About 3/4ths of my basement is finished into a family room, the remaining=
1/4 has been walled off for my wood shop, this gives me the comfort of air=
conditioning and heating. My problem is the odors and fumes created when =
refinishing my wood projects are going through out the house. Can I install=
some kind of exhaust fan to vent those odors and fume to the outside witho=
ut affecting my heating and air conditioning, would a bathroom type venting=
fan work or would a larger system be required?
On Monday, August 1, 2016 at 4:45:08 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
> About 3/4ths of my basement is finished into a family room, the remaining 1/4 has
>been walled off for my wood shop...
> Can I install some kind of exhaust fan to vent those odors and fume to the outside
> without affecting my heating and air conditioning
Back when taverns allowed smoking, there were boxes on the ceiling that
filtered the smoke out. Electrostatic air cleaners, they glommed dust and odors
with ion generators. Every so often you had to put the 'filter' elements through a
dishwasher. Home units were available to bolt into your air-handler.
<http://www.carrier.com/residential/en/us/products/indoor-air-quality/air-purifiers/pgapa/>
Not sure how economic they are, though. There's also "heat recovery ventilator" systems
that do the task you have in mind, more efficiently than just opening a window.<http://www.carrier.com/residential/en/us/products/indoor-air-quality/ventilators/ervxxnva1090/>
Find an HVAC outfit and ask questions...
On Wednesday, August 3, 2016 at 7:13:25 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Aug 2016 21:02:03 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >Back when taverns allowed smoking, there were boxes on the ceiling that
> >filtered the smoke out. Electrostatic air cleaners, they glommed dust and odors
> >with ion generators.
> That might work well with pain overspray (though cleaning dried paint
> off the filters may be a problem) but electrostatic filters aren't
> going to do anything for VOCs.
No, I'm not talking about 'electrostatic air filters', I'm talking about the equivalent
of smokestack scrubbers. Similar names, different stuff. Electrostatic air cleaners ionize
and collect organic molecules... and it takes an ion generator to do that (corona
on thin wires). So-called 'electrostatic air filters' use an electret (kinda like a permanent
magnet) to collect dust.
On Saturday, August 6, 2016 at 1:55:31 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> > > >Back when taverns allowed smoking, there were boxes on the ceiling that
> > > >filtered the smoke out. Electrostatic air cleaners, they glommed dust and odors
> > > >with ion generators.
> > Electrostatic air cleaners ionize
> > and collect organic molecules... and it takes an ion generator to do that (corona
> > on thin wires).
>
> Source? (For the "collect organic molecules" part, not for the "corona
> on thin wires" part. )
Apparently one needs to search for 'electrostatic precipitator' to get any hits.
Wikipedia article leads to this paper, which seems relevant, if somewhat limited in scope
<http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02786829808965555>
To remove volatiles effectively, you need to trap them, either chemically or in a solvent,
at the collecting plates.
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> On Wednesday, August 3, 2016 at 7:13:25 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
> > On Tue, 2 Aug 2016 21:02:03 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
>
> > >Back when taverns allowed smoking, there were boxes on the ceiling that
> > >filtered the smoke out. Electrostatic air cleaners, they glommed dust and odors
> > >with ion generators.
>
> > That might work well with pain overspray (though cleaning dried paint
> > off the filters may be a problem) but electrostatic filters aren't
> > going to do anything for VOCs.
>
> No, I'm not talking about 'electrostatic air filters', I'm talking about the equivalent
> of smokestack scrubbers. Similar names, different stuff. Electrostatic air cleaners ionize
> and collect organic molecules... and it takes an ion generator to do that (corona
> on thin wires).
Source? (For the "collect organic molecules" part, not for the "corona
on thin wires" part. )
> So-called 'electrostatic air filters' use an electret (kinda like a
> permanent
> magnet) to collect dust.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> John McCoy <[email protected]> writes:
> >[email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:
> >
> >> On Tue, 2 Aug 2016 15:11:21 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>>Depending on what your fumes are and their intensity, you
> >>>might need a fan rated for flammable vapors.
> >>
> >> It would be _really_ unusual to have an air mixture above the
> >> flammability (or explosive) limit. If the concentration in the room
> >> were that high, the room would blow anyway. IMO, this is sorta like
> >> the "ground your DC so you don't have a dust explosion" sort of thing.
> >
> >Well, I don't know...what if he chose to build a spraybooth
> >type enclosure, to help ensure all the fumes go out the vent?
> >Seems like you could end up with a situation where the
> >concentration at the fan was pretty high.
>
> Even if the vapors are not at the correct stoichiometric ratio
> for an explosion, they're still flamable. Using a correctly rated fan is
> simple common sense.
There's an upper and lower bound for combustibility, "stoichometric
ratio" doesn't enter into it.
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> On Saturday, August 6, 2016 at 1:55:31 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > [email protected] says...
>
> > > > >Back when taverns allowed smoking, there were boxes on the ceiling that
> > > > >filtered the smoke out. Electrostatic air cleaners, they glommed dust and odors
> > > > >with ion generators.
> > > Electrostatic air cleaners ionize
> > > and collect organic molecules... and it takes an ion generator to do that (corona
> > > on thin wires).
> >
> > Source? (For the "collect organic molecules" part, not for the "corona
> > on thin wires" part. )
>
> Apparently one needs to search for 'electrostatic precipitator' to get any hits.
> Wikipedia article leads to this paper, which seems relevant, if somewhat limited in scope
> <http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02786829808965555>
>
> To remove volatiles effectively, you need to trap them, either chemically or in a solvent,
> at the collecting plates.
That paper says that silicone sprays will wreck your precipitron, not
that a precipitron is an effective method of removing organic molecules.
[email protected] wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> About 3/4ths of my basement is finished into a family room, the
> remaining 1/4 has been walled off for my wood shop, this gives me
> the comfort of air conditioning and heating. My problem is the
> odors and fumes created when refinishing my wood projects are going
> through out the house. Can I install some kind of exhaust fan to
> vent those odors and fume to the outside without affecting my
> heating and air conditioning,
As Sonny suggested, you have to consider where the air is
coming from to replace what you are venting to the outside.
If it's coming from the air conditioned/heated part of the
house, then yes, it will affect your heating and AC.
> would a bathroom type venting fan work
> or would a larger system be required?
Depending on what your fumes are and their intensity, you
might need a fan rated for flammable vapors.
Ideally you'd have two fans, or a two speed fan - so you
can have a higher flow rate while you're actually doing
the finishing work, and a lower one while the project is
drying (e.g. overnight).
John
[email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:
> On Tue, 2 Aug 2016 15:11:21 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Depending on what your fumes are and their intensity, you
>>might need a fan rated for flammable vapors.
>
> It would be _really_ unusual to have an air mixture above the
> flammability (or explosive) limit. If the concentration in the room
> were that high, the room would blow anyway. IMO, this is sorta like
> the "ground your DC so you don't have a dust explosion" sort of thing.
Well, I don't know...what if he chose to build a spraybooth
type enclosure, to help ensure all the fumes go out the vent?
Seems like you could end up with a situation where the
concentration at the fan was pretty high.
Probably not an issue, but worth taking a moment to think about.
John
On Monday, August 1, 2016 at 6:45:08 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
> Can I install some kind of exhaust fan to vent those odors and fume to the outside without affecting my heating and air conditioning, would a bathroom type venting fan work or would a larger system be required?
Probably. How much square/cubic footage is your shop area? Do you have a window in your work area, to modify, maybe for a fan or other exhaust (and air intake?) unit.
If practical: Consider an intake air supply, also, rather than the outgoing ducting removing the AC/heated air. Close the AC/heat vents prior to finishing, at least for some circumstances.
Also, possibly, drape off (temporarily) your finishing area, so that the fumed air flow would be mostly/best guided toward the exit fan, only.... i.e., least amount to mix with the fresh air, coming in.
Sonny
On Tue, 2 Aug 2016 15:11:21 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> About 3/4ths of my basement is finished into a family room, the
>> remaining 1/4 has been walled off for my wood shop, this gives me
>> the comfort of air conditioning and heating. My problem is the
>> odors and fumes created when refinishing my wood projects are going
>> through out the house. Can I install some kind of exhaust fan to
>> vent those odors and fume to the outside without affecting my
>> heating and air conditioning,
>
>As Sonny suggested, you have to consider where the air is
>coming from to replace what you are venting to the outside.
>If it's coming from the air conditioned/heated part of the
>house, then yes, it will affect your heating and AC.
Not to mention moisture content. Bringing warm, moist, air into a
basement isn't a good idea.
>> would a bathroom type venting fan work
>> or would a larger system be required?
>
>Depending on what your fumes are and their intensity, you
>might need a fan rated for flammable vapors.
It would be _really_ unusual to have an air mixture above the
flammability (or explosive) limit. If the concentration in the room
were that high, the room would blow anyway. IMO, this is sorta like
the "ground your DC so you don't have a dust explosion" sort of thing.
>
>Ideally you'd have two fans, or a two speed fan - so you
>can have a higher flow rate while you're actually doing
>the finishing work, and a lower one while the project is
>drying (e.g. overnight).
>
>John
On Tue, 2 Aug 2016 21:02:03 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On Monday, August 1, 2016 at 4:45:08 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
>> About 3/4ths of my basement is finished into a family room, the remaining 1/4 has
>>been walled off for my wood shop...
>> Can I install some kind of exhaust fan to vent those odors and fume to the outside
>> without affecting my heating and air conditioning
>
>Back when taverns allowed smoking, there were boxes on the ceiling that
>filtered the smoke out. Electrostatic air cleaners, they glommed dust and odors
>with ion generators. Every so often you had to put the 'filter' elements through a
>dishwasher. Home units were available to bolt into your air-handler.
><http://www.carrier.com/residential/en/us/products/indoor-air-quality/air-purifiers/pgapa/>
>
>Not sure how economic they are, though. There's also "heat recovery ventilator" systems
>that do the task you have in mind, more efficiently than just opening a window.<http://www.carrier.com/residential/en/us/products/indoor-air-quality/ventilators/ervxxnva1090/>
That might work well with pain overspray (though cleaning dried paint
off the filters may be a problem) but electrostatic filters aren't
going to do anything for VOCs.
>Find an HVAC outfit and ask questions...
That's probably the best advice yet. There are heat-exchangers made
to exchange inside/outside air and retain the heat and limit moisture.
One I've heard of is, I think, called "The Wave". I have no idea how
well, or even if, it works.
On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 23:56:09 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On Wednesday, August 3, 2016 at 7:13:25 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Tue, 2 Aug 2016 21:02:03 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>
>> >Back when taverns allowed smoking, there were boxes on the ceiling that
>> >filtered the smoke out. Electrostatic air cleaners, they glommed dust and odors
>> >with ion generators.
>
>> That might work well with pain overspray (though cleaning dried paint
>> off the filters may be a problem) but electrostatic filters aren't
>> going to do anything for VOCs.
>
>No, I'm not talking about 'electrostatic air filters', I'm talking about the equivalent
>of smokestack scrubbers. Similar names, different stuff. Electrostatic air cleaners ionize
>and collect organic molecules... and it takes an ion generator to do that (corona
>on thin wires). So-called 'electrostatic air filters' use an electret (kinda like a permanent
>magnet) to collect dust.
Scrubbers don't remove VOCs, though. Their purpose is to grab
particulates.
On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 20:59:36 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> On Tue, 2 Aug 2016 15:11:21 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>Depending on what your fumes are and their intensity, you
>>>might need a fan rated for flammable vapors.
>>
>> It would be _really_ unusual to have an air mixture above the
>> flammability (or explosive) limit. If the concentration in the room
>> were that high, the room would blow anyway. IMO, this is sorta like
>> the "ground your DC so you don't have a dust explosion" sort of thing.
>
>Well, I don't know...what if he chose to build a spraybooth
>type enclosure, to help ensure all the fumes go out the vent?
>Seems like you could end up with a situation where the
>concentration at the fan was pretty high.
A small, isolated booth, perhaps but anything room-sized should be no
problem. If it's high enough in the room to be a problem, he'd have a
problem. There are plenty of ignition sources around.
>Probably not an issue, but worth taking a moment to think about.
A moment, sure. But overthinking problems is also a problem.
John McCoy <[email protected]> writes:
>[email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> On Tue, 2 Aug 2016 15:11:21 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>Depending on what your fumes are and their intensity, you
>>>might need a fan rated for flammable vapors.
>>
>> It would be _really_ unusual to have an air mixture above the
>> flammability (or explosive) limit. If the concentration in the room
>> were that high, the room would blow anyway. IMO, this is sorta like
>> the "ground your DC so you don't have a dust explosion" sort of thing.
>
>Well, I don't know...what if he chose to build a spraybooth
>type enclosure, to help ensure all the fumes go out the vent?
>Seems like you could end up with a situation where the
>concentration at the fan was pretty high.
Even if the vapors are not at the correct stoichiometric ratio
for an explosion, they're still flamable. Using a correctly rated fan is
simple common sense.