How NOT to build a wall

"Robert Green" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> It's almost like Dell tech support, gleefully leading people to
> restore from the system disks without mentioning it would wipe out all
> their
> existing data.

Oh geez don’t get me started on Dell. I bought their top-of-the-line XPS
model less than three years ago, when the motherboard recently expired I
learned a replacement from Dell was double the cost of anyone else's
motherboard. So I got a local shop to build me a new machine that stomps
all over the old Dell in performance and isn't full of grossly overpriced
proprietary hardware.

>> But who knows,
>> the same people who can't figure out how to hook up a hard drive or nail
>> a
>> stud in place probably have other talents--at least I hope so.
>
> Let's hope so. I tend to find cluelessness in one area is often a good
> sign
> of cluelessness in others. But I think in these cases it's more than
> that.
> It's not knowing that you don't know what you're doing. That's a slightly
> more dangerous sort of ignorance than garden-variety dumb.

Perhaps part of the problem is that industry is encouraging cluelessness
with plug-n-play products that come with one-page instruction manuals and
warning labels that there are no user-repairable parts inside. Schools have
largely abandoned industrial arts classes--that doesn't help either. So we
end up with gazillions of people who have never had to use a screwdriver in
their lives because they've never been asked to, hanging a picture on the
wall would be a triumph of tool use for them. Of course there are
opportunities there; our local family-owned hardware store runs classes for
women who want to learn basic home maintenance skills, so they get $60 a
head from the students and pick up loyal customers at the same time--that's
smart business.

"Robert Green" wrote

> I will have to admit, the first walls I put up at age 16 had their flaws,
> but they WERE on 16" centers!

Grin, first one I did had to match an older house. 12.75 inch. It was a
replacement due to termite damage of a semi-structural wall along a
stairwell (with closet underneath). Original followed the steps and we
wanted to match to the undamaged other wall wood of the closet. The stairs
were actually falling down on that damaged side so had to use metal supports
(the sort where you twist to rise until hit it right). Major pain in the
ass with leveling everything. Mom also insisted it be cedar to match the
other side and we had to have that special ordered because they hadnt
crossbarred shorter lenghts on the original wall and we needed over 10 foot
3x6 pieces for the stretches at the top end.

We were in a small town and had to order from Charlottesville VA (about 1
hour drive away). I still chuckle about the guy driving up and asking Mom
for her husband. She saw the wood and told him, 'oh, thats for Carol.
CAARROOLL! Your wood is here!'. I'd slept in late and came trotting out in
my PJ's with a level in one hand and a muffin half eaten in the other. He
didnt stop laughing until I showed him exactly why I had rejected 2 of the
pieces. He gave Mom his card after I took him inside and showed the specs I
needed for some of the floor beams and 10x2 oak flooring replacements in the
far bedroom.

Lets not embarass anyone with my age then. Just say, young enough to come
trotting out in my PJ's (girly snicker) and old enough to grab a level.

Yeah, well, you should see the sheetrock taping job a presumably
professional builder did in my closet. It's diagonal, not at a right
angle to fit against where the wall and ceiling meet.

The first time I used tape it wasn't perfect but it was a hundred
times better.

So it's not only amateurs...

On Aug 7, 7:27=A0am, "Robert Green" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "DGDevin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > "Robert Green" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
>
> > > In short, WD has failed to teach her how to do nearly everything that
> ten
> > > years of experience makes it seem easy. =A0There was never any admiss=
ion
> she
> > > was in over her head. =A0This was someone else's fault. =A0She did no=
t know
> > > all
> > > the things she needed to know and did not even KNOW how deficient her
> > > knowledge was!
>
> > Well I've never had any training on how to fix or modify PCs, yet over =
the
>
> . . .
>
> For at least ten years, there WAS no formal training in PCs to speak of, =
but
> if you read the instructions, the trade mags, BBS faqs and the like AND y=
ou
> had a feel for such things, you could easily learn enough to get by bette=
r
> than most. =A0I've built about thirty machines and fixed God knows how ma=
ny
> more. =A0I've ruined a lot of gear, too - but experience gained is
> proportional to the amount of equipment destroyed (-:. =A0I also got a lo=
t of
> stuff after the fact - like people blowing a power supply trying to insta=
ll
> an AGP video card in a machine without an AGP video card slot. =A0Botched
> memory and hard drive upgrades accounted for a lot of the DOA's that ende=
d
> up on my workbench.
>
>
>
> > . . . years (my first PC had an 8088 processor) =A0I've successfully
> installed hard
> > drives, audio and video cards, power supplies and so on. =A0I think the
> trick
> > is in being able to honestly gauge what one can or cannot do, and in be=
ing
> > able to follow instructions (and know when to call for help). =A0Some p=
eople
> > just don't seem set up for that sort of problem solving. =A0I once ran =
a
> > business where we made good money undoing the "repairs" and "customizin=
g"
> > such folks did....
>
> If you can do a brake job, you can do a lot of PC repair. =A0The devil is=
in
> the details. =A0But what do you do when you've got a new drive that just =
won't
> boot no matter what? =A0Or a new CD burner that keeps spitting out coaste=
rs
> (back when blanks were $5 each!)? =A0 Or a modem that won't stay on line?
> That's where skill, experience and good problem solving skills come into
> play.
>
> (Don't get me started on problem solving skills. =A0We hired a lot of
> "wannabees" in our IT department because management was unwilling to pay =
top
> dollar for really good people. =A0What they didn't realize was that by hi=
ring
> incompetents to service machines that engineers, accountants, lawyers and
> others depended on to do THEIR work, net productivity plummeted. =A0It wa=
s
> really false economy.)
>
> You can tell by watching which techies evaluate all the clues first and
> which guys come in and do a "defrag" as the universal solution to all
> problems without a single actual thought about what the problem is or how=
to
> fix it. =A0It's almost like Dell tech support, gleefully leading people t=
o
> restore from the system disks without mentioning it would wipe out all th=
eir
> existing data.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Putting up a wall must seem the same to some people. =A0At one time, =
in
> real
> > > life or on TV, they see some master carpenter put up a wall and it lo=
oks
> > > SO
> > > easy. =A0They know they can make all those same motions so off they g=
o,
> > > never
> > > even bothering to check out a Time-Life book from the library (old
> world)
> > > or
> > > Google it on line (new world).
>
> > I find watching someone who knows what he is doing to be way more
> > educational than an instruction manual could possibly be (at least for
> me).
> > And if you're paying attention you notice things, like the carpenter is
> > driving nails in sort of a criss-cross fashion and without being told w=
hy
> it
> > seems to make sense.
>
> The person I am describing was so self-absorbed she would not notice in a
> million years how a craftsman did their work. =A0She moved out of a rooft=
op
> condo at a LOSS at the height of the real estate boom because the roof
> leaked in the rain. =A0She would go slate blank whenever confronted with
> something that was "too hard" like condo maintenance, computers, cars or
> income taxes.
>
>
>
> > I don't know if this building/fixing ability is
> > something we're born with (or without) or if it can be learned, but
> clearly
> > a lot of otherwise functioning adults don't see to have it.
>
> You can say that again. =A0My sister couldn't survive in the modern world
> without technical assistance from my BIL and my nephew. =A0I think it's
> genetic because as soon I turned thirteen, I was building, building,
> building. Fortunately, I had some great carpenters and cabinet makers to
> watch. =A0That makes a big difference but some people could be watching
> Michaelangelo creating a sculpture and not learn one thing about his
> technique.
>
> > But who knows,
> > the same people who can't figure out how to hook up a hard drive or nai=
l a
> > stud in place probably have other talents--at least I hope so.
>
> Let's hope so. =A0I tend to find cluelessness in one area is often a good=
sign
> of cluelessness in others. =A0But I think in these cases it's more than t=
hat.
> It's not knowing that you don't know what you're doing. =A0That's a sligh=
tly
> more dangerous sort of ignorance than garden-variety dumb.
>
> --
> Bobby G.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

My paperwork skills SUCK:(

But I have great mechanical ability to fix things, can strike up a
conversation with a total stranger and tend to be a good surviivor
when things go bad.

On Aug 6, 11:07=A0pm, "Lee Michaels" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
>
>
> > I'm just finishing the demolition phase of a minor remodeling project i=
n
> > my
> > basement, removing about 8 feet of wall installed by a previous homeown=
er.
> > This project teaches a lesson:
>
> > How NOT to Build a Wall, in Ten Easy Steps
>
> > 1. Install the studs at random intervals.
> > 2. Don't bother securing the bottom plate to the floor. If you cut a fe=
w
> > of
> > the studs just a bit long, and force-fit them, friction will keep the
> > bottom
> > plate in place.
> > 3. Don't bother nailing those studs in place. Friction, remember?
> > 4. Attach remaining studs to plates with six-penny box nails.
> > 5. Use eight at each end because they're so small.
> > 6. It's OK to use untreated lumber for the bottom plate. Water seepage
> > won't
> > harm fir, will it?
> > 7. Use regular sheetrock for the entire wall. Water seepage won't harm
> > that
> > either, will it?
> > 8. The doorpost doesn't need to be attached to the bottom plate. The
> > sheetrock
> > will keep it from moving.
> > 9. Nail the sheetrock every 3 inches along each vertical edge.
> > 10. That gives you enough nails that you don't need to nail it anywhere
> > else.
>
> Well, look at the bright side. The obvious lack of fasteners must have ma=
de
> the demolition job easier.
>
> > And don't _even_ get me started on the electrical code violations I fou=
nd
> > inside that wall...
>
> > Why, oh why, do people with no knowledge or experience of the building
> > trades
> > imagine that they are competent to do their own construction?
>
> My last house was full of surprises like this. =A0They obviously thought =
it
> was OK. =A0Anything goes. No sense of pride. Total garbage work.
>
> I broke up some concrete in the back yard to expand the garage. Instead o=
f
> rebar in the concrete, I found parts of an old refrigerator and bread tra=
ys
> from a bakery. =A0Whatever was laying around got used.

Three magic demolition items:

GR=C4NSFORS
20# Sledge
Sawzall


or

Nobel's Finestkind. ( A bit harder to control)

"FrozenNorth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 8/06/10 9:36 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>
>> Why, oh why, do people with no knowledge or experience of the building
>> trades
>> imagine that they are competent to do their own construction?
>
> Been there done that. Previous owner left behind several mason jars full
> of mixed screws, seemed odd. Then I started removing stuff that he had
> built and need eight different bits to take them apart, what a pain in the
> backside, can't even imagine wanting to build something that way.
>
> Last two or three pieces of his handiwork that I have removed, recip saw,
> hell with the mess, it is less frustrating.
>
> --
> Froz...


Someday, maybe I'll post pictures of some of the electrical outlets in my
house. Some are just crooked. In several places, the box itself sticks out
1/4" on one side, so the plates don't fit flush. I asked the previous owner
about that when I moved in. He said the boxes stuck out "because of the
lath".

Huh? I installed new boxes in plaster/lath walls in my previous house.
There's no reason for them to look like they're trying to escape the wall.

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm just finishing the demolition phase of a minor remodeling project in
> my
> basement, removing about 8 feet of wall installed by a previous homeowner.
> This project teaches a lesson:
>
> How NOT to Build a Wall, in Ten Easy Steps
>
> 1. Install the studs at random intervals.
> 2. Don't bother securing the bottom plate to the floor. If you cut a few
> of
> the studs just a bit long, and force-fit them, friction will keep the
> bottom
> plate in place.
> 3. Don't bother nailing those studs in place. Friction, remember?
> 4. Attach remaining studs to plates with six-penny box nails.
> 5. Use eight at each end because they're so small.
> 6. It's OK to use untreated lumber for the bottom plate. Water seepage
> won't
> harm fir, will it?
> 7. Use regular sheetrock for the entire wall. Water seepage won't harm
> that
> either, will it?
> 8. The doorpost doesn't need to be attached to the bottom plate. The
> sheetrock
> will keep it from moving.
> 9. Nail the sheetrock every 3 inches along each vertical edge.
> 10. That gives you enough nails that you don't need to nail it anywhere
> else.
>

Well, look at the bright side. The obvious lack of fasteners must have made
the demolition job easier.


> And don't _even_ get me started on the electrical code violations I found
> inside that wall...
>
> Why, oh why, do people with no knowledge or experience of the building
> trades
> imagine that they are competent to do their own construction?

My last house was full of surprises like this. They obviously thought it
was OK. Anything goes. No sense of pride. Total garbage work.

I broke up some concrete in the back yard to expand the garage. Instead of
rebar in the concrete, I found parts of an old refrigerator and bread trays
from a bakery. Whatever was laying around got used.

"Mike M" wrote:


> The main thing I did was commercial exterior electrical jobs.
> Surprised how many repair jobs came from cars hitting concrete pole
> bases that sheared off. No one told the electrical contractor to
> use
> rebar. My favorite is the emergency call to a grocery store where
> the
> fork lift is almost 20' in the air keeping the pole from falling
> over.
> Not surprising we found the pvc was only 6" under the asphalt.
------------------------------
Guess my area had pretty good contractors including a couple who
specialized in roadway work

Standard practice was to set the SonoTubes 36" above grade and tie the
anchor bolts to the rebar.

Lost a few car bumpers but no poles in the parking lot.

Lew

On Aug 8, 7:47=A0am, FrozenNorth <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On 8/08/10 9:56 AM, Harry K wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 6, 6:36 pm, [email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
> >> I'm just finishing the demolition phase of a minor remodeling project =
in my
> >> basement, removing about 8 feet of wall installed by a previous homeow=
ner.
> >> This project teaches a lesson:
>
> >> How NOT to Build a Wall, in Ten Easy Steps
>
> >> 1. Install the studs at random intervals.
> >> 2. Don't bother securing the bottom plate to the floor. If you cut a f=
ew of
> >> the studs just a bit long, and force-fit them, friction will keep the =
bottom
> >> plate in place.
> >> 3. Don't bother nailing those studs in place. Friction, remember?
> >> 4. Attach remaining studs to plates with six-penny box nails.
> >> 5. Use eight at each end because they're so small.
> >> 6. It's OK to use untreated lumber for the bottom plate. Water seepage=
won't
> >> harm fir, will it?
> >> 7. Use regular sheetrock for the entire wall. Water seepage won't harm=
that
> >> either, will it?
> >> 8. The doorpost doesn't need to be attached to the bottom plate. The s=
heetrock
> >> will keep it from moving.
> >> 9. Nail the sheetrock every 3 inches along each vertical edge.
> >> 10. That gives you enough nails that you don't need to nail it anywher=
e else.
>
> >> And don't _even_ get me started on the electrical code violations I fo=
und
> >> inside that wall...
>
> >> Why, oh why, do people with no knowledge or experience of the building=
trades
> >> imagine that they are competent to do their own construction?
>
> > When I got around to changing the old kitchen into a bedroom after
> > adding an addition, I found that the proud former owner had used
> > scraps of sheetrock to do the walls. =A0Pieces as small a 1' square!
> > the price of mud he used probablywould have bought new sheetrock.
>
> I don't even want to know how you hand a 1' square piece of drywall on
> studs with a 16" centre. =A0yikes.
>
> --
> Froz...
>
> The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.- Hide quo=
ted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Old construction, the walls were the old wood ship lap. This must
have been built way back. After some research I found out it had been
_two_ shacks shoved together.

Harry K

On Fri, 6 Aug 2010 21:48:09 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Mike M" wrote:
>
>
>> The main thing I did was commercial exterior electrical jobs.
>> Surprised how many repair jobs came from cars hitting concrete pole
>> bases that sheared off. No one told the electrical contractor to
>> use
>> rebar. My favorite is the emergency call to a grocery store where
>> the
>> fork lift is almost 20' in the air keeping the pole from falling
>> over.
>> Not surprising we found the pvc was only 6" under the asphalt.
>------------------------------
>Guess my area had pretty good contractors including a couple who
>specialized in roadway work
>
>Standard practice was to set the SonoTubes 36" above grade and tie the
>anchor bolts to the rebar.
>
>Lost a few car bumpers but no poles in the parking lot.
>
>Lew
>
>
Yes that's the style I usually use as well. Most contractors know to
use rebar, and some jurisdiction want to inspect before you pour, but
there is always someone looking to get it done the easy way. Even had
one survive a garbage truck other then damaging the J bolt. One
engineer used to spec 6' anchor bolts just in case.

Mike M

"Lee Michaels" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> I broke up some concrete in the back yard to expand the garage. Instead of
> rebar in the concrete, I found parts of an old refrigerator and bread
> trays from a bakery. Whatever was laying around got used.

That one is a keeper, I just told SWMBO about that and she got a hoot out of
it. That's up there with the folks who tried to get more paint out of spray
cans by heating them in the oven.

On Aug 6, 10:32=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Aug 6, 10:19=A0pm, FrozenNorth <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 8/06/10 9:36 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>
> > > Why, oh why, do people with no knowledge or experience of the buildin=
g trades
> > > imagine that they are competent to do their own construction?
>
> > Been there done that. =A0Previous owner left behind several mason jars
> > full of mixed screws, seemed odd. =A0Then I started removing stuff that=
he
> > had built and need eight different bits to take them apart, what a pain
> > in the backside, can't even imagine wanting to build something that way=
.
>
> > Last two or three pieces of his handiwork that I have removed, recip
> > saw, hell with the mess, it is less frustrating.
>
> > --
> > Froz...
>
> > The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.
>
> A house, 3 doors down from mine, had the entire family room wired with
> those cheapo 18ga extension cords. They were held in place between the
> block foundation and the 2x3 studs which were concrete nailed in
> place. No insulation, no vapour barrier. The studs were then covered
> with hardboard panelling, no drywall. I have built theatre sets
> (flats) with more integrity.

I went to an "A card" carrying electrician's house years ago and he
had some bare receptacles nailed to the bottom of window sills
(inside) wired with lamp cord!!! WTFrenchToast

On Sat, 7 Aug 2010 09:29:02 -0700, "DGDevin" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>
>"aemeijers" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>> I ain't proud- for stuff I don't know how to do, I'll seek out someone
>> who does, even when I have to pay for it. And with the passing years, my
>> understanding of the holes in my expertise has become more detailed.
>
>Oh yeah, that's why I hired a guy to do the plaster in our bedroom rather
>than make a mess of it myself. I also hired somebody to refinish the
>hardware floor, although having watched it done I'd be prepared to tackle
>that myself next time. The stuff like baseboard and painting and redoing my
>wife's closet I did because I figured I could.

Plaster is an art, not something I'd ever have the time or need to learn. I
also hired someone to put in a hardwood (bamboo, actually) floor. I wish I'd
just bitten the bullet and done it myself. I had never seen it done and
thought it would have taken a lot more knowledge to do. I did tile without
having seen it done and there's a lot more to tile, IMO.

>BTW, if you want to get on your wife's good side, design and build her a new
>closet that increases her clothing storage capacity by 50% in the same
>closet--that's Eggs Benedict for breakfast for quite some time.

She would never do that to me. Though on second thought, she might because it
does take me a lot of time to actually finish projects. ;-)

Doug Miller wrote:
> I'm just finishing the demolition phase of a minor remodeling project in my
> basement, removing about 8 feet of wall installed by a previous homeowner.
> This project teaches a lesson:
>
> How NOT to Build a Wall, in Ten Easy Steps
>
> 1. Install the studs at random intervals.
> 2. Don't bother securing the bottom plate to the floor. If you cut a few of
> the studs just a bit long, and force-fit them, friction will keep the bottom
> plate in place.
snip
> Why, oh why, do people with no knowledge or experience of the building trades
> imagine that they are competent to do their own construction?

When we were building a house in Texas the builder came every
afternoon to check on the framers. He had a big red marker and would
look down a wall then would put big X's on the studs that stood out.
The framers would take these out and replace them with straighter ones.

We moved to Georgia and had planned on building again. We visited one
builder at a job site and noticed that about 1 out of 3 studs were out
of alignment. When I pointed it out to the builder he said, "the
sheetrock will straighten them all out." Then we visited a finished
house he had built. The walls looked like snake tracks. The sheetrock
had not helped straighten them. We marked him off our list.
--
Gerald Ross
Cochran, GA

Wisdom consists of the anticipation of
consequences. -Norman Cousins

Lee Michaels wrote:
> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I'm just finishing the demolition phase of a minor remodeling project in
>> my
>> basement, removing about 8 feet of wall installed by a previous homeowner.
>> This project teaches a lesson:
>>
>> How NOT to Build a Wall, in Ten Easy Steps
>>
>> 1. Install the studs at random intervals.
>> 2. Don't bother securing the bottom plate to the floor. If you cut a few
>> of
>> the studs just a bit long, and force-fit them, friction will keep the
>> bottom
>> plate in place.
>> 3. Don't bother nailing those studs in place. Friction, remember?
>> 4. Attach remaining studs to plates with six-penny box nails.
>> 5. Use eight at each end because they're so small.
>> 6. It's OK to use untreated lumber for the bottom plate. Water seepage
>> won't
>> harm fir, will it?
>> 7. Use regular sheetrock for the entire wall. Water seepage won't harm
>> that
>> either, will it?
>> 8. The doorpost doesn't need to be attached to the bottom plate. The
>> sheetrock
>> will keep it from moving.
>> 9. Nail the sheetrock every 3 inches along each vertical edge.
>> 10. That gives you enough nails that you don't need to nail it anywhere
>> else.
>>
>
> Well, look at the bright side. The obvious lack of fasteners must have made
> the demolition job easier.
>
>
>> And don't _even_ get me started on the electrical code violations I found
>> inside that wall...
>>
>> Why, oh why, do people with no knowledge or experience of the building
>> trades
>> imagine that they are competent to do their own construction?
>
> My last house was full of surprises like this. They obviously thought it
> was OK. Anything goes. No sense of pride. Total garbage work.
>
> I broke up some concrete in the back yard to expand the garage. Instead of
> rebar in the concrete, I found parts of an old refrigerator and bread trays
> from a bakery. Whatever was laying around got used.
>

So YOU bought my parents old house! Try digging around here and there,
soon enough you will hit an I beam or a car engine.

Robert Green wrote:
(snip)
> Let's hope so. I tend to find cluelessness in one area is often a good sign
> of cluelessness in others. But I think in these cases it's more than that.
> It's not knowing that you don't know what you're doing. That's a slightly
> more dangerous sort of ignorance than garden-variety dumb.
>

THAT is a critical ability to have, in life in general, not just home
repair, PC repair, or whatever. There is no sin in not knowing how to do
something, and I'll go out of my way to help people like that when they
ask, or honestly tell them it is outside MY skill set. The ones who try
to BS or fake their way through it, not so much.

I ain't proud- for stuff I don't know how to do, I'll seek out someone
who does, even when I have to pay for it. And with the passing years, my
understanding of the holes in my expertise has become more detailed.

--
aem sends...

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm just finishing the demolition phase of a minor remodeling project in
> my
> basement, removing about 8 feet of wall installed by a previous homeowner.
> This project teaches a lesson:
>
> How NOT to Build a Wall, in Ten Easy Steps
>
> 1. Install the studs at random intervals.
> 2. Don't bother securing the bottom plate to the floor. If you cut a few
> of
> the studs just a bit long, and force-fit them, friction will keep the
> bottom
> plate in place.
> 3. Don't bother nailing those studs in place. Friction, remember?
> 4. Attach remaining studs to plates with six-penny box nails.
> 5. Use eight at each end because they're so small.
> 6. It's OK to use untreated lumber for the bottom plate. Water seepage
> won't
> harm fir, will it?
> 7. Use regular sheetrock for the entire wall. Water seepage won't harm
> that
> either, will it?
> 8. The doorpost doesn't need to be attached to the bottom plate. The
> sheetrock
> will keep it from moving.
> 9. Nail the sheetrock every 3 inches along each vertical edge.
> 10. That gives you enough nails that you don't need to nail it anywhere
> else.


What shocks me and is a common practice is to install interior door jams
with no nails in the jam. Staples in the jam moldings hold it all in place.
They don't need no stinkin shims.

Doug Miller wrote:
> I'm just finishing the demolition phase of a minor remodeling project
> in my basement, removing about 8 feet of wall installed by a previous
> homeowner. This project teaches a lesson:
>
> How NOT to Build a Wall, in Ten Easy Steps
>
> 1. Install the studs at random intervals.
> 2. Don't bother securing the bottom plate to the floor. If you cut a
> few of the studs just a bit long, and force-fit them, friction will
> keep the bottom plate in place.
> 3. Don't bother nailing those studs in place. Friction, remember?
> 4. Attach remaining studs to plates with six-penny box nails.
> 5. Use eight at each end because they're so small.
> 6. It's OK to use untreated lumber for the bottom plate. Water
> seepage won't harm fir, will it?
> 7. Use regular sheetrock for the entire wall. Water seepage won't
> harm that either, will it?
> 8. The doorpost doesn't need to be attached to the bottom plate. The
> sheetrock will keep it from moving.
> 9. Nail the sheetrock every 3 inches along each vertical edge.
> 10. That gives you enough nails that you don't need to nail it
> anywhere else.
>
> And don't _even_ get me started on the electrical code violations I
> found inside that wall...
>
> Why, oh why, do people with no knowledge or experience of the
> building trades imagine that they are competent to do their own
> construction?

I guess if he thought it merely "looked" good enough, someone would buy it.

"cshenk" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> Snipped but LOL! Best part was no floor anchoring. That was the least
> fun part of finishing a basement but it's got to be done and done right.
Yep. One of the best things anyone has invented for building recently, is
the self tapping concrete screw. Trying to anchor anything in old concrete
used to mean a gunpowder powered nail, but now, drill a hole and drive a
screw. So easy. Also, if any of you don't yet have an impact driver
(cordless) you need to get one. They are the stuff for driving hard to
drive things like concrete screws, and deck type screws.
--
Jim in NC

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 8/7/2010 4:12 PM, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
>> "HeyBub"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I have a theory that the internet is behind the pathetic trend toward
>>>> helplessness. I wonder how many youngsters consider going to the
>>>> library for a book to help them with a project they've never
>>>> attempted. Does anyone even notice that there are shelves full of
>>>> books as you walk into Home Depot or Lowe's?
>>>>
>>>
>>> BOOKS? In a LIBRARY? How quaint.
>>>
>>> Mine has hand puppets, games, wall art, toys, videos, and a few other
>>> odds
>>> and ends.
>>>
>>> They do have a spinner rack containing historical romances ("bodice
>>> rippers") with a sign: "Leave two, take two".
>>>
>>> Libraries have abrogated their classical role as repositories of
>>> information. Most should be burnt to the ground and the ashes scattered.
>>> Not to worry, you won't be burning books!
>>>
>>> To be even more topical, there are libraries in Berkeley that loans
>>> tools
>>> (power saws, pressure washers, ladders, post hole diggers, etc.). Buncha
>>> goddamn communists, you ask me.
>>>
>>
>>
>> If that's how things are where you live, it's because of YOU.
>
> Uh, how is what the libraries contain "because of HIM"?
>
> In most towns the library has limited shelf space and tosses anything that
> doesn't move regularly. Are you saying that he should go regularly check
> out carpentry books that cover material that he has long since mastered
> just so the library will keep them?


What he described is a dysfunctional library. An extreme. Libraries like
that are reflections of their patrons' indifference.

That's quite different from what you said, which is a moderate and correct
view.

"Robert Green" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> In short, WD has failed to teach her how to do nearly everything that ten
> years of experience makes it seem easy. There was never any admission she
> was in over her head. This was someone else's fault. She did not know
> all
> the things she needed to know and did not even KNOW how deficient her
> knowledge was!

Well I've never had any training on how to fix or modify PCs, yet over the
years (my first PC had an 8088 processor) I've successfully installed hard
drives, audio and video cards, power supplies and so on. I think the trick
is in being able to honestly gauge what one can or cannot do, and in being
able to follow instructions (and know when to call for help). Some people
just don't seem set up for that sort of problem solving. I once ran a
business where we made good money undoing the "repairs" and "customizing"
such folks did....

> Putting up a wall must seem the same to some people. At one time, in real
> life or on TV, they see some master carpenter put up a wall and it looks
> SO
> easy. They know they can make all those same motions so off they go,
> never
> even bothering to check out a Time-Life book from the library (old world)
> or
> Google it on line (new world).

I find watching someone who knows what he is doing to be way more
educational than an instruction manual could possibly be (at least for me).
And if you're paying attention you notice things, like the carpenter is
driving nails in sort of a criss-cross fashion and without being told why it
seems to make sense. I don't know if this building/fixing ability is
something we're born with (or without) or if it can be learned, but clearly
a lot of otherwise functioning adults don't see to have it. But who knows,
the same people who can't figure out how to hook up a hard drive or nail a
stud in place probably have other talents--at least I hope so.

"Doug Miller" wrote

> I'm just finishing the demolition phase of a minor remodeling project in
> my
> basement, removing about 8 feet of wall installed by a previous homeowner.
> This project teaches a lesson:

> How NOT to Build a Wall, in Ten Easy Steps

Snipped but LOL! Best part was no floor anchoring. That was the least fun
part of finishing a basement but it's got to be done and done right.

"DGDevin" wrote
> "Lee Michaels" wrote in message

>> I broke up some concrete in the back yard to expand the garage. Instead
>> of rebar in the concrete, I found parts of an old refrigerator and bread
>> trays from a bakery. Whatever was laying around got used.

> That one is a keeper, I just told SWMBO about that and she got a hoot out
> of it. That's up there with the folks who tried to get more paint out of
> spray cans by heating them in the oven.

When our brick cookout subsumbed, we dinally took it out. Piece de la
resistance? A broken lawnmover in the base. I guess gravel was too
expensive that year (grin).

J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
[snip]
> If you've got a good library then it's a good resource. But it doesn't
> take much effort to exhaust most libraries. Searching my local library's
> catalog on "table saw" gets "Collected Poems of Constantine Cavafy",
> "Weeds, Season 4", "Under Town", "Boone: A Biography", and "Verses [of
> Ogden Nash] from 1929 On".
>
> "Carpentry" found a bunch of childrens' books, a few on trim and finish
> carpentry, and four that might be decent--they've been out of print so
> long that Amazon doesn't even have a picture of them so I can't tell for
> sure. Their holdings on that topic are so meager that I'm tempted to cart
> some of the books that I'm done with down and donate them.

We have several public libraries close enough that my daughter-units can
bike easily enough to most of them. I've donated books to each over the
years and it's not that they don't have an over-supply from willing patrons.
It's the resources to bind them for shelving and use, catalog them, and then
put them out so they get used.

Tangential thought: I watched one mom put a book back because it was "old
and a hard-back" (I asked because I knew the book was a good read.) It
didn't have a cover sexy enough to hold her daughter's attention. Gahdferbid
the story do that...

If your local library has volunteer hours, find out what you can do to
assist them in getting their back-logged books out on the shelves. If it's
like our system, you'll have to go through _some_ training but once you're
in you can make a difference.

The Ranger

"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 07 Aug 2010 01:36:39 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
> wrote:
>>Why, oh why, do people with no knowledge or experience of the building
>>trades
>>imagine that they are competent to do their own construction?
>
> Think I remember doing that job. It was my first day on the job, I was
> 16, drunk and brand new to being an apprentice. The contractor for the
> job told me I had two hours to build the wall or I wouldn't get paid.


Was that a quick job cuz the previous home owner had just sold the house?
;~)

"Robert Green" wrote

> For at least ten years, there WAS no formal training in PCs to speak of,
> but
> if you read the instructions, the trade mags, BBS faqs and the like AND
> you
> had a feel for such things, you could easily learn enough to get by better
> than most. I've built about thirty machines and fixed God knows how many
> more. I've ruined a lot of gear, too - but experience gained is

Same here. BTW, if you want to see what BBSes became:

telnet://shenks.synchro.net

> (Don't get me started on problem solving skills. We hired a lot of
> "wannabees" in our IT department because management was unwilling to pay
> top
> dollar for really good people. What they didn't realize was that by
> hiring
> incompetents to service machines that engineers, accountants, lawyers and
> others depended on to do THEIR work, net productivity plummeted. It was
> really false economy.)

The problem is they teach everything but problem solving.

Saw that just last week. Ship had slow response to the desktop for
application the person was involved in. Server groom didnt fix it. It's
obvious why. They kept assuming software but didnt ask questions. The
application was blindingly fast when run direct in ADP.

1- is it slow everywhere or only some computers?
2- do those same slow computers also have internet web access slow downs?
3- Does it happen only in port?

1a- check switch, specifically fiber degrade to servers. Signal loss do to
that last hurricane evasion damaging end points
2a- almost sure to be signal loss. This time, in and out of switch needs a
TDR
3a- Last ship complain? Check peier and pier cable
3b- No other ships at same pier with issue, check pier connection on ship
and fiber swap in radio
3c- No others with same issue, first time for a long time using port or
starboard connector, check connector.

Instead, they groomed the servers and switches for software and were
mistified at the slow-down.

The answer BTW was 3C, first use in 2 years of port connector and the caps
corroded with salt. Pier connection and cable were fine. I was groaning
and laughing at the same time.

In article <[email protected]>,
Tony <[email protected]> wrote:

> So YOU bought my parents old house! Try digging around here and there,
> soon enough you will hit an I beam or a car engine.

Which brings up the REAL question.. will he find your parents???

--
I want to find a voracious, small-minded predator
and name it after the IRS.
Robert Bakker, paleontologist

On Aug 6, 9:36=A0pm, [email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
> I'm just finishing the demolition phase of a minor remodeling project in =
my
> basement, removing about 8 feet of wall installed by a previous homeowner=
.
> This project teaches a lesson:
>
> How NOT to Build a Wall, in Ten Easy Steps
>
> 1. Install the studs at random intervals.
> 2. Don't bother securing the bottom plate to the floor. If you cut a few =
of
> the studs just a bit long, and force-fit them, friction will keep the bot=
tom
> plate in place.
> 3. Don't bother nailing those studs in place. Friction, remember?
> 4. Attach remaining studs to plates with six-penny box nails.
> 5. Use eight at each end because they're so small.
> 6. It's OK to use untreated lumber for the bottom plate. Water seepage wo=
n't
> harm fir, will it?
> 7. Use regular sheetrock for the entire wall. Water seepage won't harm th=
at
> either, will it?
> 8. The doorpost doesn't need to be attached to the bottom plate. The shee=
trock
> will keep it from moving.
> 9. Nail the sheetrock every 3 inches along each vertical edge.
> 10. That gives you enough nails that you don't need to nail it anywhere e=
lse.
>
> And don't _even_ get me started on the electrical code violations I found
> inside that wall...
>
> Why, oh why, do people with no knowledge or experience of the building tr=
ades
> imagine that they are competent to do their own construction?

Apparently the "force fit and let friction take over" practice is not
unique.

I just removed a bi-fold door in an old house apartment that my moved
into.

The bi-fold doors were shorter than the original door opening - by a
foot - so they install a new "header".

They screwed the header (an unpainted pine board) into the jamb on the
dumb end of the bi-fold and forced the pivoting end into the opening.

I guess if you're going to do a job half-way, you might as well do
that half wrong.

"HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
>>
>> I have a theory that the internet is behind the pathetic trend toward
>> helplessness. I wonder how many youngsters consider going to the
>> library for a book to help them with a project they've never
>> attempted. Does anyone even notice that there are shelves full of
>> books as you walk into Home Depot or Lowe's?
>>
>
> BOOKS? In a LIBRARY? How quaint.
>
> Mine has hand puppets, games, wall art, toys, videos, and a few other odds
> and ends.
>
> They do have a spinner rack containing historical romances ("bodice
> rippers") with a sign: "Leave two, take two".
>
> Libraries have abrogated their classical role as repositories of
> information. Most should be burnt to the ground and the ashes scattered.
> Not to worry, you won't be burning books!
>
> To be even more topical, there are libraries in Berkeley that loans tools
> (power saws, pressure washers, ladders, post hole diggers, etc.). Buncha
> goddamn communists, you ask me.
>


If that's how things are where you live, it's because of YOU.

On Aug 6, 6:36=A0pm, [email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
> I'm just finishing the demolition phase of a minor remodeling project in =
my
> basement, removing about 8 feet of wall installed by a previous homeowner=
.
> This project teaches a lesson:
>
> How NOT to Build a Wall, in Ten Easy Steps
>
> 1. Install the studs at random intervals.
> 2. Don't bother securing the bottom plate to the floor. If you cut a few =
of
> the studs just a bit long, and force-fit them, friction will keep the bot=
tom
> plate in place.
> 3. Don't bother nailing those studs in place. Friction, remember?
> 4. Attach remaining studs to plates with six-penny box nails.
> 5. Use eight at each end because they're so small.
> 6. It's OK to use untreated lumber for the bottom plate. Water seepage wo=
n't
> harm fir, will it?
> 7. Use regular sheetrock for the entire wall. Water seepage won't harm th=
at
> either, will it?
> 8. The doorpost doesn't need to be attached to the bottom plate. The shee=
trock
> will keep it from moving.
> 9. Nail the sheetrock every 3 inches along each vertical edge.
> 10. That gives you enough nails that you don't need to nail it anywhere e=
lse.
>
> And don't _even_ get me started on the electrical code violations I found
> inside that wall...
>
> Why, oh why, do people with no knowledge or experience of the building tr=
ades
> imagine that they are competent to do their own construction?

When I got around to changing the old kitchen into a bedroom after
adding an addition, I found that the proud former owner had used
scraps of sheetrock to do the walls. Pieces as small a 1' square!
the price of mud he used probablywould have bought new sheetrock.

Harry K

"aemeijers" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> I ain't proud- for stuff I don't know how to do, I'll seek out someone
> who does, even when I have to pay for it. And with the passing years, my
> understanding of the holes in my expertise has become more detailed.

Oh yeah, that's why I hired a guy to do the plaster in our bedroom rather
than make a mess of it myself. I also hired somebody to refinish the
hardware floor, although having watched it done I'd be prepared to tackle
that myself next time. The stuff like baseboard and painting and redoing my
wife's closet I did because I figured I could.

BTW, if you want to get on your wife's good side, design and build her a new
closet that increases her clothing storage capacity by 50% in the same
closet--that's Eggs Benedict for breakfast for quite some time.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> "Carpentry" found a bunch of childrens' books, a few on trim and finish
> carpentry, and four that might be decent--they've been out of print so
> long that Amazon doesn't even have a picture of them so I can't tell for
> sure. Their holdings on that topic are so meager that I'm tempted to cart
> some of the books that I'm done with down and donate them.

My wife and I have done that. They accept donated books for two reasons:
either they sell them to raise money (if they don't need/want them on the
shelves) or in some cases they'll put them in a library binding and
circulate them if it's a title they'd like to have (but currently cannot
afford to buy). We've had a lot of use out of our local public library so
we don't mind giving them books we no longer have room for. And it doesn't
matter how many bookcases I build, they're always instantly full as soon as
they're in place.

On Aug 6, 10:19=A0pm, FrozenNorth <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On 8/06/10 9:36 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>
>
>
> > Why, oh why, do people with no knowledge or experience of the building =
trades
> > imagine that they are competent to do their own construction?
>
> Been there done that. =A0Previous owner left behind several mason jars
> full of mixed screws, seemed odd. =A0Then I started removing stuff that h=
e
> had built and need eight different bits to take them apart, what a pain
> in the backside, can't even imagine wanting to build something that way.
>
> Last two or three pieces of his handiwork that I have removed, recip
> saw, hell with the mess, it is less frustrating.
>
> --
> Froz...
>
> The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

A house, 3 doors down from mine, had the entire family room wired with
those cheapo 18ga extension cords. They were held in place between the
block foundation and the 2x3 studs which were concrete nailed in
place. No insulation, no vapour barrier. The studs were then covered
with hardboard panelling, no drywall. I have built theatre sets
(flats) with more integrity.

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
>
> I have a theory that the internet is behind the pathetic trend toward
> helplessness. I wonder how many youngsters consider going to the
> library for a book to help them with a project they've never
> attempted. Does anyone even notice that there are shelves full of
> books as you walk into Home Depot or Lowe's?
>

BOOKS? In a LIBRARY? How quaint.

Mine has hand puppets, games, wall art, toys, videos, and a few other odds
and ends.

They do have a spinner rack containing historical romances ("bodice
rippers") with a sign: "Leave two, take two".

Libraries have abrogated their classical role as repositories of
information. Most should be burnt to the ground and the ashes scattered. Not
to worry, you won't be burning books!

To be even more topical, there are libraries in Berkeley that loans tools
(power saws, pressure washers, ladders, post hole diggers, etc.). Buncha
goddamn communists, you ask me.

On 8/06/10 9:36 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>
> Why, oh why, do people with no knowledge or experience of the building trades
> imagine that they are competent to do their own construction?

Been there done that. Previous owner left behind several mason jars
full of mixed screws, seemed odd. Then I started removing stuff that he
had built and need eight different bits to take them apart, what a pain
in the backside, can't even imagine wanting to build something that way.

Last two or three pieces of his handiwork that I have removed, recip
saw, hell with the mess, it is less frustrating.

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

In article <[email protected]>, Upscale <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sat, 07 Aug 2010 01:36:39 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
>wrote:
>>Why, oh why, do people with no knowledge or experience of the building trades
>>imagine that they are competent to do their own construction?
>
>Think I remember doing that job. It was my first day on the job, I was
>16, drunk and brand new to being an apprentice. The contractor for the
>job told me I had two hours to build the wall or I wouldn't get paid.

So it's *your* fault!

"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ol37o.59372

<stuff snipped>

> > Why, oh why, do people with no knowledge or experience of the building
> > trades
> > imagine that they are competent to do their own construction?
>
> Because Home Depot & Lowe's gave them the idea they were competent.

It's not just building. It's lots of thing. I laugh when I see Lowe's or
HD run ads that make some seriously complicated improvements look like any
Harriet Homeowner (remember Hechingers?) could do them with a hammer and a
screwdriver.

Way back when I did a lot of PC tech support for neighbors and friends I saw
some pretty savage things people had done trying to do their own upgrades.

Someone I know had read an article about easy it was to install your own
hard disk. This was the age of the ATA66 and 100 hard disk cable standard.
While Western Digital's big fold out instructions did make it look easy, it
really only covered about 80% of what you might find "under the hood." IOW,
it covered only the most basic installations.

By the time I got to the machine, I could find no earthly reason why it
would even boot up, but it did. After about 5 minutes. (She had put up
with that for five months before calling me!!) She had two *slaves* on one
channel, with the right DIP settings, and a master and a slave (CD as
master!) on the other channel, with the wrong DIP setting. Drive operations
between channels worked, drive operations on the same channel did not.

I should have known right then to walk away. SHE was getting mad at ME for
Western Digital not "being honest with her" about how easy it was. I told
her they were also forgetting to teach her all about cable types,
termination, DIP switch settings, Berg clips, Molex connectors, hard drive
capacity limitations, boot sectors, basic electrical theory, why using WD's
magic partitioning software was NOT a good idea, how her drive letters would
change because of how MicroSoft lays logical volumes, the difference between
physical drives and logical drives, the concept of Master and Slave drives
(NO RACE COMPLAINTS, PLEASE! <g>), how important it was to back up ALL her
drives before working on even a new one, how to check her work, etc.

In short, WD has failed to teach her how to do nearly everything that ten
years of experience makes it seem easy. There was never any admission she
was in over her head. This was someone else's fault. She did not know all
the things she needed to know and did not even KNOW how deficient her
knowledge was!

Putting up a wall must seem the same to some people. At one time, in real
life or on TV, they see some master carpenter put up a wall and it looks SO
easy. They know they can make all those same motions so off they go, never
even bothering to check out a Time-Life book from the library (old world) or
Google it on line (new world).

The most obvious giveaway of an amateur wall builder, IMHO, is studs NOT
placed on 16" centers, even though most measuring types have specific marks
for 16" centers. Next is lack of vertical plumbness. Third is that cluster
f_ck of nails that Doug describes in list item 5 that are placed to assure
the lowest strength joint possible.

I will have to admit, the first walls I put up at age 16 had their flaws,
but they WERE on 16" centers!

--
Bobby G.

Leon wrote:

>
> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I'm just finishing the demolition phase of a minor remodeling project in
>> my
>> basement, removing about 8 feet of wall installed by a previous
>> homeowner. This project teaches a lesson:
>>
>> How NOT to Build a Wall, in Ten Easy Steps
>>
>> 1. Install the studs at random intervals.
>> 2. Don't bother securing the bottom plate to the floor. If you cut a few
>> of
>> the studs just a bit long, and force-fit them, friction will keep the
>> bottom
>> plate in place.
>> 3. Don't bother nailing those studs in place. Friction, remember?
>> 4. Attach remaining studs to plates with six-penny box nails.
>> 5. Use eight at each end because they're so small.
>> 6. It's OK to use untreated lumber for the bottom plate. Water seepage
>> won't
>> harm fir, will it?
>> 7. Use regular sheetrock for the entire wall. Water seepage won't harm
>> that
>> either, will it?
>> 8. The doorpost doesn't need to be attached to the bottom plate. The
>> sheetrock
>> will keep it from moving.
>> 9. Nail the sheetrock every 3 inches along each vertical edge.
>> 10. That gives you enough nails that you don't need to nail it anywhere
>> else.
>
>
> What shocks me and is a common practice is to install interior door jams
> with no nails in the jam. Staples in the jam moldings hold it all in
> place. They don't need no stinkin shims.
Thats common practice on most new homes today. The rough openings are very
tight and they nail right to it then hold it together with the casement
trim. I still do it the old fashion way. shim shim shim...
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"

Man. 2010.1 Spring
KDE4.4
2.6.33.5-desktop-2mnb

On 08/07/2010 12:33 AM, DGDevin wrote:
> "Lee Michaels" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> I broke up some concrete in the back yard to expand the garage.
>> Instead of rebar in the concrete, I found parts of an old refrigerator
>> and bread trays from a bakery. Whatever was laying around got used.
>
> That one is a keeper, I just told SWMBO about that and she got a hoot
> out of it. That's up there with the folks who tried to get more paint
> out of spray cans by heating them in the oven.

FWIW I have found warming them to make them spray better (in cool
weather) I usually sit them in a pot of hot water though

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"DGDevin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> "Robert Green" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > In short, WD has failed to teach her how to do nearly everything that
ten
> > years of experience makes it seem easy. There was never any admission
she
> > was in over her head. This was someone else's fault. She did not know
> > all
> > the things she needed to know and did not even KNOW how deficient her
> > knowledge was!
>
> Well I've never had any training on how to fix or modify PCs, yet over the
. . .

For at least ten years, there WAS no formal training in PCs to speak of, but
if you read the instructions, the trade mags, BBS faqs and the like AND you
had a feel for such things, you could easily learn enough to get by better
than most. I've built about thirty machines and fixed God knows how many
more. I've ruined a lot of gear, too - but experience gained is
proportional to the amount of equipment destroyed (-:. I also got a lot of
stuff after the fact - like people blowing a power supply trying to install
an AGP video card in a machine without an AGP video card slot. Botched
memory and hard drive upgrades accounted for a lot of the DOA's that ended
up on my workbench.

> . . . years (my first PC had an 8088 processor) I've successfully
installed hard
> drives, audio and video cards, power supplies and so on. I think the
trick
> is in being able to honestly gauge what one can or cannot do, and in being
> able to follow instructions (and know when to call for help). Some people
> just don't seem set up for that sort of problem solving. I once ran a
> business where we made good money undoing the "repairs" and "customizing"
> such folks did....

If you can do a brake job, you can do a lot of PC repair. The devil is in
the details. But what do you do when you've got a new drive that just won't
boot no matter what? Or a new CD burner that keeps spitting out coasters
(back when blanks were $5 each!)? Or a modem that won't stay on line?
That's where skill, experience and good problem solving skills come into
play.

(Don't get me started on problem solving skills. We hired a lot of
"wannabees" in our IT department because management was unwilling to pay top
dollar for really good people. What they didn't realize was that by hiring
incompetents to service machines that engineers, accountants, lawyers and
others depended on to do THEIR work, net productivity plummeted. It was
really false economy.)

You can tell by watching which techies evaluate all the clues first and
which guys come in and do a "defrag" as the universal solution to all
problems without a single actual thought about what the problem is or how to
fix it. It's almost like Dell tech support, gleefully leading people to
restore from the system disks without mentioning it would wipe out all their
existing data.

> > Putting up a wall must seem the same to some people. At one time, in
real
> > life or on TV, they see some master carpenter put up a wall and it looks
> > SO
> > easy. They know they can make all those same motions so off they go,
> > never
> > even bothering to check out a Time-Life book from the library (old
world)
> > or
> > Google it on line (new world).
>
> I find watching someone who knows what he is doing to be way more
> educational than an instruction manual could possibly be (at least for
me).
> And if you're paying attention you notice things, like the carpenter is
> driving nails in sort of a criss-cross fashion and without being told why
it
> seems to make sense.

The person I am describing was so self-absorbed she would not notice in a
million years how a craftsman did their work. She moved out of a rooftop
condo at a LOSS at the height of the real estate boom because the roof
leaked in the rain. She would go slate blank whenever confronted with
something that was "too hard" like condo maintenance, computers, cars or
income taxes.

> I don't know if this building/fixing ability is
> something we're born with (or without) or if it can be learned, but
clearly
> a lot of otherwise functioning adults don't see to have it.

You can say that again. My sister couldn't survive in the modern world
without technical assistance from my BIL and my nephew. I think it's
genetic because as soon I turned thirteen, I was building, building,
building. Fortunately, I had some great carpenters and cabinet makers to
watch. That makes a big difference but some people could be watching
Michaelangelo creating a sculpture and not learn one thing about his
technique.

> But who knows,
> the same people who can't figure out how to hook up a hard drive or nail a
> stud in place probably have other talents--at least I hope so.

Let's hope so. I tend to find cluelessness in one area is often a good sign
of cluelessness in others. But I think in these cases it's more than that.
It's not knowing that you don't know what you're doing. That's a slightly
more dangerous sort of ignorance than garden-variety dumb.

--
Bobby G.

In article <[email protected]>,
DGDevin <[email protected]> wrote:
<...snipped...>
>
>........................................................... But who knows,
>the same people who can't figure out how to hook up a hard drive or nail a
>stud in place probably have other talents--at least I hope so.
>

Some of them can write very entertaining usenet posts.

--
When the game is over, the pawn and the king are returned to the same box.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I'm just finishing the demolition phase of a minor remodeling project in
>> my
>> basement, removing about 8 feet of wall installed by a previous
>> homeowner. This project teaches a lesson:
>>
>> How NOT to Build a Wall, in Ten Easy Steps
>>
>> 1. Install the studs at random intervals.
>> 2. Don't bother securing the bottom plate to the floor. If you cut a few
>> of
>> the studs just a bit long, and force-fit them, friction will keep the
>> bottom
>> plate in place.
>> 3. Don't bother nailing those studs in place. Friction, remember?
>> 4. Attach remaining studs to plates with six-penny box nails.
>> 5. Use eight at each end because they're so small.
>> 6. It's OK to use untreated lumber for the bottom plate. Water seepage
>> won't
>> harm fir, will it?
>> 7. Use regular sheetrock for the entire wall. Water seepage won't harm
>> that
>> either, will it?
>> 8. The doorpost doesn't need to be attached to the bottom plate. The
>> sheetrock
>> will keep it from moving.
>> 9. Nail the sheetrock every 3 inches along each vertical edge.
>> 10. That gives you enough nails that you don't need to nail it anywhere
>> else.
>>
>> And don't _even_ get me started on the electrical code violations I found
>> inside that wall...
>>
>> Why, oh why, do people with no knowledge or experience of the building
>> trades
>> imagine that they are competent to do their own construction?
>
> Because Home Depot & Lowe's gave them the idea they were competent.


I saw today that Home Depot has just come out with a Peel and Stick Ceramic
and Glass Tile. Now thats something for the ages. Right

--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"

Man. 2010.1 Spring
KDE4.4
2.6.33.5-desktop-2mnb

Doug Miller wrote:

> Why, oh why, do people with no knowledge or experience of the building trades
> imagine that they are competent to do their own construction?

I've seen people in the building trades do amazingly bad things, and
they apparently knew they were doing it. Your wall builder is just an
idiot. It doesn't take a whole lot of effort to learn the correct way
to build a wall, simple house wiring, basic plumbing and so on.

What I really detest is someone, like my kid, saying "I can't do that,
I don't know how or I never did that" My answer is always one of two
things, WTF, do you think I was born knowing how, or, damn, I never did
it either, I guess we're screwed...

I guess if you are born into a family that pays someone else to do
everything, do nothing but go to school all your life, have no friends
in the trades or that actually work with their hands, your on your own,
and a little initiative can get you in trouble.

--
Jack
News Flash: Government Motors (GM) fines their top competitor $16 Mil.
http://jbstein.com

On 8/7/2010 10:42 AM, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
> "Jack Stein"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>
>>> Why, oh why, do people with no knowledge or experience of the building
>>> trades imagine that they are competent to do their own construction?
>>
>> I've seen people in the building trades do amazingly bad things, and they
>> apparently knew they were doing it. Your wall builder is just an idiot.
>> It doesn't take a whole lot of effort to learn the correct way to build a
>> wall, simple house wiring, basic plumbing and so on.
>>
>> What I really detest is someone, like my kid, saying "I can't do that, I
>> don't know how or I never did that" My answer is always one of two
>> things, WTF, do you think I was born knowing how, or, damn, I never did it
>> either, I guess we're screwed...
>
>
> I have a theory that the internet is behind the pathetic trend toward
> helplessness. I wonder how many youngsters consider going to the library for
> a book to help them with a project they've never attempted. Does anyone even
> notice that there are shelves full of books as you walk into Home Depot or
> Lowe's?
>
> Reading a book shouldn't necessarily be that much different from viewing the
> same information on a web page, but for some reason, I think it is. Maybe
> all the animated ads are too much of a distraction from the important
> content. I don't know....

If you've got a good library then it's a good resource. But it doesn't
take much effort to exhaust most libraries. Searching my local
library's catalog on "table saw" gets "Collected Poems of Constantine
Cavafy", "Weeds, Season 4", "Under Town", "Boone: A Biography", and
"Verses [of Ogden Nash] from 1929 On".

"Carpentry" found a bunch of childrens' books, a few on trim and finish
carpentry, and four that might be decent--they've been out of print so
long that Amazon doesn't even have a picture of them so I can't tell for
sure. Their holdings on that topic are so meager that I'm tempted to
cart some of the books that I'm done with down and donate them.

In article <[email protected]>, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:

>To be even more topical, there are libraries in Berkeley that loans tools
>(power saws, pressure washers, ladders, post hole diggers, etc.).

Power tools are permitted in Berkeley?

Those symbols of the industrial military complex should be
banned immediately.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| [email protected] Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On 8/7/2010 4:12 PM, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
> "HeyBub"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
>>>
>>> I have a theory that the internet is behind the pathetic trend toward
>>> helplessness. I wonder how many youngsters consider going to the
>>> library for a book to help them with a project they've never
>>> attempted. Does anyone even notice that there are shelves full of
>>> books as you walk into Home Depot or Lowe's?
>>>
>>
>> BOOKS? In a LIBRARY? How quaint.
>>
>> Mine has hand puppets, games, wall art, toys, videos, and a few other odds
>> and ends.
>>
>> They do have a spinner rack containing historical romances ("bodice
>> rippers") with a sign: "Leave two, take two".
>>
>> Libraries have abrogated their classical role as repositories of
>> information. Most should be burnt to the ground and the ashes scattered.
>> Not to worry, you won't be burning books!
>>
>> To be even more topical, there are libraries in Berkeley that loans tools
>> (power saws, pressure washers, ladders, post hole diggers, etc.). Buncha
>> goddamn communists, you ask me.
>>
>
>
> If that's how things are where you live, it's because of YOU.

Uh, how is what the libraries contain "because of HIM"?

In most towns the library has limited shelf space and tosses anything
that doesn't move regularly. Are you saying that he should go regularly
check out carpentry books that cover material that he has long since
mastered just so the library will keep them?

On 8/08/10 9:56 AM, Harry K wrote:
> On Aug 6, 6:36 pm, [email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
>> I'm just finishing the demolition phase of a minor remodeling project in my
>> basement, removing about 8 feet of wall installed by a previous homeowner.
>> This project teaches a lesson:
>>
>> How NOT to Build a Wall, in Ten Easy Steps
>>
>> 1. Install the studs at random intervals.
>> 2. Don't bother securing the bottom plate to the floor. If you cut a few of
>> the studs just a bit long, and force-fit them, friction will keep the bottom
>> plate in place.
>> 3. Don't bother nailing those studs in place. Friction, remember?
>> 4. Attach remaining studs to plates with six-penny box nails.
>> 5. Use eight at each end because they're so small.
>> 6. It's OK to use untreated lumber for the bottom plate. Water seepage won't
>> harm fir, will it?
>> 7. Use regular sheetrock for the entire wall. Water seepage won't harm that
>> either, will it?
>> 8. The doorpost doesn't need to be attached to the bottom plate. The sheetrock
>> will keep it from moving.
>> 9. Nail the sheetrock every 3 inches along each vertical edge.
>> 10. That gives you enough nails that you don't need to nail it anywhere else.
>>
>> And don't _even_ get me started on the electrical code violations I found
>> inside that wall...
>>
>> Why, oh why, do people with no knowledge or experience of the building trades
>> imagine that they are competent to do their own construction?
>
> When I got around to changing the old kitchen into a bedroom after
> adding an addition, I found that the proud former owner had used
> scraps of sheetrock to do the walls. Pieces as small a 1' square!
> the price of mud he used probablywould have bought new sheetrock.
>
I don't even want to know how you hand a 1' square piece of drywall on
studs with a 16" centre. yikes.

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

In news:[email protected],
Doug Miller <[email protected]> typed:
> I'm just finishing the demolition phase of a minor
> remodeling project in my basement, removing about 8 feet of
> wall installed by a previous homeowner. This project
> teaches a lesson:
>
> How NOT to Build a Wall, in Ten Easy Steps
>
> 1. Install the studs at random intervals.
> 2. Don't bother securing the bottom plate to the floor. If
> you cut a few of the studs just a bit long, and force-fit
> them, friction will keep the bottom plate in place.
> 3. Don't bother nailing those studs in place. Friction,
> remember?
> 4. Attach remaining studs to plates with six-penny box
> nails.
> 5. Use eight at each end because they're so small.
> 6. It's OK to use untreated lumber for the bottom plate.
> Water seepage won't harm fir, will it?
> 7. Use regular sheetrock for the entire wall. Water seepage
> won't harm that either, will it?
> 8. The doorpost doesn't need to be attached to the bottom
> plate. The sheetrock will keep it from moving.
> 9. Nail the sheetrock every 3 inches along each vertical
> edge.
> 10. That gives you enough nails that you don't need to nail
> it anywhere else.
>
> And don't _even_ get me started on the electrical code
> violations I found inside that wall...
>
> Why, oh why, do people with no knowledge or experience of
> the building trades imagine that they are competent to do
> their own construction?

Not all do; some post here instead.

On Sat, 07 Aug 2010 17:02:58 -0400, "J. Clarke"
>In most towns the library has limited shelf space and tosses anything
>that doesn't move regularly. Are you saying that he should go regularly
>check out carpentry books that cover material that he has long since
>mastered just so the library will keep them?

Possibly, he's suggesting libraries will stock books on subjects that
people attending the library are looking for. If most go to the
Internet to do their research, libraries have less information to go
on when they stock their shelves.

But, I think libraries are doomed to obscurity. I believe most people
(those living on the North American continent) including those less
financially capable have their own access to the Internet in one way
or another.

On Sat, 07 Aug 2010 01:36:39 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:
>Why, oh why, do people with no knowledge or experience of the building trades
>imagine that they are competent to do their own construction?

Think I remember doing that job. It was my first day on the job, I was
16, drunk and brand new to being an apprentice. The contractor for the
job told me I had two hours to build the wall or I wouldn't get paid.

Shaun Eli wrote:

> Yeah, well, you should see the sheetrock taping job a presumably
> professional builder did in my closet. It's diagonal, not at a right
> angle to fit against where the wall and ceiling meet.
>
> The first time I used tape it wasn't perfect but it was a hundred
> times better.
>
> So it's not only amateurs...

Roger that. Here in Tucson, I've found that it almost always requires 2
tries for people to get anything right. When I do things myself, I may
sometimes have to re-do something, but I'm not claiming to be a professional
at that particular task.


--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm just finishing the demolition phase of a minor remodeling project in
> my
> basement, removing about 8 feet of wall installed by a previous homeowner.
> This project teaches a lesson:
>
> How NOT to Build a Wall, in Ten Easy Steps
>
> 1. Install the studs at random intervals.
> 2. Don't bother securing the bottom plate to the floor. If you cut a few
> of
> the studs just a bit long, and force-fit them, friction will keep the
> bottom
> plate in place.
> 3. Don't bother nailing those studs in place. Friction, remember?
> 4. Attach remaining studs to plates with six-penny box nails.
> 5. Use eight at each end because they're so small.
> 6. It's OK to use untreated lumber for the bottom plate. Water seepage
> won't
> harm fir, will it?
> 7. Use regular sheetrock for the entire wall. Water seepage won't harm
> that
> either, will it?
> 8. The doorpost doesn't need to be attached to the bottom plate. The
> sheetrock
> will keep it from moving.
> 9. Nail the sheetrock every 3 inches along each vertical edge.
> 10. That gives you enough nails that you don't need to nail it anywhere
> else.
>
> And don't _even_ get me started on the electrical code violations I found
> inside that wall...
>
> Why, oh why, do people with no knowledge or experience of the building
> trades
> imagine that they are competent to do their own construction?

Because Home Depot & Lowe's gave them the idea they were competent.

In article <[email protected]>,
FrozenNorth <[email protected]> wrote:

> I don't even want to know how you hand a 1' square piece of drywall on
> studs with a 16" centre. yikes.

Why wouldn't you want to know? You could be lost in a post-apocalyptic
wasteland some day, with your survival dependent on realizing that by
rotating a 12" square 45 degrees you can span the better part of 17".

"Jack Stein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Doug Miller wrote:
>
>> Why, oh why, do people with no knowledge or experience of the building
>> trades imagine that they are competent to do their own construction?
>
> I've seen people in the building trades do amazingly bad things, and they
> apparently knew they were doing it. Your wall builder is just an idiot.
> It doesn't take a whole lot of effort to learn the correct way to build a
> wall, simple house wiring, basic plumbing and so on.
>
> What I really detest is someone, like my kid, saying "I can't do that, I
> don't know how or I never did that" My answer is always one of two
> things, WTF, do you think I was born knowing how, or, damn, I never did it
> either, I guess we're screwed...


I have a theory that the internet is behind the pathetic trend toward
helplessness. I wonder how many youngsters consider going to the library for
a book to help them with a project they've never attempted. Does anyone even
notice that there are shelves full of books as you walk into Home Depot or
Lowe's?

Reading a book shouldn't necessarily be that much different from viewing the
same information on a web page, but for some reason, I think it is. Maybe
all the animated ads are too much of a distraction from the important
content. I don't know....

On Sat, 07 Aug 2010 01:36:39 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:

>I'm just finishing the demolition phase of a minor remodeling project in my
>basement, removing about 8 feet of wall installed by a previous homeowner.
>This project teaches a lesson:
>
>How NOT to Build a Wall, in Ten Easy Steps
>
>1. Install the studs at random intervals.
>2. Don't bother securing the bottom plate to the floor. If you cut a few of
>the studs just a bit long, and force-fit them, friction will keep the bottom
>plate in place.
>3. Don't bother nailing those studs in place. Friction, remember?
>4. Attach remaining studs to plates with six-penny box nails.
>5. Use eight at each end because they're so small.
>6. It's OK to use untreated lumber for the bottom plate. Water seepage won't
>harm fir, will it?
>7. Use regular sheetrock for the entire wall. Water seepage won't harm that
>either, will it?
>8. The doorpost doesn't need to be attached to the bottom plate. The sheetrock
>will keep it from moving.
>9. Nail the sheetrock every 3 inches along each vertical edge.
>10. That gives you enough nails that you don't need to nail it anywhere else.
>
>And don't _even_ get me started on the electrical code violations I found
>inside that wall...
>
>Why, oh why, do people with no knowledge or experience of the building trades
>imagine that they are competent to do their own construction?


The main thing I did was commercial exterior electrical jobs.
Surprised how many repair jobs came from cars hitting concrete pole
bases that sheared off. No one told the electrical contractor to use
rebar. My favorite is the emergency call to a grocery store where the
fork lift is almost 20' in the air keeping the pole from falling over.
Not surprising we found the pvc was only 6" under the asphalt.

Mike M

On Sat, 07 Aug 2010 01:36:39 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:

>I'm just finishing the demolition phase of a minor remodeling project in my
>basement, removing about 8 feet of wall installed by a previous homeowner.
>This project teaches a lesson:
>
>How NOT to Build a Wall, in Ten Easy Steps
>
>1. Install the studs at random intervals.
>2. Don't bother securing the bottom plate to the floor. If you cut a few of
>the studs just a bit long, and force-fit them, friction will keep the bottom
>plate in place.
>3. Don't bother nailing those studs in place. Friction, remember?
>4. Attach remaining studs to plates with six-penny box nails.
>5. Use eight at each end because they're so small.
>6. It's OK to use untreated lumber for the bottom plate. Water seepage won't
>harm fir, will it?
>7. Use regular sheetrock for the entire wall. Water seepage won't harm that
>either, will it?
>8. The doorpost doesn't need to be attached to the bottom plate. The sheetrock
>will keep it from moving.
>9. Nail the sheetrock every 3 inches along each vertical edge.
>10. That gives you enough nails that you don't need to nail it anywhere else.
>
>And don't _even_ get me started on the electrical code violations I found
>inside that wall...
>
>Why, oh why, do people with no knowledge or experience of the building trades
>imagine that they are competent to do their own construction?

Perhaps because they know someone who is in the building trades and
couldn't find his butt with 4 hands, a mirror, and a flashlight.

We lived in one house where the back wall of the carport was almost 2
inches out of plumb - I can only wonder how work done by
"professionals" who didn't know wha sqaure, plumb, and level were got
past the city building inspector.

I knew the wall wasn't plumb, but discovered exactly how bad it was
when I enclosed the carport and started fo finish the walls. I ripped
2x4's diagonally to make the nailing surface vertical. My work was
permitted and inspected; the inspector even asked whether I was an
electrician by trade (no, but I learned the right way to do wiring - I
was sleeping in that house....)

John

aemeijers <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Robert Green wrote:
> (snip)
>> Let's hope so. I tend to find cluelessness in one area is often a good
>> sign
>> of cluelessness in others. But I think in these cases it's more than
>> that.
>> It's not knowing that you don't know what you're doing. That's a
>> slightly
>> more dangerous sort of ignorance than garden-variety dumb.
>>
> THAT is a critical ability to have, in life in general, not just home
> repair, PC repair, or whatever. There is no sin in not knowing how to do
> something, and I'll go out of my way to help people like that when they
> ask, or honestly tell them it is outside MY skill set. The ones who try to
> BS or fake their way through it, not so much.
>
> I ain't proud- for stuff I don't know how to do, I'll seek out someone
> who does, even when I have to pay for it. And with the passing years, my
> understanding of the holes in my expertise has become more detailed.

Amen, Brudda! It's right along with the day I realized my father _was_
pretty damned smart because he knew not only when to ask for help (rather
than simply forging ahead) but the questions to ask an expert so he could do
it the next time. Now, he knew how to do many things, and did with a level
of craftmanship I have yet to attain (he really was the DeVinci of Clan
Ranger), but that was the lesson he stressed each time and was finally able
to pass on. Know your limits; do it right the first time. (A job half-done
is twice done.)

Go ahead and pass me some of that ammo... I hear the Hordes a-comin' over
the burm.

The Ranger