier and
less is needed. I find the initial bond to be fine and haven't had a
delamination problem in 15-20 years. The initial glue setup is very
slightly slower but the working open time is longer. The only time
I've ever had a problem with stick down is with the nasty stuff and
not getting it down before the glue had become too dry. I learned to
wet the glue surface with lacquer thinner to revitalize it on hot dry
days if left open too long before bonding. But then I changed to 3M's
30NF and never looked back. I think some of the bad experiences people
had with the water based glue came from people initially trying to use
it just like they did the old stuff. It's enough different that it
takes a little getting used to. Do yourself and those around you a
favor and give it another try. There are only a few diehards left
around here who still use the bad stuff.
Mike
> >> On 3 Nov 2003 13:46:09 -0800, [email protected] (Mike) wrote:
>
> > Do yourself and those around you a
> >favor and give it another try. There are only a few diehards left
> >around here who still use the bad stuff.
>
Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Fair enough. When I have some time I'll get a quart and try it out.
> The last time I tried it was about five years ago and the results were
> bad.
>
> I'd like to switch over to water based spray finishes too, but the
> last time I tried them they weren't up to the job.
>
> My guess is that most of the the high VOC stuff will be legislated out
> of existence one of these days in any case and we'll all just have to
> make do with whatever the industrial chemist fellas can come up with.
>
> Regards, Tom
It (high VOC) already isn't economical if a small shop were to install
the required air scrubbers etc. I don't like to stink up the
neighborhood with pre cat but so far I haven't found anything to match
it for ease of application, price, time and resulting finish quality.
The best of the water based products I've found is the Enduro. Still,
it is expensive, gums up sandpaper and won't blend out the holidays in
the preceeding coat without some hand work. If you know anything
better let me know.
Mike.
Hi Tom,
Thanks for the timely post. I went and picked up one of these Bestt Liebco
rollers today, along with some more DAP Weldwood original contact cement (I
couldn't find any of the 3M stuff, so I went with what was there).
Anyway, I applied the 1/4" masonite edging and top skin to my 3x3/4" MDF
benchtop and using the roller made a noticeable difference in how even the
cement went down. Are these rollers reusable? It doesn't seem to have
built up much of the cement. I wiped it down with some mineral spirits, but
the fumes from the cement were too much for me (I was dumb and took off my
respirator during clean-up).
This was the first time I ever used contact cement, and boy is it potent (at
least the organic-based stuff I had). I'm honestly going to let the shop
air out for at least 3 or 4 days before I go back there. Does the cement
continue to off-gas for an extended period of time after the intial bonding?
Wouldn't surprise me.
Thanks again,
Mike
"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 03 Nov 2003 13:24:23 GMT, [email protected] (BUB 209) wrote:
>
> > It puts the cement down in even little
> >dots at just the right thickness, totally foolproof. Unfortunately they
> >come in an unmarked wrapper so I don't have any information about
> >who makes them, but I got them at Fox Lumber, Alsip, IL. (708-636-
> >3500)
>
>
> The ones I use are Bestt Liebco Professional, fiberglass resin,
> Tru-Pro, 9", 1/4" nap, 895009 Frieze 9V95.
>
> Bestt Liebco
> 1800 Morris St.
> Fond Du Lac, Wisconsin
> 54935
>
>
On 3 Nov 2003 13:46:09 -0800, [email protected] (Mike) wrote:
>Do yourself and your brain cells a favor and use the
>water based stuff. It is a better quality product, easier to use,
>bonds better, spreads easier and more evenly, and much safer, superior
>in all respects. There is no reason other that habit (or lack of brain
>cells) to use that old stuff anymore.
I don't think that most professionals would agree with you that water
based is a better quality product, bonds better and is superior in all
respects.
If that is true then why does Wilsonart make fourteen flammable
formulations of contact adhesive and only one of water based?
cf:
http://www.wilsonart.com/adhesives/techdata/techdata.asp
I'll go along with you that the flammable is nastier to be around but
it doesn't take any more care than using nitro lacquer, which is still
the most used finish in small cabinet shops.
My own experience tells me that the flammable adhesive sets up
quicker, gives a stronger initial bond and is more resistant to
delaminating over time.
I'll be glad for the day that this is no longer true but I don't think
we're there yet.
Regards, Tom
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker
Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson
I grew up with oil based and was disappointed with early WB stuff but
after reading several posts touting PSL decided to try it. I'm
agreeing with their opinion, great stuff. Higher solids than solvent
lacquer, 100% burn in and recoat about equal to solvent stuff.
www.targetcoatings.com is designer/maker.
On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 19:28:34 GMT, Tom Watson
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I'd like to switch over to water based spray finishes too, but the
>last time I tried them they weren't up to the job.
On 3 Nov 2003 21:10:25 -0800, [email protected] (Mike) wrote:
>There are only a few diehards left
>around here who still use the bad stuff.
Or leatherworkers. I use Evostick 528, which is a traditional
"neoprene and petroleum" solution. Although I've seen the water based
stuff work for some wood-wood veneering tasks, I've never seen it work
for leather (like a desk skiver), or work especially well for
Formica-like Melamine laminates.
And for veneering, I still prefer the very traditional hot hide glue.
The purpose of a contact cement is to have something that has low
viscosity when applied and high tack in use. Hide glue gives you this,
sets well when it cools down a few minutes later, yet has a useful
amount of thixotropic behaviour to let you slide it around when first
laid down.
There used to be a petroleum based adhesive from Evostick called
Thixofix that also allowed some adjustment. Haven't seen it in years
though.
--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods