Wire size for 250' distance to garage?

In article <[email protected]>, "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Wouldn't he be better of installing a 100 amp box instead of a 60 amp
>service, or even a 150 amp for possible growth later on?

No, probably not. We're talking about a workshop here, not an entire house,
after all. What in the world is he going to use 150A for?

The heaviest load that's likely to ever be seen in a one-person garage shop
would look something like this:
3HP table saw (roughly 3kVA max)
5HP air compressor (roughly 5kVA max)
2HP dust collector (roughly 2kVA max)
window air conditioner (say 15 or 16A at 120V, total about 2kVA max)
maybe a kilowatt of lighting at 120V (1kVA)
perhaps even a small refrigerator (1kVA)

Never mind any of the other tools he might have -- the table saw is the
heaviest load, and the others won't be in use at the same time as the table
saw. Total of the loads in simultaneous use is 14kVA = 58A @ 240V.

And that's assuming that he's ripping 12/4 sugar maple with all the lights on
and the dust collector running, at the same time that the air compressor *and*
the compressors in the window A/C *and* the refrigerator have both cycled on.
Possible, I guess, but not too likely IMHO. *Far* more likely load is in the
area of 30 to 40 amps at 240V most of the time.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Jul 18, 5:08 pm, Frank Boettcher <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:44:32 -0500, "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >"Chris Friesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> Doug Miller wrote:
>
> >>> The heaviest load that's likely to ever be seen in a one-person garage
> >>> shop would look something like this:
> >>> 3HP table saw (roughly 3kVA max)
> >>> 5HP air compressor (roughly 5kVA max)
> >>> 2HP dust collector (roughly 2kVA max)
>
> >> A high powered cyclone could have up to 5HP. That would bump up the max
> >> requirements a bit.
>
> >> Relatively few people have that level of dust collection though.
>
> >> Chris
>
> >In the winter time he may have an electric heating system installed. -- Who
> >knows what his plans in the future will be? That's what I suggested the 100
> >amp for. What's it going to cost him, perhaps 10 or 12 bucks more than a
> >60. He may even put a mercury light outside for security purposes.
>
> ??? difference between 450' of #6 with 150' of #10 ground, and 450' of
> #3 with #8 ground is 10 or 12 bucks? where do you shop for your
> electrical? :~)
>
> The panel is imaterial. Will probably be rated 100 or 125 amps
> because it will be more common and cost less and can still be used as
> a 60 amp. It's the wire that's big bucks.
>
> Frank



I wouldn't use a 125 amp box with a line that feeds 60A - it's asking
for trouble, and is probably
not code. that said, you could get away with it is you were REAL sure
of the power being used.

shelly

Doug Miller wrote:

> The heaviest load that's likely to ever be seen in a one-person garage shop
> would look something like this:
> 3HP table saw (roughly 3kVA max)
> 5HP air compressor (roughly 5kVA max)
> 2HP dust collector (roughly 2kVA max)

A high powered cyclone could have up to 5HP. That would bump up the max
requirements a bit.

Relatively few people have that level of dust collection though.

Chris

Dave wrote:

> In the winter time he may have an electric heating system installed. -- Who
> knows what his plans in the future will be? That's what I suggested the 100
> amp for. What's it going to cost him, perhaps 10 or 12 bucks more than a
> 60. He may even put a mercury light outside for security purposes.

I suspect that over 250' the difference between #4 and #2 is going to be
more than $10. Just in raw materials, #2 has 50% more copper than #4.

Chris

In article <[email protected]>, Lew Hodgett <[email protected]> wrote:
>Frank Boettcher wrote:
>
>> Lew, I think you missed the point. This is a conversation about
>> whether I install a properly sized 60 amp service to provide for what
>> will normally be far less than 60 amp demand, or whether I bump up to
>> 100 amp or 150 amp service to provide for what will normally be far
>> less than 60 amp demand. Whether copper or aluminum, the overkill
>> does not make sense.
>
>2P-60AQ service will handle whatever a one man band can throw at it,
>unless of course you have a kiln or ceramic oven you are not telling
>us about<G>.

Or electric resistance heat, as one fellow pointed out.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 22:47:13 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Frank Boettcher <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I'm confused here. All that I've found is rated at 55 amps. It seems
>>that regardless of the insulation rating on the individual conducters
>>in the cable that might take it to 75 or 90C, the rating reverts back
>>to 60C which is 55 amps for any #6 "romex" cable. Not sure what the
>>logic is there or even if I understand it fully.
>
>Since there isn't any such thing as a 55A breaker, Code permits the conductors
>to be breakered at 60A. [2005 NEC, Articles 240.4 and 240.6, paraphrased]


Thanks. I didn't know that. That is the way I will go. Least cost
and, since I am the labor, least amount of that in the attic.

Frank

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> BTW, forgot to ask.
>
> Any chance you have access to the termination equipment for aluminum
> conductors (rent, barter, whatever)?
>
> If so, #4 AWG aluminum should be very attractive.
>
> Lew

I have 30 years experience operating a small electrical contracting
business. In that time, I've only observed a very few circuit breaker
panels and breakers that are not designed for direct connection to aliminum
conductors.

What kind of termination equipment, other than anti-oxidation paste, do you
refer?

Gary Kasten
Kasten Electric
St. Peters, MO

Frank Boettcher wrote:

> Lew, I think you missed the point. This is a conversation about
> whether I install a properly sized 60 amp service to provide for what
> will normally be far less than 60 amp demand, or whether I bump up to
> 100 amp or 150 amp service to provide for what will normally be far
> less than 60 amp demand. Whether copper or aluminum, the overkill
> does not make sense.


BTW, forgot to ask.

Any chance you have access to the termination equipment for aluminum
conductors (rent, barter, whatever)?

If so, #4 AWG aluminum should be very attractive.

Lew

In article <[email protected]>, "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>In the winter time he may have an electric heating system installed. -- Who
>knows what his plans in the future will be? That's what I suggested the 100
>amp for. What's it going to cost him, perhaps 10 or 12 bucks more than a
>60. He may even put a mercury light outside for security purposes.

Good point -- I hadn't considered the possibility of resistance heating. If he
puts that in, then, yes, he definitedly needs more than 60A -- and he may
*also* need to upgrade the service to his house.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 18:11:33 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Frank Boettcher <[email protected]> wrote:
>>On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:46:37 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, sailor
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Sounds like a good plan. 60A service should be more than adequate, unless
>>>you're planning on a LOT of high-load tools running at once. Normally, a 60A
>>>feeder would require a minimum wire size of 6AWG copper, but since it's 250
>>>feet away from your panel, you'll want to bump that up to 4AWG.
>>>
>>More useful information that is relevant to my current needs.
>>
>>On a 150' total point to point run length would you say 6AWG would be
>>ok.? Local utility not known for running low voltage, and my 120
>>circuits currently run the same distance to the back wall of the shop
>>(where the new panel will be) are measuring about 117-117.5V (seems
>>like they run a little higher in the winter).
>
>Yes, you're OK with 6AWG -- the voltage drop at 60A works out at about 3.6%,
>and anything under 5% is generally considered acceptable. At the OP's distance
>of 250' one way, though, he sees a voltage drop of 6% with 6AWG, and he needs
>4AWG to get his voltage drop down to 3.8%. It wouldn't hurt for him to go to
>3AWG, even, but it's probably not necessary.
>>
>>>Pull individual conductors through PVC conduit. (Make sure you use actual PVC
>>>electrical conduit -- "rigid non-metallic conduit" -- not PVC water pipe.)
>>>Minimum burial depth is 18 inches, as long as you're just going under your
>>>lawn or a residential driveway. If there's a street or alley in the way, 24
>>>inches.
>>>
>>>You'll need four type THWN conductors: two 4AWG hots (one black, one red is
>>>typical), one 4AWG neutral (white or gray), and one 8AWG minimum ground (green
>>>or bare). Code permits the grounding conductor to be downsized as far as 10AWG
>>>on a 60A circuit, but, again, due to the length of the circuit, bump it up at
>>>least one size.
>>>
>>>Minimum conduit size according to Code is 1". Don't even think about it. Get
>>>*at*least* 1-1/2" if you want to be able to pull the wires easily. It will be
>>>easier to pull the wires one conduit section at a time as you lay the conduit,
>>>rather than trying to pull the whole 250' run at once. Pull boxes every 50'
>>>would be a good idea, too.
>>
>>Would you upsize to 1-1/2 conduit with 3-6AWG and a 10 ground?
>
>No, but I'd go 1-1/4. Code minimum is 3/4 (!). My rule of thumb is to bump two
>trade sizes above the minimum: makes it *much* easier to pull the wires, and
>provides space for expansion as well, if you decide to upsize the circuit
>later, or add a few more.
>>
>>My run is through attic space for the most part. No underground.
>
>In that case, I'd just use 6-3WG NM ("Romex") cable, and not bother with the
>conduit. If the attic is "accessible" (by stairs or permanent ladder), you'll
>need to install guard strips next to the cable for protection from damage
>wherever it's running across the top of the joists.

I'm confused here. All that I've found is rated at 55 amps. It seems
that regardless of the insulation rating on the individual conducters
in the cable that might take it to 75 or 90C, the rating reverts back
to 60C which is 55 amps for any #6 "romex" cable. Not sure what the
logic is there or even if I understand it fully.
>
>>At the point where the run will go from the house to the carport/shop
>>complex, there is approximately 1-1/2' of distance. Considering
>>weatherproof flexible for this transition. This to avoid tearing out
>>the ceiling in a breeze way to run in that ceiling. Any flaws in this
>>plan?
>
>No, not really, except that you might have a couple of better alternatives.
>
>Any chance you could fish an NM cable through that breezeway ceiling? Instead
>of using a fish tape, try Greenlee "Fish Stix" -- four-foot lengths of
>fiberglass rod with threaded connections at the ends, and various hooking and
>grabbing tools for catching hold of cables and wires. Great product. Wish I'd
>bought a set of those about twenty years ago. (They sell them at Lowe's, if
>you're interested -- around forty bucks, IIRC -- and I think I've seen
>something similar at HD, too.)
>
Not much chance, I think. Breezeway is flat roof or actually a one
way minor slope with roof sheathing on top and ceiling sheathing below
the rafters. There is a 12/2 wg in there that was the original light
cable for the carport, however, It would be too much to expect to have
those holes though the rafters be large enough for the larger cable.
Got a right angle turn in there also.

>If not, consider that type NMC cable is approved for use in damp locations,
>and thus you could do the entire run with that. "Examples of such locations
>include partially protected locations under canopies, marquees, ROOFED OPEN
>PORCHES, and like locations..." [2005 NEC, Article 100, emphasis added]
>
>>Thanks for all advice
>
>No prob.

In article <[email protected]>, Frank Boettcher <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 22:47:13 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <[email protected]>, Frank Boettcher
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>I'm confused here. All that I've found is rated at 55 amps. It seems
>>>that regardless of the insulation rating on the individual conducters
>>>in the cable that might take it to 75 or 90C, the rating reverts back
>>>to 60C which is 55 amps for any #6 "romex" cable. Not sure what the
>>>logic is there or even if I understand it fully.
>>
>>Since there isn't any such thing as a 55A breaker, Code permits the conductors
>>to be breakered at 60A. [2005 NEC, Articles 240.4 and 240.6, paraphrased]
>
>Thanks. I didn't know that. That is the way I will go. Least cost
>and, since I am the labor, least amount of that in the attic.

You're welcome. General rule, any time there isn't a standard breaker
corresponding to the rated ampacity of the wire or cable you're using, you're
permitted to go up to the next standard breaker. The entire NEC is online here
at the URL below; consult Article 240.4(B) if you want all the gory details.
Article 240.6(A) lists the standard ratings.
http://nfpa-acs-01.gvpi.net:8080/rrserver/browser?title=/NFPASTD/7005SB

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Properly" tightening an aluminum lug has got to be a cute trick.
>
> A little too much "properly", and you have a stripped lug.
>
> Lew

Yeah... Practice and PATIENCE are required. A good slug of anti-ox on the
conductors and a little bit of electrical silicone on the lug's threads and
snug it down. Wait 4,5,6 minutes while you pick up your tools, check other
connections, BS with the customer,,,, whatever.

Snug it again.... Wait some more. Check it again. Usually the third time
will give you very little (or no) rotation. After that... LEAVE IT ALONE!!!

Obviously, a 200 amp 4/0 aluminum connector takes more effort than a #2
aluminum. But the "third times the charm" technique works for most of the
"common" sizes. Judging just how much rotational force takes either a LOT
of practice or a torque wrench... (BOTH are good to have!) ;-)

GWK

[email protected] wrote:

> I wouldn't use a 125 amp box with a line that feeds 60A - it's asking
> for trouble, and is probably
> not code.


I'm confused.

What is the problem?

It's done every day and does not violate code.

lew

"Chris Friesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Doug Miller wrote:
>
>> The heaviest load that's likely to ever be seen in a one-person garage
>> shop would look something like this:
>> 3HP table saw (roughly 3kVA max)
>> 5HP air compressor (roughly 5kVA max)
>> 2HP dust collector (roughly 2kVA max)
>
> A high powered cyclone could have up to 5HP. That would bump up the max
> requirements a bit.
>
> Relatively few people have that level of dust collection though.
>
> Chris

In the winter time he may have an electric heating system installed. -- Who
knows what his plans in the future will be? That's what I suggested the 100
amp for. What's it going to cost him, perhaps 10 or 12 bucks more than a
60. He may even put a mercury light outside for security purposes.

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Frank Boettcher
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:46:37 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, sailor
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Sounds like a good plan. 60A service should be more than adequate, unless
>>>you're planning on a LOT of high-load tools running at once. Normally, a
>>>60A
>>>feeder would require a minimum wire size of 6AWG copper, but since it's
>>>250
>>>feet away from your panel, you'll want to bump that up to 4AWG.
>>>
>>More useful information that is relevant to my current needs.
>>
>>On a 150' total point to point run length would you say 6AWG would be
>>ok.? Local utility not known for running low voltage, and my 120
>>circuits currently run the same distance to the back wall of the shop
>>(where the new panel will be) are measuring about 117-117.5V (seems
>>like they run a little higher in the winter).
>
> Yes, you're OK with 6AWG -- the voltage drop at 60A works out at about
> 3.6%,
> and anything under 5% is generally considered acceptable. At the OP's
> distance
> of 250' one way, though, he sees a voltage drop of 6% with 6AWG, and he
> needs
> 4AWG to get his voltage drop down to 3.8%. It wouldn't hurt for him to go
> to
> 3AWG, even, but it's probably not necessary.
>>
>>>Pull individual conductors through PVC conduit. (Make sure you use actual
>>>PVC
>>>electrical conduit -- "rigid non-metallic conduit" -- not PVC water
>>>pipe.)
>>>Minimum burial depth is 18 inches, as long as you're just going under
>>>your
>>>lawn or a residential driveway. If there's a street or alley in the way,
>>>24
>>>inches.
>>>
>>>You'll need four type THWN conductors: two 4AWG hots (one black, one red
>>>is
>>>typical), one 4AWG neutral (white or gray), and one 8AWG minimum ground
>>>(green
>>>or bare). Code permits the grounding conductor to be downsized as far as
>>>10AWG
>>>on a 60A circuit, but, again, due to the length of the circuit, bump it
>>>up at
>>>least one size.
>>>
>>>Minimum conduit size according to Code is 1". Don't even think about it.
>>>Get
>>>*at*least* 1-1/2" if you want to be able to pull the wires easily. It
>>>will be
>>>easier to pull the wires one conduit section at a time as you lay the
>>>conduit,
>>>rather than trying to pull the whole 250' run at once. Pull boxes every
>>>50'
>>>would be a good idea, too.
>>
>>Would you upsize to 1-1/2 conduit with 3-6AWG and a 10 ground?
>
> No, but I'd go 1-1/4. Code minimum is 3/4 (!). My rule of thumb is to bump
> two
> trade sizes above the minimum: makes it *much* easier to pull the wires,
> and
> provides space for expansion as well, if you decide to upsize the circuit
> later, or add a few more.
>>
>>My run is through attic space for the most part. No underground.
>
> In that case, I'd just use 6-3WG NM ("Romex") cable, and not bother with
> the
> conduit. If the attic is "accessible" (by stairs or permanent ladder),
> you'll
> need to install guard strips next to the cable for protection from damage
> wherever it's running across the top of the joists.
>
>>At the point where the run will go from the house to the carport/shop
>>complex, there is approximately 1-1/2' of distance. Considering
>>weatherproof flexible for this transition. This to avoid tearing out
>>the ceiling in a breeze way to run in that ceiling. Any flaws in this
>>plan?
>
> No, not really, except that you might have a couple of better
> alternatives.
>
> Any chance you could fish an NM cable through that breezeway ceiling?
> Instead
> of using a fish tape, try Greenlee "Fish Stix" -- four-foot lengths of
> fiberglass rod with threaded connections at the ends, and various hooking
> and
> grabbing tools for catching hold of cables and wires. Great product. Wish
> I'd
> bought a set of those about twenty years ago. (They sell them at Lowe's,
> if
> you're interested -- around forty bucks, IIRC -- and I think I've seen
> something similar at HD, too.)
>
> If not, consider that type NMC cable is approved for use in damp
> locations,
> and thus you could do the entire run with that. "Examples of such
> locations
> include partially protected locations under canopies, marquees, ROOFED
> OPEN
> PORCHES, and like locations..." [2005 NEC, Article 100, emphasis added]
>
>>Thanks for all advice
>
> No prob.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Wouldn't he be better of installing a 100 amp box instead of a 60 amp
service, or even a 150 amp for possible growth later on?

In article <[email protected]>, Frank Boettcher <[email protected]> wrote:

>I'm confused here. All that I've found is rated at 55 amps. It seems
>that regardless of the insulation rating on the individual conducters
>in the cable that might take it to 75 or 90C, the rating reverts back
>to 60C which is 55 amps for any #6 "romex" cable. Not sure what the
>logic is there or even if I understand it fully.

Since there isn't any such thing as a 55A breaker, Code permits the conductors
to be breakered at 60A. [2005 NEC, Articles 240.4 and 240.6, paraphrased]

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

9.9 Fingers wrote:

>
> I have 30 years experience operating a small electrical contracting
> business. In that time, I've only observed a very few circuit breaker
> panels and breakers that are not designed for direct connection to
aliminum
> conductors.
>
> What kind of termination equipment, other than anti-oxidation
paste, do you
> refer?

I'm dating myself, but way back when aluminum conductors first started
appearing, it required a crimp connector to trap the sheep dip(Al-Nox,
etc).

Appears thing have changed in Kansas City, as the old song goes.

How does a direct connect to a c'bkr lug trap the sheep dip and
prevent oxidation?

Lew

9.9 Fingers wrote:

> The lugs, (part of the breaker where the wire is connected) are
*made of
> aluminum*. Since there's no dissimilar metal problem to fight,
coating the
> end of the aluminum with "mother-in-law juice", and then *properly*
> tightening down the screw on the breaker does a fine job of keeping
the
> connection clear of oxidation.

"Properly" tightening an aluminum lug has got to be a cute trick.

A little too much "properly", and you have a stripped lug.

Lew

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

>I wouldn't use a 125 amp box with a line that feeds 60A - it's asking
>for trouble, and is probably
>not code. that said, you could get away with it is you were REAL sure
>of the power being used.

Asking for trouble in what way? Why would it not meet Code? There's no
violation here -- I suppose you're concerned that the 125A panel could pull
much more current than the feeder is rated for, but that can't happen if the
feeder is properly installed with a 60A double-pole breaker at its source. If
the feeder is simply taken off the main lugs, with no overcurrent protection
at the source, then there certainly *is* both a Code violation and a serious
hazard -- but the violation and hazard consist in having feeder conductors
with no overcurrent protection, and are unrelated to the rating of the
equipment at the other end of the feeder.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

9.9 Fingers wrote:

>
> Yeah... Practice and PATIENCE are required. A good slug of anti-ox
on the
> conductors and a little bit of electrical silicone on the lug's
threads and
> snug it down. Wait 4,5,6 minutes while you pick up your tools,
check other
> connections, BS with the customer,,,, whatever.
>
> Snug it again.... Wait some more. Check it again. Usually the
third time
> will give you very little (or no) rotation. After that... LEAVE IT
ALONE!!!
>
> Obviously, a 200 amp 4/0 aluminum connector takes more effort than
a #2
> aluminum. But the "third times the charm" technique works for most
of the
> "common" sizes. Judging just how much rotational force takes
either a LOT
> of practice or a torque wrench... (BOTH are good to have!) ;-)


The classic description of how to overcome the cold flow problem with
aluminum conductors.

Now if you want to have some fun, do some work with low voltage marine
DC wiring complete with terminals, sheep dip, shrink tubing and
special crimp tools.


Lew

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:46:37 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, sailor <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Sounds like a good plan. 60A service should be more than adequate, unless
>you're planning on a LOT of high-load tools running at once. Normally, a 60A
>feeder would require a minimum wire size of 6AWG copper, but since it's 250
>feet away from your panel, you'll want to bump that up to 4AWG.
>
More useful information that is relevant to my current needs.

On a 150' total point to point run length would you say 6AWG would be
ok.? Local utility not known for running low voltage, and my 120
circuits currently run the same distance to the back wall of the shop
(where the new panel will be) are measuring about 117-117.5V (seems
like they run a little higher in the winter).


>Pull individual conductors through PVC conduit. (Make sure you use actual PVC
>electrical conduit -- "rigid non-metallic conduit" -- not PVC water pipe.)
>Minimum burial depth is 18 inches, as long as you're just going under your
>lawn or a residential driveway. If there's a street or alley in the way, 24
>inches.
>
>You'll need four type THWN conductors: two 4AWG hots (one black, one red is
>typical), one 4AWG neutral (white or gray), and one 8AWG minimum ground (green
>or bare). Code permits the grounding conductor to be downsized as far as 10AWG
>on a 60A circuit, but, again, due to the length of the circuit, bump it up at
>least one size.
>
>Minimum conduit size according to Code is 1". Don't even think about it. Get
>*at*least* 1-1/2" if you want to be able to pull the wires easily. It will be
>easier to pull the wires one conduit section at a time as you lay the conduit,
>rather than trying to pull the whole 250' run at once. Pull boxes every 50'
>would be a good idea, too.

Would you upsize to 1-1/2 conduit with 3-6AWG and a 10 ground?

My run is through attic space for the most part. No underground. At
the point where the run will go from the house to the carport/shop
complex, there is approximately 1-1/2' of distance. Considering
weatherproof flexible for this transition. This to avoid tearing out
the ceiling in a breeze way to run in that ceiling. Any flaws in this
plan?


Thanks for all advice

Frank
>
>In the main panel, connect the two hot wires (red & black) to the poles of a
>60A double-pole breaker, the neutral (white) to the neutral bus bar, and the
>ground (green or bare) to the ground bus bar.
>
>In your panel at the garage, make sure that the neutral and ground bus bars
>are **NOT** connected to each other. They're required to be connected in the
>main panel, and required to be separate everywhere else. Connect the two hot
>conductors to the lugs on the main breaker, the neutral to the neutral bus
>bar (that's the one that's insulated from the panel), and the ground to the
>ground bus bar (that's the one that's *not* insulated from the panel).

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:UiAni.8314$
>
> I'm dating myself, but way back when aluminum conductors first started
> appearing, it required a crimp connector to trap the sheep dip(Al-Nox,
> etc).
>
> Appears thing have changed in Kansas City, as the old song goes.
>
> How does a direct connect to a c'bkr lug trap the sheep dip and prevent
> oxidation?
>
> Lew

Lew,

The lugs, (part of the breaker where the wire is connected) are *made of
aluminum*. Since there's no dissimilar metal problem to fight, coating the
end of the aluminum with "mother-in-law juice", and then *properly*
tightening down the screw on the breaker does a fine job of keeping the
connection clear of oxidation.

The parts of the conductor that aren't trapped under the breaker screw or
trapped against the back and sides of the lug aren't actually transferring
current. Apparently, enough of the anti-ox is trapped and coats the wire
and the lug at the points where contact is made to prevent problems.

Frequently, we remove metersockets and circuit panels that have been
connected to aluminum since the mid 1960's; and as long as the connections
were installed properly, the amount of failed connections are very few.
This is in Missouri, where we have 4 seasons, at least one without much
humidity. Can't say if this would hold true for the more humid parts of the
US.

Gary Kasten
Kasten Electric
St. Peters, MO

Frank Boettcher wrote:

> And copper is expensive.

And so are line losses.

They are the hidden penalty you pay forever because you want to save a
few $ at installation time.

Many of my contractor customers would size for minimum line drop using
copper, then upgrade a size and use aluminum for feeders.

Terminate aluminum properly and you have no problems.

Don't terminate aluminum properly and you have BIG problems.

Lew

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:44:32 -0500, "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Chris Friesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>
>>> The heaviest load that's likely to ever be seen in a one-person garage
>>> shop would look something like this:
>>> 3HP table saw (roughly 3kVA max)
>>> 5HP air compressor (roughly 5kVA max)
>>> 2HP dust collector (roughly 2kVA max)
>>
>> A high powered cyclone could have up to 5HP. That would bump up the max
>> requirements a bit.
>>
>> Relatively few people have that level of dust collection though.
>>
>> Chris
>
>In the winter time he may have an electric heating system installed. -- Who
>knows what his plans in the future will be? That's what I suggested the 100
>amp for. What's it going to cost him, perhaps 10 or 12 bucks more than a
>60. He may even put a mercury light outside for security purposes.
>
??? difference between 450' of #6 with 150' of #10 ground, and 450' of
#3 with #8 ground is 10 or 12 bucks? where do you shop for your
electrical? :~)

The panel is imaterial. Will probably be rated 100 or 125 amps
because it will be more common and cost less and can still be used as
a 60 amp. It's the wire that's big bucks.

Frank

Frank Boettcher wrote:

> Lew, I think you missed the point. This is a conversation about
> whether I install a properly sized 60 amp service to provide for what
> will normally be far less than 60 amp demand, or whether I bump up to
> 100 amp or 150 amp service to provide for what will normally be far
> less than 60 amp demand. Whether copper or aluminum, the overkill
> does not make sense.

2P-60AQ service will handle whatever a one man band can throw at it,
unless of course you have a kiln or ceramic oven you are not telling
us about<G>.


Lew

In article <[email protected]>, Frank Boettcher <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:46:37 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <[email protected]>, sailor
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>Sounds like a good plan. 60A service should be more than adequate, unless
>>you're planning on a LOT of high-load tools running at once. Normally, a 60A
>>feeder would require a minimum wire size of 6AWG copper, but since it's 250
>>feet away from your panel, you'll want to bump that up to 4AWG.
>>
>More useful information that is relevant to my current needs.
>
>On a 150' total point to point run length would you say 6AWG would be
>ok.? Local utility not known for running low voltage, and my 120
>circuits currently run the same distance to the back wall of the shop
>(where the new panel will be) are measuring about 117-117.5V (seems
>like they run a little higher in the winter).

Yes, you're OK with 6AWG -- the voltage drop at 60A works out at about 3.6%,
and anything under 5% is generally considered acceptable. At the OP's distance
of 250' one way, though, he sees a voltage drop of 6% with 6AWG, and he needs
4AWG to get his voltage drop down to 3.8%. It wouldn't hurt for him to go to
3AWG, even, but it's probably not necessary.
>
>>Pull individual conductors through PVC conduit. (Make sure you use actual PVC
>>electrical conduit -- "rigid non-metallic conduit" -- not PVC water pipe.)
>>Minimum burial depth is 18 inches, as long as you're just going under your
>>lawn or a residential driveway. If there's a street or alley in the way, 24
>>inches.
>>
>>You'll need four type THWN conductors: two 4AWG hots (one black, one red is
>>typical), one 4AWG neutral (white or gray), and one 8AWG minimum ground (green
>>or bare). Code permits the grounding conductor to be downsized as far as 10AWG
>>on a 60A circuit, but, again, due to the length of the circuit, bump it up at
>>least one size.
>>
>>Minimum conduit size according to Code is 1". Don't even think about it. Get
>>*at*least* 1-1/2" if you want to be able to pull the wires easily. It will be
>>easier to pull the wires one conduit section at a time as you lay the conduit,
>>rather than trying to pull the whole 250' run at once. Pull boxes every 50'
>>would be a good idea, too.
>
>Would you upsize to 1-1/2 conduit with 3-6AWG and a 10 ground?

No, but I'd go 1-1/4. Code minimum is 3/4 (!). My rule of thumb is to bump two
trade sizes above the minimum: makes it *much* easier to pull the wires, and
provides space for expansion as well, if you decide to upsize the circuit
later, or add a few more.
>
>My run is through attic space for the most part. No underground.

In that case, I'd just use 6-3WG NM ("Romex") cable, and not bother with the
conduit. If the attic is "accessible" (by stairs or permanent ladder), you'll
need to install guard strips next to the cable for protection from damage
wherever it's running across the top of the joists.

>At the point where the run will go from the house to the carport/shop
>complex, there is approximately 1-1/2' of distance. Considering
>weatherproof flexible for this transition. This to avoid tearing out
>the ceiling in a breeze way to run in that ceiling. Any flaws in this
>plan?

No, not really, except that you might have a couple of better alternatives.

Any chance you could fish an NM cable through that breezeway ceiling? Instead
of using a fish tape, try Greenlee "Fish Stix" -- four-foot lengths of
fiberglass rod with threaded connections at the ends, and various hooking and
grabbing tools for catching hold of cables and wires. Great product. Wish I'd
bought a set of those about twenty years ago. (They sell them at Lowe's, if
you're interested -- around forty bucks, IIRC -- and I think I've seen
something similar at HD, too.)

If not, consider that type NMC cable is approved for use in damp locations,
and thus you could do the entire run with that. "Examples of such locations
include partially protected locations under canopies, marquees, ROOFED OPEN
PORCHES, and like locations..." [2005 NEC, Article 100, emphasis added]

>Thanks for all advice

No prob.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:37:24 -0500, "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, Frank Boettcher
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:46:37 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <[email protected]>, sailor
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Sounds like a good plan. 60A service should be more than adequate, unless
>>>>you're planning on a LOT of high-load tools running at once. Normally, a
>>>>60A
>>>>feeder would require a minimum wire size of 6AWG copper, but since it's
>>>>250
>>>>feet away from your panel, you'll want to bump that up to 4AWG.
>>>>
>>>More useful information that is relevant to my current needs.
>>>
>>>On a 150' total point to point run length would you say 6AWG would be
>>>ok.? Local utility not known for running low voltage, and my 120
>>>circuits currently run the same distance to the back wall of the shop
>>>(where the new panel will be) are measuring about 117-117.5V (seems
>>>like they run a little higher in the winter).
>>
>> Yes, you're OK with 6AWG -- the voltage drop at 60A works out at about
>> 3.6%,
>> and anything under 5% is generally considered acceptable. At the OP's
>> distance
>> of 250' one way, though, he sees a voltage drop of 6% with 6AWG, and he
>> needs
>> 4AWG to get his voltage drop down to 3.8%. It wouldn't hurt for him to go
>> to
>> 3AWG, even, but it's probably not necessary.
>>>
>>>>Pull individual conductors through PVC conduit. (Make sure you use actual
>>>>PVC
>>>>electrical conduit -- "rigid non-metallic conduit" -- not PVC water
>>>>pipe.)
>>>>Minimum burial depth is 18 inches, as long as you're just going under
>>>>your
>>>>lawn or a residential driveway. If there's a street or alley in the way,
>>>>24
>>>>inches.
>>>>
>>>>You'll need four type THWN conductors: two 4AWG hots (one black, one red
>>>>is
>>>>typical), one 4AWG neutral (white or gray), and one 8AWG minimum ground
>>>>(green
>>>>or bare). Code permits the grounding conductor to be downsized as far as
>>>>10AWG
>>>>on a 60A circuit, but, again, due to the length of the circuit, bump it
>>>>up at
>>>>least one size.
>>>>
>>>>Minimum conduit size according to Code is 1". Don't even think about it.
>>>>Get
>>>>*at*least* 1-1/2" if you want to be able to pull the wires easily. It
>>>>will be
>>>>easier to pull the wires one conduit section at a time as you lay the
>>>>conduit,
>>>>rather than trying to pull the whole 250' run at once. Pull boxes every
>>>>50'
>>>>would be a good idea, too.
>>>
>>>Would you upsize to 1-1/2 conduit with 3-6AWG and a 10 ground?
>>
>> No, but I'd go 1-1/4. Code minimum is 3/4 (!). My rule of thumb is to bump
>> two
>> trade sizes above the minimum: makes it *much* easier to pull the wires,
>> and
>> provides space for expansion as well, if you decide to upsize the circuit
>> later, or add a few more.
>>>
>>>My run is through attic space for the most part. No underground.
>>
>> In that case, I'd just use 6-3WG NM ("Romex") cable, and not bother with
>> the
>> conduit. If the attic is "accessible" (by stairs or permanent ladder),
>> you'll
>> need to install guard strips next to the cable for protection from damage
>> wherever it's running across the top of the joists.
>>
>>>At the point where the run will go from the house to the carport/shop
>>>complex, there is approximately 1-1/2' of distance. Considering
>>>weatherproof flexible for this transition. This to avoid tearing out
>>>the ceiling in a breeze way to run in that ceiling. Any flaws in this
>>>plan?
>>
>> No, not really, except that you might have a couple of better
>> alternatives.
>>
>> Any chance you could fish an NM cable through that breezeway ceiling?
>> Instead
>> of using a fish tape, try Greenlee "Fish Stix" -- four-foot lengths of
>> fiberglass rod with threaded connections at the ends, and various hooking
>> and
>> grabbing tools for catching hold of cables and wires. Great product. Wish
>> I'd
>> bought a set of those about twenty years ago. (They sell them at Lowe's,
>> if
>> you're interested -- around forty bucks, IIRC -- and I think I've seen
>> something similar at HD, too.)
>>
>> If not, consider that type NMC cable is approved for use in damp
>> locations,
>> and thus you could do the entire run with that. "Examples of such
>> locations
>> include partially protected locations under canopies, marquees, ROOFED
>> OPEN
>> PORCHES, and like locations..." [2005 NEC, Article 100, emphasis added]
>>
>>>Thanks for all advice
>>
>> No prob.
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>>
>> It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
>
>Wouldn't he be better of installing a 100 amp box instead of a 60 amp
>service, or even a 150 amp for possible growth later on?
>
>
One might argue that, but, this is it. I'll move before I expand
again. One man shop. Residential subdivision restricted from
commercial activity.

For seventeen years I've run it on one 30 amp branch feeder split to
two 20's, one for fans and lighting, one for machines (120V), and one
20A 240V circuit with two receptacles. My little expansion will only
add load (diversity factor considered) in that I'm installing dust
collection which will run while any machine is running and some extra
lights and fans.

Connected load will be much greater as I can bring some machines out
of storage, however, in use load will not change much. I've load
studied it and can't see ever getting over 45A, even If I invite a
friend over to work with me. (done that before, never dimmed the
lights).


And copper is expensive.

Frank
>
>

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 21:42:39 GMT, Lew Hodgett
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Frank Boettcher wrote:
>
> > And copper is expensive.
>
>And so are line losses.
>
>They are the hidden penalty you pay forever because you want to save a
>few $ at installation time.
>
>Many of my contractor customers would size for minimum line drop using
>copper, then upgrade a size and use aluminum for feeders.
>
>Terminate aluminum properly and you have no problems.
>
>Don't terminate aluminum properly and you have BIG problems.
>
>Lew
>


Lew, I think you missed the point. This is a conversation about
whether I install a properly sized 60 amp service to provide for what
will normally be far less than 60 amp demand, or whether I bump up to
100 amp or 150 amp service to provide for what will normally be far
less than 60 amp demand. Whether copper or aluminum, the overkill
does not make sense.

Frank

In article <[email protected]>, sailor <[email protected]> wrote:
>I am thinking of running underground wiring out to the garage that is
>250' from the elec. panel on the house.
>
>My question is, what type and size wire to use?

Depends on how heavy a load you're intending to support. If you're planning a
fully-equipped shop with, say, a 3HP table saw, dust collection, a 5HP air
compressor, and an arc welder, you'll need much heavier wire than if you just
need a few outlets for a circular saw, a portable drill, and a radio.
>
>My idea was a 220 line to a panel in the garage, where I could have
>110 and 220 breakers.

Sounds like a good plan. 60A service should be more than adequate, unless
you're planning on a LOT of high-load tools running at once. Normally, a 60A
feeder would require a minimum wire size of 6AWG copper, but since it's 250
feet away from your panel, you'll want to bump that up to 4AWG.

Pull individual conductors through PVC conduit. (Make sure you use actual PVC
electrical conduit -- "rigid non-metallic conduit" -- not PVC water pipe.)
Minimum burial depth is 18 inches, as long as you're just going under your
lawn or a residential driveway. If there's a street or alley in the way, 24
inches.

You'll need four type THWN conductors: two 4AWG hots (one black, one red is
typical), one 4AWG neutral (white or gray), and one 8AWG minimum ground (green
or bare). Code permits the grounding conductor to be downsized as far as 10AWG
on a 60A circuit, but, again, due to the length of the circuit, bump it up at
least one size.

Minimum conduit size according to Code is 1". Don't even think about it. Get
*at*least* 1-1/2" if you want to be able to pull the wires easily. It will be
easier to pull the wires one conduit section at a time as you lay the conduit,
rather than trying to pull the whole 250' run at once. Pull boxes every 50'
would be a good idea, too.

In the main panel, connect the two hot wires (red & black) to the poles of a
60A double-pole breaker, the neutral (white) to the neutral bus bar, and the
ground (green or bare) to the ground bus bar.

In your panel at the garage, make sure that the neutral and ground bus bars
are **NOT** connected to each other. They're required to be connected in the
main panel, and required to be separate everywhere else. Connect the two hot
conductors to the lugs on the main breaker, the neutral to the neutral bus
bar (that's the one that's insulated from the panel), and the ground to the
ground bus bar (that's the one that's *not* insulated from the panel).

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.