Howdy, all. Me again. A question about final sanding this time. I
sand my projects (well, the surfaces that are likely to be touched) to
400 grit before I stain/poly them. Is this overkill? Will the poly
fill in a rougher surface and still have the same smoothness? Will
sanding the wood to 200+, then smoothing the poly with 300/400 produce
the same result?
Brian
"Larry Jaques" <jake@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 12:39:42 -0700, "George M. Kazaka"
> <[email protected]> pixelated:
>
> >
> >"Larry Jaques" <jake@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> On 2 Oct 2003 22:49:03 -0700, [email protected] (Brian
> >> Phillips) pixelated:
> >>
> >> >Howdy, all. Me again. A question about final sanding this time. I
> >> >sand my projects (well, the surfaces that are likely to be touched) to
> >> >400 grit before I stain/poly them. Is this overkill? Will the poly
> >> >fill in a rougher surface and still have the same smoothness? Will
> >> >sanding the wood to 200+, then smoothing the poly with 300/400 produce
> >> >the same result?
> >>
> >> If you're just going to stain and poly them, why bother
> >> to sand them at all?
> >>
> >> C'mon Larry even though I am ROTFLMAO, isn't that a little cruel
>
> Why would you say that to me and not him, George?
> Staining and polying otherwise decent, unsuspecting wood?
> He's the one who's cruel.
>
> Heck, I wouldn't even condone treating -pineywood- that
> harshly.
Well Larry to a certain degree I agree with you, that is with the poly not
staining,
Yes the woodis beautiful in its natural state, so was the tree before we
cust it down to make something elso of it.
I have seen posts here about the objection to stain and there is a few woods
that i do not ever like stained but there are times when the natural color
just does not do it.
That said which i have the feeling is going to cause another backlash.
I'm a pro and have had hundreds of guys work for me over the years and have
taught as many many differant things.
As their Employer when working I would never object to telling someone they
screwed up. Have been know to pick cabinets up and throw them at a cemment
block when I was younger.( Damn did I really do that)
Because the quality of the work did not stand up to that man's potential.
But one thing I would never do is to break down a mans pride in his
personall accomplishments.
We all have differant levels of skills and knowledge and each one of us has
a differant level of proudful accomplishments.
Woodworking is a labor of love Always has been Always will be.
I've been at it for 48 years and I live by the statement that I do not work,
I happen to do something I love and have been very fortunate to be able to
make a living at it. Have turned out some good stufff and my share of crap
also.
So when one of you is at home in your Garage workshop Hand planing and hand
dovetailing and nailing things together and slapping Black ink on it because
you heard somewhere this makes the wood darker and then you preserve that
peice with
"Poly" Unsaturated Motor Oil #30 weight of course.
Walked out of that garage door with a head as big as the goodyear Blimp
proud of what you have accomplished.
WELL what can I say isn't that what it is all about ??
Hmmmm !!!!! Black Ink haven't tried that one yet. Hmmmm !!!!
I have looked at many peice's of shit IMHO,
and never once would I take the glow in the presenters eye away from them.
Therefore henceforth My remark to your remark.
Good Luck,
George
On 2 Oct 2003 22:49:03 -0700, [email protected] (Brian
Phillips) wrote:
>Howdy, all. Me again. A question about final sanding this time. I
>sand my projects (well, the surfaces that are likely to be touched) to
>400 grit before I stain/poly them. Is this overkill? Will the poly
>fill in a rougher surface and still have the same smoothness? Will
>sanding the wood to 200+, then smoothing the poly with 300/400 produce
>the same result?
I rarely go past 180 and don't remember ever going past 220, simply
because you'll never know the difference once it's stained/polyed.
You get to a point of diminishing returns around 220 grit.
Brian Phillips wrote:
> Howdy, all. Me again. A question about final sanding this time. I
> sand my projects (well, the surfaces that are likely to be touched) to
> 400 grit before I stain/poly them. Is this overkill? Will the poly
> fill in a rougher surface and still have the same smoothness? Will
> sanding the wood to 200+, then smoothing the poly with 300/400 produce
> the same result?
>
> Brian
In general, if you will be applying a film finish sanding beyond 220 is a
waste of time. For an oil finish I'll often sand to 600/800. For small
object that will be handled and viewed closely such as pens, I've gone
beyond 1200.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 12:37:10 -0700, "George M. Kazaka"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Personal Choice, I would never use poly on wood It was a junk finish when it
>was invented and still is now,
>Serves absolutely no purpose to good woodworking.
I've had excellent results with wiped on poly, cut 50/50 with mineral
spirits. I usually prefer shellac or an oil/varnish mix, but I use
the wiping poly when I need a really tough finish. I know it's not
easily repairable, but it usually holds up better in the first place.
I have some pieces that knowledgeable folks have not been able to
guess it's a poly finish.
Barry
I cannot remember when I have used anything past 180.
"Brian Phillips" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Howdy, all. Me again. A question about final sanding this time. I
> sand my projects (well, the surfaces that are likely to be touched) to
> 400 grit before I stain/poly them. Is this overkill? Will the poly
> fill in a rougher surface and still have the same smoothness? Will
> sanding the wood to 200+, then smoothing the poly with 300/400 produce
> the same result?
>
> Brian
> Any Sanding past 180 to 200 on raw wood is a waste of time and sandpaper,
> there is no benifit to the final finish whatsoever
> it does not harm anything at all either.
>
> It is the finish and what you do to it that gives that final feel, now here
> you can sand down to your hearts content
But if it's an oil finish (granted the OP was talking about poly),
where there wouldn't be any buildup, then it would seem to me that you
would have a benefit to sanding with a finer grit.
While a lot depends upon the type of wood and the choice of finish, I
routinely take those projects that are going to have a hand rubbed oil
finish to 320 grit. Having stopped at 180 on some projects, and gone to 320
on others, I suspect from my experience doing this that anyone who says
there is no difference is probably not speaking from a great deal of
practical experience.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03
"Larry Bud" wrote in message
> > Any Sanding past 180 to 200 on raw wood is a waste of time and
sandpaper,
> > there is no benifit to the final finish whatsoever
> > it does not harm anything at all either.
> >
> > It is the finish and what you do to it that gives that final feel, now
here
> > you can sand down to your hearts content
>
> But if it's an oil finish (granted the OP was talking about poly),
> where there wouldn't be any buildup, then it would seem to me that you
> would have a benefit to sanding with a finer grit.
On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 07:33:06 -0700, "George M. Kazaka" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Any Sanding past 180 to 200 on raw wood is a waste of time and sandpaper,
>there is no benifit to the final finish whatsoever
>it does not harm anything at all either.
I don't agree. the wood looks better. if the wood has figure it really looks
better. depending on the sandpaper some if it burnishes the wood better and that
looks nicer. if you use a oil and a wax it even makes a bigger difference.
now if you plane the wood it will look even better. but sanding to a finer
grit will get it close to the look of hand planing.
--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.
"Larry Bud" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > Any Sanding past 180 to 200 on raw wood is a waste of time and
sandpaper,
> > there is no benifit to the final finish whatsoever
> > it does not harm anything at all either.
> >
> > It is the finish and what you do to it that gives that final feel, now
here
> > you can sand down to your hearts content
>
> But if it's an oil finish (granted the OP was talking about poly),
> where there wouldn't be any buildup, then it would seem to me that you
> would have a benefit to sanding with a finer grit.
Personal Choice, I would never use poly on wood It was a junk finish when it
was invented and still is now,
Serves absolutely no purpose to good woodworking.
How many on the group are always writing in about the problems they
encounter with Poly,
How many I ask have not had to sand it or used steel wool to smooth it out,
so what was the sense of of sanding past 200 for
Also remember Wood is wood , it is not a stable substance, It moves it,
always moves everything in the worls affects its movements.
every type of liquid will raise its grain no matter how fine it was sanded,
I know this is going to inflame a lot of you, Not my intention,
everyone will do things the way they feel the best,
I said the fine sanding would not harn anything but it does affect the
amount of stain the wood will naturally absorb
I ask this of this entire group that from what I have read here a lot of use
use hand scrapers & hand planes,
How do you sand ?????with a ROS ?????? Be honest
One of the worst inventions ever made to sand wood with, Convenient Yes,
Less laborious yes.
The absolute best way to sand wood is by hand, with the grain of course.
Yes I use ROS, But do on certain pcs resort to total hand sanding,
And truth be known very rarely over 150 on raw wood and I will stand my work
up with anyones.
Now where the hell did I put the damn flame jacket.<G>
Good Luck
George
Sam Maloof Is nothing but a Commercial Enterprise
"Norm Underwood" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "George M. Kazaka" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Larry Bud" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > > Any Sanding past 180 to 200 on raw wood is a waste of time and
> > sandpaper,
> > > > there is no benifit to the final finish whatsoever
> > > > it does not harm anything at all either.
> > > >
> > > > It is the finish and what you do to it that gives that final feel,
> now
> > here
> > > > you can sand down to your hearts content
> > >
> > > But if it's an oil finish (granted the OP was talking about poly),
> > > where there wouldn't be any buildup, then it would seem to me that
> you
> > > would have a benefit to sanding with a finer grit.
> >
> > Personal Choice, I would never use poly on wood It was a junk finish
> when it
> > was invented and still is now,
> > Serves absolutely no purpose to good woodworking.
>
>
> Yeah, that ol' Sam Maloof must be a real hack with his use of poly and
> all.
>
>
>
"George M. Kazaka" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Larry Bud" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > > Any Sanding past 180 to 200 on raw wood is a waste of time and
> sandpaper,
> > > there is no benifit to the final finish whatsoever
> > > it does not harm anything at all either.
> > >
> > > It is the finish and what you do to it that gives that final feel,
now
> here
> > > you can sand down to your hearts content
> >
> > But if it's an oil finish (granted the OP was talking about poly),
> > where there wouldn't be any buildup, then it would seem to me that
you
> > would have a benefit to sanding with a finer grit.
>
> Personal Choice, I would never use poly on wood It was a junk finish
when it
> was invented and still is now,
> Serves absolutely no purpose to good woodworking.
Yeah, that ol' Sam Maloof must be a real hack with his use of poly and
all.
Hate to buck the conventional wisdom here, but I think you are spot on.
I usually sand to the same level. I can clearly feel the difference
after finishing. I have not had any problems with finish "sticking" to
finely sanded wood. I usually work in oak and walnut. It may make no
difference in a project that is never touched, but I feel it is
essential to sand to 400 grit if anyone is going to handle the wood. It
just feels better.
Bill
Brian Phillips wrote:
> Howdy, all. Me again. A question about final sanding this time. I
> sand my projects (well, the surfaces that are likely to be touched) to
> 400 grit before I stain/poly them. Is this overkill? Will the poly
> fill in a rougher surface and still have the same smoothness? Will
> sanding the wood to 200+, then smoothing the poly with 300/400 produce
> the same result?
>
> Brian
220 is fine
--
Rumpty
Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Brian Phillips" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Howdy, all. Me again. A question about final sanding this time. I
> sand my projects (well, the surfaces that are likely to be touched) to
> 400 grit before I stain/poly them. Is this overkill? Will the poly
> fill in a rougher surface and still have the same smoothness? Will
> sanding the wood to 200+, then smoothing the poly with 300/400 produce
> the same result?
>
> Brian
"Larry Jaques" <jake@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2 Oct 2003 22:49:03 -0700, [email protected] (Brian
> Phillips) pixelated:
>
> >Howdy, all. Me again. A question about final sanding this time. I
> >sand my projects (well, the surfaces that are likely to be touched) to
> >400 grit before I stain/poly them. Is this overkill? Will the poly
> >fill in a rougher surface and still have the same smoothness? Will
> >sanding the wood to 200+, then smoothing the poly with 300/400 produce
> >the same result?
>
> If you're just going to stain and poly them, why bother
> to sand them at all?
>
> C'mon Larry even though I am ROTFLMAO, isn't that a little cruel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (Uh, huh. Saw me coming, eh?)
>
Many finish product manufacturers only specify sanding up to 240 grit, with
some even saying you only need to go up to 180. I suggest that you would
only need to go to 240 and maybe less if you use a grain sealer to level off
the surface. You don't want it glass-smooth or what will the finish stick
to?
"Brian Phillips" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Howdy, all. Me again. A question about final sanding this time. I
> sand my projects (well, the surfaces that are likely to be touched) to
> 400 grit before I stain/poly them. Is this overkill? Will the poly
> fill in a rougher surface and still have the same smoothness? Will
> sanding the wood to 200+, then smoothing the poly with 300/400 produce
> the same result?
>
> Brian
"Steve Knight" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
| On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 07:33:06 -0700, "George M. Kazaka" <[email protected]>
| wrote:
|
| >Any Sanding past 180 to 200 on raw wood is a waste of time and sandpaper,
| >there is no benifit to the final finish whatsoever
| >it does not harm anything at all either.
|
| I don't agree.
Neither do I. I've been told many things by many people, mostly what has
already been said here.
There is no rule. You should use your best judgment, bolstered by
experience, based on the species and condition of the wood, the intended
finish, and the intended use.
For polyurethane, lacquer, or other relatively thick finishes there's not
much of a difference if you sand past 220. By the time you have your final
finish, the texture of the underlying wood is largely covered by the finish
anyway. For oils, waxes, and other thin finishes, the texture of the wood
becomes more important to the final smoothness.
In general, the harder and more closed-grained the wood, the more benefit
you get from sanding to higher grits. I don't sand soft woods beyond 220.
But I sand hard maples and other woods to 400 or 600 for pieces I know will
be picked up and handled. Woodworkers whose hardwood work I admire sand up
to 800 or sometimes four-digit grits.
"B a r r y B u r k e J r ." <[email protected]> wrote
in message news:[email protected]...
|
| I've had excellent results with wiped on poly, cut 50/50 with mineral
| spirits.
Me too. I use Old Dad's wipe-on polyurethane, thinned just a bit.
| I usually prefer shellac or an oil/varnish mix
I'm still working getting good results with shellac, but I also use
varnishes when I'm in the mood. I've never tried an oil/varnish mix, but
now I'm intrigued. I've used Resistovar with good results, but you can only
get it in bulk so unless you're a professional it's best to go in with like
ten people on an order.
The local unfinished furniture guys recommend putting on Old Dad's with a
foam brush, but I've never had pleasing results with anything I've put on
with a foam brush. Foam brushes, I'm convinced, are tools of the devil.
But I get good results wiping it on with cotton rags.
The people who try to wave me off of polyurethane have typically been the
advocates of rubbing out film finishes, and poly doesn't rub as well as a
varnish. I think a lot of backlash against polyurethane comes from the
truly atrocious formulations commonly available that muck up everything they
touch. I tried a lot of formulas before I settled on Old Dad's, and I'm
sure there are even better formulas out there.
On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 07:33:06 -0700, "George M. Kazaka"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Any Sanding past 180 to 200 on raw wood is a waste of time and sandpaper,
>there is no benifit to the final finish whatsoever
I always have gone to 180, with 220 on end grain, with pretty good
results. I'm in the middle of a local Woodcraft finishing class
taught by a 20+ year RPM employee (Think Behlens and Zinsser, among
others).
He recommends stopping at 120, except for end grain or oil finishes.
The hands on part of the class has me agreeing with him.
Barry
On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 07:54:56 -0700, "George M. Kazaka"
<[email protected]> pixelated:
>But one thing I would never do is to break down a mans pride in his
>personall accomplishments.
-snip-
>I have looked at many peice's of shit IMHO,
>and never once would I take the glow in the presenters eye away from them.
>
>Therefore henceforth My remark to your remark.
If asking him "why sand if you stain/poly?" is breaking
down a man's pride in his personal accomplishments,
I stand guilty as charged, but I COULDN'T have taken
the presenter's glow away because he hasn't even put a
finish on it yet. (Nor would I in person. I usually just
shut up if I don't have anything good to say.)
Anyway, I suppose I was attempting to make him rethink
his processes so we could all be proud of his work.
.-.
Life is short. Eat dessert first!
---
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development
On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 12:39:42 -0700, "George M. Kazaka"
<[email protected]> pixelated:
>
>"Larry Jaques" <jake@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On 2 Oct 2003 22:49:03 -0700, [email protected] (Brian
>> Phillips) pixelated:
>>
>> >Howdy, all. Me again. A question about final sanding this time. I
>> >sand my projects (well, the surfaces that are likely to be touched) to
>> >400 grit before I stain/poly them. Is this overkill? Will the poly
>> >fill in a rougher surface and still have the same smoothness? Will
>> >sanding the wood to 200+, then smoothing the poly with 300/400 produce
>> >the same result?
>>
>> If you're just going to stain and poly them, why bother
>> to sand them at all?
>>
>> C'mon Larry even though I am ROTFLMAO, isn't that a little cruel
Why would you say that to me and not him, George?
Staining and polying otherwise decent, unsuspecting wood?
He's the one who's cruel.
Heck, I wouldn't even condone treating -pineywood- that
harshly.
>Yeah, that ol' Sam Maloof must be a real hack with his use of poly and
>all.
>
>
He uses tung and linseed and poly in equal amounts. far different then straight
poly.
--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.
Have read many posts warning about sanding past #xxx IF pigment stain
is going to be used.
On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 07:33:06 -0700, "George M. Kazaka"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>there is no benifit to the final finish whatsoever
>it does not harm anything at all either.
On 2 Oct 2003 22:49:03 -0700, [email protected] (Brian
Phillips) pixelated:
>Howdy, all. Me again. A question about final sanding this time. I
>sand my projects (well, the surfaces that are likely to be touched) to
>400 grit before I stain/poly them. Is this overkill? Will the poly
>fill in a rougher surface and still have the same smoothness? Will
>sanding the wood to 200+, then smoothing the poly with 300/400 produce
>the same result?
If you're just going to stain and poly them, why bother
to sand them at all?
(Uh, huh. Saw me coming, eh?)
Only if you clean the dust from the pores afterward. Else, you have on a
micro scale what you see when you use wood putty to cover nail holes.
BTW, you can burnish the wood without sandpaper, too.
"Steve Knight" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 07:33:06 -0700, "George M. Kazaka" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Any Sanding past 180 to 200 on raw wood is a waste of time and sandpaper,
> >there is no benifit to the final finish whatsoever
> >it does not harm anything at all either.
>
> I don't agree. the wood looks better. if the wood has figure it really
looks
> better. depending on the sandpaper some if it burnishes the wood better
and that
> looks nicer. if you use a oil and a wax it even makes a bigger difference.
> now if you plane the wood it will look even better. but sanding to a
finer
> grit will get it close to the look of hand planing.
>
Any Sanding past 180 to 200 on raw wood is a waste of time and sandpaper,
there is no benifit to the final finish whatsoever
it does not harm anything at all either.
It is the finish and what you do to it that gives that final feel, now here
you can sand down to your hearts content
Good luck,
George
"William R. Woods" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hate to buck the conventional wisdom here, but I think you are spot on.
> I usually sand to the same level. I can clearly feel the difference
> after finishing. I have not had any problems with finish "sticking" to
> finely sanded wood. I usually work in oak and walnut. It may make no
> difference in a project that is never touched, but I feel it is
> essential to sand to 400 grit if anyone is going to handle the wood. It
> just feels better.
>
> Bill
>
> Brian Phillips wrote:
> > Howdy, all. Me again. A question about final sanding this time. I
> > sand my projects (well, the surfaces that are likely to be touched) to
> > 400 grit before I stain/poly them. Is this overkill? Will the poly
> > fill in a rougher surface and still have the same smoothness? Will
> > sanding the wood to 200+, then smoothing the poly with 300/400 produce
> > the same result?
> >
> > Brian
>