In article <[email protected]>,
CW <[email protected]> wrote:
>Wonder how long it will be before ads for products will carry the lable "not
>available in California"?
<...snipped...>
I've noticed certain products that had that disclaimer for several
years now...
--
Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
[email protected]
Lawrence Wasserman wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> CW <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Wonder how long it will be before ads for products will carry the lable "not
> >available in California"?
> <...snipped...>
>
> I've noticed certain products that had that disclaimer for several
> years now...
>
Many finishes are listed as "Not For Sale In California." IIRC, CA has
the tightest VOC laws in the country, to the point of ridulousness in
some cases. The finish manufacturers that make material that would run
up againt the regulations simply label it as above. It can drive mail
order retailers nuts, but is a good move for most of us in the other 49
states.
Some of you may have Rockwell/Delta metalworking equiipment. If you
have any, you would know that there has been NO parts available these
machines for years and users have to rebuild the machines themselves.
If the phasing out of spare parts news is correct (and I have no reason
to doubt it), it will be a repeat of what has happened to the
metalworking side of Rockwell/Delta.
As someone else has already pointed out, if you can't repair it then
you buy just enough quality to last for the time you use the tool...in
other words you start shopping for price only on disposable tools. If
you look at what other products B&D sell, they are cost engineered to
the penny. It would not surprise me if ten years from now we look back
and remember how Delta how USED to be a brand to buy and how much
better the HuFlungDung tools from China are compared to the future
Delta offerings.
TMT
I understand what you mean BUT I as an informed consumer spend my money
with companies that SUPPORT my purchase.
If you as a tool company want my business, you need to support the
product LONG after the purchase.
Otherwise I will shop based on price...and there will always be someone
cheaper than you.
As for Ford, I drive a 31 year old Ford pickup and I intend to be
driving it for years to come. If the support for this pickup would
suddenly not be available because of Ford's shortsightedness, then my
next vehicle will not be a Ford.
Brand loyalty does not come for free...it is earned....a point that
company management often forgets.
TMT
Dave,
Explain what you mean by "top posting".
I replied to your post and from my viewpoint, everything looks okay.
In regards to support after the sale, I have been happy with the
results...but I suspect this will change with more and more companies
taking the easy way out....their loss in the future.
In regards to Ford, I have gotten any part I needed. As I said, if that
changes then it is Ford's loss.
TMT
joe2 <[email protected]> writes:
>Should my Delta Unisaw ever require warranty repair, Delta is REQUIRED
>to come to my home and do the repair, or pick the saw, fix it and
>return it at no charge to me. Anything that uses electricity, weights
>more than 70-lbs, is awkward to carry, or is installed is required to
>be repaired in at the home or pick up and deliver is to be arranged and
>paid for by the manf. AT 300+ lbs, its definitely Deltas problem
or
>at least a local Delta retailers problem.
Does this apply to retailers that don't have a business nexus in
California and simply ship things in?
It is a wonder that anyone does business in California these days with all
the extra rules and regulations. Those of us not in California are
probably subsidizing these laws as the manufacturers/retailers probably
don't charge more than any other state.
I have no idea what Delta's repair policies normally. Will they send
someone out to repair a Unisaw, no matter what state?
Brian Elfert
Mike Berger <[email protected]> writes:
>An awful lot of parts for that equipment isn't custom. Typical
>hardware items that fail should be available for years. And
>it's not like the design changes drastically every couple of
>years, at least for the better equipment.
I've heard of people getting parts from Delta for 40 or 50 year old
Unisaws. A number of the parts for a 40 year old Unisaw are not the same
as a modern Unisaw.
Will B&D keep these parts around or restock them (If even possible) since
that particular model of Unisaw has been discontinued for many years?
Brian Elfert
I find this all rather stupid thinking. I mean how much has the basic
stationary WWing machines changed over the years? Almost nil. I'm
guessing they are having a hard time selling new machines. But, what
they don't realize is that selling parts to keep the older machines
working can be a cash cow by keeping those who own such equipment
loyal to the brand. Dummies.
That kind of thinking is okay when selling dispoable B&D *tools*...if
you can call them tools. Most people throw them away after they stop
working anyways. Cheaper to buy a new one (if you're stupid to buy
another crappy tool) than get it repaired. But this isn't so with the
type of machines that Delta manufactures and sells. We're talking
about machines that cost hundreds if not thousands of dollars...not
some stupid sander that looks like a mouse.
One of the things I'm noticing about Craftsman is that they're finally
realizing after serveral decades of producing crappy tools is that
people want to buy and are willing to pay for quality tools. Their new
machines aren't top notch, but they're getting better than before.
Layne
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:22:45 -0500, John Dill <[email protected]>
wrote:
>If any of you out there have any older Delta equipment, be advised that
>Delta ( B&D) is dropping a lot of parts/support for older tools. B&D
>sunset policy is 6 years for parts support. Better order what you need
>now, if it isn't already too late... John
People who incessantly complain about top-posting deserve the
irritation they feel as a result of the top-posting.
"Balderstone's Postulate"
;-P
In article <[email protected]>, Dave Hinz
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Why do you top-post? That really fucks up the flow of the conversation,
> you know.
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 06:22:47 GMT, "BB" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"John Dill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> If any of you out there have any older Delta equipment, be advised that
>> Delta ( B&D) is dropping a lot of parts/support for older tools. B&D
>> sunset policy is 6 years for parts support. Better order what you need
>> now, if it isn't already too late... John
>
>Actually it might be a good idea of those on the REC wrote to B&D and
>expressed their feelings about the policy - bitching here does little
>good...
>
>BB
>
Posting here is not entirely a waste of time. It may alert people to
a problem to be handled.
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 08:18:41 GMT, John B <[email protected]>
wrote:
... snip
>>
>Yep it has even touched us in the 51st state Aust. :)
>I purchased an item the other day, can't remember what it was but I do
>recall that the packaging had something similar to the following.
>"Attention this item may contain products that are considered harmful to
>your health in the State of California"
>Shit, I sure am glad that it only effects people living there. ;)
>regards
>John
Yep, the exact wording is, "Warning: this item contains [or may contain,
depending on the product] products that are known by the state of
California to cause cancer" This warning is getting out of control to the
point that manufacturers are putting it on just about everything they sell.
i.e, the warning is now totally useless and meaningless -- law of
unintended consequences strikes again.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:22:38 -0600, Duane Bozarth <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hard to say...my understanding from what I was told by a gal on the
> phone some time ago when ordering a piece for an old jointer that it
> would be sometime in arriving as they would have to have it produced
> (machined) in order to supply it...except for castings, I think that's
> what they typically did.
So, time in the metalshop to keep the woodshop working properly. Oh,
darn.
On 28 Nov 2005 14:43:30 -0800, Too_Many_Tools <[email protected]> wrote:
> Some of you may have Rockwell/Delta metalworking equiipment. If you
> have any, you would know that there has been NO parts available these
> machines for years and users have to rebuild the machines themselves.
Well, my Rockwell tools _are_ 40 years old, after all...to be expected,
isn't it? I mean, sense of perspective and all - can you buy a new
flathead engine from Ford these days?
On 28 Nov 2005 16:02:35 -0800, Too_Many_Tools <[email protected]> wrote:
> I understand what you mean BUT I as an informed consumer spend my money
> with companies that SUPPORT my purchase.
Why do you top-post? That really fucks up the flow of the conversation,
you know.
Anyway. These were bought 40 years ago; at least two "old-timer" cycles
through the company. They don't owe me a damn thing.
> If you as a tool company want my business, you need to support the
> product LONG after the purchase.
(shrug) good luck finding one that does that.
> Otherwise I will shop based on price...and there will always be someone
> cheaper than you.
Your choice. you get what you pay for, after all.
> As for Ford, I drive a 31 year old Ford pickup and I intend to be
> driving it for years to come. If the support for this pickup would
> suddenly not be available because of Ford's shortsightedness, then my
> next vehicle will not be a Ford.
When's the last time you checked? Bet you 20 bucks that something
mission-critical is marked "NLA" in the parts books.
"Greg G." wrote:
>
...
> ... My point was simply that Unisaws
> and DJ-20s now seem to be looked upon as Consumer Products - with all
> the evil that it entails. And I didn't just spend a wad on a Unisaw
> so that it could become obsolete in 7 years - or 20 for that matter.
...
And you still don't know that any of this and the previous rants have
any truth to them.
Unisaws are at the edge of consumer products--and it's been the
explosion of hobby woodworking and the incessant drive of the large
numbers of those folks for cheapest initial cost that has created that
situation.
It seems to me not too long ago there were complaints that Delta wanted
some "exorbitant" price for a part right here in r.w. You can't have it
both ways--it costs money--a _lot_ of money to maintain inventory and/or
tooling to produce parts for every tool ever made for a long time when
many of them have very little demand. If there were still sufficient
folks out there interested in anything except the WalMart price for Saks
Fifth Avenue merchandise the situation wouldn't be _quite_ so difficult
for a manufacturer. I don't think there's much choice for somebody like
Delta to change given the current business climate. If they don't they
probably won't survive and then there really won't be any spare parts.
Of course, the rampant cloning of Delta machinery by 3rd world importers
and all the support they've gotten in the market place is a major factor
as well.
Brian Elfert wrote:
>
> Mike Berger <[email protected]> writes:
>
> >An awful lot of parts for that equipment isn't custom. Typical
> >hardware items that fail should be available for years. And
> >it's not like the design changes drastically every couple of
> >years, at least for the better equipment.
>
> I've heard of people getting parts from Delta for 40 or 50 year old
> Unisaws. A number of the parts for a 40 year old Unisaw are not the same
> as a modern Unisaw.
>
> Will B&D keep these parts around or restock them (If even possible) since
> that particular model of Unisaw has been discontinued for many years?
Hard to say...my understanding from what I was told by a gal on the
phone some time ago when ordering a piece for an old jointer that it
would be sometime in arriving as they would have to have it produced
(machined) in order to supply it...except for castings, I think that's
what they typically did. Once really old castings are out of stock, I
assume it would either take a continuing demand to cause them to
occasionally have another production run.
Frank B may know more specifics...
On 11/28/2005 7:57 PM Dave Hinz mumbled something about the following:
> On 28 Nov 2005 16:02:35 -0800, Too_Many_Tools <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I understand what you mean BUT I as an informed consumer spend my money
>>with companies that SUPPORT my purchase.
>
>
> Why do you top-post? That really fucks up the flow of the conversation,
> you know.
>
He's not top posting, he's not quoting.
--
Odinn
RCOS #7 SENS BS ???
"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshiped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton
Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org
rot13 [email protected] to reply
Mark & Juanita wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 08:18:41 GMT, John B <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> ... snip
>
>>Yep it has even touched us in the 51st state Aust. :)
>>I purchased an item the other day, can't remember what it was but I do
>>recall that the packaging had something similar to the following.
>>"Attention this item may contain products that are considered harmful to
>>your health in the State of California"
>>Shit, I sure am glad that it only effects people living there. ;)
>>regards
>>John
>
>
> Yep, the exact wording is, "Warning: this item contains [or may contain,
> depending on the product] products that are known by the state of
> California to cause cancer" This warning is getting out of control to the
> point that manufacturers are putting it on just about everything they sell.
> i.e, the warning is now totally useless and meaningless -- law of
> unintended consequences strikes again.
>
>
Sort of like the warning here in Oz.
"Not suitable for children under 3" or "Not suitable for children under
3, may contain small parts"
This is on every toy you buy, even those obviously meant for small
baby's and children under 3.
It's a crazy mixed up world ;)
regards
John
Packard Motorcar slogan was "Ask the man that owns one" lives on and
on in my world!
On 28 Nov 2005 16:02:35 -0800, "Too_Many_Tools"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>As for Ford, I drive a 31 year old Ford pickup and I intend to be
>driving it for years to come. If the support for this pickup would
>suddenly not be available because of Ford's shortsightedness, then my
>next vehicle will not be a Ford.
>
>Brand loyalty does not come for free...it is earned....a point that
>company management often forgets.
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:22:38 -0600, Duane Bozarth
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Brian Elfert wrote:
>>
>> Mike Berger <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>> >An awful lot of parts for that equipment isn't custom. Typical
>> >hardware items that fail should be available for years. And
>> >it's not like the design changes drastically every couple of
>> >years, at least for the better equipment.
>>
>> I've heard of people getting parts from Delta for 40 or 50 year old
>> Unisaws. A number of the parts for a 40 year old Unisaw are not the same
>> as a modern Unisaw.
>>
>> Will B&D keep these parts around or restock them (If even possible) since
>> that particular model of Unisaw has been discontinued for many years?
>
>Hard to say...my understanding from what I was told by a gal on the
>phone some time ago when ordering a piece for an old jointer that it
>would be sometime in arriving as they would have to have it produced
>(machined) in order to supply it...except for castings, I think that's
>what they typically did. Once really old castings are out of stock, I
>assume it would either take a continuing demand to cause them to
>occasionally have another production run.
>
>Frank B may know more specifics...
With regard to castings, many times foundries will pressure companies
to remove their patterns if they are not giving orders on a regular
and consistent basis. They do this by either raising the price on the
casting or more directly by telling you to get your patterns out or
they will destroy them.
If the demand has fallen to the extent that the foundry will no longer
house the pattern, the company will generally do what they call a
"lifetime supply" order which is a statistical calculation that takes
into account the falling demand and the past historical use. I'm not
certain what the variables are, but it is not always perfect and,
certainly you can run out before all the machines wear out.
Delta is probably the industry leader when it comes to servicing old
machines. I say that because I had my regular production interfered
with every month to produce service requirements for machines that had
not been in regular production for decades..
It is not B & D that worries me with regard to service parts but the
trend to far eastern suppliers. They typically will not service
obsolete machines forcing the selling company to change their service
part philosophy just because they can't get the parts at any
reasonable cost.
Still waiting for the source and confirmation on the B & D six year
cuttoff on obsolete industrial machinery service support. I don't
believe it.
Frank
On 28 Nov 2005 23:00:53 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 28 Nov 2005 14:43:30 -0800, Too_Many_Tools <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Some of you may have Rockwell/Delta metalworking equiipment. If you
>> have any, you would know that there has been NO parts available these
>> machines for years and users have to rebuild the machines themselves.
>
>Well, my Rockwell tools _are_ 40 years old, after all...to be expected,
>isn't it? I mean, sense of perspective and all - can you buy a new
>flathead engine from Ford these days?
Maybe not from Ford, but for more popular versions of various things (in
my case, tractor parts), there are OEM-spec producers who produce various
parts to original spec (at least the good ones do). That, and old parts
from machine being parted out can keep old stuff going for a long time.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 00:48:29 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Wonder how long it will be before ads for products will carry the lable "not
>available in California"?
Creating a whole new set of opportunities for somebody... <G>
Barry
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 05:24:58 +0000, joe2 <[email protected]>
wrote:
>> joe2 wrote:
>>
>
>Oh, one last thing, it is almost impossible to sell something as as
>is in Calif. Keep that in mind the next time you buy something from a
>business or Power Seller on Ebay, a Calif corporation.
So how does that work when an individual sells his old whatever to
someone. It can't be sold "as is"? This is seemingly just a big yard
sale for some people.
Charlie Self wrote:
> Lawrence Wasserman wrote:
>
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>CW <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Wonder how long it will be before ads for products will carry the lable "not
>>>available in California"?
>>
>><...snipped...>
>>
>>I've noticed certain products that had that disclaimer for several
>>years now...
>>
>
>
> Many finishes are listed as "Not For Sale In California." IIRC, CA has
> the tightest VOC laws in the country, to the point of ridulousness in
> some cases. The finish manufacturers that make material that would run
> up againt the regulations simply label it as above. It can drive mail
> order retailers nuts, but is a good move for most of us in the other 49
> states.
>
Yep it has even touched us in the 51st state Aust. :)
I purchased an item the other day, can't remember what it was but I do
recall that the packaging had something similar to the following.
"Attention this item may contain products that are considered harmful to
your health in the State of California"
Shit, I sure am glad that it only effects people living there. ;)
regards
John
Definitely a different paradigm.
I was talking about electronics *component* mfgrs.
Sorry I didn't make that clear.
After spending so many years in the component business I guess
I kind of had my blinders on re the consumer guys. I agree
with you there.
Art
"Greg G." wrote in message
>
> We're talking a different paradigm here. This isn't Tektronix and a
> contract on military oscilloscopes, or Fairchild supplying 74F293s to
> a military or commercial manufacturer.
>
> I'm talking consumer electronics - consumer equipment manufacturers.
> They determine the EOL date when the model is introduced - this keeps
> inventory at a minimum and support and obsolescence at a fixed point.
"Greg G." wrote in message
> So, B&D, what possible reason could anyone have to chose your brands
> over, say, some no-name Chinese import?
Hell ... no need to chose, they all come from the same factory any way.
>I assume the other holdings,
> such as Dewalt, Porter-Cable, DeVilbiss, Oldham and FLEX will also
> follow suit? Talk about the BORG...
>
> Idiot modern era MBA's.
Yep, still chuckling over the glowing reports earlier this week on how
dedicated to "value" B & D is ... my ass!
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/05
> Hell ... no need to chose, they all come from the same factory any way.
Ain't that the truth, I'm beginning to think every tool or part out there is
made by the same China Manufacture and only the name stamped on it is
changed.
Damn doesn't Delta and B&D own Porter Cable? Damn most of my hand power
tools are Porter Cable. Who owns Bosch, Milwaukee, and Dewalt, these days?
Rich
--
"you can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
I doubt it is as irritated as those of who detest having to scroll to the
bottom to read anything significant feel.
"Dave Balderstone" <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca> wrote in message
news:281120052104263720%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca...
> People who incessantly complain about top-posting deserve the
> irritation they feel as a result of the top-posting.
>
> "Balderstone's Postulate"
"John Dill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> If any of you out there have any older Delta equipment, be advised that
> Delta ( B&D) is dropping a lot of parts/support for older tools. B&D
> sunset policy is 6 years for parts support. Better order what you need
> now, if it isn't already too late... John
Actually it might be a good idea of those on the REC wrote to B&D and
expressed their feelings about the policy - bitching here does little
good...
BB
"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in ignorance:
<snip>
> Electronics manufacturers started doing this years ago, and will place
> dates on the microfiche and computer parts lists. To the day that the
> parts are no longer required by law to be stocked, they are loaded
> into garbage rams and crushed. Employees are not allowed to take them
> home, they do not donate them to a worthy cause, and you cannot buy
> them as surplus. They are after the tax write-offs and accelerated
> obsolescence of equipment in the field.
<snip>
> Greg G.
Not quite.
Decades ago I worked for an electronics manufacturer and
we surplused off some obsolete product inventory to the bottom
feeders. They did not take adequate handling measures and
introduced Electro-Static Damage to the parts (ESD does not
always cause immediate failure and often results in infant mortality).
The customers they sold the damaged parts to looked to us, as the
manufacturer, to provide warrantee replacement/refund. Of course
we wouldn't do this and explained why. The end result was that
our reputation got tarnished. Ergo everything was crushed from
then on. The tax write off was incidental. The accelerated
obsolescence statement is pure bullshit as we informed all our
customers (who had purchased any parts over the past 5 years)
of the impending End-Of-Life for the parts and gave them 1 year to
order parts for their lifetime repair needs. This is now pretty much
standard procedure for EOL'ing a part in the electronics industry.
There are also no laws which I am aware of which require stocking
of electronic parts. Military suppliers excepted.
Art
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:22:45 -0500, John Dill <[email protected]>
wrote:
>If any of you out there have any older Delta equipment, be advised that
>Delta ( B&D) is dropping a lot of parts/support for older tools. B&D
>sunset policy is 6 years for parts support. Better order what you need
>now, if it isn't already too late... John
I've been gone, noticed this created a fairly long thread.
I would like to know the source that supports the statement that B & D
is going to stop servicing industrial machinery six years from the
date of discontinuance of the model. Or is that not what the OP
meant?
Frank
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:22:45 -0500, John Dill <[email protected]>
wrote:
>If any of you out there have any older Delta equipment, be advised that
>Delta ( B&D) is dropping a lot of parts/support for older tools. B&D
>sunset policy is 6 years for parts support. Better order what you need
>now, if it isn't already too late... John
I have to wonder what B&D is thinking. Do they honestly believe that
a tool with the kind of price tag a Unisaw or DJ-20 has shouldn't have
repair parts available for a MUCH longer period of time than 6 years?
Parts availability is one reason I bought a DJ-20! I want that
jointer to be my lifetime purchase.
Woodworking is going to be prohibitively expensive as a hobby if a
major tool has to be replaced everytime it breaks after 6 years for
lack of a part. And maybe too expensive for a small professional shop
too.
A cordless drill? A belt sander? A router? Well, maybe replacement
is better than repair. But maybe not. It depends on the part. For
example, I've got a big PC plunge router (model 7539) that lost it's
cord. I've had it for a long time. I'd have hated to have had to
toss it just because of a simple part like a cord. Fortunately a
repair cord was available.
I think that the tool manufacturers should be very careful about this.
Unlike the sited example of consumer electronics, models don't change
all that fast and some of the tools sold to tradesmen and hobbyists
alike are very expensive and worthy of repair. There's also the
matter of brand loyalty. While I may not buy a PC example in every
category, my present experience makes them the starting point when I'm
looking for a new tool. In one category, I've got multiples (routers)
And even if I choose a different brand, I'm buying "top shelf" stuff.
DeWalt, Bosch, Milwaukee, Makita, etc, etc.
Why buy the "best" if repair isn't available? Surely they make more
profit on a PC router than a B&D router! Wouldn't they want to
protect that?
An awful lot of parts for that equipment isn't custom. Typical
hardware items that fail should be available for years. And
it's not like the design changes drastically every couple of
years, at least for the better equipment.
John Dill wrote:
> If any of you out there have any older Delta equipment, be advised that
> Delta ( B&D) is dropping a lot of parts/support for older tools. B&D
> sunset policy is 6 years for parts support. Better order what you need
> now, if it isn't already too late... John
No kidding about the cost of living here. I am a fourth generation
Californian with a Bachelors degree from UC Davis and I can't buy a
house within 200 miles of where I grew up. This is getting ridiculous.
Dan
Mark & Juanita wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 03:02:49 GMT, George Max
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 01:09:16 GMT, Ba r r y
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 00:48:29 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Wonder how long it will be before ads for products will carry the lable "not
>>>>available in California"?
>>>
>>>Creating a whole new set of opportunities for somebody... <G>
>>>
>>>Barry
>>
>>Sure. But at higher cost than anywhere else. Again, opening
>>opportunities for retailers just across the border.
>>
>
>
> Interesting thought. California's laws and regulations are rapidly
> making it too expensive to do business in or with California. I'm
> surprised that my company still has a presence in California given the cost
> of living (I've hired people from one of our divisions in California who
> were looking to get out because they were tired of living like college
> students with roomates and in apartments because they couldn't afford
> housing) as well as the cost of complying with all of the regulations in
> California, especially when we are so concerned about overhead costs.
>
> However, I wonder if those laws and regulations apply to goods imported
> from Mexico. Say someone were to set up a business just across the border
> exporting that type of goods to Californians, would the same laws apply?
> How would they be enforced since states have no authority to regulate
> interstate or foreign commerce. An opportunity indeed for someone.
>
>
>
>
> +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
>
> If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough
>
> +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 15:37:45 -0500, Bob G. <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 18:54:21 +0000, joe2 <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>>Not for those in California. If you have something that plugs into the
>>wall, California REQUIRES the manf to have parts on hand to exact any
>>warranty repair for 3-years after the item is sold, regardless of the
>>term of the written warranty. And, manfs are required to have all
>>parts available for 7-years after the product is sold. Its not
>>Deltas choice to make
in California.
>>
>It was my understanding That
>
>this law applies ONLY to Manufacturers Based in California or who have
>Factory stores in California... a Manufacturer based in another State,
>or Counrty has no legal obligation under the law...
>
>I do not live in the Rebublic of Kalifornia...and I honestly am glad I
>do not.... That said...its cold outside so maybe I'll rethink
>everything
>
Then come to a place like Arizona, Florida, or Texas -- we need people to
dilute the Californians moving here.
>Bob G.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Wood Butcher said:
>"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in ignorance:
><snip>
>> Electronics manufacturers started doing this years ago, and will place
>> dates on the microfiche and computer parts lists. To the day that the
>> parts are no longer required by law to be stocked, they are loaded
>> into garbage rams and crushed. Employees are not allowed to take them
>> home, they do not donate them to a worthy cause, and you cannot buy
>> them as surplus. They are after the tax write-offs and accelerated
>> obsolescence of equipment in the field.
><snip>
>> Greg G.
>
>
>Not quite.
Yes, quite.
>Decades ago I worked for an electronics manufacturer and
>we surplused off some obsolete product inventory to the bottom
>feeders. They did not take adequate handling measures and
>introduced Electro-Static Damage to the parts (ESD does not
>always cause immediate failure and often results in infant mortality).
>The customers they sold the damaged parts to looked to us, as the
>manufacturer, to provide warrantee replacement/refund. Of course
>we wouldn't do this and explained why. The end result was that
>our reputation got tarnished. Ergo everything was crushed from
>then on. The tax write off was incidental. The accelerated
>obsolescence statement is pure bullshit as we informed all our
>customers (who had purchased any parts over the past 5 years)
>of the impending End-Of-Life for the parts and gave them 1 year to
>order parts for their lifetime repair needs. This is now pretty much
>standard procedure for EOL'ing a part in the electronics industry.
Mil contract Tektronix oscilloscope repair - This Decade:
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/ScopeHell02.jpg
We're talking a different paradigm here. This isn't Tektronix and a
contract on military oscilloscopes, or Fairchild supplying 74F293s to
a military or commercial manufacturer.
I'm talking consumer electronics - consumer equipment manufacturers.
They determine the EOL date when the model is introduced - this keeps
inventory at a minimum and support and obsolescence at a fixed point.
Bullshit? Hardly - consumer stuff is designed for specific life span.
You can often acquire a replacement part from the OEM, but not always.
Most brands use generic IC's, except for the masked-rom micros, but
not always. JVC, for instance, is fond of customizing LSIs, and then
discontinuing them before the sets are _actually_ EOL. They determine
the EOL date, not the unit's age, condition, or customer's desire.
ESD stands for Electro Static Discharge...
Damage is what you get afterwards... <g>
And I seriously doubt that ESD semiconductor moleholes were the reason
behind crushing 200,000 resistors, a truckload of 25XP22 CRTs, and
hundreds of various cabinet and mechanical parts.
>There are also no laws which I am aware of which require stocking
>of electronic parts. Military suppliers excepted.
Again - _Consumer_ equipment manufacturers used to be required to
stock replacement parts for a specific number of years - seven, I
believe. No one seems to be enforcing these things anymore, however.
Do they even enforce this anymore for other home appliances like
washers, dryers, and refrigerators? Consumer Products like Unisaws?
I personally had hoped to use my Unisaw longer than 7 years, or any
other arbitrary date limit determined by another.
Greg G.
On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 03:02:49 GMT, George Max
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 01:09:16 GMT, Ba r r y
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 00:48:29 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Wonder how long it will be before ads for products will carry the lable "not
>>>available in California"?
>>
>>Creating a whole new set of opportunities for somebody... <G>
>>
>>Barry
>
>Sure. But at higher cost than anywhere else. Again, opening
>opportunities for retailers just across the border.
>
Interesting thought. California's laws and regulations are rapidly
making it too expensive to do business in or with California. I'm
surprised that my company still has a presence in California given the cost
of living (I've hired people from one of our divisions in California who
were looking to get out because they were tired of living like college
students with roomates and in apartments because they couldn't afford
housing) as well as the cost of complying with all of the regulations in
California, especially when we are so concerned about overhead costs.
However, I wonder if those laws and regulations apply to goods imported
from Mexico. Say someone were to set up a business just across the border
exporting that type of goods to Californians, would the same laws apply?
How would they be enforced since states have no authority to regulate
interstate or foreign commerce. An opportunity indeed for someone.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
John Dill said:
>If any of you out there have any older Delta equipment, be advised that
>Delta ( B&D) is dropping a lot of parts/support for older tools. B&D
>sunset policy is 6 years for parts support. Better order what you need
>now, if it isn't already too late... John
My worst fears confirmed _if_ this is, in fact, true.
Electronics manufacturers started doing this years ago, and will place
dates on the microfiche and computer parts lists. To the day that the
parts are no longer required by law to be stocked, they are loaded
into garbage rams and crushed. Employees are not allowed to take them
home, they do not donate them to a worthy cause, and you cannot buy
them as surplus. They are after the tax write-offs and accelerated
obsolescence of equipment in the field.
Add yet _another_ brand to the list of mismanaged companies I will not
consider buying from. One of Delta's stronger points was the
retention of parts needed for repairing older equipment.
So, B&D, what possible reason could anyone have to chose your brands
over, say, some no-name Chinese import? I assume the other holdings,
such as Dewalt, Porter-Cable, DeVilbiss, Oldham and FLEX will also
follow suit? Talk about the BORG...
Idiot modern era MBA's.
Greg G.
On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 01:09:16 GMT, Ba r r y
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 00:48:29 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Wonder how long it will be before ads for products will carry the lable "not
>>available in California"?
>
>Creating a whole new set of opportunities for somebody... <G>
>
>Barry
Sure. But at higher cost than anywhere else. Again, opening
opportunities for retailers just across the border.
John Dill Wrote:
> If any of you out there have any older Delta equipment, be advised that
> Delta ( B&D) is dropping a lot of parts/support for older tools. B&D
> sunset policy is 6 years for parts support. Better order what you
> need
> now, if it isn't already too late... John
Not for those in California. If you have something that plugs into the
wall, California REQUIRES the manf to have parts on hand to exact any
warranty repair for 3-years after the item is sold, regardless of the
term of the written warranty. And, manfs are required to have all
parts available for 7-years after the product is sold. Its not
Deltas choice to make
in California.
Calif has some wicked-cool consumer protection laws. Manfs are
required to maintain warranty repair facilities in the vicinity of
where the product is sold, a toll-free 800 number must be provided with
the item, if something needs warranty repair, the warranty is frozen in
place until the product is repaired (as of Jan 05 consumers must be
notified in writing of this) and after repair the warranty resumes
where it left off.
Any manf that thinks they will dump repair issues on the consumer needs
to think again. Calif law makes all retailers of electrical/electronic
products a warranty drop-of station, and makes the retailer liable for
the warranty repairs. There are laws that allow retailers to collect
damages from the manf, but it is all transparent to the consumer.
Basically, if Delta wont step up to the plate, any local Delta
retailer can be hauled into small claims court, then the retailer can
withhold payment on goods they receive from Delta.
Should my Delta Unisaw ever require warranty repair, Delta is REQUIRED
to come to my home and do the repair, or pick the saw, fix it and
return it at no charge to me. Anything that uses electricity, weights
more than 70-lbs, is awkward to carry, or is installed is required to
be repaired in at the home or pick up and deliver is to be arranged and
paid for by the manf. AT 300+ lbs, its definitely Deltas problem
or
at least a local Delta retailers problem.
Oh, and if Delta doesnt complete the repairs within 30-days, they are
required to buy back the product.
--
joe2
John Dill Wrote:
> joe2 wrote:
>
> Should my Delta Unisaw ever require warranty repair, Delta is REQUIRED
> to come to my home and do the repair, or pick the saw, fix it and
>
>
>
> Yeah, good luck with that one. Let me know how it turns out...
Rarely is it ever a problem. Manfs and retailers know the rules and
everyone just goes along with it. Fwiw, most products never see
warranty repairs anyways.
Important stuff first: EVERYONE should check with their states
warranty laws. They are all different, there are many laws out there
to protect consumers, many folks arent even aware of them. Also, see
the Magnuson-Moss Act, the fed law regarding warranties. Most folks I
know dont have a clue about warranties. If Delta sells the same
Unisaw with a 2-yr warranty (costs less) and a 5-yr warranty (costs
more), both saws have the same implied warranty of 5-years. Some
states do not allow the manf to limit the implied warranty, some do.
Now the babbling: Calif can adopt aggressive consumer protection laws
because the state has a huge population and thus a huge retail sales
base. The only thing new about Califs warranty laws are that
consumers must now be given notice in writing that their warranty is
frozen in place pending repair and return of the item. The laws apply
to any manf that distributes product in this state, regardless of
origin of manf or distribution. Calif can and does reach across state
line to pursue civil and criminal actions against manfs.
In a nutshell, Calif decided electrical junk would not be sold here.
Likewise, retailers cant try to snag a quick buck buy pawning off
garbage. Think of it as being responsible for your own actions (a
novel idea), but in this case its the manf and retailers that need to
be responsible for their own actions. Not a bad thing. Any manf
making a quality product has no worries. Manfs of shoddy product
should worry
Calif is one of several states that does not allow a manf
to limit liability for consequential damages resulting from the use of
a product.
Many of Califs laws have had a ripple effect across all the states,
i.e. requiring a toll free number to call if you need repairs and/or
proving a list of repair centers with the product. It is easier to
provided a toll free number and a list of repair centers for all 50
states than to just do it for Calif residents then try to explain to
the other 49 states why they arent worthy of the same service. Same
for product registration, Calif forbids a manf from requiring the
return of a warranty card or the registration of a product, nor can a
manf require any kind of internet registration. It is easier to make
product/warranty registration optional for everyone than try to keep
Calif separate.
My personal favs are Califs laws that prevent manfs, distributors,
and/or sellers from doing anything that diminishes a warranty. And
extended warranties cant parallel the manfs warranty, they start when
the manfs warranty ends. The increasingly popular scheme where manfs
engage in price-fixing by saying that you must buy their product from
an authorized dealer or you dont get a product warranty only works in
the other 49 states
not in California, because the manf is prohibited
from diminishing the original warranty.
Fed law already prevents a manf from controlling product distribution,
i.e. you can buy something at Sams Club or Costco and resell it as new
product in your own local shop if you want to, and the warranty stays in
effect as it would with any new product. Thats a federal law.
Claiming not for sell in California isnt going to cut it. Every
item sold in the USA comes with an implied warranty of fitness
(Magnuson-Moss Act).
Just so you dont think all is bad in here Arnolds Kingdom, new for
2005 are some absolutely wicked anti-spam and anti-spyware laws. Calif
has cases pending against 3 companies, one in Calif, one outside Calif,
and I dont recall where the third company is. Their fines are each
$1-million per day for everyday they distributed email spam. I suspect
as word gets around spam will decline for everyone in all 50 states
since there is no way to know which state a computer (laptop) occupies
at any given time. Websites accessible in Calif cannot automatically
add you to their spam list. You must check a box that says add me,
not one that says dont add me. Theres also some new stuff
regarding active software you do not know about or consent to, i.e.
spyware and beacons, but I havent had time to follow it.
Oh, one last thing, it is almost impossible to sell something as as
is in Calif. Keep that in mind the next time you buy something from a
business or Power Seller on Ebay, a Calif corporation.
--
joe2
Wood Butcher said:
>Definitely a different paradigm.
>I was talking about electronics *component* mfgrs.
>Sorry I didn't make that clear.
>After spending so many years in the component business I guess
>I kind of had my blinders on re the consumer guys. I agree
>with you there.
>
>Art
That's OK, Art - I figured as much. My point was simply that Unisaws
and DJ-20s now seem to be looked upon as Consumer Products - with all
the evil that it entails. And I didn't just spend a wad on a Unisaw
so that it could become obsolete in 7 years - or 20 for that matter.
That's one reason I got away from electronics in general. :-\
>"Greg G." wrote in message
>>
>> We're talking a different paradigm here. This isn't Tektronix and a
>> contract on military oscilloscopes, or Fairchild supplying 74F293s to
>> a military or commercial manufacturer.
>>
>> I'm talking consumer electronics - consumer equipment manufacturers.
>> They determine the EOL date when the model is introduced - this keeps
>> inventory at a minimum and support and obsolescence at a fixed point.
>
Greg G.
Sherwin Williams store on southern CALIF coast can't stock Fast Dry
Oil Varnish in gallons because of VOC regs but CAN stock Qts.
On 28 Nov 2005 13:09:15 -0800, "Charlie Self" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>Lawrence Wasserman wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> CW <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >Wonder how long it will be before ads for products will carry the lable "not
>> >available in California"?
>> <...snipped...>
>>
>> I've noticed certain products that had that disclaimer for several
>> years now...
>>
>
>Many finishes are listed as "Not For Sale In California." IIRC, CA has
>the tightest VOC laws in the country, to the point of ridulousness in
>some cases. The finish manufacturers that make material that would run
>up againt the regulations simply label it as above. It can drive mail
>order retailers nuts, but is a good move for most of us in the other 49
>states.
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 20:21:27 -0700, Mark & Juanita
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 03:02:49 GMT, George Max
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 01:09:16 GMT, Ba r r y
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 00:48:29 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Wonder how long it will be before ads for products will carry the lable "not
>>>>available in California"?
>>>
>>>Creating a whole new set of opportunities for somebody... <G>
>>>
>>>Barry
>>
>>Sure. But at higher cost than anywhere else. Again, opening
>>opportunities for retailers just across the border.
>>
>
> Interesting thought. California's laws and regulations are rapidly
>making it too expensive to do business in or with California.
>
> However, I wonder if those laws and regulations apply to goods imported
>from Mexico. Say someone were to set up a business just across the border
>exporting that type of goods to Californians, would the same laws apply?
>How would they be enforced since states have no authority to regulate
>interstate or foreign commerce. An opportunity indeed for someone.
>
>
I hadn't thought of Mexico, but that's even better. What I was
thinking of was Arizona, Nevada and Oregon. Assuming of course, that
their laws were less restrictive than California's.
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 18:54:21 +0000, joe2 <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>
>Not for those in California. If you have something that plugs into the
>wall, California REQUIRES the manf to have parts on hand to exact any
>warranty repair for 3-years after the item is sold, regardless of the
>term of the written warranty. And, manfs are required to have all
>parts available for 7-years after the product is sold. Its not
>Deltas choice to make
in California.
>
It was my understanding That
this law applies ONLY to Manufacturers Based in California or who have
Factory stores in California... a Manufacturer based in another State,
or Counrty has no legal obligation under the law...
I do not live in the Rebublic of Kalifornia...and I honestly am glad I
do not.... That said...its cold outside so maybe I'll rethink
everything
Bob G.
Wonder how long it will be before ads for products will carry the lable "not
available in California"?
"joe2" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> John Dill Wrote:
> > If any of you out there have any older Delta equipment, be advised that
> > Delta ( B&D) is dropping a lot of parts/support for older tools. B&D
> > sunset policy is 6 years for parts support. Better order what you
> > need
> > now, if it isn't already too late... John
>
>
>
> Not for those in California. If you have something that plugs into the
> wall, California REQUIRES the manf to have parts on hand to exact any
> warranty repair for 3-years after the item is sold, regardless of the
> term of the written warranty. And, manfs are required to have all
> parts available for 7-years after the product is sold. It's not
> Delta's choice to make.in California.
>
> Calif has some wicked-cool consumer protection laws. Manfs are
> required to maintain warranty repair facilities in the vicinity of
> where the product is sold, a toll-free 800 number must be provided with
> the item, if something needs warranty repair, the warranty is frozen in
> place until the product is repaired (as of Jan '05 consumers must be
> notified in writing of this) and after repair the warranty resumes
> where it left off.
>
> Any manf that thinks they will dump repair issues on the consumer needs
> to think again. Calif law makes all retailers of electrical/electronic
> products a warranty drop-of station, and makes the retailer liable for
> the warranty repairs. There are laws that allow retailers to collect
> damages from the manf, but it is all transparent to the consumer.
> Basically, if Delta won't step up to the plate, any local Delta
> retailer can be hauled into small claims court, then the retailer can
> withhold payment on goods they receive from Delta.
>
> Should my Delta Unisaw ever require warranty repair, Delta is REQUIRED
> to come to my home and do the repair, or pick the saw, fix it and
> return it at no charge to me. Anything that uses electricity, weights
> more than 70-lbs, is awkward to carry, or is 'installed' is required to
> be repaired in at the home or pick up and deliver is to be arranged and
> paid for by the manf. AT 300+ lbs, it's definitely Delta's problem.or
> at least a local Delta retailer's problem.
>
> Oh, and if Delta doesn't complete the repairs within 30-days, they are
> required to buy back the product.
>
>
> --
> joe2
All kinds of things will kill you in California. It's much safer to live
somewhere else.
"John B" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:B9Uif.6404$ea6.3636@news-> >
> "Attention this item may contain products that are considered harmful to
> your health in the State of California"
> Shit, I sure am glad that it only effects people living there. ;)
> regards
> John