BUY USA clause in bailout package violates NAFTA

I am dumbfounded over this. How is this supposed to repair the
international image of the US that Obama is so desperately trying to
improve?

He wants to be the global Oprah/Phil Donahue/Wayne Dyer, yet he wants
to shut out our trading partners. That should build PLENTY of good
will with the global community.

The possibility of America standing on its own two legs is long, long
passed. Without our trading partners we are screwed. We are
incapable of turning this economy around without the help of others.

With so many of our resources, and so much of our manufacturing and
construction held in the hands of just a few here in the US, I shudder
to think what the costs will be with little or no competition. I
can't stand to think of the construction giants (which themselves are
global monsters - not hometown boys) getting even fatter building
municipal buildings and highways.

Since Hosana wants to start these projects right away, no doubt using
the same financial team that has overseen the first bailout dough go
away (you know, 18 billion in bonuses, 2 million dollar office
remodels, etc.) imagine what will happen when we plunge willy-nilly
into selecting the biggest contractors to get going immediately.

Budgets? Naw.... don't need 'em. We go no competition.

Material pricing? Don't worry! Where are they gonna go? It has to
stay between us!

One of the finer points of the bill I saw in a news article said that
they are even going to ask that ALL tools be made in the USA. I
worked on a union job as an observer for the owners of a large
building at one time. They union requireed that they had ALL USA made
tools. No Makita, Hitachi, DeWalt, or PC. The only used a special
line by B&D, anything Milwaukee, and a couple of others. One day,
both circular saws that two pairs of carpenters were using. Since
their reserve saw was in use by another pair, they had none of their
own. The certified USA saw from an approved vendor was somewhere en
route from waayyy up north. So those four knotheads sat on their
hands after halfhearted looking for work for 1/2 day the first day,
all day the next, and a couple of hours on the third. Finally, two
saws came, and four men went back to work.

Now imagine that being done with your own hard earned dollars. Not to
mention that the tools cost double the amount of their international
competitors. Think what that will do.

Imagine all the tools on a job; drills, saws, sledge hammers, skid
steer loaders, back hoes, material dollies, you name it. Some of that
stuff hasn't been made here for years. I don't know that we have the
technology to build many of these machines anymore. Where does that
leave us? Rather than to get going on the projects, will there be
even more bail out money thrown out the window to start new factories
so the industry cronies can finish screwing the last nickels out of
us?

Do you think Obama will give up his Blackberry or cell phone to keep
the "buy America" campaign going his way? After all, I am sure that
he only uses American made electronics, right?

This is just starting to get worse by the day. The arrogance and
stupidity of this whole bailout situation is getting ridiculous.

Robert

On Jan 31, 1:53=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> I am dumbfounded over this. =A0How is this supposed to repair the
> international image of the US that Obama is so desperately trying to
> improve?
>
> He wants to be the global Oprah/Phil Donahue/Wayne Dyer, yet he wants
> to shut out our trading partners. =A0That should build PLENTY of good
> will with the global community.
>
> The possibility of America standing on its own two legs is long, long
> passed. =A0Without our trading partners we are screwed. =A0We are
> incapable of turning this economy around without the help of others.
>
> With so many of our resources, and so much of our manufacturing and
> construction held in the hands of just a few here in the US, I shudder
> to think what the costs will be with little or no competition. =A0I
> can't stand to think of the construction giants (which themselves are
> global monsters - not hometown boys) getting even fatter building
> municipal buildings and highways.
>
> Since Hosana wants to start these projects right away, no doubt using
> the same financial team that has overseen the first bailout dough go
> away (you know, 18 billion in bonuses, 2 million dollar office
> remodels, etc.) imagine what will happen when we plunge willy-nilly
> into selecting the biggest contractors to get going immediately.
>
> Budgets? =A0Naw.... don't need 'em. =A0We go no competition.
>
> Material pricing? =A0Don't worry! =A0Where are they gonna go? =A0It has t=
o
> stay between us!
>
> One of the finer points of the bill I saw in a news article said that
> they are even going to ask that ALL tools be made in the USA. =A0I
> worked on a union job as an observer for the owners of a large
> building at one time. =A0They union requireed that they had ALL USA made
> tools. =A0No Makita, Hitachi, DeWalt, or PC. =A0The only used a special
> line by B&D, anything Milwaukee, and a couple of others. =A0One day,
> both circular saws that two pairs of carpenters were using. =A0Since
> their reserve saw was in use by another pair, they had none of their
> own. =A0The certified USA saw from an approved vendor was somewhere en
> route from waayyy up north. =A0So those four knotheads sat on their
> hands after halfhearted looking for work for 1/2 day the first day,
> all day the next, and a couple of hours on the third. =A0Finally, two
> saws came, and four men went back to work.
>
> Now imagine that being done with your own hard earned dollars. Not to
> mention that the tools cost double the amount of their international
> competitors. =A0Think what that will do.
>
> Imagine all the tools on a job; drills, saws, sledge hammers, skid
> steer loaders, back hoes, material dollies, you name it. =A0Some of that
> stuff hasn't been made here for years. =A0I don't know that we have the
> technology to build many of these machines anymore. Where does that
> leave us? =A0Rather than to get going on the projects, will there be
> even more bail out money thrown out the window to start new factories
> so the industry cronies can finish screwing the last nickels out of
> us?
>
> Do you think Obama will give up his Blackberry or cell phone to keep
> the "buy America" campaign going his way? =A0After all, I am sure that
> he only uses American made electronics, right?
>
> This is just starting to get worse by the day. =A0The arrogance and
> stupidity of this whole bailout situation is getting ridiculous.
>
> Robert

You are Right on! I think it's the "F" in NAFTA, that this
administration objects to.
They can't control business in Canada or Mexico as easily as they can
in the US. And with this bunch, it's all about control. Hang on to
your hats. It's going to be a Helluva ride!

Gene

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Jan 31, 11:25 pm, "MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:7cde5fd6-ab15-4e99-bb90-df7950761f03@m22g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 31, 8:15 pm, "MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >news:[email protected]...
> > [... snipped "buy USA" for bailout ...]
>
> > > This is just starting to get worse by the day. The arrogance and
> > > stupidity of this whole bailout situation is getting ridiculous.
>
> > Your anger and ire are misplaced. We're in the situation we're in by
> > spending our money overseas. Our largess with our neighboring countries,
> > through NAFTA, brought only the beneficients' scorn and disdain, while
> > we
> > suffered loss of jobs and loss of capital. Hell, even our marijuana
> > comes
> > from Canada and Mexico. It's true; we can't compete with their smaller
> > economies on a level field.
>
> > As for the stimulus money, the simplest analogy is with pipes and
> > plumbing.
> > In a closed system, the money makes several roundtrips through the
> > economy
> > before petering out, multiplying its effectiveness each time through.
> > The
> > money goes to workers in your community, where they spend it on goods,
> > and
> > they in turn spend it on more goods. We pay taxes on the money. The
> > money
> > comes back out to pay for more work and more product. There's a name for
> > this economic theory. Keynesian, I think, but I might as well try to do
> > integral calculus as remember the fine details.
>
> How does that deal with manufacturers of products for foreign markets?
> Not everything the US makes is for domestic consumption. You have to
> keep selling cluster bombs to other 'friendly' countries, you know.
>
> ========
> The trade imbalance is specifically the problem. I'm for sending those
> clusters bombs to friendlies, as well as free contributions to those
> hostile
> to US interests. There was a time when dropping a bomb, a US made bomb,
> eventually circulated the money back into our economy. Bush's $8B war was
> supposed to generate $8B of revenue for those concerns involved in
> replenishing the stockpile.
>
>
I guess I didn't make my point very clear. If the US won't buy stuff
from other countries, what makes anybody think they will sell anything
to other countries?

Back to woodworking.
=====
We were talking strictly of how economic stimulus money was to be spent. We
can talk about burning Walmarts some other day.

On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 19:15:48 -0600, "MikeWhy"
<[email protected]> wrote:

><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>[... snipped "buy USA" for bailout ...]
>> This is just starting to get worse by the day. The arrogance and
>> stupidity of this whole bailout situation is getting ridiculous.
>
>Your anger and ire are misplaced. We're in the situation we're in by
>spending our money overseas. Our largess with our neighboring countries,
>through NAFTA, brought only the beneficients' scorn and disdain, while we
>suffered loss of jobs and loss of capital. Hell, even our marijuana comes
>from Canada and Mexico. It's true; we can't compete with their smaller
>economies on a level field.
>
>As for the stimulus money, the simplest analogy is with pipes and plumbing.
>In a closed system, the money makes several roundtrips through the economy
>before petering out, multiplying its effectiveness each time through. The
>money goes to workers in your community, where they spend it on goods, and
>they in turn spend it on more goods. We pay taxes on the money. The money
>comes back out to pay for more work and more product. There's a name for
>this economic theory. Keynesian, I think, but I might as well try to do
>integral calculus as remember the fine details.
>
>So, what about the import tool restrictions? Why cut NAFTA partners out of
>the pie? First, our dear neighbors don't pay taxes or tariffs in the US.
>Money leaves, and doesn't return.

Oh, it returns all right, when Canadians buy US goods and services.
Because we ARE a small economy we cannot afford to build EVERYTHING we
need. Particularly when your (protectionist) industries pull their
plants out of Canada . And they buy up our plants and then pull them
out so if we want, say, a medium duty truck we need to buy AMERICAN
International or Freightliner trucks because you have shut our plants
down. Our steel industry is almost 100% American owned now that
American Steel has bought out Stelco.

You get your money back from Canada. How'd you like if Canada decided
to say "you won't buy our steel, see how you do without our natural
gas too"?
We wouldn't be STUPID enough to do that (I dont think even Harper
would do that - Dion might have).

<The status quo is exactly why we have a
>problem. So, what to do about the lack of domestic tools and suppliers? This
>is secondary money, funding US industry, making more jobs, opening a market
>for manufacturing. Manufacturing builds a long supply chain, opening more
>domestic markets, developing still more jobs, and circulating the capital to
>more corners of the economy. Or something like that.
>

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:7cde5fd6-ab15-4e99-bb90-df7950761f03@m22g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 31, 8:15 pm, "MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
> [... snipped "buy USA" for bailout ...]
>
> > This is just starting to get worse by the day. The arrogance and
> > stupidity of this whole bailout situation is getting ridiculous.
>
> Your anger and ire are misplaced. We're in the situation we're in by
> spending our money overseas. Our largess with our neighboring countries,
> through NAFTA, brought only the beneficients' scorn and disdain, while we
> suffered loss of jobs and loss of capital. Hell, even our marijuana comes
> from Canada and Mexico. It's true; we can't compete with their smaller
> economies on a level field.
>
> As for the stimulus money, the simplest analogy is with pipes and
> plumbing.
> In a closed system, the money makes several roundtrips through the economy
> before petering out, multiplying its effectiveness each time through. The
> money goes to workers in your community, where they spend it on goods, and
> they in turn spend it on more goods. We pay taxes on the money. The money
> comes back out to pay for more work and more product. There's a name for
> this economic theory. Keynesian, I think, but I might as well try to do
> integral calculus as remember the fine details.
>

How does that deal with manufacturers of products for foreign markets?
Not everything the US makes is for domestic consumption. You have to
keep selling cluster bombs to other 'friendly' countries, you know.

========
The trade imbalance is specifically the problem. I'm for sending those
clusters bombs to friendlies, as well as free contributions to those hostile
to US interests. There was a time when dropping a bomb, a US made bomb,
eventually circulated the money back into our economy. Bush's $8B war was
supposed to generate $8B of revenue for those concerns involved in
replenishing the stockpile.

>>>>>>>>>>
Oh, and that money that is supposed to go around and around in a
closed loop system?
After the money-lenders and robber barons and tax people and utility
gougers skim off the bulk of it?

=======
Corrupt money lenders were and remain the bane of all civilizations. ;) It's
odd to have this discussion in this NG, in the company of mostly decent
folk, but I'll help fan the flames this once. Let's have us a bit of fun.

>>>>>
The money a working man spends to heat his home goes up the chimney,
so to speak, never to return as anything worthwhile.
How do you replenish it? Print some more?

=========
Domestic energy. Money doesn't disappear when it's spent. Instead, it
circulates. We would like to have it circulate here for a change.

>>>>>>>
Many economic models work well as long as you exclude the predators.

=======
Greed has its good side as well. More specificially, profit -- i.e.,
personal gain -- is the entire basis of free enterprise. Let's face it. The
US *was* a great nation, whether in spite of or even because of the robber
barons. Without incentive, we look, act, and snuggle in our comforters like
the rest of the socialist world. As a personal aside, it was largely or at
least partly personal enrichment that made Gleevec possible. That's all I'm
going to say on that.

Robatoy wrote:

> Not everything the US makes is for domestic consumption. You have to
> keep selling cluster bombs to other 'friendly' countries, you know.

Umm - are you still liking the "cluster bomb" I shipped your way?

> Oh, and that money that is supposed to go around and around in a
> closed loop system?

What makes you think it doesn't?

> After the money-lenders and robber barons and tax people and utility
> gougers skim off the bulk of it?

So? Stay away from the money-lenders. Look for suppliers who aren't
robbers. Innovate to minimize dependence on utility gougers. Look for
ways to avoid paying more taxes than absolutely required - and actively
work to shrink those requirements.

> The money a working man spends to heat his home goes up the chimney,
> so to speak, never to return as anything worthwhile.

Well, that's a choice for the working man to make. It's not a given that
it /has/ go up the chimney...

> How do you replenish it? Print some more?

That's one choice, another might be to actually produce something that
can be sold with sufficient markup to cover the overhead associated with
being alive.

> Many economic models work well as long as you exclude the predators.

And the ones that do work well in the real world, do so in spite of the
predators. The challenge isn't just to get rid of the predators - it's
also to not allowing yourself to be a victim in an arena where there
will always be predators.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Robatoy wrote:
> On Jan 31, 9:53 pm, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Robatoy wrote:

>>> Oh, and that money that is supposed to go around and around in a
>>> closed loop system?
>>
>> What makes you think it doesn't?
>
> Well, somebody is siphoning it off somehow, I have less now than I did
> 2 years ago.

Not surprising - it's been an expensive decade. The costs of the
conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan have rippled out to affect everyone on
the planet. The damage done on 9-11 was not limited to the twin towers.
We're still recovering from Pacific tsunamis and Gulf hurricanes and a
number of serious floods around the world. Many people around the world
over-estimated assets and made investments based on faulty information
and unwise expectations, and those trillions of dollars haven't been
siphoned off - they never existed (except as numbers on paper) in the
first place. The costs of all of these things have not yet been fully
paid or even reckoned.

No one seems ready to figure the costs of Haiti, Zimbabwe, Somalia,
Georgia, Lebanon, Palestine, nor sub-Saharan Africa - and the Russian
economy is about to implode, which will produce some sizable ripples
outside their borders...

>>> After the money-lenders and robber barons and tax people and utility
>>> gougers skim off the bulk of it?
>>
>> So? Stay away from the money-lenders. Look for suppliers who aren't
>> robbers. Innovate to minimize dependence on utility gougers. Look for
>> ways to avoid paying more taxes than absolutely required - and actively
>> work to shrink those requirements.
>
> Oh, I do those things. I was born Dutch, not stupid. Unfortunately,
> too many people are getting raped on a regular basis.

I know you do - and this is a good time for us all to consider the
positive aspects of traditional Dutch culture. Hmm - I wonder how much
of that Dutch-ness came from further north? :)

> What's with 20% on credit cards when prime is 1 %?
> The problem is that I am not the only one affecting the economy.

I cut up all my credit cards more than 30 years ago and did without a
lot of instant gratification - and struggled through some pretty thin
times with what I had. There isn't much I can say without offending a
lot of people - so I won't.

>>> The money a working man spends to heat his home goes up the chimney,
>>> so to speak, never to return as anything worthwhile.
>>
>> Well, that's a choice for the working man to make. It's not a given that
>> it /has/ go up the chimney...
>
> Most people are not in a position to make those choices. Apartment
> building dwellers for instance.

Again, it's all about choices one /is/ in a position to make.

>>> Many economic models work well as long as you exclude the predators.
>>
>> And the ones that do work well in the real world, do so in spite of the
>> predators. The challenge isn't just to get rid of the predators - it's
>> also to not allowing yourself to be a victim in an arena where there
>> will always be predators.
>
> You know that, I know that. But I don't think it is you and I that are
> crashing the world economy.

I know for a fact that we're both trying to keep things going. This past
week I've been beating my brains out trying to figure out how to enlarge
the scope of what I've been doing to create jobs for sales people, jobs
for retrofit installers, and energy cost savings for end customers. In
broad concept, I'm almost comfortable - but in detail it becomes really
scary.

Coincidentally, the number of web site hits from Ontario this past week
has been extraordinary - and over the last couple of days the hits from
Quebec have been increasing rapidly. You guys know something I don't?

> I pity those who have high debt loads while their jobs are in peril.

Yup, but time and energy resources are better spent on producing
solutions to those problems than on agonizing over their effects.

> I don't know what the solution is, but slamming the border shut isn't
> it.
> I don't believe you support that either.

Of course I don't, but I've never been very comfortable with boundaries
- probably the result of growing up in the midst of a culture in which
borders weren't of /any/ importance, a fact that western governments
/still/ haven't managed to grasp...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

On Jan 31, 12:11=A0pm, [email protected] wrote:
> On Jan 30, 12:13=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Didn't anybody learn anything in the 1930's? Protectionism is a bad
> > idea. For anybody.
>
> Protectionism seemed to work for Harley Davidson. =A0And lack of
> protectionism of any sort has moved much of our manufacturing
> "overseas". =A0In fact, our manufacturers have benefited from tax codes
> that paid the owners to move their factories out of the country. =A0The
> grand irony is that without protecting our jobs and wages here, there
> has been zero effort to increase wages in the countries where our jobs
> have moved to. =A0With the result that jobs keep going away, and we are
> faced with competition from illegal immigrants who are trying to flee
> the oppressive work environments in their countries. =A0It's the grand
> race to the bottom, largely of our own making.

Look at what happened to some of the European cities. Whole sections
of Amsterdam, the burbs surrounding Paris, the whole damned continent
is not allowed to eat pork anymore.(okay, a small illustrative
embellishment). And those were LEGAL immigrants.
Just to use a small example in The Netherlands.
The Dutch didn't want to do menial work anymore, like garbage
collecting, road-building etc. It was cheap to import a large
workforce from Turkey (one example to keep it simple, nothing against
the Turks). The Turks would come and work, sending the money home
whilst instituting mosques and taking over entire neighbourhoods. Then
they got representation in government and insisted on street sign in
Turkish, because anything less would be discrimination. The whole
political correctness took on an adversary position: OUR way or a
fine.
Now the Dutch can't even get a menial job anymore because it would be
discriminatory not to give it to an immigrant.

Does anybody still speak English in LA? (Other than those fag-pinko
Hollywood libtards?)
Isn't Chicago the world's largest Polish city?

Most old-school immigrants are grateful for the opportunities to help
build North America, and we should be grateful to them.
To them, it was a privilege.To the new batch, it has become a right.
They drag along all those fucked-up customs that made them want to
leave in the their old country in the first place, then impose those
archaic rules on us.

Depending on foreign workers is as dangerous as depending on foreign
electronics, which have obsolescence and life-spans built in. What if
you DVD player breaks, eh? And you can't go to WallFart to buy a new
one for $ 29.95. You'll have to get it fixed at your local electronics
workshop.... and WHO do you think you'll be talking to then, eh
honkey?

Caveat. The above was a dramatization of what happens when people walk
this planet with their ears covered... by their butt-cheeks.

On Jan 31, 11:25=A0pm, "MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:7cde5fd6-ab15-4e99-bb90-df7950761f03@m22g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 31, 8:15 pm, "MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >news:[email protected]...
> > [... snipped "buy USA" for bailout ...]
>
> > > This is just starting to get worse by the day. The arrogance and
> > > stupidity of this whole bailout situation is getting ridiculous.
>
> > Your anger and ire are misplaced. We're in the situation we're in by
> > spending our money overseas. Our largess with our neighboring countries=
,
> > through NAFTA, brought only the beneficients' scorn and disdain, while =
we
> > suffered loss of jobs and loss of capital. Hell, even our marijuana com=
es
> > from Canada and Mexico. It's true; we can't compete with their smaller
> > economies on a level field.
>
> > As for the stimulus money, the simplest analogy is with pipes and
> > plumbing.
> > In a closed system, the money makes several roundtrips through the econ=
omy
> > before petering out, multiplying its effectiveness each time through. T=
he
> > money goes to workers in your community, where they spend it on goods, =
and
> > they in turn spend it on more goods. We pay taxes on the money. The mon=
ey
> > comes back out to pay for more work and more product. There's a name fo=
r
> > this economic theory. Keynesian, I think, but I might as well try to do
> > integral calculus as remember the fine details.
>
> How does that deal with manufacturers of products for foreign markets?
> Not everything the US makes is for domestic consumption. You have to
> keep selling cluster bombs to other 'friendly' countries, you know.
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> The trade imbalance is specifically the problem. I'm for sending those
> clusters bombs to friendlies, as well as free contributions to those host=
ile
> to US interests. There was a time when dropping a bomb, a US made bomb,
> eventually circulated the money back into our economy. Bush's $8B war was
> supposed to generate $8B of revenue for those concerns involved in
> replenishing the stockpile.
>
>
I guess I didn't make my point very clear. If the US won't buy stuff
from other countries, what makes anybody think they will sell anything
to other countries?

Back to woodworking.

On Jan 31, 1:38=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jan 31, 12:11=A0pm, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > On Jan 30, 12:13=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > Didn't anybody learn anything in the 1930's? Protectionism is a bad
> > > idea. For anybody.
>
> > Protectionism seemed to work for Harley Davidson. =A0And lack of
> > protectionism of any sort has moved much of our manufacturing
> > "overseas". =A0In fact, our manufacturers have benefited from tax codes
> > that paid the owners to move their factories out of the country. =A0The
> > grand irony is that without protecting our jobs and wages here, there
> > has been zero effort to increase wages in the countries where our jobs
> > have moved to. =A0With the result that jobs keep going away, and we are
> > faced with competition from illegal immigrants who are trying to flee
> > the oppressive work environments in their countries. =A0It's the grand
> > race to the bottom, largely of our own making.
>
> Look at what happened to some of the European cities. Whole sections
> of Amsterdam, the burbs surrounding Paris, the whole damned continent
> is not allowed to eat pork anymore.(okay, a small illustrative
> embellishment). And those were LEGAL immigrants.
> Just to use a small example in The Netherlands.
> The Dutch didn't want to do menial work anymore, like garbage
> collecting, road-building etc. It was cheap to import a large
> workforce from Turkey (one example to keep it simple, nothing against
> the Turks). The Turks would come and work, sending the money home
> whilst instituting mosques and taking over entire neighbourhoods. Then
> they got representation in government and insisted on street sign in
> Turkish, because anything less would be discrimination. The whole
> political correctness took on an adversary position: OUR way or a
> fine.
> Now the Dutch can't even get a menial job anymore because it would be
> discriminatory not to give it to an immigrant.
>
> Does anybody still speak English in LA? (Other than those fag-pinko
> Hollywood libtards?)
> Isn't Chicago the world's largest Polish city?
>
> Most old-school immigrants are grateful for the opportunities to help
> build North America, and we should be grateful to them.
> To them, it was a privilege.To the new batch, it has become a right.
> They drag along all those fucked-up customs that made them want to
> leave in the their old country in the first place, then impose those
> archaic rules on us.
>
> Depending on foreign workers is as dangerous as depending on foreign
> electronics, which have obsolescence and life-spans built in. What if
> you DVD player breaks, eh? And you can't go to WallFart to buy a new
> one for $ 29.95. You'll have to get it fixed at your local electronics
> workshop.... and WHO do you think you'll be talking to then, eh
> honkey?
>
> Caveat. The above was a dramatization of what happens when people walk
> this planet with their ears covered... by their butt-cheeks.

And now this, the tip of the iceberg:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/food_and_drink/article56221=
56.ece

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
[... snipped "buy USA" for bailout ...]
> This is just starting to get worse by the day. The arrogance and
> stupidity of this whole bailout situation is getting ridiculous.

Your anger and ire are misplaced. We're in the situation we're in by
spending our money overseas. Our largess with our neighboring countries,
through NAFTA, brought only the beneficients' scorn and disdain, while we
suffered loss of jobs and loss of capital. Hell, even our marijuana comes
from Canada and Mexico. It's true; we can't compete with their smaller
economies on a level field.

As for the stimulus money, the simplest analogy is with pipes and plumbing.
In a closed system, the money makes several roundtrips through the economy
before petering out, multiplying its effectiveness each time through. The
money goes to workers in your community, where they spend it on goods, and
they in turn spend it on more goods. We pay taxes on the money. The money
comes back out to pay for more work and more product. There's a name for
this economic theory. Keynesian, I think, but I might as well try to do
integral calculus as remember the fine details.

So, what about the import tool restrictions? Why cut NAFTA partners out of
the pie? First, our dear neighbors don't pay taxes or tariffs in the US.
Money leaves, and doesn't return. The status quo is exactly why we have a
problem. So, what to do about the lack of domestic tools and suppliers? This
is secondary money, funding US industry, making more jobs, opening a market
for manufacturing. Manufacturing builds a long supply chain, opening more
domestic markets, developing still more jobs, and circulating the capital to
more corners of the economy. Or something like that.

On Jan 31, 8:15=A0pm, "MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
> [... snipped "buy USA" for bailout ...]
>
> > This is just starting to get worse by the day. =A0The arrogance and
> > stupidity of this whole bailout situation is getting ridiculous.
>
> Your anger and ire are misplaced. We're in the situation we're in by
> spending our money overseas. Our largess with our neighboring countries,
> through NAFTA, brought only the beneficients' scorn and disdain, while we
> suffered loss of jobs and loss of capital. Hell, even our marijuana comes
> from Canada and Mexico. It's true; we can't compete with their smaller
> economies on a level field.
>
> As for the stimulus money, the simplest analogy is with pipes and plumbin=
g.
> In a closed system, the money makes several roundtrips through the econom=
y
> before petering out, multiplying its effectiveness each time through. The
> money goes to workers in your community, where they spend it on goods, an=
d
> they in turn spend it on more goods. We pay taxes on the money. The money
> comes back out to pay for more work and more product. There's a name for
> this economic theory. Keynesian, I think, but I might as well try to do
> integral calculus as remember the fine details.
>

How does that deal with manufacturers of products for foreign markets?
Not everything the US makes is for domestic consumption. You have to
keep selling cluster bombs to other 'friendly' countries, you know.
Oh, and that money that is supposed to go around and around in a
closed loop system?
After the money-lenders and robber barons and tax people and utility
gougers skim off the bulk of it?
The money a working man spends to heat his home goes up the chimney,
so to speak, never to return as anything worthwhile.
How do you replenish it? Print some more?

Many economic models work well as long as you exclude the predators.

On Jan 31, 7:15=A0pm, "MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Your anger and ire are misplaced. We're in the situation we're in by
> spending our money overseas. Our largess with our neighboring countries,
> through NAFTA, brought only the beneficients' scorn and disdain, while we
> suffered loss of jobs and loss of capital.

*** Major snippage ***

>Manufacturing builds a long supply chain, opening more
> domestic markets, developing still more jobs, and circulating the capital=
to
> more corners of the economy. Or something like that.

Mike, I appreciate your thoughtful response. But to me it sounds like
a high school civics lesson given by an economics teacher. You
obviously have a much more idealistic belief in our system than I do.

To use your simple analogy, I think that money given by the government
to US companies will indeed flow through our plumbing system and into
the hands of the gutter rats.

You see everything working as it would in a textbook situation. Money
flowing from the top down, everyone receiving benefits. A great plan
if it would work.

But the USA isn't that way. Individuals now steal billions of dollars
at a time. Billions. American businesses are so cavalier in their
practices that they use "bailout money" slated to assist the public to
pay themselves bonuses for jobs poorly done. With no oversight, they
aren't even breaking a law, and they aren't asked to give the money
back. After losing a few billion themselves, their was one banker
that used 1.6 million just to remodel his office!

Out of the 50 billion dollars that are spent on the war each year, how
have you benefited? Do you have better trade infrastructure in your
community? Did General Dynamics open a plant in your community? Did
Haliburton spread their new found wealth anywhere that you know of?
Lockheed? Have any of these companies that continue to make billions
from tax payer money helped you by sourcing the to your state? There
are evidenced situations where American companies overcharged
(Haliburton) overcharged the government by millions and millions...
and nothing is done except to ask for part of the money back.

A simple law won't reform American business practices. Laws won't
reform the criminal element of American business. Daily, we see more
Americans that have happily screwed the eyeballs out of their fellow
Americans so they can lead the good life. American business is
broken. Ethically, American banking is in even worse shape.
Corruption, cronyism, lack of ethics and lack of morals are what
American big business is all about.

Think about that gawdawful first hearing with the auto makers where
they all flew up in their private jets to talk to Congress.

And at this point with the last bailout, there is an estimated 380
billion spent, and as much as half of that is totally unaccounted for;
the people that got the money (mostly banks at this point) refused to
even tell Congress where it went.

If you think that telling these folks to buy American will fix the
profound corporate greed and unethical behavior and make them models
for a high school civic class, we are so far apart on this we are on
different planets.

In a perfect world, the idea would work. But here and now, with our
system as it is with the people we have in charge, not a chance.

Well... that's it for me. I am going to prep the pit and the meat for
a nice brisket smoke for tomorrow. I hope to watch the game tomorrow
and watch the Redbirds pull an upset for all of us gray haired guys.

Robert

Larry W wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
>
> Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> <...snipped...>
>> What did people THINK was going to happen when they elected liberal
>>statists to office? That somehow they were going to get fiscal restraint
>>and fiscal responsibility?
>>
>
>
> Well, if they based their decision on the budget performance of Republican
> vs Democratic administrations over the last 30 years or so, yes.
>

You're a funny man. Naive, but funny

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

[email protected] wrote:

... snip
> With so many of our resources, and so much of our manufacturing and
> construction held in the hands of just a few here in the US, I shudder
> to think what the costs will be with little or no competition. I
> can't stand to think of the construction giants (which themselves are
> global monsters - not hometown boys) getting even fatter building
> municipal buildings and highways.

Keep in mind also Robert B. Reiche's testimony before congress in which he
said that he didn't want those infrastructure jobs going to "white male
construction workers" -- his exact words.


... snip

> This is just starting to get worse by the day. The arrogance and
> stupidity of this whole bailout situation is getting ridiculous.
>
> Robert

Elections have consequences. Nobody was willing to listen to concerns
during the election season. No intellectual curiosity was displayed by the
media on the candidate's past record, associations, or experience. They
were of course, sufficiently curious to air-drop hundreds of reporters into
Alaska to dig through dumpsters for dirt on the other party's VP pick.

What did people THINK was going to happen when they elected liberal
statists to office? That somehow they were going to get fiscal restraint
and fiscal responsibility?

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

"Morris Dovey" wrote

> I cut up all my credit cards more than 30 years ago and did without a lot
> of instant gratification - and struggled through some pretty thin times
> with what I had. There isn't much I can say without offending a lot of
> people - so I won't.

Au contraire ... if meekly accepting 18 - 30% interest on credit card debt,
in itself a clear manifestation of rampant ignorance/stupidity, is not
offensive, it's rather doubtful your words can be.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

[email protected] wrote:

> On Jan 31, 7:15 pm, "MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Your anger and ire are misplaced. We're in the situation we're in by
>> spending our money overseas. Our largess with our neighboring countries,
>> through NAFTA, brought only the beneficients' scorn and disdain, while we
>> suffered loss of jobs and loss of capital.
>
> *** Major snippage ***
>
>>Manufacturing builds a long supply chain, opening more
>> domestic markets, developing still more jobs, and circulating the capital
>> to more corners of the economy. Or something like that.
>
> Mike, I appreciate your thoughtful response. But to me it sounds like
> a high school civics lesson given by an economics teacher. You
> obviously have a much more idealistic belief in our system than I do.
>
> To use your simple analogy, I think that money given by the government
> to US companies will indeed flow through our plumbing system and into
> the hands of the gutter rats.
>

The government has no business giving taxpayer money to private businesses
unless they are doing so in receipt of services. The current plan is
having the government pick the winners and losers -- something the
government has failed at every time.

> You see everything working as it would in a textbook situation. Money
> flowing from the top down, everyone receiving benefits. A great plan
> if it would work.

In free enterprise that is how it does work, and, despite the appearances
being given by the propagandists, is still working for the most part.

>
> But the USA isn't that way. Individuals now steal billions of dollars
> at a time. Billions. American businesses are so cavalier in their
> practices that they use "bailout money" slated to assist the public to
> pay themselves bonuses for jobs poorly done. With no oversight, they
> aren't even breaking a law, and they aren't asked to give the money
> back. After losing a few billion themselves, their was one banker
> that used 1.6 million just to remodel his office!
>
> Out of the 50 billion dollars that are spent on the war each year, how
> have you benefited? Do you have better trade infrastructure in your
> community? Did General Dynamics open a plant in your community? Did
> Haliburton spread their new found wealth anywhere that you know of?
> Lockheed? Have any of these companies that continue to make billions
> from tax payer money helped you by sourcing the to your state? There
> are evidenced situations where American companies overcharged
> (Haliburton) overcharged the government by millions and millions...
> and nothing is done except to ask for part of the money back.
>

Each of those companies you mention pay salaries to their employees, those
employees use that money to pay their mortgages (there's an interesting
concept, eh?), buy groceries, dine out, and basically participate in the
economy. The reports of Halliburton's overcharges were either grossly
overly sensationalized (no, I don't work for Halliburton or any of its
subsidiaries), the majority of the overcharges were due to differing
interpretations of legally reimbursable expenses. The Defense industry is
one of the most heavily regulated and audited industries in the country --
if someone were wanting to commit fraud or any other type of shenanigans,
that is not the industry to try to do it. Imagine if you had to open your
books to your customers, showing them your expenses, costs, with whom you
were doing business, and then negotiate a "fair and reasonable" profit
based upon your disclosed (and auditable) costs. That's the defense
industry. The government has access to all cost records, costs, and fees.
Each company negotiates the allowable profit on each contract, all costs
and expenditures are fully auditable.


> A simple law won't reform American business practices. Laws won't
> reform the criminal element of American business. Daily, we see more
> Americans that have happily screwed the eyeballs out of their fellow
> Americans so they can lead the good life. American business is
> broken. Ethically, American banking is in even worse shape.
> Corruption, cronyism, lack of ethics and lack of morals are what
> American big business is all about.
>

You also forgot the most corrupt element of all, the ones who brought us
this lovely little housing bust -- the members of congress who, through
various legal extortion forced banks to make loans to people who the banks
knew would never be able to repay. Various pressures through the CRA (and
for those apologists, no, this has not been widely debunked. More than bank
mergers were threatened by CRA enforcement) conspired to keep lowering the
housing loan bar to the point that even welfare payments could be
considered as income in applying for home loans. It's not surprising that
bank boards got together to determine how best to spread the risk from
these toxic loans so that *their* bank didn't go under. After a time, I
suspect a number of them "went native" and then things really began to go
awry.


> Think about that gawdawful first hearing with the auto makers where
> they all flew up in their private jets to talk to Congress.
>

This was a bit disengenuous on the part of the congress critters (Does San
Fran Nan really need the airplane *she* demanded when becoming Speaker of
the House?). Private jets are actually a fairly cost-effective means of
transportation for company executives when their time availability is
measured in minutes and metered to ensure access for the highest priority
concerns. Private jets eliminate delays and permit them to continue working
while in transit by either holding meetings on the plane or by
teleconference. It just doesn't make sense for them to be flying
commercial, the company loses use of their time during delays.

What is more troubling is that they went to Washington at all to ask
for taxpayer money to support their private firms. Even more troubling is
that they expected to receive such money.

> And at this point with the last bailout, there is an estimated 380
> billion spent, and as much as half of that is totally unaccounted for;
> the people that got the money (mostly banks at this point) refused to
> even tell Congress where it went.
>

From my standpoint, some of this is delicious (but expensive) irony: the
majority of those banks, bankers, and investment firms are run by staunch
supporters of the Democrat party (you know, the party of the "little guy")


> If you think that telling these folks to buy American will fix the
> profound corporate greed and unethical behavior and make them models
> for a high school civic class, we are so far apart on this we are on
> different planets.
>
> In a perfect world, the idea would work. But here and now, with our
> system as it is with the people we have in charge, not a chance.
>
> Well... that's it for me. I am going to prep the pit and the meat for
> a nice brisket smoke for tomorrow. I hope to watch the game tomorrow
> and watch the Redbirds pull an upset for all of us gray haired guys.
>
> Robert

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Robatoy wrote:
> Didn't anybody learn anything in the 1930's? Protectionism is a bad
> idea. For anybody.

The new pres has already said he doesn't like NAFTA. Maybe this is the
first step in shutting it down?

On the other hand, as we've seen before the USA only abides by NAFTA
rulings when they're in their favour.

Chris

[email protected] wrote:

> On Jan 31, 2:57 pm, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> What did people THINK was going to happen when they elected liberal
>> statists to office?  That somehow they were going to get fiscal restraint
>> and fiscal responsibility?
>
> I know, I know. But I am going with John Wayne on this one; "He
> wasn't my candidate, but he is my President". I am trying to give the
> guy a chance and be as positive as possible. I am sick of the
> infighting between politicians and the public over partisanship
> issues.

If the argument is over statist vs. freedom issues, I want people to be
partisan and not sell out to the statists. Freedom surrendered to the
state is hard, if not impossible to regain.


>
> I WANT things to go well. I do not care who the president is...
> neither side of the isle has been able to field anyone dynamic for
> years, so we are left with whatever candidate wants to face the
> storm. I am not partisan; both sides stink of the feces of "bought
> and paid for" politics.
>
> I want Obama to do well as our leader, because if he does, by default
> it is <possible> we might as well.
>

I wouldn't mind him doing well if he were not espousing policies that are
going to do our country ill. Unfortunately, the policies he is pushing are
the same failed policies that kept our country mired in the Depression
until WWII finally broke us out of that condition.


> I just didn't think things would go SO horribly wrong SO fast... less
> than 14 days in... I didn't have a clue those guys were that arrogant
> and downright stupid.

Given the policies being promoted (government is the answer) and the
arrogance on the parts of the House and Senate leadership (Pelosi and Reid
specifically), how could anybody be surprised? Pelosi completely shut out
the other side from even being able to make recommendations for the pork
bill and then had the gall to publicly state that she was not "partisan"
or "bi-partisan", she's "non-partisan". I guess so, as long as your
definition of "non-partisan" is going along with what the Democrat
leadership proposes.

>
> Robert

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

On Feb 1, 5:39=A0am, "MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>. (FWIW, I've tried banning my wife from watching that kook case Lou Dobbs
> on CNN. She mistakes his gossip and ranting for hard news and facts. I'll
> settle for her not parroting his nonsense in my presence, but she still
> slips up now and then. One day, I really will climb the roof and clip tha=
t
> satellite cable.)

Lou blathers on about whatever will sell him books. Just a windbag
from the Limbaugh school.
Lou figures if it works for Rush on the right, it ought to work for
him on the so-called left.
They're both talking heads with very little substance or soul.

Funny thing is, sometimes both of them slip up and say something true.

BTW, isn't there an amendment that deals with cable snipping
somewhere? <G>

On Jan 30, 12:13=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> Didn't anybody learn anything in the 1930's? Protectionism is a bad
> idea. For anybody.

Protectionism seemed to work for Harley Davidson. And lack of
protectionism of any sort has moved much of our manufacturing
"overseas". In fact, our manufacturers have benefited from tax codes
that paid the owners to move their factories out of the country. The
grand irony is that without protecting our jobs and wages here, there
has been zero effort to increase wages in the countries where our jobs
have moved to. With the result that jobs keep going away, and we are
faced with competition from illegal immigrants who are trying to flee
the oppressive work environments in their countries. It's the grand
race to the bottom, largely of our own making.

On Feb 1, 10:17=A0am, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Morris Dovey" wrote
>
> > I cut up all my credit cards more than 30 years ago and did without a l=
ot
> > of instant gratification - and struggled through some pretty thin times
> > with what I had. There isn't much I can say without offending a lot of
> > people - so I won't.
>
> Au contraire ... if meekly accepting 18 - 30% interest on credit card deb=
t,
> in itself a clear manifestation of rampant ignorance/stupidity, is not
> offensive, it's rather doubtful your words can be.
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 10/22/08
> KarlC@ (the obvious)

We haven't cut ours up. The repose in a drawer in case of emergency
need. Every once in a bit, we charge something, and pay it off when
the bill arrives...I often use them for gas purchases now that drive-
aways are such a PITA. Most places today demand payment inside before
pumping, or a credit card. I save the walk and use the card. We very
seldom use more than $150 worth of gas a month. Actually, we very
seldom use more than $100 worth a month, UNLESS MobilExxon ow whatever
its name is this week decides to up prices.

They're handy on trips, too, as a source of emergency funds if nothing
else.

Getting my job yanked out from under me a few years ago taught me
something about credit, as well as about Woodcraft.

On Jan 31, 9:53=A0pm, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
> > Not everything the US makes is for domestic consumption. You have to
> > keep selling cluster bombs to other 'friendly' countries, you know.
>
> Umm - are you still liking the "cluster bomb" I shipped your way?

LOL.. don't be silly, Canadians don't use those..
>
> > Oh, and that money that is supposed to go around and around in a
> > closed loop system?
>
> What makes you think it doesn't?

Well, somebody is siphoning it off somehow, I have less now than I did
2 years ago.

> > After the money-lenders and robber barons and tax people and utility
> > gougers skim off the bulk of it?
>
> So? Stay away from the money-lenders. Look for suppliers who aren't
> robbers. Innovate to minimize dependence on utility gougers. Look for
> ways to avoid paying more taxes than absolutely required - and actively
> work to shrink those requirements.

Oh, I do those things. I was born Dutch, not stupid. Unfortunately,
too many people are getting raped on a regular basis.
What's with 20% on credit cards when prime is 1 %?
The problem is that I am not the only one affecting the economy.
>
> > The money a working man spends to heat his home goes up the chimney,
> > so to speak, never to return as anything worthwhile.
>
> Well, that's a choice for the working man to make. It's not a given that
> it /has/ go up the chimney...

Most people are not in a position to make those choices. Apartment
building dwellers for instance.
>
> > How do you replenish it? Print some more?
>
> That's one choice, another might be to actually produce something that
> can be sold with sufficient markup to cover the overhead associated with
> being alive.
>
> > Many economic models work well as long as you exclude the predators.
>
> And the ones that do work well in the real world, do so in spite of the
> predators. The challenge isn't just to get rid of the predators - it's
> also to not allowing yourself to be a victim in an arena where there
> will always be predators.

You know that, I know that. But I don't think it is you and I that are
crashing the world economy.
I pity those who have high debt loads while their jobs are in peril.

I don't know what the solution is, but slamming the border shut isn't
it.
I don't believe you support that either.

On Jan 31, 2:57=A0pm, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:

> =A0 What did people THINK was going to happen when they elected liberal
> statists to office? =A0That somehow they were going to get fiscal restrai=
nt
> and fiscal responsibility?

I know, I know. But I am going with John Wayne on this one; "He
wasn't my candidate, but he is my President". I am trying to give the
guy a chance and be as positive as possible. I am sick of the
infighting between politicians and the public over partisanship
issues.

I WANT things to go well. I do not care who the president is...
neither side of the isle has been able to field anyone dynamic for
years, so we are left with whatever candidate wants to face the
storm. I am not partisan; both sides stink of the feces of "bought
and paid for" politics.

I want Obama to do well as our leader, because if he does, by default
it is <possible> we might as well.

I just didn't think things would go SO horribly wrong SO fast... less
than 14 days in... I didn't have a clue those guys were that arrogant
and downright stupid.

Robert

On Feb 1, 4:39=A0am, "MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote:

> My suggestion is to just cook up another batch of
> popcorn, pull up a comfy chair, and kick back to watch the biggest circus
> sideshow to hit town in decades. There ain't jack else you or I can do ab=
out
> it.

Amen. Already in process. I am tired of feeling bad about the things
I can't do anything about. We have suffered (as Americans) decades of
bad leadership at a time, and yet we are all still here. I don't let
this stuff get to me as much as it did years ago. I have too many
other issues on my plate, so all things must be taken in perspective.


(FWIW, I've tried banning my wife from watching that kook case Lou
Dobbs
> on CNN. She mistakes his gossip and ranting for hard news and facts. I'll
> settle for her not parroting his nonsense in my presence, but she still
> slips up now and then. One day, I really will climb the roof and clip tha=
t
> satellite cable.)

With you there as well. My SO watches Fox and Friends. They can be
entertaining, they can also be pretty truthful about things, but they
also FOCUS on all things political. Mainly things that are wrong.
When she starts to makes us both miserable because she is up in arms,
I usually walk away.

I still get overwound about stoopid. But since my own personal theory
is that all politicians are pretty much the same, I gave up on getting
my blood pressure up over party lines, etc.

Robert

Hey Swing. =20

Not to rain on your parade but ---=20
I really do not care how much interest the thieves charge.
I still use my credit cards daily and=20
I get to use their money for 30 days
while mine gets 30 days of interest (all be it mighty small in =
comparison)

I Pay Them All Off when billed.

I have done so for years (about 30 of them) as that was when I figured =
out how they went about charging interest.

P D Q


"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
> "Morris Dovey" wrote
>=20
> > I cut up all my credit cards more than 30 years ago and did without =
a lot=20
> > of instant gratification - and struggled through some pretty thin =
times=20
> > with what I had. There isn't much I can say without offending a lot =
of=20
> > people - so I won't.
>=20
> Au contraire ... if meekly accepting 18 - 30% interest on credit card =
debt,=20
> in itself a clear manifestation of rampant ignorance/stupidity, is not =

> offensive, it's rather doubtful your words can be.
>=20
> --=20
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 10/22/08
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =20
>=20
>

"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:bb0a7bb9-dcff-4c1b-9ad3-6f37066bf651@v39g2000pro.googlegroups.com...=

On Feb 1, 10:17 am, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Morris Dovey" wrote
>
> > I cut up all my credit cards more than 30 years ago and did without =
a lot
> > of instant gratification - and struggled through some pretty thin =
times
> > with what I had. There isn't much I can say without offending a lot =
of
> > people - so I won't.
>
> Au contraire ... if meekly accepting 18 - 30% interest on credit card =
debt,
> in itself a clear manifestation of rampant ignorance/stupidity, is not
> offensive, it's rather doubtful your words can be.
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 10/22/08
> KarlC@ (the obvious)

We haven't cut ours up. The repose in a drawer in case of emergency
need. Every once in a bit, we charge something, and pay it off when
the bill arrives...I often use them for gas purchases now that drive-
aways are such a PITA. Most places today demand payment inside before
pumping, or a credit card. I save the walk and use the card. We very
seldom use more than $150 worth of gas a month. Actually, we very
seldom use more than $100 worth a month, UNLESS MobilExxon ow whatever
its name is this week decides to up prices.

They're handy on trips, too, as a source of emergency funds if nothing
else.

Getting my job yanked out from under me a few years ago taught me
something about credit, as well as about Woodcraft.

-------------------

I agree with you there. I would suggest a "Debit Card" for those =
emergencies which can crop up. As long as the money is there to support =
it. Any cash advance via a credit card has interest charged from the =
date of the advance to the date it is paid off. If one uses a Debit =
card all it costs is the ATM charge.

BTB, there are still a few places up here in "The Great Frozen North" =
that let one gas up first.

P D Q

In article <[email protected]>,

Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:

<...snipped...>
> What did people THINK was going to happen when they elected liberal
>statists to office? That somehow they were going to get fiscal restraint
>and fiscal responsibility?
>


Well, if they based their decision on the budget performance of Republican
vs Democratic administrations over the last 30 years or so, yes.




--
Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:978e123c-178b-44a3-aca6-5f54f9f43a93@p37g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 31, 7:15 pm, "MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Your anger and ire are misplaced. We're in the situation we're in by
> spending our money overseas. Our largess with our neighboring countries,
> through NAFTA, brought only the beneficients' scorn and disdain, while we
> suffered loss of jobs and loss of capital.

*** Major snippage ***

>Manufacturing builds a long supply chain, opening more
> domestic markets, developing still more jobs, and circulating the capital
> to
> more corners of the economy. Or something like that.

Mike, I appreciate your thoughtful response. But to me it sounds like
a high school civics lesson given by an economics teacher. You
obviously have a much more idealistic belief in our system than I do.

To use your simple analogy, I think that money given by the government
to US companies will indeed flow through our plumbing system and into
the hands of the gutter rats.

You see everything working as it would in a textbook situation. Money
flowing from the top down, everyone receiving benefits. A great plan
if it would work.

But the USA isn't that way. Individuals now steal billions of dollars
at a time. Billions. American businesses are so cavalier in their
practices that they use "bailout money" slated to assist the public to
pay themselves bonuses for jobs poorly done. With no oversight, they

===========
If it's the bailout you object to, I don't have an opinion. You already have
my thoughts on import versus domestic spending. It's the only part of it
that makes any sense, and requires very little in the way of beliefs or
idealism. If you want to rave on about crooks and thieves, greed, corruption
and wholesale lack of ethics in public office, and a government grown too
big ... what can I possibly say? Pour you another beer if you like and we
can both cry into it. My suggestion is to just cook up another batch of
popcorn, pull up a comfy chair, and kick back to watch the biggest circus
sideshow to hit town in decades. There ain't jack else you or I can do about
it. (FWIW, I've tried banning my wife from watching that kook case Lou Dobbs
on CNN. She mistakes his gossip and ranting for hard news and facts. I'll
settle for her not parroting his nonsense in my presence, but she still
slips up now and then. One day, I really will climb the roof and clip that
satellite cable.)

On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 15:02:21 -0600, Chris Friesen
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Robatoy wrote:
>> Didn't anybody learn anything in the 1930's? Protectionism is a bad
>> idea. For anybody.
>
>The new pres has already said he doesn't like NAFTA. Maybe this is the
>first step in shutting it down?
>
>On the other hand, as we've seen before the USA only abides by NAFTA
>rulings when they're in their favour.
>
>Chris
When they THINK it's in their favour

On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 06:57:12 -0800 (PST), dzin <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Jan 31, 1:53 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>> I am dumbfounded over this.  How is this supposed to repair the
>> international image of the US that Obama is so desperately trying to
>> improve?
>>
>> He wants to be the global Oprah/Phil Donahue/Wayne Dyer, yet he wants
>> to shut out our trading partners.  That should build PLENTY of good
>> will with the global community.
>>
>> The possibility of America standing on its own two legs is long, long
>> passed.  Without our trading partners we are screwed.  We are
>> incapable of turning this economy around without the help of others.
>>
>> With so many of our resources, and so much of our manufacturing and
>> construction held in the hands of just a few here in the US, I shudder
>> to think what the costs will be with little or no competition.  I
>> can't stand to think of the construction giants (which themselves are
>> global monsters - not hometown boys) getting even fatter building
>> municipal buildings and highways.
>>
>> Since Hosana wants to start these projects right away, no doubt using
>> the same financial team that has overseen the first bailout dough go
>> away (you know, 18 billion in bonuses, 2 million dollar office
>> remodels, etc.) imagine what will happen when we plunge willy-nilly
>> into selecting the biggest contractors to get going immediately.
>>
>> Budgets?  Naw.... don't need 'em.  We go no competition.
>>
>> Material pricing?  Don't worry!  Where are they gonna go?  It has to
>> stay between us!
>>
>> One of the finer points of the bill I saw in a news article said that
>> they are even going to ask that ALL tools be made in the USA.  I
>> worked on a union job as an observer for the owners of a large
>> building at one time.  They union requireed that they had ALL USA made
>> tools.  No Makita, Hitachi, DeWalt, or PC.  The only used a special
>> line by B&D, anything Milwaukee, and a couple of others.  One day,
>> both circular saws that two pairs of carpenters were using.  Since
>> their reserve saw was in use by another pair, they had none of their
>> own.  The certified USA saw from an approved vendor was somewhere en
>> route from waayyy up north.  So those four knotheads sat on their
>> hands after halfhearted looking for work for 1/2 day the first day,
>> all day the next, and a couple of hours on the third.  Finally, two
>> saws came, and four men went back to work.
>>
>> Now imagine that being done with your own hard earned dollars. Not to
>> mention that the tools cost double the amount of their international
>> competitors.  Think what that will do.
>>
>> Imagine all the tools on a job; drills, saws, sledge hammers, skid
>> steer loaders, back hoes, material dollies, you name it.  Some of that
>> stuff hasn't been made here for years.  I don't know that we have the
>> technology to build many of these machines anymore. Where does that
>> leave us?  Rather than to get going on the projects, will there be
>> even more bail out money thrown out the window to start new factories
>> so the industry cronies can finish screwing the last nickels out of
>> us?
>>
>> Do you think Obama will give up his Blackberry or cell phone to keep
>> the "buy America" campaign going his way?  After all, I am sure that
>> he only uses American made electronics, right?
>>
>> This is just starting to get worse by the day.  The arrogance and
>> stupidity of this whole bailout situation is getting ridiculous.
>>
>> Robert
>
>You are Right on! I think it's the "F" in NAFTA, that this
>administration objects to.
>They can't control business in Canada or Mexico as easily as they can
>in the US. And with this bunch, it's all about control. Hang on to
>your hats. It's going to be a Helluva ride!
>
>Gene


The government is the cause of our recession, now they are trying to
be the solution. We need "No taxes for 6 months," then I might think
about shopping. Bush nor Obama shine with financial responsibility;
too bad for USA taxpayers. Sadly, the only thing I can do is boycott
products of those who were bailed out.

On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 00:53:57 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

> The possibility of America standing on its own two legs is long, long
> passed. Without our trading partners we are screwed. We are incapable
> of turning this economy around without the help of others.

Dare I point out that we were warned about exactly that possibility a
long time ago?

And then there was Perot's giant sucking sound.

--
It's turtles, all the way down